It is interesting there is no film of the destroyed hospital this morning, the BBC reporting last night that there was a huge rescue attempt going to pull people from the rubble of the hospital, yet this morning video shows the hospital is still standing and the only damage is in the car park. Maybe the BBC should mention this.
Our team at BBC Verify is investigating the explosion at the Al Ahli Arab hospital, which health officials in Gaza say killed hundreds of people.
Palestinian officials say it was caused by an Israeli air strike; the Israelis say it was caused by a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We’ve been showing videos from last night and images of the aftermath taken this morning to weapons experts to try to verify what happened.
While there is no overall consensus, one said the fact that hospital buildings have not collapsed, some cars are undamaged and there is no visible deep crater suggests that this was not consistent with an Israeli air strike.
We have also showed a video with the apparent sound of the impact to these experts - one said he couldn’t tell whether this was an Israeli strike or a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We're continuing to look into this and will bring you more when we get it.
It is interesting there is no film of the destroyed hospital this morning, the BBC reporting last night that there was a huge rescue attempt going to pull people from the rubble of the hospital, yet this morning video shows the hospital is still standing and the only damage is in the car park. Maybe the BBC should mention this.
Our team at BBC Verify is investigating the explosion at the Al Ahli Arab hospital, which health officials in Gaza say killed hundreds of people.
Palestinian officials say it was caused by an Israeli air strike; the Israelis say it was caused by a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We’ve been showing videos from last night and images of the aftermath taken this morning to weapons experts to try to verify what happened.
While there is no overall consensus, one said the fact that hospital buildings have not collapsed, some cars are undamaged and there is no visible deep crater suggests that this was not consistent with an Israeli air strike.
We have also showed a video with the apparent sound of the impact to these experts - one said he couldn’t tell whether this was an Israeli strike or a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We're continuing to look into this and will bring you more when we get it.
It is interesting there is no film of the destroyed hospital this morning, the BBC reporting last night that there was a huge rescue attempt going to pull people from the rubble of the hospital, yet this morning video shows the hospital is still standing and the only damage is in the car park. Maybe the BBC should mention this.
Our team at BBC Verify is investigating the explosion at the Al Ahli Arab hospital, which health officials in Gaza say killed hundreds of people.
Palestinian officials say it was caused by an Israeli air strike; the Israelis say it was caused by a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We’ve been showing videos from last night and images of the aftermath taken this morning to weapons experts to try to verify what happened.
While there is no overall consensus, one said the fact that hospital buildings have not collapsed, some cars are undamaged and there is no visible deep crater suggests that this was not consistent with an Israeli air strike.
We have also showed a video with the apparent sound of the impact to these experts - one said he couldn’t tell whether this was an Israeli strike or a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We're continuing to look into this and will bring you more when we get it.
Last night they reported that the hospital buildings had collapsed, people were trapped in the rubble of the hospital, an operating theatre was destoyed mid operation, Doctors were operatiing on people on the street beacuse the hospital was destoyed, yet none of this happened. Perhaps they should mention that.
Mark Urban @MarkUrban01 · 1h Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast: - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden - Jordan then cancels the summit - violence across the West Bank - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday, That’s the crisis President Biden flies into
I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too
Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
On what basis apart from your inherent prejudice are you saying 80% Israeli?
And the world will not blame Israel if they have evidence it wasn’t them. But you will
As you want to make it persional I'll answer you. I have a foot in both camps. I'm Jewish and many of my family -children of my sister -live in Israel. I also have worked in the Middle East dozens of times so have many good friends living there who I am in regular contact with.
What few on here seem to understand is that Arabs have the same sensitivities as the Israelis. They treat life as being just as precious. I've been to several Arab weddings and the only place I've seen families as warm and as close is at Jewish ones
They are not zombies or cannon fodder as some on here seem to think. Your average citizen in Beirut has much more political knowledge and intelligence than their British equivalent. They're very old civilisations and their reasoning and wisdom is a revelation every time I go. They're also among my favourite people and I've probably worked in more countries than Leon!
1) Various people desperate for it to have been done by the other side. To fit their agenda. 2) The usual poster or 2 upset that people have opinions, theories. Instead of listening to the BBC World Service with a complete attention, while standing to attention…. #ToyJournalists, perhaps? 3) Sone people being moral and rational.
I have an agenda as well, so it was obviously the Woke Trans Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs. But it wasn't their fault. They were provoked.
The previous night we ate at a Sardinian restaurant - http://sannas1.co.uk/ - and it too was delicious and the staff wonderfully friendly.
I am now stuffed after a cooked breakfast and will have to embark on some serious dieting/exercising when I get home later today. But first Tullie House then St Mary's Church Wreay - https://www.stmaryswreay.org/.
Well worth a visit to Carlisle for those who have not been.
And the best way to reach Carlisle is by train over the Settle & Carlisle line!
It is interesting there is no film of the destroyed hospital this morning, the BBC reporting last night that there was a huge rescue attempt going to pull people from the rubble of the hospital, yet this morning video shows the hospital is still standing and the only damage is in the car park. Maybe the BBC should mention this.
Our team at BBC Verify is investigating the explosion at the Al Ahli Arab hospital, which health officials in Gaza say killed hundreds of people.
Palestinian officials say it was caused by an Israeli air strike; the Israelis say it was caused by a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We’ve been showing videos from last night and images of the aftermath taken this morning to weapons experts to try to verify what happened.
While there is no overall consensus, one said the fact that hospital buildings have not collapsed, some cars are undamaged and there is no visible deep crater suggests that this was not consistent with an Israeli air strike.
We have also showed a video with the apparent sound of the impact to these experts - one said he couldn’t tell whether this was an Israeli strike or a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We're continuing to look into this and will bring you more when we get it.
