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It’s getting harder to see how this ends – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited October 2023 in General
imageIt’s getting harder to see how this ends – politicalbetting.com

The big story overnight from Israel has been the attack on the hospital and the reports of the huge toll of inmates being killed. Both sides seem to be working hard on the public relations front to get over that they were not to blame.

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Interesting thread,

    https://x.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390254935851272?s=20

    It answer one query people have in regards to do the Islamist terrorist have rockets big enough to do this damage, the answer is a definite yes. PIJ Saraya Al-Quds showed them off the other day and some were geolocated.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that
  • FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that

    Do you think it’s fair to say that? He certainly shows signs of it, and was extraordinarily brilliant tonight, but he’s not done it consistently (because he hasn’t been around long enough) so surely Messi, Mbappe etc are somewhat ahead.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    Leon said:

    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that

    Generational talent. Really up there with the very best. Having him and Kane in the same starting 11 is absolutely incredible timing for England so hopefully we win next summer.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,938
    Leon said:

    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that

    Hurry up please, it's time.

    Increasingly feeling as though this is how the world ends. Or at least, how it spirals into WW3.

    And just think, five more years and we might have hit the singularity, and digital immortality.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    FPT on the parking area explosion.

    Maybe the location isnt significant other than the potential fact thats where the explosion occurred. Maybe it is and something or someone was positioned there but there is no clarity yet, though the awareness that the explosion didnt apparently occur right on top of the hospital has been about for hours, and surprisingly missed by nearly everyone.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    "IDF has claimed that Palestine Islamic Jihad group was behind hospital attack"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/17/israel-hamas-war-gaza-palestine-hospital-air-strike-iran/
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that

    Hurry up please, it's time.

    Increasingly feeling as though this is how the world ends. Or at least, how it spirals into WW3.

    And just think, five more years and we might have hit the singularity, and digital immortality.
    It will be a relief if we ever get back to where the biggest news story is a potential tax on pasties.
    I long for the days of bloke cries at funeral; fella eats bacon sandwich; and redhead wears skirt.

    What happened?


  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    edited October 2023
    Wikipedia, and I know its page is in flux, is seeming to suggest the rocket landed in a courtyard killing not inpatients but a crowd out in the open. That would possibly alter down the size of explosion needed to cause such a death toll and may give a possible answer to the disparity that a Palestinian rocket has never caused such a death toll on Israeli land.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263

    Leon said:

    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that

    Do you think it’s fair to say that? He certainly shows signs of it, and was extraordinarily brilliant tonight, but he’s not done it consistently (because he hasn’t been around long enough) so surely Messi, Mbappe etc are somewhat ahead.
    I've watched a ton of vids analysing his play, and I'd say yes he is on a par with Haaland and Mbappe, who are the only players in his class (and all interestingly and hugely different)

    Messi is in another higher class altogether, but it is like he has ascended to a weird heaven in Miami and is out of the ranking

    Bellingham could almost single handedly win the euros or a World Cup for England, but luckily he doesn't have to - he has a load of talent around him, as well. Southgate really needs to win a trophy, with this incredible squad
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Receipts incoming...from Reuters journo.

    IDF says it will release footage and an intercepted conversation proving Palestinian Islamic Jihad behind attack on Gaza hospital @Reuters

    IDF is now showing us drone footage it says is of Gaza hospital post explosion. Footage shows hospital was not directly hit. Hit was in the parking lot, according to IDF images.

    https://x.com/emilyarielrose/status/1714400485405335610?s=20
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,705
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that

    Do you think it’s fair to say that? He certainly shows signs of it, and was extraordinarily brilliant tonight, but he’s not done it consistently (because he hasn’t been around long enough) so surely Messi, Mbappe etc are somewhat ahead.
    I've watched a ton of vids analysing his play, and I'd say yes he is on a par with Haaland and Mbappe, who are the only players in his class (and all interestingly and hugely different)

    Messi is in another higher class altogether, but it is like he has ascended to a weird heaven in Miami and is out of the ranking

    Bellingham could almost single handedly win the euros or a World Cup for England, but luckily he doesn't have to - he has a load of talent around him, as well. Southgate really needs to win a trophy, with this incredible squad
    Your occasional reminder that Jude was born in 2003.

  • kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that

    Hurry up please, it's time.

    Increasingly feeling as though this is how the world ends. Or at least, how it spirals into WW3.

    And just think, five more years and we might have hit the singularity, and digital immortality.
    It will be a relief if we ever get back to where the biggest news story is a potential tax on pasties.
    Bizarre. I can remember the internet being alight and the newspapers front-paging it about George's tweak to what hot foods qualified for VAT exemption. Take nothing for granted.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,705

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    They did it.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907
    edited October 2023

    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
    Any reason why Israel who can apparently kill any Hamas operator by dropping a targeted bomb down their chimney somehow missed a bomb factory in a strip of land 22 miles by 7 when their entry points were under more surveillance than Dartmoor?....and why they haven't chosen to use these rockets any time in the past?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,705

    David Aaronovitch
    @DAaronovitch
    ·
    28m
    Unless you actually know something, how about S’ingTFU?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
    Any reason why Israel who can apparently kill any Hamas operator by dropping a targeted bomb down their chimney somehow missed a bomb factory in a strip of land 22 miles by 7 when their entry points were under more surveillance than Dartmoor?....and why they haven't chosen to use these rockets any time in the past?
    No, never fired them....

