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Bad news for the we want Boris back crew – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited November 2023 in General
Bad news for the we want Boris back crew – politicalbetting.com

In his personal notes, Sir Patrick Vallance said former Prime Minister Boris Johnson was "clearly bamboozled" during a meeting over schools during the pandemic.He adds Johnson "struggled" with some of the scientific concepts presented to him.https://t.co/AOGNyTKhTo?Sky 501 pic.twitter.com/W7AZuenxer

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  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited November 2023
    Primus inter pares.

    Boris Johnson reminds me of Crassus at Carrhae but without the wealth.
  • Options
    FPT but more relevant to this one:

    Vallance's diary confirms my deep suspicion that Johnson is completely innumerate. I've always believed that this is why Johnson lies - he genuinely has no concept of quantitative differences and so all answers to a question are equally true to him.
    It is still genuinely shocking to me what posh white men can get away with in this country.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,844
    Off Topic

    Israel Defense Forces
    @IDF
    ·
    1h
    "As the world celebrates #WorldChildrensDay , 40 children are being held hostage by terrorists in Gaza.

    Children who had their innocence ripped away from them."


    Rest of the World

    As the world celebrates #InternationalChildrensDay, 500-700 children are being held hostage yearly in illegal detention by Israel.

    Children who had their innocence ripped away from them.

    And
    As the world celebrates #InternationalChildrensDay over 4,000 children have been killed by Israel in the last month.

    Not only have they had their innocence ripped away from them they are f*****g dead slaughtered by the @IDF

    #ceasefirenow
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,844
    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.
  • Options

    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.

    Good.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,124
    edited November 2023

    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.

    And other than handwringing and virtue signalling, what will that actually achieve?

    This is where Phillips was foolish last week. She sacrificed some excellent work on UK women's rights for something of no realistic benefit to the people of Gaza, because Bibi couldn't give two hoots about what some gobby Brummie thinks.
  • Options
    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,947

    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.

    And other than handwringing and virtue signalling, what will that actually achieve?

    This is where Phillips was foolish last week. She sacrificed some excellent work on UK women's rights for something of no realistic benefit to the people of Gaza, because Bibi couldn't give two hoots about what some gobby Brummie thinks.
    I think in the case of Phillips and co they sacrificed a few things now for an easy election campaign come the next election
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,161
    Many people do struggle with logic and numbers. They're a bit harder to master than words.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993
    kinabalu said:

    Many people do struggle with logic and numbers. They're a bit harder to master than words.

    Everything you say, Mr Retired Accountant, shows that not to be the case
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.

    They want a cessation of hostilities against Michael Matheson?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
  • Options

    FPT but more relevant to this one:

    Vallance's diary confirms my deep suspicion that Johnson is completely innumerate. I've always believed that this is why Johnson lies - he genuinely has no concept of quantitative differences and so all answers to a question are equally true to him.
    It is still genuinely shocking to me what posh white men can get away with in this country.

    I think that’s giving him too much credit. He lies to get out of trouble. He doesnt like scrutiny or being disliked. He’s just a chancer, at the very heart of it.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    Doesn't the use of the quotation 'alea iacta est' - in its meaning or at least the historical context of the crossing of the Rubicon - mean that Mr Johnson is still very much in the game? Which wasn't intended?

    Caesar didn't actually get to see the number and whether it beat Pompey till the battle fo Pharsalus, so to speak.
  • Options
    eek said:

    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.

    And other than handwringing and virtue signalling, what will that actually achieve?

    This is where Phillips was foolish last week. She sacrificed some excellent work on UK women's rights for something of no realistic benefit to the people of Gaza, because Bibi couldn't give two hoots about what some gobby Brummie thinks.
    I think in the case of Phillips and co they sacrificed a few things now for an easy election campaign come the next election
    Nothing stopping Starmer reappointing them after the election, too.
  • Options
    Carnyx said:

    Doesn't the use of the quotation 'alea iacta est' - in its meaning or at least the historical context of the crossing of the Rubicon - mean that Mr Johnson is still very much in the game? Which wasn't intended?

    Caesar didn't actually get to see the number and whether it beat Pompey till the battle fo Pharsalus, so to speak.

    It is meant to be read in conjunction with latter part of paragraph 2 of the thread header.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635

    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.

    They want a cessation of hostilities against Michael Matheson?
    It's also notably asn example of Slab trying to adopt SNP policies to survive, and **** the Union (at least where the Labour Party is concerned) and SKS.

    As there is n o separate Scottish Labour Party in reality (vide EC), this means that a large province of the Labour Party is declaring rebellion under its uneasy satrap. Yet the money is still controlled from London.

    Doublethink.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,614
    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    It is like a never ending record with just 6 tracks.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    edited November 2023

    Carnyx said:

    Doesn't the use of the quotation 'alea iacta est' - in its meaning or at least the historical context of the crossing of the Rubicon - mean that Mr Johnson is still very much in the game? Which wasn't intended?

    Caesar didn't actually get to see the number and whether it beat Pompey till the battle fo Pharsalus, so to speak.

    It is meant to be read in conjunction with latter part of paragraph 2 of the thread header.
    Thanks! I did wonder if you were using it ironically there, but thought you'd not want to. For some reason. Probably cos it came over as your rather than his speech.
  • Options

    FPT but more relevant to this one:

    Vallance's diary confirms my deep suspicion that Johnson is completely innumerate. I've always believed that this is why Johnson lies - he genuinely has no concept of quantitative differences and so all answers to a question are equally true to him.
    It is still genuinely shocking to me what posh white men can get away with in this country.

