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Has Sunak buggered up the boundary changes? – politicalbetting.com

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  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    Carnyx said:

    My liberal tendencies are always tested this time of year by the fireworks.

    Ban the lot of em outside of organised displays and licensed community events, I say.

    Bah humbug.

    Given it's anti-RC sectarianism, I can't imagine why it is allowed to persist.
    In the interests of religious balance, Lewes should put an effigy of Jeffrey Donaldson on top of their bonfire.
    Well they did Ian Paisley back in the 80s I believe.
    IRC Paisley had voiced his approval of burning the pontiff's effigy, so the following year he was designated as an enemy of bonfire and his effigy was burnt.

    I witnessed the burning of The Man from The Pru at Lewes, after The Prudential had refused to cover one of the bonfire societies.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037
    AlistairM said:

    Leon said:

    And here we are. October 2023


    “The situation at the airport in Dagestan, Russia is still not yet under control.
    Preparations are underway for the evacuation of all the Jewish community in the Republic (around 400 members)”

    https://x.com/erezneumark/status/1718731521710838154?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    One of Russia's main propagandists is Jewish - Solovyov. I wonder what he will be making of this. Interesting choices ahead for him.
    Propagandists are very good at disassociating themselves from whatever they are required to say, to secure personal safety.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,817
    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,682
    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Plastic lawns should be banned.

    The bar for the government banning things needs to be fairly high, I'm afraid. And I'm not sure that your personal dislike of astroturf is enough.
    On the contrary. It's utterly ****ing outrageous. Water runoff, microplastics ditto, damage done to what's left of the ecosystem, the need to replace every 15 or whatever years ... you'd be better with letting the front garden go to weed.
    They are disastrous. And there's continuing pressure to build (and i mean build - you don't just roll them over bare earth) artificial "all weather" (except they arent') football pitches all over the place. And when they are done they can't be recycled. Dumped into landfill. Tonnes and tonnes of material. Should be banned.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037

    Dagestan is of course the most southerly Russian republic and borders Azerbeijan. Would Turkey/Azer support Islamists in the Caucasus?

    A resurgent Turkey could be a major problem for a weakened Russia.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/erdogan-address-pro-palestinian-rally-eve-turkeys-centenary-2023-10-28/

    "Israel has been openly committing war crimes for 22 days, but the Western leaders cannot even call on Israel for a ceasefire, let alone react to it," Erdogan told the crowd in Istanbul, who waved Palestinian flags.

    "We will tell the whole world that Israel is a war criminal. We are making preparations for this. We will declare Israel a war criminal," he said.

    In an hour-long speech, Erdogan also repeated his assertion that Hamas was not a terrorist organisation, describing Israel as an occupier.
    NATO member Erdogan!
    I think he's just agreed to send the Sweden NATO membership to his parliament, so he's probably feeling he has bought himself quite a bit of leeway with allies to step his own path for a bit again.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622
    On the excellent recommendation of @TimS I went to this place today

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Romana_del_Casale

    One of the greatest villas of the late Roman Empire. The mosaics are absolutely mind blowing. The whole vast building, with its exquisite fountains and courtly bath complex, shows that even in the 4th century, in relatively distant rural Sicily, Rome could conjure levels of civilization that took 1400 years to regain, once Rome collapsed

    There was a poignant placard by one mosaic which read - ‘the mosaics were preserved under layers of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles from the later medieval era’

    I fear that is where we might be headed. Back to an era of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,019

    Latest from Humza Yousaf.

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1718322742972342750

    "Millions across the world have taken to the streets - in Scotland, the UK, USA, in Tel Aviv - and many more countries across the world demanding peace. They are the conscience of our world, I hope they are heard and humanity prevails. Blessed are the peacemakers."

    We all get that his inlaws are trapped in Gaza. But do we really need to see encouragement given to those who have "taken to the streets." Is that helping? Or just raising the temperature?

    He is a total fcukwit
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,863
    edited October 2023
    HAS SUNAK BUGGERED UP THE BOUNDARY CHANGES? ER...NO

    What an embarrassment of a thread....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,019
    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    I told you earlier the Russians were the worst bunch on the planet, evidence appears immediately.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037

    Quite worrying scenes from Makhachkala airport in Dagestan:

    https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1718696622698135612

    There are reports the Russian military might send troops in. Note that Russian troops have not got a brilliant track record at resolving such situations peacefully...

    They should at least have positive morale compared to other units, not presently being stationed in an active warzone. A bit of pummelling locals may appeal by comparison.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,817
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,235

    Carnyx said:

    My liberal tendencies are always tested this time of year by the fireworks.

    Ban the lot of em outside of organised displays and licensed community events, I say.

    Bah humbug.

    Given it's anti-RC sectarianism, I can't imagine why it is allowed to persist.
    The number of RCs I know who enthusiastically celebrate Bonfire Night… I’ve even pointed out the irony. But the kids love it apparently.
    In 1605 of course Roman Catholic worship was illegal in England and Scotland so times have changed somewhat since then.

    It also should be remembered Fawkes wanted to blow up the King and Parliament, so there is still reason to celebrate that plot being foiled
  • Latest from Humza Yousaf.

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1718322742972342750

    "Millions across the world have taken to the streets - in Scotland, the UK, USA, in Tel Aviv - and many more countries across the world demanding peace. They are the conscience of our world, I hope they are heard and humanity prevails. Blessed are the peacemakers."

    We all get that his inlaws are trapped in Gaza. But do we really need to see encouragement given to those who have "taken to the streets." Is that helping? Or just raising the temperature?

    Not sure they can really be described as "the conscience of the world" either given some of the chants and behaviour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,716
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    My liberal tendencies are always tested this time of year by the fireworks.

    Ban the lot of em outside of organised displays and licensed community events, I say.

    Bah humbug.

    Given it's anti-RC sectarianism, I can't imagine why it is allowed to persist.
    The number of RCs I know who enthusiastically celebrate Bonfire Night… I’ve even pointed out the irony. But the kids love it apparently.
    In 1605 of course Roman Catholic worship was illegal in England and Scotland so times have changed somewhat since then.

    It also should be remembered Fawkes wanted to blow up the King and Parliament, so there is still reason to celebrate that plot being foiled
    ...or commiserate?...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037

    Latest from Humza Yousaf.

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1718322742972342750

    "Millions across the world have taken to the streets - in Scotland, the UK, USA, in Tel Aviv - and many more countries across the world demanding peace. They are the conscience of our world, I hope they are heard and humanity prevails. Blessed are the peacemakers."