Last night they reported that the hospital buildings had collapsed, people were trapped in the rubble of the hospital, an operating theatre was destoyed mid operation, Doctors were operatiing on people on the street beacuse the hospital was destoyed, yet none of this happened. Perhaps they should mention that.
I'd no sooner trust the BBC or BBCVerify (pompous pricks) than I'd trust Al Jazeera.
No. I disagree. Whoever he is was reporting what we knew at the time. Seems quite measured to me.
"What we knew at the time"? All we knew is what Hamas were saying.
Well that and the videos of course. And the fact that the Israelis didn't immediately deny it.
"And the fact that the Israelis didn't immediately deny it." They said they were looking into it. Is non-denial some kind of evidence that they did it?
Not at all. I did think it was odd though.
Actually, that lends credibility to the IDF. They wanted to find out if one of their people *was* responsible.
It is interesting there is no film of the destroyed hospital this morning, the BBC reporting last night that there was a huge rescue attempt going to pull people from the rubble of the hospital, yet this morning video shows the hospital is still standing and the only damage is in the car park. Maybe the BBC should mention this.
Our team at BBC Verify is investigating the explosion at the Al Ahli Arab hospital, which health officials in Gaza say killed hundreds of people.
Palestinian officials say it was caused by an Israeli air strike; the Israelis say it was caused by a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We’ve been showing videos from last night and images of the aftermath taken this morning to weapons experts to try to verify what happened.
While there is no overall consensus, one said the fact that hospital buildings have not collapsed, some cars are undamaged and there is no visible deep crater suggests that this was not consistent with an Israeli air strike.
We have also showed a video with the apparent sound of the impact to these experts - one said he couldn’t tell whether this was an Israeli strike or a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We're continuing to look into this and will bring you more when we get it.
I think the problem is they shouldn't have come up with anything last night other than the bare facts. If there's any lessons to be drawn from this, it's "shut the fuck up until you know the facts viewcode" . I've been trying to observe a self-denying ordinance on this (hence my focus on geopolitical stuff) but even so I'm beginning to think I should just stop talking about it period and go backstage. I'm not paid to comment here and jumping to conclusions just makes me look stupid. Yes I know I am stupid, but I'd rather people found out about it later rather than sooner...
Mark Urban @MarkUrban01 · 1h Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast: - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden - Jordan then cancels the summit - violence across the West Bank - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday, That’s the crisis President Biden flies into
I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too
Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
On what basis apart from your inherent prejudice are you saying 80% Israeli?
And the world will not blame Israel if they have evidence it wasn’t them. But you will
As you want to make it persional I'll answer you. I have a foot in both camps. I'm Jewish and many of my family -children of my sister -live in Israel. I also have worked in the Middle East dozens of times so have many good friends living there who I am in regular contact with.
What few on here seem to understand is that Arabs have the same sensitivities hopes as the Israelis. They treat life as being just as precious. I've been to several Arab weddings and the only place I've seen families as warm and as close is at Jewish ones
They are not zombies or cannon fodder as some on here seem to think. Your average citizen in Beirut has much more political knowledge and intelligence than their British equivalent. They're a very old civilisations and their reasoning and wisdom is a revelastion every time I go. They're also among my favourite people and I've probably worked in more countries than Leon!
Yes, the average Israeli and Arab citizens may well have the same sensitivities. But the people launching the rockets are *not* average Arab citizens. They are terrorists. And terrorists throughout time have shown that they care f-all about the life of others; even of people like them if they believe the deaths will take the *cause* forward.
Then there's the rather large chance that this was an accident. It has been reported that lots of the rockets fired from Gaza fail and fall on Gaza itself.
Public sector workers also have a pension that’s now pretty much impossible to get in the private sector.
I keep forgetting wealthy people think all public sector employees have gold-plated defined benefit pensions. They haven't been available to new joiners since Blair was Prime Minister
The current doctors’ pension arrangements lead to new joiners retiring with a pension income of roughly £68k per year if retiring at 68, index-linked, which would cost around £2m in the private sector.
I can see why they have gone on strike, 68k a year pension is simply not enough.
Not saying the NHS pension isn’t good, but unsurprisingly that briefing is not the whole story. It’s now career average based on 60ths, from memory. Worth about 25-30% on top of salary off the top of my head.
It is interesting there is no film of the destroyed hospital this morning, the BBC reporting last night that there was a huge rescue attempt going to pull people from the rubble of the hospital, yet this morning video shows the hospital is still standing and the only damage is in the car park. Maybe the BBC should mention this.
Our team at BBC Verify is investigating the explosion at the Al Ahli Arab hospital, which health officials in Gaza say killed hundreds of people.
Palestinian officials say it was caused by an Israeli air strike; the Israelis say it was caused by a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We’ve been showing videos from last night and images of the aftermath taken this morning to weapons experts to try to verify what happened.
While there is no overall consensus, one said the fact that hospital buildings have not collapsed, some cars are undamaged and there is no visible deep crater suggests that this was not consistent with an Israeli air strike.
We have also showed a video with the apparent sound of the impact to these experts - one said he couldn’t tell whether this was an Israeli strike or a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We're continuing to look into this and will bring you more when we get it.
I think the problem is they shouldn't have come up with anything last night other than the bare facts. If there's any lessons to be drawn from this, it's "shut the fuck up until you know the facts viewcode" . I've been trying to observe a self-denying ordinance on this (hence my focus on geopolitical stuff) but even so I'm beginning to think I should just stop talking about it period and go backstage. I'm not paid to comment here and jumping to conclusions just makes me look stupid. Yes I know I am stupid, but I'd rather people found out about it later rather than sooner...
