That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
I haven't been watching MSM. What do people make of the BBC/Sky coverage? Obviously you don't expect truly graphic images to be shown but with say the murder of George Floyd, news organisations clearly saw the power of traumatic images.
"Nothing says "I'm fighting colonial oppression" than kidnapping a German tourist, breaking her arms and legs, killing her, stripping her corpse naked and parading it on the back of an open truck, spitting upon it while happily shouting "god is great"..."
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
Personally I would direct the blame at Iran. They use Gaza as a tool for their own purposes and plainly don't care about any of the people living there.
Sometimes I wonder whether Hamas has become a puppet organisation for Netanyahu. The timing of this is perfect, just as he was facing a popular revolt at home up pops Hamas with exactly what he needs to cling onto power.
It also benefits Iran, which also has a mutinous populace, now distracted by war abroad. And it benefits Shia Muslim jihadists everywhere, fearful that Israel was about to make a long term peace with Sunni Saudi Arabia
The people it really DOES not benefit are the raped, kidnapped and murdered Israelis of today, and the thousands of Gazans who will die in the weeks ahead. What a black, tragic, horrible mess
Some people you can just not deal with ever. Hamas are those people.
Crush them (Hamas). Crush them so they never come back.
And once that is done, the world needs to deal with Iran, a nation whose leaders are just pure evil.
Hamas have, today, shown that they are no better than ISIS. Defiling the raped bodies of women, spitting on their corpses as they exult and shriek Allahu Akhbar. It is all the same perverse and diabolical pathology: the hatred, sadism and misogyny, rolled into one murderous Islamist rage
They need to be exterminated as ISIS were exterminated. Hunt them down forever, drive them into the sea
I am sure Sunil will be on here soon to say how they are misunderstood and they are not to blame.
Yes I would condemn heinous acts most vigorously. But collective punishment is not the answer. Not all Palestinians are rapists, agree?
It definitely isn’t any sort of answer. Soon as you start viewing a whole people as evil you're in the sewer.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Hamas are exceptionally backward, and Israel is unfortunately also increasingly run by religious fanatics, who will soon outnumber all else in population. Iran is also a disgustingly backward regime.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Personally I would direct the blame at Iran. They use Gaza as a tool for their own purposes and plainly don't care about any of the people living there.
Agreed. Until the world deals with Iran, the world will be an uneasy place. I would argue Iran is far worse than Russia (and that is saying something).
Sometimes I wonder whether Hamas has become a puppet organisation for Netanyahu. The timing of this is perfect, just as he was facing a popular revolt at home up pops Hamas with exactly what he needs to cling onto power.
It also benefits Iran, which also has a mutinous populace, now distracted by war abroad. And it benefits Shia Muslim jihadists everywhere, fearful that Israel was about to make a long term peace with Sunni Saudi Arabia
The people it really DOES not benefit are the raped, kidnapped and murdered Israelis of today, and the thousands of Gazans who will die in the weeks ahead. What a black, tragic, horrible mess
Some people you can just not deal with ever. Hamas are those people.
Crush them (Hamas). Crush them so they never come back.
And once that is done, the world needs to deal with Iran, a nation whose leaders are just pure evil.
Hamas have, today, shown that they are no better than ISIS. Defiling the raped bodies of women, spitting on their corpses as they exult and shriek Allahu Akhbar. It is all the same perverse and diabolical pathology: the hatred, sadism and misogyny, rolled into one murderous Islamist rage
They need to be exterminated as ISIS were exterminated. Hunt them down forever, drive them into the sea
I am sure Sunil will be on here soon to say how they are misunderstood and they are not to blame.
Yes I would condemn heinous acts most vigorously. But collective punishment is not the answer. Not all Palestinians are rapists, agree?
It definitely isn’t any sort of answer. Soon as you start viewing a whole people as evil you're in the sewer.
We had to define ALL Germans as enemies, or potential enemies, in World War 2. We also liberally slaughtered them in bombing campaigns, just for being in Germany. We had to do this, so as to win the war, not least because they were eager to do the same to us, if we didn't get there first. Indeed they started the war - and the bombing
Sometimes in war you have to make the definition of "enemy" quite broad
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Hamas are exceptionally backward, and Israel is unfortunately also increasingly run by religious fanatics, who will soon outnumber all else in population. Iran is also a disgusting backward regime.
The great tragedy is that they are all places with such amazing potential. Iran is Persia, one of the oldest and noblest civilisations on earth, which long pre-dates Islam
Israel is home to the Jews, probably the cleverest people on earth. Their nearest relatives are.... the Palestinians
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi. If that's not hate speech, I don't know what is.
Out of interest, what would your attitude be nowadays if you yourself were Palestinian, let's say living in Gaza or the West Bank?
The Grand Mufti's successors are Hamas. But interesting you think Hamas and Palestinians are interchangeable.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
"The Fatah–Hamas conflict (Arabic: النزاع بين فتح وحماس an-Nizāʿ bayna Fataḥ wa-Ḥamās) is an ongoing political and strategic conflict between Fatah and Hamas, the two main Palestinian political parties in the Palestinian territories, leading to the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip in June 2007. The reconciliation process and unification of Hamas and Fatah administrations remains unfinalized and the situation is deemed a frozen conflict.
The Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizens' Rights has found that over 600 Palestinians were killed in the fighting from January 2006 to May 2007.[14] Dozens more were killed or executed in the following years as part of the conflict." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_conflict As I recall, Hamas executed some PLO supporters by throwing them out of windows.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
Do Palestinians recognise the right of Israel to exist?
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
Do Palestinians recognise the right of Israel to exist?
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
You're wasting your time, Sunil. When Israelis butcher and kill, they are exercising their right to defend themselves. When Palestinians butcher and kill, they demonstrate that they are all devils who must be exterminated. Got it?
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Hamas are exceptionally backward, and Israel is unfortunately also increasingly run by religious fanatics, who will soon outnumber all else in population. Iran is also a disgusting backward regime.
The great tragedy is that they are all places with such amazing potential. Iran is Persia, one of the oldest and noblest civilisations on earth, which long pre-dates Islam
Israel is home to the Jews, probably the cleverest people on earth. Their nearest relatives are.... the Palestinians
God is a tragedian
Irony is of course Persia's Cyrus liberated the Jews from slavery by the Babylonians.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
It was the Arabs that tried to exterminate the Jews in 1948 - and since with Hamas continuing that track record.
Its not like the attempted genocide of the Jews finished in 1945.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution, perhaps mistakenly after Hamas took control of Gaza.)
You are right that Hamas remains opposed.
Israel has begun negotiations in the past. However, recent Israeli governments have effectively dropped the idea. There are more in the current government who favour a 1 state (Israel) and no Palestine solution.
Hardliners on one side encourage hardliners on the other side in a vicious circle.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
Fun fact - the Gaza strip is slightly smaller than Rutland!
Fun fact - I have been to Oakham station! Only alighted there to change trains for the "rare" service through Corby towards Kettering. Back in 2015.
Fun fact - Melton, Oakham and Stamford are consecutive stops on the Birmingham to Stansted line, and each is in a different county.
Stamford is delightful, Melton is a bit rough. Never been to Oakham.
Melton is fine. The Pedigree Petfoods factory next to the railway station doesn't give the best impression. Oakham is a bit boring. Uppingham is the best town in Rutland. I agree Stamford is a delight.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
The British refused to let Jewish settlers go to Palestine because they were concerned about the internal order effect, particularly that the Arabs would oppose Jewish settlement.
So if the British had let the Jewish immigrants in, then the Arabs would have complained the British were trying to overwhelm their land with Jewish settlers.
But, hey ho, it is not Hamas' fault, it is the Brits' fault for all of this....God, don't you people get tired of blaming the British for everything?
PS I would guess your percentages are, shall we say, slightly optimistic
Hamas are exceptionally backward, and Israel is unfortunately also increasingly run by religious fanatics, who will soon outnumber all else in population. Iran is also a disgusting backward regime.
