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Now is the time for nuance and subtlety – politicalbetting.com

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  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    viewcode said:

    Has anybody been watching "The Newsreader" on BBC2? I just sat thru an episode in weekday digs and it's OK. Australian drama set in the 80's.

    No but sounds interesting.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    I think it is something to be proud of that we live in a country where people are judged not by the colour of their skin but the content of their character, as MLK put it. I think Yousef is Yousless for a whole range of reasons but his racial background is quite irrelevant and never seems to get a mention, except when his wife's family were at risk in Gaza when he got pretty universal sympathy. I think its great we live in a country like that and we don't often give ourselves enough credit for it.

    i agree, heartily, but this is where you ignore Wokeness at your peril

    Woke is ALL about judging people by the color of their skin. It is obsessed with race and colour, to a pathological degree. If you are white you are intrinsically evil and sinful and racist and there is nothing you can do about it, you are privileged and must forever apologize (but you can never apologize enough), and if you are black you are ALWAYS oppressed and exploited and the descendant of slaves even if you are a billionaire and don’t even notice race, thus you are infantilised, insultingly

    That is one reason Wokeness is SO insidious and poisonous. it pains me that bright people like you cannot see the danger of this
    It's also, at heart, racist. It believes, that given the same opportunities, and all else being equal, black kids will be outperformed by their white counterparts. I think this is unscientific rubbish, and means that the genuine reasons that some immigrant communities get left behind are not solved.
    My understanding is that it literally disagrees with that, and just argues that the first bit (same opportunities) are literally what isn't provided, hence the unequal outcomes.

    If the remnants of previous more obviously unequal societal structures are not the causes of the still unequal societal structures of today - what are the causes?
    Then why the calls for alterations to the education system because the measures of success used are apparently not conducive to black kids succeeding? There should be no reason why black kids can't succeed by the same academic yardsticks as their white counterparts, and lowering expectations for all is not helpful at all in achieving this.
    Oh, I can explain that and also give an example I've used here before.

    Take young black Caribbean boys. A study was done (I want to say in the early - mid noughties) looking into why that group was specifically over represented in disciplinary actions and suspensions - and wanted to look at how early this started and why. So, they went and watched young black Caribbean boys in early years education in different schools. One of the things this study noted was how black Caribbean boys specifically were called out by their teachers as being disruptive in the class. It noted that teachers would see these boys taking their time getting their pencils ready, sharpening their pencils, and generally preparing to do the work and considered that them procrastinating, and told them off or punished them for it.

    When the same researchers went in to the homes of these boys what they noticed was how their elders (who would teach them to do things or they would watch cook or clean etc.) would put a lot of emphasis in preparing their tools before working - cleaning all the kitchen equipment before starting to chop and cook, sharpening garden tools before gardening, etc.

    So this cultural difference - an emphasis of having all your ducks in a row before starting a task - was impacting children at a very young age and was interpreted by teachers as disruptive behaviour, for which they were punished. Now, imagine this continues - these children are punished more / miss more time from class for something they just see as getting down to work, and also generally become more defensive against teachers / distrustful of education - and you can see why students from that background may have worse outcomes further down the lines. This research didn't say it was the only factor, but that it started so early and was reinforced suggested it could be a significant factor.

    Now, start doing this with lots of other variables - other cultural practices, income inequality, education of the parents, etc. - and you can see how lots of small differences in opportunity (literally, just a cultural difference in understanding what it means to get ready to do work means) can have big impacts later on. One of the things we always note in my work (on barriers into Higher Education) is that the biggest predictor of good A-Levels and going to university is whether your mother has a undergraduate degree. Doesn't seem to matter too much if your dad does, but if your mother does it helps (some suggestions are that "helping the kids with homework" etc. is still typically gendered work in the household, and so the more educated your mum is, the better chances you have of performing well; it does not seem to be about income which was controlled for).
    But that isn't a good argument for changing the level of expectation for all students. If black kids are behind, their teachers should aim to ensure that they catch up, not that they're given tea and sympathy and told it's all too difficult. Such an approach feeds into low academic expectations for those groups that I believe become self fulfilling.

    In the specific case you cite, a couple of lessons should be enough for the teacher to make clear what their expectations are concerning readiness for lessons. The pupil will respond and if necessary change their habits because most of our behaviour is dictated by consequences, not antecedents.
  • Today:

    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews

    Friday’s Daily MAIL: “Unelected Lords plot to block Rwanda law that could end scenes like this” #TomorrowsPapersToday


    In three years time:


    Wreckless Starmer plan to elect Lords threatens a thousand years of history.



  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited November 2023
    viewcode said:

    Has anybody been watching "The Newsreader" on BBC2? I just sat thru an episode in weekday digs and it's OK. Australian drama set in the 80's.

    I’ve seen both seasons . It’s very enjoyable . If you like Anna Torv and have Netflix try Secret City , a political drama set in Canberra.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    edited November 2023
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wrote this back on October 7th:

    if Netanyahu can exploit it to capture Gaza and expel the Palestinian population there I suspect privately he will be very pleased. And whatever he says in public, I doubt if he really cares about the lives of Israeli civilians any more than he does Palestinian ones.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4561062/#Comment_4561062

    With the news that the IDF plan to advance on Khan Yunus, and the death of a hostage, plus what looks like an Israeli rejection of a pause in the fighting in exchange for the release of a number of hostages, looks like I wasn't far out.

    If fresh leadership emerges on both sides after this tragedy then that will be a silver lining, because boy is it needed.

    There was also talk from Israeli government minster today that they didn't see any difference between PA and Hamas.
    The Israelis have totally taken the gloves off, yes.

    In some respects that's partly our fault: they don't feel anyone else has their back, or cares much about them, so they have to do an absolutely comprehensive job to be safe.
    On the other hand, Israel used to be very concerned about Western public opinion.

    They would go out of their way to make it clear that they supported a two states solution; they would reign settlers in if they acted out; and they ensured that (sure) settlement building continued, but that it didn't involve demolishing Palestinian towns.

    And then, under the governments of Bibi, that all changed. The coalition stretches from the center right to the far right. And not only have there been no government ministers promoting the two states solution, you've had three or four who have called for Israel to extend from the river to the sea, and for the Palestinians to be expelled from the West Bank.

    So, yes, Israel has - to some extent - been abandoned by the world. But some of that is because it has changed and become more insular. It became confident that US support was unconditional and unwavering. And that meant it no longer cared so much about the public relations and the views of the West.

    Not so long ago, when I was at University (1992-95), students could sign up to travel to Israel on trips organized by the Israeli government, that - if not all paid for - were very heavily subsidised. OGH met my mother on such a trip in the 1960s. There was an active effort to promote Israel as a democratic, inclusive society that treated Muslims better than they were treated in the Arab nations in the area.
    This may be incorrect, or even bad of me, but I put a lot of the blame for the mess in Israeli politics (i.e. Bibi) on the Russian Jews who have fled to Israel since 1989. AIUI they also make a large portion of the most troublesome settlers as well, and I think are generally supporters of his party.
    To a degree. A lot of the Russian Jews that arrived after the USSR collapsed were fairly secular, and indeed often even minority Jewish. The rule is that one Jewish grandparent is enough, the same as the Nazis.

    The Israeli government has an explicit education policy that prioritises Orthodox and Haredi ideas over more secular and Reform Judaism. So 35 years later the descendents of these Russians are now more Orthodox and right wing.

