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Sunak needs a better strategy – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited October 2023 in General
Sunak needs a better strategy – politicalbetting.com

Rishi Sunak has been trying to position himself as the candidate of change – but 69% of Britons say he represents more of the sameRepresents change: 13%Represents more of the same: 69%https://t.co/OzoX3inVIl pic.twitter.com/9hGZvnpSnI

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • First like Starmer.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558

    First like Starmer.

    That's Sir effin' n jeffin' Starmer to you.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    edited October 2023
    I am amazed you believe Sunak has a strategy.

    It only looks like a plan because he's being compared to Starmer.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    kle4 said:

    Trying to be the change candidate after years of your party being in power is difficult enough as it is, but Rishi took over in chaotic circumstances as the 'no major changes' candidate. He just cannot plausibly reposition after that in the way that Boris was able to.

    Especially as he was in Boris’ cabinet.
  • First like Starmer.

    That's Sir effin' n jeffin' Starmer to you.
    Fake news.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    British politics is so BEIGE
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Quack quack. Not the best start from India.
  • A problem with Sunak offering change is that there are many millions who don't want change and even more millions who want change but not the sort of change that Sunak is offering.
  • Rubbish, the Tories are fighting back per Deltapoll :lol:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    I am amazed you believe Sunak has a strategy.

    It only looks like a plan because he's being compared to Starmer.

    For once, we agree.
    The idea that there remains a route to a 'better strategy', after the week of economic, and self sabotage, is somewhat fanciful.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263

    First like Starmer.

    That's Sir effin' n jeffin' Starmer to you.
    Fake news.
    Has this been proved?

    I've not seen conclusive evidence that the audio is fake. I have seen "important people" TELL us it is fake, I've also seen unknown randoms on Twitter - who claim to be audio experts - say it is real

    Which to believe? Neither?

    This really does encapsulate our contemporary problem. AI Fakery colliding with politics. Maybe we will never know if Sir Kir Royale Starmer says "fuck sake you fucking moron fuck off to fucksitan with a fuck-bucket of fucks" ALL THE TIME

    Personally, I'd quite like to know. And conclusive proof, either way, would be welcome

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    200 looking a pretty good score.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Ooh, India two runs for three wickets.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Sandpit said:

    Quack quack. Not the best start from India.

    Quack, quack, quack.

    Kohli surely the key wicket now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    Dura_Ace said:

    The problem with 'Long Term Decisions for a Brighter Future', apart from its prolix turgidity, is that it's the exact opposite of what he's actually doing.

    Doing the opposite of what you say is a common enough problem that I'd suggest the poorness of the slogan may in fact be more notable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    “I know more about ambulance stacks than anyone else who has done this job.”

    What similarly strange boasts might previous PMs have made ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    A problem with Sunak offering change is that there are many millions who don't want change and even more millions who want change but not the sort of change that Sunak is offering.

    But the narrative is patently absurd not least because he has been Prime Minister for a year and CoE for the previous two.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Quack quack. Not the best start from India.

    Quack, quack, quack.

    Kohli surely the key wicket now.
    Watch Kholi and Rahul now go and get the 200 runs in 30 overs.
  • Sandpit said:

    Ooh, India two runs for three wickets.

    Britain should have taught Indians how to play football :lol:
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558
    Dura_Ace said:

    The problem with 'Long Term Decisions for a Brighter Future', apart from its prolix turgidity, is that it's the exact opposite of what he's actually doing.

    = he's going to have a 10 Year Plan to install brighter bulbs in all public buildings
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Eyewitness account of the mass murder at the festival.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67044787
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Dura_Ace said:

    The problem with 'Long Term Decisions for a Brighter Future', apart from its prolix turgidity, is that it's the exact opposite of what he's actually doing.

    = he's going to have a 10 Year Plan to install brighter bulbs in all public buildings
    You might be onto something, however it will most likely be the replacement of all LED light bulbs with non-woke tungsten carbide bulbs.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    Hard to argue with this comment on the BBC.

    Tom Linden-McCarron: If stadiums are half-empty for an Indian World Cup match versus Australia in India, then unfortunately, as much as I love the format, ODIs' time may be up.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558
    edited October 2023

    Dura_Ace said:

    The problem with 'Long Term Decisions for a Brighter Future', apart from its prolix turgidity, is that it's the exact opposite of what he's actually doing.

    = he's going to have a 10 Year Plan to install brighter bulbs in all public buildings
    You might be onto something, however it will most likely be the replacement of all LED light bulbs with non-woke tungsten carbide bulbs.
    If you really want to wind up the Wokerati, then it has to be mercury vapour bulbs.

    On the plus side, it'll pull in some great moths.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Interesting.
    The practicalities of doing anything certainly require votes in Congress.

    Centrist GOP effort to reinstate McCarthy picks up steam after Israel attacks
    Reinstalling the Californian, the thinking goes, is the only way to quickly deliver aid to Israel.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/07/some-republicans-making-bid-to-bring-back-mccarthy-to-move-on-aid-to-israel-00120501
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    kle4 said:

    Hard to argue with this comment on the BBC.

    Tom Linden-McCarron: If stadiums are half-empty for an Indian World Cup match versus Australia in India, then unfortunately, as much as I love the format, ODIs' time may be up.

    Is this pricing or lack of interest ?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215
    edited October 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    The problem with 'Long Term Decisions for a Brighter Future', apart from its prolix turgidity, is that it's the exact opposite of what he's actually doing.

    It's very Yes, Prime Minister (Bach means radical reform, Stravinsky means no change, Elgar means selling the country out.) If you're doing Short Term Scams, you have to headline them Long Term Plans and hope nobody notices.

    It's the kind of impudent denial of reality that Johnson could get away with but Sunak can't.

    As for the wider picture, Sunak's holding the parcel as it explodes. There are only really three campaigns that work. "The Other Lot Are Scary" (not going to work with Sweary Starmer), "Everything's Swell" (ho ho ho), and "Time For A Change". He has to go for the third, even though it's clearly nuts.

    Is there any real change that Rishi could offer, if so minded?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Inadvertent shades of Chris Morris, here


    "BREAKING!
    It’s officially WAR!

    Israel declares war for the first time since 1973.
    The National Security Council approved a state of war in accordance with Article 40 of the Basic Government Law."

    https://x.com/AshleaSimonBF/status/1711004556023288107?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting.
    The practicalities of doing anything certainly require votes in Congress.

