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SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited October 2023 in General
Page not found – politicalbetting.com

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  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    Well is he?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Second like England 👿
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    No way that happened.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,004
    404th - page not found.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Exalted Cyclops, Grand Dragon, or Imperial Wizard?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,296
    Sandpit said:

    Olaf Scholz is refusing to send Ukraine powerful Taurus cruise missiles, Germany’s equivalent of Britain’s Storm Shadows, out of fear that they will be used to attack the Kerch bridge.

    The German chancellor is resisting pressure from Britain and Ukraine to deliver the missiles, the German newspaper Bild reported, despite reassurances from London that they would only be fired at targets approved by Berlin.

    Mr Scholz is particularly concerned that Kyiv would use Taurus missiles, which have a range of 310 miles, to target the Kerch bridge linking Russia with occupied Crimea, Der Spiegel reported.

    ---

    He is worried they might use them to win the war....

    Damn right they want to bomb the Kerch Bridge.

    What does Herr Scholz think that Ukraine to do with missiles, park them in the square in Kiev and have Zelensky admire them from the palace?
    He's probably concerned about the direction of German domestic politics with the prospect of people like Schroeder joining forces with the populist left.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    biggles said:

    No way that happened.

    It's a nice story to demonstrate how much effort Labour are putting into winning the seat. No-one is going to believe that Starmer is a mason, so it's another question he's doesn't have to answer too.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    Farooq said:

    Sandpit said:

    Olaf Scholz is refusing to send Ukraine powerful Taurus cruise missiles, Germany’s equivalent of Britain’s Storm Shadows, out of fear that they will be used to attack the Kerch bridge.

    The German chancellor is resisting pressure from Britain and Ukraine to deliver the missiles, the German newspaper Bild reported, despite reassurances from London that they would only be fired at targets approved by Berlin.

    Mr Scholz is particularly concerned that Kyiv would use Taurus missiles, which have a range of 310 miles, to target the Kerch bridge linking Russia with occupied Crimea, Der Spiegel reported.

    ---

    He is worried they might use them to win the war....

    Damn right they want to bomb the Kerch Bridge.

    What does Herr Scholz think that Ukraine to do with missiles, park them in the square in Kiev and have Zelensky admire them from the palace?
    He's probably concerned about the direction of German domestic politics with the prospect of people like Schroeder joining forces with the populist left.
    despite reassurances from London that they would only be fired at targets approved by Berlin

    I don't know why that would be a good thing? Takes you one giant step closer to actually being at war. It's one thing to sell weapons, but quite another to authorise targets.
    I was thinking that too. We sell all manner of deadly weaponry to various unsavoury country around the world and to my knowledge we don't pre-approve what they fire it at. Or perhaps we do, someone from a defence contractor can enlighten me.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909

    Sandpit said:

    Olaf Scholz is refusing to send Ukraine powerful Taurus cruise missiles, Germany’s equivalent of Britain’s Storm Shadows, out of fear that they will be used to attack the Kerch bridge.

    The German chancellor is resisting pressure from Britain and Ukraine to deliver the missiles, the German newspaper Bild reported, despite reassurances from London that they would only be fired at targets approved by Berlin.

    Mr Scholz is particularly concerned that Kyiv would use Taurus missiles, which have a range of 310 miles, to target the Kerch bridge linking Russia with occupied Crimea, Der Spiegel reported.

    ---

    He is worried they might use them to win the war....

    Damn right they want to bomb the Kerch Bridge.

    What does Herr Scholz think that Ukraine to do with missiles, park them in the square in Kiev and have Zelensky admire them from the palace?
    He's probably concerned about the direction of German domestic politics with the prospect of people like Schroeder joining forces with the populist left.
    The Germans haven't done anything to help Ukraine unless the Americans were also doing it. So, no tanks until the US agreed to send tanks. The same with artillery, air defence, all the way down.

    The Americans are still dithering over ATACMs, and it sounds like they will only send the cluster munition version (which wouldn't be much good against a bridge, I guess).

    This sort of approach won't help when the Republican right succeed in blocking any further US support for Ukraine. But is Europe doing anything to prepare for this possibility? Are they bollocks.

    Ukraine is doing as much as possible to locate arms production within its borders, to reduce the impact, but there's only so much they can do.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568
    FTP

    Is anyone else as puzzled asI am at the 10% LDs who read the Mail?

    I think a surprisingly (to us) large proportion of the people who still buy newspapers aren't actually interested in politics. They might go and do their democratic duty come voting day, but politics barely crosses their mind on a day-to-day basis. They only buy the newspaper for the crossword, cartoons, gossip or astrology columns.
    My Commons secretary was a Mail reader (not sure if she still is) - she liked the women's pages (and was entirely scornful of anyone who told her that she shouldn't be pandering to sexism). She was also secretary of her CLP and a lifelong Labour supporter.

    Basically people mostly read papers for enjoyment as much as to keep themselves informed.
  • I think this possibly isn't that "lovely" a story as the underlying basis may well be the old conspiracy theory that both he and Jimmy Savile were Freemasons, and that this explains why the CPS never brought a prosecution against Savile.