    I think that’s giving him too much credit. He lies to get out of trouble. He doesnt like scrutiny or being disliked. He’s just a chancer, at the very heart of it.
    And that's why he's a wordsmith- and a pretty effective one when he can be bothered. Because with words, you can use all the tricks of rhetoric to get your way.

    In maths or science, that doesn't work- not indefinitely, anyway. You can raise your voice, play the man not the ball as much as you like... And still, it moves. Or not, as the case may be. But there's a reality we can't fully control, only describe.

    The realisation of that sends some people potty. They either hate the boffins, or elevate them into wizards. Sometimes both.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,124
    ...
    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Oh no, not the lab leak again. And all after holiday snaps, Liz Truss's S&M necklace, "what three words" and AI.

    Today we celebrate all of Leon's greatest hits. A bit like Leon's version of the Beatles Red and Blue albums.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993

    ...

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Oh no, not the lab leak again. And all after holiday snaps, Liz Truss's S&M necklace, "what three words" and AI.

    Today we celebrate all of Leon's greatest hits. A bit like Leon's version of the Beatles Red and Blue albums.
    The weird thing is, you all know my tracks. My greatest hits. See @kjh above

    Yet I can’t name any of yours. Not one. And I bet no one else can, either

    You are like formless shades in an ether, you come and go and no one cares, and when you are gone no one will notice



  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,614

    ...

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Oh no, not the lab leak again. And all after holiday snaps, Liz Truss's S&M necklace, "what three words" and AI.

    Today we celebrate all of Leon's greatest hits. A bit like Leon's version of the Beatles Red and Blue albums.
    I beat you to it but I wasn't as eloquent.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993
    kjh said:

    ...

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Oh no, not the lab leak again. And all after holiday snaps, Liz Truss's S&M necklace, "what three words" and AI.

    Today we celebrate all of Leon's greatest hits. A bit like Leon's version of the Beatles Red and Blue albums.
    I beat you to it but I wasn't as eloquent.
    Neither was he
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,499
    Sadly, that Boris Johnson struggle with math and science doesn't surprise me, since I have seen similar struggles in so many American politicians.

    (This will distress some, but it is consistent with my own observations: In the 2004, George W. Bush (Harvard MBA) did better with those who made their living with numbers, John Kerry (Yale BA) did better with those who made their living with words.)
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,614
    Leon said:

    ...

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Oh no, not the lab leak again. And all after holiday snaps, Liz Truss's S&M necklace, "what three words" and AI.

    Today we celebrate all of Leon's greatest hits. A bit like Leon's version of the Beatles Red and Blue albums.
    The weird thing is, you all know my tracks. My greatest hits. See @kjh above

    Yet I can’t name any of yours. Not one. And I bet no one else can, either

    You are like formless shades in an ether, you come and go and no one cares, and when you are gone no one will notice



    Could it possibly be, you know just a thought, that we don't bang on about them endlessly.

    Or possibly because we remember the really mad stuff.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,161
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Many people do struggle with logic and numbers. They're a bit harder to master than words.

    Everything you say, Mr Retired Accountant, shows that not to be the case
    No need for that. My (on topic) point is, it's relatively easy to attain a facility with words good enough to bullshit and deceive the unwary. Examples of this abound. But it's different with 'hard' (as in rigorous) disciplines like logic and numbers. Lightweights and chancers are soon exposed when they stray into areas requiring those abilities.

    We could do worse than having all the party leaders sit some sort of Maths test when there's a general election with the results to be made public before polling day. If we'd done that in Dec 2019 it would have weeded out Boris Johnson and our pandemic response could have been led by somebody who could do add, takeaway, multiply and divide.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited November 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Doesn't the use of the quotation 'alea iacta est' - in its meaning or at least the historical context of the crossing of the Rubicon - mean that Mr Johnson is still very much in the game? Which wasn't intended?

    Caesar didn't actually get to see the number and whether it beat Pompey till the battle fo Pharsalus, so to speak.

    It is meant to be read in conjunction with latter part of paragraph 2 of the thread header.
    Thanks! I did wonder if you were using it ironically there, but thought you'd not want to. For some reason. Probably cos it came over as your rather than his speech.
    It’s just me being my usual subtle, modest self.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386
    I'm not denying that Boris isn't exactly God's gift to hard science, but the testimony of Patrick Vallance - who hardly covered himself in glory in the pandemic with his grasp of the modelling - isn't actually as damning as all that.
    When we get the views of someone who actually called some of it right, it'll be worth listening to.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ...

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Oh no, not the lab leak again. And all after holiday snaps, Liz Truss's S&M necklace, "what three words" and AI.

    Today we celebrate all of Leon's greatest hits. A bit like Leon's version of the Beatles Red and Blue albums.
    The weird thing is, you all know my tracks. My greatest hits. See @kjh above

    Yet I can’t name any of yours. Not one. And I bet no one else can, either

    You are like formless shades in an ether, you come and go and no one cares, and when you are gone no one will notice



    Could it possibly be, you know just a thought, that we don't bang on about them endlessly.

