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A LAB majority stays at a near 65% betting chance – politicalbetting.com

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  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,739
    Mortimer said:

    I will say that the HS2 episode does show that Sunak isn’t good at media management.

    “I’m not ready to make an announcement and I will tell you when I am” is all that needs to be said. In a slightly stronger tone if he is pushed again.

    He is an adequate touchy-feely politician but under pressure he does not have the steel underneath. He just repeats the smiley, cheery, pound shop Blair woo.

    You do wonder why he keeps doing these interviews, given that he knows they're going to ask him about HS2 and he's not prepared to answer. Does he go off-stage after repeatedly not answering the question, and beam at his aides, "Well, that went well. Should be worth another 5% in the polls, don't you think?"
    As I've said before, I encountered people in Sunak's mould in consulting.

    They start projects, set targets, do all the admin, beam and try to charm. And then they fail to hit their own targets. And are then replaced by those who know how to get things done.

    Sadly, we're still at the 'fail to hit own targets' stage.

    The backbenchers are the equivalent of consulting firm partners here. In a few weeks time, after the by elections, they'll start to get jittery and look for alternatives.

    Because otherwise many of them will be out of a job, instead.
    None of the last eight Tory leaders has won a majority at a general election and survived as prime minister to the next election.
  • Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    In my travels I often hear people talk wistfully of moving to Preston

    “Preston. If only. It’s just so…. Functional”

    “Yes. Have you heard they’ve got another flyover?”

    “Wow. It was already pretty damn perfect”

    I don't know Preston but I do know sneering elitism when I see it.
    What are you talking about?? Even on this Maldivian island people are talking excitedly about the functionality of Preston

    Cheers




    Also, to be more serious. Yes I’m mocking the ludicrous @BartholomewRoberts but you make a serious point - by mistake. Why is it elitist to ask for urban beauty? Why can’t the good people of Warrington and Preston have nice towns that emphasise people over cars and flyovers? Like the Dutch and the French?

    Why do poor or average Britons get stuck with urban ugliness? THAT is the elitism


    Fishergate (Preston City Centre's main drag) is pretty much a poster child for how to make a car-dominated, congested, unappealing, economically failing street into a pleasant pedestrian-dominated street where businesses want to locate. It really is a triumph of playing a not-particularly-strong hand (i.e. its architecture) very well (you don't actually notice the comparative ordinariness of the buildings; you notice the pleasantness of the spaces in between).
    Importantly, it's not simply pedestrianised - which can have a tendency to create urban areas which are unappealing after dark and potentially lacking in busy-ness - buses can still use it, and cars can still cross in some locations. If you are getting there by public transport, you get right to the door.

    Well said. And multiple large car parks near Fishergate too so people can go shopping on the pedestrianised streets but still load their shopping into their car and drive home.

    Everyone wins.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
    Farage has already rebuffed the idea. If anything that's even more humiliating. The Tories talking openly about him rejoining, and Farage saying no, they aren't good enough for him.
    Aw, what a shame. Maybe he's playing hard to get. Peerage and a Cabinet seat at minimum.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,805

    Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
    If Rishi invites Farage into cabinet then he deserves the inevitable defenestration that will follow. I give it three months before Farage finds some wedge issue that gives him the ability to flounce and blame it all on Sunak, and ignite the next phase of the Tory Civil War.

    What I would say (as intimated up thread) is that if Farage is invited into the Tory Party I have absolutely no doubt, if standing and winning a Commons seat, he would be the next LOTO. The Tory Party is slowly morphing into GOPUK and this would just be their Trump moment.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683

    If only we had an anglosphere example of what life would be like if we built our cities for the car.

    Oh, we do...



    How about British cities that facilitate equally walking, cycling and driving all in harmony?

    image

    That's a new junction in Preston near the city centre with free flowing bikes, cars and pedestrians after the A59 flyover was recently built to relieve the car traffic. The green FYI is cycling paths that are physically segregated from cars (as you can see by the yellow lines if its not clear) and pedestrians too.

    Of course our very own @Eabhal highlighted Preston as a city with high active travel, but quickly went quiet as a mouse when he realised why that is.
    That looks awful – is that the sort of vision you have for Britain? Utterly soulless.
    Train tracks are utterly soulless too.

    Souls come from the people, not the ground.

    Seeing it in action, free-flowing bikes, cars and pedestrians getting about their lives without being stuck in traffic or forced off the road by either congestion or fear is far better than any alternative.
    Train tracks are the least soulless form of infrastructure. Usually bordered by greenery and wildlife, affording beautiful views and interesting insights into people's back gardens and fascinating Victorian trackside infrastructure. Plus of course trains, the most romantic thing every created by human hand.
    Yes, but no opportuntiy for the 'motorist' to flick obscene gestures with his backless-gloved hand at maiden aunts on cycles, toddlers lisping their prayers, and little girls daring to tread on the Belisha crossing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    edited October 2023
    Bravermann in full Trump mode going on about elites I see from last few minutes.

    She went to Oxford and is in the fecking Cabinet.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    ·
    25m
    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says there’s a “hurricane” of mass migration coming
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,739

    Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    ·
    25m
    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says there’s a “hurricane” of mass migration coming

    She thinks she's Sarah Connor now?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535

    Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    ·
    7m
    Content to one side - struck by how Suella Braverman has improved as a public speaker.

    The sign of someone who is serious about a future leadership pitch
  • Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
    If Rishi invites Farage into cabinet then he deserves the inevitable defenestration that will follow. I give it three months before Farage finds some wedge issue that gives him the ability to flounce and blame it all on Sunak, and ignite the next phase of the Tory Civil War.

    What I would say (as intimated up thread) is that if Farage is invited into the Tory Party I have absolutely no doubt, if standing and winning a Commons seat, he would be the next LOTO. The Tory Party is slowly morphing into GOPUK and this would just be their Trump moment.
    He may have rebuffed it as a notional idea. But if Richy has asked him to come in, offered him ermine and a plumb cabinet role then lets see if he is big enough to rebuff that.

    What job could he be given? Something currently occupied by a non-entity but is suitably Brexity for him? How about Home Secretary? He has spent a fair bit of time on a dinghy in the channel, make the Nigel responsible for sinking migrants.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,119
    edited October 2023

    Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    ·
    25m
    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says there’s a “hurricane” of mass migration coming

    I read that as "a hurricane of mass resignations coming", which would have been more politically interesting...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    Suella is on fire (or possibly her pants are).

    She has just made a rip roaring speech castigating Labour for their failed immigration and law and order implementation. She has contrasted their failure in home affairs with policies she plans to impose after the next election. Awesome.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    FWIW

    A family member told me months ago that Tories will win next election because of migration.

    Their entire election campaign will be based on that he reckons.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    Braverman speech feels like "Game changing moment" - Sophie Ridge.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306


    Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    ·
    7m
    Content to one side - struck by how Suella Braverman has improved as a public speaker.

    The sign of someone who is serious about a future leadership pitch

    I noticed that too. It was extremely impressive whatever one thinks of the content.

    Contrast that with Priti Patel, a previous holder of the Home Sec role, who also seems to have big leadership ambitions - it's Patel's public speaking that lets her down a bit. She's not bad, but certain parts of sentences are hurried and her speeches lose impact and punch. Braverman was excellent - every single part of the speech hit.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535


    Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    ·
    7m
    Content to one side - struck by how Suella Braverman has improved as a public speaker.

