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Now a move to exclude party members from leadership elections – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    theProle said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    The latest in the Britishvolt saga.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67149907

    It's frankly pathetic that the government has allowed what is a significant national energy infrastructure site to fall into the hands of successive chancers with no serious plans.

    Nationalise it. In a world full of complex problems, it is nice to have one that is solved quickly.
    If they did that, it would be British Leyland Mk2. Buying a dubious brand, a few aces of mud and some grand intentions seem like a particularly poor waste of taxpayers money.
    At least British Leyland started with the advantage of actually having a load of car plants building cars.

    If Toyota's recent claims about solid state batteries are true, the current government push for cars built on wet batteries is going to look as stupid and misguided as the millions wasted on replacing incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescents just before LED technology matured.

    Governments everywhere have lots of form for picking poor technologies and forcing them on everyone at vast expense.
    Toyotas own timeline says that the 600 mile, 10 min charging, solid state battery is years away. It’s worth noting that the predictions for the current battery chemistries has similar performance at that date.

    That’s the thing about competing technologies - and why they are a good idea.

    Further, the government isn’t mandating cell chemistries. As with other governments, they are promoting BEVs in the general sense.
    Mercedes have managed to get 1,000km of range out of a 100kW battery.

    https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/mercedes-vision-eqxx-has-driven-over-1000km-single-charge

    Yes it’s a very expensive prototype, driven by a professional driver, with a whole bunch of F1-derived technology used to get weight out and reduce drag, but it’s an illustration of what’s possible with current tech.

    If developed down to the same price as an E-class, it would satisfy a huge amount of the market that’s currently fearful of EVs.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744

    Just listened to Sunak speaking in Israel. Again I am reminded how uncanny valley a lot of his presentation is. Superficially it is good. It’s got the Blair mannerisms and tics. He should be coming across as charismatic.

    But something just doesn’t click, and it makes him sound stilted and just ‘off’. I have been trying for some time to work out why this is but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. I think my only suggestion is that Blair and Cameron managed to do insincerity whilst appearing sincere, whereas Rishi just looks insincere.

    I don't think it's quite that, though it's close. I'd say it's more that Blair and Cameron could do it entirely naturally and instinctively whereas Sunak is not a natural frontman and his presentation retains too many habits of a learned skill, one that he's not completely comfortable doing. That makes it appear too forced and hence, artificial - hence the perception of insincerity.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    edited October 2023
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Armed police confront 13 year old boy with water pistol

    "Boy with water pistol confronted by armed police - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67148208

    We need a photo of the device.

    We also need to recall that the police were there due to a report of a suspected firearm.

    Here was one which caused a previous "scandal" (below), linked from the BBC story, where a 12 year old was arrested for a 'weapon' that turned out to be a pellet gun.

    We need to remember that in the most year reported (21-22 iirc), there were FOUR incidents where police intentionally discharged firearms in the entire country.

    This part of the system seems to work to me.

    It’s one of those peculiar British quirks that works surprisingly well in practice. There are very few countries where police do not almost all routinely carry guns.

    It’s all very confusing to Americans! https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/why-london-won-t-arm-all-police-despite-severe-terror-n737551
    Also, if you look at the list, all the others have relatively small populations. IIRC Britain is the only place with more than 10 million people where the police don't usually carry guns.
  • ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Armed police confront 13 year old boy with water pistol

    "Boy with water pistol confronted by armed police - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67148208

    We need a photo of the device.

    We also need to recall that the police were there due to a report of a suspected firearm.

    Here was one which caused a previous "scandal" (below), linked from the BBC story, where a 12 year old was arrested for a 'weapon' that turned out to be a pellet gun.

    We need to remember that in the most year reported (21-22 iirc), there were FOUR incidents where police intentionally discharged firearms in the entire country.

    This part of the system seems to work to me.

    It’s one of those peculiar British quirks that works surprisingly well in practice. There are very few countries where police do not almost all routinely carry guns.

    It’s all very confusing to Americans! https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/why-london-won-t-arm-all-police-despite-severe-terror-n737551
    Meanwhile their passionate attachment to the 2nd Amendment is very confusing to the rest of us.
    Its a difficult trade off to be fair. Accept mass killings including in schools, domestic violence incidents having a high risk of turning into murder, kids thinking its a toy and killing someone accidently vs the theoretical right of citizens to try and fight against the state and the right to buy a shiny gun with the latest gadgetry.

    Tough to resolve this one.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    Alan Partridge is a nicer person than Steve Coogan.
    You're probably only saying that because Partridge is a Conservative. People tend to impute positive qualities to those who share their politics.
    Partridge is a cock. Coogan even more so.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    edited October 2023

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    Let's not ever forget that the statue of Robert Peel, in the centre of Tamworth, had to be covered up in 2020 because it was felt to be in danger due to the George Floyd protests.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/robert-peel-statue-tamworth-boarded-up-protesters-a4467831.html
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792

    Just listened to Sunak speaking in Israel. Again I am reminded how uncanny valley a lot of his presentation is. Superficially it is good. It’s got the Blair mannerisms and tics. He should be coming across as charismatic.

    But something just doesn’t click, and it makes him sound stilted and just ‘off’. I have been trying for some time to work out why this is but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. I think my only suggestion is that Blair and Cameron managed to do insincerity whilst appearing sincere, whereas Rishi just looks insincere.

    I don't think it's quite that, though it's close. I'd say it's more that Blair and Cameron could do it entirely naturally and instinctively whereas Sunak is not a natural frontman and his presentation retains too many habits of a learned skill, one that he's not completely comfortable doing. That makes it appear too forced and hence, artificial - hence the perception of insincerity.
    Agree with both of these. I'd also note that Starmer is exactly the same. Even when I know he is sincere he sounds insincere.
    Both also have slightly nasal accents. I don't think it's impossible to sound sincere with a nasal accent but it is certainly more difficult!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    Alan Partridge is a nicer person than Steve Coogan.
    Yes, true. I would rather spend an hour in a pub with Alan than with Steve.
    I've met Steve Coogan and he seemed alright!
    I've met him and he was very nice. I take the approach of just rolling my eyes when I hear about his politics and just appreciate his work that I am a fan of.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    Cookie said:

    Just listened to Sunak speaking in Israel. Again I am reminded how uncanny valley a lot of his presentation is. Superficially it is good. It’s got the Blair mannerisms and tics. He should be coming across as charismatic.

    But something just doesn’t click, and it makes him sound stilted and just ‘off’. I have been trying for some time to work out why this is but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. I think my only suggestion is that Blair and Cameron managed to do insincerity whilst appearing sincere, whereas Rishi just looks insincere.

