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We need a new Green Policy – Part 1 – politicalbetting.com

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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,471
    eristdoof said:

    biggles said:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: we have solved global warming. We have won. Existing measures (on the lower side), plus technology changes, will see average temperatures rise by maybe 2-2.5 degrees. That’s fine (unless you live somewhere like Mauritius, and we should help them).

    We can declare victory and move on.

    Restricting the world to just a 2 degree increase globally is like claiming that Labour won the 2017 general election. It will not be a "ah that's OK then" scenario and most of the world will suffer not just Mauritius.
    The risk of reaching 4C is much diminished and I think that's worth celebrating.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,501
    eristdoof said:

    The sad truth is that so much of our infrastructure in this country is crumbling. Water pipes. Schools. Hospitals. Roads. Public services.

    An ocean of cash will have to be invested because the cost of not doing so is higher. The right can complain about the impact on bills but oceans of money have been pocketed by the likes of Thames Water as they leave the infrastructure to crumble. Not that the right care about people anyway.

    So we have to spend an ocean of cash to fix this country. Do we spend it on 21st century things or 19th century things? We need power generation - clean tech or coal? And if we need to have all these things does the right really think that importing them is the best approach?

    We used to build things for the world. Clean tech is the opportunity to do so again.

    So name your technology. Nuclear perhaps then what ?
    Starter for 10: wind. We’re building an awful lot of big wind farms. Why aren’t we developing our own turbines, manufacturing them, and exporting them to other markets?

    Off shore wind needs ancillaries- inter connectors, control gear, support ships. Let’s make those.

    We’ve given up as an industrial nation. Too hard. Too expensive. Yet we pay more by importing the things we used to export
    Ive been arguing for years here along with @another_richard that we have been throwing away our manufacturing . However a lot of the technology lead on wind sits with people like Siemens. The make things here but a multinational always suits itself. Unless we have more domestically controlled businesses I cannot see us recovering technologies. The RR mini nuclear plants may be somewhere we can establish a lead but we're screwing that up atm.
    So let’s invest in business then. The Thatcher revolution was to stop investing and to start selling. We sold off the utilities and encouraged British industrial giants like ICI and GEC to split themselves apart and hive off chunks for a quick profit today and don’t worry about tomorrow.

    We need to change that. We built up industrial capability before and we can do it again - but we have to invest. And sadly the right seems to see investment as communism - or close to it. Why tie up money investing for the long term when your spiv mates could be making a profit now?
    You should be thanking Thatcher.

    She was the first major leader to recognise the threat of climate change, and to deliver a UN speech on it. It was partly because of her the 1990 baseline was established, which we've cut against ever since. Because she understood the science.

    It's remarkable people keep forgetting this, and that goes for fellow Conservatives too.
    I was at a climate camp about 15 years ago, and I ended up in a small group facing off against some cops who were wanting to trample over everyone's tents. Someone thought it would help gee everyone up if we all took turns to talk about why we were there, and for some reason I provoked some odd looks from those assembled by talking about how even Thatcher had acknowledged it was a problem nearly two decades earlier, and had done something about it, and so I was incredibly frustrated we weren't making more progress more quickly.
    Thatcher is effectively a four (eight?) letter word in this country.
    She got lots of things right and lots of things wrong. The end of her reign and the aftermath she was increasingly wrong and it is that side of her that gets remembered by both the left and right. So much of the left thinks she was evil and much of the right has misunderstood the good things she did and her scientific approach including the benefits of listening to experts and of a broad and balanced cabinet.

    It is not fair, just like it is not fair on Blair but thats how it works.
    She was unpopular in many parts of the country even in the first 5 years, the obvious exception being the liberation of the Falkland Islands which was popular with most voters.

    The reson for her unpopularity in the early years was the quick shift to reduce inflation meant that unemployment shot through the roof. I remember being in New Zealand in 1980 and someone there commenting it is unbelievable that the number of unemployed in the UK was more than the population of New Zealand. This unempoyment hit was not spread equally around the country, so if you lived in South England the problem was minimal, confined to teenagers with no O-levels or poor areas like unless the East End or Brixton. Unemploymant hit much harder in most other parts of the UK.
    She was loved and adored in Scotland
  • Options

    eristdoof said:

    biggles said:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: we have solved global warming. We have won. Existing measures (on the lower side), plus technology changes, will see average temperatures rise by maybe 2-2.5 degrees. That’s fine (unless you live somewhere like Mauritius, and we should help them).

    We can declare victory and move on.

    Restricting the world to just a 2 degree increase globally is like claiming that Labour won the 2017 general election. It will not be a "ah that's OK then" scenario and most of the world will suffer not just Mauritius.
    The risk of reaching 4C is much diminished and I think that's worth celebrating.
    Yes, it is heartening that the development of renewables is proceeding apace and there appears to be something approaching a global commitment to deep emissions reductions. But it has come far too late and far too slowly, and a lot of damage has already been done to the future climate. We can only hope that the worst can yet be averted.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,150
    biggles said:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: we have solved global warming. We have won. Existing measures (on the lower side), plus technology changes, will see average temperatures rise by maybe 2-2.5 degrees. That’s fine (unless you live somewhere like Mauritius, and we should help them).

    We can declare victory and move on.

    Not quite. 1.2C is already causing problems and above 1.5C causes major problems.

    FWIW I hope we can get it into the 1.8-2C box still but I still expect massive change off the back of that.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Guess now’s not the time for a longer chat about Georgian cuisine?

    Seriously. Ouch. Sympathies

    Couldn’t you have delayed your return - travelling when you’re that sick is horrible
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    theProletheProle Posts: 978

    Just read the header.

    "And then of course there’s the reality climate change might have some benefits."

    Sorry, but you've lost all credibility.

    He's not wrong. In about 5,000 years, Birmingham will be able to assume its rightful role as capital of the British Archipelago:

    UK Map
    Can we have it sooner than that? Billions of powers worth of improvements done to London there!
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,914
    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Best is full sugar regular Coke, as it is nearly isotonic, combined with some salty crisps. Gut absorption of glucose assists absorption of the salt.

    It is as good as rehydration salts.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,342

    Just read the header.

    "And then of course there’s the reality climate change might have some benefits."

    Sorry, but you've lost all credibility.

    Climate change will result in the greatest mass migration of people in history, from parts of the world that will become uninhabitable. Also starvation as a result of great swathes of farming land becoming untenable.

    The small boat people will look like a blip. A rounding error, compared to what's to come.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    It is 26-27C here in Siracusa. Feels hotter TBH

    The average high here for the end of October should be around 20C. And it’s been like this for weeks the locals say - 5-7 degrees hotter than normal
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,914
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    China is hitting emissions reduction path quickly, and it’s likely to accelerate. Not just policy, demographics and economic logic:

    https://x.com/laurimyllyvirta/status/1716736409183146050?s=46

    “China coal plants” is just an excuse for Britain to get left behind on major infrastructure transformation, as usual.