The great tragedy is that they are all places with such amazing potential. Iran is Persia, one of the oldest and noblest civilisations on earth, which long pre-dates Islam
Israel is home to the Jews, probably the cleverest people on earth. Their nearest relatives are.... the Palestinians
God is a tragedian
Irony is of course Persia's Cyrus liberated the Jews from slavery by the Babylonians.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
Do Palestinians recognise the right of Israel to exist?
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
Do Palestinians recognise the right of Israel to exist?
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
You're wasting your time, Sunil. When Israelis butcher and kill, they are exercising their right to defend themselves. When Palestinians butcher and kill, they demonstrate that they are all devils who must be exterminated. Got it?
Israel is the one defending themselves, yes.
The Arabs have multiple states they can live in. No reason they can't live in Egypt or Jordan like they did from 1948 onwards.
Of course if Israel is generous and lets them have yet another state in the land Israel won in a defensive war, then that would be very kind of Israel. Not that anyone shows gratitude.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
Fun fact - the Gaza strip is slightly smaller than Rutland!
Fun fact - I have been to Oakham station! Only alighted there to change trains for the "rare" service through Corby towards Kettering. Back in 2015.
Fun fact - Melton, Oakham and Stamford are consecutive stops on the Birmingham to Stansted line, and each is in a different county.
Stamford is delightful, Melton is a bit rough. Never been to Oakham.
Melton is fine. The Pedigree Petfoods factory next to the railway station doesn't give the best impression. Oakham is a bit boring. Uppingham is the best town in Rutland. I agree Stamford is a delight.
Uppingham's great - and cheapish property. But a car is essential.
Aaron Bastani @AaronBastani · 2m The chaos variable: Nigel Farage running with a party to the right of the Tories - guaranteeing they get fewer than 100 seats at the next election.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
Personally I would direct the blame at Iran. They use Gaza as a tool for their own purposes and plainly don't care about any of the people living there.
One good point I saw was that you probably aren't having paragliding lesson in the Gaza Strip. Iran manufactures and the IRGC uses powered paragliders.
Hamas are exceptionally backward, and Israel is unfortunately also increasingly run by religious fanatics, who will soon outnumber all else in population. Iran is also a disgusting backward regime.
The great tragedy is that they are all places with such amazing potential. Iran is Persia, one of the oldest and noblest civilisations on earth, which long pre-dates Islam
Israel is home to the Jews, probably the cleverest people on earth. Their nearest relatives are.... the Palestinians
God is a tragedian
Irony is of course Persia's Cyrus liberated the Jews from slavery by the Babylonians.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
On a fairly bleak day, I am trying to rustle up some hope and discern some solution to a weeping geopolitical wound which has bedevilled the world for seven decades
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
Reform UK @reformparty_uk · 7h ➡️ Ann Widdecombe discussed the Conservative’s complete failure to govern our nation effectively, at today’s Reform UK conference.
Reform UK @reformparty_uk · 7h ➡️ Ann Widdecombe discussed the Conservative’s complete failure to govern our nation effectively, at today’s Reform UK conference.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
The British refused to let Jewish settlers go to Palestine because they were concerned about the internal order effect, particularly that the Arabs would oppose Jewish settlement.
So if the British had let the Jewish immigrants in, then the Arabs would have complained the British were trying to overwhelm their land with Jewish settlers.
But, hey ho, it is not Hamas' fault, it is the Brits' fault for all of this....God, don't you people get tired of blaming the British for everything?
PS I would guess your percentages are, shall we say, slightly optimistic
It is a simple fact that we prevented Jewish refugees from going to Palestine both before and after the war.
Indeed we shipped some back under armed guard to German concentration camps in 1947.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
On a fairly bleak day, I am trying to rustle up some hope and discern some solution to a weeping geopolitical wound which has bedevilled the world for seven decades
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
I think you're right in this one, its the only solution left.
Hamas refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, getting them out of there seems the only way to secure peace.
Reform UK @reformparty_uk · 7h ➡️ Ann Widdecombe discussed the Conservative’s complete failure to govern our nation effectively, at today’s Reform UK conference.
It's a situation where the best results all start from a different place to where we are now:
- Hamas' attack is pure terrorism targeting indiscriminately. No country can accept that risk and it is clear the military build-up within the Gaza Strip has far exceeded Israel's prior understanding.
- The Gaza Strip is tiny and incredibly densely populated. No military operation can happen there without significant civilian loss of life.
And so the circle or violence continues. I see no prospect for a 'good' outcome in the near term.
Perhaps it would be better for everyone (Israeli security, life in Gaza) if the Gaza strip was consumed into part of Egypt. It is more likely that a neighbouring Arab power can curtail things on an ongoing basis than Israel given they are seen as the enemy.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
On a fairly bleak day, I am trying to rustle up some hope and discern some solution to a weeping geopolitical wound which has bedevilled the world for seven decades
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
I don't know what you're on about. I was merely pointing out that suggesting a fellow poster go and "polish your jackboots" is offensive. I stand by that.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
The British refused to let Jewish settlers go to Palestine because they were concerned about the internal order effect, particularly that the Arabs would oppose Jewish settlement.
So if the British had let the Jewish immigrants in, then the Arabs would have complained the British were trying to overwhelm their land with Jewish settlers.
But, hey ho, it is not Hamas' fault, it is the Brits' fault for all of this....God, don't you people get tired of blaming the British for everything?
PS I would guess your percentages are, shall we say, slightly optimistic
It is a simple fact that we prevented Jewish refugees from going to Palestine both before and after the war.
Indeed we shipped some back under armed guard to German concentration camps in 1947.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
You have drunk so deeply of the stupid juice that you don”t even know to whom you’re replying. It was Tres in jackboots that you were fantasising about.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
Support for Hamas is around 1/3. About 50:50 for and against armed resistance (polling before the latest attacks). About 1/4 support a 2-state solution, about 1/4 support a 1-state solution (i.e. greater minority rights for Palestinians in a unified Israel/Palestine). 3/4 say a 2-state solution is no longer feasible because of Israeli settlement expansion.
“38% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 32% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 15% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and 14% believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.
“In a question about the main problem confronting Palestinian society today, the largest percentage, 25% (9% in the Gaz Strip and 35% in the West Bank), say it is corruption; 22% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 17% in the West Bank) say it is unemployment and poverty; 19% say it is the continuation of the occupation and settlement construction; 18% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 11% in the West Bank) say it is continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip; 10% say it is the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; and 3% say it is the weakness of the judiciary and the absence of liberties, accountability and democracy.”
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
I don't know what you're on about. I was merely pointing out that suggesting a fellow poster go and "polish your jackboots" is offensive. I stand by that.
Suggesting that the only Jewish state on the planet doesn't have a right to defend itself from people who seek to exterminate the state and Jews from the planet is also offensive.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
I don't know what you're on about. I was merely pointing out that suggesting a fellow poster go and "polish your jackboots" is offensive. I stand by that.
Good for you. I stand by the fact that Divvie can be robust and as offensive as well.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
You have drunk so deeply of the stupid juice that you don”t even know to whom you’re replying. It was Tres in jackboots that you were fantasising about.
Ah well. Apologies. Like to disagree with any of the facts about the 1930s quoted?
In estimating Palestinian beliefs, Dr. Foxy, I think you should pay more attention to the beliefs of the Hamas leadership -- and the fact that they won the legislative election in 2007.
No doubt there are at least a few in Gaza who don't think the Holocaust was a good idea, and a few who actually want peace with Israel, in spite of the decades of propaganda, including in school textbooks. But it is more likely that those who have such views have left (and of course some have been murdered by Hamas).
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
Support for Hamas is around 1/3. About 50:50 for and against armed resistance (polling before the latest attacks). About 1/4 support a 2-state solution, about 1/4 support a 1-state solution (i.e. greater minority rights for Palestinians in a unified Israel/Palestine). 3/4 say a 2-state solution is no longer feasible because of Israeli settlement expansion.