    Whatever one thinks of the CPS decisions at the time, the conspiracy theory is totally implausible. Firstly, there's no evidence Savile was a Freemason. He claimed to be a devout Catholic, and I understand there is a papal decree against Freemasons. It would hardly be the worst of Savile's many crimes to go against that decree, but the idea he was a member seems plucked out of thin air. Secondly, I understand Starmer is an atheist (and avoids taking oaths mentioning God), so he's also pretty unlikely to be a Freemason as they require members to profess to belief in God. Finally, even if both were, there's no evidence that either knew about the other's membership of a Lodge on the other side of the country.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,661
    Am I missing something here? Why would anybody think Keir Starmer might be a Mason?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    I think this possibly isn't that "lovely" a story as the underlying basis may well be the old conspiracy theory that both he and Jimmy Savile were Freemasons, and that this explains why the CPS never brought a prosecution against Savile.

    Whatever one thinks of the CPS decisions at the time, the conspiracy theory is totally implausible. Firstly, there's no evidence Savile was a Freemason. He claimed to be a devout Catholic, and I understand there is a papal decree against Freemasons. It would hardly be the worst of Savile's many crimes to go against that decree, but the idea he was a member seems plucked out of thin air. Secondly, I understand Starmer is an atheist (and avoids taking oaths mentioning God), so he's also pretty unlikely to be a Freemason as they require members to profess to belief in God. Finally, even if both were, there's no evidence that either knew about the other's membership of a Lodge on the other side of the country.

    Why let Occam's razor spoil the fum?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,771
    He just needed to shake sir Keir's hand
  • biggles said:

    No way that happened.

    It's a nice story to demonstrate how much effort Labour are putting into winning the seat. No-one is going to believe that Starmer is a mason, so it's another question he's doesn't have to answer too.
    There's an old tale in American politics about LBJ's first campaign for the Texas State Senate, where his Republican opponent, a farmer who appealed to rural voters, appeared to be picking up some worrying momentum.

    LBJ tells his campaign manager to start a whispering campaign to the effect that his opponent enjoyed carnal relations with his farmyard sows. His campaign manager says, "Don't be ridiculous, Lyndon, nobody will believe the guy's a pig-f***er".

    To which LBJ replies, "Of course... but let's just make the son of a bitch deny it."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,755
    Starmer's father was a machine tool maker, not a mason.

    Although when it came to making enormous and exceptional tools, Mr Starmer couldn't hold a candle to Mr and Mrs Cummings.
  • I think this possibly isn't that "lovely" a story as the underlying basis may well be the old conspiracy theory that both he and Jimmy Savile were Freemasons, and that this explains why the CPS never brought a prosecution against Savile.

    Whatever one thinks of the CPS decisions at the time, the conspiracy theory is totally implausible. Firstly, there's no evidence Savile was a Freemason. He claimed to be a devout Catholic, and I understand there is a papal decree against Freemasons. It would hardly be the worst of Savile's many crimes to go against that decree, but the idea he was a member seems plucked out of thin air. Secondly, I understand Starmer is an atheist (and avoids taking oaths mentioning God), so he's also pretty unlikely to be a Freemason as they require members to profess to belief in God. Finally, even if both were, there's no evidence that either knew about the other's membership of a Lodge on the other side of the country.

    Was there also an antisemitic slant?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory

    Sir Keir doesn't seem particularly Jewish so some might wonder why he's in cahoots with world-government forces robbing us of our freedom to drive more than once a week.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,866
    Sir K isn't the type, and IIRC is not a believer in a supreme being - which is a requirement.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557
    ydoethur said:

    Starmer's father was a machine tool maker, not a mason.

    Although when it came to making enormous and exceptional tools, Mr Starmer couldn't hold a candle to Mr and Mrs Cummings.

    None comes close, not even Black and Decker, for making exceptional tools as Stanley.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,771
    I see today's Nobel laureate in literature has a thing against full stops. Though only occasionally. Perhaps it's periodic
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,403

    Sandpit said:

    Olaf Scholz is refusing to send Ukraine powerful Taurus cruise missiles, Germany’s equivalent of Britain’s Storm Shadows, out of fear that they will be used to attack the Kerch bridge.

    The German chancellor is resisting pressure from Britain and Ukraine to deliver the missiles, the German newspaper Bild reported, despite reassurances from London that they would only be fired at targets approved by Berlin.

    Mr Scholz is particularly concerned that Kyiv would use Taurus missiles, which have a range of 310 miles, to target the Kerch bridge linking Russia with occupied Crimea, Der Spiegel reported.

    ---

    He is worried they might use them to win the war....

    Damn right they want to bomb the Kerch Bridge.

    What does Herr Scholz think that Ukraine to do with missiles, park them in the square in Kiev and have Zelensky admire them from the palace?
    He's probably concerned about the direction of German domestic politics with the prospect of people like Schroeder joining forces with the populist left.
    It's almost like some annoying PBer wrote an article IN JANUARY telling you German help would be begrudging and late, and told you the reasons for it.

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/01/29/the-intermarium/
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,069
    kinabalu said:

    Am I missing something here? Why would anybody think Keir Starmer might be a Mason?

    There are people who think he (and all major politicians and royalty) are lizards.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,755
    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Starmer's father was a machine tool maker, not a mason.

    Although when it came to making enormous and exceptional tools, Mr Starmer couldn't hold a candle to Mr and Mrs Cummings.