    Or possibly because we remember the really mad stuff.
    You’ve made 10,000 comments. I honestly cannot recall a single point you’ve made, a witticism essayed, a fresh idea introduced, a new concept discussed, not anything. Nothing of value, intelligence or memorability have you ever introduced to a discussion

    10,000 comments, all pointless

    If I am a series of well known songs on a much heard album, you are the hiss of white noise between the tracks

  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504
    Carnyx said:

    Doesn't the use of the quotation 'alea iacta est' - in its meaning or at least the historical context of the crossing of the Rubicon - mean that Mr Johnson is still very much in the game? Which wasn't intended?

    Caesar didn't actually get to see the number and whether it beat Pompey till the battle fo Pharsalus, so to speak.

    Pedantically, it is a bit ambiguous. The die is cast might mean: I have taken the action so that this thing is going ahead, let us see how the die that is now falling falls and so what the result is

    or

    I have taken the action - thrown the dice - and the settled result is that there will be conflict.

    BTW there is always someone worse off than yourself. Boris is not yet Valerian, though a quick trip to Iran or Gaza might get him there.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,842
    Carnyx said:

    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.

    They want a cessation of hostilities against Michael Matheson?
    It's also notably asn example of Slab trying to adopt SNP policies to survive, and **** the Union (at least where the Labour Party is concerned) and SKS.

    As there is n o separate Scottish Labour Party in reality (vide EC), this means that a large province of the Labour Party is declaring rebellion under its uneasy satrap. Yet the money is still controlled from London.

    Doublethink.
    bunch of useless arse licking sockpuppets.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Many people do struggle with logic and numbers. They're a bit harder to master than words.

    Everything you say, Mr Retired Accountant, shows that not to be the case
    No need for that. My (on topic) point is, it's relatively easy to attain a facility with words good enough to bullshit and deceive the unwary. Examples of this abound. But it's different with 'hard' (as in rigorous) disciplines like logic and numbers. Lightweights and chancers are soon exposed when they stray into areas requiring those abilities.

    We could do worse than having all the party leaders sit some sort of Maths test when there's a general election with the results to be made public before polling day. If we'd done that in Dec 2019 it would have weeded out Boris Johnson and our pandemic response could have been led by somebody who could do add, takeaway, multiply and divide.
    Exponential. Lethal. Especially when not grasped.
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,499
    FPT: Paying for children is common in much of the world. "Private" adoptions in the US often include large payments to the mother of the child.

    At one time the US was "buying" large numbers of baby girls from China, though of course few were so crass as to describe that as baby selling.
    https://www.internationaladoptionhelp.com/international_adoption/international_adoption_china_costs_fees.htm#:~:text=This fee fluctuates because it,$17,000 to $27,000 including travel.

    There are many other examples, but those should be enough to show the practice, whatever you think of it -- and I am not a fan -- is not just a weird idea dreamed up by an Argentine politiican.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504
    Leon said:

    ...

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Oh no, not the lab leak again. And all after holiday snaps, Liz Truss's S&M necklace, "what three words" and AI.

    Today we celebrate all of Leon's greatest hits. A bit like Leon's version of the Beatles Red and Blue albums.
    The weird thing is, you all know my tracks. My greatest hits. See @kjh above

    Yet I can’t name any of yours. Not one. And I bet no one else can, either

    You are like formless shades in an ether, you come and go and no one cares, and when you are gone no one will notice



    Myself when young did eagerly frequent
    Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument
    About it and about: but evermore
    Came out of the same door as in I went.
  • Options
    On topic. It's worth noting that all the extremely high IQ people on SAGE never recommended a lockdown prior to it being introduced.

    Being clever is no guarantee of being able to take the right decisions - or being able to take them at the right time.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    Leon said:

    ...

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Oh no, not the lab leak again. And all after holiday snaps, Liz Truss's S&M necklace, "what three words" and AI.

    Today we celebrate all of Leon's greatest hits. A bit like Leon's version of the Beatles Red and Blue albums.
    The weird thing is, you all know my tracks. My greatest hits. See @kjh above

    Yet I can’t name any of yours. Not one. And I bet no one else can, either

    You are like formless shades in an ether, you come and go and no one cares, and when you are gone no one will notice



    Hmm, are you claiming to be Aeneas on his travels, visaiting Hell?
    circumstant animae dextra laevaque frequentes,
    nec vidisse semel satis est; iuvat usque morari
    et conferre gradum et veniendi discere causas.

    Around him left and right the crowding shades
    Not only once would see, but clutch and cling
    Obstructive, asking on what quest he goes.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,279
    I'd rather have had Boris in charge of Covid than most any other politician I can think of.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Many people do struggle with logic and numbers. They're a bit harder to master than words.

    Everything you say, Mr Retired Accountant, shows that not to be the case
    No need for that. My (on topic) point is, it's relatively easy to attain a facility with words good enough to bullshit and deceive the unwary. Examples of this abound. But it's different with 'hard' (as in rigorous) disciplines like logic and numbers. Lightweights and chancers are soon exposed when they stray into areas requiring those abilities.

    We could do worse than having all the party leaders sit some sort of Maths test when there's a general election with the results to be made public before polling day. If we'd done that in Dec 2019 it would have weeded out Boris Johnson and our pandemic response could have been led by somebody who could do add, takeaway, multiply and divide.
    You think Corbyn's calculus would have dazzled the nation?
  • Options

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    If that's what he believed then he's a piss-poor scientist and a worse government advisor.