    Iranian-Backed Islamic Jihad Fires ‘Badr 3’ Rocket at Ashkelon - May 6, 2019

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/terrorism-news/rockets-from-gaza/iranian-backed-islamic-jihad-fires-bader-3-rocket-at-ashkelon/2019/05/06/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    The hospital in Gaza is an Anglican-run hospital.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
    Any reason why Israel who can apparently kill any Hamas operator by dropping a targeted bomb down their chimney somehow missed a bomb factory in a strip of land 22 miles by 7 when their entry points were under more surveillance than Dartmoor?....and why they haven't chosen to use these rockets any time in the past?
    No, never fired them....

    Iranian-Backed Islamic Jihad Fires ‘Badr 3’ Rocket at Ashkelon - May 6, 2019

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/terrorism-news/rockets-from-gaza/iranian-backed-islamic-jihad-fires-bader-3-rocket-at-ashkelon/2019/05/06/
    Is it likely they would have sent out 150 members of Hamas with guns knives and ropes on motorbikes when a single bomb could have taken out the whole rave and kibbutz and a couple of nearby villages for good measure?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
    Any reason why Israel who can apparently kill any Hamas operator by dropping a targeted bomb down their chimney somehow missed a bomb factory in a strip of land 22 miles by 7 when their entry points were under more surveillance than Dartmoor?....and why they haven't chosen to use these rockets any time in the past?
    No, never fired them....

    Iranian-Backed Islamic Jihad Fires ‘Badr 3’ Rocket at Ashkelon - May 6, 2019

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/terrorism-news/rockets-from-gaza/iranian-backed-islamic-jihad-fires-bader-3-rocket-at-ashkelon/2019/05/06/
    Is it likely they would have sent out 150 members of Hamas with guns knives and ropes on motorbikes when a single bomb could have taken out the whole rave and kibbutz and a couple of nearby villages for good measure?
    You really are a wally aren't you...

    8 days ago — As she spoke, the group's military wing, the al-Qassem Brigades, fired a volley of Iranian-designed Badr 3 rockets....

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/from-the-gaza-border-families-hunt-news-of-loved-ones-taken-by-hamas-qgt968p28

    We can can keep playing this silly game if you like.
  • Andy_JS said:

    The hospital in Gaza is an Anglican-run hospital.

    HYUFD would be interested in that fact.
  • Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
    Any reason why Israel who can apparently kill any Hamas operator by dropping a targeted bomb down their chimney somehow missed a bomb factory in a strip of land 22 miles by 7 when their entry points were under more surveillance than Dartmoor?....and why they haven't chosen to use these rockets any time in the past?
    No, never fired them....

    Iranian-Backed Islamic Jihad Fires ‘Badr 3’ Rocket at Ashkelon - May 6, 2019

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/terrorism-news/rockets-from-gaza/iranian-backed-islamic-jihad-fires-bader-3-rocket-at-ashkelon/2019/05/06/
    Is it likely they would have sent out 150 members of Hamas with guns knives and ropes on motorbikes when a single bomb could have taken out the whole rave and kibbutz and a couple of nearby villages for good measure?
    Yes, because Hamas wanted to take hostages for ransom, and you have better odds of taking hostages when you send terrorists to kidnap them VS dropping a big bomb on them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    I agree - The triple lock can't continue indefinitely. It's a simple mathematical fact.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
    Any reason why Israel who can apparently kill any Hamas operator by dropping a targeted bomb down their chimney somehow missed a bomb factory in a strip of land 22 miles by 7 when their entry points were under more surveillance than Dartmoor?....and why they haven't chosen to use these rockets any time in the past?
    No, never fired them....

    Iranian-Backed Islamic Jihad Fires ‘Badr 3’ Rocket at Ashkelon - May 6, 2019

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/terrorism-news/rockets-from-gaza/iranian-backed-islamic-jihad-fires-bader-3-rocket-at-ashkelon/2019/05/06/
    Is it likely they would have sent out 150 members of Hamas with guns knives and ropes on motorbikes when a single bomb could have taken out the whole rave and kibbutz and a couple of nearby villages for good measure?
    You really are a wally aren't you...

    8 days ago — As she spoke, the group's military wing, the al-Qassem Brigades, fired a volley of Iranian-designed Badr 3 rockets....

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/from-the-gaza-border-families-hunt-news-of-loved-ones-taken-by-hamas-qgt968p28

    We can can keep playing this silly game if you like.
    It's academic. The world has condemned it and Israel as so often have achieved a PR disaster from the jaws of being seen as the good guys by their arrogance and bullying and not knowing when to stop. No one enjoys watching a Turkey shoot.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,579
    Biden's trip cancelled.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
    Any reason why Israel who can apparently kill any Hamas operator by dropping a targeted bomb down their chimney somehow missed a bomb factory in a strip of land 22 miles by 7 when their entry points were under more surveillance than Dartmoor?....and why they haven't chosen to use these rockets any time in the past?
    No, never fired them....