    Over the last 30 years, and combined with the higher birthrates of the ultra-orthodox, this educational policy has shifted Israelis into a more religious and less secular society. These then see the settlements and land seizures as a religious duty, rather than anything more secular objectives.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-jerusalem/how-the-religious-right-transformed-israeli-education

    A parallel is allowing Saudi funding of Salafist teachings in Madrassas in Europe*, and as time goes on each generation becomes more fanatical, and less interested on compromise.

    *and yes we do allow this in the UK. Astonishingly

    Hilariously, we allow this in the prisons - Saudi funded loonies of the most extreme sort, going in to preach there.
    It is a tricky issue, as I wouldn't want to see government control over religious teaching, something that we took centuries of conflict to get away from.

    Getting religion can be a major step towards going straight for criminals, but many Islamist terrorists were petty criminals converted this way.
    I think that saying that aggressively racist, sexiest, homophobic thugs, preaching death to everyone else, should have to wait outside the prisons.

    If the Church of The Creator rocked up and asked permission to go into the prisons, should we let them in?
    Though chaplains do not say racist, homophobic and misogynist things to the prison authorities, just to the prisoners themselves.
    As we say in Northern Ireland, even the dogs know.

    Some prisoners even complained to the authorities after hearing some of the "sermons" in question.

    EDIT: We both know that the Church of The Creator types would not be allowed into the prisons. Orrientalism?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413
    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wrote this back on October 7th:

    if Netanyahu can exploit it to capture Gaza and expel the Palestinian population there I suspect privately he will be very pleased. And whatever he says in public, I doubt if he really cares about the lives of Israeli civilians any more than he does Palestinian ones.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4561062/#Comment_4561062

    With the news that the IDF plan to advance on Khan Yunus, and the death of a hostage, plus what looks like an Israeli rejection of a pause in the fighting in exchange for the release of a number of hostages, looks like I wasn't far out.

    If fresh leadership emerges on both sides after this tragedy then that will be a silver lining, because boy is it needed.

    There was also talk from Israeli government minster today that they didn't see any difference between PA and Hamas.
    The Israelis have totally taken the gloves off, yes.

    In some respects that's partly our fault: they don't feel anyone else has their back, or cares much about them, so they have to do an absolutely comprehensive job to be safe.
    On the other hand, Israel used to be very concerned about Western public opinion.

    They would go out of their way to make it clear that they supported a two states solution; they would reign settlers in if they acted out; and they ensured that (sure) settlement building continued, but that it didn't involve demolishing Palestinian towns.

    And then, under the governments of Bibi, that all changed. The coalition stretches from the center right to the far right. And not only have there been no government ministers promoting the two states solution, you've had three or four who have called for Israel to extend from the river to the sea, and for the Palestinians to be expelled from the West Bank.

    So, yes, Israel has - to some extent - been abandoned by the world. But some of that is because it has changed and become more insular. It became confident that US support was unconditional and unwavering. And that meant it no longer cared so much about the public relations and the views of the West.

    Not so long ago, when I was at University (1992-95), students could sign up to travel to Israel on trips organized by the Israeli government, that - if not all paid for - were very heavily subsidised. OGH met my mother on such a trip in the 1960s. There was an active effort to promote Israel as a democratic, inclusive society that treated Muslims better than they were treated in the Arab nations in the area.

    Israel chose to abandon that path.
    Not all of Israel, of course.
    It’s a divided society.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307
    isam said:

    More trouble for the Met. This case was outrageous; how he got away with the first murder is simply unbelievable

    BREAKING: Five Metropolitan Police officers and three former officers are being investigated for gross misconduct over the investigation into the murders carried out by serial killer Stephen Port

    https://x.com/metrouk/status/1725141518288080930?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What took them so long to work this out?

    From December 2021 - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/12/12/dont-tell-show-us/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    edited November 2023
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wrote this back on October 7th:

    if Netanyahu can exploit it to capture Gaza and expel the Palestinian population there I suspect privately he will be very pleased. And whatever he says in public, I doubt if he really cares about the lives of Israeli civilians any more than he does Palestinian ones.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4561062/#Comment_4561062

    With the news that the IDF plan to advance on Khan Yunus, and the death of a hostage, plus what looks like an Israeli rejection of a pause in the fighting in exchange for the release of a number of hostages, looks like I wasn't far out.

    If fresh leadership emerges on both sides after this tragedy then that will be a silver lining, because boy is it needed.

    There was also talk from Israeli government minster today that they didn't see any difference between PA and Hamas.
    The Israelis have totally taken the gloves off, yes.

    In some respects that's partly our fault: they don't feel anyone else has their back, or cares much about them, so they have to do an absolutely comprehensive job to be safe.
    On the other hand, Israel used to be very concerned about Western public opinion.

    They would go out of their way to make it clear that they supported a two states solution; they would reign settlers in if they acted out; and they ensured that (sure) settlement building continued, but that it didn't involve demolishing Palestinian towns.

    And then, under the governments of Bibi, that all changed. The coalition stretches from the center right to the far right. And not only have there been no government ministers promoting the two states solution, you've had three or four who have called for Israel to extend from the river to the sea, and for the Palestinians to be expelled from the West Bank.

    So, yes, Israel has - to some extent - been abandoned by the world. But some of that is because it has changed and become more insular. It became confident that US support was unconditional and unwavering. And that meant it no longer cared so much about the public relations and the views of the West.

    Not so long ago, when I was at University (1992-95), students could sign up to travel to Israel on trips organized by the Israeli government, that - if not all paid for - were very heavily subsidised. OGH met my mother on such a trip in the 1960s. There was an active effort to promote Israel as a democratic, inclusive society that treated Muslims better than they were treated in the Arab nations in the area.

    Israel chose to abandon that path.
    Not all of Israel, of course.
    It’s a divided society.
    Which is why there is a chance at peace - to break those who believe that without strategic depth, Isreal is doomed, from the Bibi coalition

    image

    Build more Israel....
  • Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wrote this back on October 7th:

    if Netanyahu can exploit it to capture Gaza and expel the Palestinian population there I suspect privately he will be very pleased. And whatever he says in public, I doubt if he really cares about the lives of Israeli civilians any more than he does Palestinian ones.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4561062/#Comment_4561062

    With the news that the IDF plan to advance on Khan Yunus, and the death of a hostage, plus what looks like an Israeli rejection of a pause in the fighting in exchange for the release of a number of hostages, looks like I wasn't far out.

    If fresh leadership emerges on both sides after this tragedy then that will be a silver lining, because boy is it needed.

    Is there any reason to believe that the next leadership on either side is going to be more reasonable?

    I reckon that they will be more radical on both sides. That is the nature of the conflict.
    In the end won't it come down to what the US will permit? Which in the event of POTUS Trump II, would probably consist of egging on Bibi.
    Trump has generally been scared of violence, because he doesn't understand it (despite playing loose with words). He'd rather be the deal-maker. So he'd probably sell out Israel if it got him headlines.

    Not to Palestine, obviously, which is worthless real estate but certainly to Saudi with its trillions.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wrote this back on October 7th:

    if Netanyahu can exploit it to capture Gaza and expel the Palestinian population there I suspect privately he will be very pleased. And whatever he says in public, I doubt if he really cares about the lives of Israeli civilians any more than he does Palestinian ones.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4561062/#Comment_4561062

    With the news that the IDF plan to advance on Khan Yunus, and the death of a hostage, plus what looks like an Israeli rejection of a pause in the fighting in exchange for the release of a number of hostages, looks like I wasn't far out.

    If fresh leadership emerges on both sides after this tragedy then that will be a silver lining, because boy is it needed.

    There was also talk from Israeli government minster today that they didn't see any difference between PA and Hamas.
    The Israelis have totally taken the gloves off, yes.

