Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Boring but good and stable – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited October 2023 in General
Boring but good and stable – politicalbetting.com

We asked 2,000 people to give us one word to describe Keir Starmer.#Lab23 pic.twitter.com/Nx7pirXJ7J

Read the full story here

«134567

Comments

  • First like Starmer?
  • Can we trust a word cloud that misspells competent (left-hand side, above idiot)?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    First like Starmer?

    No, you're rarely boring.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Can we trust a word cloud that misspells competent (left-hand side, above idiot)?

    Probably ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Fifth rate LotO security detail.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    FPT:

    That Luton airport carpark fire looks bad.

    https://x.com/bbcbreaking/status/1711859661387747571

    Will be interesting to discover the cause. I don’t think the cause of the Liverpool car park fire was identified.
  • Surpised at the number of people who can't spell competent.
  • Can we trust a word cloud that misspells competent (left-hand side, above idiot)?

    Apologies, John, you got there before me.

    Oddly, incompetent has been spelt correctly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    Surpised at the number of people who can't spell competent.

    It’s principle and principal that gets my goat. But I agree competent is not one of the hard ones.
  • Can we trust a word cloud that misspells competent (left-hand side, above idiot)?

    Apologies, John, you got there before me.

    Oddly, incompetent has been spelt correctly.
    So literate people can see he's incompetent, but illiterate fools have been convinced into thinking he's competent?
  • Can we trust a word cloud that misspells competent (left-hand side, above idiot)?

    Apologies, John, you got there before me.

    Oddly, incompetent has been spelt correctly.
    So literate people can see he's incompetent, but illiterate fools have been convinced into thinking he's competent?
    You'd have to think that, Bart.
  • DavidL said:

    Surpised at the number of people who can't spell competent.

    It’s principle and principal that gets my goat. But I agree competent is not one of the hard ones.
    I do at least have to think about that one, DL, but i do get it right. Where I once lived in Wanstead we had an Estate Agency that called itsef 'Principle Homes'.

    You'd think that somebody would have checked before registering the title.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    @TSE spot on.

    Even my lifelong tory voting friend in Surrey has become very relaxed about Starmer as PM. She shrugs her shoulders and is okay with it.

    And if you think about it, that's quite an achievement. To have many moderate Conservatives accepting of PM Starmer is one hell of a shift from those days under Jeremy Corbyn.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,372
    DavidL said:

    Surpised at the number of people who can't spell competent.

    It’s principle and principal that gets my goat. But I agree competent is not one of the hard ones.
    Principals are good at getting people's goats.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited October 2023
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    That Luton airport carpark fire looks bad.

    https://x.com/bbcbreaking/status/1711859661387747571

    Will be interesting to discover the cause. I don’t think the cause of the Liverpool car park fire was identified.
    All flights now suspended until at least midday. The car park, which only recently opened, is said to have partially collapsed.

    https://x.com/ldnlutonairport/status/1711932148318401003?s=61

    I’ll leave the investigation to the fire brigade, but Twitter has very much already decided what type of car was involved in the incident.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,372
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    That Luton airport carpark fire looks bad.

    https://x.com/bbcbreaking/status/1711859661387747571

    Will be interesting to discover the cause. I don’t think the cause of the Liverpool car park fire was identified.
    All flights now suspended until at least midday. The car park, which only recently opened, is said to have partially collapsed.

    https://x.com/ldnlutonairport/status/1711932148318401003?s=61

    I’ll leave the investigation to the fire brigade, but Twitter has very much already decided what type of car was involved in the incident.
    Twitter also very much decided what Clarkson's superinjunction was about.
  • DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    Even his comment yesterday that this is why the party had to change, power rather than protest shows that ruthlessness. He is utterly focused on winning power and shows comparatively little interest in what to do with it. A bit like Sunak and May in that respect.

    I don’t have much expectation that he will be a good PM but I am very confident that he will be our next one. We all just have to hope that he surprises on the upside.

    I don't think conservatives (even in the small c sense) can really call out others for ruthlessness in attaining and retaining power. Especially after the last decade.

    As for the Corbyn-Blair question, was there a point where Jez crossed the line from "stupidly left but with the bounds of plausibility" to "unambiguously unacceptably wrong"?

    I'd say his response to the antisemitism report and refusal to even do a Father Jack "I'm really sorry" apology crossed a line.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,372

    Fishing said:

    Boring and useless I can see, but anybody who thinks Starmer is honest or has integrity simply hasn't been paying attention, after the way he sucked up to Corbyn and his supporters for years then ditched them because it was in his electoral interests to do so.

    Just as lawyers make whatever argument suits their case at any moment, even if it contradicts what they said last week. That's a profession that makes prostitutes or journalists look honest by comparison. And of course great training for dishonest, weathervane politics - it's obviously no coincidence that Blair and Clinton were both lawyers.

    It's projection.

    People are projecting onto Starmer what they want to be true.
    They do that with all politicians.

    One thing to remember about Starmer is, given his age, he's unlikely to want to serve more then 4-5 years as PM if he wins.

    So he may be in any case a transitory PM that people still project onto all the way through his premiership.

    (Remarkable to think he's only eight years younger than Blair and actually older than Cameron.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    A
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    That Luton airport carpark fire looks bad.

    https://x.com/bbcbreaking/status/1711859661387747571

    Will be interesting to discover the cause. I don’t think the cause of the Liverpool car park fire was identified.
    All flights now suspended until at least midday. The car park, which only recently opened, is said to have partially collapsed.

    https://x.com/ldnlutonairport/status/1711932148318401003?s=61

    I’ll leave the investigation to the fire brigade, but Twitter has very much already decided what type of car was involved in the incident.
    Twitter also very much decided what Clarkson's superinjunction was about.
    His pact with Shado* Government of Trans Woke Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs to reduce all speed limits to 20mph, right?

    *Deliberate spelling
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,372

    DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    Even his comment yesterday that this is why the party had to change, power rather than protest shows that ruthlessness. He is utterly focused on winning power and shows comparatively little interest in what to do with it. A bit like Sunak and May in that respect.

    I don’t have much expectation that he will be a good PM but I am very confident that he will be our next one. We all just have to hope that he surprises on the upside.

    I don't think conservatives (even in the small c sense) can really call out others for ruthlessness in attaining and retaining power. Especially after the last decade.