    A sad little kingdom of asset sweaters.

    I was going to like this post, for the first sentence and Twitter link - which is broadly accurate; there should be a massive in Chinese renewables in the next 10 years - but the rest of the post put me off.

    Why do so many on the left take such active pleasure in falsely denigrating and hating their own country?
    Maybe because it's not the country or its people we hate, but the grifters and swindlers presently running it..

    ..and I am not on the left btw.
    The government is shit, we all know that, full of arseholes, but for a very large majority of people, this is a very good place to live in. The same is true of most rich world countries.

    Compared to any previous generation, our problems are modest ones.

    I think it was Hume who said his toothache caused him more anxiety than the Lisbon earthquake, which sums it up.
    That’s really not true any more: it is the Panglossian verdict of the 1990s-00s

    AI alone is probably the biggest existential threat mankind has ever faced. Yes it may be utopian, it could also be apocalyptic. Truly. And it is coming - this is not some maybe or could be

    Add to that the fractured geopolitical world, climate change, the rise of autocratic China, and our problems are not “modest”, sadly
    Things are more frightening than in the 1990's. But, before that, we had World War, a series of hideous conflicts after colonial powers withdrew from Africa and Asia, the Cold War, high unemployment, terrorism, bitter industrial conflict, and the threat of nuclear annihilation (my father tells me how frightened he was during the Cuban Missile Crisis), among other delights. And worldwide, both poverty and famine were at much higher levels than now.

    The big difference between the 1950-2000 period and now, is that, back then, we could take for granted living standards growing by 2% a year, here, compared to 1% a year now. It doesn't sound like much, but it makes a big difference over the course of 25 years, and it hurts.
    Sure, but even the nuclear threat of the 60s-80s was more controllable than the advent of AI. We will be sharing the planet with an intelligence alien to ours and greater than ours

    What are the chances it is entirely benign? And beneficial?

    Of course we could stop AI development now, but also we can’t. The economic and political structure of the planet makes that a non runner. So AI - then AGI - then ASI - is coming, in the next 3-30 years depending on which expert you consult

    And even the people who estimate 30 years think AI will profoundly change humanity long before then. For good or ill
    Multiple AIs rather than a singular one. Indeed they might take a dislike to each other and wage a technowar that doesn't even involve us.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,728
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Best is full sugar regular Coke, as it is nearly isotonic, combined with some salty crisps. Gut absorption of glucose assists absorption of the salt.

    It is as good as rehydration salts.
    I’m about to tuck into a can of full fat coke, yes. Annoying it’s fizzy though.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,728
    Leon said:

    It is 26-27C here in Siracusa. Feels hotter TBH

    The average high here for the end of October should be around 20C. And it’s been like this for weeks the locals say - 5-7 degrees hotter than normal

    Everywhere’s the same, repeatedly. Moldova just beat its October record with over 30C. In Georgia this week it was regularly mid 20s. Should be mid to high teens.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    China is hitting emissions reduction path quickly, and it’s likely to accelerate. Not just policy, demographics and economic logic:

    https://x.com/laurimyllyvirta/status/1716736409183146050?s=46

    “China coal plants” is just an excuse for Britain to get left behind on major infrastructure transformation, as usual.

    A sad little kingdom of asset sweaters.

    I was going to like this post, for the first sentence and Twitter link - which is broadly accurate; there should be a massive in Chinese renewables in the next 10 years - but the rest of the post put me off.

    Why do so many on the left take such active pleasure in falsely denigrating and hating their own country?
    Maybe because it's not the country or its people we hate, but the grifters and swindlers presently running it..

    ..and I am not on the left btw.
    The government is shit, we all know that, full of arseholes, but for a very large majority of people, this is a very good place to live in. The same is true of most rich world countries.

    Compared to any previous generation, our problems are modest ones.

    I think it was Hume who said his toothache caused him more anxiety than the Lisbon earthquake, which sums it up.
    That’s really not true any more: it is the Panglossian verdict of the 1990s-00s

    AI alone is probably the biggest existential threat mankind has ever faced. Yes it may be utopian, it could also be apocalyptic. Truly. And it is coming - this is not some maybe or could be

    Add to that the fractured geopolitical world, climate change, the rise of autocratic China, and our problems are not “modest”, sadly
    Things are more frightening than in the 1990's. But, before that, we had World War, a series of hideous conflicts after colonial powers withdrew from Africa and Asia, the Cold War, high unemployment, terrorism, bitter industrial conflict, and the threat of nuclear annihilation (my father tells me how frightened he was during the Cuban Missile Crisis), among other delights. And worldwide, both poverty and famine were at much higher levels than now.

    The big difference between the 1950-2000 period and now, is that, back then, we could take for granted living standards growing by 2% a year, here, compared to 1% a year now. It doesn't sound like much, but it makes a big difference over the course of 25 years, and it hurts.
    Sure, but even the nuclear threat of the 60s-80s was more controllable than the advent of AI. We will be sharing the planet with an intelligence alien to ours and greater than ours

    What are the chances it is entirely benign? And beneficial?

    Of course we could stop AI development now, but also we can’t. The economic and political structure of the planet makes that a non runner. So AI - then AGI - then ASI - is coming, in the next 3-30 years depending on which expert you consult

    And even the people who estimate 30 years think AI will profoundly change humanity long before then. For good or ill
    Multiple AIs rather than a singular one. Indeed they might take a dislike to each other and wage a technowar that doesn't even involve us.
    There are so many ways AI could go very wrong - or very right - is bewildering and confounding. Also exciting if you like intense drama
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,342
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Best is full sugar regular Coke, as it is nearly isotonic, combined with some salty crisps. Gut absorption of glucose assists absorption of the salt.

    It is as good as rehydration salts.
    I’m about to tuck into a can of full fat coke, yes. Annoying it’s fizzy though.
    Lucozade was great, before they changed the recipe.

    Irn Bru 1901 (the old recipe, in the retro bottle) is the closest you can get these days.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,728
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Guess now’s not the time for a longer chat about Georgian cuisine?

    Seriously. Ouch. Sympathies

    Couldn’t you have delayed your return - travelling when you’re that sick is horrible
    Delaying would have caused more, different pain. And at least I have the prospect (hopefully) of the home bed this evening.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,686
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Best is full sugar regular Coke, as it is nearly isotonic, combined with some salty crisps. Gut absorption of glucose assists absorption of the salt.

