Does anyone have a good technical brief on exactly what went wrong with the Horizon system? What caused the accounting errors in the system?
I once asked the same question but I don't know why as I struggle to give a tiny, shiny fuck about the Post Office or its historical mis-deeds.
Sandpit (I think, apologies if it was somebody else) had a very good grasp of the technical details but I've forgotten all about it as it didn't involve cars or really expensive bikes.
It’s very simple.
You ring up a sale in a shop. The system should record that sale once. And only once. With all the details right.
The Horizon system recorded multiple copies of the same thing, phantom transactions. It was randomly doodling bullshit in the records.
The technical name for this area in IT is Transactionality. It is an utterly, utterly solved problem. Tools, frameworks, computer languages - all designed to do it for you, in many cases. Just follow standard practise.
Fucking it up was grotesque incompetence
A puzzle to me has always been: Was there not masses of data which would show up immediately on an old fashioned audit done by an old fashioned auditor - the sort that worries about whether that 37p should be under 'requisites' or 'sundry'. They still,exist. I know some.
That's a good question.
I've asked myself what I would have done if I had been one of these Subpostmasters and been confronted with an accusation I knew to be untrue. I have enough bookkeeping knowhow to run trial balances to show nothing was missing. I might even have called in a firm of local accounts to vet my work. At that point I would know for sure that it was the computer system at fault.
The problem then was that the PO would not brook this argument, and they would have brought the full force of their draconian powers down on me. They flatly refused to contemplate that Horizon could be faulty, and they aggressively pushed the line that the errors had to be down to dishonesty.
How many of us would have had the strength, tenacity and ability to resist?
What would your auditors audit when there were no records outside the flawed computer system?
I think you touch on the one point where the defenders of the Subpostmaster were weak.
I would have shown my figures to the PO and said 'OK, that's what I make it and you can see the trail. Now show me what you make it AND show me your audit trail.' They couldn't and wouldn't have been able to. Horizon quite simply made its numbers up.'
I reckon they may have backed off at that point....and gone off to attack more vulnerable prey.
Why would you even have your own figures outside of the computer system?
You wouldn't, unless you suspected the computer system was faulty. Then you might just do a manual check to satisfy yourself.
Trouble was that the PO investigators were programmed to disbelieve any such manual evidence.
No, aiui the trouble was there was no mechanism to do a manual check. Only the computer knew how many stamps you had received and sold, and postal orders, savings bank payments and so on. It might have been possible for the Post Office to compare figures from outside and notice it had sold ten times as many stamps as had been printed, but not at the subpostmaster level.
Management and prosecutors should spot quickly when out of the blue a whole load of SPMs are appearing to commit the same offence with no corroboration outside a single computer system. It's like a speed camera suddenly saying the old lady Nissan Micra drivers coming home from church are all driving at 80 mph in a 30 mph limit.
Ah, but one of the attractions of the new computer system was that it would root out fraud. In your analogy, a council that had just installed speed cameras would not be surprised or even unhappy when they caught speeding motorists. Finding lawbreakers was a feature, not a bug.
Alg's analogy works fine.
You do have a point though. Part of the problem was that the PO expected to find fraud so wasn't surprised when Horizon suggested it. Your example comes under strain however when you look at the sheer numbers involved. Even in your Council/Speeding example, you would think that somebody might smell a rat when the numbers exceeded all reasonable expectations.
Long before I became acquainted with the details I wondered why common sense did not alert the PO to the possibility that something somewhere might be terribly wrong, and needed checking. Now I appreciate that it was more than a failure of common sense. It was mischief, largely driven by self-interest.
At one point the PO did appoint an organistion to investigate the matter honestly to see if there was any possible explanation other than that the PO had an extraordinary number of dishonest Subpostmasters. That firm was called Second Sight. It quickly established that there were problems with Horizon. The PO ignored its findings, began to distance itself from the firm, and in due course dispensed with their services. In short, the PO refused to believe what it was saying once it was clear it was saying something the PO didn't want to hear.
This is why I have no sympathy for the scum. They knew what they were doing. They doubled down on their lies. Prison is too good for them.
The Post Office scandal is a bit like the Yorkshire Ripper hunt recently dramatised in ITV's The Long Shadow in that it was obvious where the investigation was going wrong but there was a strange rationality to all the wrong decisions.
As I posted the other day, this inquiry is pointless in the greater scheme of things, other than as a search for scapegoats. We already know what went wrong and who should be compensated. But lessons will not be learned. Which company is watching this horror show unfold and consequently looking for more diversity in its C-suite rather than just a Pride flag on its website once a year? Which is setting up a red team to interrogate corporate decisions? None. Just the opposite: get shot of anyone who is "not a team player".
Is that weird genius or terrible? I think probably terrible
Nor-folking idea
If you are familiar with the county, it makes perfect sense.
It shows the direction people should follow to escape from the sandy bits that are crumbling into the North Sea and how to get to the nice safe posh parts.
FWIW I would put this scandal about 3rd in recent times.