    As for the Corbyn-Blair question, was there a point where Jez crossed the line from "stupidly left but with the bounds of plausibility" to "unambiguously unacceptably wrong"?

    I'd say his response to the antisemitism report and refusal to even do a Father Jack "I'm really sorry" apology crossed a line.
    Salisbury was what stripped his reputation bare, but the antisemitism crisis cemented him as somebody stuck in a particularly nasty past.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    edited October 2023

    DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    Even his comment yesterday that this is why the party had to change, power rather than protest shows that ruthlessness. He is utterly focused on winning power and shows comparatively little interest in what to do with it. A bit like Sunak and May in that respect.

    I don’t have much expectation that he will be a good PM but I am very confident that he will be our next one. We all just have to hope that he surprises on the upside.

    I don't think conservatives (even in the small c sense) can really call out others for ruthlessness in attaining and retaining power. Especially after the last decade.

    As for the Corbyn-Blair question, was there a point where Jez crossed the line from "stupidly left but with the bounds of plausibility" to "unambiguously unacceptably wrong"?

    I'd say his response to the antisemitism report and refusal to even do a Father Jack "I'm really sorry" apology crossed a line.
    I agree about the Tories. That’s why I mentioned Sunak and May. Boris and Truss at least had specific plans about some things, right or wrong. Brown was similar too. He was desperate to be PM without any clear idea of what to do with it.

    None of these suggest that this is a good starting point for a PM.


    Edit and was Corbyn’s response to anti semitism any worse than inviting IRA terrorists to the Houses of Parliament?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Surpised at the number of people who can't spell competent.

    It’s principle and principal that gets my goat. But I agree competent is not one of the hard ones.
    Principals are good at getting people's goats.
    At least in principle, yes.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    Even his comment yesterday that this is why the party had to change, power rather than protest shows that ruthlessness. He is utterly focused on winning power and shows comparatively little interest in what to do with it. A bit like Sunak and May in that respect.

    I don’t have much expectation that he will be a good PM but I am very confident that he will be our next one. We all just have to hope that he surprises on the upside.

    I don't think conservatives (even in the small c sense) can really call out others for ruthlessness in attaining and retaining power. Especially after the last decade.

    As for the Corbyn-Blair question, was there a point where Jez crossed the line from "stupidly left but with the bounds of plausibility" to "unambiguously unacceptably wrong"?

    I'd say his response to the antisemitism report and refusal to even do a Father Jack "I'm really sorry" apology crossed a line.
    Salisbury was what stripped his reputation bare, but the antisemitism crisis cemented him as somebody stuck in a particularly nasty past.
    His problem is a function of the doctrine of “punching up” - Muslims and Palestinians can’t be racist. Criticising their beliefs is also out.

    So Raed Salah is a wonderful human being.

    At the same time, all Jews are a privileged group. Therefore it is impossible to be racist against them, for a Sacred Person*

    *Anyone touched by Real Socialism or is Oppressed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    I am no Starmer fan, and even less a Streeting fan, but Mrs Foxy is. After yesterday's speech Labour has her vote.

    I live on one of the 7 Tory held seats with a large majority in Leics that encircle the city. On current polling some of these turn improbably red. I will wait for the candidates flyers before deciding but really hard to see the seat as other than Tory hold.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    One of the funny things (in fact, the only funny thing) from the debates about Hamas and Israel on here recently has been the posters - invariably from the left - who try to deny or dismiss the experience of Jews in the Middle East, both today and in the past.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    ydoethur said:

    Fishing said:

    Boring and useless I can see, but anybody who thinks Starmer is honest or has integrity simply hasn't been paying attention, after the way he sucked up to Corbyn and his supporters for years then ditched them because it was in his electoral interests to do so.

    Just as lawyers make whatever argument suits their case at any moment, even if it contradicts what they said last week. That's a profession that makes prostitutes or journalists look honest by comparison. And of course great training for dishonest, weathervane politics - it's obviously no coincidence that Blair and Clinton were both lawyers.

    It's projection.

    People are projecting onto Starmer what they want to be true.
    They do that with all politicians.

    One thing to remember about Starmer is, given his age, he's unlikely to want to serve more then 4-5 years as PM if he wins.

    So he may be in any case a transitory PM that people still project onto all the way through his premiership.

    (Remarkable to think he's only eight years younger than Blair and actually older than Cameron.)
    Still wet behind the ears for US politics.

    Starmer looks in good health, and will do two terms I expect. The next Labour leader may not even be in Parliament yet.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    One of the funny things (in fact, the only funny thing) from the debates about Hamas and Israel on here recently has been the posters - invariably from the left - who try to deny or dismiss the experience of Jews in the Middle East, both today and in the past.

    Denying the existence of Jews in the Middle East is like Flat Earthing or Holocaust denial. It’s for slackers.

    Real Conspiracy Nuts (TM) deny stuff like Australia. Or the existence of Arabs in the Middle East.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
    I would use the word "erratic" if had to choose a single word for a word cloud.

    All politicians need to change and adapt, but Sunak seems to rip up long-standing policies on a whim, based on a Coke fueled night with his spreadsheets.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited October 2023

    One of the funny things (in fact, the only funny thing) from the debates about Hamas and Israel on here recently has been the posters - invariably from the left - who try to deny or dismiss the experience of Jews in the Middle East, both today and in the past.

    Denying the existence of Jews in the Middle East is like Flat Earthing or Holocaust denial. It’s for slackers.

    Real Conspiracy Nuts (TM) deny stuff like Australia. Or the existence of Arabs in the Middle East.
    Or the existence of a Palestinian people.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    edited October 2023
    Foxy said:

    I am no Starmer fan, and even less a Streeting fan, but Mrs Foxy is. After yesterday's speech Labour has her vote.

    I live on one of the 7 Tory held seats with a large majority in Leics that encircle the city. On current polling some of these turn improbably red. I will wait for the candidates flyers before deciding but really hard to see the seat as other than Tory hold.

    For Labour to win any of the 7 (including South Leicestershire) will require those previously Tory voters who are currently telling the pollsters (if asked) that they don't know how they will vote to either stay at home or vote for the Lib Dems or Reform. Getting Tory voters to actually vote Labour in sufficient numbers is a big ask.

    I was in Mid Beds yesterday - poster counts 1st: Lib Dem; 2nd: Labour; 3rd: Reform - Not a single Tory poster or stake board.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Foxy said:

    One of the funny things (in fact, the only funny thing) from the debates about Hamas and Israel on here recently has been the posters - invariably from the left - who try to deny or dismiss the experience of Jews in the Middle East, both today and in the past.