Yes I agree with your first sentence. “This has happened, we need to understand the facts before we can say for certain what caused this.” would have been the correct way to go.
It is interesting there is no film of the destroyed hospital this morning, the BBC reporting last night that there was a huge rescue attempt going to pull people from the rubble of the hospital, yet this morning video shows the hospital is still standing and the only damage is in the car park. Maybe the BBC should mention this.
Our team at BBC Verify is investigating the explosion at the Al Ahli Arab hospital, which health officials in Gaza say killed hundreds of people.
Palestinian officials say it was caused by an Israeli air strike; the Israelis say it was caused by a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We’ve been showing videos from last night and images of the aftermath taken this morning to weapons experts to try to verify what happened.
While there is no overall consensus, one said the fact that hospital buildings have not collapsed, some cars are undamaged and there is no visible deep crater suggests that this was not consistent with an Israeli air strike.
We have also showed a video with the apparent sound of the impact to these experts - one said he couldn’t tell whether this was an Israeli strike or a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We're continuing to look into this and will bring you more when we get it.
I think the problem is they shouldn't have come up with anything last night other than the bare facts. If there's any lessons to be drawn from this, it's "shut the fuck up until you know the facts viewcode" . I've been trying to observe a self-denying ordinance on this (hence my focus on geopolitical stuff) but even so I'm beginning to think I should just stop talking about it period and go backstage. I'm not paid to comment here and jumping to conclusions just makes me look stupid. Yes I know I am stupid, but I'd rather people found out about it later rather than sooner...
You don't appear stupid. Coming to the wrong conclusion is not stupid, as long as you base any conclusions you come up with on what you know at the time. But I think we all (including myself) could place less certainty on our pronouncements, especially in rapidly-moving stories.
Mark Urban @MarkUrban01 · 1h Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast: - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden - Jordan then cancels the summit - violence across the West Bank - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday, That’s the crisis President Biden flies into
I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too
Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
On what basis apart from your inherent prejudice are you saying 80% Israeli?
And the world will not blame Israel if they have evidence it wasn’t them. But you will
As you want to make it persional I'll answer you. I have a foot in both camps. I'm Jewish and many of my family -children of my sister -live in Israel. I also have worked in the Middle East dozens of times so have many good friends living there who I am in regular contact with.
What few on here seem to understand is that Arabs have the same sensitivities hopes as the Israelis. They treat life as being just as precious. I've been to several Arab weddings and the only place I've seen families as warm and as close is at Jewish ones
They are not zombies or cannon fodder as some on here seem to think. Your average citizen in Beirut has much more political knowledge and intelligence than their British equivalent. They're a very old civilisations and their reasoning and wisdom is a revelastion every time I go. They're also among my favourite people and I've probably worked in more countries than Leon!
Yes, the average Israeli and Arab citizens may well have the same sensitivities. But the people launching the rockets are *not* average Arab citizens. They are terrorists. And terrorists throughout time have shown that they care f-all about the life of others; even of people like them if they believe the deaths will take the *cause* forward.
Then there's the rather large chance that this was an accident. It has been reported that lots of the rockets fired from Gaza fail and fall on Gaza itself.
Likewise we should make a distinction between the Israeli *people*, and Netanyahu and his minions.
So what has actually happened at this hospital? Blown up by the Israelis but no bomb crater. Blown up by an Islamic Jihad misfire but just a few burnt out cars in the car park. 500 dead, no 300 dead, no "casualties rising".
We have video both of IJ firing rockets and one dipping off path and breaking apart. Broadcast live on Al Jazeera. We have Wild Claims of an Israeli massacre and collapsing buildings - but the buildings are intact. And the morning after images show a load of burnt out cars (and not an EV in sight...) and minimal damage.
So - IJ rocket misfires and breaks up in mid air. Flaming debris is seen falling. And we have an obvious large fire in a car park next to the hospital. So....
Mark Urban @MarkUrban01 · 1h Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast: - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden - Jordan then cancels the summit - violence across the West Bank - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday, That’s the crisis President Biden flies into
I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too
Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
On what basis apart from your inherent prejudice are you saying 80% Israeli?
And the world will not blame Israel if they have evidence it wasn’t them. But you will
As you want to make it persional I'll answer you. I have a foot in both camps. I'm Jewish and many of my family -children of my sister -live in Israel. I also have worked in the Middle East dozens of times so have many good friends living there who I am in regular contact with.
What few on here seem to understand is that Arabs have the same sensitivities hopes as the Israelis. They treat life as being just as precious. I've been to several Arab weddings and the only place I've seen families as warm and as close is at Jewish ones
They are not zombies or cannon fodder as some on here seem to think. Your average citizen in Beirut has much more political knowledge and intelligence than their British equivalent. They're a very old civilisations and their reasoning and wisdom is a revelastion every time I go. They're also among my favourite people and I've probably worked in more countries than Leon!
Yes, the average Israeli and Arab citizens may well have the same sensitivities. But the people launching the rockets are *not* average Arab citizens. They are terrorists. And terrorists throughout time have shown that they care f-all about the life of others; even of people like them if they believe the deaths will take the *cause* forward.
Then there's the rather large chance that this was an accident. It has been reported that lots of the rockets fired from Gaza fail and fall on Gaza itself.
Likewise we should make a distinction between the Israeli *people*, and Netanyahu and his minions.
Some of the more fervent pro-Palestinian people claim it is more complex than that. As Israel has national service, most of the Israeli population can be seen to be 'minions'. Especially those who are still available for reserve call-up.
This argument gets perilously close to "There are no innocent Jews" for my liking.
On topic, it's been going on 75 years. It doesn't end until both sides can live peacefully together or until one wipes the other out. All else is temporary ceasefire.