    Iranian-Backed Islamic Jihad Fires ‘Badr 3’ Rocket at Ashkelon - May 6, 2019

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/terrorism-news/rockets-from-gaza/iranian-backed-islamic-jihad-fires-bader-3-rocket-at-ashkelon/2019/05/06/
    Is it likely they would have sent out 150 members of Hamas with guns knives and ropes on motorbikes when a single bomb could have taken out the whole rave and kibbutz and a couple of nearby villages for good measure?
    You really are a wally aren't you...

    8 days ago — As she spoke, the group's military wing, the al-Qassem Brigades, fired a volley of Iranian-designed Badr 3 rockets....

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/from-the-gaza-border-families-hunt-news-of-loved-ones-taken-by-hamas-qgt968p28

    We can can keep playing this silly game if you like.
    It's academic. The world has condemned it and Israel as so often have achieved a PR disaster from the jaws of being seen as the good guys by their arrogance and bullying and not knowing when to stop. No one enjoys watching a Turkey shoot.
    So you been caught out talking BS, so you are changing tac, that "fireworks" are actually massive rockets and they fire them all the time. Not just Badr, they have a whole range of arsenal of them. They fired a load of 150kg warhead ones earlier today in Haifa.

    Now, in your opinion, if Islamist terrorists have blown up a hospital, its still Israel's fault....According to Reuters , Israel are apparently showing journalist drone footage and audio recordings as we speak that show it was PIJ.

    I am sure those will be made public shortly and we can judge for ourselves. Israel response is such that if they can't stand up the story they will be in big trouble with the US, as Biden will be standing there in a few hours.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    edited October 2023
    carnforth said:

    Biden's trip cancelled.

    Offt.

    The problem with the hospital explosion is it fits perfectly with the Israeli narrative - they've warned people to evacuate hospitals, they've told 1 million people to evacuate Gaza City, they've pledged to eliminate Hamas wherever they hide.

    No matter what the truth. To the Muslim world, Israel, with the backing of the US, killed 500 people in a hospital.

    This is why I was so concerned with the rhetoric. Israel has snatched defeat even after a massacre of over a thousand of their own citizens.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    carnforth said:

    Biden's trip cancelled.

    To Israel? Or to Jordan? Have they turned the plane around as this is 1h ago?

    US president Joe Biden is on his way to Israel, having taken off in Air Force One from Joint Base Andrews. The White House has confirmed that the president will no longer travel to Jordan.

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1714401956632965290?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Eabhal said:
    No he doesn't....its carefully worded to not mentioned a side.

    "I am horrified by the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in a strike on a hospital in Gaza today, which I strongly condemn."

    Its basically word for word what Macron said.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618
    The Iranian Foreign Minister has just arrived in Saudi Arabia.

    https://x.com/dd_geopolitics/status/1714422390414102939
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558
    edited October 2023

    Receipts incoming...from Reuters journo.

    IDF says it will release footage and an intercepted conversation proving Palestinian Islamic Jihad behind attack on Gaza hospital @Reuters

    IDF is now showing us drone footage it says is of Gaza hospital post explosion. Footage shows hospital was not directly hit. Hit was in the parking lot, according to IDF images.

    https://x.com/emilyarielrose/status/1714400485405335610?s=20

    I will not be very surprised to discover that what exploded at the hospital car park was an "ambulance" carrying a couple of tons of high explosives. It would explain the size of the blast.

    I mean, it's not as if Hamas or any of the other crazies in Gaza carries their explosives around in ambulances, is it...?
  • Mark Regev, a former Israeli ambassador to the UK and now an advisor to Netanyahu, has told CNN that Israel has shared the information they had on the blast with US officials.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    carnforth said:

    Biden's trip cancelled.

    To Israel? Or to Jordan? Have they turned the plane around as this is 1h ago?

    US president Joe Biden is on his way to Israel, having taken off in Air Force One from Joint Base Andrews. The White House has confirmed that the president will no longer travel to Jordan.

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1714401956632965290?s=20
    I remember when it was Andrews Air Force Base
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    edited October 2023

    Receipts incoming...from Reuters journo.

    IDF says it will release footage and an intercepted conversation proving Palestinian Islamic Jihad behind attack on Gaza hospital @Reuters

    IDF is now showing us drone footage it says is of Gaza hospital post explosion. Footage shows hospital was not directly hit. Hit was in the parking lot, according to IDF images.

    https://x.com/emilyarielrose/status/1714400485405335610?s=20

    I will not be very surprised to discover that what exploded at the hospital car park was an "ambulance" carrying a couple of tons of high explosives. It would explain the size of the blast.

    I mean, it's not as if Hamas or any of the other crazies in Gaza carries their explosives around in ambulances, is it...?
    ...
  • Paging Leon....

    Embassy for the Iranian Republic in Syria, “Time is Up.”

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1714443804592480279?s=20
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that

    Hurry up please, it's time.