    Denying the existence of Jews in the Middle East is like Flat Earthing or Holocaust denial. It’s for slackers.

    Real Conspiracy Nuts (TM) deny stuff like Australia. Or the existence of Arabs in the Middle East.
    Or the existence of a Palestinian people.
    That’s for slackers as well. So boring and derivative.

    Proper RCN deny the existence of Saudi Arabia.
  • Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Smash the monopoly/oligopoly of house builders by moving away from our current convoluted planning system which grants entire estates to a single developer to build who can turn on or off construction at will to deliberately manage prices.

    Instead move to a Japanese-style system where if land is zoned for housing anyone can build on it without asking any permission first from neighbours or Council or anyone else since permission has already been granted via it being in the right zone.

    In the UK an oligopoly constructs identikit houses. Over there they get built a house at the time and not all uniform, as each plot can be built based on the owners demands instead of what makes life profitable/easy for the developer.

    Oh and switch taxation to an LVT that taxes land the same whether its developed or not, so that anyone banking land is paying the same taxes as anyone who lives in a home.
  • Foxy said:

    One of the funny things (in fact, the only funny thing) from the debates about Hamas and Israel on here recently has been the posters - invariably from the left - who try to deny or dismiss the experience of Jews in the Middle East, both today and in the past.

    Denying the existence of Jews in the Middle East is like Flat Earthing or Holocaust denial. It’s for slackers.

    Real Conspiracy Nuts (TM) deny stuff like Australia. Or the existence of Arabs in the Middle East.
    Or the existence of a Palestinian people.
    All sorts of people exist, Kurds for instance exist.

    A Palestinian state does not, solely because of the actions of Egypt and Transjordan in 1948.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
    I would use the word "erratic" if had to choose a single word for a word cloud.

    All politicians need to change and adapt, but Sunak seems to rip up long-standing policies on a whim, based on a Coke fueled night with his spreadsheets.
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
    I would use the word "erratic" if had to choose a single word for a word cloud.

    All politicians need to change and adapt, but Sunak seems to rip up long-standing policies on a whim, based on a Coke fueled night with his spreadsheets.
    “Erratic” seems a reasonable choice to me. It comes from a degree of arrogance and a lack of principles that he would no doubt describe as pragmatic.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
    Not in a good way, but obviously yes.
  • DavidL said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
    I normally agree with you on most things but couldn't disagree with you more there.

    The housing crisis and chronic housing shortage is the biggest crisis in this country today. For SKS to alight on this as his big idea shows he understands what is a real problem in a way Sunak and the Tories have failed to do since the modest planning reforms Boris intended were rejected.

    If anything, SKS deserves criticism not because the 300k per annum target is too challenging, but that it's far too modest.

    Even with 300k a year, with population growth continuing that is not going to make a dent in our housing shortage.

    France has the same population as us and 13 million extra homes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited October 2023
    Icarus said:

    Foxy said:

    I am no Starmer fan, and even less a Streeting fan, but Mrs Foxy is. After yesterday's speech Labour has her vote.

    I live on one of the 7 Tory held seats with a large majority in Leics that encircle the city. On current polling some of these turn improbably red. I will wait for the candidates flyers before deciding but really hard to see the seat as other than Tory hold.

    For Labour to win any of the 7 (including South Leicestershire) will require those previously Tory voters who are currently telling the pollsters (if asked) that they don't know how they will vote to either stay at home or vote for the Lib Dems or Reform. Getting Tory voters to actually vote Labour in sufficient numbers is a big ask.

    I was in Mid Beds yesterday - poster counts 1st: Lib Dem; 2nd: Labour; 3rd: Reform - Not a single Tory poster or stake board.
    On the new boundaries 5 of the 8 Leicsestershire seats are Labour gains on current polling:

    Harborough, Oadby and Wigston
    Mid Leics
    Melton and Syston
    Loughborough
    NW Leics

    Tory Hold in

    Hinckley and Bosworth
    South Leicestershire
    Rutland and Stamford (contains a lot of East Leics, so 8 rather than 7 seats on old boundaries)

    Even these seats are surprisingly close for Labour, with Rutland and Stamford less than 5,000 Tory majority.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/bdy2023_emids_summary.html

    This is why Mid Beds is interesting as a 3 way fight. Can Labour really win in true blue Shire seats, where Lib Dems are also plausible?

    Personally, with the strong council presence in both Harborough and O and W, I would think LD should be a LD target.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
    Not in a good way, but obviously yes.
    In this word cloud for Sunak, 'Boring' doesn't even appear:
    image
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993

    DavidL said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
    I normally agree with you on most things but couldn't disagree with you more there.

    The housing crisis and chronic housing shortage is the biggest crisis in this country today. For SKS to alight on this as his big idea shows he understands what is a real problem in a way Sunak and the Tories have failed to do since the modest planning reforms Boris intended were rejected.

    If anything, SKS deserves criticism not because the 300k per annum target is too challenging, but that it's far too modest.

    Even with 300k a year, with population growth continuing that is not going to make a dent in our housing shortage.

    France has the same population as us and 13 million extra homes.
    Wishing for 300k houses a year won't make it happen!!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    Icarus said:

    DavidL said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
    I normally agree with you on most things but couldn't disagree with you more there.

    The housing crisis and chronic housing shortage is the biggest crisis in this country today. For SKS to alight on this as his big idea shows he understands what is a real problem in a way Sunak and the Tories have failed to do since the modest planning reforms Boris intended were rejected.

    If anything, SKS deserves criticism not because the 300k per annum target is too challenging, but that it's far too modest.

    Even with 300k a year, with population growth continuing that is not going to make a dent in our housing shortage.

    France has the same population as us and 13 million extra homes.
    Wishing for 300k houses a year won't make it happen!!
    Planning reform to solves issues that stop the properties being built will go a long way to help things.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    The audio recording was fake.