With growing extremism around the world, the chances of a permanent solution in the next few decades are low.
The root facts are these:
- Israel exists as an existential backstop for the Jewish people. - Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against pretty much continually since they were scattered from their homeland almost 2000 years ago; that persecution reached a peak within living memory but continues at an intense enough level today - not just in the Middle East but in most countries - to make the risk of the need to move on real. - The two above points mean that Israel cannot permit a situation where its basic security is in someone else's hands. - If a Palestinian state existed, it would have the right to its own armed forces, open foreign policy and alliances. - At the last Palestinian Authority elections, Hamas won. - Hamas is committed, as a matter of basic principle, to the elimination of Israel. - Hamas is supported by Iran, which also supports Hezbollah. - Israel has nuclear weapons but while these may deter foreign states, deterrence is not effective against terrorist groups, nor is it credible against a proto-state that claims territory Israel itself either claims or needs.
The above points are irreconcilable. There is no solution beyond stalemate and intermittent violence until Palestinians, and neighbouring states, accept the permanence of an Israel with defensible borders, or Israel no longer exists.
I must've been asleep a long time. Between going to bed and getting up it seems a hospital in Gaza has both been totally destroyed and immediately rebuilt.
The previous night we ate at a Sardinian restaurant - http://sannas1.co.uk/ - and it too was delicious and the staff wonderfully friendly.
I am now stuffed after a cooked breakfast and will have to embark on some serious dieting/exercising when I get home later today. But first Tullie House then St Mary's Church Wreay - https://www.stmaryswreay.org/.
Well worth a visit to Carlisle for those who have not been.
That kleftiko looks magic.
Do they seem the sort to be offended if you ask them to hold the chilli (I'm allergic to it) ? If not, I'll see if I can try them next time I'm up there.
The biggest mistake made by serious media outlets was taking propaganda from one side about what had happened, regardless of who was responsible, at face value.
@Yokes was right to point out the significance of it being the carpark that got hit.
Mark Urban @MarkUrban01 · 1h Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast: - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden - Jordan then cancels the summit - violence across the West Bank - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday, That’s the crisis President Biden flies into
I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too
Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
On what basis apart from your inherent prejudice are you saying 80% Israeli?
And the world will not blame Israel if they have evidence it wasn’t them. But you will
As you want to make it persional I'll answer you. I have a foot in both camps. I'm Jewish and many of my family -children of my sister -live in Israel. I also have worked in the Middle East dozens of times so have many good friends living there who I am in regular contact with.
What few on here seem to understand is that Arabs have the same sensitivities hopes as the Israelis. They treat life as being just as precious. I've been to several Arab weddings and the only place I've seen families as warm and as close is at Jewish ones
They are not zombies or cannon fodder as some on here seem to think. Your average citizen in Beirut has much more political knowledge and intelligence than their British equivalent. They're a very old civilisations and their reasoning and wisdom is a revelastion every time I go. They're also among my favourite people and I've probably worked in more countries than Leon!
Yes, the average Israeli and Arab citizens may well have the same sensitivities. But the people launching the rockets are *not* average Arab citizens. They are terrorists. And terrorists throughout time have shown that they care f-all about the life of others; even of people like them if they believe the deaths will take the *cause* forward.
Then there's the rather large chance that this was an accident. It has been reported that lots of the rockets fired from Gaza fail and fall on Gaza itself.
Likewise we should make a distinction between the Israeli *people*, and Netanyahu and his minions.
Some of the more fervent pro-Palestinian people claim it is more complex than that. As Israel has national service, most of the Israeli population can be seen to be 'minions'. Especially those who are still available for reserve call-up.
This argument gets perilously close to "There are no innocent Jews" for my liking.
By "minions", I meant his government, NOT the rank and file foot-soldiers.
No. I disagree. Whoever he is was reporting what we knew at the time. Seems quite measured to me.
"What we knew at the time"? All we knew is what Hamas were saying.
Well that and the videos of course. And the fact that the Israelis didn't immediately deny it.
The fact Israel didn't immediately deny it? I wouldn't want you on a jury if I'm ever on trial.
Indeed, taking any accusation at face value and just repeating it verbatim is at best idiotic and at worst malign when one considers the source is a terrorist group. Compounding that by suggesting that the lack of any denial means it must be true is a huge leap and unfortunately this seems to be the pervasive attitude among the media.
The previous night we ate at a Sardinian restaurant - http://sannas1.co.uk/ - and it too was delicious and the staff wonderfully friendly.
I am now stuffed after a cooked breakfast and will have to embark on some serious dieting/exercising when I get home later today. But first Tullie House then St Mary's Church Wreay - https://www.stmaryswreay.org/.
Well worth a visit to Carlisle for those who have not been.
That kleftiko looks magic.
Do they seem the sort to be offended if you ask them to hold the chilli (I'm allergic to it) ? If not, I'll see if I can try them next time I'm up there.
I must've been asleep a long time. Between going to bed and getting up it seems a hospital in Gaza has both been totally destroyed and immediately rebuilt.
That seems to be what happened, the media are rather reticient to mention that the hospital is pretty much undamaged.
So what has actually happened at this hospital? Blown up by the Israelis but no bomb crater. Blown up by an Islamic Jihad misfire but just a few burnt out cars in the car park. 500 dead, no 300 dead, no "casualties rising".
We have video both of IJ firing rockets and one dipping off path and breaking apart. Broadcast live on Al Jazeera. We have Wild Claims of an Israeli massacre and collapsing buildings - but the buildings are intact. And the morning after images show a load of burnt out cars (and not an EV in sight...) and minimal damage.