    It is as good as rehydration salts.
    I’m about to tuck into a can of full fat coke, yes. Annoying it’s fizzy though.
    Full sugar Lipton ice team works the same if you don't want the fizz.
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,194
    edited October 2023
    eristdoof said:

    biggles said:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: we have solved global warming. We have won. Existing measures (on the lower side), plus technology changes, will see average temperatures rise by maybe 2-2.5 degrees. That’s fine (unless you live somewhere like Mauritius, and we should help them).

    We can declare victory and move on.

    Restricting the world to just a 2 degree increase globally is like claiming that Labour won the 2017 general election. It will not be a "ah that's OK then" scenario and most of the world will suffer not just Mauritius.
    Well it’s inevitable. We have set in motion what we can do and we should be proud of it, and brace for the impact where it hits.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,373
    biggles said:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: we have solved global warming. We have won. Existing measures (on the lower side), plus technology changes, will see average temperatures rise by maybe 2-2.5 degrees. That’s fine (unless you live somewhere like Mauritius, and we should help them).

    We can declare victory and move on.

    I think it's premature to say that. But, it does look as though in the not too distant future, we'll be getting most of energy from renewable sources, rather than fossil fuels.

    I think, too, that a wealthier world will cope more easily with climate change than a poorer one would do. Extreme weather typically kills single figure numbers in this country, now. In past centuries, or in poor countries, it kills hundreds or thousands.

    Overall, I think it will be easier to manage climate change than it has been to reduce world poverty, over the past couple of centuries.

    Oddly, I seem to be getting more optimistic as I age.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,062
    kyf_100 said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Best is full sugar regular Coke, as it is nearly isotonic, combined with some salty crisps. Gut absorption of glucose assists absorption of the salt.

    It is as good as rehydration salts.
    I’m about to tuck into a can of full fat coke, yes. Annoying it’s fizzy though.
    Lucozade was great, before they changed the recipe.

    Irn Bru 1901 (the old recipe, in the retro bottle) is the closest you can get these days.
    I really miss that old Lucozade advert that you used to see as you came into London on the M4, just before Junction 2. It should have been listed.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,012
    Excellent thread header. We simply can’t stop global warming, it is already happening and the consequences are all around us.

    Our contributions to global warming are insignificant. I am not saying we should do nothing but the priority should be preparing for the changes. The recent floods around here showed our infrastructure cannot cope with the more extreme weather. Our drains can’t cope, our roads can’t cope, our sewage can’t cope, the forthcoming bills are almost endless.
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,247

    Campaign to save Liverpool Street Station:
    https://justgiving.com/campaign/savelivstreet

    I must admit the proposed building looks rather poor.

    I see the sky was nice and blue in the “before” photos and gray and depressing in the “after” shot…
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    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    AI is going to devastate the developing world

    Because those countries rely so much on the rich world outsourcing and offshoring low-mid level jobs. Call centres in India. Coders in Pakistan

    All those will vanish overnight as they can be done for tuppence by computers conveniently located in Texas and Swindon and Antwerp
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,012
    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    So how many hours before it is twice as bright? As anyone who bothers with my posts will realise I am not a great fan of the overuse of “exponential” but in this particular case…
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    I understand one of the parts of human behaviour they are really struggling to replicate is alarmist blind panic.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,687
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    Are these the same b/s rumours you were promoting a month or so ago?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,012
    Sean_F said:

    biggles said:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: we have solved global warming. We have won. Existing measures (on the lower side), plus technology changes, will see average temperatures rise by maybe 2-2.5 degrees. That’s fine (unless you live somewhere like Mauritius, and we should help them).

    We can declare victory and move on.

    I think it's premature to say that. But, it does look as though in the not too distant future, we'll be getting most of energy from renewable sources, rather than fossil fuels.

    I think, too, that a wealthier world will cope more easily with climate change than a poorer one would do. Extreme weather typically kills single figure numbers in this country, now. In past centuries, or in poor countries, it kills hundreds or thousands.

    Overall, I think it will be easier to manage climate change than it has been to reduce world poverty, over the past couple of centuries.

    Oddly, I seem to be getting more optimistic as I age.
    Congratulations. I am tending to the opposite. I think that it is incredibly unlikely that global warming will be incremental. Sooner or later, and it may already have happened, there will be a step change after which things might spiral out of control very quickly.

    The obvious weak points are the Antarctic ice sheet, the Greenland ice sheet, underwater substrates, methane trapped in Siberia, I could go on. It’s why the priority is to prepare, not prevent. It’s too late for that.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,687
    Timpson's are amazing:

    "Here is where our 18 holiday homes are for colleagues to have a free break on us."

    https://twitter.com/JamesTCobbler/status/1718189521664184348
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    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348

    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    Are these the same b/s rumours you were promoting a month or so ago?
    If you knew anything about it you’d know they are not BS

    The rumours may be wrong, but the sources are too intriguingly credible to be dismissed as BS

  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    biggles said:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: we have solved global warming. We have won. Existing measures (on the lower side), plus technology changes, will see average temperatures rise by maybe 2-2.5 degrees. That’s fine (unless you live somewhere like Mauritius, and we should help them).

    We can declare victory and move on.

    I think it's premature to say that. But, it does look as though in the not too distant future, we'll be getting most of energy from renewable sources, rather than fossil fuels.

    I think, too, that a wealthier world will cope more easily with climate change than a poorer one would do. Extreme weather typically kills single figure numbers in this country, now. In past centuries, or in poor countries, it kills hundreds or thousands.

    Overall, I think it will be easier to manage climate change than it has been to reduce world poverty, over the past couple of centuries.

    Oddly, I seem to be getting more optimistic as I age.
    That was roughly the TLDR of Bjorn Lomborg, wasn't it? Yes, global warming is real and will be bad but the time to cut carbon dioxide is later, when the world has more wealth and technology. And there are important ways he was right- take LEDs for lighting.

    But he was saying that a generation ago and later is much closer to now. And we still have people blethering about the relatively easy stuff.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,687
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    Are these the same b/s rumours you were promoting a month or so ago?
    If you knew anything about it you’d know they are not BS

    The rumours may be wrong, but the sources are too intriguingly credible to be dismissed as BS
    What do *you* know about it, aside from believing any rumours going? We're well past the ten years when you said no-one would be employed as lorry drivers.

    *Why* are the sources "intriguingly" credible?
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    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Best is full sugar regular Coke, as it is nearly isotonic, combined with some salty crisps. Gut absorption of glucose assists absorption of the salt.