    Increasingly feeling as though this is how the world ends. Or at least, how it spirals into WW3.

    And just think, five more years and we might have hit the singularity, and digital immortality.
    It will be a relief if we ever get back to where the biggest news story is a potential tax on pasties.
    I long for the days of bloke cries at funeral; fella eats bacon sandwich; and redhead wears skirt.

    What happened?


    Twitter. We don't just give our own half-baked rubbish opinions, now we tweet other people's half-baked rubbish decisions provided they match ours. This dramatically increases our ability to produce bullshit and at a much larger rate of speed.
  • Twitter glitch allows CIA informant channel to be hijacked
    ... [big snip] ...
    Mr McSheehan ... said he had discovered the security mistake earlier on Tuesday.

    "My immediate thought was panic," he said.

    "I saw that the official Telegram link they were sharing could be hijacked - and my biggest fear was that a country like Russia, China or North Korea could easily intercept Western intelligence."
    ...
    The CIA did not reply to a BBC News request for comment - but within an hour of the request, the mistake had been corrected.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67137773
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    Eabhal said:
    No he doesn't....its carefully worded to not mentioned a side.

    "I am horrified by the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in a strike on a hospital in Gaza today, which I strongly condemn."

    Its basically word for word what Macron said.
    "Strike"
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:
    No he doesn't....its carefully worded to not mentioned a side.

    "I am horrified by the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in a strike on a hospital in Gaza today, which I strongly condemn."

    Its basically word for word what Macron said.
    "Strike"
    As I say, Macron used exactly the same words, followed by we must find out who did it.

    It was a missile strike on a hospital. That part isn't disputed.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-israel-says-it-will-release-evidence-which-it-claims-shows-an-islamic-jihad-rocket-hit-the-gaza-hospital-12986662

    Israel's military has said it will release evidence - including drone footage and an intercepted conversation - that it claims will prove an Islamist militant group was responsible for a deadly blast at a hospital in Gaza and not an Israeli airstrike.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
    Any reason why Israel who can apparently kill any Hamas operator by dropping a targeted bomb down their chimney somehow missed a bomb factory in a strip of land 22 miles by 7 when their entry points were under more surveillance than Dartmoor?....and why they haven't chosen to use these rockets any time in the past?
    No, never fired them....

    Iranian-Backed Islamic Jihad Fires ‘Badr 3’ Rocket at Ashkelon - May 6, 2019

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/terrorism-news/rockets-from-gaza/iranian-backed-islamic-jihad-fires-bader-3-rocket-at-ashkelon/2019/05/06/
    Is it likely they would have sent out 150 members of Hamas with guns knives and ropes on motorbikes when a single bomb could have taken out the whole rave and kibbutz and a couple of nearby villages for good measure?
    But the object was to secure hostages and swap them for their thousands held in Israeli jails?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    "Hamas firework" - The Badr 3 rocket for instance operated by Palestinian Islamic Jihad has a 300-400 kg warhead....

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
    Any reason why Israel who can apparently kill any Hamas operator by dropping a targeted bomb down their chimney somehow missed a bomb factory in a strip of land 22 miles by 7 when their entry points were under more surveillance than Dartmoor?....and why they haven't chosen to use these rockets any time in the past?
    No, never fired them....

    Iranian-Backed Islamic Jihad Fires ‘Badr 3’ Rocket at Ashkelon - May 6, 2019

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/terrorism-news/rockets-from-gaza/iranian-backed-islamic-jihad-fires-bader-3-rocket-at-ashkelon/2019/05/06/
    Is it likely they would have sent out 150 members of Hamas with guns knives and ropes on motorbikes when a single bomb could have taken out the whole rave and kibbutz and a couple of nearby villages for good measure?
    But the object was to secure hostages and swap them for their thousands held in Israeli jails?
    The Hamas attack probably had multiple aims. Not just hostages, but also a spectacular that a 'simple' explosion from a rocket could not get. It was an indication that Hamas could raid across the border. It would also create terror in the Israeli population, and any Israeli reaction would make further peace deals between Israel and Arab states more difficult.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    https://x.com/chrisdjackson/status/1714466476147532006?s=46&t=Vp6NqNN4ktoNY0DO98xlGA

    I’ve watched enough bad movies to know that we should be feeling some foreboding after this:

    "I COULDN'T LET HIM GO WITHOUT KISSING HIM"

    Before President Biden left for Israel this evening, he dropped by an event hosted by the First Lady to tell her bye and to get a kiss for the road.
  • When is a pay rise not a pay rise?

    But government sources said the latest earnings figures did not accurately represent real terms wage growth in the economy because they included one-off payments to NHS staff and other public sector workers as part of pay deals agreed earlier this year. They argued that if bonus payments were stripped out of the figures, underlying pay rose by about 7.8 per cent rather than the headline rate of 8.5 per cent.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1eb691a-6d29-11ee-b0f3-053d83492f27?shareToken=a5d8177319940c561ed548c534058819
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    When is a pay rise not a pay rise?