    I find it bizarre that you seem unbothered as to whether it “was fake or not”! Does truth not matter any more? It was fake and I fail to see any evidence that Starmer is difficult to work for.
    Really? Do you have a link?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051

    A

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    That Luton airport carpark fire looks bad.

    https://x.com/bbcbreaking/status/1711859661387747571

    Will be interesting to discover the cause. I don’t think the cause of the Liverpool car park fire was identified.
    All flights now suspended until at least midday. The car park, which only recently opened, is said to have partially collapsed.

    https://x.com/ldnlutonairport/status/1711932148318401003?s=61

    I’ll leave the investigation to the fire brigade, but Twitter has very much already decided what type of car was involved in the incident.
    Twitter also very much decided what Clarkson's superinjunction was about.
    His pact with Shado* Government of Trans Woke Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs to reduce all speed limits to 20mph, right?

    *Deliberate spelling


    ???
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    .

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    The problem has been, in part, granting local monopolies to big house builders. If one company is building the big estate, then turning off house building becomes an option.

    Constraining supply like this, to protect prices, is one of the reasons that economists, since *before* Adam Smith, considered monopolies bad for the public interest.
    I suspect the reason we'll here few details of the policy before the election is that (assuming it's carried through) it will mean major planning changes - and government / local government acquisition of significant tracts of land.

    Giving too many clues about what you intend to purchase, a year or more before the event, would be sub-optimal.

    I'd guess there's a not unreasonable chance of getting somewhere near their objective, if they are really serious about it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
    Not in a good way, but obviously yes.
    In this word cloud for Sunak, 'Boring' doesn't even appear:
    image
    This is a word cloud for those who find a single word too difficult a concept?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    The audio recording was fake.

    I find it bizarre that you seem unbothered as to whether it “was fake or not”! Does truth not matter any more? It was fake and I fail to see any evidence that Starmer is difficult to work for.
    Really? Do you have a link?
    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-faces-political-attack-after-deepfake-audio-is-posted-of-sir-keir-starmer-12980181
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,130

    DavidL said:

    Surpised at the number of people who can't spell competent.

    It’s principle and principal that gets my goat. But I agree competent is not one of the hard ones.
    I do at least have to think about that one, DL, but i do get it right. Where I once lived in Wanstead we had an Estate Agency that called itsef 'Principle Homes'.

    You'd think that somebody would have checked before registering the title.
    Well, "Ideal Homes" was already taken :-)
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    Following on from Simon Jenkins article about how bad the new housebuilding proposed by Labour will be once again the Guardian looks at it from a negative perspective.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-wants-to-build-1-5m-homes-but-how-green-will-they-be/ar-AA1hZQIH?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=a73257a4c65d4bb491a3a7787691098c&ei=8
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,408
    Icarus said:

    Foxy said:

    I am no Starmer fan, and even less a Streeting fan, but Mrs Foxy is. After yesterday's speech Labour has her vote.

    I live on one of the 7 Tory held seats with a large majority in Leics that encircle the city. On current polling some of these turn improbably red. I will wait for the candidates flyers before deciding but really hard to see the seat as other than Tory hold.

    For Labour to win any of the 7 (including South Leicestershire) will require those previously Tory voters who are currently telling the pollsters (if asked) that they don't know how they will vote to either stay at home or vote for the Lib Dems or Reform. Getting Tory voters to actually vote Labour in sufficient numbers is a big ask.

    I was in Mid Beds yesterday - poster counts 1st: Lib Dem; 2nd: Labour; 3rd: Reform - Not a single Tory poster or stake board.
    Poster counts mean nothing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited October 2023
    Nigelb said:

    The responsibility for Hamas's action lies entirely with Hamas - but this Israeli editorial calls out Netanyahu as an enabler.

    https://www.haaretz.com/ty-WRITER/0000017f-da25-d42c-afff-dff7a1c10000
    ...His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas.

    “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”..

    Divide and Conquer is an old strategy.

    The 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are the next target, but will be in smaller open prisons than Gaza, isolated from each other.

    Israel has systematically prevented non-violent resistance too, and marginalised the moderates on the Palestinian Authority.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079
    DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    Even his comment yesterday that this is why the party had to change, power rather than protest shows that ruthlessness. He is utterly focused on winning power and shows comparatively little interest in what to do with it. A bit like Sunak and May in that respect.

    I don’t have much expectation that he will be a good PM but I am very confident that he will be our next one. We all just have to hope that he surprises on the upside.

    I don't think the Blair tolerating Corbyn point is really applicable. Back then he was just a crank unknown to most people, whereas for Starmer he was a giant millstone around his neck.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    The problem has been, in part, granting local monopolies to big house builders. If one company is building the big estate, then turning off house building becomes an option.

    Constraining supply like this, to protect prices, is one of the reasons that economists, since *before* Adam Smith, considered monopolies bad for the public interest.
    I suspect the reason we'll here few details of the policy before the election is that (assuming it's carried through) it will mean major planning changes - and government / local government acquisition of significant tracts of land.

    Giving too many clues about what you intend to purchase, a year or more before the event, would be sub-optimal.

    I'd guess there's a not unreasonable chance of getting somewhere near their objective, if they are really serious about it.
    The housing supply chain is a system of queues. Which brings us to the much studied area of queuing theory.

    It is utterly certain that removing one constraint on supply will uncover another one. We have actually got planning permissions up. Local monopolies/oligopolies is one.

    What increasing housing supply requires is focus on the goal. Not focus on one part of the process.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,408
    Nigelb said:

    The responsibility for Hamas's action lies entirely with Hamas - but this Israeli editorial calls out Netanyahu as an enabler.

    https://www.haaretz.com/ty-WRITER/0000017f-da25-d42c-afff-dff7a1c10000
    ...His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas.

    “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”..

    It's more likely he enabled by appointing incompetent political cronies and lackies to key positions in the IDF and Mossad, who were asleep at the wheel.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    DavidL said:

    Surpised at the number of people who can't spell competent.

    It’s principle and principal that gets my goat. But I agree competent is not one of the hard ones.
    I was always taught to “never se-para-te a man from his parachute”
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    edited October 2023
    On home building:

    1) Abolish duties when sizing down, based on number of bedrooms. Increase duties on second homes, and hike council tax on STLs and empty homes.

    2) Adjust council tax so that detached houses pay significantly more than equivalent flats. Base it on footprint.

    3) No new estates that are more than a 15 minute walk from a primary school etc. If they are, the developer must leave space and infrastructure for public services to be later built by council

    4) Use the ONS map of rental percentages to identify where developers should be incentivised to built high density housing (cos it can't be as awful as what the landlords are providing): https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/tenure-of-household/hh-tenure-5a/private-rented-or-lives-rent-free



  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Icarus said:

    DavidL said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
    I normally agree with you on most things but couldn't disagree with you more there.