So - IJ rocket misfires and breaks up in mid air. Flaming debris is seen falling. And we have an obvious large fire in a car park next to the hospital. So....
On topic, it's been going on 75 years. It doesn't end until both sides can live peacefully together or until one wipes the other out. All else is temporary ceasefire.
With growing extremism around the world, the chances of a permanent solution in the next few decades are low.
The root facts are these:
- Israel exists as an existential backstop for the Jewish people. - Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against pretty much continually since they were scattered from their homeland almost 2000 years ago; that persecution reached a peak within living memory but continues at an intense enough level today - not just in the Middle East but in most countries - to make the risk of the need to move on real. - The two above points mean that Israel cannot permit a situation where its basic security is in someone else's hands. - If a Palestinian state existed, it would have the right to its own armed forces, open foreign policy and alliances. - At the last Palestinian Authority elections, Hamas won. - Hamas is committed, as a matter of basic principle, to the elimination of Israel. - Hamas is supported by Iran, which also supports Hezbollah. - Israel has nuclear weapons but while these may deter foreign states, deterrence is not effective against terrorist groups, nor is it credible against a proto-state that claims territory Israel itself either claims or needs.
The above points are irreconcilable. There is no solution beyond stalemate and intermittent violence until Palestinians, and neighbouring states, accept the permanence of an Israel with defensible borders, or Israel no longer exists.
I fear you are right. The only thing that I have to hang my hope on is that sometimes it is darkest before the dawn.
The way we have peace is only when both sides are tired of fighting and ready to talk. That was the case in NI, it needs to be the case here.
I cannot see the conditions for peace to spring from the current situation, but then it was hard to see those conditions in NI in the early 1990s. We must all live in hope.
In other news Biden has condemned Hamas for the hospital incident. Israel had the receipts this time and good thing too. Israel will need to ensure that 24/7 surveillance of civilian infrastructure is in place because Hamas will stage more attacks on their own people and attempt to point the finger at Israel.
Yup, agreed. BBC needs to get rid of him today, he's giving his own opinion as fact to millions of people worldwide and he's very much not an expert and clearly has an agenda to blame Israel.
You need to listen again - properly.
His first words are that the the Israeli military has been contacted and that they are investigating. His last words are that the video still has to be verified. In between he makes the perfectly valid point that rocket attacks haven't been seen to cause that much damage.
All this at 20:08. At the same time on here most posters were assuming it was most probably a terrible mistake by the Israelis.
Nah. He made a series of unsupported and unverified accusations under the banner of the BBC. There was no balance and no attempt at impartiality.
As I said on here last night, if I, sat in the backwaters of Lincolnshire, could see that we needed to wait until we got the facts then what the fuck was a BBC correpondent doing throwing around unverified accusations like that which were only likely to inflame an Arabic audience.
There has been some good BBC coverage over the last week but it has been destroyed by error riddled, biased reporting and a complete lack of impartiality (such as BBC Arabic reporters referring to the Hamas attacks as a 'Morning of Hope')
In other news Biden has condemned Hamas for the hospital incident. Israel had the receipts this time and good thing too. Israel will need to ensure that 24/7 surveillance of civilian infrastructure is in place because Hamas will stage more attacks on their own people and attempt to point the finger at Israel.
It's a bit of leap from 'rocket misfire' to 'stage an attack on their own people'. Some people were quick to judgement last night and condemned the IDF on what now seems a pretty shaky basis. Some people were quick to condemn Hamas, and produced what was then some pretty shaky evidence. The latter complained about Hamas and supporters of Palestine for trying to frame this in a way to set people's perceptions. Your comment appears very much to be doing the same, from the other side.
The biggest mistake made by serious media outlets was taking propaganda from one side about what had happened, regardless of who was responsible, at face value.
@Yokes was right to point out the significance of it being the carpark that got hit.
Are there any serious media outlets? Or are they all "never wrong for long"?
Misreporting of incidents like this could easily lead to hundreds if not thousands more deaths and further escalation. Was it too hard to pause and wonder how good the evidence was?
It is too easy to pick out bad reporting, but as a random example, here's one from the New York Times.
They do the usual thing of putting the headline first and the disclaimer buried in the text but also manage to include a totally unconnected library picture without explanation.
In other news Biden has condemned Hamas for the hospital incident. Israel had the receipts this time and good thing too. Israel will need to ensure that 24/7 surveillance of civilian infrastructure is in place because Hamas will stage more attacks on their own people and attempt to point the finger at Israel.
It's a bit of leap from 'rocket misfire' to 'stage an attack on their own people'. Some people were quick to judgement last night and condemned the IDF on what now seems a pretty shaky basis. Some people were quick to condemn Hamas, and produced what was then some pretty shaky evidence. The latter complained about Hamas and supporters of Palestine for trying to frame this in a way to set people's perceptions. Your comment appears very much to be doing the same, from the other side.
I don't think (or I want to not think, not that it's impossible) that Hamas fired deliberately on their own people. Perhaps, who knows, they had some kind of controlled explosion there.
Much more likely, however, is that there was a misfire, the thing exploded on launch, and they didn't waste the opportunity to use that to blame it on Israel and create a hoo-ha on the eve of POTUS' visit.
But I will now cease ridiculous speculation because it is just that and helps nothing.
I do absolutely think that whatever happened it was interesting that, like Oct 7th vs the Saudi peace deal, it happened when it happened.
The biggest mistake made by serious media outlets was taking propaganda from one side about what had happened, regardless of who was responsible, at face value.
@Yokes was right to point out the significance of it being the carpark that got hit.
Are there any serious media outlets? Or are they all "never wrong for long"?
Misreporting of incidents like this could easily lead to hundreds if not thousands more deaths and further escalation. Was it too hard to pause and wonder how good the evidence was?