    In some respects that's partly our fault: they don't feel anyone else has their back, or cares much about them, so they have to do an absolutely comprehensive job to be safe.
    On the other hand, Israel used to be very concerned about Western public opinion.

    They would go out of their way to make it clear that they supported a two states solution; they would reign settlers in if they acted out; and they ensured that (sure) settlement building continued, but that it didn't involve demolishing Palestinian towns.

    And then, under the governments of Bibi, that all changed. The coalition stretches from the center right to the far right. And not only have there been no government ministers promoting the two states solution, you've had three or four who have called for Israel to extend from the river to the sea, and for the Palestinians to be expelled from the West Bank.

    So, yes, Israel has - to some extent - been abandoned by the world. But some of that is because it has changed and become more insular. It became confident that US support was unconditional and unwavering. And that meant it no longer cared so much about the public relations and the views of the West.

    Not so long ago, when I was at University (1992-95), students could sign up to travel to Israel on trips organized by the Israeli government, that - if not all paid for - were very heavily subsidised. OGH met my mother on such a trip in the 1960s. There was an active effort to promote Israel as a democratic, inclusive society that treated Muslims better than they were treated in the Arab nations in the area.
    This may be incorrect, or even bad of me, but I put a lot of the blame for the mess in Israeli politics (i.e. Bibi) on the Russian Jews who have fled to Israel since 1989. AIUI they also make a large portion of the most troublesome settlers as well, and I think are generally supporters of his party.
    To a degree. A lot of the Russian Jews that arrived after the USSR collapsed were fairly secular, and indeed often even minority Jewish. The rule is that one Jewish grandparent is enough, the same as the Nazis.

    The Israeli government has an explicit education policy that prioritises Orthodox and Haredi ideas over more secular and Reform Judaism. So 35 years later the descendents of these Russians are now more Orthodox and right wing.

    Over the last 30 years, and combined with the higher birthrates of the ultra-orthodox, this educational policy has shifted Israelis into a more religious and less secular society. These then see the settlements and land seizures as a religious duty, rather than anything more secular objectives.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-jerusalem/how-the-religious-right-transformed-israeli-education

    A parallel is allowing Saudi funding of Salafist teachings in Madrassas in Europe*, and as time goes on each generation becomes more fanatical, and less interested on compromise.

    *and yes we do allow this in the UK. Astonishingly

    Hilariously, we allow this in the prisons - Saudi funded loonies of the most extreme sort, going in to preach there.
    It is a tricky issue, as I wouldn't want to see government control over religious teaching, something that we took centuries of conflict to get away from.

    Getting religion can be a major step towards going straight for criminals, but many Islamist terrorists were petty criminals converted this way.
    I think that saying that aggressively racist, sexiest, homophobic thugs, preaching death to everyone else, should have to wait outside the prisons.

    If the Church of The Creator rocked up and asked permission to go into the prisons, should we let them in?
    Though chaplains do not say racist, homophobic and misogynist things to the prison authorities, just to the prisoners themselves.
    As we say in Northern Ireland, even the dogs know.

    Some prisoners even complained to the authorities after hearing some of the "sermons" in question.

    EDIT: We both know that the Church of The Creator types would not be allowed into the prisons. Orrientalism?
    I don't know who they are.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    More trouble for the Met. This case was outrageous; how he got away with the first murder is simply unbelievable

    BREAKING: Five Metropolitan Police officers and three former officers are being investigated for gross misconduct over the investigation into the murders carried out by serial killer Stephen Port

    https://x.com/metrouk/status/1725141518288080930?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What took them so long to work this out?

    From December 2021 - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/12/12/dont-tell-show-us/
    It's a day with a "y" in it. So another piece of covered up Met bullshit appears.

    Bunch of Plebs....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    I see the next big idea is to create a "Hostile Environment" for the long term sick.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1725279597141328110?t=M5stSpjAX3AoQiNbV2qnSQ&s=19

    I despair over the dystopia that we are becoming.
  • carnforth said:
    That's all she's good at :lol:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wrote this back on October 7th:

    if Netanyahu can exploit it to capture Gaza and expel the Palestinian population there I suspect privately he will be very pleased. And whatever he says in public, I doubt if he really cares about the lives of Israeli civilians any more than he does Palestinian ones.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4561062/#Comment_4561062

    With the news that the IDF plan to advance on Khan Yunus, and the death of a hostage, plus what looks like an Israeli rejection of a pause in the fighting in exchange for the release of a number of hostages, looks like I wasn't far out.

    If fresh leadership emerges on both sides after this tragedy then that will be a silver lining, because boy is it needed.

    There was also talk from Israeli government minster today that they didn't see any difference between PA and Hamas.
    The Israelis have totally taken the gloves off, yes.

    In some respects that's partly our fault: they don't feel anyone else has their back, or cares much about them, so they have to do an absolutely comprehensive job to be safe.
    On the other hand, Israel used to be very concerned about Western public opinion.

    They would go out of their way to make it clear that they supported a two states solution; they would reign settlers in if they acted out; and they ensured that (sure) settlement building continued, but that it didn't involve demolishing Palestinian towns.

    And then, under the governments of Bibi, that all changed. The coalition stretches from the center right to the far right. And not only have there been no government ministers promoting the two states solution, you've had three or four who have called for Israel to extend from the river to the sea, and for the Palestinians to be expelled from the West Bank.

    So, yes, Israel has - to some extent - been abandoned by the world. But some of that is because it has changed and become more insular. It became confident that US support was unconditional and unwavering. And that meant it no longer cared so much about the public relations and the views of the West.

    Not so long ago, when I was at University (1992-95), students could sign up to travel to Israel on trips organized by the Israeli government, that - if not all paid for - were very heavily subsidised. OGH met my mother on such a trip in the 1960s. There was an active effort to promote Israel as a democratic, inclusive society that treated Muslims better than they were treated in the Arab nations in the area.
    This may be incorrect, or even bad of me, but I put a lot of the blame for the mess in Israeli politics (i.e. Bibi) on the Russian Jews who have fled to Israel since 1989. AIUI they also make a large portion of the most troublesome settlers as well, and I think are generally supporters of his party.
    To a degree. A lot of the Russian Jews that arrived after the USSR collapsed were fairly secular, and indeed often even minority Jewish. The rule is that one Jewish grandparent is enough, the same as the Nazis.

    The Israeli government has an explicit education policy that prioritises Orthodox and Haredi ideas over more secular and Reform Judaism. So 35 years later the descendents of these Russians are now more Orthodox and right wing.

    Over the last 30 years, and combined with the higher birthrates of the ultra-orthodox, this educational policy has shifted Israelis into a more religious and less secular society. These then see the settlements and land seizures as a religious duty, rather than anything more secular objectives.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-jerusalem/how-the-religious-right-transformed-israeli-education

    A parallel is allowing Saudi funding of Salafist teachings in Madrassas in Europe*, and as time goes on each generation becomes more fanatical, and less interested on compromise.

    *and yes we do allow this in the UK. Astonishingly

    Hilariously, we allow this in the prisons - Saudi funded loonies of the most extreme sort, going in to preach there.
    It is a tricky issue, as I wouldn't want to see government control over religious teaching, something that we took centuries of conflict to get away from.

    Getting religion can be a major step towards going straight for criminals, but many Islamist terrorists were petty criminals converted this way.
    I think that saying that aggressively racist, sexiest, homophobic thugs, preaching death to everyone else, should have to wait outside the prisons.

    If the Church of The Creator rocked up and asked permission to go into the prisons, should we let them in?
    Though chaplains do not say racist, homophobic and misogynist things to the prison authorities, just to the prisoners themselves.
    As we say in Northern Ireland, even the dogs know.