    None comes close, not even Black and Decker, for making exceptional tools as Stanley.
    .
    👏
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500

    I think this possibly isn't that "lovely" a story as the underlying basis may well be the old conspiracy theory that both he and Jimmy Savile were Freemasons, and that this explains why the CPS never brought a prosecution against Savile.

    Whatever one thinks of the CPS decisions at the time, the conspiracy theory is totally implausible. Firstly, there's no evidence Savile was a Freemason. He claimed to be a devout Catholic, and I understand there is a papal decree against Freemasons. It would hardly be the worst of Savile's many crimes to go against that decree, but the idea he was a member seems plucked out of thin air. Secondly, I understand Starmer is an atheist (and avoids taking oaths mentioning God), so he's also pretty unlikely to be a Freemason as they require members to profess to belief in God. Finally, even if both were, there's no evidence that either knew about the other's membership of a Lodge on the other side of the country.

    The catholic part is pure bollox
  • viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Olaf Scholz is refusing to send Ukraine powerful Taurus cruise missiles, Germany’s equivalent of Britain’s Storm Shadows, out of fear that they will be used to attack the Kerch bridge.

    The German chancellor is resisting pressure from Britain and Ukraine to deliver the missiles, the German newspaper Bild reported, despite reassurances from London that they would only be fired at targets approved by Berlin.

    Mr Scholz is particularly concerned that Kyiv would use Taurus missiles, which have a range of 310 miles, to target the Kerch bridge linking Russia with occupied Crimea, Der Spiegel reported.

    ---

    He is worried they might use them to win the war....

    Damn right they want to bomb the Kerch Bridge.

    What does Herr Scholz think that Ukraine to do with missiles, park them in the square in Kiev and have Zelensky admire them from the palace?
    He's probably concerned about the direction of German domestic politics with the prospect of people like Schroeder joining forces with the populist left.
    It's almost like some annoying PBer wrote an article IN JANUARY telling you German help would be begrudging and late, and told you the reasons for it.

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/01/29/the-intermarium/
    You said Germany's help would be "little and late". Late, granted, but with good reason given history. Hardly little though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,210
    Sandpit said:

    404th - page not found.

    Similarly.
    https://twitter.com/LouHaigh/status/1709937815256248787
    The entire page where the government pledge to 'revolutionise mass transit in Bristol' has now been deleted.

    Rishi's pledges melt away like tears in rain.
    Or piss in a pool.

  • I think this possibly isn't that "lovely" a story as the underlying basis may well be the old conspiracy theory that both he and Jimmy Savile were Freemasons, and that this explains why the CPS never brought a prosecution against Savile.

    Whatever one thinks of the CPS decisions at the time, the conspiracy theory is totally implausible. Firstly, there's no evidence Savile was a Freemason. He claimed to be a devout Catholic, and I understand there is a papal decree against Freemasons. It would hardly be the worst of Savile's many crimes to go against that decree, but the idea he was a member seems plucked out of thin air. Secondly, I understand Starmer is an atheist (and avoids taking oaths mentioning God), so he's also pretty unlikely to be a Freemason as they require members to profess to belief in God. Finally, even if both were, there's no evidence that either knew about the other's membership of a Lodge on the other side of the country.

    Was there also an antisemitic slant?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory

    Sir Keir doesn't seem particularly Jewish so some might wonder why he's in cahoots with world-government forces robbing us of our freedom to drive more than once a week.
    Isn't Starmer's family connection simply that his wife (and by extension children) are Jewish so you'd not really expect him to "seem" particularly Jewish himself?

    No doubt people can come up with any number of insane conspiracy theories, although I think the Savile one is a more straightforward way to connect Savile and Starmer via a well-known secret society of which both could in theory have been members so as to provide a sinister motive for why the CPS didn't prosecute Savile.

    In truth, it's very unlikely either was a Freemason or had any other form of personal connection and, whether or not the CPS made a reasonable decision based on the evidence presented to them at the time, Starmer appears not to have been personally involved in any charging decisions in relation to Savile.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,952
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363
    edited October 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    404th - page not found.

    Similarly.
    https://twitter.com/LouHaigh/status/1709937815256248787
    The entire page where the government pledge to 'revolutionise mass transit in Bristol' has now been deleted.

    Rishi's pledges melt away like tears in rain.
    Or piss in a pool.

    Also, "opening more railway lines: between Collumpton and Wellington" must mean quadrupling the bit of the Great Western rail line between those two places in East Devon and West [edit] Somerset respectively. But that sounds improbable. Far more likely they are the (so far as I know already funded) existing projects to reinstate the stations at those two towns.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557
    geoffw said:

    I see today's Nobel laureate in literature has a thing against full stops. Though only occasionally. Perhaps it's periodic

    the influence of cummings has no limit
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,952
    "The Conservative Party is disintegrating
    As the boundary between the Tories and the radical right breaks down, the party has morphed into something new.
    By David Gauke"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2023/10/conservative-party-disintegrating
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,078
    Worth mentioning that one of the few announcements Liz Truss made in her brief period in office was that full NPR via Bradford would go ahead.
    OK, she was inventing funding for it. But at least she tried.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    geoffw said:

    He just needed to shake sir Keir's hand

    Alternatively, he was just looking for an opportunity to see his naked chest.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,727
    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Starmer's father was a machine tool maker, not a mason.