For me, Rotherham and associated scandals is by far the largest. Tens of thousands of young women and some young boys' lives utterly destroyed. It may be because I read victim impact statements a lot but the consequences for those who endure such torture is thankfully beyond imagining for most of us.
Secondly, I would rank the NHS contaminated blood scandal. 30K healthy people's lives curtailed and impacted by inept medical practice within the NHS, an organisation we nearly all rely upon. Shocking and with so many echoes in long running, unfocused public inquiries as the victims die.
I can't help feeling that no list of public scandals is really complete without the Met being on it but I would put the PO third.
I quite like the Lewisham Borough logo, which can be viewed as either a circle of people joining hands or a Saxon crown, a reference to Alfred the Great who was Lord of the Manor of Lewisham. Quite a nice mix of the modern with the historical, I think. The Fife logo does something a bit similar, with people holding hands doubling up as the Forth Bridge, which I also like. Nothing like a bit of local government signage.
Does anyone have a good technical brief on exactly what went wrong with the Horizon system? What caused the accounting errors in the system?
There could be some very useful lessons for other institutions, from a technical viewpoint. As well as all the obvious management, moral and legal viewpoints...
Basically it was a transactional XML system feeding into the master database, and transactions were getting missed in the transformation and importation process.
The whole system appeared to be badly specified in the first place and was put into production against the wishes of the PO’s own QA team, who still had hundreds of bugs outstanding.
I mean. Fucksake. YAWN
Imagine that the Knappers Gazette had special power to prosecute you for copy errors, and you'd done 10 years choke and had your assets confiscated for something they'd wrongly corrected.
After all, you managed to dredge up some empathy for that fucker Giles Coren.
Absolutely. Instead of getting enraged about some hypothetical non existent event get enraged about stuff that really is happening ie people being bankrupted or worse sent to jail for something they didn't do with the bods who caused this or covered it up getting off scot free.
I get sick and tired of the phrase 'lessons will be learned'. They never are. One scandal after another because senior people and governments brush it under the carpet.
As I have mentioned before I am involved in one of these. I don't put details on here so as not to bore you, but @NickPalmer and @Cyclefree are vaguely aware and Nick has kindly provided some help. Cross party support, a damning NAO report, a damning Parliamentary Accounts Committee report, 2 debates in Parliament, 3 attempts at a private members bill and 11 years on and still the Government blocks any resolution, although they do say 'Because of a change they have made it can't happen again'. That is of little consolation for the 3000 impacted by a Government cockup.
There are too many of these and the ones we know about (Windrush, PO, Blood transfusions, Equity Life, Hillsborough, etc) are just the tip of the iceberg. There are lots of smaller ones underneath.
And yet you ignore the biggest of all. The Asian Grooming Scandal with somewhere between 100,000-,1,000,000 underage girls raped, abused, tortured, kidnapped and sometimes even murdered - by racist gangs across the country. And those that tried to speak out were silenced or even prosecuted
Not just the biggest scandal in recent British history but one of the greatest scandals in the modern history of the western world. It dwarfs any post office scandal (which I am sure is awful, in itself)
i guess we all suffer from psychological lacunation, in different ways and for different reasons, eh?
God forbid we discuss anything on here that doesn’t interest you.
Have I ever told anyone to STOP talking about the Post Office scandal? Absolutely not. Good luck to anyone raising awareness or scrutinizing the miscreants, it is clearly important
It is, however, interesting that in his list of UK scandals @kjh left out the biggest of all, by far, and we can all speculate why
Weasel words. Of everyone who posts regularly on this board, only you could be described as part of the media elite. You write for a magazine that has the ear of, indeed was formerly edited by, the top echelons of the governing party. If it wasn’t a free gig substantially below your pay grade I’m sure any thread header that you deigned to write would be eagerly published on here.
Yet, for reasons best known to yourself, you decide to indulge your oppression fantasies by moaning that an anonymous poster on a message board has not highlighted a matter you think should be highlighted. Doubtless we are part of an elitist conspiracy designed to keep any discussion of multiculturalism, your latest hobby horse, suppressed. Despite the fact you do, and often boast about, writing pieces far beyond the limited readership of discussions on here.
I have written quite a few articles about the various child abuse scandals, the IICSA reports and, once again, the government's failure to do anything. @Leon goes on about Rotherham but the child abuse scandals are about much more than Rotherham.
I agree the headers we've had on this scandal are enlightening and contrasts with how poorly covered the issue is in the mainstream press.
It should be pretty simple for the government to:
1) Invalidate all prior prosecutions from the Post Office. The scandal is so widespread there is no need for a detailed examination of each case - the assumption should once again be innocence unless proven guilty again with what we know today.
2) Properly compensate everyone prosecuted.
3) Set-up an independent investigatory team with the task of prosecuting anyone who committed a crime in conjunction with this miscarriage of justice.
4) Fire the entire Post office Board and senior leadership and replacing them with independent voices given the task of cleaning out the stables, including actively helping with prosecutions against the former leadership of the Post Office.
I am available to run (3).