    I don't think it's quite that, though it's close. I'd say it's more that Blair and Cameron could do it entirely naturally and instinctively whereas Sunak is not a natural frontman and his presentation retains too many habits of a learned skill, one that he's not completely comfortable doing. That makes it appear too forced and hence, artificial - hence the perception of insincerity.
    Agree with both of these. I'd also note that Starmer is exactly the same. Even when I know he is sincere he sounds insincere.
    Both also have slightly nasal accents. I don't think it's impossible to sound sincere with a nasal accent but it is certainly more difficult!
    Are you implying Ken Livingstone is insincere ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Cookie said:

    Just listened to Sunak speaking in Israel. Again I am reminded how uncanny valley a lot of his presentation is. Superficially it is good. It’s got the Blair mannerisms and tics. He should be coming across as charismatic.

    But something just doesn’t click, and it makes him sound stilted and just ‘off’. I have been trying for some time to work out why this is but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. I think my only suggestion is that Blair and Cameron managed to do insincerity whilst appearing sincere, whereas Rishi just looks insincere.

    I don't think it's quite that, though it's close. I'd say it's more that Blair and Cameron could do it entirely naturally and instinctively whereas Sunak is not a natural frontman and his presentation retains too many habits of a learned skill, one that he's not completely comfortable doing. That makes it appear too forced and hence, artificial - hence the perception of insincerity.
    Agree with both of these. I'd also note that Starmer is exactly the same. Even when I know he is sincere he sounds insincere.
    Both also have slightly nasal accents. I don't think it's impossible to sound sincere with a nasal accent but it is certainly more difficult!
    The money Margaret Thatcher spent on a voice coach (or similar) was money well spent.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    Just listened to Sunak speaking in Israel. Again I am reminded how uncanny valley a lot of his presentation is. Superficially it is good. It’s got the Blair mannerisms and tics. He should be coming across as charismatic.

    But something just doesn’t click, and it makes him sound stilted and just ‘off’. I have been trying for some time to work out why this is but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. I think my only suggestion is that Blair and Cameron managed to do insincerity whilst appearing sincere, whereas Rishi just looks insincere.

    It's like he's learnt how to do it by reading an instruction manual and studiously practising, over and over again. It was similar to his time as Chancellor, where his budgets were like a pastiche of the Brown/Osborne budgets, but with no understanding of how to apply the general politics to the specifics of the situation he faced.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    Alan Partridge is a nicer person than Steve Coogan.
    You're probably only saying that because Partridge is a Conservative. People tend to impute positive qualities to those who share their politics.
    Alan just wants to be liked and approved. He wants to fit in.

    That doesn’t make him bad.

    As for politics he was Tory in his early years when Peter Baynham and Armando Ianucci wrote for him. His politics rarely get mentioned these days.
    Alan would have definitly voted for Blair over Major. Would have voted for Cameron. Would have voted for Boris. Would now vote for Starmer.

    he's basically middle england in a nut shell. He's a Mondeo Man.
    In a nutshell, although his car of choice would be the Japanese Mercedes since Rover ceased trading.
    I beleive in the movie he drove a lexus. But similar vibe.
    The singular of Lexi, which he calls the Japanese Mercedes 😀
    You are a true Partridge Scholar sir...
    In a word, very probably !!!!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792

    Cookie said:

    Just listened to Sunak speaking in Israel. Again I am reminded how uncanny valley a lot of his presentation is. Superficially it is good. It’s got the Blair mannerisms and tics. He should be coming across as charismatic.

    But something just doesn’t click, and it makes him sound stilted and just ‘off’. I have been trying for some time to work out why this is but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. I think my only suggestion is that Blair and Cameron managed to do insincerity whilst appearing sincere, whereas Rishi just looks insincere.

    I don't think it's quite that, though it's close. I'd say it's more that Blair and Cameron could do it entirely naturally and instinctively whereas Sunak is not a natural frontman and his presentation retains too many habits of a learned skill, one that he's not completely comfortable doing. That makes it appear too forced and hence, artificial - hence the perception of insincerity.
    Agree with both of these. I'd also note that Starmer is exactly the same. Even when I know he is sincere he sounds insincere.
    Both also have slightly nasal accents. I don't think it's impossible to sound sincere with a nasal accent but it is certainly more difficult!
    Are you implying Ken Livingstone is insincere ?
    Haha - no - it's not true that all nasal people sound insincere. But a nasal accent makes it harder!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    Let's not ever forget that the statue of Robert Peel, in the centre of Tamworth, had to be covered up in 2020 because it was felt to be in danger due to the George Floyd protests.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/robert-peel-statue-tamworth-boarded-up-protesters-a4467831.html
    Hmm, no evidence given for the threat. Other than the late lamented MP for the constituency.

    Has the supposedly clear and [edit] then present threat to the statue played a part in the current by-election?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    theProle said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    The latest in the Britishvolt saga.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67149907

    It's frankly pathetic that the government has allowed what is a significant national energy infrastructure site to fall into the hands of successive chancers with no serious plans.

    Nationalise it. In a world full of complex problems, it is nice to have one that is solved quickly.
    If they did that, it would be British Leyland Mk2. Buying a dubious brand, a few aces of mud and some grand intentions seem like a particularly poor waste of taxpayers money.
    At least British Leyland started with the advantage of actually having a load of car plants building cars.

    If Toyota's recent claims about solid state batteries are true, the current government push for cars built on wet batteries is going to look as stupid and misguided as the millions wasted on replacing incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescents just before LED technology matured.

    Governments everywhere have lots of form for picking poor technologies and forcing them on everyone at vast expense.
    Citation for "millions wasted on replacing incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescents just before LED technology matured"?

    Quite possible that the energy savings outweighed the replacement costs, particularly at scale and I'd be surprised if CFLs were ditched for LEDs in general before they failed.

    Domestically, we replaced failing incadescents with CFLs and then failing CFLs with LEDs (the process was long enough that several CFLs got replaced by other CFLs before LEDs were competitive).

    I'm not familiar with stats on big (local government/government/commercial) roll-outs, but I'd have thought similar story there. Back when CFLs were first rolled out, I'd have thought any replacements of working incadescents will have been based on proven savings during the CLF lifetime.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Selebian said:

    theProle said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    The latest in the Britishvolt saga.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67149907

    It's frankly pathetic that the government has allowed what is a significant national energy infrastructure site to fall into the hands of successive chancers with no serious plans.

    Nationalise it. In a world full of complex problems, it is nice to have one that is solved quickly.
    If they did that, it would be British Leyland Mk2. Buying a dubious brand, a few aces of mud and some grand intentions seem like a particularly poor waste of taxpayers money.
    At least British Leyland started with the advantage of actually having a load of car plants building cars.