    The sign of someone who is serious about a future leadership pitch

    I noticed that too. It was extremely impressive whatever one thinks of the content.

    Contrast that with Priti Patel, a previous holder of the Home Sec role, who also seems to have big leadership ambitions - it's Patel's public speaking that lets her down a bit. She's not bad, but certain parts of sentences are hurried and her speeches lose impact and punch. Braverman was excellent - every single part of the speech hit.
    She's 10 on BF for next leader.

    Looking like value to me given the direction the tories seem to be rapidly heading in.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994
    I see that Rishi Rich is now channeling his inner Gordon Brown, resorting to the "getting on with the job" response to questions.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,250
    edited October 2023

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    It’s an over-engineered version of a standard Dutch roundabout. They do work really well. But this one (and the same design in Manchester) do look a bit like someone gave a Dutch blueprint to a bunch of HS2 engineers and said “here, build one of these”.

    LOL! 😂

    It probably can be done better, considering its an early adoption in the UK of what the Dutch have been doing for years no doubt it will evolve over time and future ones might be better.

    But functionally? Its a good idea and works well.

    The Dutch have nailed this for years. Build more roads, design well for active travel, everyone wins.

    Its great to see parts of the UK adopting the Dutch approach. Hopefully more do over time. Evolving the aesthetics to look better is a secondary priority over functionality.
    Yes, let’s all prioritise “functionality”. Eventually that way the whole of Britain can become a motorway and no one need ever get stuck in traffic because NO ONE WILL EVER WANT TO LIVE IN UGLY DEPRESSING BRITAIN

    This is, by the way, exactly what happened to thousands of American downtowns. They prioritised the functionality of driving and parking. By destroying millions of lovely old buildings to make way for car lots and wide roads

    Now no one wants to drive to the downtowns because they are hideous dystopias full of homeless people and empty car lots. = zero traffic. Problem solved
    That's funny because towns like Warrington and cities like Preston that are facilitating both driving and active travel, along with getting new builds, are rapidly growing in population not shrinking.

    Oh and home ownership rates are far higher than in miserably depressing London where most people have to work to pay rent with no hope of a home of their own.

    And the roads are free flowing. As are the cycle paths. With plenty of trees also along the routes too, even if not shown at the junctions.

    You have a very different idea of depressing to me. I find 21 people being forced into one two bedroom flat as they have nowhere else to live far more depressing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66941965
    I'm sorry but no one wants to live in Warrington. That's why it's affordable, and why BTL landlords haven't come sniffing.
    Most of the UK lives in towns like Warrington. Only there's hundreds of Warringtons dotted around the country each with a different name.

    Its only a tiny minority that lives in cities (and even in cities most still drive).

    Its an even smaller minority that lives in London, the only city where most have been forced off the road due to chronic overcrowding.
    38% of the UK population lives in a city (defined as a populous urban area with a population over 500k people). Not a majority, but not tiny either. (Source: http://www.demographia.com/db-worldua.pdf )

    We should neither ignore cities (which are, after all, the economic engines of the UK) nor ignore the majority of people who live in towns & the wider countryside.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306
    Apparently the heckler who was removed from the hall was a Tory member of the GLA! :#
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535

    Suella is on fire (or possibly her pants are).

    She has just made a rip roaring speech castigating Labour for their failed immigration and law and order implementation. She has contrasted their failure in home affairs with policies she plans to impose after the next election. Awesome.

    Their failures? They haven't been in office in 13 years.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683

    Suella is on fire (or possibly her pants are).

    She has just made a rip roaring speech castigating Labour for their failed immigration and law and order implementation. She has contrasted their failure in home affairs with policies she plans to impose after the next election. Awesome.

    Their failures? They haven't been in office in 13 years.
    Mr Cameron and the LDs are as good as Labour from the current Tory point of view?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    ...

    Suella is on fire (or possibly her pants are).

    She has just made a rip roaring speech castigating Labour for their failed immigration and law and order implementation. She has contrasted their failure in home affairs with policies she plans to impose after the next election. Awesome.

    Their failures? They haven't been in office in 13 years.
    It's post truth.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306
    Farooq said:

    Apparently the heckler who was removed from the hall was a Tory member of the GLA! :#

    What heckler? What was said?
    Just some shouting, don't know what was said. He was bundled out, and someone from GBNews followed him and recorded a short interview. I think it was Andrew Boff - that's a name I think I remember from Conhome in days gone by?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,831
    edited October 2023
    Farage is a vote winner. But I can only see him coming back (into politics) as (Conservative) party leader.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 880
    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,422
    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    The first 5 years was Cameron and Clegg. Slightly different.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,988
    edited October 2023
    Since you were discussing cheese, this reminder from Charles de Gaulle:

    "How can anyone govern a nation that has two hundred and forty-six different kinds of cheese?"
    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/charles_de_gaulle_398023

    (France now has about a thousand varieties.)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    Leon said:

    Worst country in Europe for beer....

    My vote would be Portugal...I have been to Lisbon, Porto, Silver Coast, down the Atlantic coast and across the Algarve, and its seems all you can get is Super Bock, Sagres, Cristal, and they are all bloody awful.

    Its like if you went into a pub here and all you could buy was Carling.

    Italy and Greece are pretty bad. But then they don’t really have beer cultures. They drink wine
    They don't really drink anything in Italy, in my experience.
    Yet at 6pm they're all sitting in cafes drinking Aperol Spritz
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    Pretty sure we know what most of the papers will have on front page at 10pm tonight.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    The first 5 years was Cameron and Clegg. Slightly different.
    It's Labour's "no border" implementation that Suella is vexed by. She isn't blaming the coalition.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Hang on - is this a regional thing? Everyone I know in the South mows their lawn....
  • TOPPING said:

    Farage is a vote winner. But I can only see him coming back (into politics) as (Conservative) party leader.

    Can't see Nige ever doing that. As with Boris, being encumbered with boring political responsibility is a sure way to kill the magic stone dead.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    Farooq said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Right wing parties railing against "elites" always carry a whiff of fash.
    Are those the rootless cosmopolitan elites ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    As he prepares for this weekend's RefUK conference, Richard Tice calls Rishi Sunak and Jeremy Hunt "consocialists" who he says are no different to the "socialist Labour Party".

    He also expresses some sympathy for Liz Truss's "tax cutting, high-growth agenda", arguing that the short-lived Tory PM's mistake was not to link it to a plan to "cut wasteful government spending in order to pay for it".
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66939798

    I don't necessarily think that was her mistake. I think her mistakes were, in no particular order:

    1. Timing the mini-budget to coincide with the start of the BOE's quantitive tightening/bond-selling programme. The minibudget should have been delayed for the effects of that programme on the value of bonds to play out.

    2. The energy support guarantee was too generous (perhaps unavoidable politically), and should have been packaged with longer term supply side reforms in an 'emergency energy bill', with no unrelated economic measures included. Those reforms to have included lifting the fracking ban, new oil and gas licenses, lifting the onshore wind ban, and special powers for Government to accelerate power stations in development through the planning process, along with a consultation on other renewables like tidal, and looking at green levies. This would have stood a far higher chance of success as a set of emergency measures in response to the energy crisis.

    3. If bond yields rise quickly in response to the Bank's sell off, insist that the Bank curtails its quantitive tightening and doesn’t sell bonds till they mature - the Bank held to account for its own actions.

    4. Then bring the mini-budget, with an OBR forecast, but request methodology changes if there's good reason to suppose that the affect of tax cuts on increasing taxable behaviour are not being taken into account.