    But government sources said the latest earnings figures did not accurately represent real terms wage growth in the economy because they included one-off payments to NHS staff and other public sector workers as part of pay deals agreed earlier this year. They argued that if bonus payments were stripped out of the figures, underlying pay rose by about 7.8 per cent rather than the headline rate of 8.5 per cent.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1eb691a-6d29-11ee-b0f3-053d83492f27?shareToken=a5d8177319940c561ed548c534058819

    Inflation unchanged at 6.7%.

    Finally government is restarting talks with the BMA too to try to end the strikes.

    BBC News - NHS strikes: Consultants and government to hold talks to try to end dispute
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67139110
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241

    When is a pay rise not a pay rise?

    But government sources said the latest earnings figures did not accurately represent real terms wage growth in the economy because they included one-off payments to NHS staff and other public sector workers as part of pay deals agreed earlier this year. They argued that if bonus payments were stripped out of the figures, underlying pay rose by about 7.8 per cent rather than the headline rate of 8.5 per cent.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1eb691a-6d29-11ee-b0f3-053d83492f27?shareToken=a5d8177319940c561ed548c534058819

    I'm not sure why that is a story. The monthly figures published are both earning including bonuses, and earnings excluding bonuses. It's routine.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035
    edited October 2023
    From the review, it seems to blame the housing crisis everything and everyone except the root cause - NIMBYs and the statist planning system.

    But that could of course be the Guardian reviewer seeing what he wanted to see.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Inflation sticks at 6.7%. Disappointing but driven by higher fuel costs. I think from my own personal experience these have now peaked and dropped back a few pennies a litre but I still broke the £100 barrier for a tank yesterday.

    The stickiness of inflation, along with the wage data, once again make you wonder if the Bank were right to pause interest rate increases. Their forward projections are definitely optimistic and Sunak's promise/pledge/whatever to cut inflation in half this year remains in the balance.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    edited October 2023

    When is a pay rise not a pay rise?

    But government sources said the latest earnings figures did not accurately represent real terms wage growth in the economy because they included one-off payments to NHS staff and other public sector workers as part of pay deals agreed earlier this year. They argued that if bonus payments were stripped out of the figures, underlying pay rose by about 7.8 per cent rather than the headline rate of 8.5 per cent.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1eb691a-6d29-11ee-b0f3-053d83492f27?shareToken=a5d8177319940c561ed548c534058819

    I'm not sure why that is a story. The monthly figures published are both earning including bonuses, and earnings excluding bonuses. It's routine.
    Agreed. At most the difference is a little larger than normal. Is the government concerned that wage increases at this level are not exactly compatible with the 2% inflation target? Or are they worried that everyone else seeing that too is driving up the rate of return on gilts, making our debt mountain ever more expensive? There were some comments from Hunt about this recently.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Why is there still a live debate here? Israel is being definitive and can’t now back down. They will know, the US will know. Biden will have to opine.

    It wasn’t Israel this time, but putting that much ordnance into that small a populated area means there is likely to be some sort of large, lethal mistake eventually.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    DavidL said:

    Inflation sticks at 6.7%. Disappointing but driven by higher fuel costs. I think from my own personal experience these have now peaked and dropped back a few pennies a litre but I still broke the £100 barrier for a tank yesterday.

    The stickiness of inflation, along with the wage data, once again make you wonder if the Bank were right to pause interest rate increases. Their forward projections are definitely optimistic and Sunak's promise/pledge/whatever to cut inflation in half this year remains in the balance.

    Core inflation fell slightly. Prices rose by 2% in October last year, so CPI should fall to close to 5% in October this year.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    edited October 2023
    Fishing said:

    From the review, it seems to blame the housing crisis everything and everyone except the root cause - NIMBYs and the statist planning system.

    But that could of course be the Guardian reviewer seeing what he wanted to see.
    I find the housing debate entertaining. The effort people put into trying to prove the problem isn’t that the population is rising faster than you build accommodation for said population…
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    First daylight photographs of the scene.
    Make of them what you will, but it doesn't look to have been a particularly large explosion - no crater.
    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714525590873575600
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Nigelb said:

    First daylight photographs of the scene.
    Make of them what you will, but it doesn't look to have been a particularly large explosion - no crater.
    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714525590873575600

    Are we expected to believe 500 people died in that area? Or is there more damage elsewhere (e.g. it set off a fire in the hospital)?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    The IDF drone footage matches the scene - so that was not a lie.
    https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1714526575058645290
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    A
    DavidL said:

    Inflation sticks at 6.7%. Disappointing but driven by higher fuel costs. I think from my own personal experience these have now peaked and dropped back a few pennies a litre but I still broke the £100 barrier for a tank yesterday.

    The stickiness of inflation, along with the wage data, once again make you wonder if the Bank were right to pause interest rate increases. Their forward projections are definitely optimistic and Sunak's promise/pledge/whatever to cut inflation in half this year remains in the balance.

    In the previous periods of high inflation, in various countries, inflation has never gone away easily.