    The housing crisis and chronic housing shortage is the biggest crisis in this country today. For SKS to alight on this as his big idea shows he understands what is a real problem in a way Sunak and the Tories have failed to do since the modest planning reforms Boris intended were rejected.

    If anything, SKS deserves criticism not because the 300k per annum target is too challenging, but that it's far too modest.

    Even with 300k a year, with population growth continuing that is not going to make a dent in our housing shortage.

    France has the same population as us and 13 million extra homes.
    Wishing for 300k houses a year won't make it happen!!
    The only plausible solution to meet those numbers is mass building using government money, as was done in the 1950s and 60's for council houses. A long bear market in property with higher real term interest rates is not going to rev up private building.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    eek said:

    Icarus said:

    DavidL said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
    I normally agree with you on most things but couldn't disagree with you more there.

    The housing crisis and chronic housing shortage is the biggest crisis in this country today. For SKS to alight on this as his big idea shows he understands what is a real problem in a way Sunak and the Tories have failed to do since the modest planning reforms Boris intended were rejected.

    If anything, SKS deserves criticism not because the 300k per annum target is too challenging, but that it's far too modest.

    Even with 300k a year, with population growth continuing that is not going to make a dent in our housing shortage.

    France has the same population as us and 13 million extra homes.
    Wishing for 300k houses a year won't make it happen!!
    Planning reform to solves issues that stop the properties being built will go a long way to help things.
    But the builders have plenty of sites with approval already - They are stopping building - new houses are not selling because people can't afford the mortgages.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,138
    Morning all.

    I conclude from the last para that TSE is a lawyer.

    Cynical, moi?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    That Luton airport carpark fire looks bad.

    https://x.com/bbcbreaking/status/1711859661387747571

    Will be interesting to discover the cause. I don’t think the cause of the Liverpool car park fire was identified.
    All flights now suspended until at least midday. The car park, which only recently opened, is said to have partially collapsed.

    https://x.com/ldnlutonairport/status/1711932148318401003?s=61

    I’ll leave the investigation to the fire brigade, but Twitter has very much already decided what type of car was involved in the incident.
    I assume you're referring to electric cars.

    In which case, in a fire that large, there is likely to be at least one electric vehicle involved. Electric vehicle fires are a devil to put out: they may not initially burn as hot as ICE car fires, but they burn and burn, and are difficult to extinguish.

    Even if an electric car did not instigate the fire, the presence of electric cars would have made the fire burn longer, and make the firefighters' jobs mire difficult.

    (All AIUI, IANAE, obvs...)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    The audio recording was fake.

    I find it bizarre that you seem unbothered as to whether it “was fake or not”! Does truth not matter any more? It was fake and I fail to see any evidence that Starmer is difficult to work for.
    Really? Do you have a link?
    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-faces-political-attack-after-deepfake-audio-is-posted-of-sir-keir-starmer-
    12980181
    Thanks. I have been doing another trial this week and had missed that.

    There have however been a series of stories about staffers leaving the Labour Party with NDAs https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/21/top-barrister-accuses-labour-of-spin-over-ndas-gagging-ex-staff
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
    I would use the word "erratic" if had to choose a single word for a word cloud.

    All politicians need to change and adapt, but Sunak seems to rip up long-standing policies on a whim, based on a Coke fueled night with his spreadsheets.
    I'd choose desperate or unfocused.

    He's staring at a humiliating loss and whatever options he picks open him to attack by one wing of the party or another, so he tries to be both stable and revolutionary. He tries to be statesmanlike and a rabble router. He tries to be tough but also cuddly.

    It just confuses people.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079
    Heathener said:

    @TSE spot on.

    Even my lifelong tory voting friend in Surrey has become very relaxed about Starmer as PM. She shrugs her shoulders and is okay with it.

    And if you think about it, that's quite an achievement. To have many moderate Conservatives accepting of PM Starmer is one hell of a shift from those days under Jeremy Corbyn.

    He's not got personal baggage and he looks and sounds like a regular PM. That may in part be in why some dislike him, but it also means fearmongering attacks won't work. Who's going to fear what boring Starmer will do?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    The problem has been, in part, granting local monopolies to big house builders. If one company is building the big estate, then turning off house building becomes an option.

    Constraining supply like this, to protect prices, is one of the reasons that economists, since *before* Adam Smith, considered monopolies bad for the public interest.
    I suspect the reason we'll here few details of the policy before the election is that (assuming it's carried through) it will mean major planning changes - and government / local government acquisition of significant tracts of land.

    Giving too many clues about what you intend to purchase, a year or more before the event, would be sub-optimal.

    I'd guess there's a not unreasonable chance of getting somewhere near their objective, if they are really serious about it.
    The housing supply chain is a system of queues. Which brings us to the much studied area of queuing theory.

    It is utterly certain that removing one constraint on supply will uncover another one. We have actually got planning permissions up. Local monopolies/oligopolies is one.

    What increasing housing supply requires is focus on the goal. Not focus on one part of the process.
    Of course.
    I was just suggesting one reason you might hear little detail prior to the next election.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    The audio recording was fake.

    I find it bizarre that you seem unbothered as to whether it “was fake or not”! Does truth not matter any more? It was fake and I fail to see any evidence that Starmer is difficult to work for.
    Really? Do you have a link?
    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-faces-political-attack-after-deepfake-audio-is-posted-of-sir-keir-starmer-
    12980181
    Thanks. I have been doing another trial this week and had missed that.

    There have however been a series of stories about staffers leaving the Labour Party with NDAs https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/21/top-barrister-accuses-labour-of-spin-over-ndas-gagging-ex-staff
    There may be a number of reasons for that. People have been leaving where I work with compromise agreements. Just being made redundant, effectively.

    Unless we know why cannot read too much into it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
    I would use the word "erratic" if had to choose a single word for a word cloud.

    All politicians need to change and adapt, but Sunak seems to rip up long-standing policies on a whim, based on a Coke fueled night with his spreadsheets.
    I'd choose desperate or unfocused.

    He's staring at a humiliating loss and whatever options he picks open him to attack by one wing of the party or another, so he tries to be both stable and revolutionary. He tries to be statesmanlike and a rabble router. He tries to be tough but also cuddly.

    It just confuses people.
    @RobBfromDerby

    “So, how, just by way of example, would I delete all the WhatsApp messages?”