    Centrist GOP effort to reinstate McCarthy picks up steam after Israel attacks
    Reinstalling the Californian, the thinking goes, is the only way to quickly deliver aid to Israel.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/07/some-republicans-making-bid-to-bring-back-mccarthy-to-move-on-aid-to-israel-00120501

    Is the suggestion here that the two current candidates not only oppose aid to Ukraine (which a majority of the GOP now do as well) but could not even marshall support behind aid to Israel, even though presumably that is far more supported?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The problem with 'Long Term Decisions for a Brighter Future', apart from its prolix turgidity, is that it's the exact opposite of what he's actually doing.

    Doing the opposite of what you say is a common enough problem that I'd suggest the poorness of the slogan may in fact be more notable.
    Who can forget "You can only be sure with the Conservatives"?

    Sure that you'll get shafted. Sure that you'll get lied to. Sure that they'll line their mates' pockets.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    edited October 2023
    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Hard to argue with this comment on the BBC.

    Tom Linden-McCarron: If stadiums are half-empty for an Indian World Cup match versus Australia in India, then unfortunately, as much as I love the format, ODIs' time may be up.

    Is this pricing or lack of interest ?
    It's often said India is still a big fan of Cricket - even with sky high prices there should be enough Indian fans who could afford it, if they cared. The Premier League here can still sell out matches even if the working classes increasingly could not afford it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558

    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, India two runs for three wickets.

    Britain should have taught Indians how to play football :lol:
    Did we teach the Aussies to play cricket? Or did they just, you know, steal the bats and have a smack about?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Leon said:

    British politics is so BEIGE

    John Major was quite exciting compared to today's politicians.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited October 2023
    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Hard to argue with this comment on the BBC.

    Tom Linden-McCarron: If stadiums are half-empty for an Indian World Cup match versus Australia in India, then unfortunately, as much as I love the format, ODIs' time may be up.

    Is this pricing or lack of interest ?
    More likely it's the hot and humid conditions. At one time Indian crowds would have put up with it, but probably not today in the age of air conditioning [in countries other than the United States].
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, India two runs for three wickets.

    Britain should have taught Indians how to play football :lol:
    I know an old joke about Indians and football, but probably not suitable for telling.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077

    Dura_Ace said:

    The problem with 'Long Term Decisions for a Brighter Future', apart from its prolix turgidity, is that it's the exact opposite of what he's actually doing.

    It's very Yes, Prime Minister (Bach means radical reform, Stravinsky means no change, Elgar means selling the country out.) If you're doing Short Term Scams, you have to headline them Long Term Plans and hope nobody notices.

    It's the kind of impudent denial of reality that Johnson could get away with but Sunak can't.

    As for the wider picture, Sunak's holding the parcel as it explodes. There are only really three campaigns that work. "The Other Lot Are Scary" (not going to work with Sweary Starmer), "Everything's Swell" (ho ho ho), and "Time For A Change". He has to go for the third, even though it's clearly nuts.

    Is there any real change that Rishi could offer, if so minded?
    Free money for the over 70s, and mandating by law regular visits from their grandchildren.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Dura_Ace said:

    The problem with 'Long Term Decisions for a Brighter Future', apart from its prolix turgidity, is that it's the exact opposite of what he's actually doing.

    = he's going to have a 10 Year Plan to install brighter bulbs in all public buildings
    You might be onto something, however it will most likely be the replacement of all LED light bulbs with non-woke tungsten carbide bulbs.
    If you really want to wind up the Wokerati, then it has to be mercury vapour bulbs.

    On the plus side, it'll pull in some great moths.
    Lighting by gas. Gas lighting?

    And that works in manifold ways.
  • Nigelb said:

    Eyewitness account of the mass murder at the festival.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67044787

    That account does raise another question. Why was the Israeli police and IDF response so slow? You'd have expected an armed response in minutes, even if an inadequate one.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    British politics is so BEIGE

    John Major was quite exciting compared to today's politicians.
    He really wasn't. A nice man who liked his cricket, a warm beer and a night in with a Currie. That is the definition of beige.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Hard to argue with this comment on the BBC.

    Tom Linden-McCarron: If stadiums are half-empty for an Indian World Cup match versus Australia in India, then unfortunately, as much as I love the format, ODIs' time may be up.

    Is this pricing or lack of interest ?
    More likely it's the hot and humid conditions. At one time Indian crowds would have put up with it, but probably not today in the age of air conditioning [in countries other than the United States].
    Yes, that's definitely an issue - especially during the day when sitting in the Indian sun for 6 hours. And even at night it can be oppressive

    Also the heat reduces the crowd's energy. You don't want to be leaping about cheering and singing when it's 38C with a wet bulb of 54C

    Another issue is the huge stadiums. A 30,000 crowd packing the Oval or Headingley will sound amazing, 30,000 in a 100,000 seater in Kolkata won't provide any fervour at all
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    kle4 said:

    Hard to argue with this comment on the BBC.

    Tom Linden-McCarron: If stadiums are half-empty for an Indian World Cup match versus Australia in India, then unfortunately, as much as I love the format, ODIs' time may be up.

    It looks pretty much full now, although it did take a while to fill up. Many of the seats being the same colour blue as the Indian shirts, does help with making the stands look emptier than they are.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,818

    Dura_Ace said:

    The problem with 'Long Term Decisions for a Brighter Future', apart from its prolix turgidity, is that it's the exact opposite of what he's actually doing.

    = he's going to have a 10 Year Plan to install brighter bulbs in all public buildings
    You might be onto something, however it will most likely be the replacement of all LED light bulbs with non-woke tungsten carbide bulbs.
    In the best principles of PBpedantry, one has to point out that that really would be a crap decision. Now, if it were tungsten wire, somewhat less crap ...

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    British politics is so BEIGE

    John Major was quite exciting compared to today's politicians.
    He really wasn't. A nice man who liked his cricket, a warm beer and a night in with a Currie. That is the definition of beige.
    I was thinking more of the Edwina Currie angle.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Hard to argue with this comment on the BBC.

    Tom Linden-McCarron: If stadiums are half-empty for an Indian World Cup match versus Australia in India, then unfortunately, as much as I love the format, ODIs' time may be up.