    We all get that his inlaws are trapped in Gaza. But do we really need to see encouragement given to those who have "taken to the streets." Is that helping? Or just raising the temperature?

    Not sure they can really be described as "the conscience of the world" either given some of the chants and behaviour.
    The conscience of the world cannot avoid the occasional bit of support for murderous anti-semitism, apparently it's just so difficult to not slip some of that in. Those stickers celebrating Hamas paratroopers or signs wanting to 'clean up the world', just unavoidable, I am sure.

    Still, it's only a small percentage of the whole, supposedly, so that makes it all fine, right?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,844

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Plastic lawns should be banned.

    The bar for the government banning things needs to be fairly high, I'm afraid. And I'm not sure that your personal dislike of astroturf is enough.
    On the contrary. It's utterly ****ing outrageous. Water runoff, microplastics ditto, damage done to what's left of the ecosystem, the need to replace every 15 or whatever years ... you'd be better with letting the front garden go to weed.
    They are disastrous. And there's continuing pressure to build (and i mean build - you don't just roll them over bare earth) artificial "all weather" (except they arent') football pitches all over the place. And when they are done they can't be recycled. Dumped into landfill. Tonnes and tonnes of material. Should be banned.
    Get covered with rotting leaves this time of year and begin to stink. So not even the low maintenance the owners want. One of the worst gardening trends of all time.
  • Latest from Humza Yousaf.

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1718322742972342750

    "Millions across the world have taken to the streets - in Scotland, the UK, USA, in Tel Aviv - and many more countries across the world demanding peace. They are the conscience of our world, I hope they are heard and humanity prevails. Blessed are the peacemakers."

    We all get that his inlaws are trapped in Gaza. But do we really need to see encouragement given to those who have "taken to the streets." Is that helping? Or just raising the temperature?

    Those who have taken to the streets demanding the release of hostages as a first step, that seems entirely reasonable?

    The others? Not so much.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Plastic lawns should be banned.

    The bar for the government banning things needs to be fairly high, I'm afraid. And I'm not sure that your personal dislike of astroturf is enough.
    On the contrary. It's utterly ****ing outrageous. Water runoff, microplastics ditto, damage done to what's left of the ecosystem, the need to replace every 15 or whatever years ... you'd be better with letting the front garden go to weed.
    They are disastrous. And there's continuing pressure to build (and i mean build - you don't just roll them over bare earth) artificial "all weather" (except they arent') football pitches all over the place. And when they are done they can't be recycled. Dumped into landfill. Tonnes and tonnes of material. Should be banned.
    Get covered with rotting leaves this time of year and begin to stink. So not even the low maintenance the owners want. One of the worst gardening trends of all time.
    Why not just paint concrete green?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,817
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,246
    I say we take-off and nuke the whole damn place from orbit.

    Only way to be sure.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,139

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    Rather sadly, both of you are right. Oh, I am Captain Cheerful tonight :)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,713

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,817

    Cyclefree said:

    Plastic lawns should be banned.

    In all this, ah, "excitement" these last few days, I forgot to tell you all that Mum won Redbridge in Bloom (front garden container category) after re-entering for the first time since 2019 (which she also won)!
    Well, Redbridge still haven't updated their website with this year's winners, so I supplied some pics of my own!



    I bet she couldn't container-self.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622
    edited October 2023
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    I told you earlier the Russians were the worst bunch on the planet, evidence appears immediately.
    These are Turkic Muslims from Dagestan. Not Slavic Russians from Russia
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    That really depends what it is framenting into, and the extent and severity of the fragmentation. Some kind pf peaceful but dystopic hegemony would not be very pleasant, but neither would a hundred years of utter chaos, so as far as the range goes I don't think it's automatically better if it moves one way up or down.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,392
    So far today I have seen England embarrassing themselves at the cricket. I have seen Man U thrashed 0-3 (and frankly it wasn't that close). I am not feeling great about Hamilton.
  • I say we take-off and nuke the whole damn place from orbit.

    Only way to be sure.

    Hey, Casino, don't worry! Me and my squad of Ultimate Starmer Fans will protect you! Check it out! Independently targeting particle beam phalanx. Vwap! Fry half a Parliamentary constituency with this puppy. We got tactical smart missiles, phased plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, we got sonic electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, sharp sticks, election leaflets, dodgy bar charts...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622
    kle4 said:

    AlistairM said:

    Leon said:

    And here we are. October 2023


    “The situation at the airport in Dagestan, Russia is still not yet under control.
    Preparations are underway for the evacuation of all the Jewish community in the Republic (around 400 members)”

    https://x.com/erezneumark/status/1718731521710838154?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    One of Russia's main propagandists is Jewish - Solovyov. I wonder what he will be making of this. Interesting choices ahead for him.
    Propagandists are very good at disassociating themselves from whatever they are required to say, to secure personal safety.
    A lot of oligarchs are Jewish, too. Not least Abramovich
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037

    Carnyx said:

    My liberal tendencies are always tested this time of year by the fireworks.

    Ban the lot of em outside of organised displays and licensed community events, I say.

    Bah humbug.

    Given it's anti-RC sectarianism, I can't imagine why it is allowed to persist.
    The number of RCs I know who enthusiastically celebrate Bonfire Night… I’ve even pointed out the irony. But the kids love it apparently.
    It's like athiests belting out God Saves The King, the literal act is not always that significant as a part of it. Outside of a few rather, er, unique, areas, the anti-RC sentiment is not really the focus after all.
  • kle4 said:

    Latest from Humza Yousaf.

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1718322742972342750

    "Millions across the world have taken to the streets - in Scotland, the UK, USA, in Tel Aviv - and many more countries across the world demanding peace. They are the conscience of our world, I hope they are heard and humanity prevails. Blessed are the peacemakers."

    We all get that his inlaws are trapped in Gaza. But do we really need to see encouragement given to those who have "taken to the streets." Is that helping? Or just raising the temperature?

    Not sure they can really be described as "the conscience of the world" either given some of the chants and behaviour.
    The conscience of the world cannot avoid the occasional bit of support for murderous anti-semitism, apparently it's just so difficult to not slip some of that in. Those stickers celebrating Hamas paratroopers or signs wanting to 'clean up the world', just unavoidable, I am sure.

    Still, it's only a small percentage of the whole, supposedly, so that makes it all fine, right?
    Oh yes, it is all ok, their hearts are in the right place and, being the conscience of the world, well, they must be right, right?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,580
    ….
  • kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    My liberal tendencies are always tested this time of year by the fireworks.