    Independent, rigorous evidence is - unsurprisingly - difficult to collate in China on a subject as sensitive as this. Indeed, short of a rapid regime change where they don't have chance to destroy the evidence, we'll probably never know.

    But both lab-leak and species-mutation are plausible and should be entertained as possible causes, particularly given the proximity of the first outbreak to places where either cause could have occurred.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


    Science is not decided by opinion polls.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


    Science is not decided by opinion polls.
    Politics is.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,161
    I'd be interested in the overlap between people who rated Boris Johnson and people with a Maths A level at B or above. Quite small I'd imagine.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Many people do struggle with logic and numbers. They're a bit harder to master than words.

    Everything you say, Mr Retired Accountant, shows that not to be the case
    No need for that. My (on topic) point is, it's relatively easy to attain a facility with words good enough to bullshit and deceive the unwary. Examples of this abound. But it's different with 'hard' (as in rigorous) disciplines like logic and numbers. Lightweights and chancers are soon exposed when they stray into areas requiring those abilities.

    We could do worse than having all the party leaders sit some sort of Maths test when there's a general election with the results to be made public before polling day. If we'd done that in Dec 2019 it would have weeded out Boris Johnson and our pandemic response could have been led by somebody who could do add, takeaway, multiply and divide.
    You think Corbyn's calculus would have dazzled the nation?
    Rishi Sunak is apparently very good at maths. Make of that what you will.
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Many people do struggle with logic and numbers. They're a bit harder to master than words.

    Everything you say, Mr Retired Accountant, shows that not to be the case
    No need for that. My (on topic) point is, it's relatively easy to attain a facility with words good enough to bullshit and deceive the unwary. Examples of this abound. But it's different with 'hard' (as in rigorous) disciplines like logic and numbers. Lightweights and chancers are soon exposed when they stray into areas requiring those abilities.

    We could do worse than having all the party leaders sit some sort of when there's a general election with the results to be made public before polling day. If we'd done that in Dec 2019 it would have weeded out Boris Johnson and our pandemic response could have been led by somebody who could do add, takeaway, multiply and divide.
    I think Truss enjoyed asking her staff maths questions?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    kinabalu said:

    I'd be interested in the overlap between people who rated Boris Johnson and people with a Maths A level at B or above. Quite small I'd imagine.

    Well we know Sunak wasn't a fan, and he's good at maths.
  • Options
    Boris Johnson is history either way, I think the most relevant and concerning comment is this one actually:

    Lack of science expertise in gov - Valance says 10% of the civil service fast stream have a STEM degree (90% arts/humanities) so:

    "routine consideration of science in policy formulation is not where it needs to be"


    That's 90% of the civil service aren't from a STEM background explains a lot really. The figure will be even higher in the media too I'm sure.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ...

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Oh no, not the lab leak again. And all after holiday snaps, Liz Truss's S&M necklace, "what three words" and AI.

    Today we celebrate all of Leon's greatest hits. A bit like Leon's version of the Beatles Red and Blue albums.
    The weird thing is, you all know my tracks. My greatest hits. See @kjh above

    Yet I can’t name any of yours. Not one. And I bet no one else can, either

    You are like formless shades in an ether, you come and go and no one cares, and when you are gone no one will notice



    Could it possibly be, you know just a thought, that we don't bang on about them endlessly.

    Or possibly because we remember the really mad stuff.
    You’ve made 10,000 comments. I honestly cannot recall a single point you’ve made, a witticism essayed, a fresh idea introduced, a new concept discussed, not anything. Nothing of value, intelligence or memorability have you ever introduced to a discussion

    10,000 comments, all pointless

    If I am a series of well known songs on a much heard album, you are the hiss of white noise between the tracks

    It is because you are blinkered and only interested in your 6 pet subjects. I have initiated several discussions, instigated the very popular thread by Pagan.and have a like rate of 70%, so I can't be doing too bad a job. It is also worth noting my post rate is a very small fraction of your's. By its very nature repetition is memorable. It doesn't make it correct. I go for quality not quantity.
    “I have initiated several discussions”
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Many people do struggle with logic and numbers. They're a bit harder to master than words.

    Everything you say, Mr Retired Accountant, shows that not to be the case
    No need for that. My (on topic) point is, it's relatively easy to attain a facility with words good enough to bullshit and deceive the unwary. Examples of this abound. But it's different with 'hard' (as in rigorous) disciplines like logic and numbers. Lightweights and chancers are soon exposed when they stray into areas requiring those abilities.

    We could do worse than having all the party leaders sit some sort of when there's a general election with the results to be made public before polling day. If we'd done that in Dec 2019 it would have weeded out Boris Johnson and our pandemic response could have been led by somebody who could do add, takeaway, multiply and divide.
    I think Truss enjoyed asking her staff maths questions?
    Forgot about her. Yes, both of our last 2 PMs have been very good at Maths. Their quality speaks for itself.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    edited November 2023

    On topic. It's worth noting that all the extremely high IQ people on SAGE never recommended a lockdown prior to it being introduced.

    Being clever is no guarantee of being able to take the right decisions - or being able to take them at the right time.

    That's very true. Judgement and intelligence are only weakly correlated. Think of all the Oxbridge intellectuals who fell for Stalinism in the 1930s for instance.

    Or Noam Chomsky. 'Nuff said, really.
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,765
    So I take it "alea jacta est" isn't a reference to the Album of an Austrian Power Metal Band?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alea_Jacta_Est
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    We have only had 1 PM with a science degree, Thatcher.