    Some prisoners even complained to the authorities after hearing some of the "sermons" in question.

    EDIT: We both know that the Church of The Creator types would not be allowed into the prisons. Orrientalism?
    I don't know who they are.
    American "Church" - preaching hate against all but the select of the White Race. Full on Nazi scum. Complete with a history of inciting violent extremism among their converts.
  • Foxy said:

    I see the next big idea is to create a "Hostile Environment" for the long term sick.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1725279597141328110?t=M5stSpjAX3AoQiNbV2qnSQ&s=19

    I despair over the dystopia that we are becoming.

    They are all over the place.

    Cameron brought back from the cold to try and save the Blue Wall of milder old skool tories who believe in institutions and the rule of law on Tuesday.

    By Friday we are back to save the 2019 Red Wall Brexity, lock em all up, no foreigners, benefit scrounging bastards strategy.

    Sunak is hopeless. Utterly hopeless.
  • I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    carnforth said:
    That's all she's good at :lol:
    She must hold the all time Westminster record for the greatest disparity between the most said and the least done. One hopes, some sunny day soon, the incessant whining will end and we can all get a minute’s peace.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    Has anybody been watching "The Newsreader" on BBC2? I just sat thru an episode in weekday digs and it's OK. Australian drama set in the 80's.

    I’ve seen both seasons . It’s very enjoyable . If you like Anna Torv and have Netflix try Secret City , a political drama set in Canberra.
    I am, oddly, aware of it. Again, bits and pieces on YouTube. It does look like the kind of thing I'd like.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    edited November 2023
    Foxy said:

    I see the next big idea is to create a "Hostile Environment" for the long term sick.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1725279597141328110?t=M5stSpjAX3AoQiNbV2qnSQ&s=19

    I despair over the dystopia that we are becoming.

    'Long term sick' is just another way of saying 'benefit scrounger'. Or 'single mother'. Or 'boat people'.

    Are you part of The Blob, or something? Sheesh! Demerit++

    Suella and her ilk are the Djävulens Lek of Portillo-era Tories. However much he tries to reinvent himself as a light-hearted train buffoon. The seeds were sown deep.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited November 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    @holyroodmandy

    Oh, god, Michael Matheson has just shoved his kids under a bus...

    What an idiot.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    I see the next big idea is to create a "Hostile Environment" for the long term sick.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1725279597141328110?t=M5stSpjAX3AoQiNbV2qnSQ&s=19

    I despair over the dystopia that we are becoming.

    They are all over the place.

    Cameron brought back from the cold to try and save the Blue Wall of milder old skool tories who believe in institutions and the rule of law on Tuesday.

    By Friday we are back to save the 2019 Red Wall Brexity, lock em all up, no foreigners, benefit scrounging bastards strategy.

    Sunak is hopeless. Utterly hopeless.
    I had a patient on the long term sick who was sanctioned for not attending a sickness review to see if his disability had got better. He has Downs Syndrome. What a waste of everbody's time it was trying to sort it out.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    It would be the equivalent of one small child standing on the shoulders of another, whilst wearing a hat and a long adult overcoat and clenching a pipe, trying to buy a cinema ticket to a rude film.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,578


    What explains the rise? Physical long covid? Mental affects of the pandemic? Missed medical appointment leading to later intervention?

    (And why was it rising in 2019?)

    None of this necessarily requires new legislation, of course.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    viewcode said:

    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    Has anybody been watching "The Newsreader" on BBC2? I just sat thru an episode in weekday digs and it's OK. Australian drama set in the 80's.

    I’ve seen both seasons . It’s very enjoyable . If you like Anna Torv and have Netflix try Secret City , a political drama set in Canberra.
    I am, oddly, aware of it. Again, bits and pieces on YouTube. It does look like the kind of thing I'd like.
    You might enjoy the 'scandi' shows 'The Man Who Died' and 'Hjerson'.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,578
    Everyone's favourite category: "other".


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    .
    viewcode said:

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    It would be the equivalent of one small child standing on the shoulders of another, whilst wearing a hat and a long adult overcoat and clenching a pipe, trying to buy a cinema ticket to a rude film.
    The closer they get to the end of their administration, the more determined are some to force through measures almost certain to be reversed by the next government. It’s odd, and somewhat perverse.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    viewcode said:

    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    Has anybody been watching "The Newsreader" on BBC2? I just sat thru an episode in weekday digs and it's OK. Australian drama set in the 80's.

    I’ve seen both seasons . It’s very enjoyable . If you like Anna Torv and have Netflix try Secret City , a political drama set in Canberra.
    I am, oddly, aware of it. Again, bits and pieces on YouTube. It does look like the kind of thing I'd like.
    I really like Aussie dramas . They tend to have a distinctive feel . The BBC Iplayer have Black Snow which is centers round the murder of an Aborigine teenager , thought provoking with some excellent performances. Also on there the French drama Black Box which is about a plane crash and subsequent cover up.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Have just finished Kidnapping Day in Amazon.
    A somewhat unlikely crime Kdrama but with one of the best child actor leads I’ve ever seen.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    Has anybody been watching "The Newsreader" on BBC2? I just sat thru an episode in weekday digs and it's OK. Australian drama set in the 80's.

    I’ve seen both seasons . It’s very enjoyable . If you like Anna Torv and have Netflix try Secret City , a political drama set in Canberra.
    I am, oddly, aware of it. Again, bits and pieces on YouTube. It does look like the kind of thing I'd like.
    I really like Aussie dramas . They tend to have a distinctive feel . The BBC Iplayer have Black Snow which is centers round the murder of an Aborigine teenager , thought provoking with some excellent performances. Also on there the French drama Black Box which is about a plane crash and subsequent cover up.
    If you can take a little more light-hearted - then the NZ show 'The Brokenwood Mysteries' is worth a shot. Or the Australian show 'Mr and Mrs Murder'. Both take an episode or two to find their feet - but worth a shot.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Absolutely zero justification for this latest delay in the Trump trial.

    Judge Cannon denies request by Special Counsel that she set CIPA Section 5 deadline in Trump classified docs case -- where defendant is required to disclose what classified info he intends to use at trial -- and says it will be set in March 2024 (!)
    https://twitter.com/hugolowell/status/1725217561615155322
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Stop The War info/template letter for parents to send to their children’s school saying they won’t be in today as they’re marching for Palestine

    “ How to organise a school strike:

    Gather a group of dedicated parents/teenagers in your area and create a WhatsApp group.
    Fill out this Google form and we will try and put you in touch with others in your area.
    Pick a central location in your area to have a rally on Friday morning.
    Create an announcements WhatsApp group with admin-only posting rights. Add other organisers as admins, and use a join link to share widely so others in the area can join it. Set the group description (template below) with the details of your strike, and use this group to let people know about the details of the strike and to share the resources below.
    Fill out this Google form to let us know about your school strike so we can help you with a graphic & poster, advertise it nationally including making a Facebook event for you, put you in touch with local activists and help/advise with anything else.”



    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B_QAZuqwClKKjAZqYbMdGaWNl47N8S-hGDiZsTTeMBE/mobilebasic

    https://www.stopwar.org.uk/events/school-strike-for-palestine/

    So from your own link, kids taking unauthorised absence. That does not require the support of headteachers and local leaders as claimed at all, simply parents, or perhaps even just kids.

    "We’ve been assured by those working in schools that whilst this would count as an unauthorised absence, a child can have up to four days in a row unauthorised and would need 10 in a short amount of time to be fined. Please do check your own school policy."
    Lovely. Viva Multiculture
    Look, its important to be accurate when making such claims, regardless of whether the kids should be off school or not or the marches or multiculturalism are good things, otherwise there is no point debating.