    Getting inflation down has always required painful economic decisions. There is a reason a proportion of progressive rant about the IMF.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nigelb said:

    First daylight photographs of the scene.
    Make of them what you will, but it doesn't look to have been a particularly large explosion - no crater.
    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714525590873575600

    Are we expected to believe 500 people died in that area? Or is there more damage elsewhere (e.g. it set off a fire in the hospital)?
    Who knows ?
    I was sceptical of the precise claim when casualty figures were announced so soon after the blast - and it's a conveniently round number.

    But it has been widely reported that the immediate areas around all hospitals in Gaza have become extremely crowded in the last few days, as civilians have assumed they are places of relative safety.

    From the pieces of video published last night, there was a lot of fire accompanying the explosion, so high casualties wouldn't be a surprise.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Nigelb said:
    There is very little damage shown there - PIRA car bombs did more. Are we sure that is actually the site?

    It may seem gross, but there is little evidence of the blood and carnage of many people dying in such a fashion.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited October 2023
    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nigelb said:
    There is very little damage shown there - PIRA car bombs did more. Are we sure that is actually the site?

    It may seem gross, but there is little evidence of the blood and carnage of many people dying in such a fashion.
    There was a very large and intense fire (probably fuel) at what was very likely an extremely crowded site, A large number of casualties is quite credible (IMO, FWIW).
    As I said, I'm sceptical of the reported number from last night.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    It is, indeed, a bleak outlook

    OTOH England have probably the best footballer in the world in Jude Bellingham, even better than Mbappe, so there's that

    Hurry up please, it's time.

    Increasingly feeling as though this is how the world ends. Or at least, how it spirals into WW3.

    And just think, five more years and we might have hit the singularity, and digital immortality.
    Not with a whimper?

    "Good night, sweet ladies."
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Inflation sticks at 6.7%. Disappointing but driven by higher fuel costs. I think from my own personal experience these have now peaked and dropped back a few pennies a litre but I still broke the £100 barrier for a tank yesterday.

    The stickiness of inflation, along with the wage data, once again make you wonder if the Bank were right to pause interest rate increases. Their forward projections are definitely optimistic and Sunak's promise/pledge/whatever to cut inflation in half this year remains in the balance.

    Core inflation fell slightly. Prices rose by 2% in October last year, so CPI should fall to close to 5% in October this year.
    I would think all bets are off, if oil really spikes due to the Middle East, aren’t they?
  • So what has actually happened at this hospital? Blown up by the Israelis but no bomb crater. Blown up by an Islamic Jihad misfire but just a few burnt out cars in the car park. 500 dead, no 300 dead, no "casualties rising".

    We have video both of IJ firing rockets and one dipping off path and breaking apart. Broadcast live on Al Jazeera. We have Wild Claims of an Israeli massacre and collapsing buildings - but the buildings are intact. And the morning after images show a load of burnt out cars (and not an EV in sight...) and minimal damage.

    So - IJ rocket misfires and breaks up in mid air. Flaming debris is seen falling. And we have an obvious large fire in a car park next to the hospital. So....
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    BMA were tweeting at the weekend. Got the begging bowl out for donations to the strike fund.

    The tweets were not well received :wink:
  • I sadly disagree with the header. It is pretty obvious how it ends. Badly.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    biggles said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Inflation sticks at 6.7%. Disappointing but driven by higher fuel costs. I think from my own personal experience these have now peaked and dropped back a few pennies a litre but I still broke the £100 barrier for a tank yesterday.

    The stickiness of inflation, along with the wage data, once again make you wonder if the Bank were right to pause interest rate increases. Their forward projections are definitely optimistic and Sunak's promise/pledge/whatever to cut inflation in half this year remains in the balance.

    Core inflation fell slightly. Prices rose by 2% in October last year, so CPI should fall to close to 5% in October this year.
    I would think all bets are off, if oil really spikes due to the Middle East, aren’t they?
    I think it depends how much of that in particular feeds into manufacturing costs . Next month a new cap comes in so that should help lower inflation and against that fuel prices so it’s going to be a close run thing as to what happens with the inflation rate.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    So what has actually happened at this hospital? Blown up by the Israelis but no bomb crater. Blown up by an Islamic Jihad misfire but just a few burnt out cars in the car park. 500 dead, no 300 dead, no "casualties rising".

    We have video both of IJ firing rockets and one dipping off path and breaking apart. Broadcast live on Al Jazeera. We have Wild Claims of an Israeli massacre and collapsing buildings - but the buildings are intact. And the morning after images show a load of burnt out cars (and not an EV in sight...) and minimal damage.

    So - IJ rocket misfires and breaks up in mid air. Flaming debris is seen falling. And we have an obvious large fire in a car park next to the hospital. So....

    But Leon said it was deifinitely a massive Israeli missle.

    If you read back on some of the claims made last night and then look at the actual scene there is definitely something amiss.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Along with Persia and Vietnam, one of the USA's biggest foreign policy mistakes between WWII and 1960.

    How the U.S. Issued its First Ever Order to Assassinate a Foreign Leader
    A snub from the White House, a controversial stay at Blair House, an encounter with Dave Chappelle’s mother and a CIA-arranged tryst — what happened when Congo’s beleaguered leader visited D.C. in 1960.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/17/patrice-lumumba-congo-washington-00121755
  • Fishing said:

    From the review, it seems to blame the housing crisis everything and everyone except the root cause - NIMBYs and the statist planning system.