    It isn't a requirement for the job, what is needed is top science advisers in the civil service who can break down complex scientific analysis and data in a way the PM can make a decision from it and a PM who is able to analyse complex problems and come to an effective decision from it
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    We have only had 1 PM with a science degree, Thatcher.

    It isn't a requirement for the job, what is needed is top science advisers in the civil service who can break down complex scientific analysis and data in a way the PM can make a decision from it and a PM who is able to analyse complex problems and come to an effective decision from it

    And that only one was the only great postwar PM we've ever had.

    And 90% of the civil service aren't from a mathematical/science etc background either.

    And the media are even worse.

    Its the blind leading the blind, scrutinised by the blind.
  • Options
    "alea jacta est"

    [Sean Connery voice] But in the Latin alphabet, "jacta" begins with an "i".
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    I dont' think politicians should need to be a maths wizz to be on the front benches, they don't need to have demonstrable experience in that field, but I do think they need to have a good level of comprehension of economic and financial matters, and so develop those skills if they want to hold serious posts. You might not get a post in the Treasury but collectively ministers need to be at least a little financially savvy.

    It's why I could not be an MP, as I simply find economic matters very hard to grasp even when explained to me, and despite all the other roles an MP has I think they should, with a bit of effort, understand that sort of thing.

    Of course, they often make believe they don't understand things like the deficit or debt, so it is hard to judge.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980

    Boris Johnson is history either way, I think the most relevant and concerning comment is this one actually:

    Lack of science expertise in gov - Valance says 10% of the civil service fast stream have a STEM degree (90% arts/humanities) so:

    "routine consideration of science in policy formulation is not where it needs to be"


    That's 90% of the civil service aren't from a STEM background explains a lot really. The figure will be even higher in the media too I'm sure.

    Hardly that surprising, most with a STEM background go into the City or Industry where the pay is higher than the civil service.

    Most civil servants beyond say the Treasury or parts of Health and aspects of DWP don't actually need to be brilliant at science and maths, what is important though is that high quality civil servants trained in STEM subjects are recruited to those departments
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,474
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


    A truly scientific argument worthy of RFK Jnr.

    Mate.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    kle4 said:

    I dont' think politicians should need to be a maths wizz to be on the front benches, they don't need to have demonstrable experience in that field, but I do think they need to have a good level of comprehension of economic and financial matters, and so develop those skills if they want to hold serious posts. You might not get a post in the Treasury but collectively ministers need to be at least a little financially savvy.

    It's why I could not be an MP, as I simply find economic matters very hard to grasp even when explained to me, and despite all the other roles an MP has I think they should, with a bit of effort, understand that sort of thing.

    Of course, they often make believe they don't understand things like the deficit or debt, so it is hard to judge.

    A shoutout for the Politics, Philosophy and ECONOMICS degree then?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    eek said:

    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.

    And other than handwringing and virtue signalling, what will that actually achieve?

    This is where Phillips was foolish last week. She sacrificed some excellent work on UK women's rights for something of no realistic benefit to the people of Gaza, because Bibi couldn't give two hoots about what some gobby Brummie thinks.
    I think in the case of Phillips and co they sacrificed a few things now for an easy election campaign come the next election
    It does make a difference. At lunch one of my colleagues said she couldn't vote for a party that "supported genocide in Gaza".

    She normally votes Conservative (I think) but won't vote for Labour now either.
  • Options
    CatMan said:

    So I take it "alea jacta est" isn't a reference to the Album of an Austrian Power Metal Band?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alea_Jacta_Est

    Nope.
  • Options
    This would be a far better country - and probably a far less divided one - if Boris Johnson had been born in a council house.
  • Options

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


    Science is not decided by opinion polls.
    Politics is.
    And that's the challenge. Because being good at politics (measured by the polls) is pretty independent of being good at government (which has a strong reality bias).

    There's always been that tension, and there's little point complaining, since every other system is probably worse.

    What I do think is different is that we used to have the politics and the government going on in the same brain, and politicians had to be tolerable at both. Johnson was possibly the first politician to have no interest in government at all- he just seemed to want the glory and the big chair. Hence the mutually convenient plan to outsource all that to Dom. Who must have known that he personally couldn't come fourth in a three way popularity contest.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    I dont' think politicians should need to be a maths wizz to be on the front benches, they don't need to have demonstrable experience in that field, but I do think they need to have a good level of comprehension of economic and financial matters, and so develop those skills if they want to hold serious posts. You might not get a post in the Treasury but collectively ministers need to be at least a little financially savvy.

    It's why I could not be an MP, as I simply find economic matters very hard to grasp even when explained to me, and despite all the other roles an MP has I think they should, with a bit of effort, understand that sort of thing.

    Of course, they often make believe they don't understand things like the deficit or debt, so it is hard to judge.

    A shoutout for the Politics, Philosophy and ECONOMICS degree then?
    Touche.

    Though I'm sorry to say getting a degree does not guarantee people really have any basic comprehension, even of the topic they've studied remarkably.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    kle4 said:

    I dont' think politicians should need to be a maths wizz to be on the front benches, they don't need to have demonstrable experience in that field, but I do think they need to have a good level of comprehension of economic and financial matters, and so develop those skills if they want to hold serious posts. You might not get a post in the Treasury but collectively ministers need to be at least a little financially savvy.