“38% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 32% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 15% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and 14% believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.
“In a question about the main problem confronting Palestinian society today, the largest percentage, 25% (9% in the Gaz Strip and 35% in the West Bank), say it is corruption; 22% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 17% in the West Bank) say it is unemployment and poverty; 19% say it is the continuation of the occupation and settlement construction; 18% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 11% in the West Bank) say it is continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip; 10% say it is the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; and 3% say it is the weakness of the judiciary and the absence of liberties, accountability and democracy.”
So a smaller percentage believe in a 2 state solution than support Hamas?
Seems like my three state solution (Israel, Egypt and Jordan being the three states) is increasingly the only option.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
I don't know what you're on about. I was merely pointing out that suggesting a fellow poster go and "polish your jackboots" is offensive. I stand by that.
Suggesting that the only Jewish state on the planet doesn't have a right to defend itself from people who seek to exterminate the state and Jews from the planet is also offensive.
And Jackboot behaviour.
Except that nobody has said any of those things, as far as I can see.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
On a fairly bleak day, I am trying to rustle up some hope and discern some solution to a weeping geopolitical wound which has bedevilled the world for seven decades
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
I think you're right in this one, its the only solution left.
Hamas refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, getting them out of there seems the only way to secure peace.
How much aid does America give Israel?
I believe it's something like $5bn a year
There are five million Palestinians. If America promised to match that Israel aid and give the same to Palestinians (in return for this population movement) that's $1000 per person per year in perpetuity. If the prize was Middle East peace (and all the prosperity that would flow from this) I bet you could get the entire international community to stump up and quintuple that, or more, because it would be worth so much more to everyone, in the long term
So every single Palestinian would get $5000+ a year: men, women, children, the old. A family might easily get $30,000 every year. At some stage this sort of money would become seriously tempting, especially when compared to the life they have now
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
Possibly, yes, that would be the best approach, and your pessimism is maybe correct.
I would say that while Bosnia is at peace, its consociationalist system isn’t working brilliantly. It remains a very divided country in which it is difficult to get things done. It’s better than the war and hopefully the situation will improve over time. Ultimately, the goal of consociationalist systems should be that they can adopt more straightforward democratic systems in due course (as how some in Northern Ireland are calling for the end to the consociational Assembly rules).
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
You have drunk so deeply of the stupid juice that you don”t even know to whom you’re replying. It was Tres in jackboots that you were fantasising about.
Ah well. Apologies. Like to disagree with any of the facts about the 1930s quoted?
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
Support for Hamas is around 1/3. About 50:50 for and against armed resistance (polling before the latest attacks). About 1/4 support a 2-state solution, about 1/4 support a 1-state solution (i.e. greater minority rights for Palestinians in a unified Israel/Palestine). 3/4 say a 2-state solution is no longer feasible because of Israeli settlement expansion.
“38% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 32% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 15% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and 14% believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.
“In a question about the main problem confronting Palestinian society today, the largest percentage, 25% (9% in the Gaz Strip and 35% in the West Bank), say it is corruption; 22% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 17% in the West Bank) say it is unemployment and poverty; 19% say it is the continuation of the occupation and settlement construction; 18% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 11% in the West Bank) say it is continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip; 10% say it is the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; and 3% say it is the weakness of the judiciary and the absence of liberties, accountability and democracy.”
That polling is not very encouraging for those trying to ell us the Gazans just want peace and don't really support Hamas. The Gazans want things which are fundamentally incompatible with Israel's view of its future and its national security
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
It was the Arabs that tried to exterminate the Jews in 1948 - and since with Hamas continuing that track record.
Its not like the attempted genocide of the Jews finished in 1945.
If was the nascent Israel that ethnically cleansed the territory they occupied, and the Israeli state that continues with illegal settlements and treats “Israeli Arabs” and Palestinians as second-class citizens.
Everyone’s been shitty to everyone else. An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution, perhaps mistakenly after Hamas took control of Gaza.)
You are right that Hamas remains opposed.
Israel has begun negotiations in the past. However, recent Israeli governments have effectively dropped the idea. There are more in the current government who favour a 1 state (Israel) and no Palestine solution.
Hardliners on one side encourage hardliners on the other side in a vicious circle.
Yep. Netanyahu is on record as saying that Israel should crush any attemt at Palestinian Statehood. Even before he said that he had made it clear what he though by promoting the illegal settlement of the West Bank.
The two state solution is dead and Netanyahu and the hardliners are just as responsible for that as Hamas.
There are no 'good' guys in this conflict. They are all, at the political level, scumbags
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
On a fairly bleak day, I am trying to rustle up some hope and discern some solution to a weeping geopolitical wound which has bedevilled the world for seven decades
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
I think you're right in this one, its the only solution left.
Hamas refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, getting them out of there seems the only way to secure peace.
How much aid does America give Israel?
I believe it's something like $5bn a year
There are five million Palestinians. If America promised to match that Israel aid and give the same to Palestinians (in return for this population movement) that's $1000 per person per year in perpetuity. If the prize was Middle East peace (and all the prosperity that would flow from this) I bet you could get the entire international community to stump up and quintuple that, or more, because it would be worth so much more to everyone, in the long term
So every single Palestinian would get $5000+ a year: men, women, children, the old. A family might easily get $30,000 every year. At some stage this sort of money would become seriously tempting, especially when compared to the life they have now
Just shower them with cash
You dont think some would take the cash and then just carry on their war from the new location?
Humans dont fit these 'neat' solutions, worthy as it is to try and think of something.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
It was the Arabs that tried to exterminate the Jews in 1948 - and since with Hamas continuing that track record.
Its not like the attempted genocide of the Jews finished in 1945.
If was the nascent Israel that ethnically cleansed the territory they occupied, and the Israeli state that continues with illegal settlements and treats “Israeli Arabs” and Palestinians as second-class citizens.
Everyone’s been shitty to everyone else. An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.
The Israeli Jews of 1947 were indeed a "tiny bit punchy" in establishing their homeland, but then this was two years after one of the most powerful nations on earth tried to murder every single Jew on the planet, so you can understand their truculence. No?
It was bad luck on the Palestinians, but then Islam has never been kind to Jews (as Hitler recognised), so maybe the Jews just got ahead of the inevitable anti-Semitic curve
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
On a fairly bleak day, I am trying to rustle up some hope and discern some solution to a weeping geopolitical wound which has bedevilled the world for seven decades
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
I think you're right in this one, its the only solution left.
Hamas refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, getting them out of there seems the only way to secure peace.
How much aid does America give Israel?
I believe it's something like $5bn a year
There are five million Palestinians. If America promised to match that Israel aid and give the same to Palestinians (in return for this population movement) that's $1000 per person per year in perpetuity. If the prize was Middle East peace (and all the prosperity that would flow from this) I bet you could get the entire international community to stump up and quintuple that, or more, because it would be worth so much more to everyone, in the long term
So every single Palestinian would get $5000+ a year: men, women, children, the old. A family might easily get $30,000 every year. At some stage this sort of money would become seriously tempting, especially when compared to the life they have now
Just shower them with cash
You dont think some would take the cash and then just carry on their war from the new location?
Humans dont fit these 'neat' solutions, worthy as it is to try and think of something.
OK then, you have a go. Or is the only option hopeless despair? And more death?
Sometimes I wonder whether Hamas has become a puppet organisation for Netanyahu. The timing of this is perfect, just as he was facing a popular revolt at home up pops Hamas with exactly what he needs to cling onto power.
It also benefits Iran, which also has a mutinous populace, now distracted by war abroad. And it benefits Shia Muslim jihadists everywhere, fearful that Israel was about to make a long term peace with Sunni Saudi Arabia
The people it really DOES not benefit are the raped, kidnapped and murdered Israelis of today, and the thousands of Gazans who will die in the weeks ahead. What a black, tragic, horrible mess
Some people you can just not deal with ever. Hamas are those people.