It is too easy to pick out bad reporting, but as a random example, here's one from the New York Times.
They do the usual thing of putting the headline first and the disclaimer buried in the text..
This is a trend which really took off with Trump, when the media realised how much it boosted views/readership. It's now routine for deeply tendentious statements (lies) to headline any story, with analysis buried paragraphs below.
In other news Biden has condemned Hamas for the hospital incident. Israel had the receipts this time and good thing too. Israel will need to ensure that 24/7 surveillance of civilian infrastructure is in place because Hamas will stage more attacks on their own people and attempt to point the finger at Israel.
It's a bit of leap from 'rocket misfire' to 'stage an attack on their own people'. Some people were quick to judgement last night and condemned the IDF on what now seems a pretty shaky basis. Some people were quick to condemn Hamas, and produced what was then some pretty shaky evidence. The latter complained about Hamas and supporters of Palestine for trying to frame this in a way to set people's perceptions. Your comment appears very much to be doing the same, from the other side.
I don't think (or I want to not think, not that it's impossible) that Hamas fired deliberately on their own people. Perhaps, who knows, they had some kind of controlled explosion there.
Much more likely, however, is that there was a misfire, the thing exploded on launch, and they didn't waste the opportunity to use that to blame it on Israel and create a hoo-ha on the eve of POTUS' visit.
But I will now cease ridiculous speculation because it is just that and helps nothing.
I do absolutely think that whatever happened it was interesting that, like Oct 7th vs the Saudi peace deal, it happened when it happened.
“Done by the other team”? Bit more dignified than that please Mr President.
I think Joe Biden is now briefed in extremely basic terms so he gets it. He then says these things. It's quite skillful how they keep the show on the road.
“Done by the other team”? Bit more dignified than that please Mr President.
I think Joe Biden is now briefed in extremely basic terms so he gets it. He then says these things. It's quite skillful how they keep the show on the road.
I remember some years ago - dear god 30 years ago - when the Natwest tower was bombed. I had both Sky and BBC on. On Sky there was reporting "from the scene" with constant commentary, speculation, interviews, you name it. On the BBC for around 45 minutes, perhaps longer, there was nothing. You wouldn't have known that anything had happened.
And then after the hour the BBC reported on it with a considered, more factual because they had had time to check some facts, and complete package.
Which is better? We are all thirsty for 24-hr rolling news and, as we saw from the BBC's report last night, they have evidently decided to throw their hat in with that approach. But it is not without peril for media organisations, especially the BBC.
In my world of paying separately for subscriptions for different parts of the BBC it might have forced me to cancel the one to BBC News.
Right. I’ve looked at the vids and read the opinions, and I’m happy to walk back my “default assumption” that it was “an Israeli bomb” - that supposedly killed hundreds and demolished a hospital
Because I absolutely don’t see evidence of hundreds dead and there is no demolished hospital
It could still have been Israeli ordnance of some kind. A missile. A chunk of bomb. Israel IS bombarding Gaza
Equally it could have been a misfired Hamas missile, a deliberate Hamas false flag, a fire in a car park caused by something else entirely
What a mess. One thing is for sure amidst the fog of war: Hamas is good at war porn PR. They’ve been doing it for decades and they know how to turn a fire that killed 50 into an epochal atrocity that killed 500
This appears to be initially targeted at the military market, but its plug & play nature means it's the sort of thing likely to be widely adopted, quite rapidly.
This is spot on. It is very quiet on this topic this morning.
We have never seen a more graphic example of the double standards applied to Israel than the wave of condemnation that erupted when people thought the IDF were responsible for the hospital attack, followed by the silence accompanying the realisation it was Hamas or their proxies. https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1714578145532125638?s=20
Ironic that Corbyn urged waiting for the evidence re Salisbury. Equally ironic that those who condemned Corbyn for not rushing to judgement now see the need to collect evidence in Gaza.
In other news Biden has condemned Hamas for the hospital incident. Israel had the receipts this time and good thing too. Israel will need to ensure that 24/7 surveillance of civilian infrastructure is in place because Hamas will stage more attacks on their own people and attempt to point the finger at Israel.
It's a bit of leap from 'rocket misfire' to 'stage an attack on their own people'. Some people were quick to judgement last night and condemned the IDF on what now seems a pretty shaky basis. Some people were quick to condemn Hamas, and produced what was then some pretty shaky evidence. The latter complained about Hamas and supporters of Palestine for trying to frame this in a way to set people's perceptions. Your comment appears very much to be doing the same, from the other side.
I don't think (or I want to not think, not that it's impossible) that Hamas fired deliberately on their own people. Perhaps, who knows, they had some kind of controlled explosion there.
Much more likely, however, is that there was a misfire, the thing exploded on launch, and they didn't waste the opportunity to use that to blame it on Israel and create a hoo-ha on the eve of POTUS' visit.
But I will now cease ridiculous speculation because it is just that and helps nothing.
I do absolutely think that whatever happened it was interesting that, like Oct 7th vs the Saudi peace deal, it happened when it happened.
/Tin foil hat off./
If it was an accident, it was a hell of an unlucky one.
For a single rocket to misfire and then drop into the crowded grounds of a hospital, given everywhere else it could have fallen, and given how many other rockets have been launched without problem, for the warhead not to detonate as part of the misfire, or on launch.
However, the more rockets are launched, the greater the chances that some will go wrong - and coincidences do happen; indeed, are to be expected as part of the law of large numbers.
What does seem highly implausible to me is that a rocket could be made to misfire and then drop onto hospital grounds. The control that would be needed to hit a target so accurately with malfunctioning equipment is phenomenal.