    It is as good as rehydration salts.
    Medical approval of my hangover recovery tactics. Huzzah!
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 12,090
    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    I’m retiring next year so fine by me,
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    edited October 2023
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    So how many hours before it is twice as bright? As anyone who bothers with my posts will realise I am not a great fan of the overuse of “exponential” but in this particular case…
    It’s a very good question. Worth watching the recent interview with Sam Altman (CEO OpenAI) where he is absolutely sure we are on an
    exponential curve

    Of course you could say “he would say that”. But would he? Everyone in OpenAI is already fantastically rich. The company employs about 300 people and is worth ~$80bn

    If anything it would be more sensible for him to play down developments in case he looks like an idiot. But he doesn’t
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 12,090
    Someone called Ash Regan (nope, me neither) has left the SNP group in Holyrood and joined the true voice for Indy, Alba.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    It is 26-27C here in Siracusa. Feels hotter TBH

    The average high here for the end of October should be around 20C. And it’s been like this for weeks the locals say - 5-7 degrees hotter than normal

    Everywhere’s the same, repeatedly. Moldova just beat its October record with over 30C. In Georgia this week it was regularly mid 20s. Should be mid to high teens.
    Europe has literally been roasted alive this summer and still berks thing that climate change is woke, a pointless cost that we can just avoid by burning more fossil fuels.
  • Options
    Taz said:

    Someone called Ash Regan (nope, me neither) has left the SNP group in Holyrood and joined the true voice for Indy, Alba.

    Salmondite candidate in the leadership election?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348

    Campaign to save Liverpool Street Station:
    https://justgiving.com/campaign/savelivstreet

    I must admit the proposed building looks rather poor.

    I see the sky was nice and blue in the “before” photos and gray and depressing in the “after” shot…
    You can hardly blame the campaigners for using the architects’ own renders…

    And the proposed building is quite grotesque
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,012

    Timpson's are amazing:

    "Here is where our 18 holiday homes are for colleagues to have a free break on us."

    https://twitter.com/JamesTCobbler/status/1718189521664184348

    The employment opportunities they give former prisoners are probably amongst the most effective programs we have to get people onto the straight and narrow and we don’t even pay for it. Give them business when we can. They are fab.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,150
    kyf_100 said:

    Just read the header.

    "And then of course there’s the reality climate change might have some benefits."

    Sorry, but you've lost all credibility.

    Climate change will result in the greatest mass migration of people in history, from parts of the world that will become uninhabitable. Also starvation as a result of great swathes of farming land becoming untenable.

    The small boat people will look like a blip. A rounding error, compared to what's to come.
    Which is why the Right should be seriously interested in stopping it happening.

    The best migration control there is is mitigating climate change.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,348
    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Non Diet Coke is not the worst substitute as an emergency measure.


  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,373

    Sean_F said:

    biggles said:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: we have solved global warming. We have won. Existing measures (on the lower side), plus technology changes, will see average temperatures rise by maybe 2-2.5 degrees. That’s fine (unless you live somewhere like Mauritius, and we should help them).

    We can declare victory and move on.

    I think it's premature to say that. But, it does look as though in the not too distant future, we'll be getting most of energy from renewable sources, rather than fossil fuels.

    I think, too, that a wealthier world will cope more easily with climate change than a poorer one would do. Extreme weather typically kills single figure numbers in this country, now. In past centuries, or in poor countries, it kills hundreds or thousands.

    Overall, I think it will be easier to manage climate change than it has been to reduce world poverty, over the past couple of centuries.

    Oddly, I seem to be getting more optimistic as I age.
    That was roughly the TLDR of Bjorn Lomborg, wasn't it? Yes, global warming is real and will be bad but the time to cut carbon dioxide is later, when the world has more wealth and technology. And there are important ways he was right- take LEDs for lighting.

    But he was saying that a generation ago and later is much closer to now. And we still have people blethering about the relatively easy stuff.
    But, since he published his first book in 2001, the UK has gone from 3% of energy coming from renewables, to 40%. That's a good news story.
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,194
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    When this happens (and it is “when” - might be Tuesday or it might 100 years from Tuesday) I remain an optimist. I think it just makes everyone (caveat - everyone in rich countries) one hundred times more productive, and will allow faster advancement. We can focus humans on what humans are best at, and we will always retain the off switch. The really interesting bit is the cyber punk stuff - linking into the new possibilities and making ourselves better.

    Fair point on the issues if you’re a poor country that has prospered from outsourcing the jobs that go first.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,348
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    So how many hours before it is twice as bright? As anyone who bothers with my posts will realise I am not a great fan of the overuse of “exponential” but in this particular case…
    It’s a very good question. Worth watching the recent interview with Sam Altman (CEO OpenAI) where he is absolutely sure we are on an
    exponential curve

    Of course you could say “he would say that”. But would he? Everyone in OpenAI is already fantastically rich. The company employs about 300 people and is worth ~$80bn

    If anything it would be more sensible for him to play down developments in case he looks like an idiot. But he doesn’t
    Beware of tech bros named Sam.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,373
    DavidL said:

    Timpson's are amazing:

    "Here is where our 18 holiday homes are for colleagues to have a free break on us."

    https://twitter.com/JamesTCobbler/status/1718189521664184348

    The employment opportunities they give former prisoners are probably amongst the most effective programs we have to get people onto the straight and narrow and we don’t even pay for it. Give them business when we can. They are fab.

    They're excellent at repairing high quality shoes, which is what I use them for.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 59,331
    Another Lab front bencher calls for ceasefire:

    https://twitter.com/PaulaBarkerMP/status/1718235450651955711
  • Options
    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,247
    Leon said:

    Campaign to save Liverpool Street Station:
    https://justgiving.com/campaign/savelivstreet

    I must admit the proposed building looks rather poor.

    I see the sky was nice and blue in the “before” photos and gray and depressing in the “after” shot…
    You can hardly blame the campaigners for using the architects’ own renders…

    And the proposed building is quite grotesque
    I suspect it has been retouched. No architect would have done that

  • Options
    Taz said:

    Someone called Ash Regan (nope, me neither) has left the SNP group in Holyrood and joined the true voice for Indy, Alba.

    She finished third in the SNP leadership race to succeed Sturgeon a few months ago.
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,194

    Another Lab front bencher calls for ceasefire:

    https://twitter.com/PaulaBarkerMP/status/1718235450651955711

    I mean, everyone sensible agrees with all of those points. It’s just that most us see no prospect of Hamas doing its part, and don’t expect Israel to act first, unilaterally.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,342
    Leon said:

    Strong rumours on Reddit that OpenAI have achieved AGI to the level of “median human” - which will destroy ~10% of all jobs worldwide (mainly white collar)

    This is happening now. If they have AGI they may only be a year or two from ASI and then it’s game over. Especially if the AIs are recursive. Self improving. AI becomes God by April 2025?