    It looks pretty much full now, although it did take a while to fill up. Many of the seats being the same colour blue as the Indian shirts, does help with making the stands look emptier than they are.
    I think it was incredibly hot before the sun went down and, of course, India was batting second. Still a bit surprising. Think Mitch Marsh might well have dropped the match.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    edited October 2023
    As Stuartinromford notes there are at a practical level only a few types of basic campaign pitch available to any government or opposition. I'd suggest in fact only two, not three ("Time for a change" and "Don't risk it", with the latter just modulated depending on if there is something positive to say at all).

    The problem is I think after a certain number of years you actually get reduced even further to only one, "Don't risk it". "Time for a change" might work on a specific policy issue, like settling the Brexit question where frankly the whole situation was a confused mess, but outside very broad matters like that to use it means you agree things are going badly, and thus admitting you've done a bad job, even if you try to blame others, since you cannot credibly claim you needed more time to change the things left over from the last lot.

    So the choice of that as a direction is very telling, since it means the government believes it cannot defend its record, and that it is preferable to disassociate from its own past actions, despite that being on paper a much trickier thing to argue.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Hard to argue with this comment on the BBC.

    Tom Linden-McCarron: If stadiums are half-empty for an Indian World Cup match versus Australia in India, then unfortunately, as much as I love the format, ODIs' time may be up.

    It looks pretty much full now, although it did take a while to fill up. Many of the seats being the same colour blue as the Indian shirts, does help with making the stands look emptier than they are.
    I think it was incredibly hot before the sun went down and, of course, India was batting second. Still a bit surprising. Think Mitch Marsh might well have dropped the match.
    That was a World-class drop!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    Leon said:

    First like Starmer.

    That's Sir effin' n jeffin' Starmer to you.
    Fake news.
    Has this been proved?

    I've not seen conclusive evidence that the audio is fake. I have seen "important people" TELL us it is fake, I've also seen unknown randoms on Twitter - who claim to be audio experts - say it is real

    Which to believe? Neither?

    This really does encapsulate our contemporary problem. AI Fakery colliding with politics. Maybe we will never know if Sir Kir Royale Starmer says "fuck sake you fucking moron fuck off to fucksitan with a fuck-bucket of fucks" ALL THE TIME

    Personally, I'd quite like to know. And conclusive proof, either way, would be welcome

    That's part of the problem here. Does anyone believe in the coming years of AI generated fakery that releasing concrete proof (whatever thay might be) would convince enough people who want to believe it?

    Show some technical analysis that show's the thing is generated, or both instances of "F*ck's sake" are identical in every way in a manner human beings just cannot manage, and someone will still say, "Well, can we be sure though?".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    A lot of knock on effects of the attacks on Israel to come in the next few weeks and months.

    Firstly, looks like Ukraine is shafted. GOP reps already looking to make any spending commitments prioritise Israel at the expense of Ukraine. Russia is making sure its propagandists are amplifying this - it’s the let’s cancel x and use the money to fund y tactic for the US right.

    Second, probably another refugee crisis for Europe to brace for, especially if Egypt is unwelcoming to Gaza Palestinians. And it’ll be politically toxic in Europe given the terrorist origins of what’s about to happen.

    Finally, the usual oil price response, just in time for Boreal winter. Depends how wide any conflict spreads.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    edited October 2023
    TimS said:

    A lot of knock on effects of the attacks on Israel to come in the next few weeks and months.

    Firstly, looks like Ukraine is shafted. GOP reps already looking to make any spending commitments prioritise Israel at the expense of Ukraine. Russia is making sure its propagandists are amplifying this - it’s the let’s cancel x and use the money to fund y tactic for the US right.

    Second, probably another refugee crisis for Europe to brace for, especially if Egypt is unwelcoming to Gaza Palestinians. And it’ll be politically toxic in Europe given the terrorist origins of what’s about to happen.

    Finally, the usual oil price response, just in time for Boreal winter. Depends how wide any conflict spreads.

    The last 30 years have not been amazing for everyone in the world, but looks like it may be a golden age of peace for many compared to the next 30. Millenials may end up being incredibly grateful for the period in which we grew up.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    DavidL said:

    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.

    Link?

    Not disbelieving you, just slightly mind-boggled. That's a horrific number in one day
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.

    Link?

    Not disbelieving you, just slightly mind-boggled. That's a horrific number in one day
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

    Add in the retaliatory strikes from Israel and over 1000 now dead in the region.
  • Nigelb said:

    Interesting.
    The practicalities of doing anything certainly require votes in Congress.

    Centrist GOP effort to reinstate McCarthy picks up steam after Israel attacks
    Reinstalling the Californian, the thinking goes, is the only way to quickly deliver aid to Israel.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/07/some-republicans-making-bid-to-bring-back-mccarthy-to-move-on-aid-to-israel-00120501

    I know it is not the right time to be debating, or even thinking, about such things but a key ramification of the attacks will be how it impacts the politics / geopolitics elsewhere.

    For a start, it is hard to think of this as not strengthening the position of alt-right places, especially in those countries with large North African-mainly, Muslim populations (France, Sweden, Germany etc). The videos of people cheering the attacks in many Western countries will be circulated around, especially given the horrific videos coming out of Israel. Not hard to imagine the pick-up video scene gaining as much resonance as some of the pictures of the Vietnam War.

    Similarly, it will probably also harden the line of those in Central and Eastern Europe who will call for greater limits on immigration into the EU and, for the Union, to be more 'robust' in defence of European culture and values.

    In the UK, probably less of an impact than these other countries but it will again raise the question about the need to stop waves of immigration, especially given the large number of Afghans, Iranians etc coming on the boat (i.e. mainly Muslim). While the Conservatives are seen as woeful on the subject, if Labour is seen as the party of "let them all in", that is going to cause problems in many areas of the country.

    The most interesting one could be the US. Already Pence has attacked Trump on this and Trump has responded by attacking Biden over his deal with Iran which, regardless of what you think politically, looks like an error given what has happened. How that plays out with Jewish voters may become a factor.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.

    Link?

    Not disbelieving you, just slightly mind-boggled. That's a horrific number in one day
    BBC reporting Israeli government: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

    It is mind boggling. I just can't get over the intelligence failure. How on earth did they miss the preparations?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    edited October 2023
    TimS said:

    A lot of knock on effects of the attacks on Israel to come in the next few weeks and months.

    Firstly, looks like Ukraine is shafted. GOP reps already looking to make any spending commitments prioritise Israel at the expense of Ukraine. Russia is making sure its propagandists are amplifying this - it’s the let’s cancel x and use the money to fund y tactic for the US right.