    Ban the lot of em outside of organised displays and licensed community events, I say.

    Bah humbug.

    Given it's anti-RC sectarianism, I can't imagine why it is allowed to persist.
    The number of RCs I know who enthusiastically celebrate Bonfire Night… I’ve even pointed out the irony. But the kids love it apparently.
    It's like athiests belting out God Saves The King, the literal act is not always that significant as a part of it. Outside of a few rather, er, unique, areas, the anti-RC sentiment is not really the focus after all.
    "God Save the King"? What about the rest of us plebs? :lol:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037

    kle4 said:

    Latest from Humza Yousaf.

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1718322742972342750

    "Millions across the world have taken to the streets - in Scotland, the UK, USA, in Tel Aviv - and many more countries across the world demanding peace. They are the conscience of our world, I hope they are heard and humanity prevails. Blessed are the peacemakers."

    We all get that his inlaws are trapped in Gaza. But do we really need to see encouragement given to those who have "taken to the streets." Is that helping? Or just raising the temperature?

    Not sure they can really be described as "the conscience of the world" either given some of the chants and behaviour.
    The conscience of the world cannot avoid the occasional bit of support for murderous anti-semitism, apparently it's just so difficult to not slip some of that in. Those stickers celebrating Hamas paratroopers or signs wanting to 'clean up the world', just unavoidable, I am sure.

    Still, it's only a small percentage of the whole, supposedly, so that makes it all fine, right?
    Oh yes, it is all ok, their hearts are in the right place and, being the conscience of the world, well, they must be right, right?
    Nailed it.

    Like all those passionate anti-racists, who cannot have done anything racist because they are anti-racist, you see? Stands to reason.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,817

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,458
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Latest from Humza Yousaf.

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1718322742972342750

    "Millions across the world have taken to the streets - in Scotland, the UK, USA, in Tel Aviv - and many more countries across the world demanding peace. They are the conscience of our world, I hope they are heard and humanity prevails. Blessed are the peacemakers."

    We all get that his inlaws are trapped in Gaza. But do we really need to see encouragement given to those who have "taken to the streets." Is that helping? Or just raising the temperature?

    Not sure they can really be described as "the conscience of the world" either given some of the chants and behaviour.
    The conscience of the world cannot avoid the occasional bit of support for murderous anti-semitism, apparently it's just so difficult to not slip some of that in. Those stickers celebrating Hamas paratroopers or signs wanting to 'clean up the world', just unavoidable, I am sure.

    Still, it's only a small percentage of the whole, supposedly, so that makes it all fine, right?
    Oh yes, it is all ok, their hearts are in the right place and, being the conscience of the world, well, they must be right, right?
    Nailed it.

    Like all those passionate anti-racists, who cannot have done anything racist because they are anti-racist, you see? Stands to reason.
    They’re the anti-racists, the good guys with good thoughts, even when they’re being blantantly racist they’re still the anti-racists.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,682
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622
    Reports of deaths in the Dagestan pogrom manque. Unconfirmed
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,844

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    Perhaps a more generalised dark ages.
  • Have Oxfam got the balance right? Seen this on my FB feed just now:

    𝐖𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐧 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐯𝐢𝐨𝐥𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐚𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐈𝐬𝐫𝐚𝐞𝐥𝐢 𝐜𝐢𝐯𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧𝐬 𝐩𝐚𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐮𝐫𝐞.
    Please sign our petition and make your voice heard. Together we’re calling on the Foreign Secretary to ensure:
    ⚠️ An immediate ceasefire
    ⚠️ Urgent access to food, water and humanitarian aid for civilians
    ⚠️ A real commitment to lasting peace for all, with justice, dignity and a future for Palestinian and Israeli people
    ⚠️ Anyone held captive must be released.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
  • Latest from Humza Yousaf.

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1718322742972342750

    "Millions across the world have taken to the streets - in Scotland, the UK, USA, in Tel Aviv - and many more countries across the world demanding peace. They are the conscience of our world, I hope they are heard and humanity prevails. Blessed are the peacemakers."

    We all get that his inlaws are trapped in Gaza. But do we really need to see encouragement given to those who have "taken to the streets." Is that helping? Or just raising the temperature?

    Meanwhile millions across the world have taken to the streets ... demanding a pint of milk, two lamb chops and a bag of potatoes. How to balance the the concerns of demonstrators against the concerns of everyone else?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037
    edited October 2023

    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    My liberal tendencies are always tested this time of year by the fireworks.

    Ban the lot of em outside of organised displays and licensed community events, I say.

    Bah humbug.

    Given it's anti-RC sectarianism, I can't imagine why it is allowed to persist.
    The number of RCs I know who enthusiastically celebrate Bonfire Night… I’ve even pointed out the irony. But the kids love it apparently.
    It's like athiests belting out God Saves The King, the literal act is not always that significant as a part of it. Outside of a few rather, er, unique, areas, the anti-RC sentiment is not really the focus after all.
    "God Save the King"? What about the rest of us plebs? :lol:
    I was reading a book set in the 13th century this week, and the series is usually a bit light hearted, but it felt like it got a bit real for the educated, wealthy, noble, protagonist, when speaking to a local serf uninterested in the murder of a corrupt, vicious local priest.

    There's no justice for the poor. We're born, we suffer, and we die, and no one remembers us afterwards.

    That's what we plebs shall get my friend. So no need for a song for us as well.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Not true. Pax Brittanica was a real thing. The UK was not powerful enough to rule the world entirely, but the Royal Navy was strong enough to keep the peace around the globe (in a way that suited us, of course)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,713

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Collectively Europe did.

    It really is naive to think that the decline of American power and the delegitimising of all things Western will herald a return to those days.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    Like the old line that it is not terrifying to hear "I am from the government and I'm here to help", but instead "There is no government and I'm here to kill you".

    Of course, complete anarchy is probably not what is in mind for the end of a particular hegemony, but even assuming it works out well in the end, with some kind of balance (though I'd think a newer one would arise instead), it doesn't make the intervening period very comfortable, as those in areas which are less than hegemonic could tell us.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Latest from Humza Yousaf.

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1718322742972342750

    "Millions across the world have taken to the streets - in Scotland, the UK, USA, in Tel Aviv - and many more countries across the world demanding peace. They are the conscience of our world, I hope they are heard and humanity prevails. Blessed are the peacemakers."

    We all get that his inlaws are trapped in Gaza. But do we really need to see encouragement given to those who have "taken to the streets." Is that helping? Or just raising the temperature?