    But that could of course be the Guardian reviewer seeing what he wanted to see.
    Or more likely you believing what you want to believe irrespective of the facts.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    One key demand of the BMA is restoration of pay board independence. The current "independent" pay board is stuffed with government lackeys with no staffing representation.

    The original pay board terms of reference did include comparison with salaries in similar industries and also look at retention issues.

    The government is refusing to talk about pay, which is what the dispute is about, so unless they are willing to disguise pay in other ways (such as tuition fee remission while in NHS jobs perhaps) I don't expect the talks to last long.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    biggles said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Inflation sticks at 6.7%. Disappointing but driven by higher fuel costs. I think from my own personal experience these have now peaked and dropped back a few pennies a litre but I still broke the £100 barrier for a tank yesterday.

    The stickiness of inflation, along with the wage data, once again make you wonder if the Bank were right to pause interest rate increases. Their forward projections are definitely optimistic and Sunak's promise/pledge/whatever to cut inflation in half this year remains in the balance.

    Core inflation fell slightly. Prices rose by 2% in October last year, so CPI should fall to close to 5% in October this year.
    I would think all bets are off, if oil really spikes due to the Middle East, aren’t they?
    It should not affect the October numbers.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    So what has actually happened at this hospital? Blown up by the Israelis but no bomb crater. Blown up by an Islamic Jihad misfire but just a few burnt out cars in the car park. 500 dead, no 300 dead, no "casualties rising".

    We have video both of IJ firing rockets and one dipping off path and breaking apart. Broadcast live on Al Jazeera. We have Wild Claims of an Israeli massacre and collapsing buildings - but the buildings are intact. And the morning after images show a load of burnt out cars (and not an EV in sight...) and minimal damage.

    So - IJ rocket misfires and breaks up in mid air. Flaming debris is seen falling. And we have an obvious large fire in a car park next to the hospital. So....

    But Leon said it was deifinitely a massive Israeli missle.

    If you read back on some of the claims made last night and then look at the actual scene there is definitely something amiss.
    Something about the truth and getting its boots on…
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    Taz said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
    My first job on finance was £31k per year and about 60-70 hours per week working. I didn't go on strike.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    One key demand of the BMA is restoration of pay board independence. The current "independent" pay board is stuffed with government lackeys with no staffing representation.

    The original pay board terms of reference did include comparison with salaries in similar industries and also look at retention issues.

    The government is refusing to talk about pay, which is what the dispute is about, so unless they are willing to disguise pay in other ways (such as tuition fee remission while in NHS jobs perhaps) I don't expect the talks to last long.
    To be fair, no one who has ever really read the pay board reports would call them Government lackeys. Much less anyone who’s met them.

    One can argue against the constraints placed on its conclusions, and that Government should be forced to actively reject a claim post-recommendation and then drop it down to hit fiscal targets, but no Government, and no Opposition that thinks it might become the Government, will go for that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
    My first job on finance was £31k per year and about 60-70 hours per week working. I didn't go on strike.
    Good money for 1836…
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
    My first job on finance was £31k per year and about 60-70 hours per week working. I didn't go on strike.
    It’s not the medics fault you accepted a silly deal.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    edited October 2023
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
    My first job on finance was £31k per year and about 60-70 hours per week working. I didn't go on strike.
    It is hard to see where the Junior Doctors or RMT strikes go as both are political as well as having other motives. Especially when the BMA says they would not settle in England for what they settled for in Wales or Scotland.

    I lost all sympathy for the RMT when they went on strike at the last weekend before Xmas with the impact it had on hospitality and other businesses who had struggled through COVID. Fuck the RMT

    ASLEF is purely about the money. Consultants too, although their main demand earlier this year was increasing the amount you can put into a pension pot in a year and increasing the lifetime allowance. Hunt caved on that.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Taz said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
    It’s more meaningful when you’re 25 than the pension component (worth about 25-30% on top for them btw). I also have some sympathy for being a doctor (or indeed being a nurse) being a yucky job I wouldn’t want to do (seeing all that blood and guts) and having a case (certainly early on when you have to do a bit of everything) for the same sort of “x factor” we assume for the military.

    But as I say, I think their union has made some big errors and they can’t have 30%.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    biggles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
    My first job on finance was £31k per year and about 60-70 hours per week working. I didn't go on strike.
    It’s not the medics fault you accepted a silly deal.
    I paid my dues, two years ago my wife and I bought a 5 bedroom house in Fortis Green and I only work 35-40h per week now.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558
    biggles said:

    Why is there still a live debate here? Israel is being definitive and can’t now back down. They will know, the US will know. Biden will have to opine.

    It wasn’t Israel this time, but putting that much ordnance into that small a populated area means there is likely to be some sort of large, lethal mistake eventually.

    Firing that much ordnance at Israel from highly populated neighbourhoods where as many as a third of the rockets don't make their target means there is likely to be some sort of large, lethal mistake eventually.