I can do a very reasonable deal on large Trebuchet to undertake 4)
I have strived - a bit - to comprehend the “Post Office scandal” and be suitably outraged - but I can’t. My eyes just glaze over. I suppress a yawn and move swiftly on
I think it’s the branding: I associate the words “post office” with standing in slow queues in fusty buildings behind old ladies sending packages to Newent. Or the place you get obscure forms on a drizzly Tuesday
They should have called it “the Fujitsu Attack” or the “Royal Mail Murders” and I’d pay more attention
Tut
Leon: people committed suicide. An innocent woman was jailed while pregnant. A 19 year old was jailed. People were bankrupted, lost homes, businesses. Marriages were destroyed. Families were shunned with children in school taunted about their dads being crooks. The human consequences of what happened were awful.
What the Post Office did to these people was evil. It was done by professionals to save their face, to make money, to get promotions and even when faced with the consequences, few have had the human decency to apologise.
This is above all a very human story. As all such scandals are - the human behaviours which lead to the wrongdoing and the consequences for other human beings.
That is the one thing I have learnt from my decades doing this stuff and the one thing I would like to get across to people reading this. If we forget that we lose sight of why this matters.
I was taught one encounters four types in public life/the workplace.
The Owl - who is both intelligent and ethical. The Fox - who is intelligent and unethical. The Sheep - who is unintelligent but ethical. The Donkey - who is unintelligent and unethical.
But for people like Cottam, I’d introduce a fifth category - amoeba. Those who posses no integrity and no functioning mental capacity.
I quite like the Lewisham Borough logo, which can be viewed as either a circle of people joining hands or a Saxon crown, a reference to Alfred the Great who was Lord of the Manor of Lewisham. Quite a nice mix of the modern with the historical, I think. The Fife logo does something a bit similar, with people holding hands doubling up as the Forth Bridge, which I also like. Nothing like a bit of local government signage.
I agree the headers we've had on this scandal are enlightening and contrasts with how poorly covered the issue is in the mainstream press.
It should be pretty simple for the government to:
1) Invalidate all prior prosecutions from the Post Office. The scandal is so widespread there is no need for a detailed examination of each case - the assumption should once again be innocence unless proven guilty again with what we know today.
2) Properly compensate everyone prosecuted.
3) Set-up an independent investigatory team with the task of prosecuting anyone who committed a crime in conjunction with this miscarriage of justice.
4) Fire the entire Post office Board and senior leadership and replacing them with independent voices given the task of cleaning out the stables, including actively helping with prosecutions against the former leadership of the Post Office.
Agreed. And....
5) Return to the Subpostmasters all the money extorted from them by the PO's ill-founded investigations, including of course interest.
There is no indication yet that the PO intends to do any such thing.
There's plenty of evidence for the owner to fire the entire board, and instruct a new one to make an admission of corporate (civil) liability. The first bit of that ought to have been some some time back, if only from the point of view of securing evidence which might otherwise be 'disappeared'.
Badenoch I am afraid also embodies the spirit of a "weak, weak, weak" government.
I have strived - a bit - to comprehend the “Post Office scandal” and be suitably outraged - but I can’t. My eyes just glaze over. I suppress a yawn and move swiftly on
I think it’s the branding: I associate the words “post office” with standing in slow queues in fusty buildings behind old ladies sending packages to Newent. Or the place you get obscure forms on a drizzly Tuesday
They should have called it “the Fujitsu Attack” or the “Royal Mail Murders” and I’d pay more attention
Tut
Leon: people committed suicide. An innocent woman was jailed while pregnant. A 19 year old was jailed. People were bankrupted, lost homes, businesses. Marriages were destroyed. Families were shunned with children in school taunted about their dads being crooks. The human consequences of what happened were awful.
What the Post Office did to these people was evil. It was done by professionals to save their face, to make money, to get promotions and even when faced with the consequences, few have had the human decency to apologise.
This is above all a very human story. As all such scandals are - the human behaviours which lead to the wrongdoing and the consequences for other human beings.
That is the one thing I have learnt from my decades doing this stuff and the one thing I would like to get across to people reading this. If we forget that we lose sight of why this matters.
I was taught one encounters four types in public life/the workplace.
The Owl - who is both intelligent and ethical. The Fox - who is intelligent and unethical. The Sheep - who is unintelligent but ethical. The Donkey - who is unintelligent and unethical.
But for people like Cottam, I’d introduce a fifth category - amoeba. Those who posses no integrity and no functioning mental capacity.
I think that lets the likes of Elaine Cottam off far too easily. They do function but are frankly indifferent as to the consequences of their actions provided it gives them another step on the ladder. Beneath contempt.
Are you kidding me? I don't want to go all @Anabobazina about this but self service tills are one of life's conveniences why on earth would you want to go back to queuing at check out behind someone doing their weekly shop.
lol. The official flag of the city of Belfast might literally be the worst flag in the world. And I’m not exaggerating
Has anyone seen a worse flag than THIS?
The left and right arrows are an innovative touch, which adds to the slightly surreal aspect. I rather like it.