    Not sure they can really be described as "the conscience of the world" either given some of the chants and behaviour.
    The conscience of the world cannot avoid the occasional bit of support for murderous anti-semitism, apparently it's just so difficult to not slip some of that in. Those stickers celebrating Hamas paratroopers or signs wanting to 'clean up the world', just unavoidable, I am sure.

    Still, it's only a small percentage of the whole, supposedly, so that makes it all fine, right?
    Oh yes, it is all ok, their hearts are in the right place and, being the conscience of the world, well, they must be right, right?
    Nailed it.

    Like all those passionate anti-racists, who cannot have done anything racist because they are anti-racist, you see? Stands to reason.
    I mentioned this a while back and @algarkirk also has picked up on it that much of the 'conscience of the world' crowd bears an uncanny resemblance to the Calvinists of the 16th Century who believed that God had already selected those who were saved and what you did had no effect on your salvation.

    In their modern day minds, these people believe that chanting support for an organisation that has just butchered so many civilians is fine because they are 'naturally' good so any action they do, by its very nature, must also be good even if it seems abhorrent to the 'unsaved' / 'unchosen'
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    I told you earlier the Russians were the worst bunch on the planet, evidence appears immediately.
    These are Turkic Muslims from Dagestan. Not Slavic Russians from Russia
    It's not just the mob at the airport. There are stories of a hotel where Jews are staying being besieged, a Jewish cultural centre being set alight and a rally demanding that all Jews be evicted. Presumably to Israel where the same people can accuse them of being settler-colonialists.

    Meanwhile shouts of "intifada" on the streets of London.

    There is much malice in the world. Not much sign of any sort of conscience.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,566

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Peaceful?

    That’s Jedi Master level “from a certain point of view”

    https://youtu.be/2nO0uJenOgw?si=-hU9hr9-ywGk-QZm
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Surely it was subject to European hegemony, there just wasn't a single superpower?
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,008

    Have Oxfam got the balance right? Seen this on my FB feed just now:

    𝐖𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐧 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐯𝐢𝐨𝐥𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐚𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐈𝐬𝐫𝐚𝐞𝐥𝐢 𝐜𝐢𝐯𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧𝐬 𝐩𝐚𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐮𝐫𝐞.
    Please sign our petition and make your voice heard. Together we’re calling on the Foreign Secretary to ensure:
    ⚠️ An immediate ceasefire
    ⚠️ Urgent access to food, water and humanitarian aid for civilians
    ⚠️ A real commitment to lasting peace for all, with justice, dignity and a future for Palestinian and Israeli people
    ⚠️ Anyone held captive must be released.

    Seems a reasonable position to take.

    However, I think Israel wants to degrade Hamas' capabilities severely. And Hamas won't abide by any ceasefire other than to the extent it can't yet strike, nor will it release hostages en masse. So the probability is around zero right now.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,817
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    This isn't logical. There was no hegemon in the days of the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, or the Industrial Revolution.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,313
    edited October 2023

    Have Oxfam got the balance right? Seen this on my FB feed just now:

    𝐖𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐧 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐯𝐢𝐨𝐥𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐚𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐈𝐬𝐫𝐚𝐞𝐥𝐢 𝐜𝐢𝐯𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧𝐬 𝐩𝐚𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐮𝐫𝐞.
    Please sign our petition and make your voice heard. Together we’re calling on the Foreign Secretary to ensure:
    ⚠️ An immediate ceasefire
    ⚠️ Urgent access to food, water and humanitarian aid for civilians
    ⚠️ A real commitment to lasting peace for all, with justice, dignity and a future for Palestinian and Israeli people
    ⚠️ Anyone held captive must be released.

    Well of course they want more innocents to survive, means more for their workers to abuse.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622
    This is really quite a bad time for Trump to get re-elected and withdraw the USA from NATO. Definitely not ideal, not right now
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,458

    Have Oxfam got the balance right? Seen this on my FB feed just now:

    𝐖𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐧 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐯𝐢𝐨𝐥𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐚𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐈𝐬𝐫𝐚𝐞𝐥𝐢 𝐜𝐢𝐯𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧𝐬 𝐩𝐚𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐮𝐫𝐞.
    Please sign our petition and make your voice heard. Together we’re calling on the Foreign Secretary to ensure:
    ⚠️ An immediate ceasefire
    ⚠️ Urgent access to food, water and humanitarian aid for civilians
    ⚠️ A real commitment to lasting peace for all, with justice, dignity and a future for Palestinian and Israeli people
    ⚠️ Anyone held captive must be released.

    Oh, Oxfam, trying to get the war to stop because their own rapists want to ‘help’? Oh, and please give money, our six-figure CEO’s salary needs funding after the British government stopped giving us money.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56670162
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,844

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Apart from the Napoleon's wars, wars of independence in Latin America, US Civil War, Opium Wars, Taiping Rebellion, Indian Mutiny/war of independence, several Afghan and Zulu wars, wars of German and Italian unification, Franco-Prussian war, several Russo-Turkish wars, not to mention numerous actions against various colonial peoples, I see what you mean. Times of unprecedented peace.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    This isn't logical. There was no hegemon in the days of the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, or the Industrial Revolution.
    When huge world empires fragment, chaos and warfare generally ensue

    Thing is, there haven’t been many of those. Probably only 3. Rome, Britain, America

    The end of Rome saw the Dark Ages. The end of Britain saw WW1 and WW2, as new powers fought for supremacy. The end of the American empire?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,863

    Cyclefree said:

    Plastic lawns should be banned.

    In all this, ah, "excitement" these last few days, I forgot to tell you all that Mum won Redbridge in Bloom (front garden container category) after re-entering for the first time since 2019 (which she also won)!
    Well, Redbridge still haven't updated their website with this year's winners, so I supplied some pics of my own!



    Excellent. We were worried she had gone to pot...
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,217
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    I think the greatest danger comes from incoherance and lack of direction. If you look at China, they may not want to be the next hegemon but at least they have some idea about where they are trying to go. We have no plan, no idea about what we are doing here, also lots of social fragmentation.

    Edit - I think the above is similar to one of Putin's regular observations of the West
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,844
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    This isn't logical. There was no hegemon in the days of the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, or the Industrial Revolution.
    When huge world empires fragment, chaos and warfare generally ensue

    Thing is, there haven’t been many of those. Probably only 3. Rome, Britain, America

    The end of Rome saw the Dark Ages. The end of Britain saw WW1 and WW2, as new powers fought for supremacy. The end of the American empire?
    The end of Britsh Empire was caused by WW2, it want the cause of it. WW1 was caused in large part by the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, and we are still seeing the aftershocks.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,817
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Surely it was subject to European hegemony, there just wasn't a single superpower?
    Even if Europe were a single power, which is was absolutely not, America was also a large and growing power, and the Ottoman Empire was waning but still powerful.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,424
    DavidL said:

    So far today I have seen England embarrassing themselves at the cricket. I have seen Man U thrashed 0-3 (and frankly it wasn't that close). I am not feeling great about Hamilton.