So if it wasn't an accident then it seems much more likely to me that it was a ground explosion from a bomb already on site, with the rocket falling elsewhere (shouldn't that have produced an explosion on landing too? Not if there wasn't a warhead on it. Shouldn't we have seen it land anyway? Probably not in the dark, particularly with a genuine explosion occurring. There should, however, still be impact damage visible somewhere).
In other news Biden has condemned Hamas for the hospital incident. Israel had the receipts this time and good thing too. Israel will need to ensure that 24/7 surveillance of civilian infrastructure is in place because Hamas will stage more attacks on their own people and attempt to point the finger at Israel.
It's a bit of leap from 'rocket misfire' to 'stage an attack on their own people'. Some people were quick to judgement last night and condemned the IDF on what now seems a pretty shaky basis. Some people were quick to condemn Hamas, and produced what was then some pretty shaky evidence. The latter complained about Hamas and supporters of Palestine for trying to frame this in a way to set people's perceptions. Your comment appears very much to be doing the same, from the other side.
I don't think (or I want to not think, not that it's impossible) that Hamas fired deliberately on their own people. Perhaps, who knows, they had some kind of controlled explosion there.
Much more likely, however, is that there was a misfire, the thing exploded on launch, and they didn't waste the opportunity to use that to blame it on Israel and create a hoo-ha on the eve of POTUS' visit.
But I will now cease ridiculous speculation because it is just that and helps nothing.
I do absolutely think that whatever happened it was interesting that, like Oct 7th vs the Saudi peace deal, it happened when it happened.
/Tin foil hat off./
If it was an accident, it was a hell of an unlucky one.
For a single rocket to misfire and then drop into the crowded grounds of a hospital, given everywhere else it could have fallen, and given how many other rockets have been launched without problem, for the warhead not to detonate as part of the misfire, or on launch.
However, the more rockets are launched, the greater the chances that some will go wrong - and coincidences do happen; indeed, are to be expected as part of the law of large numbers.
What does seem highly implausible to me is that a rocket could be made to misfire and then drop onto hospital grounds. The control that would be needed to hit a target so accurately with malfunctioning equipment is phenomenal.
So if it wasn't an accident then it seems much more likely to me that it was a ground explosion from a bomb already on site, with the rocket falling elsewhere (shouldn't that have produced an explosion on landing too? Not if there wasn't a warhead on it. Shouldn't we have seen it land anyway? Probably not in the dark, particularly with a genuine explosion occurring. There should, however, still be impact damage visible somewhere).
I should have mentioned the target: a Christian-run hospital. In PR terms, if you wanted to appeal to the emotions of the West, what would do more so? Many vulnerable victims, plus the religious angle. Again, it's a striking coincidence that the explosion hit one of the few religiously-related but not Islamic sites in Gaza. But if you're a cynical fundamentalist Islamist from Hamas, you must have at best ambivalent thoughts about Christians operating there at all. Would they think less of bombing infidel facilities and those using them? Yes, I think they would.
Ironic that Corbyn urged waiting for the evidence re Salisbury. Equally ironic that those who condemned Corbyn for not rushing to judgement now see the need to collect evidence in Gaza.
That's not right. Corbyn's comment last night was made a few hours after the event. His 'I need to see the evidence!" call came about ten days after the Salisbury attack, when there was lots of evidence out there.
Comments
Palestinian officials say it was caused by an Israeli air strike; the Israelis say it was caused by a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We’ve been showing videos from last night and images of the aftermath taken this morning to weapons experts to try to verify what happened.
While there is no overall consensus, one said the fact that hospital buildings have not collapsed, some cars are undamaged and there is no visible deep crater suggests that this was not consistent with an Israeli air strike.
We have also showed a video with the apparent sound of the impact to these experts - one said he couldn’t tell whether this was an Israeli strike or a rocket fired from inside Gaza.
We're continuing to look into this and will bring you more when we get it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589
What few on here seem to understand is that Arabs have the same sensitivities as the Israelis. They treat life as being just as precious. I've been to several Arab weddings and the only place I've seen families as warm and as close is at Jewish ones
They are not zombies or cannon fodder as some on here seem to think. Your average citizen in Beirut has much more political knowledge and intelligence than their British equivalent. They're very old civilisations and their reasoning and wisdom is a revelation every time I go. They're also among my favourite people and I've probably worked in more countries than Leon!
On the hospital we have, on PB
1) Various people desperate for it to have been done by the other side. To fit their agenda.
2) The usual poster or 2 upset that people have opinions, theories. Instead of listening to the BBC World Service with a complete attention, while standing to attention…. #ToyJournalists, perhaps?
3) Sone people being moral and rational.
I have an agenda as well, so it was obviously the Woke Trans Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs. But it wasn't their fault. They were provoked.
Then there's the rather large chance that this was an accident. It has been reported that lots of the rockets fired from Gaza fail and fall on Gaza itself.
"Sorry, this circumstance is somewhat of an anomaly for us – a UK customer shipping overseas."
This argument gets perilously close to "There are no innocent Jews" for my liking.
With growing extremism around the world, the chances of a permanent solution in the next few decades are low.
The root facts are these:
- Israel exists as an existential backstop for the Jewish people.
- Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against pretty much continually since they were scattered from their homeland almost 2000 years ago; that persecution reached a peak within living memory but continues at an intense enough level today - not just in the Middle East but in most countries - to make the risk of the need to move on real.
- The two above points mean that Israel cannot permit a situation where its basic security is in someone else's hands.
- If a Palestinian state existed, it would have the right to its own armed forces, open foreign policy and alliances.
- At the last Palestinian Authority elections, Hamas won.
- Hamas is committed, as a matter of basic principle, to the elimination of Israel.