    Remember you read it here first. And probably last

    Pretty much what people were telling me behind closed doors last month. They have far, far more powerful models unreleased, as they're actually afraid of what it will do, and how it will change everything.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,635

    But he was saying that a generation ago...

    [feels old now :(]

  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,194
    NB: Without is in the room there’s a good chance the EU tries to ban powerful AI.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,499
    Taz said:

    Someone called Ash Regan (nope, me neither) has left the SNP group in Holyrood and joined the true voice for Indy, Alba.

    During the leadership campaign she was thought to be close to Salmond and possibly taking advice from him. Really, just another sign of the stresses and strains being placed on the SNP coalition. An outcome of Nicola's decision to take the party down a radical/progressive line which always risked alienating social conservatives and those who can do math.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,178

    Another Lab front bencher calls for ceasefire:

    https://twitter.com/PaulaBarkerMP/status/1718235450651955711

    They are actually calling several things, two of them 'immediate', ie a ceasefire (doesn't say how long for) and release of all hostages. This is very different from the extremists call for 'ceasefire' while being in denial about hostages; and while people may have technical quibbles about Barker's position it is balanced and rational.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    biggles said:

    NB: Without is in the room there’s a good chance the EU tries to ban powerful AI.

    You can no more ban AI than “ban electricity”

    If the EU tries then - at best - it will be the only part of the world without electricity
  • Options

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
  • Options

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    Its painfully obvious that the SNP have failed to have any kind of succession plan for Sturgeon, and don't seem to have a clue what they are about now that the push for independence has failed.

    I think Alex Salmond is an arrogant toad, but like Farage he offers an alternative to people of that persuasion fed up with the chaos / timidity of the big party.

    So why not? Most SNP MPs will lose their seats anyway, and the majority in Holyrood looks perilous. What is there to lose?
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,194
    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    NB: Without is in the room there’s a good chance the EU tries to ban powerful AI.

    You can no more ban AI than “ban electricity”

    If the EU tries then - at best - it will be the only part of the world without electricity
    I agree. But I think it will. A complex AI model will be hard for them to reconcile with an unreformed GDPR.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,178

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    It might be worth keeping an eye on Kate Forbes, who is naturally really a centrist One Nation person, except for her preference for Two Nations. Another of the Free CoS MSPs has already left for the Tories.

    I doubt if she will be keen on the slightly Palestinian bias being shown by her leader (for whom of course every allowance must be made for his family's personal circumstance), whose utterances taken as a whole look too much like the 'ceasefire now, don't mention the hostages' line.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,585
    A

    This post is dreck. Absolute, undiluted dreck.

    I'm not a massive fan of Cyclefree's off-piste diversions away from politics but at least they're cogently argued and generally interesting. This isn't. This is boomer prejudice masquerading as commentary, and if I wanted to read half-arsed boomer opinions about nEt zERo!!11 then I'd go over to Facebook which at least has the decency to intersperse the drivel with pictures of attractive 20-something influencers on top of a mountain or something.

    I'm not going to flounce because I'm a third-division minor commenter on PB at best, and no one would, or indeed should, notice if I cleared off. But I don't see a whole bunch of point in sticking around for apprentice Allister Heathery like this. See you in the next politics thread.

    @Cyclefree’s posts are very closely tied to politics - ethics, accountability and good management are core to how the country should be run.

    I disagree with this header. And that is a good thing. If all you do is sit in your own echo chamber, everyone patting the person to the right on their back, all round the circle.. then you have nothing.

    Constructive debate between opposing positions is how we test out ideas.

    More than one person has commented that if you implemented the policies that have survived PB debate, you’d be doing better than many a government.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,003
    edited October 2023
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Day from hell update. After a long dark night of the soul perched on and over the bog I managed to make it to the first airport and flight without barfing and with just a couple of trips to the gents.

    Now I’m in Istanbul airport, largest terminal in the known universe, and they don’t have an airside pharmacy. Even LCY has an airside boots. So no Imodium, rehydration sachets or magnesium tablets until home.

    Travelling while ill is not recommended.

    Non Diet Coke is not the worst substitute as an emergency measure.


    A friend of mine had lived and worked in RSA for some years. I well recall his remark that Coca-cola - evidently the non diet variety as you say - had been a huge blessing when they needed some emergency rehyd whenever their two boys (in particular) got the runs. Though ISTR they added a pinch of salt as well. Edit: but DYOR before adopting this!

    And commiserations to TimS.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,585
    eristdoof said:

    On Topic.
    The problem with global warming has always been that it is a global problem and a long term problem. No one country can solve the problem alone not even China. Even if China somehow magiced away their entire CO2 output in the next 12 months, most of the slack would be taken up by India and many other countries because coal, oil and gas would become so much cheaper.

    There are two advantages with taking unilateral action though. The first is that it helps on the political level. The UK has in the last 10 years become a world leader, but quite a lot of countries have similar intentions and are not far behind. As more countries get on board the harder it will be for other countries to continue with the "I don't care" policy to climate change. One country has to be first and with out a first there cannot be a second or a hundredth country. The second advanage is being a leader in the reduction of CO2 & Methane brings a huge economic advantage, in manufacturing and technical expertise. There are other sectors in which 'climate leading countries' will also have a head start, agriculture being a clear example.

    Looking at it from the side of inaction, doing nothing will also cost a huge amount of money. The cost will be global, but Russia, China and India will also be hit very hard if they continue of their business as usual approach. It is better to get most countries to invest in solving the problem rather than paying for the result of the problems.

    We are in a global multiplayer version of the prisoner's dilemma. We need to find a way out of the prisoners dilemma, for all the "prisoner's" to collabrate and to minimise the global cost. I look forward to reading Alanbrooke's solution to the prisoner's dilemma.

    It’s more a convergence on state capitalism. Which tried to remove the market and fix the game in favour of the established Proper Big Players.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,450
    This should go swimmingly. I wonder what might get discussed.

    Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia is expected to visit Britain in the coming months for the first time since the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi
    @TheTimes
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,348
    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

  • Options

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    Its painfully obvious that the SNP have failed to have any kind of succession plan for Sturgeon, and don't seem to have a clue what they are about now that the push for independence has failed.

    I think Alex Salmond is an arrogant toad, but like Farage he offers an alternative to people of that persuasion fed up with the chaos / timidity of the big party.

    So why not? Most SNP MPs will lose their seats anyway, and the majority in Holyrood looks perilous. What is there to lose?
    Nothing more embarrassing than jumping from a ship that may provide at least an honourable second to one where you’ve a good chance of losing your deposit (an outcome of which an SLD would have all too recent experience), some people’s egos will be making that calculation.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,348
    The last major ISP in Gaza stopped working yesterday, saying IDF strikes had completely severed its infrastructure. Practically no one there will see this message.
    https://twitter.com/kevincollier/status/1718242920359170318
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,585
    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,373
    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    The Russian version of the Manifest Destiny, in Siberia, the Caucusus, and Central Asia, was actually more brutal than the American version.