It’s like they got together and deliberately planned to design the worst flag in history
“Put a triangle of weird meaningless white shapes on the top!”
“lol!”
“I know, how about a pointless bell in the corner?”
“Haha yes”
Etc
The bell - on a telltale red background - clearly tolls for climate change, and the 'meaningless' white shapes signify a ship generated aerosol intended to help mitigate its effects.
It can only be described as a woke flag, so no wonder you hate it.
Braverman’s reference to triumphalist marches designed to intimidate and her comparison with marches in Ulster was illuminating and interesting.
Even if you don’t agree she made an arguable point. And advanced the debate
Personally I agree. Orange marches are an expression of community power and a flex in the face of Ulster Catholics. The same goes for 100,000 people chanting “from the river to the sea”
Again, the outcry over her words seems out of all proportion to what she actually said. She seems to have a knack for winding up people into a silly froth
It could serve her well in years to come. As Thatcher said “when people attack you personally you know you’re winning the argument”
Everything she says is probably supported by around 40% of the electorate (at least).
lol. The official flag of the city of Belfast might literally be the worst flag in the world. And I’m not exaggerating
Has anyone seen a worse flag than THIS?
The left and right arrows are an innovative touch, which adds to the slightly surreal aspect. I rather like it.
It’s like they got together and deliberately planned to design the worst flag in history
“Put a triangle of weird meaningless white shapes on the top!”
“lol!”
“I know, how about a pointless bell in the corner?”
“Haha yes”
Etc
The bell - on a telltale red background - clearly tolls for climate change, and the 'meaningless' white shapes signify a ship generated aerosol intended to help mitigate its effects.
It can only be described as a woke flag, so no wonder you hate it.
I'm not sure if both of you are speaking ironically, but it dates from 1890.
I know Arrhenius spotted the global warming flag in 1850s, but to call the Belfast flag woke in 1890 is, erm, pushing out the boat rather a lot.
IanB2 - Thanks for your explanation of the price differentials for postage in the US and the UK.
(Two more details on postage costs in the US: Pre-sorted first-class mail costs less to send. Charities are charged less, so the Salvation Army can send me multiple letters over the year, asking for money.)
It’s the same here, because on the outward the pre-sorted mail can go through to despatch without having to be put through the IMP.
Braverman’s reference to triumphalist marches designed to intimidate and her comparison with marches in Ulster was illuminating and interesting.
Even if you don’t agree she made an arguable point. And advanced the debate
Personally I agree. Orange marches are an expression of community power and a flex in the face of Ulster Catholics. The same goes for 100,000 people chanting “from the river to the sea”
Again, the outcry over her words seems out of all proportion to what she actually said. She seems to have a knack for winding up people into a silly froth
It could serve her well in years to come. As Thatcher said “when people attack you personally you know you’re winning the argument”
Everything she says is probably supported by around 40% of the electorate (at least).
Evidence?
Here for example is something she said that is only supported by 6% of those polled.
Braverman’s reference to triumphalist marches designed to intimidate and her comparison with marches in Ulster was illuminating and interesting.
Even if you don’t agree she made an arguable point. And advanced the debate
Personally I agree. Orange marches are an expression of community power and a flex in the face of Ulster Catholics. The same goes for 100,000 people chanting “from the river to the sea”
Again, the outcry over her words seems out of all proportion to what she actually said. She seems to have a knack for winding up people into a silly froth
It could serve her well in years to come. As Thatcher said “when people attack you personally you know you’re winning the argument”
Everything she says is probably supported by around 40% of the electorate (at least).
Evidence?
Here for example is something she said that is only supported by 6% of those polled.
40 per cent Conservative implies 40 per cent of the electorate for the next Conservative leader.
Do have to laugh. Have successfully baited anti-EV freaks to swarm onto my YouTube channel. A lunatic surge in views, watch hours and subscribers yesterday evening, which has continued at an absurd pace for the whole of today.
They come in, watch my videos and post negative comments about Tesla and EVs. Lots of "woke" and "WEF" warnings, even a few anti-vaxxers. Which I happily respond to. But all they are doing is driving the algorithm to push my stuff to even more people.
I'm almost disappointed by yesterday's revenue. Despite being 171% higher than my previous best revenue day I wondered if it might be higher. Expect that today will be bigger again. All hail Daily Mail / GBeebies morons! They are very profitable if you can exploit them.
"anti-EV freaks"
Enough said... About them. And you.
This lot are freaks. They have been fed a diet of nonsense by the right wing media and won't drop it. They all say the same things - which are fact free. And then wander off into WEF paranoia.
It's frustrating to deal with these people, but ultimately it's good news that the vaccine/5G crazies have taken up EVs, 15 minute cities and LTNs as their next topic. No serious politician can oppose them without being grouped in with the conspiracy theorists.
Otoh, the boiler/heat pump debate seems to be a bit more salient in the general population, which is a shame. Even in the US there were heat pumps installations than boilers last year.
I don't mind. I knew what I was getting in for. A massive boost to JustGetATesla (on the back of what had already been a very successful October). They won't post comments forever, but as they like to argue and feel superior they may stick around for a bit.