    Second, probably another refugee crisis for Europe to brace for, especially if Egypt is unwelcoming to Gaza Palestinians. And it’ll be politically toxic in Europe given the terrorist origins of what’s about to happen.

    Finally, the usual oil price response, just in time for Boreal winter. Depends how wide any conflict spreads.

    US support for Ukraine has been waning and has become a completely partisan issue, already suffering, and now there is a massive distraction event and situation much closer to many of their hearts.

    Putin will have been dreaming for a scenario like this. The worst people always find a way to prosper.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    British politics is so BEIGE

    John Major was quite exciting compared to today's politicians.
    He really wasn't. A nice man who liked his cricket, a warm beer and a night in with a Currie. That is the definition of beige.
    I was thinking more of the Edwina Currie angle.
    It never crossed my mind.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.

    Link?

    Not disbelieving you, just slightly mind-boggled. That's a horrific number in one day
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

    Add in the retaliatory strikes from Israel and over 1000 now dead in the region.
    Kinell

    That's a momentous total

    I don't see what Israel can do, now, other than reduce all of Gaza to rubble and keep it like that. I don't say this because I enioy "blatant terror porn" or whatever, but because of the logic. The devastating way Hamas fooled the Israeli army and intel regime, yesterday, and the new ways they did it - with drones, paragliders, missiles, presumably funded by Iran - means that Israel can no longer guarantee the security of its people as long as Gaza exists, Because Gazans will do it again, if they can

    The equivalent toll in the UK would be 4,200 people killed and 14,000 injured, plut thousands kidnapped, in one day. Definitely an act of war requiring maximum revenge, as a matter of survival

    Ergo: Gaza will soon cease to exist. The hideous "open air prison" method has run its course

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,818

    ...

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    British politics is so BEIGE

    John Major was quite exciting compared to today's politicians.
    He really wasn't. A nice man who liked his cricket, a warm beer and a night in with a Currie. That is the definition of beige.
    I was thinking more of the Edwina Currie angle.
    It never crossed my mind.
    Sure as eggs is eggs, eh?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,129
    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is basically a Tory version of David Miliband and Gordon Brown.

    Highly intelligent, very details focused but somewhat aloof and lacking the common touch. Like them he got the top job, or tried to get the leadership in Miliband's case, at the end of their party's time in power as the public mood was going against it

    Yep. But also (unlike them) very inexperienced. This is coming through more and more. Rather than growing into being PM he seems increasingly overmatched and lightweight. I can't say I saw this coming. I thought he'd be better.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    A lot of knock on effects of the attacks on Israel to come in the next few weeks and months.

    Firstly, looks like Ukraine is shafted. GOP reps already looking to make any spending commitments prioritise Israel at the expense of Ukraine. Russia is making sure its propagandists are amplifying this - it’s the let’s cancel x and use the money to fund y tactic for the US right.

    Second, probably another refugee crisis for Europe to brace for, especially if Egypt is unwelcoming to Gaza Palestinians. And it’ll be politically toxic in Europe given the terrorist origins of what’s about to happen.

    Finally, the usual oil price response, just in time for Boreal winter. Depends how wide any conflict spreads.

    US support for Ukraine has been waning and has become a completely partisan issue, already suffering, and now there is a massive distraction event and situation much closer to many of their hearts.

    Putin will have been dreaming for a scenario like this. The worst people always find a way to prosper.
    It's dead easy for the adminstration to link Ukraine and this attack in Israel as both being aided by Iran. Then you say funding Israel and Ukraine is part of fighting a common enemy. It also happens to be broadly true.
    It's dead easy for them to link them. But politically it looks dead on arrival if they try - a majority of the GOP are dead set against further support for Ukraine, and anyone who is to become Speaker cannot support it if they are to win. Has there been any indication in the immediate aftermath that the recalcitrant voices have modulated their position even to a reluctant "Ok, I don't want to help Ukraine more but if it must be done to help Israel too, fine"?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    A lot of knock on effects of the attacks on Israel to come in the next few weeks and months.

    Firstly, looks like Ukraine is shafted. GOP reps already looking to make any spending commitments prioritise Israel at the expense of Ukraine. Russia is making sure its propagandists are amplifying this - it’s the let’s cancel x and use the money to fund y tactic for the US right.

    Second, probably another refugee crisis for Europe to brace for, especially if Egypt is unwelcoming to Gaza Palestinians. And it’ll be politically toxic in Europe given the terrorist origins of what’s about to happen.

    Finally, the usual oil price response, just in time for Boreal winter. Depends how wide any conflict spreads.

    US support for Ukraine has been waning and has become a completely partisan issue, already suffering, and now there is a massive distraction event and situation much closer to many of their hearts.

    Putin will have been dreaming for a scenario like this. The worst people always find a way to prosper.
    It's dead easy for the administration to link Ukraine and this attack in Israel as both being aided by Iran. Then you say funding Israel and Ukraine is part of fighting a common enemy. It also happens to be broadly true.
    Wouldn’t want to be working in that Iranian factory that makes the Shahed drones at the moment. Several countries will be eyeing that place up as a target.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is basically a Tory version of David Miliband and Gordon Brown.

    Highly intelligent, very details focused but somewhat aloof and lacking the common touch. Like them he got the top job, or tried to get the leadership in Miliband's case, at the end of their party's time in power as the public mood was going against it

    Yep. But also (unlike them) very inexperienced. This is coming through more and more. Rather than growing into being PM he seems increasingly overmatched and lightweight. I can't say I saw this coming. I thought he'd be better.
    He had some early wins, at least in steadying image and a few collaborative things to point to like over the NI Protocol, but the last 6 months have been a complete directionless waste. No strategy indeed, no confidence, and a lot of rather desperate flailing about.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.

    Link?

    Not disbelieving you, just slightly mind-boggled. That's a horrific number in one day
    BBC reporting Israeli government: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

    It is mind boggling. I just can't get over the intelligence failure. How on earth did they miss the preparations?
    Indeed. Look at this. Hamas preparing and rehearsing with suicide drones (which they claim they used yesterday)


    https://x.com/ragipsoylu/status/1711004576927641740?s=20

    I presume this is happening inside Gaza? Not in Iran or Lebanon. How did the Israelis not notice?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    Chances? Time to find out just how broken the American political discourse and legislative operation truly is. I fear for the answer.