Crush them (Hamas). Crush them so they never come back.
And once that is done, the world needs to deal with Iran, a nation whose leaders are just pure evil.
Hamas have, today, shown that they are no better than ISIS. Defiling the raped bodies of women, spitting on their corpses as they exult and shriek Allahu Akhbar. It is all the same perverse and diabolical pathology: the hatred, sadism and misogyny, rolled into one murderous Islamist rage
They need to be exterminated as ISIS were exterminated. Hunt them down forever, drive them into the sea
I am sure Sunil will be on here soon to say how they are misunderstood and they are not to blame.
Yes I would condemn heinous acts most vigorously. But collective punishment is not the answer. Not all Palestinians are rapists, agree?
It definitely isn’t any sort of answer. Soon as you start viewing a whole people as evil you're in the sewer.
We had to define ALL Germans as enemies, or potential enemies, in World War 2. We also liberally slaughtered them in bombing campaigns, just for being in Germany. We had to do this, so as to win the war, not least because they were eager to do the same to us, if we didn't get there first. Indeed they started the war - and the bombing
Sometimes in war you have to make the definition of "enemy" quite broad
But we're not at war with Israel or Palestine. So where's any possible excuse for some PB poster viewing Israelis or Palestinians en masse as deserving of having violence meted out to them? It's deranged and driven by prejudice either way.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
Support for Hamas is around 1/3. About 50:50 for and against armed resistance (polling before the latest attacks). About 1/4 support a 2-state solution, about 1/4 support a 1-state solution (i.e. greater minority rights for Palestinians in a unified Israel/Palestine). 3/4 say a 2-state solution is no longer feasible because of Israeli settlement expansion.
“38% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 32% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 15% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and 14% believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.
“In a question about the main problem confronting Palestinian society today, the largest percentage, 25% (9% in the Gaz Strip and 35% in the West Bank), say it is corruption; 22% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 17% in the West Bank) say it is unemployment and poverty; 19% say it is the continuation of the occupation and settlement construction; 18% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 11% in the West Bank) say it is continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip; 10% say it is the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; and 3% say it is the weakness of the judiciary and the absence of liberties, accountability and democracy.”
So a smaller percentage believe in a 2 state solution than support Hamas?
Seems like my three state solution (Israel, Egypt and Jordan being the three states) is increasingly the only option.
The viability of a 2-state solution has been reduced by Israel persisting with illegal settlements in the West Bank. It seems suboptimal to encourage countries to illegally settle territory occupied by their military. If it’s OK for Israel to do it, is it OK for Russia to move people into eastern Ukraine or Abkhazia? But equally we have to deal with the facts on the ground.
In estimating Palestinian beliefs, Dr. Foxy, I think you should pay more attention to the beliefs of the Hamas leadership -- and the fact that they won the legislative election in 2007.
No doubt there are at least a few in Gaza who don't think the Holocaust was a good idea, and a few who actually want peace with Israel, in spite of the decades of propaganda, including in school textbooks. But it is more likely that those who have such views have left (and of course some have been murdered by Hamas).
Do you believe Trump represents the views of all, or even the majority, of Americans? And yet he won the Presidency a lot more recently that 2007.
In estimating Palestinian beliefs, Dr. Foxy, I think you should pay more attention to the beliefs of the Hamas leadership -- and the fact that they won the legislative election in 2007.
No doubt there are at least a few in Gaza who don't think the Holocaust was a good idea, and a few who actually want peace with Israel, in spite of the decades of propaganda, including in school textbooks. But it is more likely that those who have such views have left (and of course some have been murdered by Hamas).
That there hasn’t been an election since 2006 (not 2007) suggests to me that the statements and actions of the governing party probably have very little to do with the populace’s views.
Sometimes I wonder whether Hamas has become a puppet organisation for Netanyahu. The timing of this is perfect, just as he was facing a popular revolt at home up pops Hamas with exactly what he needs to cling onto power.
It also benefits Iran, which also has a mutinous populace, now distracted by war abroad. And it benefits Shia Muslim jihadists everywhere, fearful that Israel was about to make a long term peace with Sunni Saudi Arabia
The people it really DOES not benefit are the raped, kidnapped and murdered Israelis of today, and the thousands of Gazans who will die in the weeks ahead. What a black, tragic, horrible mess
Some people you can just not deal with ever. Hamas are those people.
Crush them (Hamas). Crush them so they never come back.
And once that is done, the world needs to deal with Iran, a nation whose leaders are just pure evil.
Hamas have, today, shown that they are no better than ISIS. Defiling the raped bodies of women, spitting on their corpses as they exult and shriek Allahu Akhbar. It is all the same perverse and diabolical pathology: the hatred, sadism and misogyny, rolled into one murderous Islamist rage
They need to be exterminated as ISIS were exterminated. Hunt them down forever, drive them into the sea
I am sure Sunil will be on here soon to say how they are misunderstood and they are not to blame.
Yes I would condemn heinous acts most vigorously. But collective punishment is not the answer. Not all Palestinians are rapists, agree?
It definitely isn’t any sort of answer. Soon as you start viewing a whole people as evil you're in the sewer.
We had to define ALL Germans as enemies, or potential enemies, in World War 2. We also liberally slaughtered them in bombing campaigns, just for being in Germany. We had to do this, so as to win the war, not least because they were eager to do the same to us, if we didn't get there first. Indeed they started the war - and the bombing
Sometimes in war you have to make the definition of "enemy" quite broad
But we're not at war with Israel or Palestine. So where's any possible excuse for some PB poster viewing Israelis or Palestinians en masse as deserving of having violence meted out to them? It's deranged and driven by prejudice either way.
I'm viewing it from the perspective of an Israeli, which is the only thing that makes sense in this debate, as it is the Gazans who have just initiated war on Israel. And it really is war. Today 200+ Israelis died and 1000s were injured and an unknown number (inc children) were captured and taken to Gaza. That is an act of war, and a brutal one, to boot. And the war continues as a third wave of Hamas rockets hits Jewish towns, right now
If you are Israeli, then, perhaps it makes sense to view all Gazans or all Palestinians as the enemy in a war, just as we viewed the Germans in 1940. That makes them all legitimate targets, to an extent
It's not very nice. And of course the converse is true, Gazans see all Israelis as enemies, and they clearly do, as we saw today, they even raped and murdered and paraded a German Jewish tourist girl, for the hell of it
Frankly, I prefer my mercenary solution over endless war and death. Stuff Palestinian mouths with gold so they go and live peacefully and prosperously in Egypt and Jordan
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution, perhaps mistakenly after Hamas took control of Gaza.)
You are right that Hamas remains opposed.
Israel has begun negotiations in the past. However, recent Israeli governments have effectively dropped the idea. There are more in the current government who favour a 1 state (Israel) and no Palestine solution.
Hardliners on one side encourage hardliners on the other side in a vicious circle.
Yep. Netanyahu is on record as saying that Israel should crush any attemt at Palestinian Statehood. Even before he said that he had made it clear what he though by promoting the illegal settlement of the West Bank.
The two state solution is dead and Netanyahu and the hardliners are just as responsible for that as Hamas.
There are no 'good' guys in this conflict. They are all, at the political level, scumbags
Yes, Hamas and Israel are just the same of course.
ורמי הביטחון יזהירו בעוד כמה דקות את שרי הקבינט: מזהים ניסיון של חמאס לרתום את ערביי ישראל למלחמה ולאחד את הזירות כמו בשומר החומות
Translated from Hebrew
The security officials will warn the cabinet ministers in a few minutes: they recognize an attempt by Hamas to harness the Israeli Arabs to war and unite the arenas as in the Guardian of the Walls
Translated from Hebrew. But not into English apparently.