    Man U have lost as many games at home since Sir Alex retired, than they did in the 26 years he was manager...
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,564
    I don't know if anyone can enlighten me on these protesters we have seen across the world. The ones I've seen appear to be a bunch of airheads, bigots and thugs.

    Am I missing something that Humza Yousef has spotted?
  • DavidL said:

    So far today I have seen England embarrassing themselves at the cricket. I have seen Man U thrashed 0-3 (and frankly it wasn't that close). I am not feeling great about Hamilton.

    Hamilton? I've not seen it myself, but those who have all seem to enjoy the music.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,863
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    This isn't logical. There was no hegemon in the days of the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, or the Industrial Revolution.
    When huge world empires fragment, chaos and warfare generally ensue

    Thing is, there haven’t been many of those. Probably only 3. Rome, Britain, America

    The end of Rome saw the Dark Ages. The end of Britain saw WW1 and WW2, as new powers fought for supremacy. The end of the American empire?
    Whatever happened to the End of History? That didn't last long...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,844
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    I think the greatest danger comes from incoherance and lack of direction. If you look at China, they may not want to be the next hegemon but at least they have some idea about where they are trying to go. We have no plan, no idea about what we are doing here, also lots of social fragmentation.

    Edit - I think the above is similar to one of Putin's regular observations of the West
    Yes, but that incoherence is a strength rather than a weakness of Western Civilisation. A ferment of ideas, some good some bad, but dynamic and inventive as a result.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,600

    I don't know if anyone can enlighten me on these protesters we have seen across the world. The ones I've seen appear to be a bunch of airheads, bigots and thugs.

    Am I missing something that Humza Yousef has spotted?

    Humza Yousef is probably missing his in-laws for one thing. He is in a particularly invidious position personally.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,392
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    So far today I have seen England embarrassing themselves at the cricket. I have seen Man U thrashed 0-3 (and frankly it wasn't that close). I am not feeling great about Hamilton.

    Man U have lost as many games at home since Sir Alex retired, than they did in the 26 years he was manager...
    Cheers, thanks for that :(
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,817
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Apart from the Napoleon's wars, wars of independence in Latin America, US Civil War, Opium Wars, Taiping Rebellion, Indian Mutiny/war of independence, several Afghan and Zulu wars, wars of German and Italian unification, Franco-Prussian war, several Russo-Turkish wars, not to mention numerous actions against various colonial peoples, I see what you mean. Times of unprecedented peace.
    With the exception of the Napoleonic wars, which were over very early on, these were very small fry.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,295

    Sean_F said:

    I am sure the plod specialist officers will decide this is something to do with personal struggle and growth...

    The crowd is chanting:

    "From London to Gaza we'll have an INTIFADA!"

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1718675730958082379?s=20

    But a shitty kid chants something horrid about Bobby Charlton and he is in the nick straight away.

    Is that part of the main demo? The banner has a hammer & sickle, the crowd is barely worthy of the name, and there are seemingly unconcerned passers-by walking through the frame.

    Otherwise, you are right. There have been a few arrests but not many. The commissioner has asked for better laws. It has been suggested the police will make further arrests after watching footage but that might be wishful thinking.
    Ah, the Trotskyite Tankies*, then.

    *Many of the Piers Corbyn left profess to be Trotskyites. But also adore the Soviet Union, and often, Joseph Fucking Stalin.
    It's all a bit like Citizen Smith, where one of Wolfie's followers was a recent convert from the NF, and when he invited his friends to a demo "there were more swastikas and iron crosses than at Bormann's stag night."

    Or Otto, in A Fish Called Wanda, who was both a devout Buddhist, and a professional assassin.
    A surprising number of people think that being a Buddhist means you *must* be a good person.

    The Imperial Japanese Army demonstrated the opposite, for a start.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo <- only terrorist group to use WMDs.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    This isn't logical. There was no hegemon in the days of the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, or the Industrial Revolution.
    When huge world empires fragment, chaos and warfare generally ensue

    Thing is, there haven’t been many of those. Probably only 3. Rome, Britain, America

    The end of Rome saw the Dark Ages. The end of Britain saw WW1 and WW2, as new powers fought for supremacy. The end of the American empire?
    The end of Britsh Empire was caused by WW2, it want the cause of it. WW1 was caused in large part by the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, and we are still seeing the aftershocks.
    Disagree. WW1 was partly caused by a rising Germany feeling

    1 hemmed in by British naval and imperial power but

    2 able to challenge Britain industrially and economically, as Britain weakened, relatively
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,613

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    This isn't logical. There was no hegemon in the days of the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, or the Industrial Revolution.
    When huge world empires fragment, chaos and warfare generally ensue

    Thing is, there haven’t been many of those. Probably only 3. Rome, Britain, America

    The end of Rome saw the Dark Ages. The end of Britain saw WW1 and WW2, as new powers fought for supremacy. The end of the American empire?
    Whatever happened to the End of History? That didn't last long...
    @Leon has forgotten the Mughal Empire in his list.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,682
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    I think we undevalue the strength and resilience of the west. The USA has favourable demographics and will outpace the competition. And then there's Europe with all its extraordinary diversity and resources. Japan and South Korea - both wedded to the US. Oz and NZ. Oh, and the UK: nearly forgot.

    At the end of the day who, of their own free will, would actually want to fetch up in China/Russia etc.

    Most importantly its about the universal appeal of freedom, democracy. etc. Backed up by a powerful military.

    The West will remain the hegemon.

    (So long as the AI-enabled robots don't get us, of course)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,844

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Apart from the Napoleon's wars, wars of independence in Latin America, US Civil War, Opium Wars, Taiping Rebellion, Indian Mutiny/war of independence, several Afghan and Zulu wars, wars of German and Italian unification, Franco-Prussian war, several Russo-Turkish wars, not to mention numerous actions against various colonial peoples, I see what you mean. Times of unprecedented peace.
    With the exception of the Napoleonic wars, which were over very early on, these were very small fry.
    Estimates of the mortality of the Taiping rebellion range from 20-30 million, and more Americans died in the 5 years of their Civil War than all their other wars together to the present day. So hardly small fry.