The YouTube algorithm likes it when videos go viral and people swarm in and comment. And when you interact with their comments. So I'll get a huge boost in how it pushes my videos out, as well as a stack of cash from ad revenue.
I've also learned some video shooting / editing tricks from the channels I went baiting, so will improve my own production too.
OK, Rochdale, if you know so much about electric cars: I would really like my next car to be an electric. But I have a family of five. At the moment, our main family car is a VW Sharan, the glory of which is that there are three large seats in the back, so no arguments about who gets the crappy seat in the middle. Also, it has sliding rear doors, which are also great for extracting kids. But I haven't found any electric cars which have this feature: like most cars, they inexplicably appear to prioritise giving an arm rest and a cup holder to passengers 3 and 5 over giving passenger 4 a decent seat. Any ideas?
Are you kidding me? I don't want to go all @Anabobazina about this but self service tills are one of life's conveniences why on earth would you want to go back to queuing at check out behind someone doing their weekly shop.
Absolutely. I don't want to waste my life waiting in line behind some dozy twit who has bought the entire shop, is trying to use fifty vouchers, half of which are out of date, and has buried their purse/wallet five levels deep.
But... much as I'm a fan of the concept of automatic checkouts, the implementation in some shops is terrible. The ones in my local Co-op often freeze up for about a minute when I first touch the screen, and lag badly when scanning items. I get the impression the computer inside is woefully underpowered. They also shriek instructions incessantly in a loud, hectoring voice, and have more than once simply shut down on me. Tesco and Morrisons also need to improve their machines.
The big winner for me is M&S. My local store has some auto-checkouts that don't weigh items, they depend on a staff member watching over the machines to prevent theft. At a stroke that removes most of the issues and I can't remember ever having a major problem using one.
Not bad. Not as good as Cornwall but better than Norfolk
I like the Lincolnshire flag. It's (sort of) traditional.
Now if you want quirky (or different), take a look at Wiltshire's flag...
It makes no sense. None whatsoever. The chevrons don't even line up.
And well done to the twitchers amongst you for recognising a Great Bustard. It's the pigeon in the middle.
I remember seeing the Bustard (stuffed alas) in the Salisbury Museum many years ago.
Edit: the design makes instant sense to me. Downland, grass, chalk.
It's been reintroduced on Salisbury Plain, abbout 100 birds now apparently.
There's a female - nicknamed Gertrude - that potters amongst the stones at Stonehenge. Utterley bizarre, as they normally take flight if you get within about half a mile...
Honestly, a lot of these flags look like they were created by the Lord Lieutenant's/Governor's children with a pair of scissors, a box of coloured paper, and Prit stick, to keep them quiet on a wet Saturday afternoon.
Does anyone have a good technical brief on exactly what went wrong with the Horizon system? What caused the accounting errors in the system?
I once asked the same question but I don't know why as I struggle to give a tiny, shiny fuck about the Post Office or its historical mis-deeds.
Sandpit (I think, apologies if it was somebody else) had a very good grasp of the technical details but I've forgotten all about it as it didn't involve cars or really expensive bikes.
It’s very simple.
You ring up a sale in a shop. The system should record that sale once. And only once. With all the details right.
The Horizon system recorded multiple copies of the same thing, phantom transactions. It was randomly doodling bullshit in the records.
The technical name for this area in IT is Transactionality. It is an utterly, utterly solved problem. Tools, frameworks, computer languages - all designed to do it for you, in many cases. Just follow standard practise.
Fucking it up was grotesque incompetence
A puzzle to me has always been: Was there not masses of data which would show up immediately on an old fashioned audit done by an old fashioned auditor - the sort that worries about whether that 37p should be under 'requisites' or 'sundry'. They still,exist. I know some.
That's a good question.
I've asked myself what I would have done if I had been one of these Subpostmasters and been confronted with an accusation I knew to be untrue. I have enough bookkeeping knowhow to run trial balances to show nothing was missing. I might even have called in a firm of local accounts to vet my work. At that point I would know for sure that it was the computer system at fault.
The problem then was that the PO would not brook this argument, and they would have brought the full force of their draconian powers down on me. They flatly refused to contemplate that Horizon could be faulty, and they aggressively pushed the line that the errors had to be down to dishonesty.
How many of us would have had the strength, tenacity and ability to resist?
It's still a bit odd though. Horizon creates phantom invoices which mean that money is "missing" from the account, and therefore, presumably, stolen. But those invoices must relate to a product or service. In the case of a product it should surely have been possible to show that the subpostmaster didn't actually receive the product or service that the invoice relates to. For duplicate invoices there should also have been the same customer which may be possible in some cases but again should have been a point to check: did they actually receive those services/product?
What seems to have happened is that both the prosecutors and those advising the subpostmasters did not or could not conceive of the Horizon system being wrong or unreliable.
Which is bad enough. The criminality arises where people know that the system was not reliable and yet instructs prosecutors to proceed and to make representations to courts that it was reliable. I think we have got enough from the Inquiry already to identify at least some of those who did that.