    Of course, all very easy to say in hindsight.
    The error was launching a spending only budget with no hint as to where the money was coming from. No detail matters beyond that.
    That's what all Governments do.
    The sheer inanity of some of the stuff here!
    That's what makes the site so fascinating!
    Surely you can see inanity everywhere online?
    But the quality of it on here is so much better,
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
    It would be telling educated voters in the blue wall seats that the Tories don't want their support for the foreseeable.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,422
    edited October 2023
    Ukraine has a problem if the average age of their soldiers is over 40.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/average-age-ukraine-soldiers-front-over-40
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,805

    Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
    If Rishi invites Farage into cabinet then he deserves the inevitable defenestration that will follow. I give it three months before Farage finds some wedge issue that gives him the ability to flounce and blame it all on Sunak, and ignite the next phase of the Tory Civil War.

    What I would say (as intimated up thread) is that if Farage is invited into the Tory Party I have absolutely no doubt, if standing and winning a Commons seat, he would be the next LOTO. The Tory Party is slowly morphing into GOPUK and this would just be their Trump moment.
    He may have rebuffed it as a notional idea. But if Richy has asked him to come in, offered him ermine and a plumb cabinet role then lets see if he is big enough to rebuff that.

    What job could he be given? Something currently occupied by a non-entity but is suitably Brexity for him? How about Home Secretary? He has spent a fair bit of time on a dinghy in the channel, make the Nigel responsible for sinking migrants.
    Farage wouldn’t want to be Home Secretary. He is a smart enough cookie to realise the problems in that department can’t be surmounted by rhetoric alone (see Braverman, Suella). He is in a lose-lose situation in such a role. He would inevitably fail at it, and he would lose his alt-right sheen.

    He would either want to be given a sinecure he could flounce from, or most likely if he ever was to join would simply be a blessing from the leadership to find him a safe seat for the next GE. In Parliament, he can be elected leader. That is the only role in the Tory Party he’d really want.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833
    edited October 2023
    Whenever the camera pans round to the audience at a Tory Conference, you thank chr*st you don't vote for them.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,517

    Farooq said:

    Apparently the heckler who was removed from the hall was a Tory member of the GLA! :#

    What heckler? What was said?
    Just some shouting, don't know what was said. He was bundled out, and someone from GBNews followed him and recorded a short interview. I think it was Andrew Boff - that's a name I think I remember from Conhome in days gone by?
    Yes, quite prominent in his day. I was in the hall (no restrictions) and didn't see the incident.

    She gave a full-bore populist speech ("Human Right Act? I'm surprised they didn't call it the Criminal Rights Act!"), well-delivered with lots of applause. At the end about 2/3 of the audience gave her a standing ovation, though most of the rest weren't applauding at all. Certainly cemented her claim to a good chance to succeed Sunak.

    Chalk, before that, gave quite a decent speech on justice and rehabilitation - some routine Labour-bashing, but I thought he defended his brief well. Very little applause though - the crowd wanted more Trumpian oratory.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    Some gall from the Univ of Pennsylvania, who deemed her (Nobel winning) research 'not of faculty quality'.

    Katalin Karikó and Drew Weissman, Penn’s historic mRNA vaccine research team, win 2023
    https://twitter.com/Penn/status/1708786785877156020
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 880
    Andy_JS said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    The first 5 years was Cameron and Clegg. Slightly different.
    Fair, but it's still a stretch to blame all the ills of the Country on the opposition, who have not held power for 13 years under a Constitutional system that gives said opposition essentially no power.

    That said, running against the record of the post-2010 Labour Government might be the Conservative's best hope of winning the election. Though god knows why they'd want to do a thing like that.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,891
    edited October 2023
    Phil said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    It’s an over-engineered version of a standard Dutch roundabout. They do work really well. But this one (and the same design in Manchester) do look a bit like someone gave a Dutch blueprint to a bunch of HS2 engineers and said “here, build one of these”.

    LOL! 😂

    It probably can be done better, considering its an early adoption in the UK of what the Dutch have been doing for years no doubt it will evolve over time and future ones might be better.

    But functionally? Its a good idea and works well.

    The Dutch have nailed this for years. Build more roads, design well for active travel, everyone wins.

    Its great to see parts of the UK adopting the Dutch approach. Hopefully more do over time. Evolving the aesthetics to look better is a secondary priority over functionality.
    Yes, let’s all prioritise “functionality”. Eventually that way the whole of Britain can become a motorway and no one need ever get stuck in traffic because NO ONE WILL EVER WANT TO LIVE IN UGLY DEPRESSING BRITAIN

    This is, by the way, exactly what happened to thousands of American downtowns. They prioritised the functionality of driving and parking. By destroying millions of lovely old buildings to make way for car lots and wide roads

    Now no one wants to drive to the downtowns because they are hideous dystopias full of homeless people and empty car lots. = zero traffic. Problem solved
    That's funny because towns like Warrington and cities like Preston that are facilitating both driving and active travel, along with getting new builds, are rapidly growing in population not shrinking.

    Oh and home ownership rates are far higher than in miserably depressing London where most people have to work to pay rent with no hope of a home of their own.

    And the roads are free flowing. As are the cycle paths. With plenty of trees also along the routes too, even if not shown at the junctions.

    You have a very different idea of depressing to me. I find 21 people being forced into one two bedroom flat as they have nowhere else to live far more depressing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66941965
    I'm sorry but no one wants to live in Warrington. That's why it's affordable, and why BTL landlords haven't come sniffing.
    Most of the UK lives in towns like Warrington. Only there's hundreds of Warringtons dotted around the country each with a different name.

    Its only a tiny minority that lives in cities (and even in cities most still drive).

    Its an even smaller minority that lives in London, the only city where most have been forced off the road due to chronic overcrowding.
    38% of the UK population lives in a city (defined as a populous urban area with a population over 500k people). Not a majority, but not tiny either. (Source: http://www.demographia.com/db-worldua.pdf )

    We should neither ignore cities (which are, after all, the economic engines of the UK) nor ignore the majority of people who live in towns & the wider countryside.
    That data is only that high by merging neighbouring towns into built up urban areas. Here is the real data:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/understandingtownsinenglandandwalespopulationanddemographicanalysis/2021-02-24

    Cities excluding London make up 6.9 million people in England and Wales.

    The majority of England and Wales live in towns.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,805
    edited October 2023
    TOPPING said:

    Farage is a vote winner. But I can only see him coming back (into politics) as (Conservative) party leader.

    He is both a vote winner and a vote repulser. The UKs version of a Le Pen. Plenty of people could vote for him, but plenty could be very easily persuaded to vote against him too, if they need to be persuaded at all.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,878
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Worst country in Europe for beer....

    My vote would be Portugal...I have been to Lisbon, Porto, Silver Coast, down the Atlantic coast and across the Algarve, and its seems all you can get is Super Bock, Sagres, Cristal, and they are all bloody awful.

    Its like if you went into a pub here and all you could buy was Carling.

    Italy and Greece are pretty bad. But then they don’t really have beer cultures. They drink wine
    They don't really drink anything in Italy, in my experience.
    Yet at 6pm they're all sitting in cafes drinking Aperol Spritz
    And they make 1 last 3 hours. Very impressive skill.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    Farooq said:

    Apparently the heckler who was removed from the hall was a Tory member of the GLA! :#

    What heckler? What was said?
    Just some shouting, don't know what was said. He was bundled out, and someone from GBNews followed him and recorded a short interview. I think it was Andrew Boff - that's a name I think I remember from Conhome in days gone by?
    He's a bright, if somewhat eccentric guy, but has always managed to stay onside with his party. I wonder what his beef was?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306

    Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
    If Rishi invites Farage into cabinet then he deserves the inevitable defenestration that will follow. I give it three months before Farage finds some wedge issue that gives him the ability to flounce and blame it all on Sunak, and ignite the next phase of the Tory Civil War.