  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Smash the monopoly/oligopoly of house builders by moving away from our current convoluted planning system which grants entire estates to a single developer to build who can turn on or off construction at will to deliberately manage prices.

    Instead move to a Japanese-style system where if land is zoned for housing anyone can build on it without asking any permission first from neighbours or Council or anyone else since permission has already been granted via it being in the right zone.
    This must have been how we did it a few decades ago as the estate I live on was built by three different housebuilders.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079
    That said, my 'regular person' sounding board dislikes Starmer saying he hasn't got a clue and is just a puppet for others.

    However they've called Sunak a snake so it evens out.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Foxy said:

    Icarus said:

    DavidL said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
    I normally agree with you on most things but couldn't disagree with you more there.

    The housing crisis and chronic housing shortage is the biggest crisis in this country today. For SKS to alight on this as his big idea shows he understands what is a real problem in a way Sunak and the Tories have failed to do since the modest planning reforms Boris intended were rejected.

    If anything, SKS deserves criticism not because the 300k per annum target is too challenging, but that it's far too modest.

    Even with 300k a year, with population growth continuing that is not going to make a dent in our housing shortage.

    France has the same population as us and 13 million extra homes.
    Wishing for 300k houses a year won't make it happen!!
    The only plausible solution to meet those numbers is mass building using government money, as was done in the 1950s and 60's for council houses. A long bear market in property with higher real term interest rates is not going to rev up private building.
    That will be part of it, I'm sure.
    But government is also likely to partner with private developers, and if it acquires building land cheaply, has a lever to encourage their cooperation.

    I would guess builders with large land banks are fairly scared of the prospect. (Something along those lines party explains their enthusiasm over the years to contribute to Conservative Party funding.)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    There is a ruthless side to Starmer. The way he has driven his predecessor out of the party to make the point he is “different” is a good example. Even Blair tolerated Corbyn throughout his premiership and did not feel that need. The alleged recording of him being abusive to a staff member the other day fits that pattern too. Whether that was fake or not I don’t think that he would be fun to work for.

    The audio recording was fake.

    I find it bizarre that you seem unbothered as to whether it “was fake or not”! Does truth not matter any more? It was fake and I fail to see any evidence that Starmer is difficult to work for.
    Really? Do you have a link?
    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-faces-political-attack-after-deepfake-audio-is-posted-of-sir-keir-starmer-
    12980181
    Thanks. I have been doing another trial this week and had missed that.

    There have however been a series of stories about staffers leaving the Labour Party with NDAs https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/21/top-barrister-accuses-labour-of-spin-over-ndas-gagging-ex-staff
    Nothing in that story relates to the behaviour of Keir Starmer.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    I think most people would welcome a break from interesting politicians.

    You think Sunak is interesting?
    I think he meant in the criminal sense
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Taz said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Smash the monopoly/oligopoly of house builders by moving away from our current convoluted planning system which grants entire estates to a single developer to build who can turn on or off construction at will to deliberately manage prices.

    Instead move to a Japanese-style system where if land is zoned for housing anyone can build on it without asking any permission first from neighbours or Council or anyone else since permission has already been granted via it being in the right zone.
    This must have been how we did it a few decades ago as the estate I live on was built by three different housebuilders.
    That’s still very common - most of the “strategic site” developments round here are like that.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Foxy said:

    I am no Starmer fan, and even less a Streeting fan, but Mrs Foxy is. After yesterday's speech Labour has her vote.

    I live on one of the 7 Tory held seats with a large majority in Leics that encircle the city. On current polling some of these turn improbably red. I will wait for the candidates flyers before deciding but really hard to see the seat as other than Tory hold.

    I’m not a Starmer fan, nor a natural Labour voter, but I think it’s time for a change of government, the current lot have no ideas left and need time away.
    I live in a very safe Tory seat in SW wilts, so it probably doesn’t matter who I vote for, and I respect our MP, but he won’t be getting my vote this time round.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    Eabhal said:

    On home building:

    1) Abolish duties when sizing down, based on number of bedrooms. Increase duties on second homes, and hike council tax on STLs and empty homes.

    2) Adjust council tax so that detached houses pay significantly more than equivalent flats. Base it on footprint.

    3) No new estates that are more than a 15 minute walk from a primary school etc. If they are, the developer must leave space and infrastructure for public services to be later built by council

    4) Use the ONS map of rental percentages to identify where developers should be incentivised to built high density housing (cos it can't be as awful as what the landlords are providing): https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/tenure-of-household/hh-tenure-5a/private-rented-or-lives-rent-free



    Ghetto's then, or sink estates are they are better known in UK
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413
    The limits of a managerial approach to Government combined with a supine approach to foreign Governments have been cruelly exposed in the last year. We have some big issues here, in no particular order:
    -Poor public service productivity - every pound of taxpayers money is getting 7.5% less shit done than it did before
    -Too much illegal migration, and probably legal also
    -Net Zero set to cost the economy £3tn, and in world carbon emission terms, to make a negligible difference, whilst we offshore high carbon industries to coal-burning China
    -The highest tax burden since the 40's
    -Energy costs twice as much as it does in the USA - how can our companies possibly compete on that basis?
    -Not enough dwellings, or infrastructure to go with them
    -The Bank of England has gone completely tonto and is set on destroying the economy with its quantative tightening programme, following its massively inflationary quantative easing programme

    I could go on obviously, but that's enough. I can see only one of those issues where SKS's Labour even plans a solution (housing), and even that is likely to involve targets and 5 year plans rather than making it easy for the industry to do its job.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Taz said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Smash the monopoly/oligopoly of house builders by moving away from our current convoluted planning system which grants entire estates to a single developer to build who can turn on or off construction at will to deliberately manage prices.

    Instead move to a Japanese-style system where if land is zoned for housing anyone can build on it without asking any permission first from neighbours or Council or anyone else since permission has already been granted via it being in the right zone.
    This must have been how we did it a few decades ago as the estate I live on was built by three different housebuilders.
    That's what happened here: there were three different housebuilders for the village. Interestingly, they were not given large zones of the village to develop, leading to all the houses looking the same. Instead, they were given streets, or even different plots on the same street. Until this changed when the last part of the village was built, this led to quite a difference in styles in any one place.