Operation "Guardian of the Walls" was the Israeli defense forces (IDF)'s response to the "Sword of Jerusalem", Hamas's attack on Israel in May 2021 using rocket bombardment and raids. The current action can be thought of as a repeat of that action.
The intent of Hamas then was to "inflict losses, disrupt daily life, terrorize the population, and project power among Palestinian and regional audiences". The tweet (oh for fuck's sake) mentioned above mentions another goal, namely "harness the Israeli Arabs to war and unite the arenas" - unify the anti-Israeli forces in the region in intent, and possibly under the Hamas banner.
No the Israeli Arabs are the 21% of Israeli citizens that are Arabs. Clearly whoever wrote the tweet considers them the enemy within, despite the absence of evidence.
No - it’s a statement of fact. The intelligence services don’t deal in belief.
Hamas would like nothing more than civil strife inside Israel
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
Support for Hamas is around 1/3. About 50:50 for and against armed resistance (polling before the latest attacks). About 1/4 support a 2-state solution, about 1/4 support a 1-state solution (i.e. greater minority rights for Palestinians in a unified Israel/Palestine). 3/4 say a 2-state solution is no longer feasible because of Israeli settlement expansion.
“38% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 32% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 15% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and 14% believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.
“In a question about the main problem confronting Palestinian society today, the largest percentage, 25% (9% in the Gaz Strip and 35% in the West Bank), say it is corruption; 22% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 17% in the West Bank) say it is unemployment and poverty; 19% say it is the continuation of the occupation and settlement construction; 18% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 11% in the West Bank) say it is continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip; 10% say it is the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; and 3% say it is the weakness of the judiciary and the absence of liberties, accountability and democracy.”
That polling is not very encouraging for those trying to ell us the Gazans just want peace and don't really support Hamas. The Gazans want things which are fundamentally incompatible with Israel's view of its future and its national security
Support for a democratic Palestine is at 14% - you are right, not exactly encouraging...
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
You have drunk so deeply of the stupid juice that you don”t even know to whom you’re replying. It was Tres in jackboots that you were fantasising about.
Ah well. Apologies. Like to disagree with any of the facts about the 1930s quoted?
Never wrestle with pigs etc.
Yes, and always squirm out of the facts when you can't defend them etc.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
I don't know what you're on about. I was merely pointing out that suggesting a fellow poster go and "polish your jackboots" is offensive. I stand by that.
Suggesting that the only Jewish state on the planet doesn't have a right to defend itself from people who seek to exterminate the state and Jews from the planet is also offensive.
And Jackboot behaviour.
Israel has a perfect right to defend itself. It does not have the right to terrorise and occupy its neighbors. Much like any other country.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution, perhaps mistakenly after Hamas took control of Gaza.)
You are right that Hamas remains opposed.
Israel has begun negotiations in the past. However, recent Israeli governments have effectively dropped the idea. There are more in the current government who favour a 1 state (Israel) and no Palestine solution.
Hardliners on one side encourage hardliners on the other side in a vicious circle.
Yep. Netanyahu is on record as saying that Israel should crush any attemt at Palestinian Statehood. Even before he said that he had made it clear what he though by promoting the illegal settlement of the West Bank.
The two state solution is dead and Netanyahu and the hardliners are just as responsible for that as Hamas.
There are no 'good' guys in this conflict. They are all, at the political level, scumbags
Yes, Hamas and Israel are just the same of course.
Are you sure you are not Jeremy Corbyn?
He didn’t say Hamas and Israel are the same. He said Hamas and Bibi’s government are the same.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
On a fairly bleak day, I am trying to rustle up some hope and discern some solution to a weeping geopolitical wound which has bedevilled the world for seven decades
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
I think you're right in this one, its the only solution left.
Hamas refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, getting them out of there seems the only way to secure peace.
How much aid does America give Israel?
I believe it's something like $5bn a year
There are five million Palestinians. If America promised to match that Israel aid and give the same to Palestinians (in return for this population movement) that's $1000 per person per year in perpetuity. If the prize was Middle East peace (and all the prosperity that would flow from this) I bet you could get the entire international community to stump up and quintuple that, or more, because it would be worth so much more to everyone, in the long term
So every single Palestinian would get $5000+ a year: men, women, children, the old. A family might easily get $30,000 every year. At some stage this sort of money would become seriously tempting, especially when compared to the life they have now
Just shower them with cash
You dont think some would take the cash and then just carry on their war from the new location?
Humans dont fit these 'neat' solutions, worthy as it is to try and think of something.
OK then, you have a go. Or is the only option hopeless despair? And more death?
I fear so.
But you are right, I don't have even the vague murmurings of an answer. So maybe your 'mouth stuffing' is worth a go.
Honestly, I've spent more than half a century listening to news about Palestine and Israel kicking off every few months and it seems intractable.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
Support for Hamas is around 1/3. About 50:50 for and against armed resistance (polling before the latest attacks). About 1/4 support a 2-state solution, about 1/4 support a 1-state solution (i.e. greater minority rights for Palestinians in a unified Israel/Palestine). 3/4 say a 2-state solution is no longer feasible because of Israeli settlement expansion.
“38% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 32% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 15% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and 14% believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.
“In a question about the main problem confronting Palestinian society today, the largest percentage, 25% (9% in the Gaz Strip and 35% in the West Bank), say it is corruption; 22% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 17% in the West Bank) say it is unemployment and poverty; 19% say it is the continuation of the occupation and settlement construction; 18% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 11% in the West Bank) say it is continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip; 10% say it is the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; and 3% say it is the weakness of the judiciary and the absence of liberties, accountability and democracy.”
That polling is not very encouraging for those trying to ell us the Gazans just want peace and don't really support Hamas. The Gazans want things which are fundamentally incompatible with Israel's view of its future and its national security
Support for a democratic Palestine is at 14% - you are right, not exactly encouraging...
You are misquoting the figures. 14% say that’s the most important issue. That doesn’t mean the other 86% oppose democracy, just that they don’t put it as the first priority.
Stewart Wood @StewartWood Perfect place for Glasgow brunch on the wettest day since time began. I'm eyeing up the Bourdain Special, just to get my five-a-day in the bank. #Glasgow
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
On a fairly bleak day, I am trying to rustle up some hope and discern some solution to a weeping geopolitical wound which has bedevilled the world for seven decades
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
I think you're right in this one, its the only solution left.
Hamas refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, getting them out of there seems the only way to secure peace.
How much aid does America give Israel?
I believe it's something like $5bn a year
There are five million Palestinians. If America promised to match that Israel aid and give the same to Palestinians (in return for this population movement) that's $1000 per person per year in perpetuity. If the prize was Middle East peace (and all the prosperity that would flow from this) I bet you could get the entire international community to stump up and quintuple that, or more, because it would be worth so much more to everyone, in the long term
So every single Palestinian would get $5000+ a year: men, women, children, the old. A family might easily get $30,000 every year. At some stage this sort of money would become seriously tempting, especially when compared to the life they have now
Just shower them with cash
You dont think some would take the cash and then just carry on their war from the new location?
Humans dont fit these 'neat' solutions, worthy as it is to try and think of something.
OK then, you have a go. Or is the only option hopeless despair? And more death?
I fear so.
But you are right, I don't have even the vague murmurings of an answer. So maybe your 'mouth stuffing' is worth a go.
Honestly, I've spent more than half a century listening to news about Palestine and Israel kicking off every few months and it seems intractable.
Don't give in to despair. The Irish Question seemed intractable for much of my adult life, now it has basically gone away - partly because the Irish got rich and stopped caring so much
Affluence solves a lot of things. I am fairly sure if we could make the Palestinians rich and confortable, they would stop thinking about Jihad and the Right of Return
And now, I must abed. Tomorrow: more work, less PB. Good evening to all, and salaam
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution, perhaps mistakenly after Hamas took control of Gaza.)
You are right that Hamas remains opposed.