    If Toyota's recent claims about solid state batteries are true, the current government push for cars built on wet batteries is going to look as stupid and misguided as the millions wasted on replacing incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescents just before LED technology matured.

    Governments everywhere have lots of form for picking poor technologies and forcing them on everyone at vast expense.
    Citation for "millions wasted on replacing incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescents just before LED technology matured"?

    Quite possible that the energy savings outweighed the replacement costs, particularly at scale and I'd be surprised if CFLs were ditched for LEDs in general before they failed.

    Domestically, we replaced failing incadescents with CFLs and then failing CFLs with LEDs (the process was long enough that several CFLs got replaced by other CFLs before LEDs were competitive).

    I'm not familiar with stats on big (local government/government/commercial) roll-outs, but I'd have thought similar story there. Back when CFLs were first rolled out, I'd have thought any replacements of working incadescents will have been based on proven savings during the CLF lifetime.
    Same here. The power savings were substantial. Unless of course one wanted a very low level space heater for a locust cage or similar ...
  • kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Would the CD and record disposal take the form of quietly putting in the bin or a more ceremonial burning type event? And does this depend on the level of racism too?
  • I am sure @Foxy may be aware of this but following my wife's covid diagnosis this morning I reported it to my dedicated DVT nurse at the hospital who said it is more than possible that when I was under the weather last weekend, and stayed in bed, I actually had covid which apparently can affect the blood clotting and may have contributed to the DVT on the Monday

    I have taken the test which indicates I did have covid at the weekend

    Looks as if there is a lot to learn medically about the effects of covid
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Would the CD and record disposal take the form of quietly putting in the bin or a more ceremonial burning type event? And does this depend on the level of racism too?
    Or take them to the charity shop? Think about the implications ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    theProle said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    The latest in the Britishvolt saga.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67149907

    It's frankly pathetic that the government has allowed what is a significant national energy infrastructure site to fall into the hands of successive chancers with no serious plans.

    Nationalise it. In a world full of complex problems, it is nice to have one that is solved quickly.
    If they did that, it would be British Leyland Mk2. Buying a dubious brand, a few aces of mud and some grand intentions seem like a particularly poor waste of taxpayers money.
    At least British Leyland started with the advantage of actually having a load of car plants building cars.

    If Toyota's recent claims about solid state batteries are true, the current government push for cars built on wet batteries is going to look as stupid and misguided as the millions wasted on replacing incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescents just before LED technology matured.

    Governments everywhere have lots of form for picking poor technologies and forcing them on everyone at vast expense.
    It's the site that should be nationalised, as it's a strategic location.

    As for the particular battery technology, it's quite like that manufacturing plant can be adapted to different battery chemistries.

    In any event demand is going to be such that there will be room for a number of different formats. Solid state is unlikely to ramp up in volumes great enough to displace everything else until the end of the decade.
    And if (for the sake of argument) an incoming Labour govt did nationalise the site, by the time they found a manufacturing partner, the roadmap for batteries would be much clearer anyway.
  • Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Would the CD and record disposal take the form of quietly putting in the bin or a more ceremonial burning type event? And does this depend on the level of racism too?
    Or take them to the charity shop? Think about the implications ...
    Maybe the mildly racist ones can be donated to the BNP?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Well yes. We could make the same case for less emotive characteristics. Being a massive bellend, for example. Take Oasis - Oasis comes on the radio, but we know Liam Gallagher is a massive bellened. Early (good Oasis) - Columbia, say - "actually, despite Liam being a massive bellend, they were quite good, weren't they". Late (mediocre) oasis - All Around the World, say - "Jesus, Liam's a bellend, isn't he? Turn it over". Whereas an equally mediocre song by a less anoying artist (Feeder, say) - it gets left on. You can tolerate mediocrity when you're not being actively irritated by thinking about the artist.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited October 2023
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Surely you take the Dura Ace approach*:
    • if disliking the artist but liking the songs, you pirate them so you get to listen and stick it to the (wo)man
    • if liking the artist, but disliking the songs, you obviously buy the CDs to support him/her but stick them straight in the bin
    • if liking both artist and songs, you buy and keep
    • if disliking artist and songs (and 'green crap') you shoplift the CDs and stick them in the bin
    :wink:

    *although I think the DA approach is actually just to pirate it all...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Would the CD and record disposal take the form of quietly putting in the bin or a more ceremonial burning type event? And does this depend on the level of racism too?
    Or take them to the charity shop? Think about the implications ...
    Maybe the mildly racist ones can be donated to the BNP?
    There seems to be no suggestion that the actual tunes are racist, even mildly?
  • Selebian said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Surely you take the Dura Ace approach*:
    • if disliking the artist but liking the songs, you pirate them so you get to listen and stick it to the (wo)man
    • if liking the artist, but disliking the songs, you obviously buy the CDs to support him/her but stick them straight in the bin
    • if liking both artist and songs, you buy and keep
    • if disliking artist and songs you shoplift the CDs and stick them in the bin
    :wink:

    *although I think the DA approach is actually just to pirate it all...
    As long as you hit 160mph on the way to the record store I believe any of the options are considered acceptable.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Call it the Wagner Matrix.

    At what point does a person's opinions and/or actions affect perception of their art, and how much? Is the art itself an expression of their views; if so, how far? Was (is) their twattishness, or worse, personal misbehaviour or political, or both? To what extent was their behaviour in/appropriate for their time? How good is/was their art? And so on.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Would the CD and record disposal take the form of quietly putting in the bin or a more ceremonial burning type event? And does this depend on the level of racism too?
    Or take them to the charity shop? Think about the implications ...
    Maybe the mildly racist ones can be donated to the BNP?
    There seems to be no suggestion that the actual tunes are racist, even mildly?
    Can an actual tune be racist (as opposed to the lyrics?)

    I feel we're straying into the realm of illegal primes here!
  • Just listened to Sunak speaking in Israel. Again I am reminded how uncanny valley a lot of his presentation is. Superficially it is good. It’s got the Blair mannerisms and tics. He should be coming across as charismatic.

    But something just doesn’t click, and it makes him sound stilted and just ‘off’. I have been trying for some time to work out why this is but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. I think my only suggestion is that Blair and Cameron managed to do insincerity whilst appearing sincere, whereas Rishi just looks insincere.

    It's like he's learnt how to do it by reading an instruction manual and studiously practising, over and over again. It was similar to his time as Chancellor, where his budgets were like a pastiche of the Brown/Osborne budgets, but with no understanding of how to apply the general politics to the specifics of the situation he faced.
    I sense even if Rishi was a tiny bit authentic his statesman schtick wouldn’t be buttering a single shrivelled parsnip with the voting public.