    A near-term legislative response plan for the United States, if we’re serious:

    —Confirm Ambassador to Israel
    —Select a Speaker so House can work
    —End Tuberville’s hold on military appointments
    —Authorize an initial humanitarian & military aid package to Israel

    Do it this week.

    https://nitter.net/HeathMayo/status/1710917351338901780#m
  • Yup - that header sums up where we are to perfection. I'd only add that the people around Mr Sunak are also massively overestimating their abilities and for exactly the same reason
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307

    Nigelb said:

    Eyewitness account of the mass murder at the festival.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67044787

    That account does raise another question. Why was the Israeli police and IDF response so slow? You'd have expected an armed response in minutes, even if an inadequate one.
    Weren't some of the security portfolios in government being given to inexperienced Ministers from small loopy parties simply because they kept Netanyahu in power? And there has been a lot of civil unrest within Israel about what the government has been doing? That could well have had an impact.

    It might be that there were warnings / there was knowledge but it was not added together / escalated / acted on and so on. After all 9/11 seemed to come asa shock but in fact there were a lot of warnings which were ignored. Ditto for incidents here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Eyewitness account of the mass murder at the festival.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67044787

    That account does raise another question. Why was the Israeli police and IDF response so slow? You'd have expected an armed response in minutes, even if an inadequate one.
    Weren't some of the security portfolios in government being given to inexperienced Ministers from small loopy parties simply because they kept Netanyahu in power? And there has been a lot of civil unrest within Israel about what the government has been doing? That could well have had an impact.

    It might be that there were warnings / there was knowledge but it was not added together / escalated / acted on and so on. After all 9/11 seemed to come asa shock but in fact there were a lot of warnings which were ignored. Ditto for incidents here.
    Israelis are calling it "our 9/11" but I suggest it is worse than that, for Israel

    No one doubted that America would survive 9/11. It was a traumatic blow, but America is a vast, mighty country, easily able to defend itself and take revenge

    The ease with which Hamas has killed 600 Israelis in one day is a mortal threat to the Israeli state as a whole
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.

    Link?

    Not disbelieving you, just slightly mind-boggled. That's a horrific number in one day
    BBC reporting Israeli government: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

    It is mind boggling. I just can't get over the intelligence failure. How on earth did they miss the preparations?
    Indeed. Look at this. Hamas preparing and rehearsing with suicide drones (which they claim they used yesterday)


    https://x.com/ragipsoylu/status/1711004576927641740?s=20

    I presume this is happening inside Gaza? Not in Iran or Lebanon. How did the Israelis not notice?
    I find it impossible to believe they didn't but perhaps they underestimated the scale. I would put very little past Netanyahu and he will never have a better chance to achieve one of his life long ambitions. He has also brought the more liberal parties into government and is no longer dependent on nutters to even his right. Its a bit too convenient for him.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,129
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is basically a Tory version of David Miliband and Gordon Brown.

    Highly intelligent, very details focused but somewhat aloof and lacking the common touch. Like them he got the top job, or tried to get the leadership in Miliband's case, at the end of their party's time in power as the public mood was going against it

    Yep. But also (unlike them) very inexperienced. This is coming through more and more. Rather than growing into being PM he seems increasingly overmatched and lightweight. I can't say I saw this coming. I thought he'd be better.
    He had some early wins, at least in steadying image and a few collaborative things to point to like over the NI Protocol, but the last 6 months have been a complete directionless waste. No strategy indeed, no confidence, and a lot of rather desperate flailing about.
    Spooked by the polls, I think. He's Desperate Dan now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.

    Link?

    Not disbelieving you, just slightly mind-boggled. That's a horrific number in one day
    BBC reporting Israeli government: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

    It is mind boggling. I just can't get over the intelligence failure. How on earth did they miss the preparations?
    Indeed. Look at this. Hamas preparing and rehearsing with suicide drones (which they claim they used yesterday)


    https://x.com/ragipsoylu/status/1711004576927641740?s=20

    I presume this is happening inside Gaza? Not in Iran or Lebanon. How did the Israelis not notice?
    I find it impossible to believe they didn't but perhaps they underestimated the scale. I would put very little past Netanyahu and he will never have a better chance to achieve one of his life long ambitions. He has also brought the more liberal parties into government and is no longer dependent on nutters to even his right. Its a bit too convenient for him.
    I know what you mean.... but no. Don't really buy it. Netanyahu is a devious and careerist skunk but I don't think he would sacrifice the lives of many hundreds of Israelis like this. And for what? So he can be be embroiled in a terrible war, and then get sacked at the end for his incompetence in allowing the attacks in the first place?

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    I remember people lauding Sunak for being the kind of guy who would make his own Excel spreadsheet to work things out and thinking - and maybe saying on here - that that was actually a really negative signal.
  • kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is basically a Tory version of David Miliband and Gordon Brown.

    Highly intelligent, very details focused but somewhat aloof and lacking the common touch. Like them he got the top job, or tried to get the leadership in Miliband's case, at the end of their party's time in power as the public mood was going against it

    Yep. But also (unlike them) very inexperienced. This is coming through more and more. Rather than growing into being PM he seems increasingly overmatched and lightweight. I can't say I saw this coming. I thought he'd be better.
    He had some early wins, at least in steadying image and a few collaborative things to point to like over the NI Protocol, but the last 6 months have been a complete directionless waste. No strategy indeed, no confidence, and a lot of rather desperate flailing about.
    It's the flailing that's most worrying.

    Major and Brown both had the sang-froid to hold things together as the ship sank; both 1996/7 and 2009/10 were moderately successful bits of government. The trouble was what came before.

    Sunak doesn't seem to have that ability; the last month or so of whirling dervish looks more like a panic reaction to to things going badly. I don't know how he would cope with the "tell me about a time you failed" interview question.

    And the trouble with that is that the flailing is more likely to make things worse than better.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023

    I remember people lauding Sunak for being the kind of guy who would make his own Excel spreadsheet to work things out and thinking - and maybe saying on here - that that was actually a really negative signal.

    I don't think there was any thinking involved in last weeks scattergun set of announcements...that was the problem.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    A lot of knock on effects of the attacks on Israel to come in the next few weeks and months.

    Firstly, looks like Ukraine is shafted. GOP reps already looking to make any spending commitments prioritise Israel at the expense of Ukraine. Russia is making sure its propagandists are amplifying this - it’s the let’s cancel x and use the money to fund y tactic for the US right.