    The process they suggest is explicitly not getting the support of headteachers as claimed, it is parents informing the school of unauthorised absence.
    Well, the parents are obviously supporting it, I don’t doubt the ‘community leaders’ are backing it, and the schools turn a blind eye because it’s more bother than it’s worth trying to tackle it - they know, and don’t try to stop it.

    What do you expect the headteacher to do? Go round at 7am to each house and kidnap the kids?

    If parents don't send kids to school its on the parents whether the kids are going on a march, skiing or sitting on the sofa watching homes under the hammer. Only if its persistent the schools can get involved.

    So no - it is also wrong to claim the schools are turning a blind eye, they have no power here.
    Well I didn’t actually claim it myself. I agree, the teachers at the schools generally aren’t Muslims so don’t share the agenda. But parts of Tower Hamlets are a parallel society.
    Pro Palestine is an Agenda that Muslims and only Muslims have?
    It’s an opinion held more commonly by Muslims I’d say. Let’s not shadowbox, you know what I think and I can tell what you’re lining up
    It's just that you said "the teachers are not Muslim and therefore don't share the agenda".

    As if that's a given, that if you’re not Muslim you won't care about the oppression of the Palestinians or the carnage in Gaza.

    That's far from the case.
    That’s true actually, and there are plenty of left wing academics in particular who do feel strongly about it


  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    More trouble for the Met. This case was outrageous; how he got away with the first murder is simply unbelievable

    BREAKING: Five Metropolitan Police officers and three former officers are being investigated for gross misconduct over the investigation into the murders carried out by serial killer Stephen Port

    https://x.com/metrouk/status/1725141518288080930?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What took them so long to work this out?

    From December 2021 - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/12/12/dont-tell-show-us/
    They were terribly busy looking over there. You know. Over there. 👀

    I rewatched Law & Order from 1978 during lockdown. It kinda depressed me how current it felt.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the next big idea is to create a "Hostile Environment" for the long term sick.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1725279597141328110?t=M5stSpjAX3AoQiNbV2qnSQ&s=19

    I despair over the dystopia that we are becoming.

    They are all over the place.

    Cameron brought back from the cold to try and save the Blue Wall of milder old skool tories who believe in institutions and the rule of law on Tuesday.

    By Friday we are back to save the 2019 Red Wall Brexity, lock em all up, no foreigners, benefit scrounging bastards strategy.

    Sunak is hopeless. Utterly hopeless.
    I had a patient on the long term sick who was sanctioned for not attending a sickness review to see if his disability had got better. He has Downs Syndrome. What a waste of everbody's time it was trying to sort it out.
    The system is so brittle it is unbelievable. And so centralised.

    And just try getting through on the phone to speak to someone!!!

  • ohnotnow said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the next big idea is to create a "Hostile Environment" for the long term sick.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1725279597141328110?t=M5stSpjAX3AoQiNbV2qnSQ&s=19

    I despair over the dystopia that we are becoming.

    'Long term sick' is just another way of saying 'benefit scrounger'. Or 'single mother'. Or 'boat people'.

    Are you part of The Blob, or something? Sheesh! Demerit++

    Suella and her ilk are the Djävulens Lek of Portillo-era Tories. However much he tries to reinvent himself as a light-hearted train buffoon. The seeds were sown deep.
    "sick notes will be approved by the benefits system rather than doctors"

    That is just f*cking LOL.

    It will not happen.

    And if it does it will be a clusterfuck for the ages.

    And probably involve a £5billion IT system from the guys who brought us the Post Office scandal.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    In the US it seems to be standard practice to throw unrelated things into the same bill as a tactic to force it through.
  • Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    More trouble for the Met. This case was outrageous; how he got away with the first murder is simply unbelievable

    BREAKING: Five Metropolitan Police officers and three former officers are being investigated for gross misconduct over the investigation into the murders carried out by serial killer Stephen Port

    https://x.com/metrouk/status/1725141518288080930?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What took them so long to work this out?

    From December 2021 - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/12/12/dont-tell-show-us/
    As I said in that thread, it seemed more like institutional failure owing to the organisation of the Metropolitan Police as much as individual police officers.
  • Right wing Tories: The State does far too much.

    Also Right Wing Tories: We will centralise sick notes, taking the process away from private contractor family GPs and employing an army of civil servants.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    ohnotnow said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the next big idea is to create a "Hostile Environment" for the long term sick.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1725279597141328110?t=M5stSpjAX3AoQiNbV2qnSQ&s=19

    I despair over the dystopia that we are becoming.

    'Long term sick' is just another way of saying 'benefit scrounger'. Or 'single mother'. Or 'boat people'.

    Are you part of The Blob, or something? Sheesh! Demerit++

    Suella and her ilk are the Djävulens Lek of Portillo-era Tories. However much he tries to reinvent himself as a light-hearted train buffoon. The seeds were sown deep.
    "sick notes will be approved by the benefits system rather than doctors"

    That is just f*cking LOL.

    It will not happen.

    And if it does it will be a clusterfuck for the ages.

    And probably involve a £5billion IT system from the guys who brought us the Post Office scandal.

    They don’t care if it’s a clusterfuck . If people end up committing suicide or unable to work but now forced into destitution. They just want some red meat to throw to the baying mob . It’s a collective punishment for the tiny percentage of real fraud.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    In the US it seems to be standard practice to throw unrelated things into the same bill as a tactic to force it through.
    "Christmas Tree"' bills. You hang things on them.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    viewcode said:

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    In the US it seems to be standard practice to throw unrelated things into the same bill as a tactic to force it through.
    "Christmas Tree"' bills. You hang things on them.
    They really have a ridiculous system whereby things totally unrelated to the main bill get added on and the whole thing ends up a total mess .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Motherwell South East & Ravenscraig (North Lanarkshire) By-Election Result [First Prefs]:

    🌹 LAB: 44.0% (+12.8)
    🎗️ SNP: 30.1% (-12.7)
    🌳 CON: 9.5% (-7.1)
    🌍 GRN: 8.2% (+0.4)
    💂‍♀️ BUP: 3.1% (New)
    🔶 LDM: 2.2% (New)
    🔷 ALBA: 2.1% (New)
    💷 UKIP: 0.8% (+0.1)

    No SFP (-0.9) as previous.

    Labour GAIN From SNP.
    Changes w/ 2022.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited November 2023
    Probably the two most important witnesses at the Post Office inquiry have had their evidence dates postponed because of late disclosure of documents by the PO. Sir Wyn Williams not happy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFcljz9CWds
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    viewcode said:

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    In the US it seems to be standard practice to throw unrelated things into the same bill as a tactic to force it through.
    "Christmas Tree"' bills. You hang things on them.
    It’s a good (or bad) old US tradition, whose development was motivated by Congressional legislators wanting to avoid the presidential veto.
    Which probably explains why the Wikipedia article on legislative riders is mostly about the US.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider_(legislation)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    In the US it seems to be standard practice to throw unrelated things into the same bill as a tactic to force it through.
    So what? I’m sure there are all sorts of random practices worldwide. Sod all to do with what we do here.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,938
    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the next big idea is to create a "Hostile Environment" for the long term sick.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1725279597141328110?t=M5stSpjAX3AoQiNbV2qnSQ&s=19

    I despair over the dystopia that we are becoming.