    Tbf to him it might be the case that the discovery in retrospect that Blair & Cameron were fake as f. has ruined it for pretty straight kind of guy successors. BJ also wouldn’t have helped.


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    Alan Partridge is a nicer person than Steve Coogan.
    You're probably only saying that because Partridge is a Conservative. People tend to impute positive qualities to those who share their politics.
    Partridge is a cock. Coogan even more so.
    Fair enough. I sense this is your last word on the matter.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    On a related note, I recently read John Bolton's memoirs of his time in the White House, which I thought might be interesting as an insight and useful information to understand Trump - more the latter, as it turned out. I specifically asked for a second-hand copy of the book.

    The review's here, if anyone's interested -

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3T7CB0YOYSOXZ/ref=pe_1572281_66412651_cm_rv_eml_rv0_rv
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Call it the Wagner Matrix.

    At what point does a person's opinions and/or actions affect perception of their art, and how much? Is the art itself an expression of their views; if so, how far? Was (is) their twattishness, or worse, personal misbehaviour or political, or both? To what extent was their behaviour in/appropriate for their time? How good is/was their art? And so on.
    Same could be done with football. How views of the England team varied with time, school lunches, kneeling etc. etc. as modulated by goal-scoring.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Call it the Wagner Matrix.

    At what point does a person's opinions and/or actions affect perception of their art, and how much? Is the art itself an expression of their views; if so, how far? Was (is) their twattishness, or worse, personal misbehaviour or political, or both? To what extent was their behaviour in/appropriate for their time? How good is/was their art? And so on.
    Same could be done with football. How views of the England team varied with time, school lunches, kneeling etc. etc. as modulated by goal-scoring.
    I had a very surreal conversation with a colleague at start of lunch the day after England men's Euro final with Italy. I made some comment about the flack that the black players, particularly penalty missers, were getting and he commented that they hadn't been smart to draw attention to themselves with all the taking the knee business.

    I queried whether he thought people wouldn't have noticed they were black if they hadn't taken the knee, then other people turned up and the conversation moved on. He's known to have a very dry sense of humour, so I was never quite sure whether he was taking the piss or not!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Selebian said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Surely you take the Dura Ace approach*:
    • if disliking the artist but liking the songs, you pirate them so you get to listen and stick it to the (wo)man
    • if liking the artist, but disliking the songs, you obviously buy the CDs to support him/her but stick them straight in the bin
    • if liking both artist and songs, you buy and keep
    • if disliking artist and songs (and 'green crap') you shoplift the CDs and stick them in the bin
    :wink:

    *although I think the DA approach is actually just to pirate it all...
    That's tangential to my angle but, yes, I can see how that does the job.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited October 2023
    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    edited October 2023
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Call it the Wagner Matrix.

    At what point does a person's opinions and/or actions affect perception of their art, and how much? Is the art itself an expression of their views; if so, how far? Was (is) their twattishness, or worse, personal misbehaviour or political, or both? To what extent was their behaviour in/appropriate for their time? How good is/was their art? And so on.
    Same could be done with football. How views of the England team varied with time, school lunches, kneeling etc. etc. as modulated by goal-scoring.
    I'm not sure that's true. How much I like the England football team has very little to do with their ability to score goals and almost everything to do with how likeable I find them.
    e.g. Southgate-era woke virtue signallers: hard to like.
    Capello-era sullen and indifferent team: hard to like
    Sven-era hyperegos: hard to like

    Though as actual on-field success remains largely hypothetical this is a moot point.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
    I studied retro encabulation.
  • kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    Alan Partridge is a nicer person than Steve Coogan.
    You're probably only saying that because Partridge is a Conservative. People tend to impute positive qualities to those who share their politics.
    Partridge is a cock. Coogan even more so.
    Fair enough. I sense this is your last word on the matter.
    I sense it’s not.
    This kind of thing can be very triggering to certain folk.





  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    I'm not going to chuck my CD or DVD collection out just to keep you happy. Got them ages ago.

    But - my external CD drive has just died and I need a new one as Mrs C wants to view on her laptop. Anyone got any recommendations please? Needs to run films etc with the extras. USB.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Would the CD and record disposal take the form of quietly putting in the bin or a more ceremonial burning type event? And does this depend on the level of racism too?
    Or take them to the charity shop? Think about the implications ...
    Maybe the mildly racist ones can be donated to the BNP?
    There seems to be no suggestion that the actual tunes are racist, even mildly?
    Can an actual tune be racist (as opposed to the lyrics?)

    I feel we're straying into the realm of illegal primes here!
    Congratulations on getting that reference in, without Vanilla eating your post. I tried referencing the most famous such example once, and it disappeared a few minutes later!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Call it the Wagner Matrix.

    At what point does a person's opinions and/or actions affect perception of their art, and how much? Is the art itself an expression of their views; if so, how far? Was (is) their twattishness, or worse, personal misbehaviour or political, or both? To what extent was their behaviour in/appropriate for their time? How good is/was their art? And so on.
    Same could be done with football. How views of the England team varied with time, school lunches, kneeling etc. etc. as modulated by goal-scoring.
    I'm not sure that's true. How much I like the England football team has very little to do with their ability to score goals and almost everything to do with how likeable I find them.
    e.g. Southgate-era woke virtue signallers: hard to like.
    Capello-era sullen and indifferent team: hard to like
    Sven-era hyperegos: hard to like

    Though as actual on-field success remains largely hypothetical this is a moot point.
    There was plenty of comment on PB whenever the footie came on so surely there would be plenty of data. And my suggestion does allow for the confirmation of the null hypothesis - which would itself be remarkable.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Selebian said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Surely you take the Dura Ace approach*:
    • if disliking the artist but liking the songs, you pirate them so you get to listen and stick it to the (wo)man
    • if liking the artist, but disliking the songs, you obviously buy the CDs to support him/her but stick them straight in the bin
    • if liking both artist and songs, you buy and keep
    • if disliking artist and songs (and 'green crap') you shoplift the CDs and stick them in the bin
    :wink:

    *although I think the DA approach is actually just to pirate it all...
    I sometimes wonder about our friend.

    And where his tongue is in relation to his cheek!
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Just listened to Sunak speaking in Israel. Again I am reminded how uncanny valley a lot of his presentation is. Superficially it is good. It’s got the Blair mannerisms and tics. He should be coming across as charismatic.

    But something just doesn’t click, and it makes him sound stilted and just ‘off’. I have been trying for some time to work out why this is but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. I think my only suggestion is that Blair and Cameron managed to do insincerity whilst appearing sincere, whereas Rishi just looks insincere.