    What I would say (as intimated up thread) is that if Farage is invited into the Tory Party I have absolutely no doubt, if standing and winning a Commons seat, he would be the next LOTO. The Tory Party is slowly morphing into GOPUK and this would just be their Trump moment.
    He may have rebuffed it as a notional idea. But if Richy has asked him to come in, offered him ermine and a plumb cabinet role then lets see if he is big enough to rebuff that.

    What job could he be given? Something currently occupied by a non-entity but is suitably Brexity for him? How about Home Secretary? He has spent a fair bit of time on a dinghy in the channel, make the Nigel responsible for sinking migrants.
    Farage wouldn’t want to be Home Secretary. He is a smart enough cookie to realise the problems in that department can’t be surmounted by rhetoric alone (see Braverman, Suella). He is in a lose-lose situation in such a role. He would inevitably fail at it, and he would lose his alt-right sheen.

    He would either want to be given a sinecure he could flounce from, or most likely if he ever was to join would simply be a blessing from the leadership to find him a safe seat for the next GE. In Parliament, he can be elected leader. That is the only role in the Tory Party he’d really want.
    I don't know why we're discussing this 'issue' - Farage is at the conference with GBNews. Rebel right wing Tories are welcoming him, and Rishi has been nice to him so he doesn't get a cob on and go back to Reform, which would certainly cost the Tories very dearly electorally. That's all. He's not joining the party let alone the Cabinet.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    Farooq said:

    Since you were discussing cheese, this reminder from Charles DeGaulle:

    "How can anyone govern a nation that has two hundred and forty-six different kinds of cheese?"
    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/charles_de_gaulle_398023

    (France now has about a thousand varieties.)

    How can anyone govern a nation that has two hundred and forty-six different kinds of cheese?
    Easy as long as you do it... Caerphilly
    Why would that anyway be a problem for anyone who believes in the free market ?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Ukraine has a problem if the average age of their soldiers is over 40.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/average-age-ukraine-soldiers-front-over-40

    Why?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    Braverman speech feels like "Game changing moment" - Sophie Ridge.

    It's news that Liz Truss has been giving her colleagues public speaking lessons. Especially on tactical mid-phrase pauses.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,878

    TOPPING said:

    Farage is a vote winner. But I can only see him coming back (into politics) as (Conservative) party leader.

    He is both a vote winner and a vote repulser. The UKs version of a Le Pen. Plenty of people could vote for him, but plenty could be persuaded to vote against him too.
    He's more Jean Marie than Marine too. In fact he's more like Trump than either of those two. He is truly Britain Trump.

    He's also, unlike even the more fashy of the Tory right wing, avowedly pro-Putin. I'm not sure that will go down well even with the RefUK-minded Tories.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,250
    edited October 2023

    Phil said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    It’s an over-engineered version of a standard Dutch roundabout. They do work really well. But this one (and the same design in Manchester) do look a bit like someone gave a Dutch blueprint to a bunch of HS2 engineers and said “here, build one of these”.

    LOL! 😂

    It probably can be done better, considering its an early adoption in the UK of what the Dutch have been doing for years no doubt it will evolve over time and future ones might be better.

    But functionally? Its a good idea and works well.

    The Dutch have nailed this for years. Build more roads, design well for active travel, everyone wins.

    Its great to see parts of the UK adopting the Dutch approach. Hopefully more do over time. Evolving the aesthetics to look better is a secondary priority over functionality.
    Yes, let’s all prioritise “functionality”. Eventually that way the whole of Britain can become a motorway and no one need ever get stuck in traffic because NO ONE WILL EVER WANT TO LIVE IN UGLY DEPRESSING BRITAIN

    This is, by the way, exactly what happened to thousands of American downtowns. They prioritised the functionality of driving and parking. By destroying millions of lovely old buildings to make way for car lots and wide roads

    Now no one wants to drive to the downtowns because they are hideous dystopias full of homeless people and empty car lots. = zero traffic. Problem solved
    That's funny because towns like Warrington and cities like Preston that are facilitating both driving and active travel, along with getting new builds, are rapidly growing in population not shrinking.

    Oh and home ownership rates are far higher than in miserably depressing London where most people have to work to pay rent with no hope of a home of their own.

    And the roads are free flowing. As are the cycle paths. With plenty of trees also along the routes too, even if not shown at the junctions.

    You have a very different idea of depressing to me. I find 21 people being forced into one two bedroom flat as they have nowhere else to live far more depressing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66941965
    I'm sorry but no one wants to live in Warrington. That's why it's affordable, and why BTL landlords haven't come sniffing.
    Most of the UK lives in towns like Warrington. Only there's hundreds of Warringtons dotted around the country each with a different name.

    Its only a tiny minority that lives in cities (and even in cities most still drive).

    Its an even smaller minority that lives in London, the only city where most have been forced off the road due to chronic overcrowding.
    38% of the UK population lives in a city (defined as a populous urban area with a population over 500k people). Not a majority, but not tiny either. (Source: http://www.demographia.com/db-worldua.pdf )

    We should neither ignore cities (which are, after all, the economic engines of the UK) nor ignore the majority of people who live in towns & the wider countryside.
    That data is only that high by merging neighbouring towns into built up urban areas. Here is the real data:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/understandingtownsinenglandandwalespopulationanddemographicanalysis/2021-02-24

    Cities excluding London make up 6.9 million people in England and Wales.

    The majority of England and Wales live in towns.
    You can’t exclude the population of London from “people who live in cities in England & Wales”. Come on.

    If you live in a “town” that’s been completely swallowed up by the conurbation of Birmingham then for planning & comparison purposes you’re a part of Birmingham, not the rural town you might have been part of back in 1935.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306
    ...
    IanB2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Apparently the heckler who was removed from the hall was a Tory member of the GLA! :#

    What heckler? What was said?
    Just some shouting, don't know what was said. He was bundled out, and someone from GBNews followed him and recorded a short interview. I think it was Andrew Boff - that's a name I think I remember from Conhome in days gone by?
    He's a bright, if somewhat eccentric guy, but has always managed to stay onside with his party. I wonder what his beef was?
    It was perceived transphobia. It is actually a bit odd as I don't have a distinct recollection of a gamey part of the speech about trans - it was obliquely referred to in the part about banning sex offenders from 'changing their identity' - but I could be misremembering. It'll be all over the news.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,727
    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Worst country in Europe for beer....

    My vote would be Portugal...I have been to Lisbon, Porto, Silver Coast, down the Atlantic coast and across the Algarve, and its seems all you can get is Super Bock, Sagres, Cristal, and they are all bloody awful.

    Its like if you went into a pub here and all you could buy was Carling.

    Italy and Greece are pretty bad. But then they don’t really have beer cultures. They drink wine
    They don't really drink anything in Italy, in my experience.
    Yet at 6pm they're all sitting in cafes drinking Aperol Spritz
    And they make 1 last 3 hours. Very impressive skill.
    What are they thinking? Personally when I go out for a drink I'm seeking a quenching session brew or a refreshing substantial quaff. Sips... not for me.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,422
    I blame social media and smartphones for this.