    I said the other day that Sunak thinks of the country like a company and is basically rationalising it. Importing cheaper labour, raising funds from foreign venture capitalists, cutting off the dead wood, subjecting it to enshittification, then selling it off and retiring to California and buying a yacht. He's managing the sick out.
    Accurate. In other words, he's managing the country as any other Stanford MBA grad would.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    It does not have 'nothing' to do with finance.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Have we had much polling on the marches? Other than the Armistice Day one which was a bit unique.

    What do people think of them?
    Should they be banned?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited November 2023

    Foxy said:

    I see the next big idea is to create a "Hostile Environment" for the long term sick.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1725279597141328110?t=M5stSpjAX3AoQiNbV2qnSQ&s=19

    I despair over the dystopia that we are becoming.

    They are all over the place.

    Cameron brought back from the cold to try and save the Blue Wall of milder old skool tories who believe in institutions and the rule of law on Tuesday.

    By Friday we are back to save the 2019 Red Wall Brexity, lock em all up, no foreigners, benefit scrounging bastards strategy.

    Sunak is hopeless. Utterly hopeless.
    Hammering sick welfare recipients is pure Cameron. We had this nonsense from 2010-16 and to be fair to him, it was Boris who stopped it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    It does not have 'nothing' to do with finance.
    It has nothing to do with a finance bill, which in the U.K. is tightly defined.
    https://guidetoprocedure.parliament.uk/articles/9Sc0nmH5/finance-bill
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited November 2023

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    In the US it seems to be standard practice to throw unrelated things into the same bill as a tactic to force it through.
    So what? I’m sure there are all sorts of random practices worldwide. Sod all to do with what we do here.
    Precisely. The poster above is correct - In our system the “short title” matters. You can’t bung anything into any Bill.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Antisemites in right-wing media are mask off like I've never seen before. Consensus that this is the path forward is hardening.

    Charlie Kirk today: “Some of the largest financiers of left-wing anti-white causes have been Jewish Americans”

    https://twitter.com/peltzmadeline/status/1725247386862146017
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Nigelb said:

    Antisemites in right-wing media are mask off like I've never seen before. Consensus that this is the path forward is hardening.

    Charlie Kirk today: “Some of the largest financiers of left-wing anti-white causes have been Jewish Americans”

    https://twitter.com/peltzmadeline/status/1725247386862146017

    The Venn diagram of wrong’uns is getting super complex.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    So tonight we have a Lab gain in Scotland, a Green gain in Somerset, and a LD gain in Bolton. Progressive alliance in action.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    slade said:

    So tonight we have a Lab gain in Scotland, a Green gain in Somerset, and a LD gain in Bolton. Progressive alliance in action.

    Did the Tories lose any seats? Haven't checked.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    First serious misstep from Haley.

    The Implosion of Nikki Haley’s Social Media Crusade
    Her call to ban anonymous posting is foolish, impractical and downright unpatriotic*.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/16/nikki-haley-social-media-anonymity-00127612


    *And just as importantly, completely unconstitutional.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Nigelb said:

    First serious misstep from Haley.

    The Implosion of Nikki Haley’s Social Media Crusade
    Her call to ban anonymous posting is foolish, impractical and downright unpatriotic*.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/16/nikki-haley-social-media-anonymity-00127612


    *And just as importantly, completely unconstitutional.

    Why is it unpatriotic?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    If you are ever confused about what the correct view on a subject is, just think the opposite of this guy:


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited November 2023
    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    In the US it seems to be standard practice to throw unrelated things into the same bill as a tactic to force it through.
    "Christmas Tree"' bills. You hang things on them.
    They really have a ridiculous system whereby things totally unrelated to the main bill get added on and the whole thing ends up a total mess .
    They also haven’t passed a proper Budget since 1997, relying on a series of “continuation bills” often in the face of a deadline for government shutdown. The lobbyists love this, as it means they get their pork every year, without any scrutiny or oversight, meanwhile Congress gets a 5,000 page Bill and one day to read it before the vote.

    This was the reason behind the ousting of Speaker McCarthy a couple of months ago, as he’d promised to break out spending - but then failed to do so, and presented yet another continuation bill to Congress.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/13/congress-has-long-struggled-to-pass-spending-bills-on-time/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    Sandpit said:

    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    In the US it seems to be standard practice to throw unrelated things into the same bill as a tactic to force it through.
    "Christmas Tree"' bills. You hang things on them.
    They really have a ridiculous system whereby things totally unrelated to the main bill get added on and the whole thing ends up a total mess .
    They also haven’t passed a proper Budget since 1997, relying on a series of “continuation bills” often in the face of a deadline for government shutdown. The lobbyists love this, as it means they get their pork every year, without any scrutiny or oversight, meanwhile Congress gets a 5,000 page Bill and one day to read it before the vote.

    This was the reason behind the ousting of Speaker McCarthy a couple of months ago, as he’d promised to break out spending - but then failed to do so, and presented yet another continuation bill to Congress.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/13/congress-has-long-struggled-to-pass-spending-bills-on-time/
    That's a great piece.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited November 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    Such an addendum would be nothing to do with Finance and would be rejected as wildly improper.
    In the US it seems to be standard practice to throw unrelated things into the same bill as a tactic to force it through.
    "Christmas Tree"' bills. You hang things on them.
    They really have a ridiculous system whereby things totally unrelated to the main bill get added on and the whole thing ends up a total mess .
    They also haven’t passed a proper Budget since 1997, relying on a series of “continuation bills” often in the face of a deadline for government shutdown. The lobbyists love this, as it means they get their pork every year, without any scrutiny or oversight, meanwhile Congress gets a 5,000 page Bill and one day to read it before the vote.

    This was the reason behind the ousting of Speaker McCarthy a couple of months ago, as he’d promised to break out spending - but then failed to do so, and presented yet another continuation bill to Congress.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/13/congress-has-long-struggled-to-pass-spending-bills-on-time/
    That's a great piece.
    It took a few goes to find a piece that was entirely factual, and not hideously biased one way or the other.

    It’s rather sad but amusing to see the note at the bottom, that this was an update of a piece first published five years ago! Because of course it was, the same thing has been happening for decades.

    The bit missing, is that the big money in politics loves the chaos and the deadlines, as the lack of scrutiny works in their favour. The last thing the lobbyists want is actual scrutiny over the budget, and time spent looking through the details of where the money goes.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/andrew-winn-the-over-promoted-postie/

    "I first became fascinated by the Post Office’s willingness to place loyalty and length of service over ability in 2018 at the Bates v Post Office litigation at the High Court.

    During the litigation’s first trial, a succession of Post Office witnesses took the stand. Some were sharp, some were the dimmest of dim bulbs, but all had one thing in common – the extraordinarily long amount of time they had been working for the Post Office. The smallest period of unbroken service was ten years. The longest nearly forty. Almost all had worked their way up after joining the Post Office either as a counter clerk or postman."
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Life expectancy for men in the USA is now 73 years, the same as Glasgow.

    https://www.statnews.com/2023/11/13/life-expectancy-men-women/
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66922972
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Andy_JS said:
    A combination of drugs, depression, drugs, too many guns, drugs, and a somewhat outdated attitude towards drinking and driving.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    I think this is another new one:
    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 46% (=)
    CON: 22% (-3)
    LDM: 11% (+1)
    RFM: 8% (+1)
    GRN: 7% (=)
    SNP: 3% (+1)

    Via @techneUK, 15-16 Nov.
    Changes w/ 8-9 Nov.

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1725313575214813606?t=4RH_ozM0ure_71UlfU27FQ&s=19

    Con on 52 seats by EC, Lab majority 372.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Every poll seems to suggest that the public don't like the idea of an unelected politician holding one of the most important jobs in government.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Total mess in Las Vegas for the F1. Red flag eight minutes into the first practice session, after a drain cover came unstuck and Carlos Sainz’s car hit it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited November 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Every poll seems to suggest that the public don't like the idea of an unelected politician holding one of the most important jobs in government.