    For instance, there are no houses like mine on this street. But if I go three hundred metres away, I can find a couple that are identical.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    Nigelb said:

    The responsibility for Hamas's action lies entirely with Hamas - but this Israeli editorial calls out Netanyahu as an enabler.

    https://www.haaretz.com/ty-WRITER/0000017f-da25-d42c-afff-dff7a1c10000
    ...His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas.

    “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”..

    It's more likely he enabled by appointing incompetent political cronies and lackies to key positions in the IDF and Mossad, who were asleep at the wheel.
    Right wing nut jobs who struggle to count their fingers, too busy chucking people out of their houses.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079

    Foxy said:

    I am no Starmer fan, and even less a Streeting fan, but Mrs Foxy is. After yesterday's speech Labour has her vote.

    I live on one of the 7 Tory held seats with a large majority in Leics that encircle the city. On current polling some of these turn improbably red. I will wait for the candidates flyers before deciding but really hard to see the seat as other than Tory hold.

    I’m not a Starmer fan, nor a natural Labour voter, but I think it’s time for a change of government, the current lot have no ideas left and need time away.
    I live in a very safe Tory seat in SW wilts, so it probably doesn’t matter who I vote for, and I respect our MP, but he won’t be getting my vote this time round.
    Hey, the majority was as low as 10,000 in 2010, could be a nailbiter.

    More interesting is whether the LDs can finally reclaim second place - there's swathes of seats Labour could cement themselves as the main opposition which had been LD territory.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    eek said:

    Icarus said:

    DavidL said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
    I normally agree with you on most things but couldn't disagree with you more there.

    The housing crisis and chronic housing shortage is the biggest crisis in this country today. For SKS to alight on this as his big idea shows he understands what is a real problem in a way Sunak and the Tories have failed to do since the modest planning reforms Boris intended were rejected.

    If anything, SKS deserves criticism not because the 300k per annum target is too challenging, but that it's far too modest.

    Even with 300k a year, with population growth continuing that is not going to make a dent in our housing shortage.

    France has the same population as us and 13 million extra homes.
    Wishing for 300k houses a year won't make it happen!!
    Planning reform to solves issues that stop the properties being built will go a long way to help things.
    I have a bridge for sale , call me
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2023
    According to IPSOS-MORI’s personality question in their Leader Image ratings, Sunak is considered equally boring (they tied 21-21) so it can’t just be that. It does mean the PM is unlikely to claw back votes during the campaign as a leader with big personality (Boris led Sir Keir by forty points)

    The strange thing about the public & Starmer is how he has them thinking he is honest. He was completely dishonest about Brexit - in the 2017 GE campaign saying it was “an important point of principle” that the vote be implemented, then once elected saying it was “an important point of principle” that there be a a second referendum in which he would campaign for Remain

    https://x.com/asfarasdelgados/status/1633564841205174274?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When he ran for leader he pledged to fight for FOM, he now rules it out, he also pledged to nationalise public services, end outsourcing in the NHS, increase income tax etc etc, and he has rowed back on all of those as well

    Campaigned for Corbyn to be PM, called him a ‘friend’, then chucked him out of the party “he was never a friend”

    Stated he wanted the Royal Family scrapped - accepted a Knighthood

    Says he’s a vegetarian because he doesn’t agree with killing animals for food - eats fish.

    If a wide boy did these things you’d say it was typical

    It probably is down to Boris being regarded as flamboyant but untrustworthy, and people assumed it’s like a film and he must have all the opposing characteristics - SKS is dull, and people associate dullness with honesty, even if the dullard is a liar

    All that said, he seems to be effective, and that’s important for a PM, whereas honesty isn’t really. They all lie. I had thought his lack of charisma would be a hindrance in a campaign against Boris, but things have changed and it doesn’t really matter now he is up against Sunak
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    Taz said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Smash the monopoly/oligopoly of house builders by moving away from our current convoluted planning system which grants entire estates to a single developer to build who can turn on or off construction at will to deliberately manage prices.

    Instead move to a Japanese-style system where if land is zoned for housing anyone can build on it without asking any permission first from neighbours or Council or anyone else since permission has already been granted via it being in the right zone.
    This must have been how we did it a few decades ago as the estate I live on was built by three different housebuilders.
    That's what happened here: there were three different housebuilders for the village. Interestingly, they were not given large zones of the village to develop, leading to all the houses looking the same. Instead, they were given streets, or even different plots on the same street. Until this changed when the last part of the village was built, this led to quite a difference in styles in any one place.

    For instance, there are no houses like mine on this street. But if I go three hundred metres away, I can find a couple that are identical.
    That must have enormously increased construction costs.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079
    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    Icarus said:

    DavidL said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
    I normally agree with you on most things but couldn't disagree with you more there.

    The housing crisis and chronic housing shortage is the biggest crisis in this country today. For SKS to alight on this as his big idea shows he understands what is a real problem in a way Sunak and the Tories have failed to do since the modest planning reforms Boris intended were rejected.

    If anything, SKS deserves criticism not because the 300k per annum target is too challenging, but that it's far too modest.

    Even with 300k a year, with population growth continuing that is not going to make a dent in our housing shortage.

    France has the same population as us and 13 million extra homes.
    Wishing for 300k houses a year won't make it happen!!
    Planning reform to solves issues that stop the properties being built will go a long way to help things.
    I have a bridge for sale , call me
    Does it come with planning permission? If not, no deal.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558
    edited October 2023
    Ukraine: after a couple of days of low Russian casualties/losses, today they are massive. 820 military personnel. 34 tanks, 91 armoured fighting vehilces, 18 artillery.

    Major Russia attack on Avdviika, with up to 8,000 soldiers. Largely blunted with massive casualties suffered it appears. One column of fighting vehicles was stopped when the lead Russian vehicle fell off a bridge into a lake. Chaos as the other vehicles tried to turn round on a narrow path. Watched by a Ukrainian artillery spotter drone....
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,138
    edited October 2023
    Eabhal said:

    On home building:

    1) Abolish duties when sizing down, based on number of bedrooms. Increase duties on second homes, and hike council tax on STLs and empty homes.

    2) Adjust council tax so that detached houses pay significantly more than equivalent flats. Base it on footprint.

    3) No new estates that are more than a 15 minute walk from a primary school etc. If they are, the developer must leave space and infrastructure for public services to be later built by council

    4) Use the ONS map of rental percentages to identify where developers should be incentivised to built high density housing (cos it can't be as awful as what the landlords are providing): https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/tenure-of-household/hh-tenure-5a/private-rented-or-lives-rent-free

    Some interesting ideas, but about 95% of it has been in place for many years already, and some of your emphases don't address the actual need.