    General Yermolov's advice to his commanders was: "If in doubt, exterminate."
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,003
    algarkirk said:

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    It might be worth keeping an eye on Kate Forbes, who is naturally really a centrist One Nation person, except for her preference for Two Nations. Another of the Free CoS MSPs has already left for the Tories.

    I doubt if she will be keen on the slightly Palestinian bias being shown by her leader (for whom of course every allowance must be made for his family's personal circumstance), whose utterances taken as a whole look too much like the 'ceasefire now, don't mention the hostages' line.
    Eh? Hostages here:

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23884027.anas-sarwar-calls-ceasefire-israel-hamas/
    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23884907.humza-yousaf-calls-uk-political-leaders-back-gaza-ceasefire/
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,545
    kle4 said:

    This should go swimmingly. I wonder what might get discussed.

    Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia is expected to visit Britain in the coming months for the first time since the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi
    @TheTimes

    Well, what might get discussed is the investment in the UK of some of the three trillion dollars floating around the ME as a result of the higher oil prices following the Russian invasion of Ukraine...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,348

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    America is also an empire
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,722
    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    Is it legitimate to flatten a building housing hundreds of civilians to kill a few Hamas fighters ?

    Where do you draw the line ?

    The answer is no, hence the ground invasion which will result in far, far fewer civilian deaths in Gaza than aerial bombardment but at a huge cost for Israel both in blood and treasure.
    If that had been the case then civilian casualties would surely have been much lower .

    I don't think we know what the civilian casualties look like, the hospital incident is the most instructive here. Reported Hamas/PHO as an Israeli strike that killed hundreds of civilians, then increased to over 500, later after investigating independent sources now say well under a 100 died (French media report 10-50 according to French intelligence) due to an errant missile fired from Gaza at Israel. At a stroke we've taken at least 450 off the official 4000 death toll reported by Hamas and repeated by the UN/WHO.

    That's not to minimise the suffering, yet the true number of civilian deaths will be substantially lower and in a war there will always be collateral damage and civilians have had weeks of notice now to leave certain areas.
    I don’t think you have taken at least 450 off the official 4000 death toll. You’re conflating two different data series, albeit from a related source.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,585
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    You’d have thought the explicit second class status for non Russians in the USSR would have been a clue.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    Nigelb said:

    The last major ISP in Gaza stopped working yesterday, saying IDF strikes had completely severed its infrastructure. Practically no one there will see this message.
    https://twitter.com/kevincollier/status/1718242920359170318

    In south Gaza they can surely access Egyptian mobile networks. I’ve been on the Israeli/egyptian border and (as everywhere) the mobile networks overlap

    Not a great consolation as your entire city is levelled but it’s probably not true they are entirely without internet
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,450

    kle4 said:

    This should go swimmingly. I wonder what might get discussed.

    Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia is expected to visit Britain in the coming months for the first time since the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi
    @TheTimes

    Well, what might get discussed is the investment in the UK of some of the three trillion dollars floating around the ME as a result of the higher oil prices following the Russian invasion of Ukraine...
    *quiet voice*
    IwouldlikeatthistimetoexpressconcernoveryourhumanrightsrecordandoutrageatthedeathofJamalKhashoggi...

    *normal voice*
    What would you like to purchase, I mean, invest in?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,450

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    Its painfully obvious that the SNP have failed to have any kind of succession plan for Sturgeon, and don't seem to have a clue what they are about now that the push for independence has failed.

    I think Alex Salmond is an arrogant toad, but like Farage he offers an alternative to people of that persuasion fed up with the chaos / timidity of the big party.

    So why not? Most SNP MPs will lose their seats anyway, and the majority in Holyrood looks perilous. What is there to lose?
    Can't say I entirely blame them for not having a succession plan. Athough Sturgeon had been there for some time she's not old and the expectation seemed to be she would be there for some time.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    The western coast of Sicily is such a shit-hole. Mile after mile of dereliction and ruin

    Worse than anything in the UK. As bad as the worst bits of Romania

    Quite hard to believe it’s in Western Europe
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,763

    ydoethur said:

    > China 29% of world emissions, I can’t honestly see them take the remotest interest

    If we're going to have posts that don't have any betting content than that's fine and I do appreciate that it takes a lot of effort to write them. But just a little bit of research to check your assumptions might be nice?

    A link has been provided at the top of the article.
    I think it was a reference to this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/29/china-wind-solar-power-global-renewable-energy-leader
    But then theres also

    https://time.com/6090732/china-coal-power-plants-emissions/

    the point being while China is doing some good things on the ground its also doing some bad ones and in total it intends to do what suits it, not what suits us.
    It's the 'tragedy of the commons'.
    There's only one world and each country has to do it's bit for the common good. Saying we're only small so should give up is short sighted.
    So, I'm in favour of investing in technology that will cost a bit now but will give us basically free energy when built.
    How can we reduce the cost? Maybe reducing subsidies to fossil fuels.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/09/fossil-fuels-more-support-uk-than-renewables-since-2015
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,348
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    America is also an empire
    Indeed it is - and it is yet fully to come to terms with the destruction of the indigenous inhabitants.
    But unlike Russia, it has given up on territorial expansion by military means.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,348
    edited October 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    America is also an empire
    Indeed it is - and it is yet fully to come to terms with the destruction of the indigenous inhabitants.
    But unlike Russia, it has given up on territorial expansion by military means.
    Has it? Trump tried to buy Greenland

    Tho I guess that was non-military
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,450
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    America is also an empire
    Indeed it is - and it is yet fully to come to terms with the destruction of the indigenous inhabitants.
    But unlike Russia, it has given up on territorial expansion by military means.
    Until the last few years nations had gotten a bit embarrassed at the idea of openly just seizing more territory by force. Lots of frozen disputes, border clashes, and angry talk without really escalating things to full scale invasion and conquest. Seems to be making a comeback.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,348
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    The last major ISP in Gaza stopped working yesterday, saying IDF strikes had completely severed its infrastructure. Practically no one there will see this message.
    https://twitter.com/kevincollier/status/1718242920359170318

    In south Gaza they can surely access Egyptian mobile networks. I’ve been on the Israeli/egyptian border and (as everywhere) the mobile networks overlap

    Not a great consolation as your entire city is levelled but it’s probably not true they are entirely without internet
    Today’s reporting indicates that there’s widespread blocking of mobile reception in Gaza. As Mark Regev noted when interviewed on R4 this morning, disruption of mobile communication is standard military practice.
    There’s very little information coming and going from Gaza at the moment.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,178
    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    It might be worth keeping an eye on Kate Forbes, who is naturally really a centrist One Nation person, except for her preference for Two Nations. Another of the Free CoS MSPs has already left for the Tories.