Israel has begun negotiations in the past. However, recent Israeli governments have effectively dropped the idea. There are more in the current government who favour a 1 state (Israel) and no Palestine solution.
Hardliners on one side encourage hardliners on the other side in a vicious circle.
Yep. Netanyahu is on record as saying that Israel should crush any attemt at Palestinian Statehood. Even before he said that he had made it clear what he though by promoting the illegal settlement of the West Bank.
The two state solution is dead and Netanyahu and the hardliners are just as responsible for that as Hamas.
There are no 'good' guys in this conflict. They are all, at the political level, scumbags
Yes, Hamas and Israel are just the same of course.
Are you sure you are not Jeremy Corbyn?
He didn’t say Hamas and Israel are the same. He said Hamas and Bibi’s government are the same.
Ok, let's change that - Hamas and the Israeli Government are the same and on the same level.
American diplomats have tried hard for such a solution.)
I think it was this thread or maybe the previous, but I already said my preferred solution would actually be a "One-State Solution", where members of both the communities could live, pray and work wherever they wanted. Something akin to Bosnia. I confess, it would be completely crazy.
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
I honestly think ethnic cleansing is the only way now. Persuade all Palestinians to move out of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt. Shower them with insane amounts of money (likewise Jordan and Egypt) so this becomes an enticing prospect for them. Then guarantee their safety and prosperity with internatianal troops and continued investment
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
Hmm. You don't think creating another couple of million refugees in the Eastern Mediterranean might cause a bit of a small boats crisis?
On a fairly bleak day, I am trying to rustle up some hope and discern some solution to a weeping geopolitical wound which has bedevilled the world for seven decades
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
I think you're right in this one, its the only solution left.
Hamas refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, getting them out of there seems the only way to secure peace.
How much aid does America give Israel?
I believe it's something like $5bn a year
There are five million Palestinians. If America promised to match that Israel aid and give the same to Palestinians (in return for this population movement) that's $1000 per person per year in perpetuity. If the prize was Middle East peace (and all the prosperity that would flow from this) I bet you could get the entire international community to stump up and quintuple that, or more, because it would be worth so much more to everyone, in the long term
So every single Palestinian would get $5000+ a year: men, women, children, the old. A family might easily get $30,000 every year. At some stage this sort of money would become seriously tempting, especially when compared to the life they have now
Just shower them with cash
You dont think some would take the cash and then just carry on their war from the new location?
Humans dont fit these 'neat' solutions, worthy as it is to try and think of something.
OK then, you have a go. Or is the only option hopeless despair? And more death?
I fear so.
But you are right, I don't have even the vague murmurings of an answer. So maybe your 'mouth stuffing' is worth a go.
Honestly, I've spent more than half a century listening to news about Palestine and Israel kicking off every few months and it seems intractable.
Don't give in to despair. The Irish Question seemed intractable for much of my adult life, now it has basically gone away - partly because the Irish got rich and stopped caring so much
Affluence solves a lot of things. I am fairly sure if we could make the Palestinians rich and confortable, they would stop thinking about Jihad and the Right of Return
And now, I must abed. Tomorrow: more work, less PB. Good evening to all, and salaam
I think that's right.
But that requires two things:
- it requires Hamas to be replaced by a nationalist (rather than religious) group - it requires Israel to believe that it is in its long term interest for Palestine to be thriving
I do not believe either of those is likely. I believe Israel - particularly the current Israeli government - believes that it is safest if Palestinians are kept poor. And I believe that while there is no realistic chance of Palestinians' meagre lot improving, then they see no downside to continuing to support a murderous bunch of thugs.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
Do Palestinians recognise the right of Israel to exist?
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
Do Palestinians recognise the right of Israel to exist?
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
You're wasting your time, Sunil. When Israelis butcher and kill, they are exercising their right to defend themselves. When Palestinians butcher and kill, they demonstrate that they are all devils who must be exterminated. Got it?
Israel is the one defending themselves, yes.
The Arabs have multiple states they can live in. No reason they can't live in Egypt or Jordan like they did from 1948 onwards.
Of course if Israel is generous and lets them have yet another state in the land Israel won in a defensive war, then that would be very kind of Israel. Not that anyone shows gratitude.
This is pretty offensive, Bart. You are calling for ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity. You are saying Palestinians are the same as Egyptians and Jordanians as you define them as all Arabs.
You support Scottish independence on the grounds of self-determination. You don’t say they’re all Brits. Palestinians and Egyptians have more cultural differences than the English and the Scottish. You wouldn’t dream of saying that Irish Catholics can be expelled from Northern Ireland because they can go live in another Irish state, the Republic. Or would you?
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
It was the Arabs that tried to exterminate the Jews in 1948 - and since with Hamas continuing that track record.
Its not like the attempted genocide of the Jews finished in 1945.
If was the nascent Israel that ethnically cleansed the territory they occupied, and the Israeli state that continues with illegal settlements and treats “Israeli Arabs” and Palestinians as second-class citizens.
Everyone’s been shitty to everyone else. An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.
That's complete bullshit.
Egypt and Transjordan tried to wipe Israel off the map and drive the Jews into the sea.
Israel on the other hand gave citizenship to Israeli Arabs and they are able to vote and be democratically elected into the Knesset.
Arabs in Israel have more of a democratic say in their government than they do in any Arab state.
Hmmm...with all the strong views about Israel and Palestine on here tonight I realise I don't know nearly enough about the history and origins of the conflict.
Can anyone point me to a balanced history of it? A book preferably, but podcasts and/or films too.
Thanks.
James Barr’s a Line in the Sand is broader than just Israel but sets out British policy well
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
It was the Arabs that tried to exterminate the Jews in 1948 - and since with Hamas continuing that track record.
Its not like the attempted genocide of the Jews finished in 1945.
If was the nascent Israel that ethnically cleansed the territory they occupied, and the Israeli state that continues with illegal settlements and treats “Israeli Arabs” and Palestinians as second-class citizens.
Everyone’s been shitty to everyone else. An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.
That's complete bullshit.
Egypt and Transjordan tried to wipe Israel off the map and drive the Jews into the sea.
Israel on the other hand gave citizenship to Israeli Arabs and they are able to vote and be democratically elected into the Knesset.
Arabs in Israel have more of a democratic say in their government than they do in any Arab state.
Also there is the not small point that many Arab countries simply do not want the Palestinians in their lands - Jordan is the classic case here but Lebanon has also been destabilised and Egypt pretty much blocks off Gaza.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
I get it.
Women and children are not innocent if they are Palestinian.
I hadn't realised it was so simple. Thank you for enlightening me.
‘They were asking for it’
They seemed happy enough to cheer for the attacks.
So why complain about it when you are hit back hard.
Mind you, given the Scottish Nationalists were rather pally with the Nazis in the 1930s, such a comment from yourself is only to be expected...
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Hamas delenda est.
Good to know you a big big fan of genocide.
I'm not. But good to know you are a friend of people who supported the Nazis in their aim.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Deeply unpleasant, and unjustified.
I think Divvie can take it - he is quite happy to dish it out but I like how your like will dish it out but whinge that "it is not fair" when it comes back at you.
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
I don't know what you're on about. I was merely pointing out that suggesting a fellow poster go and "polish your jackboots" is offensive. I stand by that.
Suggesting that the only Jewish state on the planet doesn't have a right to defend itself from people who seek to exterminate the state and Jews from the planet is also offensive.
And Jackboot behaviour.
Israel has a perfect right to defend itself. It does not have the right to terrorise and occupy its neighbors. Much like any other country.
And its not doing so either.
It has land it got in a defensive war, just as France and Poland and others got land from Nazi Germany after WWII, which it took when it defended itself from being wiped out again.
They tried to negotiate with Arafat a land for peace deal, but Hamas deny the right for Israel's peace, so Hamas has no right to that land either.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
You've just called a whole nation of people genocidalists, offering as your premise the fact that 80 years ago a British-appointed religious official who had the same nationality became pro-Nazi.