    Although when it came to making enormous and exceptional tools, Mr Starmer couldn't hold a candle to Mr and Mrs Cummings.

    None comes close, not even Black and Decker, for making exceptional tools as Stanley.
    FatMax, I assume?
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,168
    edited October 2023
    malcolmg said:

    I think this possibly isn't that "lovely" a story as the underlying basis may well be the old conspiracy theory that both he and Jimmy Savile were Freemasons, and that this explains why the CPS never brought a prosecution against Savile.

    Whatever one thinks of the CPS decisions at the time, the conspiracy theory is totally implausible. Firstly, there's no evidence Savile was a Freemason. He claimed to be a devout Catholic, and I understand there is a papal decree against Freemasons. It would hardly be the worst of Savile's many crimes to go against that decree, but the idea he was a member seems plucked out of thin air. Secondly, I understand Starmer is an atheist (and avoids taking oaths mentioning God), so he's also pretty unlikely to be a Freemason as they require members to profess to belief in God. Finally, even if both were, there's no evidence that either knew about the other's membership of a Lodge on the other side of the country.

    The catholic part is pure bollox
    In what way?

    I appreciate Savile was a monster and what he did was utterly incompatible with any religious teaching. But he was from a Roman Catholic family, and attended church regularly. It's probable, although we will never know, that his religious faith was in some sense genuine and passed on by the mother with whom he was famously close - monsters don't see themselves as monsters, and find all sorts of ways to rationalise. It is very unusual indeed for Catholics to be Freemasons as there is a longstanding ban on it by the Church.

    So I don't put it past the old sh1t, but his Catholicism together with the fact that there is no evidence he was a Freemason combine to make me think it's all very unlikely.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Olaf Scholz is refusing to send Ukraine powerful Taurus cruise missiles, Germany’s equivalent of Britain’s Storm Shadows, out of fear that they will be used to attack the Kerch bridge.

    The German chancellor is resisting pressure from Britain and Ukraine to deliver the missiles, the German newspaper Bild reported, despite reassurances from London that they would only be fired at targets approved by Berlin.

    Mr Scholz is particularly concerned that Kyiv would use Taurus missiles, which have a range of 310 miles, to target the Kerch bridge linking Russia with occupied Crimea, Der Spiegel reported.

    ---

    He is worried they might use them to win the war....

    Damn right they want to bomb the Kerch Bridge.

    What does Herr Scholz think that Ukraine to do with missiles, park them in the square in Kiev and have Zelensky admire them from the palace?
    He's probably concerned about the direction of German domestic politics with the prospect of people like Schroeder joining forces with the populist left.
    It's almost like some annoying PBer wrote an article IN JANUARY telling you German help would be begrudging and late, and told you the reasons for it.

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/01/29/the-intermarium/
    Although it has been begrudging, and done with much hand wringing, the Germans have ended up being pretty generous with the flow of both weapons and money.

    So, you can only give yourself a 50% mark, I'm afraid.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    FPT: Andy_JS said: "The one position I don't understand is people who are fanatically anti-tobacco smoking and fanatically pro-all other types of drugs. (which seems to accurately describe the views of a lot of people in North America)."

    I can think of two differences between tobacco and most of those other drugs. First, tobacco was sold for most of the last hundred years by very large corporations -- which, here in the US, are usually distrusted by the left.

    (Tobacco is also sold here by some Indian tribes, and can be sold, as I understand it, by individuals raising their own. I think there are already a few people doing that, especially in high tax states. I don't know what the laws say about that.)

    Second, unlike most illegal drugs, nicotine can help you think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine
    (As I think I mentioned here before, some years ago my math professor girlfriend told me that some of her students smoked only during exam week. They may have been behaving rationally.)

    It would be mean to suggest that some see that as a reason tobacco should be banned.

    (A bit of history; As those familiar with WW II details may know, in that war American soldiers received a ration of 6 packs of cigarettes a week, in spite of being forbidden to smoke when that might make them a target. The first batches included too many unpopular brands, and there were protests about the choices.)

    For the record: I tried cigarettes once, when they were being given away free at college. Didn't like them, and never tried them again.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,866
    geoffw said:

    I see today's Nobel laureate in literature has a thing against full stops. Though only occasionally. Perhaps it's periodic

    Full stops are a very new invention. Texts managed to do without them until about 1500.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    404th - page not found.

    Similarly.
    https://twitter.com/LouHaigh/status/1709937815256248787
    The entire page where the government pledge to 'revolutionise mass transit in Bristol' has now been deleted.

    Rishi's pledges melt away like tears in rain.
    Or piss in a pool.

    On the contrary, people just assumed that the word "revolutionise" was meant to mean "improve". On the contrary, they meant it in the sense of "works about as well as you'd expect if there was a revolution going on".

    The page is being updated to make sure that people understand exactly what kind of revolution they're talking about.
  • rcs1000 said:

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

    Wait till you hear about push polls in your adopted country.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    algarkirk said:

    geoffw said:

    I see today's Nobel laureate in literature has a thing against full stops. Though only occasionally. Perhaps it's periodic

    Full stops are a very new invention. Texts managed to do without them until about 1500.
    Wait. People use more punctuation in their text messages in the evening. Why?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

    Come on, engage your brain. It's easy to imagine this story being put about to try to get people thinking that there's something off or secretive about another politician. Try to get a sense of him having split loyalties or being a bit weird or culty.