    I think that marginal compared with Braverman inciting street disorder then being sacked.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    In another dismal bit of polling for the Tories, even Con supporters think the drop on inflation was not the government's doing.


  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Sandpit said:

    Total mess in Las Vegas for the F1. Red flag eight minutes into the first practice session, after a drain cover came unstuck and Carlos Sainz’s car hit it.

    Session cancelled. Not a good look.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Sandpit said:

    Total mess in Las Vegas for the F1. Red flag eight minutes into the first practice session, after a drain cover came unstuck and Carlos Sainz’s car hit it.

    Session cancelled. Not a good look.
    Seriously embarrassing for all involved. Two cars with broken chassis, and a failure that isn’t the work of an hour or two to fix. How can they declare 6km of track safe, when there was a failure like this after seven minutes of running?


  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Foxy said:

    carnforth said:



    What explains the rise? Physical long covid? Mental affects of the pandemic? Missed medical appointment leading to later intervention?

    (And why was it rising in 2019?)

    None of this necessarily requires new legislation, of course.

    It follows this curve:


    When I looked into this, roughly half the trouble the NHS is in (waiting lists + some other metrics), is just long term trend.

    I don't see any way out. Vicious circle now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572



    IDF says it has retrieved the body of Yehudit Weiss, who was captured by Hamas on October 7, from a building near Shifa Hospital in the Gaza Strip.

    Bibi's attempts to save any hostages seems to have been at best sketchy. He has been much better at razing hospitals to the ground.

    It's as though he didn't give a **** for hostages, or Gazan civilians.
    As takes go, that's a rather poor one.

    Don't blame Israel for the fate of the hostages. Blame Hamas. It's all in their hands.
    Christ some people are as dull as dishwater on here.

    My point, as I have corrected Casino, was not some Corbynista celebration of Hamas, it was confirming my view that Netanyahu is not only useless but wicked too.

    Netanyahu may be Prime Minister, but he represents perhaps a minority of Israelis.
    I'm glad you understand quite how dull you are. ;)

    Again, blame Hamas. They have taken hostages, and are holding them. They can release them any time they want, with no strings attached. But they choose not to.
    FFS. Where am I exonerating Hamas? Where am I claiming it is not Hamas who have taken and are holding the hostages? Do I have to follow your lead because if I don't blow smoke up. Bibi's ass, I am a Corbynista traitor.

    (Snip)
    You wrote: "It's as though he (Bibi) didn't give a **** for hostages"

    That's essentially blaming him for the death, isn't it?
    Not at all. I am blaming Hamas unequivocally for their disgusting bloodlust on 7th of October, their vile hostage taking and their subsequent killing of those hostages.

    I am saying Bibi has done nothing, and I mean nothing to recover the hostages. Why has he done nothing? I suspect it is because he doesn't care about their welfare because Bibi's priority is Bibi. I suspect Bibi is a sociopath which is why he will be comfortable if it takes 2.3 million dead to erase Hamas in Gaza and 3million dead in the West Bank just for good measure. In for a penny in for a pound.

    My analysis is limited to Netanyahu, it is not a reflection on Israel or the people of Israel. It is not a rallying cry for Hamas. It is my view and I am entitled to it.
    Fair enough; that is not the way it came across in the context of the tragic death of a hostage.

    But I also query: "I am saying Bibi has done nothing, and I mean nothing to recover the hostages."

    How do you know? There have been negotiations, which sadly have not yet succeeded. How do you know that Bibi is the main (or only) stumbling block to the negotiations, and not conditions put on a deal by Hamas or even a.n.other?

    What else do you expect Bibi to do to get the hostages released?
    If you read my first post again you cannot possibly interpret my intention as pro Hamas, but as you are aware I am a non-Conservative so auto suggestion made you believe that I must also be Corbynista pro-Hamas scum.

    If you think Netanyahu a decent guy, I haven't got the time to debate that with you. The evidence is to the contrary.

    Hamas are a death cult. What more can I say about them?
    Please don't be a fool. If you think I'm a 'Conservative', after what I've said about Boris et al for the last six or seven years, then there's something wrong with your political antenna! I'm also aware there are plenty of people on the left who dislike, or even despise, the Corbynite tendency. Including many on here,

    I've also criticised Netanyahu on here well before this current mess, and have described the expansion of the settlements as being a massive barrier to peace and (I believed I used the phrase) "utterly self-defeating". Again, that was before this mess. I am no fan of his.

    But I think my question in the previous post is a fair one, and one that is worth an answer. Which you avoid and instead go on an silly insult-fest.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    ydoethur said:

    I wrote this back on October 7th:

    if Netanyahu can exploit it to capture Gaza and expel the Palestinian population there I suspect privately he will be very pleased. And whatever he says in public, I doubt if he really cares about the lives of Israeli civilians any more than he does Palestinian ones.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4561062/#Comment_4561062

    With the news that the IDF plan to advance on Khan Yunus, and the death of a hostage, plus what looks like an Israeli rejection of a pause in the fighting in exchange for the release of a number of hostages, looks like I wasn't far out.

    If fresh leadership emerges on both sides after this tragedy then that will be a silver lining, because boy is it needed.

    "plus what looks like an Israeli rejection of a pause in the fighting in exchange for the release of a number of hostages,"

    Has there been any news on this? A while back it was being mooted that the hostages would be released to Iran, which does not seem like a definition of 'released' most of us would recognise. What are the details of the hostage release - I assume this is the Qatari deal, which is only for 50 or so hostages?
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say

    "Netanyahu rejected ceasefire-for-hostages deal in Gaza, sources say Israeli PM said to have turned down proposal in early talks and continues to take tough line [...] According to three sources familiar with the talks, the original deal on the table involved freeing children, women and elderly and sick people in exchange for a five-day ceasefire, but the Israeli government turned this down and demonstrated its rejection with the launch of the ground offensive."
    That sounds like the same deal I heard early on in this mess, when the hostages were to be released to Iran. And another part of the deal was the release of loads of Palestinian prisoners. If so, Israel were wise to reject it. If not true, they were stupid and venal to reject it.

    Small details can matter.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Total mess in Las Vegas for the F1. Red flag eight minutes into the first practice session, after a drain cover came unstuck and Carlos Sainz’s car hit it.

    Session cancelled. Not a good look.
    Seriously embarrassing for all involved. Two cars with broken chassis, and a failure that isn’t the work of an hour or two to fix. How can they declare 6km of track safe, when there was a failure like this after seven minutes of running?


    They cannot. Were there any support races beforehand?

    Although manhole cover issues do occur occasionally; ISTR Massa got caught out ne year at Monaco, who should have known what they were doing by then, and Button somewhere else. I think Baku had issues as well?

    In other news, no SH/SS launch today. Looks like the attempt may be 13.00 or so tomorrow.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    Foxy said:

    In another dismal bit of polling for the Tories, even Con supporters think the drop on inflation was not the government's doing.


    Neither inflation’s rise, nor its fall, have much to do with the government, here or elsewhere. It doesn’t stop governments getting the blame for the rise, but no credit for the fall.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Total mess in Las Vegas for the F1. Red flag eight minutes into the first practice session, after a drain cover came unstuck and Carlos Sainz’s car hit it.

    Session cancelled. Not a good look.
    Seriously embarrassing for all involved. Two cars with broken chassis, and a failure that isn’t the work of an hour or two to fix. How can they declare 6km of track safe, when there was a failure like this after seven minutes of running?