    It's why I could not be an MP, as I simply find economic matters very hard to grasp even when explained to me, and despite all the other roles an MP has I think they should, with a bit of effort, understand that sort of thing.

    Of course, they often make believe they don't understand things like the deficit or debt, so it is hard to judge.

    You'll be pleased to hear shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves did Maths, Further Maths, Politics and Economics for A level and has an Economics masters (on top of the obligatory Oxford PPE).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980

    This would be a far better country - and probably a far less divided one - if Boris Johnson had been born in a council house.

    The child benefit bill would be rather higher though!
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited November 2023
    I'm cancelling my Disney+ subscription.


  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993
    Was Churchill a maths whizz or a genius at quantum physics? I rather doubt it

    He was great with words, he had charisma and a gift for leadership. He was bold, and a fine judge of character, he was emotionally intelligent, and he was self confident (to a fault, some would say)

    I’m ignoring his flaws for this argument.

    He was perfect for wartime. Sometimes you need chemists, sometimes you need warriors
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,614
    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson is history either way, I think the most relevant and concerning comment is this one actually:

    Lack of science expertise in gov - Valance says 10% of the civil service fast stream have a STEM degree (90% arts/humanities) so:

    "routine consideration of science in policy formulation is not where it needs to be"


    That's 90% of the civil service aren't from a STEM background explains a lot really. The figure will be even higher in the media too I'm sure.

    Hardly that surprising, most with a STEM background go into the City or Industry where the pay is higher than the civil service.

    Most civil servants beyond say the Treasury or parts of Health and aspects of DWP don't actually need to be brilliant at science and maths, what is important though is that high quality civil servants trained in STEM subjects are recruited to those departments
    A good understanding of statistics and logic should be useful for all other than junior civil servants.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    kinabalu said:

    I'd be interested in the overlap between people who rated Boris Johnson and people with a Maths A level at B or above. Quite small I'd imagine.

    kinabalu said:

    I'd be interested in the overlap between people who rated Boris Johnson and people with a Maths A level at B or above. Quite small I'd imagine.

    @isam is his biggest fan and makes his living by assessing probability and risk.

  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    I'd be interested in the overlap between people who rated Boris Johnson and people with a Maths A level at B or above. Quite small I'd imagine.

    I wonder if Johnson passed his Maths O Level? Presumably with the hand holding available at Eton he must have done, but it would be interesting to know what grade he got.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    @AnasSarwar
    ·
    1h
    Tomorrow @ScottishLabour will vote for an immediate ceasefire.

    And other than handwringing and virtue signalling, what will that actually achieve?

    This is where Phillips was foolish last week. She sacrificed some excellent work on UK women's rights for something of no realistic benefit to the people of Gaza, because Bibi couldn't give two hoots about what some gobby Brummie thinks.
    I think in the case of Phillips and co they sacrificed a few things now for an easy election campaign come the next election
    Nothing stopping Starmer reappointing them after the election, too.
    Phillips will be back imo.

    "Keir can I have a word?"
    "Sure Jess."
    "Well you know my constituency is ..."
    "You need to rebel on Gaza?"
    "I think I do. I'm getting hammered."
    "Ok. So go for it. It's fine."
    "Really?"
    "Yes. Just pop me a resignation, get yourself reelected next year and then we'll have a chat."
    "Cheers boss."
    I entirely support democracy but its bad and disappointing people feel they need to do the wrong thing to appeal to bigots in their constituency.

    Jess Phillips has been until the past week long been one of my favourite Labour MPs, one of the few of that party I could respect in Corbyn's years, its a real shame to see her do what she's done this past week. Its a shame she didn't feel she could stand up to those bigots rather than kowtow to them.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson is history either way, I think the most relevant and concerning comment is this one actually:

    Lack of science expertise in gov - Valance says 10% of the civil service fast stream have a STEM degree (90% arts/humanities) so:

    "routine consideration of science in policy formulation is not where it needs to be"


    That's 90% of the civil service aren't from a STEM background explains a lot really. The figure will be even higher in the media too I'm sure.

    Hardly that surprising, most with a STEM background go into the City or Industry where the pay is higher than the civil service.

    Most civil servants beyond say the Treasury or parts of Health and aspects of DWP don't actually need to be brilliant at science and maths, what is important though is that high quality civil servants trained in STEM subjects are recruited to those departments
    A good understanding of statistics and logic should be useful for all other than junior civil servants.
    A convert to Sunakism. Maths for All!

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


    A truly scientific argument worthy of RFK Jnr.

    Mate.
    The wisdom of crowds is a real thing. Check out “ask the audience” on “who wants to be a millionaire”
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson is history either way, I think the most relevant and concerning comment is this one actually:

    Lack of science expertise in gov - Valance says 10% of the civil service fast stream have a STEM degree (90% arts/humanities) so:

    "routine consideration of science in policy formulation is not where it needs to be"


    That's 90% of the civil service aren't from a STEM background explains a lot really. The figure will be even higher in the media too I'm sure.

    Hardly that surprising, most with a STEM background go into the City or Industry where the pay is higher than the civil service.

    Most civil servants beyond say the Treasury or parts of Health and aspects of DWP don't actually need to be brilliant at science and maths, what is important though is that high quality civil servants trained in STEM subjects are recruited to those departments
    A good understanding of statistics and logic should be useful for all other than junior civil servants.
    A convert to Sunakism. Maths for All!