    I've no idea who's put this story about but it you came to me with definitive proof it was a Lib Dem or a Conservative activist doing it, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised.

    EDIT: hell, it could even be a disaffected Labour activist
    At some stage we'll need to have the 2023 version of New Labour New Danger and the devil eyes. The donkey sanctuary didn't quite cut it, nor did the Savile Smear, so there will be a concerted effort to find something of the night about SKS.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,848
    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,952
    O/T

    "Towards a Brave New World
    Huxley’s dystopian novel was a warning, but we are systematically moving in the direction he indicated.
    Tomasz Witkowski
    5 Oct 2023 · 9 min read"

    https://quillette.com/2023/10/05/towards-a-brave-new-world/
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    geoffw said:

    I see today's Nobel laureate in literature has a thing against full stops. Though only occasionally. Perhaps it's periodic

    Full stops are a very new invention. Texts managed to do without them until about 1500.
    Wait. People use more punctuation in their text messages in the evening. Why?
    Hang on. You think after 3pm is the evening? We need to explore this further. I’d say 5pm at least. Maybe even 6.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    My (catholic) mother in law has always been convinced the Freemasons are at the centre of bad stuff.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,210
    rcs1000 said:

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

    "Do you have intimate relations with pigs ?"
  • It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Lol sounds like a Lib Dem trick to me.
    "Well Starmer says he isn't a mason but..."
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    I saw a clip of Lawrence Fox wittering on about what the “WEF” wants to do to us all the other day, and it took me a while to work out what he meant. Has it really become the latest bogie man for people?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898

    FPT: Andy_JS said: "The one position I don't understand is people who are fanatically anti-tobacco smoking and fanatically pro-all other types of drugs. (which seems to accurately describe the views of a lot of people in North America)."

    I can think of two differences between tobacco and most of those other drugs. First, tobacco was sold for most of the last hundred years by very large corporations -- which, here in the US, are usually distrusted by the left.

    (Tobacco is also sold here by some Indian tribes, and can be sold, as I understand it, by individuals raising their own. I think there are already a few people doing that, especially in high tax states. I don't know what the laws say about that.)

    Second, unlike most illegal drugs, nicotine can help you think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine
    (As I think I mentioned here before, some years ago my math professor girlfriend told me that some of her students smoked only during exam week. They may have been behaving rationally.)

    It would be mean to suggest that some see that as a reason tobacco should be banned.

    (A bit of history; As those familiar with WW II details may know, in that war American soldiers received a ration of 6 packs of cigarettes a week, in spite of being forbidden to smoke when that might make them a target. The first batches included too many unpopular brands, and there were protests about the choices.)

    For the record: I tried cigarettes once, when they were being given away free at college. Didn't like them, and never tried them again.

    I'm neither fanatically anti smoking nor fanatically pro other drugs but I'm generally against outright prohibition as I think it causes more problems than it solves. As a personal choice I don't smoke and I think there are illegal drugs that more fun and less harmful than smoking tobacco.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,403

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    If it doesn't involve a wizened man in a Dalek wheelchair I shall be vexed.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    TimS said:

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    My (catholic) mother in law has always been convinced the Freemasons are at the centre of bad stuff.
    Picking the most sinister organisation from the Catholic Church and the Freemasons is a bit like deciding between SPECTRE and THRUSH.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    Which reminds me. Have we had our regular Saturday Putinbot in recent weeks? I can't remember seeing any.

    Has PB.com slipped off the list of important influencer sites?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

    "Do you have intimate relations with pigs ?"
    Who doesn't?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    Word of advice: go to the WEF, and instead of sitting in a boring presentation by Tony Blair, instead go skiing. The slopes are absolutely deserted, and you'll be in one of Europe's best ski areas (with heated chairlifts!).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    edited October 2023
    viewcode said:

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    If it doesn't involve a wizened man in a Dalek wheelchair I shall be vexed.
    What about the Lizards?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    By the way, anyone can go to the World Economic Forum. Tickets are expensive, but this isn't like Bohemian Grove or the Bilderberg Group, which are closed invite only events.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited October 2023
    I have no idea how we got to the point where the flagship policy of the government is cancelling a high speed railway line it has just spent the last 13 years planning, and a significant part of the replacement transport strategy includes a fund to fix potholes. It is as if they are in government to keep throwing vast amounts of money on expensive civil servants and consultants that they then stop from ever getting anything done.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    viewcode said:

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    If it doesn't involve a wizened man in a Dalek wheelchair I shall be vexed.
    What about the Lizards?
    They'll be vexed too.
  • rcs1000 said:

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    Word of advice: go to the WEF, and instead of sitting in a boring presentation by Tony Blair, instead go skiing. The slopes are absolutely deserted, and you'll be in one of Europe's best ski areas (with heated chairlifts!).
    My skiing ability is matched by my ability to be modest.
  • biggles said:

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    I saw a clip of Lawrence Fox wittering on about what the “WEF” wants to do to us all the other day, and it took me a while to work out what he meant. Has it really become the latest bogie man for people?
    Yup, it's like the conspiracies about the Rothschilds on acid.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,210
    darkage said:

    I have no idea how we got to the point where the flagship policy of the government is cancelling a high speed railway line it has just spent the last 13 years planning, and a significant part of the replacement transport strategy includes a fund to fix potholes. It is as if they are in government to keep throwing vast amounts of money on expensive civil servants and consultants that they then stop from ever getting anything done.