    "It’s official – Britain has lost its sense of humour
    We all now leap at the chance to smack people down for saying anything off colour, but surely intent has to count for something?
    Celia Walden"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2023/10/03/robbie-williams-twitter-joke-sense-of-humour/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,422
    edited October 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    Ukraine has a problem if the average age of their soldiers is over 40.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/average-age-ukraine-soldiers-front-over-40

    Why?
    Isn't it usual for armies to rely on young men aged about 18 to 35? I suppose it depends what the average age of Russian soldiers is by comparison.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 880
    Mortimer said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Hang on - is this a regional thing? Everyone I know in the South mows their lawn....
    Oooh, maybe, I've only ever heard of people cutting the grass. I've heard of Lawn parties, but never really heard of anyone referring to their lawn.

    If it is regional thing, I apologise for my slander towards Lawn-using southerners.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited October 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
    If Rishi invites Farage into cabinet then he deserves the inevitable defenestration that will follow. I give it three months before Farage finds some wedge issue that gives him the ability to flounce and blame it all on Sunak, and ignite the next phase of the Tory Civil War.

    What I would say (as intimated up thread) is that if Farage is invited into the Tory Party I have absolutely no doubt, if standing and winning a Commons seat, he would be the next LOTO. The Tory Party is slowly morphing into GOPUK and this would just be their Trump moment.
    He may have rebuffed it as a notional idea. But if Richy has asked him to come in, offered him ermine and a plumb cabinet role then lets see if he is big enough to rebuff that.

    What job could he be given? Something currently occupied by a non-entity but is suitably Brexity for him? How about Home Secretary? He has spent a fair bit of time on a dinghy in the channel, make the Nigel responsible for sinking migrants.
    If the "Conservatives" invite Farage in then that just proves how they need to have a UKIP night at the elections (and come out with zero MPs). IMO Farage makes pond-scum look good.

    On second thoughts, Farage should fit right in to this current Tory Party... :D
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,441
    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280
    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Really? 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct
    I've been mowing my lawn all my life and I'm from Wiltshire.

    I don't disagree with your general point - there is a danger of the right of the Tory party believing that the way back is more extreme, when in reality, as Cameron showed, back to the centre is how you reconnect to reality the electorate.
  • Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    It’s an over-engineered version of a standard Dutch roundabout. They do work really well. But this one (and the same design in Manchester) do look a bit like someone gave a Dutch blueprint to a bunch of HS2 engineers and said “here, build one of these”.

    LOL! 😂

    It probably can be done better, considering its an early adoption in the UK of what the Dutch have been doing for years no doubt it will evolve over time and future ones might be better.

    But functionally? Its a good idea and works well.

    The Dutch have nailed this for years. Build more roads, design well for active travel, everyone wins.

    Its great to see parts of the UK adopting the Dutch approach. Hopefully more do over time. Evolving the aesthetics to look better is a secondary priority over functionality.
    Yes, let’s all prioritise “functionality”. Eventually that way the whole of Britain can become a motorway and no one need ever get stuck in traffic because NO ONE WILL EVER WANT TO LIVE IN UGLY DEPRESSING BRITAIN

    This is, by the way, exactly what happened to thousands of American downtowns. They prioritised the functionality of driving and parking. By destroying millions of lovely old buildings to make way for car lots and wide roads

    Now no one wants to drive to the downtowns because they are hideous dystopias full of homeless people and empty car lots. = zero traffic. Problem solved
    That's funny because towns like Warrington and cities like Preston that are facilitating both driving and active travel, along with getting new builds, are rapidly growing in population not shrinking.

    Oh and home ownership rates are far higher than in miserably depressing London where most people have to work to pay rent with no hope of a home of their own.

    And the roads are free flowing. As are the cycle paths. With plenty of trees also along the routes too, even if not shown at the junctions.

    You have a very different idea of depressing to me. I find 21 people being forced into one two bedroom flat as they have nowhere else to live far more depressing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66941965
    I'm sorry but no one wants to live in Warrington. That's why it's affordable, and why BTL landlords haven't come sniffing.
    Most of the UK lives in towns like Warrington. Only there's hundreds of Warringtons dotted around the country each with a different name.

    Its only a tiny minority that lives in cities (and even in cities most still drive).

    Its an even smaller minority that lives in London, the only city where most have been forced off the road due to chronic overcrowding.
    38% of the UK population lives in a city (defined as a populous urban area with a population over 500k people). Not a majority, but not tiny either. (Source: http://www.demographia.com/db-worldua.pdf )

    We should neither ignore cities (which are, after all, the economic engines of the UK) nor ignore the majority of people who live in towns & the wider countryside.
    That data is only that high by merging neighbouring towns into built up urban areas. Here is the real data:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/understandingtownsinenglandandwalespopulationanddemographicanalysis/2021-02-24

    Cities excluding London make up 6.9 million people in England and Wales.

    The majority of England and Wales live in towns.
    You can’t exclude the population of London from “people who live in cities in England & Wales”. Come on.
    Fair but even including London you only get to 17m people (correction exc London is 8m, I copied off wrong column).

    Whereas 32.9 million live in towns.

    Towns dramatically exceed cities in England, nearly 2:1, not that you'd know it from our city based correspondents and media.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Poor old Andrew Boff escorted from the hall. Good on him for standing up against the hurricane of hate.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306
    boulay said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
    Agree. I think it's a question of scale and/or level of manicure. If you have a large, or very well tended bit of grass, you're mowing the lawn. If you have a backyard patch of grass, or an orchard or paddock, you cut the grass.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280
    Mortimer said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Hang on - is this a regional thing? Everyone I know in the South mows their lawn....
    Quite - I do and I am not from the USA.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    The heckler was hardly loud or disruptive. Very odd - being he’s an actual Tory - thought it was ridiculously heavy handed.

    Party looks to be heading to a split as it morphs into UKIP. People will generally be repelled from voting for it. Such niche issues as well - I mean, our public services are crumbling and they’re talking about woke ideology in science
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,805
    edited October 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
    If Rishi invites Farage into cabinet then he deserves the inevitable defenestration that will follow. I give it three months before Farage finds some wedge issue that gives him the ability to flounce and blame it all on Sunak, and ignite the next phase of the Tory Civil War.

    What I would say (as intimated up thread) is that if Farage is invited into the Tory Party I have absolutely no doubt, if standing and winning a Commons seat, he would be the next LOTO. The Tory Party is slowly morphing into GOPUK and this would just be their Trump moment.
    He may have rebuffed it as a notional idea. But if Richy has asked him to come in, offered him ermine and a plumb cabinet role then lets see if he is big enough to rebuff that.

    What job could he be given? Something currently occupied by a non-entity but is suitably Brexity for him? How about Home Secretary? He has spent a fair bit of time on a dinghy in the channel, make the Nigel responsible for sinking migrants.
    Farage wouldn’t want to be Home Secretary. He is a smart enough cookie to realise the problems in that department can’t be surmounted by rhetoric alone (see Braverman, Suella). He is in a lose-lose situation in such a role. He would inevitably fail at it, and he would lose his alt-right sheen.