    Also, peace is not just measured by war mortality, but also by subjectation of nations
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,613
    Leon said:

    This is really quite a bad time for Trump to get re-elected and withdraw the USA from NATO. Definitely not ideal, not right now

    About as sub-optimal for world peace as it gets.

    But seems highly likely as enough americans dont want to live in a democracy anymore.

    Brace.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,564

    Have Oxfam got the balance right? Seen this on my FB feed just now:

    𝐖𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐧 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐯𝐢𝐨𝐥𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐚𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐈𝐬𝐫𝐚𝐞𝐥𝐢 𝐜𝐢𝐯𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧𝐬 𝐩𝐚𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐮𝐫𝐞.
    Please sign our petition and make your voice heard. Together we’re calling on the Foreign Secretary to ensure:
    ⚠️ An immediate ceasefire
    ⚠️ Urgent access to food, water and humanitarian aid for civilians
    ⚠️ A real commitment to lasting peace for all, with justice, dignity and a future for Palestinian and Israeli people
    ⚠️ Anyone held captive must be released.

    It really would help if we acknowledged the limitation of our influence over this. Calling on James Cleverley* to ensure an immediate ceasefire seems to be pushing it a bit. Funny how when it comes to fighting wars the UK is accused in certain quarters of having ideas above its station but when it comes to calling for peace the same people seem to think we are all powerful!

    *not to say he's done much wrong
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,613
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    This isn't logical. There was no hegemon in the days of the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, or the Industrial Revolution.
    When huge world empires fragment, chaos and warfare generally ensue

    Thing is, there haven’t been many of those. Probably only 3. Rome, Britain, America

    The end of Rome saw the Dark Ages. The end of Britain saw WW1 and WW2, as new powers fought for supremacy. The end of the American empire?
    The end of Britsh Empire was caused by WW2, it want the cause of it. WW1 was caused in large part by the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, and we are still seeing the aftershocks.
    Disagree. WW1 was partly caused by a rising Germany feeling

    1 hemmed in by British naval and imperial power but

    2 able to challenge Britain industrially and economically, as Britain weakened, relatively
    Nah, it was all down to Princip.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,817
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Apart from the Napoleon's wars, wars of independence in Latin America, US Civil War, Opium Wars, Taiping Rebellion, Indian Mutiny/war of independence, several Afghan and Zulu wars, wars of German and Italian unification, Franco-Prussian war, several Russo-Turkish wars, not to mention numerous actions against various colonial peoples, I see what you mean. Times of unprecedented peace.
    With the exception of the Napoleonic wars, which were over very early on, these were very small fry.
    Estimates of the mortality of the Taiping rebellion range from 20-30 million, and more Americans died in the 5 years of their Civil War than all their other wars together to the present day. So hardly small fry.

    Also, peace is not just measured by war mortality, but also by subjectation of nations
    But these were internal matters, not conflicts between nations. By and large the peace was kept between the powers, because they were balanced.

  • Have Oxfam got the balance right? Seen this on my FB feed just now:

    𝐖𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐧 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐯𝐢𝐨𝐥𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐚𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐈𝐬𝐫𝐚𝐞𝐥𝐢 𝐜𝐢𝐯𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧𝐬 𝐩𝐚𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐮𝐫𝐞.
    Please sign our petition and make your voice heard. Together we’re calling on the Foreign Secretary to ensure:
    ⚠️ An immediate ceasefire
    ⚠️ Urgent access to food, water and humanitarian aid for civilians
    ⚠️ A real commitment to lasting peace for all, with justice, dignity and a future for Palestinian and Israeli people
    ⚠️ Anyone held captive must be released.

    Rather interesting that, in their third point, they say "a future for Palestinian and Israeli people" when the normal grammatical rule would suggest an order of "Israeli and Palestinian"

    It may be a slip-up or it may suggest their (un)conscious view as on whose people / side they are.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,182
    Leon said:

    On the excellent recommendation of @TimS I went to this place today

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Romana_del_Casale

    One of the greatest villas of the late Roman Empire. The mosaics are absolutely mind blowing. The whole vast building, with its exquisite fountains and courtly bath complex, shows that even in the 4th century, in relatively distant rural Sicily, Rome could conjure levels of civilization that took 1400 years to regain, once Rome collapsed

    There was a poignant placard by one mosaic which read - ‘the mosaics were preserved under layers of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles from the later medieval era’

    I fear that is where we might be headed. Back to an era of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles

    Quite a place isn’t it? The art in the mosaics was actually…artistic. Bleak and rather beautiful landscapes around there too, though I saw it in April when the grass was green. The consequence of millennia of environmental degradation.

    Best way for the West not to collapse is for most of the rest of the growing bits of the world - particularly Africa - to become part of the West. Bit of a critical time at the moment but I have some hope.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,566

    Have Oxfam got the balance right? Seen this on my FB feed just now:

    𝐖𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐧 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐯𝐢𝐨𝐥𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐚𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐈𝐬𝐫𝐚𝐞𝐥𝐢 𝐜𝐢𝐯𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧𝐬 𝐩𝐚𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐮𝐫𝐞.
    Please sign our petition and make your voice heard. Together we’re calling on the Foreign Secretary to ensure:
    ⚠️ An immediate ceasefire
    ⚠️ Urgent access to food, water and humanitarian aid for civilians
    ⚠️ A real commitment to lasting peace for all, with justice, dignity and a future for Palestinian and Israeli people
    ⚠️ Anyone held captive must be released.

    It really would help if we acknowledged the limitation of our influence over this. Calling on James Cleverley* to ensure an immediate ceasefire seems to be pushing it a bit. Funny how when it comes to fighting wars the UK is accused in certain quarters of having ideas above its station but when it comes to calling for peace the same people seem to think we are all powerful!

    *not to say he's done much wrong
    According to Russian State TV, the U.K. is responsible for a whole slew of Evul, Cunning and Succesful plots against Ruusia and the world.