    Not that Hamas care.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    biggles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
    My first job on finance was £31k per year and about 60-70 hours per week working. I didn't go on strike.
    It’s not the medics fault you accepted a silly deal.
    What was silly about it ? Does Max regret it or has his career worked out rather well.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    MaxPB said:

    biggles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
    My first job on finance was £31k per year and about 60-70 hours per week working. I didn't go on strike.
    It’s not the medics fault you accepted a silly deal.
    I paid my dues, two years ago my wife and I bought a 5 bedroom house in Fortis Green and I only work 35-40h per week now.
    Yup. But you won’t get the excess 30 hours a week back from when you were younger. We all make our choices.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    Roger said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Mark Urban
    @MarkUrban01
    ·
    1h
    Following the shocking Gaza hospital blast:
    - Palestinian Authority leader pulls out of mtg with Biden
    - Jordan then cancels the summit
    - violence across the West Bank
    - Hezbollah in Lebanon calls for a ‘day of rage’ on Wednesday,
    That’s the crisis President Biden flies into

    I wonder if Hizbollah will attack tomorrow. The NYT has reported they will only go for it if morally pressured by insane numbers of Gazan dead (eg over 10,000). But a single toll in one blast of 500-1000 might do it, too

    Lordy, this is a wobbly moment for the world
    So where are we with the who-did-it speculation? (Sorry, just got in and am catching up.)
    80% chance it was Israeli but 100% chance it makes no difference either way. It is Israel who are bombing Gaza so the world is going to blame Israel whether it was one of their rockets or a Hamas firework that went feebly wrong.
    On what basis apart from your inherent prejudice are you saying 80% Israeli?

    And the world will not blame Israel if they have evidence it wasn’t them. But you will
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    biggles said:

    MaxPB said:

    biggles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    It’s encouraging that some deal might be reached with consultants but what about junior doctors.

    Won’t this just wind them up even more if consultants get an increase and they don’t .

    Agree.

    Also, I have to say I was quite dismissive of the union docs’ claim, reacting to nonsense like the “minimum wage” claims, and then I looked in to what they are actually paid on graduating. Now, if they hang around and pass some exams they will be doing well after a few years, but currently they don’t compare well to similarly experienced and skilled grads.

    I think that’s the argument the BMA should have made. Compared themselves to engineers, architects, and even civil servants.
    The Union has already said it won't settle for the same deal it settled with in the devolved authorities so what exactly do they want. They won't get 35%

    I am an Engineer. When I first got my qualifications my salary was relatively low too and I did not get the same level of pension or holidays they get.

    A salary is only a part of the package an employee gets.
    My first job on finance was £31k per year and about 60-70 hours per week working. I didn't go on strike.
    It’s not the medics fault you accepted a silly deal.
    I paid my dues, two years ago my wife and I bought a 5 bedroom house in Fortis Green and I only work 35-40h per week now.
    Yup. But you won’t get the excess 30 hours a week back from when you were younger. We all make our choices.
    Eh I'm still in my 30s and being Indian I know about zillion doctors who are around my age and believe me, they aren't driving around in Porches and Maseratis worrying about what they did in their 20s.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    So what has actually happened at this hospital? Blown up by the Israelis but no bomb crater. Blown up by an Islamic Jihad misfire but just a few burnt out cars in the car park. 500 dead, no 300 dead, no "casualties rising".

    We have video both of IJ firing rockets and one dipping off path and breaking apart. Broadcast live on Al Jazeera. We have Wild Claims of an Israeli massacre and collapsing buildings - but the buildings are intact. And the morning after images show a load of burnt out cars (and not an EV in sight...) and minimal damage.

    So - IJ rocket misfires and breaks up in mid air. Flaming debris is seen falling. And we have an obvious large fire in a car park next to the hospital. So....

    But Leon said it was deifinitely a massive Israeli missle.

    If you read back on some of the claims made last night and then look at the actual scene there is definitely something amiss.
    I don't think many here consider Leon as being a reliable news source.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,705
    QTWTAIN?

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    3m
    Today is going to represent a defining moment for a lot of people and a lot of organisations. Weight of evidence now clearly supports theory hospital bombing was result of Hamas rocket. Will we see admissions of error, and unequivocal condemnation of Hamas?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    biggles said:

    Why is there still a live debate here? Israel is being definitive and can’t now back down. They will know, the US will know. Biden will have to opine.

    It wasn’t Israel this time, but putting that much ordnance into that small a populated area means there is likely to be some sort of large, lethal mistake eventually.

    Firing that much ordnance at Israel from highly populated neighbourhoods where as many as a third of the rockets don't make their target means there is likely to be some sort of large, lethal mistake eventually.

    Not that Hamas care.
    Oh absolutely. I’ll always be with Israel over its enemies. I’ll just hold it to the same standards we hold ourselves, and expect it to react to any errors as we would. And to be fair, I think it mostly does.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    After a bit of reflection and initially thinking it was the IDF I've come to the conclusion this morning it was probably a misfire from a Gaza actor.

    Passed through Darnall this morning this morning - looks like Palestine is set to win the by-election there.
This discussion has been closed.