You see? Any scandal that contains the phrase “duplicate invoices” in the first paragraph, followed by “subpostmaster” is not the stuff of Legendary Horrors
You kick off the story with "Arnold", a man in his mid 50s, a decent ordinary man who has done nothing at all wrong, tearfully waving to his kids as he goes down to start his time in prison. His wife isn't there to be waved at because she's already inside having been convicted of the same offence.
(Great piece, Cyclefree, btw)
Yes, that’s absolutely what this needs
It is the essence of story telling. You start off with a cruel but vivid human detail, a real person suffering as you describe - then maybe the moment of suicide, the swinging body in a homely old garage, the children weeping as they discover Dad hanging and dead, a letter from some fucker at the “Post Office” opened on a nearby table, you get the reader outraged and engaged, and you get them demanding to know WHY???
- and only then do you come in with the technical details, carefully diluted with more suffering, to keep it spicy
That’s what the narrative desperately requires. I’m quite serious
That is exactly what Nick Wallis does in his book. He starts with the story of Tracy - a 19 year old, engaged, taking on a role which she was enthused about - and being betrayed by an organisation she trusted.
Read it.
I’ve done a first skim-read of it, and am now reading through it again more slowly and in detail. It’s utterly horrifying.
Plenty of human stories, with professional and systemical indifference to them - just imagine what a writer from the best-selling weekly news magazine could produce if he got his head around it?
Serious journalism requires sustained hard work. It's the sustained bit that's usually the problem.
You need a statistician. I may be available in 2024/5 depending. I am very cheap.
Not bad. Not as good as Cornwall but better than Norfolk
I like the Lincolnshire flag. It's (sort of) traditional.
Now if you want quirky (or different), take a look at Wiltshire's flag...
It makes no sense. None whatsoever. The chevrons don't even line up.
And well done to the twitchers amongst you for recognising a Great Bustard. It's the pigeon in the middle.
I remember seeing the Bustard (stuffed alas) in the Salisbury Museum many years ago.
Edit: the design makes instant sense to me. Downland, grass, chalk.
It's been reintroduced on Salisbury Plain, abbout 100 birds now apparently.
There's a female - nicknamed Gertrude - that potters amongst the stones at Stonehenge. Utterley bizarre, as they normally take flight if you get within about half a mile...
Does anyone have a good technical brief on exactly what went wrong with the Horizon system? What caused the accounting errors in the system?
I once asked the same question but I don't know why as I struggle to give a tiny, shiny fuck about the Post Office or its historical mis-deeds.
Sandpit (I think, apologies if it was somebody else) had a very good grasp of the technical details but I've forgotten all about it as it didn't involve cars or really expensive bikes.
It’s very simple.
You ring up a sale in a shop. The system should record that sale once. And only once. With all the details right.
The Horizon system recorded multiple copies of the same thing, phantom transactions. It was randomly doodling bullshit in the records.
The technical name for this area in IT is Transactionality. It is an utterly, utterly solved problem. Tools, frameworks, computer languages - all designed to do it for you, in many cases. Just follow standard practise.
Fucking it up was grotesque incompetence
A puzzle to me has always been: Was there not masses of data which would show up immediately on an old fashioned audit done by an old fashioned auditor - the sort that worries about whether that 37p should be under 'requisites' or 'sundry'. They still,exist. I know some.
That's a good question.
I've asked myself what I would have done if I had been one of these Subpostmasters and been confronted with an accusation I knew to be untrue. I have enough bookkeeping knowhow to run trial balances to show nothing was missing. I might even have called in a firm of local accounts to vet my work. At that point I would know for sure that it was the computer system at fault.
The problem then was that the PO would not brook this argument, and they would have brought the full force of their draconian powers down on me. They flatly refused to contemplate that Horizon could be faulty, and they aggressively pushed the line that the errors had to be down to dishonesty.
How many of us would have had the strength, tenacity and ability to resist?
What would your auditors audit when there were no records outside the flawed computer system?
I think you touch on the one point where the defenders of the Subpostmaster were weak.
I would have shown my figures to the PO and said 'OK, that's what I make it and you can see the trail. Now show me what you make it AND show me your audit trail.' They couldn't and wouldn't have been able to. Horizon quite simply made its numbers up.'
I reckon they may have backed off at that point....and gone off to attack more vulnerable prey.
Why would you even have your own figures outside of the computer system?
You wouldn't, unless you suspected the computer system was faulty. Then you might just do a manual check to satisfy yourself.
Trouble was that the PO investigators were programmed to disbelieve any such manual evidence.
No, aiui the trouble was there was no mechanism to do a manual check. Only the computer knew how many stamps you had received and sold, and postal orders, savings bank payments and so on. It might have been possible for the Post Office to compare figures from outside and notice it had sold ten times as many stamps as had been printed, but not at the subpostmaster level.
Management and prosecutors should spot quickly when out of the blue a whole load of SPMs are appearing to commit the same offence with no corroboration outside a single computer system. It's like a speed camera suddenly saying the old lady Nissan Micra drivers coming home from church are all driving at 80 mph in a 30 mph limit.