    I doubt if she will be keen on the slightly Palestinian bias being shown by her leader (for whom of course every allowance must be made for his family's personal circumstance), whose utterances taken as a whole look too much like the 'ceasefire now, don't mention the hostages' line.
    Eh? Hostages here:

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23884027.anas-sarwar-calls-ceasefire-israel-hamas/
    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23884907.humza-yousaf-calls-uk-political-leaders-back-gaza-ceasefire/
    Recent TwiX.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,722
    Taz said:

    Someone called Ash Regan (nope, me neither) has left the SNP group in Holyrood and joined the true voice for Indy, Alba.

    Actual political betting news!

    Alba got off to a good start with 2 MPs defecting to them, but this is their first MSP. They were the 6th largest party at the last Scottish Parliamentary election, but still some way off winning a seat. Might they win a seat next time? Do they have any chance at the next general election of holding their defections?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,914

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    Is it legitimate to flatten a building housing hundreds of civilians to kill a few Hamas fighters ?

    Where do you draw the line ?

    The answer is no, hence the ground invasion which will result in far, far fewer civilian deaths in Gaza than aerial bombardment but at a huge cost for Israel both in blood and treasure.
    If that had been the case then civilian casualties would surely have been much lower .

    I don't think we know what the civilian casualties look like, the hospital incident is the most instructive here. Reported Hamas/PHO as an Israeli strike that killed hundreds of civilians, then increased to over 500, later after investigating independent sources now say well under a 100 died (French media report 10-50 according to French intelligence) due to an errant missile fired from Gaza at Israel. At a stroke we've taken at least 450 off the official 4000 death toll reported by Hamas and repeated by the UN/WHO.

    That's not to minimise the suffering, yet the true number of civilian deaths will be substantially lower and in a war there will always be collateral damage and civilians have had weeks of notice now to leave certain areas.
    I don’t think you have taken at least 450 off the official 4000 death toll. You’re conflating two different data series, albeit from a related source.
    Considering the amount of destruction in civilian housing etc, I think it unlikely that the true death toll will be known for months if at at all. There must be lots of bodies in the rubble.

    Thousands seem a reasonable guesstimate, even for pro Israel sources.
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,194
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    America is also an empire
    Indeed it is - and it is yet fully to come to terms with the destruction of the indigenous inhabitants.
    But unlike Russia, it has given up on territorial expansion by military means.
    Until the last few years nations had gotten a bit embarrassed at the idea of openly just seizing more territory by force. Lots of frozen disputes, border clashes, and angry talk without really escalating things to full scale invasion and conquest. Seems to be making a comeback.
    Does that mean we can retake our historic possessions in France?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,012
    theProle said:

    Just read the header.

    "And then of course there’s the reality climate change might have some benefits."

    Sorry, but you've lost all credibility.

    He's not wrong. In about 5,000 years, Birmingham will be able to assume its rightful role as capital of the British Archipelago:

    UK Map
    Can we have it sooner than that? Billions of powers worth of improvements done to London there!
    Looks like I may well have a sea view. Excellent.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,373
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    America is also an empire
    Indeed it is - and it is yet fully to come to terms with the destruction of the indigenous inhabitants.
    But unlike Russia, it has given up on territorial expansion by military means.
    Until the last few years nations had gotten a bit embarrassed at the idea of openly just seizing more territory by force. Lots of frozen disputes, border clashes, and angry talk without really escalating things to full scale invasion and conquest. Seems to be making a comeback.
    Right of Conquest was an accepted part of customary international law, until after WWII.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,450

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    Its painfully obvious that the SNP have failed to have any kind of succession plan for Sturgeon, and don't seem to have a clue what they are about now that the push for independence has failed.

    I think Alex Salmond is an arrogant toad, but like Farage he offers an alternative to people of that persuasion fed up with the chaos / timidity of the big party.

    So why not? Most SNP MPs will lose their seats anyway, and the majority in Holyrood looks perilous. What is there to lose?
    Nothing more embarrassing than jumping from a ship that may provide at least an honourable second to one where you’ve a good chance of losing your deposit (an outcome of which an SLD would have all too recent experience), some people’s egos will be making that calculation.
    Yes, how much would it hurt the target (by jumping) if you then appear to have a negligible impact on things?

    I'm not really clear on what Alba are intending to do for the next GE, or what they'll even be able to do whatever they would like.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,450
    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    America is also an empire
    Indeed it is - and it is yet fully to come to terms with the destruction of the indigenous inhabitants.
    But unlike Russia, it has given up on territorial expansion by military means.
    Until the last few years nations had gotten a bit embarrassed at the idea of openly just seizing more territory by force. Lots of frozen disputes, border clashes, and angry talk without really escalating things to full scale invasion and conquest. Seems to be making a comeback.
    Does that mean we can retake our historic possessions in France?
    With our armed forces? No we couldn't.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    Its painfully obvious that the SNP have failed to have any kind of succession plan for Sturgeon, and don't seem to have a clue what they are about now that the push for independence has failed.

    I think Alex Salmond is an arrogant toad, but like Farage he offers an alternative to people of that persuasion fed up with the chaos / timidity of the big party.

    So why not? Most SNP MPs will lose their seats anyway, and the majority in Holyrood looks perilous. What is there to lose?
    Can't say I entirely blame them for not having a succession plan. Athough Sturgeon had been there for some time she's not old and the expectation seemed to be she would be there for some time.
    When was the last successful (or even identifiable) succession plan for any major UK party, Blair>Brown, or even Salmond>Sturgeon? Opinions will differ on how successful they were. I think it’s one of these things that’s often mentioned but is much rarer in reality.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,348
    .
    kle4 said:

    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    America is also an empire
    Indeed it is - and it is yet fully to come to terms with the destruction of the indigenous inhabitants.
    But unlike Russia, it has given up on territorial expansion by military means.
    Until the last few years nations had gotten a bit embarrassed at the idea of openly just seizing more territory by force. Lots of frozen disputes, border clashes, and angry talk without really escalating things to full scale invasion and conquest. Seems to be making a comeback.
    Does that mean we can retake our historic possessions in France?
    With our armed forces? No we couldn't.
    No, but Germany should watch out for Poland.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,012

    kle4 said:

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    Its painfully obvious that the SNP have failed to have any kind of succession plan for Sturgeon, and don't seem to have a clue what they are about now that the push for independence has failed.