Like to take a view on the number of Palestinians who support Israel's right to exist?
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Probably 50% plus for Israel existence, 90% opposed to Hitlers Holocaust.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
Support for Hamas is around 1/3. About 50:50 for and against armed resistance (polling before the latest attacks). About 1/4 support a 2-state solution, about 1/4 support a 1-state solution (i.e. greater minority rights for Palestinians in a unified Israel/Palestine). 3/4 say a 2-state solution is no longer feasible because of Israeli settlement expansion.
“38% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 32% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 15% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and 14% believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.
“In a question about the main problem confronting Palestinian society today, the largest percentage, 25% (9% in the Gaz Strip and 35% in the West Bank), say it is corruption; 22% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 17% in the West Bank) say it is unemployment and poverty; 19% say it is the continuation of the occupation and settlement construction; 18% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 11% in the West Bank) say it is continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip; 10% say it is the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; and 3% say it is the weakness of the judiciary and the absence of liberties, accountability and democracy.”
So a smaller percentage believe in a 2 state solution than support Hamas?
Seems like my three state solution (Israel, Egypt and Jordan being the three states) is increasingly the only option.
The viability of a 2-state solution has been reduced by Israel persisting with illegal settlements in the West Bank. It seems suboptimal to encourage countries to illegally settle territory occupied by their military. If it’s OK for Israel to do it, is it OK for Russia to move people into eastern Ukraine or Abkhazia? But equally we have to deal with the facts on the ground.
There's the slight difference that Israel got this land from a defensive war that was launched by its neighbours trying once again to wipe out Israel and exterminate the Jews.
Russia got occupied land in a war of aggression.
Poland and France both allow construction in ex-German lands. Nothing wrong with that.
That’s incredibly sad. Innocent people always pay the price .
Yes, and likely to do so again:
"A very long line of Israeli tanks is heading south. Local media say the start of a ground offensive into Gaza is imminent. Israeli PM earlier warned Palestinian to leave Gaza saying the country’s army will turn Gaza into 'ruined islands.'"
Gaza is one of the most crowded parts of the world. There is no place for the 2 million inhabitants to go to.
Their fault. They back Hamas and they provide the foot soldiers.
You reap what you sow.
You could say that regarding Israel's refusal to brook Palestinian independence.
Why grant independence to a people / nation whose whole intention is to destroy you?
After all, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very happy backing Hitler in World War II because of Hitler's hatred towards the Jews.
Hey, but if you want to back the Grand Mufti's ideological successors, that is up to you....
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
Do Palestinians recognise the right of Israel to exist?
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
Do Palestinians recognise the right of Israel to exist?
Does Israel recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist?
You're wasting your time, Sunil. When Israelis butcher and kill, they are exercising their right to defend themselves. When Palestinians butcher and kill, they demonstrate that they are all devils who must be exterminated. Got it?
Israel is the one defending themselves, yes.
The Arabs have multiple states they can live in. No reason they can't live in Egypt or Jordan like they did from 1948 onwards.
Of course if Israel is generous and lets them have yet another state in the land Israel won in a defensive war, then that would be very kind of Israel. Not that anyone shows gratitude.
This is pretty offensive, Bart. You are calling for ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity. You are saying Palestinians are the same as Egyptians and Jordanians as you define them as all Arabs.
You support Scottish independence on the grounds of self-determination. You don’t say they’re all Brits. Palestinians and Egyptians have more cultural differences than the English and the Scottish. You wouldn’t dream of saying that Irish Catholics can be expelled from Northern Ireland because they can go live in another Irish state, the Republic. Or would you?
Its Israel's land, its not Palestinian land. Israel won it fair and square from Jordan and Egypt who were seeking to wipe Israel out in a war of aggression.
If there's peace then that can reset things, but until then in a time of war then no I don't believe in self-determination. If Crimea votes to be Russian because its occupied by Russians that doesn't make the land Russian.
Well, I'm off travelling soon, and will be gone for some months.
But I won't be coming back. The fact that this is now a place for people to openly call for ethnic cleansing means it's not a place for me.
I say this not in anger, or in an accusatory tone. This is just an explanation in case there's one of you who ever wonders where that wanker Farooq went. No need to reply or to celebrate too loudly for my benefit, I won't be reading any of the replies.
Well, I'm off travelling soon, and will be gone for some months.
But I won't be coming back. The fact that this is now a place for people to openly call for ethnic cleansing means it's not a place for me.
I say this not in anger, or in an accusatory tone. This is just an explanation in case there's one of you who ever wonders where that wanker Farooq went. No need to reply or to celebrate too loudly for my benefit, I won't be reading any of the replies.
Comments
https://x.com/The_Mdawini/status/1710771666895159423?s=20
Or indeed would have been opposed to Hitler's policies towards the Jews?
What do you reckon is that percentage?
Hamas are exceptionally backward, and Israel is unfortunately also increasingly run by religious fanatics, who will soon outnumber all else in population. Iran is also a disgustingly backward regime.
Sometimes in war you have to make the definition of "enemy" quite broad
And yet, Dayton 1995 ended the Bosnian conflict, and the Serbs and Bosniaks (and Croats) are no longer lobbing rockets and/or tank shells at one another, correct? Something akin to the Dayton settlement.
The thing that unsettles me about the two-state solution, is that any Israelis living in putative Palestinian land would be seen as "settlers", "Zionists", etc., whereas any Arabs living in Israel would be seen as "fifth columists", "terrorists", etc., correct? A recipe for Apartheid by both sides, I would think.
Now go off and polish your jackboots.
Israel is home to the Jews, probably the cleverest people on earth. Their nearest relatives are.... the Palestinians
God is a tragedian
Stamford is delightful, Melton is a bit rough. Never been to Oakham.
Though quite a high percentage don't see why they should lose their land because European countires were anti-semetic and genocidal.
It wasn't the Palestinians that tried to exterminate the Jews, it was Europeans. Britain refused to allow Jewish refugees to go to Palestine, so it wasn’t just the continentals who share the blame.
The Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizens' Rights has found that over 600 Palestinians were killed in the fighting from January 2006 to May 2007.[14] Dozens more were killed or executed in the following years as part of the conflict."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_conflict
As I recall, Hamas executed some PLO supporters by throwing them out of windows.
Its not like the attempted genocide of the Jews finished in 1945.
Israel has begun negotiations in the past. However, recent Israeli governments have effectively dropped the idea. There are more in the current government who favour a 1 state (Israel) and no Palestine solution.
Hardliners on one side encourage hardliners on the other side in a vicious circle.
So if the British had let the Jewish immigrants in, then the Arabs would have complained the British were trying to overwhelm their land with Jewish settlers.
But, hey ho, it is not Hamas' fault, it is the Brits' fault for all of this....God, don't you people get tired of blaming the British for everything?
PS I would guess your percentages are, shall we say, slightly optimistic
That gives Israel borders she can secure, and ensures Isreal will always be a Jewish majority state
Is that fair on the Palestinians? No. It's cruel and unfair, and a repeat of the Nakba, but it now seems the only way out, and maybe if they all get Teslas it will be tolerable
I cannot see any other solution, and this one, however awful, is preferable to an eternal cycle of murder, war, and brutal revenge
The Arabs have multiple states they can live in. No reason they can't live in Egypt or Jordan like they did from 1948 onwards.
Of course if Israel is generous and lets them have yet another state in the land Israel won in a defensive war, then that would be very kind of Israel. Not that anyone shows gratitude.
@AaronBastani
·
2m
The chaos variable: Nigel Farage running with a party to the right of the Tories - guaranteeing they get fewer than 100 seats at the next election.
Likely? No.
Impossible? Also no.
https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1710779274079150131
And check your history - the SNP were fans of Hitler in the 1930s. If you can remind us all of the fact the Mail were fairly pro-Nazi in the 1930s, no reason why we shouldn't be reminded of the fact that the SNP was as well.