Ah, but one of the attractions of the new computer system was that it would root out fraud. In your analogy, a council that had just installed speed cameras would not be surprised or even unhappy when they caught speeding motorists. Finding lawbreakers was a feature, not a bug.
Alg's analogy works fine.
You do have a point though. Part of the problem was that the PO expected to find fraud so wasn't surprised when Horizon suggested it. Your example comes under strain however when you look at the sheer numbers involved. Even in your Council/Speeding example, you would think that somebody might smell a rat when the numbers exceeded all reasonable expectations.
Long before I became acquainted with the details I wondered why common sense did not alert the PO to the possibility that something somewhere might be terribly wrong, and needed checking. Now I appreciate that it was more than a failure of common sense. It was mischief, largely driven by self-interest.
At one point the PO did appoint an organistion to investigate the matter honestly to see if there was any possible explanation other than that the PO had an extraordinary number of dishonest Subpostmasters. That firm was called Second Sight. It quickly established that there were problems with Horizon. The PO ignored its findings, began to distance itself from the firm, and in due course dispensed with their services. In short, the PO refused to believe what it was saying once it was clear it was saying something the PO didn't want to hear.
This is why I have no sympathy for the scum. They knew what they were doing. They doubled down on their lies. Prison is too good for them.
The Post Office scandal is a bit like the Yorkshire Ripper hunt recently dramatised in ITV's The Long Shadow in that it was obvious where the investigation was going wrong but there was a strange rationality to all the wrong decisions.
As I posted the other day, this inquiry is pointless in the greater scheme of things, other than as a search for scapegoats. We already know what went wrong and who should be compensated. But lessons will not be learned. Which company is watching this horror show unfold and consequently looking for more diversity in its C-suite rather than just a Pride flag on its website once a year? Which is setting up a red team to interrogate corporate decisions? None. Just the opposite: get shot of anyone who is "not a team player".
That was a good show, but it brought to mind a cartoon, the name of which escapes me, where the "genius" detective always bungles the crime but gets the credit for his "stupid" sidekick solving them.
I thought they laid it on a bit thick regarding the women answering the phones being cast in the role of the ignored sidekick, who knew all along but weren't asked their opinion. Obviously the men in charge were incompetent misogynists, it just seemed to be a bit too black and white. Maybe it was though
Braverman’s reference to triumphalist marches designed to intimidate and her comparison with marches in Ulster was illuminating and interesting.
Even if you don’t agree she made an arguable point. And advanced the debate
Personally I agree. Orange marches are an expression of community power and a flex in the face of Ulster Catholics. The same goes for 100,000 people chanting “from the river to the sea”
Again, the outcry over her words seems out of all proportion to what she actually said. She seems to have a knack for winding up people into a silly froth
It could serve her well in years to come. As Thatcher said “when people attack you personally you know you’re winning the argument”
Everything she says is probably supported by around 40% of the electorate (at least).
Evidence?
Here for example is something she said that is only supported by 6% of those polled.
40 per cent Conservative implies 40 per cent of the electorate for the next Conservative leader.
Although only 8% of Cons think it's a Lifestyle choice for most. But... Conservative voters ≠ Conservative members of course, so you may be right.
Not bad. Not as good as Cornwall but better than Norfolk
I like the Lincolnshire flag. It's (sort of) traditional.
Now if you want quirky (or different), take a look at Wiltshire's flag...
It makes no sense. None whatsoever. The chevrons don't even line up.
And well done to the twitchers amongst you for recognising a Great Bustard. It's the pigeon in the middle.
I remember seeing the Bustard (stuffed alas) in the Salisbury Museum many years ago.
Edit: the design makes instant sense to me. Downland, grass, chalk.
It's been reintroduced on Salisbury Plain, abbout 100 birds now apparently.
There's a female - nicknamed Gertrude - that potters amongst the stones at Stonehenge. Utterley bizarre, as they normally take flight if you get within about half a mile...
Just bizarre. Didn't know Gertrude was a thing as I was walking up to the stones a few years ago, going "What the....."
Female is slighter, but the male is the world's heaviest flying bird. Up to 46 lbs. With that much white meat, hardly a surprise they became extinct here.
Braverman’s reference to triumphalist marches designed to intimidate and her comparison with marches in Ulster was illuminating and interesting.
Even if you don’t agree she made an arguable point. And advanced the debate
Personally I agree. Orange marches are an expression of community power and a flex in the face of Ulster Catholics. The same goes for 100,000 people chanting “from the river to the sea”
Again, the outcry over her words seems out of all proportion to what she actually said. She seems to have a knack for winding up people into a silly froth
It could serve her well in years to come. As Thatcher said “when people attack you personally you know you’re winning the argument”
Everything she says is probably supported by around 40% of the electorate (at least).
Evidence?
Here for example is something she said that is only supported by 6% of those polled.