    If they could get us to turn our world conquering powers to Good…
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,844

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    That's what I mean. Someone's hegemony is always fragmenting.
    Impossible, surely, else a new hegemony would not have time to establish. It's like an evil empire in a fantasy novel, they inevitably get defeated in the story, sometimes shockingly easily, but the scenario requires one to have arisen and existed for long enough to make its fall dramatic.
    Well yes. Fragmenting or coalescing I suppose. I don't think hegemony is a good way for the world to be. I'm glad it's fragmenting.
    This sounds like naive, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
    On the contrary, the 19th century was unprecedently peaceful and prosperous precisely because nobody held hegemonic power, or more accurately, sought to cement such power.
    Apart from the Napoleon's wars, wars of independence in Latin America, US Civil War, Opium Wars, Taiping Rebellion, Indian Mutiny/war of independence, several Afghan and Zulu wars, wars of German and Italian unification, Franco-Prussian war, several Russo-Turkish wars, not to mention numerous actions against various colonial peoples, I see what you mean. Times of unprecedented peace.
    With the exception of the Napoleonic wars, which were over very early on, these were very small fry.
    Estimates of the mortality of the Taiping rebellion range from 20-30 million, and more Americans died in the 5 years of their Civil War than all their other wars together to the present day. So hardly small fry.

    Also, peace is not just measured by war mortality, but also by subjectation of nations
    But these were internal matters, not conflicts between nations. By and large the peace was kept between the powers, because they were balanced.

    Both were caused by clashes of civilisations, or at least ideas.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,844
    edited October 2023
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    On the excellent recommendation of @TimS I went to this place today

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Romana_del_Casale

    One of the greatest villas of the late Roman Empire. The mosaics are absolutely mind blowing. The whole vast building, with its exquisite fountains and courtly bath complex, shows that even in the 4th century, in relatively distant rural Sicily, Rome could conjure levels of civilization that took 1400 years to regain, once Rome collapsed

    There was a poignant placard by one mosaic which read - ‘the mosaics were preserved under layers of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles from the later medieval era’

    I fear that is where we might be headed. Back to an era of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles

    Quite a place isn’t it? The art in the mosaics was actually…artistic. Bleak and rather beautiful landscapes around there too, though I saw it in April when the grass was green. The consequence of millennia of environmental degradation.

    Best way for the West not to collapse is for most of the rest of the growing bits of the world - particularly Africa - to become part of the West. Bit of a critical time at the moment but I have some hope.
    I agree. Africa is a real success story over the last few decades, and South America even more so. The dictatorships have nearly all gone, and while imperfect, most African and Latin American nations are now democracies with capitalist economies. Many problems remain of course, and the Sahel is like the Africa of decades ago, but astonishing and generally ignored progress.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,785
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Plastic lawns should be banned.

    The bar for the government banning things needs to be fairly high, I'm afraid. And I'm not sure that your personal dislike of astroturf is enough.
    On the contrary. It's utterly ****ing outrageous. Water runoff, microplastics ditto, damage done to what's left of the ecosystem, the need to replace every 15 or whatever years ... you'd be better with letting the front garden go to weed.
    They are disastrous. And there's continuing pressure to build (and i mean build - you don't just roll them over bare earth) artificial "all weather" (except they arent') football pitches all over the place. And when they are done they can't be recycled. Dumped into landfill. Tonnes and tonnes of material. Should be banned.
    Get covered with rotting leaves this time of year and begin to stink. So not even the low maintenance the owners want. One of the worst gardening trends of all time.
    Why not just paint concrete green?
    You will all be delighted to hear that a new neighbour has replaced the previous residents’ astroturf with proper grass.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,713
    Comment from a British Muslim journalist on Dagestan:

    https://x.com/dillyhussain88/status/1718709935179980828

    This is the kind of welcome ALL Israelis should be receiving at the airports of Muslim-majority countries.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,564
    Has the MSM picked up on the Dagestan situation yet? I can't see anything on the BBC website.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,182
    Boomer anecdote: my parents, retired civil servant and teacher yet comfortable for years and forever in surplus in their retirement, now complain of running short. Quite a novelty. Inflation has caught up with them. Withdrawing funds from investments. Cutting back, would you believe it, on holidays.

    Neither is a Tory voter (one for many years, the other since Brexit) but if they are remotely struggling then the Tories are done. They are the epitome of the financially secure boomer generation that’s stuck with this government against gravity.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The world is spiraling into something deeply tragic

    It's not really. Just more of the same.
    No, this feels qualitatively different. The western hegemony is fragmenting, like Rome before it
    Who's taking over then? Who's challenging? China is facing a demographic timebomb. The Islamic world? Largely dependent on the west or, otherwise, impotent. Africa? Russia? The only significant rising power is India and India is hardly challenging Western hegemony.

    Don't worry.
    I agree with @Foxy

    The fear is not a NEW hegemon, it’s no hegemon at all. The chaos of the Dark Ages

    It is merely a fear, tho. And of course AI might save us, from ourselves, at just the right time
    This isn't logical. There was no hegemon in the days of the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, or the Industrial Revolution.
    When huge world empires fragment, chaos and warfare generally ensue

    Thing is, there haven’t been many of those. Probably only 3. Rome, Britain, America

    The end of Rome saw the Dark Ages. The end of Britain saw WW1 and WW2, as new powers fought for supremacy. The end of the American empire?
    Whatever happened to the End of History? That didn't last long...
    It was just a load of fukuyama.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,785

    Has the MSM picked up on the Dagestan situation yet? I can't see anything on the BBC website.

    They can only cope with one war at a time. They can’t even report on Ukraine now, let alone Dagestan.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,313

    Has the MSM picked up on the Dagestan situation yet? I can't see anything on the BBC website.

    They can only cope with one war at a time. They can’t even report on Ukraine now, let alone Dagestan.
    Working out ok for the Ukrainians at the moment. Slow but all in the right direction.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,995
    Leon said:

    On the excellent recommendation of @TimS I went to this place today

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Romana_del_Casale

    One of the greatest villas of the late Roman Empire. The mosaics are absolutely mind blowing. The whole vast building, with its exquisite fountains and courtly bath complex, shows that even in the 4th century, in relatively distant rural Sicily, Rome could conjure levels of civilization that took 1400 years to regain, once Rome collapsed

    There was a poignant placard by one mosaic which read - ‘the mosaics were preserved under layers of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles from the later medieval era’

    I fear that is where we might be headed. Back to an era of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles

    That does look amazing.
    I note there’s a reverse swastika on one of the tunics in the hunting mosaic.
  • Has the MSM picked up on the Dagestan situation yet? I can't see anything on the BBC website.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67258332.amp
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    On the excellent recommendation of @TimS I went to this place today

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Romana_del_Casale

    One of the greatest villas of the late Roman Empire. The mosaics are absolutely mind blowing. The whole vast building, with its exquisite fountains and courtly bath complex, shows that even in the 4th century, in relatively distant rural Sicily, Rome could conjure levels of civilization that took 1400 years to regain, once Rome collapsed

    There was a poignant placard by one mosaic which read - ‘the mosaics were preserved under layers of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles from the later medieval era’

    I fear that is where we might be headed. Back to an era of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles

    Quite a place isn’t it? The art in the mosaics was actually…artistic. Bleak and rather beautiful landscapes around there too, though I saw it in April when the grass was green. The consequence of millennia of environmental degradation.