    For example, for primary schools the overwhelming issue is not distance to walk, but how to do it safely and to convince parents that it is safe for their children. It's about safe routes to schools - and problems are around dangerous (or felt-dangerous) roads near schools, parents driving all over the pavements to drop off their children ignoring children on those pavements, no respect for Crossing Wardens and so on. Obviously a "15 minute walk" criteria cannot apply in low density population areas.

    The type of measures that fix this will be a total parking ban within 100m of primary schools 8:30-9:30 and 2:30-4:30, 20mph speed limits, enforcement of such, School Streets, designing housing developments for safe walking / cycling / wheeling, removing through traffic from near schools, removing unlawful anti-access barriers which exist on hundreds of thousands of footpaths, and so on. It's some principle, come policy and 25 years of sweating the detail.

    (The same measures need to apply to nursery schools, child minding, local playgrounds, parks etc for the same reasons.)

    I'll try and find time after breakfast to do a point by point reply.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nigelb said:

    The responsibility for Hamas's action lies entirely with Hamas - but this Israeli editorial calls out Netanyahu as an enabler.

    https://www.haaretz.com/ty-WRITER/0000017f-da25-d42c-afff-dff7a1c10000
    ...His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas.

    “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”..

    It's more likely he enabled by appointing incompetent political cronies and lackies to key positions in the IDF and Mossad, who were asleep at the wheel.
    The oped calls that out, too.
    It's not either/or.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I am no Starmer fan, and even less a Streeting fan, but Mrs Foxy is. After yesterday's speech Labour has her vote.

    I live on one of the 7 Tory held seats with a large majority in Leics that encircle the city. On current polling some of these turn improbably red. I will wait for the candidates flyers before deciding but really hard to see the seat as other than Tory hold.

    I’m not a Starmer fan, nor a natural Labour voter, but I think it’s time for a change of government, the current lot have no ideas left and need time away.
    I live in a very safe Tory seat in SW wilts, so it probably doesn’t matter who I vote for, and I respect our MP, but he won’t be getting my vote this time round.
    Hey, the majority was as low as 10,000 in 2010, could be a nailbiter.

    More interesting is whether the LDs can finally reclaim second place - there's swathes of seats Labour could cement themselves as the main opposition which had been LD territory.
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/calcwork23.py?seat=Wiltshire South West

    1800 Tory majority on Electoral Calculus, it needs just a little tactical voting, but for who?

    This is why the 3 way fight in Mid Beds is interesting. I am glad both Lab and LD are going for it. We need to know how things break.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    Icarus said:

    DavidL said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Well obviously they won’t. The fact SKS alighted on that as his big idea suggests to me that the larder was somewhat bare.
    I normally agree with you on most things but couldn't disagree with you more there.

    The housing crisis and chronic housing shortage is the biggest crisis in this country today. For SKS to alight on this as his big idea shows he understands what is a real problem in a way Sunak and the Tories have failed to do since the modest planning reforms Boris intended were rejected.

    If anything, SKS deserves criticism not because the 300k per annum target is too challenging, but that it's far too modest.

    Even with 300k a year, with population growth continuing that is not going to make a dent in our housing shortage.

    France has the same population as us and 13 million extra homes.
    Wishing for 300k houses a year won't make it happen!!
    Planning reform to solves issues that stop the properties being built will go a long way to help things.
    I have a bridge for sale , call me
    It will be compulsorily purchased.
    If required.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Icarus said:

    How will they build 1.5m new homes? In a recent announcement by major house builder Vistry (includes brands Countywide and Bovis) sales were down 28% in the first half and they have decided to hunker down - concentrating their resources on social housing projects and return capital to shareholders. Whilst would be great if all 1.5m new houses were social housing this is unlikely to happen - especially in "new towns" where a mix of housing is required. With interest rates expected to be high for some time sales of new houses for owner occupation will be depressed.

    Smash the monopoly/oligopoly of house builders by moving away from our current convoluted planning system which grants entire estates to a single developer to build who can turn on or off construction at will to deliberately manage prices.

    Instead move to a Japanese-style system where if land is zoned for housing anyone can build on it without asking any permission first from neighbours or Council or anyone else since permission has already been granted via it being in the right zone.
    This must have been how we did it a few decades ago as the estate I live on was built by three different housebuilders.
    That's what happened here: there were three different housebuilders for the village. Interestingly, they were not given large zones of the village to develop, leading to all the houses looking the same. Instead, they were given streets, or even different plots on the same street. Until this changed when the last part of the village was built, this led to quite a difference in styles in any one place.

    For instance, there are no houses like mine on this street. But if I go three hundred metres away, I can find a couple that are identical.
    That must have enormously increased construction costs.
    Apparently not, from what I've been told.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079
    edited October 2023
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I am no Starmer fan, and even less a Streeting fan, but Mrs Foxy is. After yesterday's speech Labour has her vote.

    I live on one of the 7 Tory held seats with a large majority in Leics that encircle the city. On current polling some of these turn improbably red. I will wait for the candidates flyers before deciding but really hard to see the seat as other than Tory hold.

    I’m not a Starmer fan, nor a natural Labour voter, but I think it’s time for a change of government, the current lot have no ideas left and need time away.
    I live in a very safe Tory seat in SW wilts, so it probably doesn’t matter who I vote for, and I respect our MP, but he won’t be getting my vote this time round.
    Hey, the majority was as low as 10,000 in 2010, could be a nailbiter.

    More interesting is whether the LDs can finally reclaim second place - there's swathes of seats Labour could cement themselves as the main opposition which had been LD territory.
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/calcwork23.py?seat=Wiltshire South West

    1800 Tory majority on Electoral Calculus, it needs just a little tactical voting, but for who?

    This is why the 3 way fight in Mid Beds is interesting. I am glad both Lab and LD are going for it. We need to know how things break.
    The local councils would tell you it's LDs all the way. 3 Labour and 28 LDs vs 61 Con, with none of the Labour seats in the South West seat. The biggest settlement town council is LD controlled with no labour, who didn't even stand in several areas.

    But that was also true during the previous GEs, when Labour took over second place, and with national momentum it's clear people can and do vote differently. So i think they will hoover up the opposition vote more and see that in similar seats.

    Expect past council vote share not GE vote share on the LD leaflets.
This discussion has been closed.