    I don't think it's quite that, though it's close. I'd say it's more that Blair and Cameron could do it entirely naturally and instinctively whereas Sunak is not a natural frontman and his presentation retains too many habits of a learned skill, one that he's not completely comfortable doing. That makes it appear too forced and hence, artificial - hence the perception of insincerity.
    Agree with both of these. I'd also note that Starmer is exactly the same. Even when I know he is sincere he sounds insincere.
    Both also have slightly nasal accents. I don't think it's impossible to sound sincere with a nasal accent but it is certainly more difficult!
    Are you implying Ken Livingstone is insincere ?
    Haha - no - it's not true that all nasal people sound insincere. But a nasal accent makes it harder!
    Sunak sounds most like EdM to me.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    So all those Gary Glitter LPs are young and trendy ? :smiley:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Selebian said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Surely you take the Dura Ace approach*:
    • if disliking the artist but liking the songs, you pirate them so you get to listen and stick it to the (wo)man
    • if liking the artist, but disliking the songs, you obviously buy the CDs to support him/her but stick them straight in the bin
    • if liking both artist and songs, you buy and keep
    • if disliking artist and songs you shoplift the CDs and stick them in the bin
    :wink:

    *although I think the DA approach is actually just to pirate it all...
    As long as you hit 160mph on the way to the record store I believe any of the options are considered acceptable.
    160? Are you suggesting driving with the handbrake on?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
    All those Greek mathematicians owning slaves doesn’t register? Why, you racist…I call for immediate cancellation of Carnyx on the grounds of insufficient Wokeness.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213

    I am sure @Foxy may be aware of this but following my wife's covid diagnosis this morning I reported it to my dedicated DVT nurse at the hospital who said it is more than possible that when I was under the weather last weekend, and stayed in bed, I actually had covid which apparently can affect the blood clotting and may have contributed to the DVT on the Monday

    I have taken the test which indicates I did have covid at the weekend

    Looks as if there is a lot to learn medically about the effects of covid

    I too would be interested in Foxy's view.

    From a position of ignorance, DVT can in very rare cases come from Covid or from the Covid vaccine * I think*.

    By the way, both I and Mrs Stocky have still never had Covid (which is becoming a rarity).
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    @david_herdson We were discussing your contention that terrorism can be easily defined. My apologies: I was busy and unable to continue the conversation at the time.

    You defined terrorism as violence seeking policy change. You then refined that to exclude states at war. OK. What about these other examples of violence to achieve policy change, which appear to fit your definition of terrorism.

    * 1916 Easter rising in Dublin (Irish Republican forces not representing an existing state)
    * Confederate forces at the Battle of Gettysburg (the Confederare States of America not widely recognised)
    * 1944 Warsaw uprising (not official state forces)
    * 1944 Slovak National Uprising (ditto)
    * French resistance action against Nazi occupation
    * 2014/5 Siege of Kobani (non-state forces on both sides: YPG vs IS)

    It seems to me there are many examples of somewhat irregular forces, not representing recognised states, engaging in violent action, but which look more like war than terrorism.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Would the CD and record disposal take the form of quietly putting in the bin or a more ceremonial burning type event? And does this depend on the level of racism too?
    It does depend - but what I will say is it would take a lot to make me do it in public. I'm not the demonstrative sort.

    And another point to stress, it wouldn't have to be racism. That's the most likely but there are other 'political' stances I find hard to tolerate. Eg anti vax activism. Also excessive pride in the flag.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    There’s a small, but real problem, with trying to get certain movies.

    Weinstein made a habit of buying the rights to various cult classics - steady sales in the long term.

    So you now can’t get Dogma (stream or DVD), because he owns the rights and no-one wants to be in business with Weinstein.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,073

    On a related note, I recently read John Bolton's memoirs of his time in the White House, which I thought might be interesting as an insight and useful information to understand Trump - more the latter, as it turned out. I specifically asked for a second-hand copy of the book.

    The review's here, if anyone's interested -

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3T7CB0YOYSOXZ/ref=pe_1572281_66412651_cm_rv_eml_rv0_rv

    An interesting and well written review, thank you.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited October 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
    All those Greek mathematicians owning slaves doesn’t register? Why, you racist…I call for immediate cancellation of Carnyx on the grounds of insufficient Wokeness.
    I did think about that but the maths didn't talk about the slaves per se. ...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Call it the Wagner Matrix.

    At what point does a person's opinions and/or actions affect perception of their art, and how much? Is the art itself an expression of their views; if so, how far? Was (is) their twattishness, or worse, personal misbehaviour or political, or both? To what extent was their behaviour in/appropriate for their time? How good is/was their art? And so on.
    This nails it and probably allows us to move on.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    edited October 2023
    LDs out to 7.4 in Mid Beds

    (I layed them at 1.45 close to when this market opened - quite a drift!)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    So all those Gary Glitter LPs are young and trendy ? :smiley:
    Good to be back.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Just listened to Sunak speaking in Israel. Again I am reminded how uncanny valley a lot of his presentation is. Superficially it is good. It’s got the Blair mannerisms and tics. He should be coming across as charismatic.

    But something just doesn’t click, and it makes him sound stilted and just ‘off’. I have been trying for some time to work out why this is but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. I think my only suggestion is that Blair and Cameron managed to do insincerity whilst appearing sincere, whereas Rishi just looks insincere.

    I don't think it's quite that, though it's close. I'd say it's more that Blair and Cameron could do it entirely naturally and instinctively whereas Sunak is not a natural frontman and his presentation retains too many habits of a learned skill, one that he's not completely comfortable doing. That makes it appear too forced and hence, artificial - hence the perception of insincerity.
    Agree with both of these. I'd also note that Starmer is exactly the same. Even when I know he is sincere he sounds insincere.
    Both also have slightly nasal accents. I don't think it's impossible to sound sincere with a nasal accent but it is certainly more difficult!
    Are you implying Ken Livingstone is insincere ?
    Haha - no - it's not true that all nasal people sound insincere. But a nasal accent makes it harder!
    Sunak sounds most like EdM to me.
    Surely not; he went to a public school. Not a state one, like EdM.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051

    I am sure @Foxy may be aware of this but following my wife's covid diagnosis this morning I reported it to my dedicated DVT nurse at the hospital who said it is more than possible that when I was under the weather last weekend, and stayed in bed, I actually had covid which apparently can affect the blood clotting and may have contributed to the DVT on the Monday

    I have taken the test which indicates I did have covid at the weekend

    Looks as if there is a lot to learn medically about the effects of covid

    I hope you both get better soon!
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    You've stripped my reply of nuance. I wish people wouldn't do this.