    At this current rate of growth in Sunakism he might have a shot at re-election in 2044.

    He'd only be a little older than Keir is now, so could do it.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


    A truly scientific argument worthy of RFK Jnr.

    Mate.
    The wisdom of crowds is a real thing. Check out “ask the audience” on “who wants to be a millionaire”
    In the run up to the 2015 general election most voters thought Labour would win the election.

    ICM did a wisdom of the crowds polls as did other pollsters.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,841
    HYUFD said:

    We have only had 1 PM with a science degree, Thatcher.

    It isn't a requirement for the job, what is needed is top science advisers in the civil service who can break down complex scientific analysis and data in a way the PM can make a decision from it and a PM who is able to analyse complex problems and come to an effective decision from it

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Angela Merkel was a chemist by profession. Given the esteem in which she isn't held by many in here, does this invalidate the hypothesis?
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    Leon said:

    Was Churchill a maths whizz or a genius at quantum physics? I rather doubt it

    He was great with words, he had charisma and a gift for leadership. He was bold, and a fine judge of character, he was emotionally intelligent, and he was self confident (to a fault, some would say)

    I’m ignoring his flaws for this argument.

    He was perfect for wartime. Sometimes you need chemists, sometimes you need warriors

    I think that he used matchsticks to help count when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer?
  • Options
    I would love to know who the "they" is that the Tories are claiming said that inflation would not be halved.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


    A truly scientific argument worthy of RFK Jnr.

    Mate.
    The wisdom of crowds is a real thing. Check out “ask the audience” on “who wants to be a millionaire”
    In the run up to the 2015 general election most voters thought Labour would win the election.

    “The classic wisdom-of-the-crowds finding involves point estimation of a continuous quantity. At a 1906 country fair in Plymouth, 800 people participated in a contest to estimate the weight of a slaughtered and dressed ox. Statistician Francis Galton observed that the median guess, 1207 pounds, was accurate within 1% of the true weight of 1198 pounds.[6] This has contributed to the insight in cognitive science that a crowd's individual judgments can be modeled as a probability distribution of responses with the median centered near the true value of the quantity to be estimated.[7]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd

    People all over the world have decided it came from the lab. The people are right
  • Options
    Labour leads by 19% nationally.

    Tied lowest Conservative % since Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (19 Nov.):

    Labour 43% (–)
    Conservative 24% (-3)
    Liberal Democrat 14% (+2)
    Reform UK 7% (-1)
    Green 5% (-1)
    SNP 4% (+1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 12 Nov.


    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1726646589245321644
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    I dont' think politicians should need to be a maths wizz to be on the front benches, they don't need to have demonstrable experience in that field, but I do think they need to have a good level of comprehension of economic and financial matters, and so develop those skills if they want to hold serious posts. You might not get a post in the Treasury but collectively ministers need to be at least a little financially savvy.

    It's why I could not be an MP, as I simply find economic matters very hard to grasp even when explained to me, and despite all the other roles an MP has I think they should, with a bit of effort, understand that sort of thing.

    Of course, they often make believe they don't understand things like the deficit or debt, so it is hard to judge.

    A shoutout for the Politics, Philosophy and ECONOMICS degree then?
    The first P stands for Philosophy.

    (The second for Pedantry.)
  • Options
    Johnson was born in 1964, so must have done Maths O level. If you passed that you really should have a basic level of numeracy.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


    A truly scientific argument worthy of RFK Jnr.

    Mate.
    The wisdom of crowds is a real thing. Check out “ask the audience” on “who wants to be a millionaire”
    In the run up to the 2015 general election most voters thought Labour would win the election.

    “The classic wisdom-of-the-crowds finding involves point estimation of a continuous quantity. At a 1906 country fair in Plymouth, 800 people participated in a contest to estimate the weight of a slaughtered and dressed ox. Statistician Francis Galton observed that the median guess, 1207 pounds, was accurate within 1% of the true weight of 1198 pounds.[6] This has contributed to the insight in cognitive science that a crowd's individual judgments can be modeled as a probability distribution of responses with the median centered near the true value of the quantity to be estimated.[7]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd

    People all over the world have decided it came from the lab. The people are right
    I'm guessing you must have a micro penis given the way you constantly have to tell us you are always right or has the Viagra stopped working.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993
    edited November 2023

    Labour leads by 19% nationally.

    Tied lowest Conservative % since Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (19 Nov.):

    Labour 43% (–)
    Conservative 24% (-3)
    Liberal Democrat 14% (+2)
    Reform UK 7% (-1)
    Green 5% (-1)
    SNP 4% (+1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 12 Nov.


    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1726646589245321644

    Reshuffle FINALLY sinking in? You did say 7-10 days?
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    Redfield & Wilton Strategies’ latest national Westminster voting intention poll in Great Britain finds the Labour Party leading by 19%, three points more than in our previous poll released on Monday last week. Altogether, the full numbers (with changes from 12 November in parenthesis) are as follows:

    Labour 43% (–)
    Conservative 24% (-3)
    Liberal Democrat 14% (+2)
    Reform UK 7% (-1)
    Green 5% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 4% (+1)
    Other 1% (–)

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-19-november-2023/

    R&W are usually higher than average for the Lib Dems.
  • Options

    This would be a far better country - and probably a far less divided one - if Boris Johnson had been born in a council house.