    We are living in a simulation of a Pratchett novel, and we get to be the punchline.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,210
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

    "Do you have intimate relations with pigs ?"
    Who doesn't?
    Fair point.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    I know several on here have rubbished the idea as completely inconceivable but Michelle Obama is shortening for both the nomination and the Presidency.

    Nomination: Now 12.5, 3rd favourite

    Presidency: Now 18, 4th favourite (the widely tipped Haley is 29)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,134
    kinabalu said:

    Am I missing something here? Why would anybody think Keir Starmer might be a Mason?

    More to the point would it tilt their vote for or against?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,641
    edited October 2023
    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    darkage said:

    I have no idea how we got to the point where the flagship policy of the government is cancelling a high speed railway line it has just spent the last 13 years planning, and a significant part of the replacement transport strategy includes a fund to fix potholes. It is as if they are in government to keep throwing vast amounts of money on expensive civil servants and consultants that they then stop from ever getting anything done.

    They have got lots done. Those consultants have bought themselves big houses, sent their children to the best schools, and rarely turned right when entering an aircraft. The civil servants have served their time, and now get to become the next lot of consultants.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    Not a surprise . The Tories are busy sabotaging any chance of reinstating it .
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited October 2023

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    It really is quite comical.

    Everyone appears agreed that Sunak's Government is hopeless / a disaster and must be got rid of ASAP.

    Yet Starmer is going to come in and follow all the same policies.

    The reality seems to be that there aren't any credible options for doing anything much very differently - and both Sunak and Starmer realise this.

    The result is going to be an angry public who have no sense of the practicalities of the situation the country is actually in. They want a magic wand to be waved / money to be plucked out of thin air and it isn't going to happen.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    How depressing.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,134
    nico679 said:

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    Not a surprise . The Tories are busy sabotaging any chance of reinstating it .
    The Tory policy is clearly now scorched earth, to leave nothing of value to the incoming regime.
  • MikeL said:

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    It really is quite comical.

    Everyone appears agreed that Sunak's Government is hopeless / a disaster and must be got rid of ASAP.

    Yet Starmer is going to come in and follow all the same policies.

    The reality seems to be that there aren't any credible options for doing anything much very differently - and both Sunak and Starmer realise this.

    The result is going to be an angry public who have no sense of the practicalities of the situation the country is actually in. They want a majic wand to be waved / money to be plucked out of thin air and it isn't going to happen.
    It's a bit more nuanced than the spin the Telegraph and Big G are putting on it.

    During interviews with local TV programmes, he said the Government’s decision to cancel HS2 contracts and release land intended for the project meant he could not promise to build the second leg of the project.

    “Now can I stand here and commit to reversing the decision on HS2? No, I can’t. Not least because the Government’s already releasing land between Birmingham and Manchester,” he said.

    Asked if he could commit to high speed rail in full, he said: “No, I can’t make that commitment. That’s what we wanted. That’s what was promised under this Government. But they’ve just blown a massive hole through it and are about to start canceling the contracts, releasing the land, reconfiguring Euston. So I can’t stand here and commit to reversing that decision.
  • Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

    Come on, engage your brain. It's easy to imagine this story being put about to try to get people thinking that there's something off or secretive about another politician. Try to get a sense of him having split loyalties or being a bit weird or culty.

    I've no idea who's put this story about but it you came to me with definitive proof it was a Lib Dem or a Conservative activist doing it, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised.

    EDIT: hell, it could even be a disaffected Labour activist
    It does sound to me to be more likely to be a personal quirk of the voter themselves, possibly linked to the online nonsense about Starmer and Savile.

    I say that not because I'd put it past a canvasser to spread a false rumour on the doorstep - these people are volunteers and some are dishonest, stupid, or both - but because I'd be surprised if it was THIS rumour.

    It's all just a bit esoteric and I am unsure how it would come up in a doorstep conversation these days. It also invites the answer "so what?" I know some people have a big issue with Freemasonry, but it's slipped way down the list of popular targets for suspicion and concern. For most people I suspect it's basically viewed as just a mildly fruity version of the Rotary Club - a rather outdated institution that Uncle Bob attends once a month to get him out from under Auntie Sheila's feet and enjoy some poorly cooked gammon and a couple of glasses of sherry with like-minded duffers.

    So maybe it came from a canvasser, but I suspect probably not.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,848
    TimS said:

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    My (catholic) mother in law has always been convinced the Freemasons are at the centre of bad stuff.
    I don’t dismiss the idea. Or the idea that many do good. Truth is many sided.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    No, that's not what he said; he has said he cannot commit to reinstating the project.

    Why do you insist on warping the truth like a tabloid editor?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,755

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    That isn't actually what he's saying. He's saying he's not committing to it, as yet. Which is rather different. The Telegraph is spinning it rather differently because they have been campaigning against HS2 for years due to their links with Joe Rukin.