    Even if I'm a massive fan, there will still be a reaction from me if his views are sufficiently appalling. Eg I might stop searching out his tunes to listen to on my phone, but stop short of throwing the vinyl and CDs away.

    By contrast (and to get the nuance back in) assume the same about his views (absolutely appalling) but in this case I'm not a massive fan, I just quite like him.

    So now I think I *would* throw all his CDs and records away. Although I probably wouldn't have any given I'm not a fan of his.

    I hope this is clearer now?
    Would the CD and record disposal take the form of quietly putting in the bin or a more ceremonial burning type event? And does this depend on the level of racism too?
    It does depend - but what I will say is it would take a lot to make me do it in public. I'm not the demonstrative sort.

    And another point to stress, it wouldn't have to be racism. That's the most likely but there are other 'political' stances I find hard to tolerate. Eg anti vax activism. Also excessive pride in the flag.
    Yeah, but to be fair thats because you have become a woke lefty who can't even remember what you really thought before the vaccine reprogrammed all your thoughts and memory.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Call it the Wagner Matrix.

    At what point does a person's opinions and/or actions affect perception of their art, and how much? Is the art itself an expression of their views; if so, how far? Was (is) their twattishness, or worse, personal misbehaviour or political, or both? To what extent was their behaviour in/appropriate for their time? How good is/was their art? And so on.
    This nails it and probably allows us to move on.
    Have you ever personally cancelled, via jettisoning their CDs, any artist.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited October 2023
    CDs are actually very good for chickens. If you hang them (the CDs) up the chickens like the diversion.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    TOPPING said:

    CDs are actually very good for chickens. If you hang them (the CDs) up the chickens like the diversion.

    They don't shun Clapton then?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    There’s a small, but real problem, with trying to get certain movies.

    Weinstein made a habit of buying the rights to various cult classics - steady sales in the long term.

    So you now can’t get Dogma (stream or DVD), because he owns the rights and no-one wants to be in business with Weinstein.
    True. Truly Madly Deeply was also a problem for years - very annoying as mother-in-law really wanted one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
    All those Greek mathematicians owning slaves doesn’t register? Why, you racist…I call for immediate cancellation of Carnyx on the grounds of insufficient Wokeness.
    I did think about that but the maths didn't talk about the slaves per se. ...
    I’m afraid your defence doesn’t add up. In fact it multiplies the offence by admitting you unpersoned the slaves through not mentioning them.

    You will have to listen to a Laura Pidcock speech on a loop for 37 minutes to top up your levels of social understanding.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
    All those Greek mathematicians owning slaves doesn’t register? Why, you racist…I call for immediate cancellation of Carnyx on the grounds of insufficient Wokeness.
    I did think about that but the maths didn't talk about the slaves per se. ...
    But the support of the efforts of the slaves made the leisure time to develop the mathematics possible. So racism is inherent in trigonometry
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Well yes. We could make the same case for less emotive characteristics. Being a massive bellend, for example. Take Oasis - Oasis comes on the radio, but we know Liam Gallagher is a massive bellened. Early (good Oasis) - Columbia, say - "actually, despite Liam being a massive bellend, they were quite good, weren't they". Late (mediocre) oasis - All Around the World, say - "Jesus, Liam's a bellend, isn't he? Turn it over". Whereas an equally mediocre song by a less anoying artist (Feeder, say) - it gets left on. You can tolerate mediocrity when you're not being actively irritated by thinking about the artist.
    Hard disagree. Mediocrity is inherently irritating in itself. Feeder are getting switched off*. And point of order that Noel is also a massive bellend (though agree that Def Maybe is a classic).


    *on the CD player player player player player [etc. ad nauseam]
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    edited October 2023

    On a related note, I recently read John Bolton's memoirs of his time in the White House, which I thought might be interesting as an insight and useful information to understand Trump - more the latter, as it turned out. I specifically asked for a second-hand copy of the book.

    The review's here, if anyone's interested -

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3T7CB0YOYSOXZ/ref=pe_1572281_66412651_cm_rv_eml_rv0_rv

    Good job it wasn't a painting.

    If you buy a Hunter Biden secondhand in the UK, I think he gets 4% of the secondhand sale price by default as some sort of legalised tax scam.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    There’s a small, but real problem, with trying to get certain movies.

    Weinstein made a habit of buying the rights to various cult classics - steady sales in the long term.

    So you now can’t get Dogma (stream or DVD), because he owns the rights and no-one wants to be in business with Weinstein.
    I believe it is on Youtube however.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    While not being old enough I could probably blag a Covid booster due to elderly parents, one in a care home, but should I? Not sure. Big G reports having caught Covid two weeks after booster jab. Is it worth it?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited October 2023

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
    All those Greek mathematicians owning slaves doesn’t register? Why, you racist…I call for immediate cancellation of Carnyx on the grounds of insufficient Wokeness.
    I did think about that but the maths didn't talk about the slaves per se. ...
    But the support of the efforts of the slaves made the leisure time to develop the mathematics possible. So racism is inherent in trigonometry
    And the women hidden in the gynaikion, too.

    Not quite sure about racism, though. Plenty of slaves were fellow Hellenes, rather than barbarians. Now if you said townist, that might be right.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
    All those Greek mathematicians owning slaves doesn’t register? Why, you racist…I call for immediate cancellation of Carnyx on the grounds of insufficient Wokeness.
    I did think about that but the maths didn't talk about the slaves per se. ...
    But the support of the efforts of the slaves made the leisure time to develop the mathematics possible. So racism is inherent in trigonometry
    Their most important contribution was the cooking. But they’ve been airbrushed so much that nobody ever thinks slaves made all the pis.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,073
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    There’s a small, but real problem, with trying to get certain movies.

    Weinstein made a habit of buying the rights to various cult classics - steady sales in the long term.

    So you now can’t get Dogma (stream or DVD), because he owns the rights and no-one wants to be in business with Weinstein.
    True. Truly Madly Deeply was also a problem for years - very annoying as mother-in-law really wanted one.
    This is why physical media is making a comeback. Some films and tv series are now no longer available, whether thru BBC stupidity, disputes about rights, or even just petulance. If you rent it online, you don't own it, and if you don't own it it can be taken from you.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
    All those Greek mathematicians owning slaves doesn’t register? Why, you racist…I call for immediate cancellation of Carnyx on the grounds of insufficient Wokeness.
    I did think about that but the maths didn't talk about the slaves per se. ...
    But the support of the efforts of the slaves made the leisure time to develop the mathematics possible. So racism is inherent in trigonometry
    Their most important contribution was the cooking. But they’ve been airbrushed so much that nobody ever thinks slaves made all the pis.
    https://www.mygreekdish.com/recipe/greek-peas-and-potato-stew-with-tomatoes-recipe-arakas-laderos-kokkinistos/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    I Know Where I'm Going! is back in the cinemas this weekend.
    Great film.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Stocky said:

    While not being old enough I could probably blag a Covid booster due to elderly parents, one in a care home, but should I? Not sure. Big G reports having caught Covid two weeks after booster jab. Is it worth it?