    Best way for the West not to collapse is for most of the rest of the growing bits of the world - particularly Africa - to become part of the West. Bit of a critical time at the moment but I have some hope.
    I agree. Africa is a real success story over the last few decades, and South America even more so. The dictatorships have nearly all gone, and while imperfect, most African and Latin American nations are now democracies with capitalist economies. Many problems remain of course, and the Sahel is like the Africa of decades ago, but astonishing and generally ignored progress.
    Are you on drugs?


    “Something has gone badly wrong in Africa. Sudan has collapsed into carnage, as two grasping warlords battle for control. Genocide has returned to Darfur: fighters loyal to one of those warlords are murdering every male they can find from one ethnic group, even shooting baby boys strapped to their mothers’ backs, as we report. In Ethiopia one civil war has barely ended and a new one is brewing. Across the Sahel, jihadists are terrorising millions and soldiers are seizing power, promising to restore calm but not actually doing so. You can now walk across nearly the widest part of Africa, from the Atlantic to the Red Sea, passing only through countries that have suffered coups in the past three years. But it would be unwise—you might well be kidnapped.”



    One reason coups have grown more common is that many Africans have lost faith in democracy. Afrobarometer, a pollster, found that the share who prefer democracy to any other form of government has fallen from 75% in 2012 to 66%. That may sound like a solid majority, but it includes many waverers. An alarming 53% said a coup would be legitimate if civilian leaders abuse their power, which they often do. In South Africa, which has one of the world’s most liberal constitutions, 72% say that if a non-elected leader could cut crime and boost housing and jobs, they would be willing to forgo elections.“

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/10/05/why-africans-are-losing-faith-in-democracy
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    On the excellent recommendation of @TimS I went to this place today

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Romana_del_Casale

    One of the greatest villas of the late Roman Empire. The mosaics are absolutely mind blowing. The whole vast building, with its exquisite fountains and courtly bath complex, shows that even in the 4th century, in relatively distant rural Sicily, Rome could conjure levels of civilization that took 1400 years to regain, once Rome collapsed

    There was a poignant placard by one mosaic which read - ‘the mosaics were preserved under layers of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles from the later medieval era’

    I fear that is where we might be headed. Back to an era of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles

    Quite a place isn’t it? The art in the mosaics was actually…artistic. Bleak and rather beautiful landscapes around there too, though I saw it in April when the grass was green. The consequence of millennia of environmental degradation.

    Best way for the West not to collapse is for most of the rest of the growing bits of the world - particularly Africa - to become part of the West. Bit of a critical time at the moment but I have some hope.
    I agree. Africa is a real success story over the last few decades, and South America even more so. The dictatorships have nearly all gone, and while imperfect, most African and Latin American nations are now democracies with capitalist economies. Many problems remain of course, and the Sahel is like the Africa of decades ago, but astonishing and generally ignored progress.
    Are you on drugs?


    “Something has gone badly wrong in Africa. Sudan has collapsed into carnage, as two grasping warlords battle for control. Genocide has returned to Darfur: fighters loyal to one of those warlords are murdering every male they can find from one ethnic group, even shooting baby boys strapped to their mothers’ backs, as we report. In Ethiopia one civil war has barely ended and a new one is brewing. Across the Sahel, jihadists are terrorising millions and soldiers are seizing power, promising to restore calm but not actually doing so. You can now walk across nearly the widest part of Africa, from the Atlantic to the Red Sea, passing only through countries that have suffered coups in the past three years. But it would be unwise—you might well be kidnapped.”



    One reason coups have grown more common is that many Africans have lost faith in democracy. Afrobarometer, a pollster, found that the share who prefer democracy to any other form of government has fallen from 75% in 2012 to 66%. That may sound like a solid majority, but it includes many waverers. An alarming 53% said a coup would be legitimate if civilian leaders abuse their power, which they often do. In South Africa, which has one of the world’s most liberal constitutions, 72% say that if a non-elected leader could cut crime and boost housing and jobs, they would be willing to forgo elections.“

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/10/05/why-africans-are-losing-faith-in-democracy
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,182

    Comment from a British Muslim journalist on Dagestan:

    https://x.com/dillyhussain88/status/1718709935179980828

    This is the kind of welcome ALL Israelis should be receiving at the airports of Muslim-majority countries.

    Incredible. Putin has been sending tens of thousands of Dagestanis to their deaths in Ukraine for over a year in a war they should have nothing to do with, and the thing they care most about is lynching Jews at the airport. And a British journalist thinks this is eminently sensible.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,613

    Has the MSM picked up on the Dagestan situation yet? I can't see anything on the BBC website.

    They can only cope with one war at a time. They can’t even report on Ukraine now, let alone Dagestan.
    2nd item on Mail website:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12686125/Mob-Dagestan-Airport-Jewish-passengers-flight-Israel-incident-Russian-republic.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,622
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    On the excellent recommendation of @TimS I went to this place today

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Romana_del_Casale

    One of the greatest villas of the late Roman Empire. The mosaics are absolutely mind blowing. The whole vast building, with its exquisite fountains and courtly bath complex, shows that even in the 4th century, in relatively distant rural Sicily, Rome could conjure levels of civilization that took 1400 years to regain, once Rome collapsed

    There was a poignant placard by one mosaic which read - ‘the mosaics were preserved under layers of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles from the later medieval era’

    I fear that is where we might be headed. Back to an era of straw, dung, rubble and cobbles

    That does look amazing.
    I note there’s a reverse swastika on one of the tunics in the hunting mosaic.
    It’s the most incredible Roman Villa I’ve seen. And, to that extent, is the most impressive private house I’ve ever encountered, from classical antiquity

    And on that more beautiful note, good night from sultry Sicily
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,613
    TimS said:

    Boomer anecdote: my parents, retired civil servant and teacher yet comfortable for years and forever in surplus in their retirement, now complain of running short. Quite a novelty. Inflation has caught up with them. Withdrawing funds from investments. Cutting back, would you believe it, on holidays.

    Neither is a Tory voter (one for many years, the other since Brexit) but if they are remotely struggling then the Tories are done. They are the epitome of the financially secure boomer generation that’s stuck with this government against gravity.

    Have they abandoned Waitrose yet? :smiley:
This discussion has been closed.