    I think Alex Salmond is an arrogant toad, but like Farage he offers an alternative to people of that persuasion fed up with the chaos / timidity of the big party.

    So why not? Most SNP MPs will lose their seats anyway, and the majority in Holyrood looks perilous. What is there to lose?
    Can't say I entirely blame them for not having a succession plan. Athough Sturgeon had been there for some time she's not old and the expectation seemed to be she would be there for some time.
    When was the last successful (or even identifiable) succession plan for any major UK party, Blair>Brown, or even Salmond>Sturgeon? Opinions will differ on how successful they were. I think it’s one of these things that’s often mentioned but is much rarer in reality.
    It's almost as if those in charge right now don't think that focusing on who their successor will be is a priority.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,348

    kle4 said:

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    She had one SNP endorser in the leadership election, Joanna Cherry. I’d enjoy it if she did, but JC is too self important to shackle herself to under (non really) performers like Alba.
    Its painfully obvious that the SNP have failed to have any kind of succession plan for Sturgeon, and don't seem to have a clue what they are about now that the push for independence has failed.

    I think Alex Salmond is an arrogant toad, but like Farage he offers an alternative to people of that persuasion fed up with the chaos / timidity of the big party.

    So why not? Most SNP MPs will lose their seats anyway, and the majority in Holyrood looks perilous. What is there to lose?
    Can't say I entirely blame them for not having a succession plan. Athough Sturgeon had been there for some time she's not old and the expectation seemed to be she would be there for some time.
    When was the last successful (or even identifiable) succession plan for any major UK party, Blair>Brown, or even Salmond>Sturgeon? Opinions will differ on how successful they were. I think it’s one of these things that’s often mentioned but is much rarer in reality.
    Thatcher>Major, arguably.
    And even that was pretty last moment stuff.
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,194
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    Is it legitimate to flatten a building housing hundreds of civilians to kill a few Hamas fighters ?

    Where do you draw the line ?

    The answer is no, hence the ground invasion which will result in far, far fewer civilian deaths in Gaza than aerial bombardment but at a huge cost for Israel both in blood and treasure.
    If that had been the case then civilian casualties would surely have been much lower .

    I don't think we know what the civilian casualties look like, the hospital incident is the most instructive here. Reported Hamas/PHO as an Israeli strike that killed hundreds of civilians, then increased to over 500, later after investigating independent sources now say well under a 100 died (French media report 10-50 according to French intelligence) due to an errant missile fired from Gaza at Israel. At a stroke we've taken at least 450 off the official 4000 death toll reported by Hamas and repeated by the UN/WHO.

    That's not to minimise the suffering, yet the true number of civilian deaths will be substantially lower and in a war there will always be collateral damage and civilians have had weeks of notice now to leave certain areas.
    I don’t think you have taken at least 450 off the official 4000 death toll. You’re conflating two different data series, albeit from a related source.
    Considering the amount of destruction in civilian housing etc, I think it unlikely that the true death toll will be known for months if at at all. There must be lots of bodies in the rubble.

    Thousands seem a reasonable guesstimate, even for pro Israel sources.
    Closest parallel is probably Fullijah (assault on large urban area by modern military trying to avoid civilian casualties). I think that was about 1000 civilian deaths, and it was maybe 1/10th the population/scale. (Not saying we would therefore assume 10,000 deaths but thousands is likely).

    War in cities is horrible and no one should ever trivialise it.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,450

    Lets hope that Ms Regan leads a sizeable split in the SNP. Wouldn't that be fun!

    Hasn't been an exciting political story out of there for months, most disappointing. Wales tried its best with a row about 20mph rules, but it never really took off, Northern Ireland has been stuck in a loop for about 5 years, and England is just watching in morbid fascination as the government slowly circles the drain.
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,194
    kle4 said:

    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russia’s Slaughter of Indigenous People in Alaska Tells Us Something Important About Ukraine
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/27/russia-colonization-alaska-ukraine-00123352
    … The removal of Baranov’s statue never cracked into the national news cycle. And maybe that’s understandable, given the protests rocking the rest of the country at the time. But it’s also understandable for a related reason: Russia’s colonization of Alaska — and the rampant violence, spiraling massacres and decimation of local Alaska Native populations that came along with it — is hardly well-known among the broader American body politic. Even with new reassessments of European colonization of North America, as well as the recent spike in scholarship regarding the U.S.’s bloodied imperialism across the American West, Russia’s role in smothering and seizing Alaska stands apart as an overlooked chapter of colonialism on the continent.

    It’s also an overlooked aspect of Russian history inside Russia. Official accounts of Russian expansion suggest that Russia simply agglomerated neighboring peoples as part of its defensive acquisition of territory, happily gathering new peoples and new lands into Moscow’s embrace. In Russia’s telling, the word “colonialism” applies to only other empires, not to the Russian one. As Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently claimed, Russia has “not stained itself with the bloody crimes of colonialism.”

    But as the removal of Baranov’s statue indicates, Russia’s colonial legacy is hardly forgotten in Alaska. And given Russia’s renewed lurch toward imperialism in places like Ukraine, that legacy is arguably more resonant now than it’s been in decades — or perhaps ever.

    In Western universities and research institutes, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine triggered a sweeping reassessment of Russia’s relationship with other peoples and nations, including Ukraine. For decades, Western scholars saw the Soviet Union as a fundamentally different country from the Russian Empire that preceded it, and analyzed its system and behaviors primarily through the regime’s communist ideology. As such, when the Soviet Union collapsed, many in the West assumed that once Moscow had shed communism, democracy would naturally follow.

    But post-Soviet Russia has turned out differently, and both inside and outside Russia, scholars and analysts are discerning important throughlines in patterns and practices from tsarist times to the present. One of those throughlines is colonialism, which is turning out to be one of the best explanations for Russia’s aggression against Ukraine...

    As Churchill noted to the ghost of his father, the Tsar comes from a new family, and is much more despotic than Nicholas II…

    Both Russia and China were empires and are still empires. They use force to hold themselves together, and treat their colonial subjects abominably.
    We’ve talked about it for some considerable time.
    But the notion that Russia and its territories have been a continuous empire since the tsars seems to be a novel idea for quite a few.
    America is also an empire
    Indeed it is - and it is yet fully to come to terms with the destruction of the indigenous inhabitants.
    But unlike Russia, it has given up on territorial expansion by military means.
    Until the last few years nations had gotten a bit embarrassed at the idea of openly just seizing more territory by force. Lots of frozen disputes, border clashes, and angry talk without really escalating things to full scale invasion and conquest. Seems to be making a comeback.
    Does that mean we can retake our historic possessions in France?
    With our armed forces? No we couldn't.
    You haven’t seen the French….
This discussion has been closed.