    Johnson is quite like a council estate benefit scrounger of tabloid imagination - numerous kids by different mothers, lazy and feckless, thinks the world owes him a living, permanently skint, can't hold down a job, unkempt appearance, engages in drunken shouting matches waking the neighbours... Perhaps he could star in a remake of Shameless.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fairly bad news for the Back Rishi Crew, too:

    The “good innings” and “lack of leadership” extract from Vallance’s diary shown to the Covid inquiry (see 3.05pm) also quotes Vallance quoting Dominic Cummings (DC), the PM’s chief adviser at the time, saying, “Rishi [Sunak] thinks just let people die and that’s okay.”

    This was 25 October 2020. Sunak was chancellor at the time.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/20/pensioners-winter-fuel-payments-autumn-statement-rishi-sunak-patrick-vallance-covid-inquiry-david-cameron-keir-starmer-michael-gove-david-lammy-uk-politics-latest

    Vallance is deeply implicated in the conspiracy - for that is what it was - to silence debate around the possibility of “lab leak”. To make it socially impermissible to discuss. They did this to protect the poor virologists, and the future of science, and relations with China

    He deserves zero respect
    Or he could genuinely believe from the evidence that he had that it was unlikely to have been the result of a lab leak.
    Even now we aren't sure how it started but the animal market looks most likely.

    "The lab leak theory stands as an unfalsifiable allegation. If an investigation of the lab found no evidence of a leak, the scientists involved would simply be accused of hiding the relevant material. If not a conspiracy theory, it’s a theory requiring a conspiracy."
    https://theconversation.com/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-is-dead-heres-how-we-know-the-virus-came-from-a-wuhan-market-188163
    Wow. The conversation!

    Mate, it’s over. The wisdom of crowds is right

    “In an Economist/YouGov poll, 66% of Americans believe SARS-CoV-2 originated from a virology lab in China.”

    And it’s not just America. In every country polled a plurality - and normally a big plurality or a big majority, believe it came from the lab. Britons believe this 2 to 1. Why? Because it came from the lab. Everyone knows this. The argument is futile


    A truly scientific argument worthy of RFK Jnr.

    Mate.
    The wisdom of crowds is a real thing. Check out “ask the audience” on “who wants to be a millionaire”
    And how many times do they give the contestant the wrong bloody answer? :lol:
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,339
    kinabalu said:

    I'd be interested in the overlap between people who rated Boris Johnson and people with a Maths A level at B or above. Quite small I'd imagine.

    *Raises hand*

    But it depends what you mean by “rated”. He got the referendum won. He avoided a second referendum that would have been lost. He ensured a hard-ish Brexit. He turns out to have kept our lockdown as short as was ever going to be possible, albeit more by luck than judgement.

    He was very useful.
  • Options
    Its always fun when Leon "discovers" a theory we've all known about and spoken about for years, then acts as if it is groundbreaking and reads far too much into it.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,939

    Labour leads by 19% nationally.

    Tied lowest Conservative % since Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (19 Nov.):

    Labour 43% (–)
    Conservative 24% (-3)
    Liberal Democrat 14% (+2)
    Reform UK 7% (-1)
    Green 5% (-1)
    SNP 4% (+1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 12 Nov.


    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1726646589245321644

    The Tory Surge continues apace. The Labour lead was 27pts last week.

    SUNAK IS BACK
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,161

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Many people do struggle with logic and numbers. They're a bit harder to master than words.

    Everything you say, Mr Retired Accountant, shows that not to be the case
    No need for that. My (on topic) point is, it's relatively easy to attain a facility with words good enough to bullshit and deceive the unwary. Examples of this abound. But it's different with 'hard' (as in rigorous) disciplines like logic and numbers. Lightweights and chancers are soon exposed when they stray into areas requiring those abilities.

    We could do worse than having all the party leaders sit some sort of Maths test when there's a general election with the results to be made public before polling day. If we'd done that in Dec 2019 it would have weeded out Boris Johnson and our pandemic response could have been led by somebody who could do add, takeaway, multiply and divide.
    You think Corbyn's calculus would have dazzled the nation?
    Fair comment. They'd both have been weeded out.

    My idea is looking better and better, isn't it?
  • Options

    Labour leads by 19% nationally.

    Tied lowest Conservative % since Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (19 Nov.):

    Labour 43% (–)
    Conservative 24% (-3)
    Liberal Democrat 14% (+2)
    Reform UK 7% (-1)
    Green 5% (-1)
    SNP 4% (+1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 12 Nov.


    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1726646589245321644

    Broken, sleazy Tories, Reform, and Greens on the slide!
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,841
    Didn't one of the great fictional POTUS, Josiah Bartlet, once opine:

    "You have a lot of help, you listen to everybody and then you call the play"

    That presumably is the essence of leadership - being able to give equal weight both to the opinions you like and the opinions you don't. Perhaps the problem is leaders surround themselves with advisers who act more in an affirmatory than controversial fashion.
  • Options
    Given that the question if very incumbent-friendly, Starmer's lead here is notable ...

    At this moment, which of the following do Britons think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (19 November)

    Keir Starmer 43% (+2)
    Rishi Sunak 28% (-3)

    Changes +/- 12 Nov

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1726649182604177413
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,841
    edited November 2023
    By the way, next Conservative poll at 30% or higher, NOT tonight with Redfield & Wilton.
This discussion has been closed.