    He would either want to be given a sinecure he could flounce from, or most likely if he ever was to join would simply be a blessing from the leadership to find him a safe seat for the next GE. In Parliament, he can be elected leader. That is the only role in the Tory Party he’d really want.
    I don't know why we're discussing this 'issue' - Farage is at the conference with GBNews. Rebel right wing Tories are welcoming him, and Rishi has been nice to him so he doesn't get a cob on and go back to Reform, which would certainly cost the Tories very dearly electorally. That's all. He's not joining the party let alone the Cabinet.
    He isn’t, yet. And I scoffed at this very thought only a few months back.

    But if there is one thing this conference is showing, there is a clear, inexporable shift to the populist right continuing in the Tory Party. Some of the things leading Tory figures come out with now, we just wouldn’t have predicted or seen even in 2019.

    This is not a party that is going to react to defeat by shifting back to the centre (as much as I would love it to and give me a comfortable home again). I simply cannot see anything other than, to use a phrase I’m not tremendously fond of, a “hard right” attitude prevailing in the coming years. It is fertile ground for populist gobsh*tes like Farage to take control.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833
    Mortimer said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Hang on - is this a regional thing? Everyone I know in the South mows their lawn....
    In Norway, they all have robot lawn mowers, homes, hotels, the lot. Years ahead of us.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306

    Farooq said:

    Apparently the heckler who was removed from the hall was a Tory member of the GLA! :#

    What heckler? What was said?
    Just some shouting, don't know what was said. He was bundled out, and someone from GBNews followed him and recorded a short interview. I think it was Andrew Boff - that's a name I think I remember from Conhome in days gone by?
    Yes, quite prominent in his day. I was in the hall (no restrictions) and didn't see the incident.

    She gave a full-bore populist speech ("Human Right Act? I'm surprised they didn't call it the Criminal Rights Act!"), well-delivered with lots of applause. At the end about 2/3 of the audience gave her a standing ovation, though most of the rest weren't applauding at all. Certainly cemented her claim to a good chance to succeed Sunak.

    Chalk, before that, gave quite a decent speech on justice and rehabilitation - some routine Labour-bashing, but I thought he defended his brief well. Very little applause though - the crowd wanted more Trumpian oratory.
    Chalk was quite impressive on the Radio earlier. In the Sunak mould but good with it. Suella's speech was very well-delivered indeed.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280

    boulay said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
    Agree. I think it's a question of scale and/or level of manicure. If you have a large, or very well tended bit of grass, you're mowing the lawn. If you have a backyard patch of grass, or an orchard or paddock, you cut the grass.
    I don't think so, I think its more likely regional. A bit like the name for a bread roll across the nation (baps, rolls, barms etc).
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280
    Farooq said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Really? 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct
    I've been mowing my lawn all my life and I'm from Wiltshire.

    I don't disagree with your general point - there is a danger of the right of the Tory party believing that the way back is more extreme, when in reality, as Cameron showed, back to the centre is how you reconnect to reality the electorate.
    "I've been mowing my lawn all my life and I'm from Wiltshire."
    It sounds like your back garden is the WHOLE of Wiltshire
    I wish. I'm NOT Lord Bath.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 880

    boulay said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
    Agree. I think it's a question of scale and/or level of manicure. If you have a large, or very well tended bit of grass, you're mowing the lawn. If you have a backyard patch of grass, or an orchard or paddock, you cut the grass.
    Embarrassingly, I appear to have outed myself as not having a large or well tended bit of grass...
  • Unpopular said:

    Mortimer said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Hang on - is this a regional thing? Everyone I know in the South mows their lawn....
    Oooh, maybe, I've only ever heard of people cutting the grass. I've heard of Lawn parties, but never really heard of anyone referring to their lawn.

    If it is regional thing, I apologise for my slander towards Lawn-using southerners.
    It is those pesky elites that have lawns to cut......
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280
    IanB2 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Hang on - is this a regional thing? Everyone I know in the South mows their lawn....
    In Norway, they all have robot lawn mowers, homes, hotels, the lot. Years ahead of us.
    Down the road from me each night is a van with "Never mow your lawn again" on the side - they sell robot mowers. Must be a chore to take the ferry to Norway and back every day...

  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,250

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    It’s an over-engineered version of a standard Dutch roundabout. They do work really well. But this one (and the same design in Manchester) do look a bit like someone gave a Dutch blueprint to a bunch of HS2 engineers and said “here, build one of these”.

    LOL! 😂

    It probably can be done better, considering its an early adoption in the UK of what the Dutch have been doing for years no doubt it will evolve over time and future ones might be better.

    But functionally? Its a good idea and works well.

    The Dutch have nailed this for years. Build more roads, design well for active travel, everyone wins.

    Its great to see parts of the UK adopting the Dutch approach. Hopefully more do over time. Evolving the aesthetics to look better is a secondary priority over functionality.
    Yes, let’s all prioritise “functionality”. Eventually that way the whole of Britain can become a motorway and no one need ever get stuck in traffic because NO ONE WILL EVER WANT TO LIVE IN UGLY DEPRESSING BRITAIN

    This is, by the way, exactly what happened to thousands of American downtowns. They prioritised the functionality of driving and parking. By destroying millions of lovely old buildings to make way for car lots and wide roads

    Now no one wants to drive to the downtowns because they are hideous dystopias full of homeless people and empty car lots. = zero traffic. Problem solved
    That's funny because towns like Warrington and cities like Preston that are facilitating both driving and active travel, along with getting new builds, are rapidly growing in population not shrinking.

    Oh and home ownership rates are far higher than in miserably depressing London where most people have to work to pay rent with no hope of a home of their own.

    And the roads are free flowing. As are the cycle paths. With plenty of trees also along the routes too, even if not shown at the junctions.

    You have a very different idea of depressing to me. I find 21 people being forced into one two bedroom flat as they have nowhere else to live far more depressing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66941965
    I'm sorry but no one wants to live in Warrington. That's why it's affordable, and why BTL landlords haven't come sniffing.
    Most of the UK lives in towns like Warrington. Only there's hundreds of Warringtons dotted around the country each with a different name.

    Its only a tiny minority that lives in cities (and even in cities most still drive).

    Its an even smaller minority that lives in London, the only city where most have been forced off the road due to chronic overcrowding.
    38% of the UK population lives in a city (defined as a populous urban area with a population over 500k people). Not a majority, but not tiny either. (Source: http://www.demographia.com/db-worldua.pdf )

    We should neither ignore cities (which are, after all, the economic engines of the UK) nor ignore the majority of people who live in towns & the wider countryside.
    That data is only that high by merging neighbouring towns into built up urban areas. Here is the real data:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/understandingtownsinenglandandwalespopulationanddemographicanalysis/2021-02-24

    Cities excluding London make up 6.9 million people in England and Wales.

    The majority of England and Wales live in towns.
    You can’t exclude the population of London from “people who live in cities in England & Wales”. Come on.
    Fair but even including London you only get to 17m people (correction exc London is 8m, I copied off wrong column).

    Whereas 32.9 million live in towns.

    Towns dramatically exceed cities in England, nearly 2:1, not that you'd know it from our city based correspondents and media.
    For planning purposes, those areas that are contiguously built up with no rural / agricultural land around a city are really part of the city though. Hence my point that, according to a measure of those areas 38% of the UK population live in them.

    You might (reasonably) argue that these hinterlands have differing needs to the city cores & I wouldn’t argue with that, but I would argue that they are not going to be the same as rural towns, so lumping them in with the rural town population & calling them “non city” residents seems wrong to me.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306

    Scott_xP said:

    @christopherhope

    ** EXCLUSIVE **

    Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”

    Bloody hell.