    However, the report does raise another point. If Sunak sells the land between Handsacre and Crewe without a vote in Parliament he would be breaking the law. Is he doing that?

    Not that he cares about the law. He's a friend of Cummings and already under police investigation for something else he said.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,375
    edited October 2023
    Just had a Lib Dem knock on the door on behalf of our (newly elected in May) Councillor asking if we had any concerns we wanted to raise.

    Quite impressed, considering that there is no election on, and it is absolutely torrential rain right now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,134

    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

    Come on, engage your brain. It's easy to imagine this story being put about to try to get people thinking that there's something off or secretive about another politician. Try to get a sense of him having split loyalties or being a bit weird or culty.

    I've no idea who's put this story about but it you came to me with definitive proof it was a Lib Dem or a Conservative activist doing it, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised.

    EDIT: hell, it could even be a disaffected Labour activist
    It does sound to me to be more likely to be a personal quirk of the voter themselves, possibly linked to the online nonsense about Starmer and Savile.

    I say that not because I'd put it past a canvasser to spread a false rumour on the doorstep - these people are volunteers and some are dishonest, stupid, or both - but because I'd be surprised if it was THIS rumour.

    It's all just a bit esoteric and I am unsure how it would come up in a doorstep conversation these days. It also invites the answer "so what?" I know some people have a big issue with Freemasonry, but it's slipped way down the list of popular targets for suspicion and concern. For most people I suspect it's basically viewed as just a mildly fruity version of the Rotary Club - a rather outdated institution that Uncle Bob attends once a month to get him out from under Auntie Sheila's feet and enjoy some poorly cooked gammon and a couple of glasses of sherry with like-minded duffers.

    So maybe it came from a canvasser, but I suspect probably not.
    Last time I was in Leicester's Masonic Lodge was to go see Priti Patel speak in favour of Brexit in June 2016.

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,856
    The shape of the EU deal on migrant quotas is becoming clearer. You can opt out, but it'll cost you:

    "Ireland may pay to not accept migrants from other parts of the EU, says Taoiseach Leo Varadkar"

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-may-pay-to-not-accept-migrants-from-other-parts-of-the-eu-says-taoiseach-leo-varadkar/a369429305.html
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    How depressing.

    Starmer hasn't actually said what BigG reports.

    What's depressing is that Starmer has little choice, given Sunak plans to see the land off before the next GE.

    I hope someone's keeping a very close eye on who that land gets sold to.
  • novanova Posts: 695
    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    How depressing.

    All he's doing is avoiding falling into an obvious trap.

    If he commits to it, then the Tories have him on the hook for either £40+ billion in tax rises, or the cancellation of all the other plans they've announced as replacements.

    The Tories have made such a mess of the announcements that surely the best option is to say it will be almost impossible to restart it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,848

    biggles said:

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    I saw a clip of Lawrence Fox wittering on about what the “WEF” wants to do to us all the other day, and it took me a while to work out what he meant. Has it really become the latest bogie man for people?
    Yup, it's like the conspiracies about the Rothschilds on acid.
    No it isn't, at all. The World Economic Forum is a think tank and public pressure group that openly espouses many extremely Orwellian ideas. Being against them is like being against the IEA. Sadly, because the WEF is associated with many powerful politicians, civil servants, and business people, its opponents tend to be parodied as conspiracy theorists.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,856
    nova said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    How depressing.

    All he's doing is avoiding falling into an obvious trap.

    If he commits to it, then the Tories have him on the hook for either £40+ billion in tax rises, or the cancellation of all the other plans they've announced as replacements.

    The Tories have made such a mess of the announcements that surely the best option is to say it will be almost impossible to restart it.
    He could commit to publically funding Euston.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,848
    carnforth said:

    The shape of the EU deal on migrant quotas is becoming clearer. You can opt out, but it'll cost you:

    "Ireland may pay to not accept migrants from other parts of the EU, says Taoiseach Leo Varadkar"

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-may-pay-to-not-accept-migrants-from-other-parts-of-the-eu-says-taoiseach-leo-varadkar/a369429305.html

    #BrexitBenefit
  • eekeek Posts: 28,591

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    How depressing.

    Starmer hasn't actually said what BigG reports.

    What's depressing is that Starmer has little choice, given Sunak plans to see the land off before the next GE.

    I hope someone's keeping a very close eye on who that land gets sold to.
    The other issue is that this is not the week when Labour makes policy announcements - that's next week.

    And when your opposition is making a fool of itself daily why would you distract people from the continual story of the Tory party not being competent.
  • Perhaps the resident just wanted to check if Starmer was on his team? Without wishing to stereotype Mid Beds, I rather suspect the local Lodge has a healthy membership.

    On the other hand, I thought the conventional way of doing that was to shake the guy's hand rather than come straight out with the question.
  • Anyhoo, lest we forget Sunak's speech was so bad, even before the HS2 lies, that the police are investigating Sunak.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898

    biggles said:

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    I saw a clip of Lawrence Fox wittering on about what the “WEF” wants to do to us all the other day, and it took me a while to work out what he meant. Has it really become the latest bogie man for people?
    Yup, it's like the conspiracies about the Rothschilds on acid.
    No it isn't, at all. The World Economic Forum is a think tank and public pressure group that openly espouses many extremely Orwellian ideas. Being against them is like being against the IEA. Sadly, because the WEF is associated with many powerful politicians, civil servants, and business people, its opponents tend to be parodied as conspiracy theorists.
    If they publish it on their website it's probably not a conspiracy.
  • Just had a Lib Dem knock on the door on behalf of our (newly elected in May) Councillor asking if we had any concerns we wanted to raise.