    They cannot. Were there any support races beforehand?

    Although manhole cover issues do occur occasionally; ISTR Massa got caught out ne year at Monaco, who should have known what they were doing by then, and Button somewhere else. I think Baku had issues as well?

    In other news, no SH/SS launch today. Looks like the attempt may be 13.00 or so tomorrow.
    There’s no support races, as they can only close the roads for a few hours.

    Yes, it’s happened before a few times, and it’s always been chaos. TV showed a replay of Button hitting one in Monaco in 2007. It’s a problem with the cars producing so much downforce they act as a massive Hoover to anything that’s not bolted down.

    This one looks like the actual cover was bolted down, but the metal and concrete surround was the failure point, where the cars are well over 300km/h on track. There’s going to be hundreds of these around the place.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Total mess in Las Vegas for the F1. Red flag eight minutes into the first practice session, after a drain cover came unstuck and Carlos Sainz’s car hit it.

    Session cancelled. Not a good look.
    Seriously embarrassing for all involved. Two cars with broken chassis, and a failure that isn’t the work of an hour or two to fix. How can they declare 6km of track safe, when there was a failure like this after seven minutes of running?


    They cannot. Were there any support races beforehand?

    Although manhole cover issues do occur occasionally; ISTR Massa got caught out ne year at Monaco, who should have known what they were doing by then, and Button somewhere else. I think Baku had issues as well?

    In other news, no SH/SS launch today. Looks like the attempt may be 13.00 or so tomorrow.
    There’s no support races, as they can only close the roads for a few hours.

    Yes, it’s happened before a few times, and it’s always been chaos. TV showed a replay of Button hitting one in Monaco in 2007. It’s a problem with the cars producing so much downforce they act as a massive Hoover to anything that’s not bolted down.

    This one looks like the actual cover was bolted down, but the metal and concrete surround was the failure point, where the cars are well over 300km/h on track. There’s going to be hundreds of these around the place.

    Actually, and I might be wrong, I think there's a larger round manhole, with a little inspection/lifting cover within it. They may have welded down/fixed the main manhole, and not realised about the cover...
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    carnforth said:
    It's an astonishing article.

    She begins by acknowledging that "We lost in the Supreme Court because the judges determined that Rwanda cannot be trusted to fulfil the commitments we asked of them on non-refoulement ..."

    And then she says that, despite this, "Parliament is entitled to assert that Rwanda is safe without making any changes to our Rwanda partnership." (But she adds that some changes should be made, partly for presentational reasons.)

    And then she says the solution is to pass a law simply "disapplying" all our "relevant international obligations" and existing legislation, and excluding any kind of legal challenge to the government's actions.

    She makes the motivation for this as explicit as she could have done, by heading the paragraph "The Bill must enable flights before the next general election".

    I wonder whether she really thinks anything like that could get through Parliament in time to do that, but it only underlines her lack of political judgment that she's being so blatant about the bonfire of human rights being all about electioneering. And on top of it, she doesn't even try to dispute the Supreme Court's finding about the danger of people genuinely at risk being sent back home by Rwanda.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    The Tories do enjoy trying to break the constitution, but I think provoking a constitutional crisis for such pointless measures would deadlock the Lords and stop any other piece of legislation. Adding paralysis to incompetence would probably put the Tories below 15 percent.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Chris said:

    carnforth said:
    It's an astonishing article.

    She begins by acknowledging that "We lost in the Supreme Court because the judges determined that Rwanda cannot be trusted to fulfil the commitments we asked of them on non-refoulement ..."

    And then she says that, despite this, "Parliament is entitled to assert that Rwanda is safe without making any changes to our Rwanda partnership." (But she adds that some changes should be made, partly for presentational reasons.)

    And then she says the solution is to pass a law simply "disapplying" all our "relevant international obligations" and existing legislation, and excluding any kind of legal challenge to the government's actions.

    She makes the motivation for this as explicit as she could have done, by heading the paragraph "The Bill must enable flights before the next general election".

    I wonder whether she really thinks anything like that could get through Parliament in time to do that, but it only underlines her lack of political judgment that she's being so blatant about the bonfire of human rights being all about electioneering. And on top of it, she doesn't even try to dispute the Supreme Court's finding about the danger of people genuinely at risk being sent back home by Rwanda.
    It's not even about stopping die Boote at this point - Stupidly and Jenrickio have been very clear. The paramount priority of this government is to get one sedated and adult diapered fugee onto one flight (Extraordinary Rendition Class - no refreshments will be served) to Rwanda before the election. Then they can claim the Belgian Congo Solution is in place and all will be well if only the country will re-elect them because Starmer will cancel it.
  • NEW THREAD

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    edited November 2023
    I’ve just driven from central south Cambodia to the port of Sihanoukville in about 1 hour. Used to take 4-6 hours

    Why? Have a guess. A magnificent new highway, built by the Chinese

    In the last two years I have been on magnificent new Chinese highways in Cambodia, Egypt, Turkey and Sri Lanka. They are the new Romans
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Foxy said:

    I think this is another new one:
    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 46% (=)
    CON: 22% (-3)
    LDM: 11% (+1)
    RFM: 8% (+1)
    GRN: 7% (=)
    SNP: 3% (+1)

    Via @techneUK, 15-16 Nov.
    Changes w/ 8-9 Nov.

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1725313575214813606?t=4RH_ozM0ure_71UlfU27FQ&s=19

    Con on 52 seats by EC, Lab majority 372.

    Another triumphant poll for the World’s Greatest Reshuffle
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    carnforth said:



    What explains the rise? Physical long covid? Mental affects of the pandemic? Missed medical appointment leading to later intervention?

    (And why was it rising in 2019?)

    None of this necessarily requires new legislation, of course.

    It follows this curve:


    When I looked into this, roughly half the trouble the NHS is in (waiting lists + some other metrics), is just long term trend.

    I don't see any way out. Vicious circle now.
    Envy of the world, rNHS.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Cicero said:

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    The Tories do enjoy trying to break the constitution, but I think provoking a constitutional crisis for such pointless measures would deadlock the Lords and stop any other piece of legislation. Adding paralysis to incompetence would probably put the Tories below 15 percent.
    To my mind that is the really stupid thing about this.

    We know from polling evidence that whether they think it's right or wrong, most people don't think this scheme will work. It's obviously going to be very difficult if not impossible to proceed with it before the next election. Yet the government is allowing it to dominate the political agenda and to all appearances making it the first priority. And if it does develop into a constitutional crisis about suspending human rights legislation, it's far from clear whether that will do the Tories any good electorally anyway.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    Chris said:

    Cicero said:

    I wonder if the emergency Rwanda measures could be added to a finance bill, which the Lords has no power to amend or overturn.

    The Tories do enjoy trying to break the constitution, but I think provoking a constitutional crisis for such pointless measures would deadlock the Lords and stop any other piece of legislation. Adding paralysis to incompetence would probably put the Tories below 15 percent.
    To my mind that is the really stupid thing about this.

    We know from polling evidence that whether they think it's right or wrong, most people don't think this scheme will work. It's obviously going to be very difficult if not impossible to proceed with it before the next election. Yet the government is allowing it to dominate the political agenda and to all appearances making it the first priority. And if it does develop into a constitutional crisis about suspending human rights legislation, it's far from clear whether that will do the Tories any good electorally anyway.
    Cost of living and the economy is what people really care about.

    This is just a sideshow.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    A combination of drugs, depression, drugs, too many guns, drugs, and a somewhat outdated attitude towards drinking and driving.
    And drugs
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    edited November 2023
    Deleted
This discussion has been closed.