    It's going to be the big reveal tomorrow, isn't it?

    Stupid idea, but stupid is as stupid does...
    OK lets play this scenario forward. Sunak announces that he is welcoming Nigel Farage to the party, with a peerage and a cabinet seat.

    I envisage that RefUK and ReFox and UKIP will huff and puff about betrayal. But many of their floating voters can be persuaded to come back to the Tories.

    But - and its a very big but. Farage is Kryptonite. Vote Leave kept him on the end of a very long poll for precisely this reason. For every voter the Tories would add with Lird Farage they would lose two? Three?

    Sunak has a glorious opportunity to reunify the party and lead it to a glorious and crushing defeat.
    If Rishi invites Farage into cabinet then he deserves the inevitable defenestration that will follow. I give it three months before Farage finds some wedge issue that gives him the ability to flounce and blame it all on Sunak, and ignite the next phase of the Tory Civil War.

    What I would say (as intimated up thread) is that if Farage is invited into the Tory Party I have absolutely no doubt, if standing and winning a Commons seat, he would be the next LOTO. The Tory Party is slowly morphing into GOPUK and this would just be their Trump moment.
    He may have rebuffed it as a notional idea. But if Richy has asked him to come in, offered him ermine and a plumb cabinet role then lets see if he is big enough to rebuff that.

    What job could he be given? Something currently occupied by a non-entity but is suitably Brexity for him? How about Home Secretary? He has spent a fair bit of time on a dinghy in the channel, make the Nigel responsible for sinking migrants.
    Farage wouldn’t want to be Home Secretary. He is a smart enough cookie to realise the problems in that department can’t be surmounted by rhetoric alone (see Braverman, Suella). He is in a lose-lose situation in such a role. He would inevitably fail at it, and he would lose his alt-right sheen.

    He would either want to be given a sinecure he could flounce from, or most likely if he ever was to join would simply be a blessing from the leadership to find him a safe seat for the next GE. In Parliament, he can be elected leader. That is the only role in the Tory Party he’d really want.
    I don't know why we're discussing this 'issue' - Farage is at the conference with GBNews. Rebel right wing Tories are welcoming him, and Rishi has been nice to him so he doesn't get a cob on and go back to Reform, which would certainly cost the Tories very dearly electorally. That's all. He's not joining the party let alone the Cabinet.
    He isn’t, yet. And I scoffed at this very thought only a few months back.

    But if there is one thing this conference is showing, there is a clear, inexporable shift to the populist right continuing in the Tory Party. Some of the things leading Tory figures come out with now, we just wouldn’t have predicted or seen even in 2019.

    This is not a party that is going to react to defeat by shifting back to the centre (as much as I would love it to and give me a comfortable home again). I simply cannot see anything other than, to use a phrase I’m not tremendously fond of, a “hard right” attitude prevailing in the coming years. It is fertile ground for populist gobsh*tes like Farage to take control.
    Cheer up, they might not lose!

    :innocent:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    IanB2 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Hang on - is this a regional thing? Everyone I know in the South mows their lawn....
    In Norway, they all have robot lawn mowers, homes, hotels, the lot. Years ahead of us.
    They are a great deal wealthier than us.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306
    Unpopular said:

    boulay said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
    Agree. I think it's a question of scale and/or level of manicure. If you have a large, or very well tended bit of grass, you're mowing the lawn. If you have a backyard patch of grass, or an orchard or paddock, you cut the grass.
    Embarrassingly, I appear to have outed myself as not having a large or well tended bit of grass...
    No, I'd see it as more casual self-effacement. A greater solecism imo would be to have small, rough patch of grass and state that you were off to 'mow the lawn'. Like having a pond and calling it a lake.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    ...

    IanB2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Apparently the heckler who was removed from the hall was a Tory member of the GLA! :#

    What heckler? What was said?
    Just some shouting, don't know what was said. He was bundled out, and someone from GBNews followed him and recorded a short interview. I think it was Andrew Boff - that's a name I think I remember from Conhome in days gone by?
    He's a bright, if somewhat eccentric guy, but has always managed to stay onside with his party. I wonder what his beef was?
    It was perceived transphobia. It is actually a bit odd as I don't have a distinct recollection of a gamey part of the speech about trans - it was obliquely referred to in the part about banning sex offenders from 'changing their identity' - but I could be misremembering. It'll be all over the news.
    It's, just, on BBC news channel at 1545, when Cruella launches into a Lyon-style anti-woke rant, but you only glimpse Boff being marched out; we don't hear his interjection. There's a later piece when he's being marched away outside the hall on YouTube; despite his fifty years of loyal service I suspect he's just burned a rather big bridge.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,441
    Farooq said:

    The heckler was hardly loud or disruptive. Very odd - being he’s an actual Tory - thought it was ridiculously heavy handed.

    Party looks to be heading to a split as it morphs into UKIP. People will generally be repelled from voting for it. Such niche issues as well - I mean, our public services are crumbling and they’re talking about woke ideology in science

    "That's why we're going to take on the powerful elites who..."
    [shouting from audience]
    "SEIZE HIM!"
    He’s so on his way to a camp in Rwanda right now to be corrected.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    edited October 2023
    Unpopular said:

    boulay said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
    Agree. I think it's a question of scale and/or level of manicure. If you have a large, or very well tended bit of grass, you're mowing the lawn. If you have a backyard patch of grass, or an orchard or paddock, you cut the grass.
    Embarrassingly, I appear to have outed myself as not having a large or well tended bit of grass...
    No grass here at Maison Carnyx - all given over to flowers for the bees and insects. So no idea what I say!
  • Unpopular said:

    boulay said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
    Agree. I think it's a question of scale and/or level of manicure. If you have a large, or very well tended bit of grass, you're mowing the lawn. If you have a backyard patch of grass, or an orchard or paddock, you cut the grass.
    Embarrassingly, I appear to have outed myself as not having a large or well tended bit of grass...
    No, I'd see it as more casual self-effacement. A greater solecism imo would be to have small, rough patch of grass and state that you were off to 'mow the lawn'. Like having a pond and calling it a lake.
    As solecisms go, 'mow the lawns' would be even more impressive.
  • Andrew Boff is a hero.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,250
    edited October 2023

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    It’s an over-engineered version of a standard Dutch roundabout. They do work really well. But this one (and the same design in Manchester) do look a bit like someone gave a Dutch blueprint to a bunch of HS2 engineers and said “here, build one of these”.

    LOL! 😂

    It probably can be done better, considering its an early adoption in the UK of what the Dutch have been doing for years no doubt it will evolve over time and future ones might be better.

    But functionally? Its a good idea and works well.

    The Dutch have nailed this for years. Build more roads, design well for active travel, everyone wins.

    Its great to see parts of the UK adopting the Dutch approach. Hopefully more do over time. Evolving the aesthetics to look better is a secondary priority over functionality.
    Yes, let’s all prioritise “functionality”. Eventually that way the whole of Britain can become a motorway and no one need ever get stuck in traffic because NO ONE WILL EVER WANT TO LIVE IN UGLY DEPRESSING BRITAIN

    This is, by the way, exactly what happened to thousands of American downtowns. They prioritised the functionality of driving and parking. By destroying millions of lovely old buildings to make way for car lots and wide roads

    Now no one wants to drive to the downtowns because they are hideous dystopias full of homeless people and empty car lots. = zero traffic. Problem solved
    That's funny because towns like Warrington and cities like Preston that are facilitating both driving and active travel, along with getting new builds, are rapidly growing in population not shrinking.