    Its possible that his fairly mild response to covid (some time in bed, but he has seen more summers than most) is because he had the booster. Could have been a lot worse. Also the booster takes some time for full effect (not sure but about three weeks rings a bell).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited October 2023
    viewcode said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    There’s a small, but real problem, with trying to get certain movies.

    Weinstein made a habit of buying the rights to various cult classics - steady sales in the long term.

    So you now can’t get Dogma (stream or DVD), because he owns the rights and no-one wants to be in business with Weinstein.
    True. Truly Madly Deeply was also a problem for years - very annoying as mother-in-law really wanted one.
    This is why physical media is making a comeback. Some films and tv series are now no longer available, whether thru BBC stupidity, disputes about rights, or even just petulance. If you rent it online, you don't own it, and if you don't own it it can be taken from you.
    And if I didn't have CDs and fell off my perch Mrs C would instantly find a lot of our film collection had vanished. OK, so she's not so worried about the Battle of Britain, or the samurais, but she would miss a lot.

    Edit: sorry, talking about the kind of digital purchase which you never really own and can't leave to your heirs. Digital books too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    You could, given sufficient time and motivation. But anyway, last roll, there's not just nuance there's nuance *within* the nuance.

    Take Clapton. Eric. 'God'. But a bad apple on the 'muliticulturalism doesn't work' front (to put it mildly).

    So, a person (such as me) might now still cue up Layla during an evening of drinking and listening to classic riffs, BUT whereas before knowing he was a bad apple they might really 'get into' it, be up and about the lounge playing air guitar, making iconic lip shapes, kind of *celebrating* the riff, now they'll still listen but do it in a sober thoughtful stationary manner, conscious of the issues in play, the trade offs being made.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    MattW said:

    On a related note, I recently read John Bolton's memoirs of his time in the White House, which I thought might be interesting as an insight and useful information to understand Trump - more the latter, as it turned out. I specifically asked for a second-hand copy of the book.

    The review's here, if anyone's interested -

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3T7CB0YOYSOXZ/ref=pe_1572281_66412651_cm_rv_eml_rv0_rv

    Good job it wasn't a painting.

    If you buy a Hunter Biden secondhand in the UK, I think he gets 4% of the secondhand sale price by default as some sort of legalised tax scam.
    I would image the market for Hunter Bidens is even more limited than that for his pictures.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    CDs made up 7% of music revenue last year in the UK. 11.5m sold in 2022 apparently.

    Still declining obvs, but it's not nowt.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    The Met Office red warning has been extended to Dundee, Perth & Kinross. Stay safe @DavidL, and anyone else in the affected areas.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited October 2023
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    You could, given sufficient time and motivation. But anyway, last roll, there's not just nuance there's nuance *within* the nuance.

    Take Clapton. Eric. 'God'. But a bad apple on the 'muliticulturalism doesn't work' front (to put it mildly).

    So, a person (such as me) might now still cue up Layla during an evening of drinking and listening to classic riffs, BUT whereas before knowing he was a bad apple they might really 'get into' it, be up and about the lounge playing air guitar, making iconic lip shapes, kind of *celebrating* the riff, now they'll still listen but do it in a sober thoughtful stationary manner, conscious of the issues in play, the trade offs being made.
    Have you cancelled anyone?
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    You could, given sufficient time and motivation. But anyway, last roll, there's not just nuance there's nuance *within* the nuance.

    Take Clapton. Eric. 'God'. But a bad apple on the 'muliticulturalism doesn't work' front (to put it mildly).

    So, a person (such as me) might now still cue up Layla during an evening of drinking and listening to classic riffs, BUT whereas before knowing he was a bad apple they might really 'get into' it, be up and about the lounge playing air guitar, making iconic lip shapes, kind of *celebrating* the riff, now they'll still listen but do it in a sober thoughtful stationary manner, conscious of the issues in play, the trade offs being made.
    the riff in Layla was, of course, Duane Allman's work rather than Clapton's.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Nigelb said:

    I Know Where I'm Going! is back in the cinemas this weekend.
    Great film.

    It is a real shame that practically uniquely among Powell and Pressburger’s post 1942 work it wasn’t filmed in colour (that and A Canterbury Tale). I think it’s because all the colour cameras were in use for Henry V at the time of shooting.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    Do they buy their CD's with cash ?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    edited October 2023
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    You could, given sufficient time and motivation. But anyway, last roll, there's not just nuance there's nuance *within* the nuance.

    Take Clapton. Eric. 'God'. But a bad apple on the 'muliticulturalism doesn't work' front (to put it mildly).

    So, a person (such as me) might now still cue up Layla during an evening of drinking and listening to classic riffs, BUT whereas before knowing he was a bad apple they might really 'get into' it, be up and about the lounge playing air guitar, making iconic lip shapes, kind of *celebrating* the riff, now they'll still listen but do it in a sober thoughtful stationary manner, conscious of the issues in play, the trade offs being made.
    Have you cancelled anyone?
    @TOPPING I'm hesitant about the booster because of SIRVA.

    I had shoulder problems a few days after my booster jab last October and the pain has eased somewhat but my shoulder is still not right a year later. Odds are it's nowt to do with the booster jab but I can't help wondering.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    You could, given sufficient time and motivation. But anyway, last roll, there's not just nuance there's nuance *within* the nuance.

    Take Clapton. Eric. 'God'. But a bad apple on the 'muliticulturalism doesn't work' front (to put it mildly).

    So, a person (such as me) might now still cue up Layla during an evening of drinking and listening to classic riffs, BUT whereas before knowing he was a bad apple they might really 'get into' it, be up and about the lounge playing air guitar, making iconic lip shapes, kind of *celebrating* the riff, now they'll still listen but do it in a sober thoughtful stationary manner, conscious of the issues in play, the trade offs being made.
    Does Clapton still have those views ? He made a few comments in the seventies. Since then has he stuck to that ?

    As for his work The musical Coda on Layla is amazing. Layla is my most played spotify track over the last 5 years. I never tire of the musical Coda.