    Quite impressed, considering that there is no election on, and it is absolutely torrential rain right now.

    Sly bugger probably just wanted an excuse to shelter from the rain in your porch. I hope you gave them short shrift.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951

    Perhaps the resident just wanted to check if Starmer was on his team? Without wishing to stereotype Mid Beds, I rather suspect the local Lodge has a healthy membership.

    On the other hand, I thought the conventional way of doing that was to shake the guy's hand rather than come straight out with the question.

    Starmer is clearly a square, but is he on the square?
  • Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

    "Do you have intimate relations with pigs ?"
    Does bacon sandwiches being orgasmic count?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,591
    nova said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    How depressing.

    All he's doing is avoiding falling into an obvious trap.

    If he commits to it, then the Tories have him on the hook for either £40+ billion in tax rises, or the cancellation of all the other plans they've announced as replacements.

    The Tories have made such a mess of the announcements that surely the best option is to say it will be almost impossible to restart it.
    He doesn't need to commit to it - he just needs to say there if HS2 is built any land sold by the project will be subject to compulsory purchase at the price paid.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,210

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    No, that's not what he said; he has said he cannot commit to reinstating the project.

    Why do you insist on warping the truth like a tabloid editor?
    Until quite recently, not making a promise you didn't know whether you would keep was seen as a good thing.

    Until quite recently, salting the ground for your successors was seen as a bad thing.

    That decent right wingers are prepared to chortle along to Sunak's sabotage just shows how far down the rabbit hole the whole conservative movement has been dragged.
    Big_G is clearly part of the target audience for Sunak's mendacity.
    He seemed fairly impressed by the dire speech.

    Nonetheless, triangulating with an economic sabateur is depressing stuff from Starmer.

    At a minimum he should put on notice any purchasers of the HS2 land Sunak attempts to flog off, that they may see their property compulsorily repurchased at cost.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,848

    biggles said:

    It's quite nostalgic hearing about the sinister Freemasons. It's been the World Economic Forum making all the running in the evil stakes lately, the Masons must feel quite put out.

    I've got an invite to the WEF in Davos next year, I'll take you, and you can see what it really is all about.
    I saw a clip of Lawrence Fox wittering on about what the “WEF” wants to do to us all the other day, and it took me a while to work out what he meant. Has it really become the latest bogie man for people?
    Yup, it's like the conspiracies about the Rothschilds on acid.
    No it isn't, at all. The World Economic Forum is a think tank and public pressure group that openly espouses many extremely Orwellian ideas. Being against them is like being against the IEA. Sadly, because the WEF is associated with many powerful politicians, civil servants, and business people, its opponents tend to be parodied as conspiracy theorists.
    If they publish it on their website it's probably not a conspiracy.
    Well quite. What it does do though, is wield influence not commensurate with its status outside of the democratic structures of the UK. Especially when its recommendations impact directly on the economic prospects of UK citizens. Liz Truss's connections with the 'Tufton Street' think tanks was widely deplored amongst left wing commenters, so why are complaints about the influence of Davos on Sunak or Starmer not equally valid?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,210

    MikeL said:

    Good evening

    Starmer confirms he will follow Sunak's plans and not reinstate HS2 but invest in the North

    I assume that ends any prospect of it being built

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/05/keir-starmer-will-not-commit-reverse-rishi-sunak-hs2-cut/

    It really is quite comical.

    Everyone appears agreed that Sunak's Government is hopeless / a disaster and must be got rid of ASAP.

    Yet Starmer is going to come in and follow all the same policies.

    The reality seems to be that there aren't any credible options for doing anything much very differently - and both Sunak and Starmer realise this.

    The result is going to be an angry public who have no sense of the practicalities of the situation the country is actually in. They want a majic wand to be waved / money to be plucked out of thin air and it isn't going to happen.
    It's a bit more nuanced than the spin the Telegraph and Big G are putting on it.

    During interviews with local TV programmes, he said the Government’s decision to cancel HS2 contracts and release land intended for the project meant he could not promise to build the second leg of the project.

    “Now can I stand here and commit to reversing the decision on HS2? No, I can’t. Not least because the Government’s already releasing land between Birmingham and Manchester,” he said.

    Asked if he could commit to high speed rail in full, he said: “No, I can’t make that commitment. That’s what we wanted. That’s what was promised under this Government. But they’ve just blown a massive hole through it and are about to start canceling the contracts, releasing the land, reconfiguring Euston. So I can’t stand here and commit to reversing that decision.
    The land he could do something about.
    As Casino told us yesterday, though, cancellation of contracts would delay any resumption by perhaps half a decade.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,403

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On thread.

    "lovely story going around Mid Beds" = Lib Dem unattributable smears, I suggest.

    Why is a voter asking Starmer a stupid question a "smear"?

    "Do you have intimate relations with pigs ?"
    Does bacon sandwiches being orgasmic count?
    Depends what you're doing with them at the time?
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