- Hamas is supported by Iran, which also supports Hezbollah.
- Israel has nuclear weapons but while these may deter foreign states, deterrence is not effective against terrorist groups, nor is it credible against a proto-state that claims territory Israel itself either claims or needs.
The above points are irreconcilable. There is no solution beyond stalemate and intermittent violence until Palestinians, and neighbouring states, accept the permanence of an Israel with defensible borders, or Israel no longer exists.
I must've been asleep a long time. Between going to bed and getting up it seems a hospital in Gaza has both been totally destroyed and immediately rebuilt.
Do they seem the sort to be offended if you ask them to hold the chilli (I'm allergic to it) ? If not, I'll see if I can try them next time I'm up there.
@Yokes was right to point out the significance of it being the carpark that got hit.
We ship 85% of our product overseas.
Reminds me of many a happy holiday in Kefallonia
Eve of peace deal between Israel & Saudi = invasion of Israel
Eve of POTUS visit to Israel and broader Arab world = alleged Israel "atrocity"
The way we have peace is only when both sides are tired of fighting and ready to talk. That was the case in NI, it needs to be the case here.
I cannot see the conditions for peace to spring from the current situation, but then it was hard to see those conditions in NI in the early 1990s. We must all live in hope.
Keep 'em coming ....no one leaves empty handed ...a crackerjack pencil for Topping!
As I said on here last night, if I, sat in the backwaters of Lincolnshire, could see that we needed to wait until we got the facts then what the fuck was a BBC correpondent doing throwing around unverified accusations like that which were only likely to inflame an Arabic audience.
There has been some good BBC coverage over the last week but it has been destroyed by error riddled, biased reporting and a complete lack of impartiality (such as BBC Arabic reporters referring to the Hamas attacks as a 'Morning of Hope')
Misreporting of incidents like this could easily lead to hundreds if not thousands more deaths and further escalation. Was it too hard to pause and wonder how good the evidence was?
It is too easy to pick out bad reporting, but as a random example, here's one from the New York Times.
They do the usual thing of putting the headline first and the disclaimer buried in the text but also manage to include a totally unconnected library picture without explanation.
https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media/F8tJkH2WQAA74J5.jpg
On the plus side, you'd hope that any claims by Hamas will now be taken with several pillars of salt.
Much more likely, however, is that there was a misfire, the thing exploded on launch, and they didn't waste the opportunity to use that to blame it on Israel and create a hoo-ha on the eve of POTUS' visit.
But I will now cease ridiculous speculation because it is just that and helps nothing.
I do absolutely think that whatever happened it was interesting that, like Oct 7th vs the Saudi peace deal, it happened when it happened.
/Tin foil hat off./
It's now routine for deeply tendentious statements (lies) to headline any story, with analysis buried paragraphs below.
Israeli air strikes have hit Al Ahli hospital in Gaza. More than 500 people - patients, doctors & those sheltering - have been killed.
What unspeakable horror. We will mourn their loss forever...
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And then after the hour the BBC reported on it with a considered, more factual because they had had time to check some facts, and complete package.
Which is better? We are all thirsty for 24-hr rolling news and, as we saw from the BBC's report last night, they have evidently decided to throw their hat in with that approach. But it is not without peril for media organisations, especially the BBC.
In my world of paying separately for subscriptions for different parts of the BBC it might have forced me to cancel the one to BBC News.
- that supposedly killed hundreds and demolished a hospital
Because I absolutely don’t see evidence of hundreds dead and there is no demolished hospital
It could still have been Israeli ordnance of some kind. A missile. A chunk of bomb. Israel IS bombarding Gaza
Equally it could have been a misfired Hamas missile, a deliberate Hamas false flag, a fire in a car park caused by something else entirely
What a mess. One thing is for sure amidst the fog of war: Hamas is good at war porn PR. They’ve been doing it for decades and they know how to turn a fire that killed 50 into an epochal atrocity that killed 500
Last night, too many jumped to conclusions around the tragic loss of life at Al Ahli hospital.
Getting this wrong would put even more lives at risk.
Wait for the facts, report them clearly and accurately.
Cool heads must prevail.
https://x.com/JamesCleverly/status/1714573399635140798?s=20
This appears to be initially targeted at the military market, but its plug & play nature means it's the sort of thing likely to be widely adopted, quite rapidly.
Real-time, analyst-grade, field intelligence
We are building the digital backbone for the age of autonomous warfare
https://www.lambda-automata.eu/products
Something like 93% of British firms don't export at all.
We send a good 40% of our online orders overseas. Almost all of that is to US/Canada!
We have never seen a more graphic example of the double standards applied to Israel than the wave of condemnation that erupted when people thought the IDF were responsible for the hospital attack, followed by the silence accompanying the realisation it was Hamas or their proxies.
https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1714578145532125638?s=20
For a single rocket to misfire and then drop into the crowded grounds of a hospital, given everywhere else it could have fallen, and given how many other rockets have been launched without problem, for the warhead not to detonate as part of the misfire, or on launch.
However, the more rockets are launched, the greater the chances that some will go wrong - and coincidences do happen; indeed, are to be expected as part of the law of large numbers.
What does seem highly implausible to me is that a rocket could be made to misfire and then drop onto hospital grounds. The control that would be needed to hit a target so accurately with malfunctioning equipment is phenomenal.
So if it wasn't an accident then it seems much more likely to me that it was a ground explosion from a bomb already on site, with the rocket falling elsewhere (shouldn't that have produced an explosion on landing too? Not if there wasn't a warhead on it. Shouldn't we have seen it land anyway? Probably not in the dark, particularly with a genuine explosion occurring. There should, however, still be impact damage visible somewhere).