    Hotel California is also pretty decent
  • Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    I would add a third criterion: how long have you liked the music for. If I'd been a fan of someone since my teens and then discovered they held some views a distance from mine, I'd be more likely to give them some leeway than if they'd just appeared on the scene. At some point, the music will have become 'mine' - my life's soundtrack - rather than purely theirs.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    edited October 2023
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    Thank you. Topping is trying to cause trouble but he's picked the wrong morning to do it. I'm bright as a button today.
    We're interested in your racism scale. Tell us more. With worked examples if you have any. For example, have you stopped listening to any artist on account of their views.
    Topping, what did you read at university, if any, might I ask? Maybe if you have a degree in Classics you ought to send it back, all that slavery and worse. Mathematics, not so much. English is the tricky one.
    And, yet, you haven't even mentioned the slave-owning philosophers! I'm literally, literally, shaking with anger at your ignorance. This could damage peoples' mental health. Educate yourself!
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Stocky said:

    LDs out to 7.4 in Mid Beds

    (I layed them at 1.45 close to when this market opened - quite a drift!)

    Not Winning Here.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    He's a very reasonable guy. Just a little bit racist, great songs: all good; huge racist, great songs: stop listening.

    There is probably a matrix that we could draw up to determine the likelihood of him tolerating the artist.
    Call it the Wagner Matrix.

    At what point does a person's opinions and/or actions affect perception of their art, and how much? Is the art itself an expression of their views; if so, how far? Was (is) their twattishness, or worse, personal misbehaviour or political, or both? To what extent was their behaviour in/appropriate for their time? How good is/was their art? And so on.
    Same could be done with football. How views of the England team varied with time, school lunches, kneeling etc. etc. as modulated by goal-scoring.
    I'm not sure that's true. How much I like the England football team has very little to do with their ability to score goals and almost everything to do with how likeable I find them.
    e.g. Southgate-era woke virtue signallers: hard to like.
    Capello-era sullen and indifferent team: hard to like
    Sven-era hyperegos: hard to like

    Though as actual on-field success remains largely hypothetical this is a moot point.
    There was plenty of comment on PB whenever the footie came on so surely there would be plenty of data. And my suggestion does allow for the confirmation of the null hypothesis - which would itself be remarkable.
    You're probably right, scaled up from the specific (me) to the general.
    Though it's probably more complex than that - it's not lots of individuals changing their minds - the curmudgeons like me probably keep up a constant volume while the enthusiasts get louder or quieter depending on the success of the team. So while the impression is inconsistency, that's not necessarily wholly true.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    viewcode said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    And what's all this talk of "CDs" ffs. People buy vinyl or stream their music these days.

    PB showing its old (if I may be so presumptuous, white) bloke vibe again.

    There’s a small, but real problem, with trying to get certain movies.

    Weinstein made a habit of buying the rights to various cult classics - steady sales in the long term.

    So you now can’t get Dogma (stream or DVD), because he owns the rights and no-one wants to be in business with Weinstein.
    True. Truly Madly Deeply was also a problem for years - very annoying as mother-in-law really wanted one.
    This is why physical media is making a comeback. Some films and tv series are now no longer available, whether thru BBC stupidity, disputes about rights, or even just petulance. If you rent it online, you don't own it, and if you don't own it it can be taken from you.
    Charity shops are good for both CDs and DVDs, though a bit more random than looking for any specific film.

    JustWatch is quite good for tracking down who is streaming specific films.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    An open letter signed by well-known actors condemning Israeli military actions has been criticised for failing to mention brutal terror attacks carried out by Hamas.

    More than 2,000 artists, actors and musicians in the UK, including Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Charles Dance and Maxine Peake, signed the letter.

    They called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for “our governments to end their military and political support for Israel’s actions”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/18/coogan-swinton-letter-condemns-israel-war-crimes-not-hamas/

    That would be the same Maxine Peake who contrived to show how Israel was responsible for the death of George Floyd?
    This sounds so insane I had to Google it.

    Bloody hell

    https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/maxine-peake-responds-to-row-over-claim-linking-george-floyd-death-to-israel/
    This is why I have a strict "don't ask" policy when it comes to artists and their personal views. Peake is a brilliant actor. She's a mentalist politically, but I don't care what her views are so I can keep watching her stuff.
    I feel the same way about Eddie Izzard - one of the finest and most original of comedians of our age even though I disagree entirely with just about evrything in his politics.

    The same goes for the Anti-vaxxer Clapton. I don't think his music is any less superb because he is a lunatic.
    Up to a point. I don't really mind if my favourite famous people have political views that are different to mine. But when I start to get the impression that they would mind very much if I had political opinions different to theirs - which is the impression you get from the likes of Steve Coogan and Maxine Peake - the cheerful indifference gets harder to maintain. I mean, Alan Partidge is no less funny for its creator being a bit of a twat. But it's hard to maintain a neutral opinion of the fella.
    This is in practice a bigger issue for right wingers like you because famous entertainers, actors, song and dance merchants, writers, artistic and cultural big bananas in general, skew left. If you were to 'cancel' them on that basis you'd be left with meagre rations indeed. So although I agree and applaud your tolerant take on it (and I do agree and applaud it) I also have to note this self-interest angle.
    That's true. But there's left wingers and left wingers. I've just finished Dave Grohl's autobiography. He makes no secret of his strongly felt Democrat leanings. But he also discusses the more important need to be able to get on with people whatever their views, and laments that America is currently unable to do this. I'd say that's the more important factor.
    Yep, and to widen it a bit, there's political views and there's political views.

    Eg, hypothetically imagine a denizen of rock who's very strongly of the opinion that we're well beyond what the modern state ought to be raising in tax and so favours significant cuts in public expenditure - except for the armed forces because defence of the realm must be the government's top priority.

    I'm just giving that a roll of the eyes and it's not impacting one iota on my enjoyment of his tunes (assuming I like them to start with).

    However if his right wingery extends to 'Enoch was a god' territory, if he's giving it the old 'multiculturalism doesn't work' cypher for being a racist, then that's materially different. That's more troubling. I have a decision to make there.
    And in precisely that situation, what would your decision be.
    It depends on the relative weight of the 2 things: (i) how much I like his tunes and (ii) just how ghastly are his views.

    The bigger that (ii) is relative to (i) the more likely I am to remove him from my life.
    In other words if you were a big enough fan you would ignore his Enoch views. Interesting, thanks.
    @kinabalu 's approach seems entirely reasonable to me.
    I would add a third criterion: how long have you liked the music for. If I'd been a fan of someone since my teens and then discovered they held some views a distance from mine, I'd be more likely to give them some leeway than if they'd just appeared on the scene. At some point, the music will have become 'mine' - my life's soundtrack - rather than purely theirs.
    How do you think fans of LostProphets feel ?

    Having a few views someone considers iffy is one thing, however....

    I still listen to some Gary Glitter tracks. Rock N Roll part 2 is a belter.
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