    Second, probably another refugee crisis for Europe to brace for, especially if Egypt is unwelcoming to Gaza Palestinians. And it’ll be politically toxic in Europe given the terrorist origins of what’s about to happen.

    Finally, the usual oil price response, just in time for Boreal winter. Depends how wide any conflict spreads.

    US support for Ukraine has been waning and has become a completely partisan issue, already suffering, and now there is a massive distraction event and situation much closer to many of their hearts.

    Putin will have been dreaming for a scenario like this. The worst people always find a way to prosper.
    It's dead easy for the administration to link Ukraine and this attack in Israel as both being aided by Iran. Then you say funding Israel and Ukraine is part of fighting a common enemy. It also happens to be broadly true.
    Wouldn’t want to be working in that Iranian factory that makes the Shahed drones at the moment. Several countries will be eyeing that place up as a target.
    They can eye it up all they like but its 200km inland from the Gulf at Isfahan so there's only one country that has the capability to flatten it. I don't think JRB wants a war with Iran in an election year.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    Scum.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    There is a pro-Palestine rally in London tomorrow where we can see more of the types of people who applaud the massacre of innocent festival goers, old people at bus stops and the rape and torture of girls.

    And then we'll get some guff about hate crimes......
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Someone has added yesterday's attacks to the Wiki page on terror attacks in history

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_and_other_violent_events_by_death_toll

    For context, this is the 6th or 7th worst terror strike ever, and - given Israel's relatively tiny population - it seems to be the absolute worst: in terms of death per capita

  • Cyclefree said:

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    There is a pro-Palestine rally in London tomorrow where we can see more of the types of people who applaud the massacre of innocent festival goers, old people at bus stops and the rape and torture of girls.

    And then we'll get some guff about hate crimes......
    I wonder if they will get the same treatment as the wanker who waved the dead kid at the footy? I suspect not.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    Probably going to be fewer flags on the floor than in his day.

    I dread to think to sorts of things being said on twitter right now, but I can kind of guess from this thread by the British-Lebanese journalist Oz Katerji.

    I know I should just ignore it but it makes me very angry when I say that killing civilians is wrong and then idiots who don’t know the first thing about my career reply “these people don’t care when Israel does it”.

    Yes I do. I cared long before you even heard of the conflict.

    I’m Lebanese. I was born into a pro-Palestine family. I have spent my entire life advocating for the creation of a Palestinian state and opposing the occupation. I am frequently attacked on here for being a pro-Palestinian Muslim.

    I oppose antisemitism & murdering civilians for the same reasons I support Palestinian statehood & oppose the occupation. I believe in justice, democracy and human rights. That’s the entire reason I chose to become a war journalist. It’s literally all that drives me as a person.

    I’m sorry that you feel that rape and child murder is justified when the side you support does it. I don’t. It’s always wrong. I will always speak out against it, no matter who does it, no matter what it costs me.

    It doesn’t matter how much you scream at me for doing so.

    https://nitter.net/OzKaterji?cursor=DAABCgABF77FOx___-kKAAIXvcYoWhYQwwgAAwAAAAIAAA
  • Sandpit said:

    Ooh, India two runs for three wickets.

    Britain should have taught Indians how to play football :lol:
    I know an old joke about Indians and football, but probably not suitable for telling.
    Published and be damned!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.

    Link?

    Not disbelieving you, just slightly mind-boggled. That's a horrific number in one day
    BBC reporting Israeli government: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

    It is mind boggling. I just can't get over the intelligence failure. How on earth did they miss the preparations?
    Indeed. Look at this. Hamas preparing and rehearsing with suicide drones (which they claim they used yesterday)


    https://x.com/ragipsoylu/status/1711004576927641740?s=20

    I presume this is happening inside Gaza? Not in Iran or Lebanon. How did the Israelis not notice?
    I find it impossible to believe they didn't but perhaps they underestimated the scale. I would put very little past Netanyahu and he will never have a better chance to achieve one of his life long ambitions. He has also brought the more liberal parties into government and is no longer dependent on nutters to even his right. Its a bit too convenient for him.
    I know what you mean.... but no. Don't really buy it. Netanyahu is a devious and careerist skunk but I don't think he would sacrifice the lives of many hundreds of Israelis like this. And for what? So he can be be embroiled in a terrible war, and then get sacked at the end for his incompetence in allowing the attacks in the first place?

    I agree he was not contemplating anything like this. But an excuse to demilitarise, and even depopulate Gaza? He would have wanted that, a lot.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    A lot of knock on effects of the attacks on Israel to come in the next few weeks and months.

    Firstly, looks like Ukraine is shafted. GOP reps already looking to make any spending commitments prioritise Israel at the expense of Ukraine. Russia is making sure its propagandists are amplifying this - it’s the let’s cancel x and use the money to fund y tactic for the US right.

    Second, probably another refugee crisis for Europe to brace for, especially if Egypt is unwelcoming to Gaza Palestinians. And it’ll be politically toxic in Europe given the terrorist origins of what’s about to happen.

    Finally, the usual oil price response, just in time for Boreal winter. Depends how wide any conflict spreads.

    US support for Ukraine has been waning and has become a completely partisan issue, already suffering, and now there is a massive distraction event and situation much closer to many of their hearts.

    Putin will have been dreaming for a scenario like this. The worst people always find a way to prosper.
    It's dead easy for the administration to link Ukraine and this attack in Israel as both being aided by Iran. Then you say funding Israel and Ukraine is part of fighting a common enemy. It also happens to be broadly true.
    Wouldn’t want to be working in that Iranian factory that makes the Shahed drones at the moment. Several countries will be eyeing that place up as a target.
    They can eye it up all they like but its 200km inland from the Gulf at Isfahan so there's only one country that has the capability to flatten it. I don't think JRB wants a war with Iran in an election year.
    He might do if he's behind in the polls.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077

    Cyclefree said:

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    There is a pro-Palestine rally in London tomorrow where we can see more of the types of people who applaud the massacre of innocent festival goers, old people at bus stops and the rape and torture of girls.

    And then we'll get some guff about hate crimes......
    I wonder if they will get the same treatment as the wanker who waved the dead kid at the footy? I suspect not.
    There will be some well meaning concern about overreaction, preventing reaction.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    kle4 said:

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    Probably going to be fewer flags on the floor than in his day.

    I dread to think to sorts of things being said on twitter right now, but I can kind of guess from this thread by the British-Lebanese journalist Oz Katerji.

    I know I should just ignore it but it makes me very angry when I say that killing civilians is wrong and then idiots who don’t know the first thing about my career reply “these people don’t care when Israel does it”.

    Yes I do. I cared long before you even heard of the conflict.

    I’m Lebanese. I was born into a pro-Palestine family. I have spent my entire life advocating for the creation of a Palestinian state and opposing the occupation. I am frequently attacked on here for being a pro-Palestinian Muslim.

    I oppose antisemitism & murdering civilians for the same reasons I support Palestinian statehood & oppose the occupation. I believe in justice, democracy and human rights. That’s the entire reason I chose to become a war journalist. It’s literally all that drives me as a person.

    I’m sorry that you feel that rape and child murder is justified when the side you support does it. I don’t. It’s always wrong. I will always speak out against it, no matter who does it, no matter what it costs me.

    It doesn’t matter how much you scream at me for doing so.

    https://nitter.net/OzKaterji?cursor=DAABCgABF77FOx___-kKAAIXvcYoWhYQwwgAAwAAAAIAAA
    An LSE academic was cheering on the attacks yesterday. She's a lecturer in "post colonialist studies" as if you hadn't guessed

    Today she has deleted her Twitter account. I wonder if she will keep her job. I hope not. Fuck these people

    That's an eloquent statement by Oz Katerji
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    Probably going to be fewer flags on the floor than in his day.

    I dread to think to sorts of things being said on twitter right now, but I can kind of guess from this thread by the British-Lebanese journalist Oz Katerji.

    I know I should just ignore it but it makes me very angry when I say that killing civilians is wrong and then idiots who don’t know the first thing about my career reply “these people don’t care when Israel does it”.

    Yes I do. I cared long before you even heard of the conflict.

    I’m Lebanese. I was born into a pro-Palestine family. I have spent my entire life advocating for the creation of a Palestinian state and opposing the occupation. I am frequently attacked on here for being a pro-Palestinian Muslim.

    I oppose antisemitism & murdering civilians for the same reasons I support Palestinian statehood & oppose the occupation. I believe in justice, democracy and human rights. That’s the entire reason I chose to become a war journalist. It’s literally all that drives me as a person.

    I’m sorry that you feel that rape and child murder is justified when the side you support does it. I don’t. It’s always wrong. I will always speak out against it, no matter who does it, no matter what it costs me.

    It doesn’t matter how much you scream at me for doing so.

    https://nitter.net/OzKaterji?cursor=DAABCgABF77FOx___-kKAAIXvcYoWhYQwwgAAwAAAAIAAA
    An LSE academic was cheering on the attacks yesterday. She's a lecturer in "post colonialist studies" as if you hadn't guessed

    Today she has deleted her Twitter account. I wonder if she will keep her job. I hope not. Fuck these people

    That's an eloquent statement by Oz Katerji
    And to think a couple of weeks ago the airwaves were jammed with the attention seeking antics of Lawrence Fox saying he wouldn't shag a journalist....and that was the most outrageous of outrageous things anybody could say.

    Do we need to shut down the LSE? They do have quite a record of these sort of matters e.g Gaddafi scandal...and of course where did the person responsible end up Natwest / Coutts....
  • Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    British politics is so BEIGE

    John Major was quite exciting compared to today's politicians.
    He really wasn't. A nice man who liked his cricket, a warm beer and a night in with a Currie. That is the definition of beige.
    Don't forget the soap box!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 600 Israelis now reported as killed. They've fought entire wars without casualties like that. Horrendous.

    Link?

    Not disbelieving you, just slightly mind-boggled. That's a horrific number in one day
    BBC reporting Israeli government: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

    It is mind boggling. I just can't get over the intelligence failure. How on earth did they miss the preparations?
    Indeed. Look at this. Hamas preparing and rehearsing with suicide drones (which they claim they used yesterday)


    https://x.com/ragipsoylu/status/1711004576927641740?s=20

    I presume this is happening inside Gaza? Not in Iran or Lebanon. How did the Israelis not notice?
    I find it impossible to believe they didn't but perhaps they underestimated the scale. I would put very little past Netanyahu and he will never have a better chance to achieve one of his life long ambitions. He has also brought the more liberal parties into government and is no longer dependent on nutters to even his right. Its a bit too convenient for him.
    I know what you mean.... but no. Don't really buy it. Netanyahu is a devious and careerist skunk but I don't think he would sacrifice the lives of many hundreds of Israelis like this. And for what? So he can be be embroiled in a terrible war, and then get sacked at the end for his incompetence in allowing the attacks in the first place?

    I agree he was not contemplating anything like this. But an excuse to demilitarise, and even depopulate Gaza? He would have wanted that, a lot.
    One upside of this horror is that he is surely finished. When the "dust settles" Israelis will want a brutal reckoning with their failed security regime, and Netanyahu won't escape the blame
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Cyclefree said:

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    There is a pro-Palestine rally in London tomorrow where we can see more of the types of people who applaud the massacre of innocent festival goers, old people at bus stops and the rape and torture of girls.

    And then we'll get some guff about hate crimes......
    I wonder if they will get the same treatment as the wanker who waved the dead kid at the footy? I suspect not.
    I think part of the reason the authorities let such events go ahead is to gather intelligence. I assume they will have cameras galore watching the terrorism supporters and the mobile traffic to base stations will be examined to identify people who should be on a watch list.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    Probably going to be fewer flags on the floor than in his day.

    I dread to think to sorts of things being said on twitter right now, but I can kind of guess from this thread by the British-Lebanese journalist Oz Katerji.

    I know I should just ignore it but it makes me very angry when I say that killing civilians is wrong and then idiots who don’t know the first thing about my career reply “these people don’t care when Israel does it”.

    Yes I do. I cared long before you even heard of the conflict.

    I’m Lebanese. I was born into a pro-Palestine family. I have spent my entire life advocating for the creation of a Palestinian state and opposing the occupation. I am frequently attacked on here for being a pro-Palestinian Muslim.

    I oppose antisemitism & murdering civilians for the same reasons I support Palestinian statehood & oppose the occupation. I believe in justice, democracy and human rights. That’s the entire reason I chose to become a war journalist. It’s literally all that drives me as a person.

    I’m sorry that you feel that rape and child murder is justified when the side you support does it. I don’t. It’s always wrong. I will always speak out against it, no matter who does it, no matter what it costs me.

    It doesn’t matter how much you scream at me for doing so.

    https://nitter.net/OzKaterji?cursor=DAABCgABF77FOx___-kKAAIXvcYoWhYQwwgAAwAAAAIAAA
    An LSE academic was cheering on the attacks yesterday. She's a lecturer in "post colonialist studies" as if you hadn't guessed

    Today she has deleted her Twitter account. I wonder if she will keep her job. I hope not. Fuck these people

    That's an eloquent statement by Oz Katerji
    He has what I might describe as Leon-esque bluntness to him I have observed. He's no fan of the Tories, despises Corbyn, and no doubt has opinions that will rub people up the wrong way, but he also doesn't equivocate about attacking his 'side' if he thinks they warrant it. You don't have to have been a supporter of the Israeli government's actions for a long time to condemn what has happened after all.

    I'd be astonished to find a 'post-colonial' academic who did not share that kind of thought to be perfectly honest. Anything they have deleted their account for now I'd be very confident everyone she worked with already knew she was for and had said publicly many times before.
  • Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    Hi Jezza, you do know that your beloved Russia is illegally occupying more than TWENTY times as much land as Israel is?


  • Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    You say Jezza cult in action but even the Daily Mail says it is not linked to Labour, and only that it "sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader". It's a bit weak.
  • Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    Probably going to be fewer flags on the floor than in his day.

    I dread to think to sorts of things being said on twitter right now, but I can kind of guess from this thread by the British-Lebanese journalist Oz Katerji.

    I know I should just ignore it but it makes me very angry when I say that killing civilians is wrong and then idiots who don’t know the first thing about my career reply “these people don’t care when Israel does it”.

    Yes I do. I cared long before you even heard of the conflict.

    I’m Lebanese. I was born into a pro-Palestine family. I have spent my entire life advocating for the creation of a Palestinian state and opposing the occupation. I am frequently attacked on here for being a pro-Palestinian Muslim.

    I oppose antisemitism & murdering civilians for the same reasons I support Palestinian statehood & oppose the occupation. I believe in justice, democracy and human rights. That’s the entire reason I chose to become a war journalist. It’s literally all that drives me as a person.

    I’m sorry that you feel that rape and child murder is justified when the side you support does it. I don’t. It’s always wrong. I will always speak out against it, no matter who does it, no matter what it costs me.

    It doesn’t matter how much you scream at me for doing so.

    https://nitter.net/OzKaterji?cursor=DAABCgABF77FOx___-kKAAIXvcYoWhYQwwgAAwAAAAIAAA
    An LSE academic was cheering on the attacks yesterday. She's a lecturer in "post colonialist studies" as if you hadn't guessed

    Today she has deleted her Twitter account. I wonder if she will keep her job. I hope not. Fuck these people

    That's an eloquent statement by Oz Katerji
    I wonder what happened to the Free Speech absolutist Leon who abhorred cancel culture?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077
    edited October 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    A lot of knock on effects of the attacks on Israel to come in the next few weeks and months.

    Firstly, looks like Ukraine is shafted. GOP reps already looking to make any spending commitments prioritise Israel at the expense of Ukraine. Russia is making sure its propagandists are amplifying this - it’s the let’s cancel x and use the money to fund y tactic for the US right.

    Second, probably another refugee crisis for Europe to brace for, especially if Egypt is unwelcoming to Gaza Palestinians. And it’ll be politically toxic in Europe given the terrorist origins of what’s about to happen.

    Finally, the usual oil price response, just in time for Boreal winter. Depends how wide any conflict spreads.

    US support for Ukraine has been waning and has become a completely partisan issue, already suffering, and now there is a massive distraction event and situation much closer to many of their hearts.

    Putin will have been dreaming for a scenario like this. The worst people always find a way to prosper.
    It's dead easy for the administration to link Ukraine and this attack in Israel as both being aided by Iran. Then you say funding Israel and Ukraine is part of fighting a common enemy. It also happens to be broadly true.
    Wouldn’t want to be working in that Iranian factory that makes the Shahed drones at the moment. Several countries will be eyeing that place up as a target.
    They can eye it up all they like but its 200km inland from the Gulf at Isfahan so there's only one country that has the capability to flatten it. I don't think JRB wants a war with Iran in an election year.
    I saw Top Gun: Maverick, in and out no problem, no fuss.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Jezza cult in action....

    Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists have 'ascended to martyrdom'

    More than 100 people attended the event at The World Transformed, a left wing festival that is not officially linked to Labour but which sprang up while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

    Probably going to be fewer flags on the floor than in his day.

    I dread to think to sorts of things being said on twitter right now, but I can kind of guess from this thread by the British-Lebanese journalist Oz Katerji.

    I know I should just ignore it but it makes me very angry when I say that killing civilians is wrong and then idiots who don’t know the first thing about my career reply “these people don’t care when Israel does it”.

    Yes I do. I cared long before you even heard of the conflict.

    I’m Lebanese. I was born into a pro-Palestine family. I have spent my entire life advocating for the creation of a Palestinian state and opposing the occupation. I am frequently attacked on here for being a pro-Palestinian Muslim.

    I oppose antisemitism & murdering civilians for the same reasons I support Palestinian statehood & oppose the occupation. I believe in justice, democracy and human rights. That’s the entire reason I chose to become a war journalist. It’s literally all that drives me as a person.

    I’m sorry that you feel that rape and child murder is justified when the side you support does it. I don’t. It’s always wrong. I will always speak out against it, no matter who does it, no matter what it costs me.

    It doesn’t matter how much you scream at me for doing so.

    https://nitter.net/OzKaterji?cursor=DAABCgABF77FOx___-kKAAIXvcYoWhYQwwgAAwAAAAIAAA
    An LSE academic was cheering on the attacks yesterday. She's a lecturer in "post colonialist studies" as if you hadn't guessed

    Today she has deleted her Twitter account. I wonder if she will keep her job. I hope not. Fuck these people

    That's an eloquent statement by Oz Katerji
    I wonder what happened to the Free Speech absolutist Leon who abhorred cancel culture?
    There is quite a difference between cancelling someone for "liking" an allegedly transphobic tweet by Ricky Gervais, and someone losing their job teaching kids because they exulted in the rape and murder of Jewish kids
This discussion has been closed.