    Oh and home ownership rates are far higher than in miserably depressing London where most people have to work to pay rent with no hope of a home of their own.

    And the roads are free flowing. As are the cycle paths. With plenty of trees also along the routes too, even if not shown at the junctions.

    You have a very different idea of depressing to me. I find 21 people being forced into one two bedroom flat as they have nowhere else to live far more depressing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66941965
    I'm sorry but no one wants to live in Warrington. That's why it's affordable, and why BTL landlords haven't come sniffing.
    Most of the UK lives in towns like Warrington. Only there's hundreds of Warringtons dotted around the country each with a different name.

    Its only a tiny minority that lives in cities (and even in cities most still drive).

    Its an even smaller minority that lives in London, the only city where most have been forced off the road due to chronic overcrowding.
    38% of the UK population lives in a city (defined as a populous urban area with a population over 500k people). Not a majority, but not tiny either. (Source: http://www.demographia.com/db-worldua.pdf )

    We should neither ignore cities (which are, after all, the economic engines of the UK) nor ignore the majority of people who live in towns & the wider countryside.
    That data is only that high by merging neighbouring towns into built up urban areas. Here is the real data:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/understandingtownsinenglandandwalespopulationanddemographicanalysis/2021-02-24

    Cities excluding London make up 6.9 million people in England and Wales.

    The majority of England and Wales live in towns.
    You can’t exclude the population of London from “people who live in cities in England & Wales”. Come on.
    Fair but even including London you only get to 17m people (correction exc London is 8m, I copied off wrong column).

    Whereas 32.9 million live in towns.

    Towns dramatically exceed cities in England, nearly 2:1, not that you'd know it from our city based correspondents and media.
    Lets go with 2:1 then. City residents are hardly a ”tiny minority” are they? It’s that phrasing I’m really pushing back on.

    (It would be instructive to try and estimate GDP/capita for this town / city split too.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683

    Unpopular said:

    boulay said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
    Agree. I think it's a question of scale and/or level of manicure. If you have a large, or very well tended bit of grass, you're mowing the lawn. If you have a backyard patch of grass, or an orchard or paddock, you cut the grass.
    Embarrassingly, I appear to have outed myself as not having a large or well tended bit of grass...
    No, I'd see it as more casual self-effacement. A greater solecism imo would be to have small, rough patch of grass and state that you were off to 'mow the lawn'. Like having a pond and calling it a lake.
    As solecisms go, 'mow the lawns' would be even more impressive.
    Lawns makes perfect sense if you have more than one e.g. front and back, or either side of the privacy fence.
  • The heavy handed of his ejection is reminiscent of the treatment of Walter Wolfgang.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306
    ...
    IanB2 said:

    ...

    IanB2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Apparently the heckler who was removed from the hall was a Tory member of the GLA! :#

    What heckler? What was said?
    Just some shouting, don't know what was said. He was bundled out, and someone from GBNews followed him and recorded a short interview. I think it was Andrew Boff - that's a name I think I remember from Conhome in days gone by?
    He's a bright, if somewhat eccentric guy, but has always managed to stay onside with his party. I wonder what his beef was?
    It was perceived transphobia. It is actually a bit odd as I don't have a distinct recollection of a gamey part of the speech about trans - it was obliquely referred to in the part about banning sex offenders from 'changing their identity' - but I could be misremembering. It'll be all over the news.
    It's, just, on BBC news channel at 1545, when Cruella launches into a Lyon-style anti-woke rant, but you only glimpse Boff being marched out; we don't hear his interjection. There's a later piece when he's being marched away outside the hall on YouTube; despite his fifty years of loyal service I suspect he's just burned a rather big bridge.
    I wonder if they'll have to ask GBNews if they can use their footage. :D
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,272
    edited October 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Hang on - is this a regional thing? Everyone I know in the South mows their lawn....
    In Norway, they all have robot lawn mowers, homes, hotels, the lot. Years ahead of us.
    Robot lawn mowers and dog poo covered English lawns (or some from that bloody fox that keeps energetically shagging in the woods with that hell noise, EEE gads, what does the fox say, indeed).

    I don't know what wild animals come of the fjord tops in Norway, but perhaps the robot mower is a safer pursuit there.

    EDIT: come to think of it, what does the fox say was Norwegian. Perhaps they don't know.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,622
    edited October 2023

    boulay said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
    Agree. I think it's a question of scale and/or level of manicure. If you have a large, or very well tended bit of grass, you're mowing the lawn. If you have a backyard patch of grass, or an orchard or paddock, you cut the grass.
    Nah. The orchard gets strimmed. A paddock would be grazed. The back garden grass gets mown even though it it definitely not a lawn.

    The only time I would cut grass is with a scythe.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,250
    NB Here are some other ways to cut the UK population pie, courtesy of the ONS:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/rural-population-and-migration/rural-population-and-migration



    Note that the %ages under each subheading sum to that entry, so those under ”all rural areas” sum to 17.1%.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    I see 30yr gilts are now 5%.
  • OldBasingOldBasing Posts: 173
    If I were Sunak I'd do the HS2 announcement before tonight's Six O'Clock news as that heckler incident won't look good....
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,935

    Andy_JS said:

    Ukraine has a problem if the average age of their soldiers is over 40.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/average-age-ukraine-soldiers-front-over-40

    Why?
    • People over 40 can't fight.
    • If they are using people over 40 to fight, it means they're running out of people under 40 to fight
  • IanB2 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    Hang on - is this a regional thing? Everyone I know in the South mows their lawn....
    In Norway, they all have robot lawn mowers, homes, hotels, the lot. Years ahead of us.
    Robot hotel mowers? Is this new weaponry? Or are they hotels for robot lawns perhaps?

    I can see why they have not caught on over here.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,622
    Nigelb said:
    Its been time he shoved off for at least a decade.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,306

    boulay said:

    Unpopular said:

    Just getting caught up on the conference drama. I saw a comment yesterday that mentioned the GOPification of the Tories and I think that's what we're seeing. Braverman talking about lefties having immigrants 'mowing their lawns' is a particularly jarring Americanism. 'Cutting their grass' is the correct phrase. Without indulging my conspiracy brain too much, it all makes me think that her speech has been cooked up by some shadowy Yankee right-wing think-tank.

    Another point of worry is the Conservative Party railing against elites and the establishment. They're the Conservative Party, what are they for if not the establishment?

    And all the guff about failed immigration policies and how shit everything is and that it's all Labour's fault - they've been in power for 13 years! My flabber is gasted at the gall of senior Tories making these kind of arguments.

    What? “Mowing the lawn” is an Americanism in which world? I mow the lawn at least once a week but never “cut the grass” unless in a wilder area with a strimmer. I don’t know any of my British friends who wouldn’t say “mow the lawn”.
    Agree. I think it's a question of scale and/or level of manicure. If you have a large, or very well tended bit of grass, you're mowing the lawn. If you have a backyard patch of grass, or an orchard or paddock, you cut the grass.
    Nah. The orchard gets strimmed. A paddock would be grazed. The back garden grass gets mown even though it it definitely not a lawn.

    The only time I would cut grass is with a scythe.
    Not necessarily in either case. You could do an orchard on a ride on if you had wide enough gaps. And not every paddock/field has enough cattle or ponies on to keep the grass down without cutting it. You wouldn't say you were 'mowing the lawn' doing these things. I wouldn't anyway.
This discussion has been closed.