Feel free to improve on my musings. If you have a better idea - great. But it has to be in the realms of the do-able
Reform UK
@reformparty_uk
·
7h
➡️ Ann Widdecombe discussed the Conservative’s complete failure to govern our nation effectively, at today’s Reform UK conference.
Together, let’s save Britain 🇬🇧
https://twitter.com/reformparty_uk
Indeed we shipped some back under armed guard to German concentration camps in 1947.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus
Hamas refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, getting them out of there seems the only way to secure peace.
It's a situation where the best results all start from a different place to where we are now:
- Hamas' attack is pure terrorism targeting indiscriminately. No country can accept that risk and it is clear the military build-up within the Gaza Strip has far exceeded Israel's prior understanding.
- The Gaza Strip is tiny and incredibly densely populated. No military operation can happen there without significant civilian loss of life.
And so the circle or violence continues. I see no prospect for a 'good' outcome in the near term.
Perhaps it would be better for everyone (Israeli security, life in Gaza) if the Gaza strip was consumed into part of Egypt. It is more likely that a neighbouring Arab power can curtail things on an ongoing basis than Israel given they are seen as the enemy.
Support for Hamas is around 1/3. About 50:50 for and against armed resistance (polling before the latest attacks). About 1/4 support a 2-state solution, about 1/4 support a 1-state solution (i.e. greater minority rights for Palestinians in a unified Israel/Palestine). 3/4 say a 2-state solution is no longer feasible because of Israeli settlement expansion.
“38% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 32% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 15% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and 14% believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.
“In a question about the main problem confronting Palestinian society today, the largest percentage, 25% (9% in the Gaz Strip and 35% in the West Bank), say it is corruption; 22% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 17% in the West Bank) say it is unemployment and poverty; 19% say it is the continuation of the occupation and settlement construction; 18% (30% in the Gaza Strip and 11% in the West Bank) say it is continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip; 10% say it is the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; and 3% say it is the weakness of the judiciary and the absence of liberties, accountability and democracy.”
And Jackboot behaviour.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24322748/rishi-sunak-does-not-want-a-may-general-election/
Politics you can bet on. If only there were a forum for that.
No doubt there are at least a few in Gaza who don't think the Holocaust was a good idea, and a few who actually want peace with Israel, in spite of the decades of propaganda, including in school textbooks. But it is more likely that those who have such views have left (and of course some have been murdered by Hamas).
Seems like my three state solution (Israel, Egypt and Jordan being the three states) is increasingly the only option.
I believe it's something like $5bn a year
There are five million Palestinians. If America promised to match that Israel aid and give the same to Palestinians (in return for this population movement) that's $1000 per person per year in perpetuity. If the prize was Middle East peace (and all the prosperity that would flow from this) I bet you could get the entire international community to stump up and quintuple that, or more, because it would be worth so much more to everyone, in the long term
So every single Palestinian would get $5000+ a year: men, women, children, the old. A family might easily get $30,000 every year. At some stage this sort of money would become seriously tempting, especially when compared to the life they have now
Just shower them with cash
I would say that while Bosnia is at peace, its consociationalist system isn’t working brilliantly. It remains a very divided country in which it is difficult to get things done. It’s better than the war and hopefully the situation will improve over time. Ultimately, the goal of consociationalist systems should be that they can adopt more straightforward democratic systems in due course (as how some in Northern Ireland are calling for the end to the consociational Assembly rules).
Everyone’s been shitty to everyone else. An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.
NY Times.
You don't say...
The two state solution is dead and Netanyahu and the hardliners are just as responsible for that as Hamas.
There are no 'good' guys in this conflict. They are all, at the political level, scumbags
Humans dont fit these 'neat' solutions, worthy as it is to try and think of something.
It was bad luck on the Palestinians, but then Islam has never been kind to Jews (as Hitler recognised), so maybe the Jews just got ahead of the inevitable anti-Semitic curve
In other polling… only 35% of Israelis believe a 2-state solution is possible: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/26/israelis-have-grown-more-skeptical-of-a-two-state-solution/
If you are Israeli, then, perhaps it makes sense to view all Gazans or all Palestinians as the enemy in a war, just as we viewed the Germans in 1940. That makes them all legitimate targets, to an extent
It's not very nice. And of course the converse is true, Gazans see all Israelis as enemies, and they clearly do, as we saw today, they even raped and murdered and paraded a German Jewish tourist girl, for the hell of it
Frankly, I prefer my mercenary solution over endless war and death. Stuff Palestinian mouths with gold so they go and live peacefully and prosperously in Egypt and Jordan
Are you sure you are not Jeremy Corbyn?
Hamas would like nothing more than civil strife inside Israel
33% of Palestinians support a 2-state solution
34% of Israeli Jews support a 2-state solution
40% of Palestinians favour “armed struggle against Israeli occupation”
26% of Israeli Jews favour “a definitive war with the Palestinians”
31% of Palestinians and 30% of Israeli Jews favour a peace agreement as the next step
I found a separate poll that found that 60% of Israeli Arabs support a 2-state solution.
But you are right, I don't have even the vague murmurings of an answer. So maybe your 'mouth stuffing' is worth a go.
Honestly, I've spent more than half a century listening to news about Palestine and Israel kicking off every few months and it seems intractable.
Stewart Wood
@StewartWood
Perfect place for Glasgow brunch on the wettest day since time began. I'm eyeing up the Bourdain Special, just to get my five-a-day in the bank. #Glasgow
https://twitter.com/StewartWood/status/1710614946130587776
Affluence solves a lot of things. I am fairly sure if we could make the Palestinians rich and confortable, they would stop thinking about Jihad and the Right of Return
And now, I must abed. Tomorrow: more work, less PB. Good evening to all, and salaam
You agree with that?
Visegrád 24
@visegrad24
BREAKING:
Hamas supporters are gathering to celebrate at an intersection in Acton, London, Great Britain
But that requires two things:
- it requires Hamas to be replaced by a nationalist (rather than religious) group
- it requires Israel to believe that it is in its long term interest for Palestine to be thriving
I do not believe either of those is likely. I believe Israel - particularly the current Israeli government - believes that it is safest if Palestinians are kept poor. And I believe that while there is no realistic chance of Palestinians' meagre lot improving, then they see no downside to continuing to support a murderous bunch of thugs.
It's not clear where we get from here.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/07/labour-increase-wealthy-graduate-debt-fund-poorer-students/
Not going to solve the issue that not enough graduates ever repay their loan, which is a ticking time bomb.
You support Scottish independence on the grounds of self-determination. You don’t say they’re all Brits. Palestinians and Egyptians have more cultural differences than the English and the Scottish. You wouldn’t dream of saying that Irish Catholics can be expelled from Northern Ireland because they can go live in another Irish state, the Republic. Or would you?
Egypt and Transjordan tried to wipe Israel off the map and drive the Jews into the sea.
Israel on the other hand gave citizenship to Israeli Arabs and they are able to vote and be democratically elected into the Knesset.
Arabs in Israel have more of a democratic say in their government than they do in any Arab state.
It has land it got in a defensive war, just as France and Poland and others got land from Nazi Germany after WWII, which it took when it defended itself from being wiped out again.
They tried to negotiate with Arafat a land for peace deal, but Hamas deny the right for Israel's peace, so Hamas has no right to that land either.
Russia got occupied land in a war of aggression.
Poland and France both allow construction in ex-German lands. Nothing wrong with that.
Michael Stephens
@MikeRStephens
·
14h
I have worked on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for nearly twenty years.
Honestly I have no f'ing clue what's going on. What this means. Or where this heads. Literally anything is possible.
https://twitter.com/MikeRStephens/status/1710579136639414774
If there's peace then that can reset things, but until then in a time of war then no I don't believe in self-determination. If Crimea votes to be Russian because its occupied by Russians that doesn't make the land Russian.