On the whole that is a pretty compassionate set of responses. FWIW it seems to me just obvious it depends what you mean by choice - an inevitably contested concept. On its ordinary meaning - we are all free and can always choose even when it is difficult, as long as there isn't a gun at our back - the real answer is that some 'choose' it and some don't. As to the actuality, choice is a metaphysical concept not open to empirical analysis, which makes it a convenient hiding place.
There appears to be variations of the St Albans cross- this is the Mercian version flown at Tamworth Castle, whilst the version in St Albans itself is lighter blue and yellow.
A flag that at least has the merit that, shown it blind, a reasonable number of people should be able to guess….
Bit Cowesist, though. I'd be complaining if I lived in Freshwater.
With all that sunshine, lovely sandy beaches, and beautiful views, really you shouldn’t. You could have found yourself living in Scotland, after all.
Nice pic, with Freshwater Redoubt, Tennyson Down and all. Though the rocket test site some of us were discussing is in the dead groune beyond. And Alum Bay in the distance.
Comments
As I posted the other day, this inquiry is pointless in the greater scheme of things, other than as a search for scapegoats. We already know what went wrong and who should be compensated. But lessons will not be learned. Which company is watching this horror show unfold and consequently looking for more diversity in its C-suite rather than just a Pride flag on its website once a year? Which is setting up a red team to interrogate corporate decisions? None. Just the opposite: get shot of anyone who is "not a team player".
It shows the direction people should follow to escape from the sandy bits that are crumbling into the North Sea and how to get to the nice safe posh parts.
I rather like it.
For me, Rotherham and associated scandals is by far the largest. Tens of thousands of young women and some young boys' lives utterly destroyed. It may be because I read victim impact statements a lot but the consequences for those who endure such torture is thankfully beyond imagining for most of us.
Secondly, I would rank the NHS contaminated blood scandal. 30K healthy people's lives curtailed and impacted by inept medical practice within the NHS, an organisation we nearly all rely upon. Shocking and with so many echoes in long running, unfocused public inquiries as the victims die.
I can't help feeling that no list of public scandals is really complete without the Met being on it but I would put the PO third.
A couple of intriguing ideas in this story.
Recognition of climate refugees.
Can a country exist once its territory is permanently flooded.
“Put a triangle of weird meaningless white shapes
on the top!”
“lol!”
“I know, how about a pointless bell in the corner?”
“Haha yes”
Etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta#
The Owl - who is both intelligent and ethical.
The Fox - who is intelligent and unethical.
The Sheep - who is unintelligent but ethical.
The Donkey - who is unintelligent and unethical.
But for people like Cottam, I’d introduce a fifth category - amoeba. Those who posses no integrity and no functioning mental capacity.
The first bit of that ought to have been some some time back, if only from the point of view of securing evidence which might otherwise be 'disappeared'.
Badenoch I am afraid also embodies the spirit of a "weak, weak, weak" government.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/10/booths-supermarkets-to-ditch-self-checkouts-in-north-of-england-stores
Let's hope this starts to spread.
Hahahahah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=545DSd0hV3M
It can only be described as a woke flag, so no wonder you hate it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Sicily#/media/File:Sicilian_Flag.svg
Now if you want quirky (or different), take a look at Wiltshire's flag...
It makes no sense. None whatsoever. The chevrons don't even line up.
And well done to the twitchers amongst you for recognising a Great Bustard. It's the pigeon in the middle.
I know Arrhenius spotted the global warming flag in 1850s, but to call the Belfast flag woke in 1890 is, erm, pushing out the boat rather a lot.
https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/flags/belfast-flag/#:~:text=The Belfast Flag is a,extends into neighbouring County Down.
Edit: based on a pre-existing coat of arms, so complaints to the College of Heralds or whoever does it in Ireland.
Here for example is something she said that is only supported by 6% of those polled.
Edit: the design makes instant sense to me. Downland, grass, chalk.
But... much as I'm a fan of the concept of automatic checkouts, the implementation in some shops is terrible. The ones in my local Co-op often freeze up for about a minute when I first touch the screen, and lag badly when scanning items. I get the impression the computer inside is woefully underpowered. They also shriek instructions incessantly in a loud, hectoring voice, and have more than once simply shut down on me. Tesco and Morrisons also need to improve their machines.
The big winner for me is M&S. My local store has some auto-checkouts that don't weigh items, they depend on a staff member watching over the machines to prevent theft. At a stroke that removes most of the issues and I can't remember ever having a major problem using one.
https://britainsbestguides.org/blogs/great-bustard-stonehenge/
I thought they laid it on a bit thick regarding the women answering the phones being cast in the role of the ignored sidekick, who knew all along but weren't asked their opinion. Obviously the men in charge were incompetent misogynists, it just seemed to be a bit too black and white. Maybe it was though
Great flag!
NEW THREAD
Female is slighter, but the male is the world's heaviest flying bird. Up to 46 lbs. With that much white meat, hardly a surprise they became extinct here.
There appears to be variations of the St Albans cross- this is the Mercian version flown at Tamworth Castle, whilst the version in St Albans itself is lighter blue and yellow.
Shetland:
Durham:
Essex: