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This will make you even more confused about HS2 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited October 2023 in General
This will make you even more confused about HS2 – politicalbetting.com

After spending a week briefing that they're going to cut HS2, while suggesting that the full project is unsustainable, the Housing Minister now tells Sky News there is no announcement planned and "we're focused on delivering HS2". pic.twitter.com/E7IN9fSMdE

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,386
    They will leave HS2 as (another) unexploded bomb for Labour, IMO.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    edited September 2023
    GIN1138 said:

    They will leave HS2 as (another) unexploded bomb for Labour, IMO.

    There is no rational* reason to cut it, pre-election. Just delay the bits beyond Brum for procedural reasons but profess full support. You either win, cancel it, and no one cares five years later; or you lose and attack the other lot when they do.

    *In the narrow minded political sense.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2023
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT



    isam said:

    Terribly sad news, one of my closest friends is in critical condition having suffered a bleed on the brain Saturday night. He was rushed to hospital and had a heart attack in the ambulance. It appears likely they will switch the machine that is keeping him alive off tomorrow. He only turned 48 last month.

    The cause of it seems to be overdoing it at the gym last Monday - terrible neck pain followed instantly by excruciating headache, and despite being offered to be taken to A&E, he just dosed up on Neurofen all week, which didn’t do any good. Had he gone straight there he’d probably be recovering from an operation now. Someone said he couldn’t be bothered with the possible 16 hour wait at the hospital, others said he did go but there was a strike, although I don’t know if that is true or not

    Either way, it seems like putting off medical treatment has cost him his life. We all do it I think, hoping wherever is bothering us is just going to go away, but it’s crazy - even if turns out to be nothing, always best to be sure.

    Very sorry to hear this @isam. A lot of middle aged people do run into trouble at the gym... Of course exercise is good but for people in their 40s and 50s it's important to keep a close eye on blood pressure and cholesterol to make sure the heart/circulatory system is up to it the rigors its going to be put through...

    When symptoms started occurring he should certainly have looked for help, though like you say, putting off getting medical help is something we all do (men especially)

    Last year I was treated for cancer. I knew I was very likely to have the "C" as early as mid 2021 but I put of referring myself for months and months... Although in mitigation M'lud I was a carer for someone else and they themselves were terminally ill with metastatic breast cancer. So it was a very unusual situation to say the least..

    When I finally referred myself to a specialist I was stage 2 and as far as I know I've now been successfully treated but I am VERY lucky to get away with this. It could very easily have been a very different outcome.

    Anyway, I'm so sorry for you and your friend. Let us know what happens tomorrow.
    Thanks. Glad you are better, sounds like a tough time.

    I went to see him today, and although I knew there was very little chance of a recovery, seeing him breathing, albeit via a ventilator, gave me (false) hope. Tonight another mate went, and the nurse pretty much told him our friend was only being kept alive so we could say our goodbyes.

    He was/is someone who burnt the candle at both ends. Strong as a ox, probably to a fault - could drink 10 pints one night and go to the gym next day. One of the most popular people I know

    He text me at 22:45 Sat night to say something funny was on tv, and 15 mins later had collapsed.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,386
    edited September 2023
    isam said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT



    isam said:

    Terribly sad news, one of my closest friends is in critical condition having suffered a bleed on the brain Saturday night. He was rushed to hospital and had a heart attack in the ambulance. It appears likely they will switch the machine that is keeping him alive off tomorrow. He only turned 48 last month.

    The cause of it seems to be overdoing it at the gym last Monday - terrible neck pain followed instantly by excruciating headache, and despite being offered to be taken to A&E, he just dosed up on Neurofen all week, which didn’t do any good. Had he gone straight there he’d probably be recovering from an operation now. Someone said he couldn’t be bothered with the possible 16 hour wait at the hospital, others said he did go but there was a strike, although I don’t know if that is true or not

    Either way, it seems like putting off medical treatment has cost him his life. We all do it I think, hoping wherever is bothering us is just going to go away, but it’s crazy - even if turns out to be nothing, always best to be sure.

    Very sorry to hear this @isam. A lot of middle aged people do run into trouble at the gym... Of course exercise is good but for people in their 40s and 50s it's important to keep a close eye on blood pressure and cholesterol to make sure the heart/circulatory system is up to it the rigors its going to be put through...

    When symptoms started occurring he should certainly have looked for help, though like you say, putting off getting medical help is something we all do (men especially)

    Last year I was treated for cancer. I knew I was very likely to have the "C" as early as mid 2021 but I put of referring myself for months and months... Although in mitigation M'lud I was a carer for someone else and they themselves were terminally ill with metastatic breast cancer. So it was a very unusual situation to say the least..

    When I finally referred myself to a specialist I was stage 2 and as far as I know I've now been successfully treated but I am VERY lucky to get away with this. It could very easily have been a very different outcome.

    Anyway, I'm so sorry for you and your friend. Let us know what happens tomorrow.
    Thanks. Glad you are better, sounds like a tough time.

    I went to see him today, and although I knew there was very little chance of a recovery, seeing him breathing, albeit via a ventilator, gave me (false) hope. Tonight another mate went, and the nurse pretty much told him our friend was only being kept alive so we could say our goodbyes.

    He was/is someone who burnt the candle at both ends. Strong as a ox, probably to a fault - could drink 10 pints one night and go to the gym next day. One of the most popular people I know

    He text me at 22:45 Sat night to say something funny was on tv, and 15 mins later had collapsed.
    It's always strange when you see someone who for all intents and purposes is dead, breathing on a ventilator.

    I remember visiting my dad in hospital after he'd had a sudden cardiac arrest and they had him sat up in bed on a ventilator.

    His eyes were open and to look at him initially you would have thought he was fine... But on closer inspection his eyes were rolling to the back of his head and he was totally unresponsive to any outside stimulus. It was very eerie.

    Five days later they turned off his life support and he was gone... but of course he'd already left us.

    Please keep us updated. Hopefully your friend will be OK, but if not, remember, we're here you.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ..
    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT



    isam said:

    Terribly sad news, one of my closest friends is in critical condition having suffered a bleed on the brain Saturday night. He was rushed to hospital and had a heart attack in the ambulance. It appears likely they will switch the machine that is keeping him alive off tomorrow. He only turned 48 last month.

    The cause of it seems to be overdoing it at the gym last Monday - terrible neck pain followed instantly by excruciating headache, and despite being offered to be taken to A&E, he just dosed up on Neurofen all week, which didn’t do any good. Had he gone straight there he’d probably be recovering from an operation now. Someone said he couldn’t be bothered with the possible 16 hour wait at the hospital, others said he did go but there was a strike, although I don’t know if that is true or not

    Either way, it seems like putting off medical treatment has cost him his life. We all do it I think, hoping wherever is bothering us is just going to go away, but it’s crazy - even if turns out to be nothing, always best to be sure.

    Very sorry to hear this @isam. A lot of middle aged people do run into trouble at the gym... Of course exercise is good but for people in their 40s and 50s it's important to keep a close eye on blood pressure and cholesterol to make sure the heart/circulatory system is up to it the rigors its going to be put through...

    When symptoms started occurring he should certainly have looked for help, though like you say, putting off getting medical help is something we all do (men especially)

    Last year I was treated for cancer. I knew I was very likely to have the "C" as early as mid 2021 but I put of referring myself for months and months... Although in mitigation M'lud I was a carer for someone else and they themselves were terminally ill with metastatic breast cancer. So it was a very unusual situation to say the least..

    When I finally referred myself to a specialist I was stage 2 and as far as I know I've now been successfully treated but I am VERY lucky to get away with this. It could very easily have been a very different outcome.

    Anyway, I'm so sorry for you and your friend. Let us know what happens tomorrow.
    Thanks. Glad you are better, sounds like a tough time.

    I went to see him today, and although I knew there was very little chance of a recovery, seeing him breathing, albeit via a ventilator, gave me (false) hope. Tonight another mate went, and the nurse pretty much told him our friend was only being kept alive so we could say our goodbyes.

    He was/is someone who burnt the candle at both ends. Strong as a ox, probably to a fault - could drink 10 pints one night and go to the gym next day. One of the most popular people I know

    He text me at 22:45 Sat night to say something funny was on tv, and 15 mins later had collapsed.
    It's always strange when you see someone who for all intents and purposes is dead, breathing on a ventilator.

    I remember visiting my dad in hospital after he'd had a sudden cardiac arrest and they had him sat up in bed on a ventilator.

    His eyes were open and to look at him initially you would have thought he was fine... But on closer inspection his eyes were rolling to the back of his head and he was totally unresponsive to any outside stimulus. It was very eerie.

    Five days later they turned off his life support and he was gone... but of course he'd already left us.

    Please keep us updated. Hopefully your friend will be OK, but if not, remember, we're here you.
    That must have been so awful, I am sorry

    It sounds like the situation we are in now - his
    heart is strong but there is no response when
    they shine the light in his eyes.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,856
    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    You can't compare HS2 with, say, Spain bashing a line through the desert between Madrid and Barcelona, on a cost per mile basis.

    That's not to say we haven't overpaid, but international comparisons can be simplistic.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,952
    edited September 2023
    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    Is it caused by the huge cost of compensation in this country compared to elsewhere? Maybe it's because we're more densely populated than nearly every other European country, so whereas in places like Spain and France it's relatively easy to route a new train line through mostly empty areas, it's much more difficult to do that here. I was using the Spanish high speed trains in February/March this year and I was surprised to see how utterly empty a lot of the countryside was.

    Also, on the subject of cancelling the line to M'chester, what some people don't seem to realise is that they've already spent a huge amount of money on some of the infrastructure for the B'ham to M'chester route, so if they cancel it all of that will be wasted, and also all the disruption they've already caused in that area will have been for nothing. I hope Starmer decides to go ahead with it when he becomes PM (which seems very likely to happen now).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,403
    isam said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT



    isam said:

    Terribly sad news, one of my closest friends is in critical condition having suffered a bleed on the brain Saturday night. He was rushed to hospital and had a heart attack in the ambulance. It appears likely they will switch the machine that is keeping him alive off tomorrow. He only turned 48 last month.

    The cause of it seems to be overdoing it at the gym last Monday - terrible neck pain followed instantly by excruciating headache, and despite being offered to be taken to A&E, he just dosed up on Neurofen all week, which didn’t do any good. Had he gone straight there he’d probably be recovering from an operation now. Someone said he couldn’t be bothered with the possible 16 hour wait at the hospital, others said he did go but there was a strike, although I don’t know if that is true or not

    Either way, it seems like putting off medical treatment has cost him his life. We all do it I think, hoping wherever is bothering us is just going to go away, but it’s crazy - even if turns out to be nothing, always best to be sure.

    Very sorry to hear this @isam. A lot of middle aged people do run into trouble at the gym... Of course exercise is good but for people in their 40s and 50s it's important to keep a close eye on blood pressure and cholesterol to make sure the heart/circulatory system is up to it the rigors its going to be put through...

    When symptoms started occurring he should certainly have looked for help, though like you say, putting off getting medical help is something we all do (men especially)

    Last year I was treated for cancer. I knew I was very likely to have the "C" as early as mid 2021 but I put of referring myself for months and months... Although in mitigation M'lud I was a carer for someone else and they themselves were terminally ill with metastatic breast cancer. So it was a very unusual situation to say the least..

    When I finally referred myself to a specialist I was stage 2 and as far as I know I've now been successfully treated but I am VERY lucky to get away with this. It could very easily have been a very different outcome.

    Anyway, I'm so sorry for you and your friend. Let us know what happens tomorrow.
    Thanks. Glad you are better, sounds like a tough time.

    I went to see him today, and although I knew there was very little chance of a recovery, seeing him breathing, albeit via a ventilator, gave me (false) hope. Tonight another mate went, and the nurse pretty much told him our friend was only being kept alive so we could say our goodbyes.

    He was/is someone who burnt the candle at both ends. Strong as a ox, probably to a fault - could drink 10 pints one night and go to the gym next day. One of the most popular people I know

    He text me at 22:45 Sat night to say something funny was on tv, and 15 mins later had collapsed.
    Oh bugger, that's not good. Major sympathies @isam
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126
    Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    Is it caused by the huge cost of compensation in this country compared to elsewhere? Maybe it's because we're more densely populated than nearly every other European country, so whereas in places like Spain and France it's relatively easy to route a new train line through mostly empty areas, it's much more difficult to do that here. I was using the Spanish high speed trains in February/March this year and I was surprised to see how utterly empty a lot of the countryside was.

    Also, on the subject of cancelling the line to M'chester, what some people don't seem to realise is that they've already spent a huge amount of money on some of the infrastructure for the B'ham to M'chester route, so if they cancel it all of that will be wasted, and also all the disruption they've already caused in that area will have been for nothing. I hope Starmer decides to go ahead with it when he becomes PM (which seems very likely to happen now).
    It is a myth that compulsory purchases are the root of the insane extra costs of infrastructure in the UK versus France or Italy. For example these costs are around £3 bn for HS2, not £300 bn. The primary problem is the structure of cost plus contracts which effectively gives an open door for limitless cost over runs at no risk to the contractors. The revolving door between contractors and the delivery authority ensures that this cosy situation remains unchallenged. The lack of strategy in overall infrastructure design means delivery teams are dispersed at the end of each project and any in house expertise is lost.

    In short because the Tories flamed the civil service, the government ministries must rely on expensive consultants who may not be any more than so-so.

    It doesn't help that capital maintenance projects are the first thing that get cut since they are treated as an expense not as an essential part of avoiding long term asset degradation.

    So the problem is fundamental and it is one the Tories themselves created.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,154
    On topic:


  • I was an HS2 agnostic when the plans were first announced.

    I get a lot has changed since the original decision was made: costs have increased, the pandemic has added considerable uncertainty to passenger numbers...

    ...but cancelling now, when we've spent so much on it already, just looks stupid. It's like training for the London marathon all through the dark days of winter and then deciding in March you can't be bothered after all.

    I thought the word "conservative" -- and the whole Tory brand -- meant avoiding change for change's sake. But each new Prime Minister seems intent on trashing whatever their party's stood for before. Johnson kicked very long-serving colleagues like Ken Clarke out of the party. Truss threw conventional "balance the books" Tory fiscal policy out of the window. Now Sunak's going to scrap green targets (when climate change is accelerating), ditch "gold-standard" 'A'-levels (which even survived Gove's disruption 10 years ago), waste £££ on cancelling HS2... it's like the Conservatives don't know what "conservative" means any more.

    If they don't, how will the voters?

    If Johnson was lucky coming up against Livingstone and Corbyn, Starmer's been even luckier coming up against Johnson, Truss and Sunak.
  • Sympathies isam.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,137
    isam said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT



    isam said:

    Terribly sad news, one of my closest friends is in critical condition having suffered a bleed on the brain Saturday night. He was rushed to hospital and had a heart attack in the ambulance. It appears likely they will switch the machine that is keeping him alive off tomorrow. He only turned 48 last month.

    The cause of it seems to be overdoing it at the gym last Monday - terrible neck pain followed instantly by excruciating headache, and despite being offered to be taken to A&E, he just dosed up on Neurofen all week, which didn’t do any good. Had he gone straight there he’d probably be recovering from an operation now. Someone said he couldn’t be bothered with the possible 16 hour wait at the hospital, others said he did go but there was a strike, although I don’t know if that is true or not

    Either way, it seems like putting off medical treatment has cost him his life. We all do it I think, hoping wherever is bothering us is just going to go away, but it’s crazy - even if turns out to be nothing, always best to be sure.

    Very sorry to hear this @isam. A lot of middle aged people do run into trouble at the gym... Of course exercise is good but for people in their 40s and 50s it's important to keep a close eye on blood pressure and cholesterol to make sure the heart/circulatory system is up to it the rigors its going to be put through...

    When symptoms started occurring he should certainly have looked for help, though like you say, putting off getting medical help is something we all do (men especially)

    Last year I was treated for cancer. I knew I was very likely to have the "C" as early as mid 2021 but I put of referring myself for months and months... Although in mitigation M'lud I was a carer for someone else and they themselves were terminally ill with metastatic breast cancer. So it was a very unusual situation to say the least..

    When I finally referred myself to a specialist I was stage 2 and as far as I know I've now been successfully treated but I am VERY lucky to get away with this. It could very easily have been a very different outcome.

    Anyway, I'm so sorry for you and your friend. Let us know what happens tomorrow.
    Thanks. Glad you are better, sounds like a tough time.

    I went to see him today, and although I knew there was very little chance of a recovery, seeing him breathing, albeit via a ventilator, gave me (false) hope. Tonight another mate went, and the nurse pretty much told him our friend was only being kept alive so we could say our goodbyes.

    He was/is someone who burnt the candle at both ends. Strong as a ox, probably to a fault - could drink 10 pints one night and go to the gym next day. One of the most popular people I know

    He text me at 22:45 Sat night to say something funny was on tv, and 15 mins later had collapsed.
    Sounds like a classic Sub Arachnoid haemorrhage from a brain aneurysm, around 1% of us have them.

    There was no strike on the weekend or Monday last week, and on all days there has been emergency cover.

    Sad news
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    isam said:

    Terribly sad news, one of my closest friends is in critical condition having suffered a bleed on the brain Saturday night. He was rushed to hospital and had a heart attack in the ambulance. It appears likely they will switch the machine that is keeping him alive off tomorrow. He only turned 48 last month.

    The cause of it seems to be overdoing it at the gym last Monday - terrible neck pain followed instantly by excruciating headache, and despite being offered to be taken to A&E, he just dosed up on Neurofen all week, which didn’t do any good. Had he gone straight there he’d probably be recovering from an operation now. Someone said he couldn’t be bothered with the possible 16 hour wait at the hospital, others said he did go but there was a strike, although I don’t know if that is true or not

    Either way, it seems like putting off medical treatment has cost him his life. We all do it I think, hoping wherever is bothering us is just going to go away, but it’s crazy - even if turns out to be nothing, always best to be sure.

    Very sorry to hear this @isam. A lot of middle aged people do run into trouble at the gym... Of course exercise is good but for people in their 40s and 50s it's important to keep a close eye on blood pressure and cholesterol to make sure the heart/circulatory system is up to it the rigors its going to be put through...

    When symptoms started occurring he should certainly have looked for help. Though like you say, putting off getting medical help is something we all do (men especially)

    Last year I was treated for cancer. I knew I was very likely to have the "C" as early as mid 2021 but I put of referring myself for months and months... Although in mitigation M'lud I was a carer for someone else and they themselves were terminally ill with metastatic breast cancer. So it was a very unusual situation to say the least..

    When I finally referred myself to a specialist I was stage 2 and as far as I know I've now been successfully treated but I am VERY lucky to get away with this. It could very easily have been a very different outcome.

    Anyway, I'm so sorry for you and your friend. Let us know what happens tomorrow.
    Adding my sympathies. Sounds very difficult.
    FWIW I am also in the 'it will correct itself' category.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,137
    It sounds from this clip in the header that cabinet government has collapsed. Either this minister, or Grant Shapps doesn't know what they are talking about and have been hung out to dry.

    It reminds me of the fag end of Johnsons government, when a minister would appear on the morning news round to defend a position, only to find it changed an hour later.

    It is no longer a functioning government when it reaches this stage.
  • Foxy said:

    It sounds from this clip in the header that cabinet government has collapsed. Either this minister, or Grant Shapps doesn't know what they are talking about and have been hung out to dry.

    It reminds me of the fag end of Johnsons government, when a minister would appear on the morning news round to defend a position, only to find it changed an hour later.

    It is no longer a functioning government when it reaches this stage.

    It has sort of felt like that since last Spring/Summer when BJ chained himself to the radiators in no 10 only to be followed by Truss..... surely there's enough balls within the Blues to just call for an end to this. However, my money still remains on an Apr/May General Election (Easter is at end of March),
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,137

    Foxy said:

    It sounds from this clip in the header that cabinet government has collapsed. Either this minister, or Grant Shapps doesn't know what they are talking about and have been hung out to dry.

    It reminds me of the fag end of Johnsons government, when a minister would appear on the morning news round to defend a position, only to find it changed an hour later.

    It is no longer a functioning government when it reaches this stage.

    It has sort of felt like that since last Spring/Summer when BJ chained himself to the radiators in no 10 only to be followed by Truss..... surely there's enough balls within the Blues to just call for an end to this. However, my money still remains on an Apr/May General Election (Easter is at end of March),
    I think October 24 more likely, but May 2024 quite possible.

    Hard to know what policies they will run on, when even their ministers don't know.
  • Foxy said:

    It sounds from this clip in the header that cabinet government has collapsed. Either this minister, or Grant Shapps doesn't know what they are talking about and have been hung out to dry.

    It reminds me of the fag end of Johnsons government, when a minister would appear on the morning news round to defend a position, only to find it changed an hour later.

    It is no longer a functioning government when it reaches this stage.

    Another explanation is (ok this bit might seem far-fetched) that I was right. This was part of a kite-flying exercise between during the Commons recess before the party conference. But that like Gordon Brown's on-off election, speculation got out of hand as junior colleagues did not realise it was a kite. Another kite is the abolition of inheritance tax.
  • Happy European Day of Languages day everyone!
    https://edl.ecml.at/
  • Foxy said:
    You lie. They will keep making petrol cars in Sunderland just for the UK. Having us as the outlier of their global business strategy because we said so. Obeying the 17.4m people who voted for the right to buy a new petrol Qashqai in 2034...
  • isam said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT



    isam said:

    Terribly sad news, one of my closest friends is in critical condition having suffered a bleed on the brain Saturday night. He was rushed to hospital and had a heart attack in the ambulance. It appears likely they will switch the machine that is keeping him alive off tomorrow. He only turned 48 last month.

    The cause of it seems to be overdoing it at the gym last Monday - terrible neck pain followed instantly by excruciating headache, and despite being offered to be taken to A&E, he just dosed up on Neurofen all week, which didn’t do any good. Had he gone straight there he’d probably be recovering from an operation now. Someone said he couldn’t be bothered with the possible 16 hour wait at the hospital, others said he did go but there was a strike, although I don’t know if that is true or not

    Either way, it seems like putting off medical treatment has cost him his life. We all do it I think, hoping wherever is bothering us is just going to go away, but it’s crazy - even if turns out to be nothing, always best to be sure.

    Very sorry to hear this @isam. A lot of middle aged people do run into trouble at the gym... Of course exercise is good but for people in their 40s and 50s it's important to keep a close eye on blood pressure and cholesterol to make sure the heart/circulatory system is up to it the rigors its going to be put through...

    When symptoms started occurring he should certainly have looked for help, though like you say, putting off getting medical help is something we all do (men especially)

    Last year I was treated for cancer. I knew I was very likely to have the "C" as early as mid 2021 but I put of referring myself for months and months... Although in mitigation M'lud I was a carer for someone else and they themselves were terminally ill with metastatic breast cancer. So it was a very unusual situation to say the least..

    When I finally referred myself to a specialist I was stage 2 and as far as I know I've now been successfully treated but I am VERY lucky to get away with this. It could very easily have been a very different outcome.

    Anyway, I'm so sorry for you and your friend. Let us know what happens tomorrow.
    Thanks. Glad you are better, sounds like a tough time.

    I went to see him today, and although I knew there was very little chance of a recovery, seeing him breathing, albeit via a ventilator, gave me (false) hope. Tonight another mate went, and the nurse pretty much told him our friend was only being kept alive so we could say our goodbyes.

    He was/is someone who burnt the candle at both ends. Strong as a ox, probably to a fault - could drink 10 pints one night and go to the gym next day. One of the most popular people I know

    He text me at 22:45 Sat night to say something funny was on tv, and 15 mins later had collapsed.
    Sounds awful, and is a reminder that all of the things we break ourselves on the wheel for may not actually be worth it. Life is finite, go live it.
  • Happy European Day of Languages day everyone!
    https://edl.ecml.at/

    ברכות
  • Occamite solution?

    Rishi really doesn't like HS2 and never has.

    Rishi and Jim have spent the summer in No 10, coming up with a plan to kill HS2.

    That plan is struggling to survive contact with people outside the No 10 bubble.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Foxy said:

    It sounds from this clip in the header that cabinet government has collapsed. Either this minister, or Grant Shapps doesn't know what they are talking about and have been hung out to dry.

    It reminds me of the fag end of Johnsons government, when a minister would appear on the morning news round to defend a position, only to find it changed an hour later.

    It is no longer a functioning government when it reaches this stage.

    Fag end is a good description.

    It reminds me too of the fag end of John Major's (Thatcher's) Government. It felt just like this. A party in power that had burnt itself out. Bereft. Rudderless. Anarchic. But perhaps above all just very tired.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    carnforth said:

    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    You can't compare HS2 with, say, Spain bashing a line through the desert between Madrid and Barcelona, on a cost per mile basis.

    That's not to say we haven't overpaid, but international comparisons can be simplistic.
    While this doesn’t discount corruption and gross mismanagement from top to bottom, it *is* a fair point. In a cramped and densely populated area like the bottom half of England where not only are there more people’s properties to plough through but also the premium placed (psychologically and monetarily) on privately-owned space - it’s going to be more expensive than sparser, bigger nations.

    Also some countries, you might get lucky to even get asked before the bulldozers roll in.

    Not like this is a surprise to anyone though.
  • nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    Our costs for almost anything are a national scandal - especially when £lots is spent to build a new school which clearly cost £little.

    The sad thing is that the government turned this into a monster. Wanting to cut costs it loaded all the risk onto contractors who made the cost £stupid. Combine that with the endless political rows and rethinks and we have a core route costing £stupid which is engineered to carry trains that won't exist as speeds they wouldn't be able to do if they did.

    Fun fact regarding east-west links. Some Tories are encouraging scrapping HS2 north of the delta junction saying "build NPR instead".

    That would be difficult. A core section of NPR is HS2. Without HS2 the NPR project makes little financial sense to treasury psychopaths who in any case plan to let t'north argue about t'route of NPR before killing that as well.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Occamite solution?

    Rishi really doesn't like HS2 and never has.

    Rishi and Jim have spent the summer in No 10, coming up with a plan to kill HS2.

    That plan is struggling to survive contact with people outside the No 10 bubble.

    HS2? Let the people use helicopters.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Happy European Day of Languages day everyone!
    https://edl.ecml.at/

    Viel Spaß beim Tag der Sprachen!
  • Workplace absences 'at 10-year high' with stress the major cause of long-term sickness
    https://news.sky.com/story/workplace-absences-at-10-year-high-with-stress-the-major-cause-of-long-term-sickness-12969756
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,044
    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
  • Ghedebrav said:

    carnforth said:

    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    You can't compare HS2 with, say, Spain bashing a line through the desert between Madrid and Barcelona, on a cost per mile basis.

    That's not to say we haven't overpaid, but international comparisons can be simplistic.
    While this doesn’t discount corruption and gross mismanagement from top to bottom, it *is* a fair point. In a cramped and densely populated area like the bottom half of England where not only are there more people’s properties to plough through but also the premium placed (psychologically and monetarily) on privately-owned space - it’s going to be more expensive than sparser, bigger nations.

    Also some countries, you might get lucky to even get asked before the bulldozers roll in.

    Not like this is a surprise to anyone though.
    As has been pointed out, land costs and property purchase are a fraction of the costs. Yes ok, some sections get tunnelled purely for environmental reasons which adds to the cost as well.

    The Biggie? The risk management factor, and the political idiocy. The Spanish plan a route and build it. We plan a route. Argue about it for 15 years. Appoint several rounds of expensive consultants who cost load the project, contract in a consortium and drown them in legal requirements, and then after the start of works continually fiddle with both detail and the whole concept of what is being built where the tight legal contracts just load more and more and more cost on the project.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,154

    Happy European Day of Languages day everyone!
    https://edl.ecml.at/

    Semmi baj!
  • Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Foxy said:
    You lie. They will keep making petrol cars in Sunderland just for the UK. Having us as the outlier of their global business strategy because we said so. Obeying the 17.4m people who voted for the right to buy a new petrol Qashqai in 2034...
    Car manufacturers should have the right to build and sell cars with a manual crank handle. I'm not interested in buying one though.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:
    You lie. They will keep making petrol cars in Sunderland just for the UK. Having us as the outlier of their global business strategy because we said so. Obeying the 17.4m people who voted for the right to buy a new petrol Qashqai in 2034...
    Car manufacturers should have the right to build and sell cars with a manual crank handle. I'm not interested in buying one though.
    TBF Audi have been building cars without working indicators for the arrogant bellend market for decades now.
  • eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:
    You lie. They will keep making petrol cars in Sunderland just for the UK. Having us as the outlier of their global business strategy because we said so. Obeying the 17.4m people who voted for the right to buy a new petrol Qashqai in 2034...
    Car manufacturers should have the right to build and sell cars with a manual crank handle. I'm not interested in buying one though.
    I can't wait for the Daily Mail to start objecting. Their readers know that EVs are a lefties scam. They know that Sunak has prevented the evil Starmer's plan. So why would Nissan stop selling lovely petrol Micra's?

    They say it's because nobody will want to buy them. But that can't be right says the right-wing media, not with all the effort we are expending to lie about EVs.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,044
    Ghedebrav said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:
    You lie. They will keep making petrol cars in Sunderland just for the UK. Having us as the outlier of their global business strategy because we said so. Obeying the 17.4m people who voted for the right to buy a new petrol Qashqai in 2034...
    Car manufacturers should have the right to build and sell cars with a manual crank handle. I'm not interested in buying one though.
    TBF Audi have been building cars without working indicators for the arrogant bellend market for decades now.
    Thought that was BMW
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126

    Happy European Day of Languages day everyone!
    https://edl.ecml.at/

    Tervitused!
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:
    You lie. They will keep making petrol cars in Sunderland just for the UK. Having us as the outlier of their global business strategy because we said so. Obeying the 17.4m people who voted for the right to buy a new petrol Qashqai in 2034...
    Car manufacturers should have the right to build and sell cars with a manual crank handle. I'm not interested in buying one though.
    I can't wait for the Daily Mail to start objecting. Their readers know that EVs are a lefties scam. They know that Sunak has prevented the evil Starmer's plan. So why would Nissan stop selling lovely petrol Micra's?

    They say it's because nobody will want to buy them. But that can't be right says the right-wing media, not with all the effort we are expending to lie about EVs.
    First they came for the incandescent lightbulbs…
  • Remember that the Tories keep blaming Labour and Serkeir for things in their control. Perhaps we will get the comedy gold of Sunak standing in Manchester and saying how Serkeir once signed a petition against HS2 at Euston, so it's his fault that bit is cancelled, and unless you cite Tory then more of it will be cancelled.

    The only way to save HS2 is to vote Conservative. Announces Rishi Sunak. Behind a lectern saying Long-term decisions for a Brighter Future.
  • On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212

    Happy European Day of Languages day everyone!
    https://edl.ecml.at/

    ברכות
    안녕하십니까
  • EXPOSED: Keir Starmer the Liar, Murdoch's Man & Candidate for MI5
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv7sZoQkkns

    Peter Oborne, author of The Rise of Political Lying, worries that Starmer tells fibs.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779
    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    It sounds from this clip in the header that cabinet government has collapsed. Either this minister, or Grant Shapps doesn't know what they are talking about and have been hung out to dry.

    It reminds me of the fag end of Johnsons government, when a minister would appear on the morning news round to defend a position, only to find it changed an hour later.

    It is no longer a functioning government when it reaches this stage.

    Fag end is a good description.

    It reminds me too of the fag end of John Major's (Thatcher's) Government. It felt just like this. A party in power that had burnt itself out. Bereft. Rudderless. Anarchic. But perhaps above all just very tired.
    Public Chess Tables are the new Cones Hotline?
  • On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.

    The money wasted on unnecessary Health & Safety in construction is huge and mainly pointless
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    Is it caused by the huge cost of compensation in this country compared to elsewhere? Maybe it's because we're more densely populated than nearly every other European country, so whereas in places like Spain and France it's relatively easy to route a new train line through mostly empty areas, it's much more difficult to do that here. I was using the Spanish high speed trains in February/March this year and I was surprised to see how utterly empty a lot of the countryside was.

    Also, on the subject of cancelling the line to M'chester, what some people don't seem to realise is that they've already spent a huge amount of money on some of the infrastructure for the B'ham to M'chester route, so if they cancel it all of that will be wasted, and also all the disruption they've already caused in that area will have been for nothing. I hope Starmer decides to go ahead with it when he becomes PM (which seems very likely to happen now).
    It is a myth that compulsory purchases are the root of the insane extra costs of infrastructure in the UK versus France or Italy. For example these costs are around £3 bn for HS2, not £300 bn. The primary problem is the structure of cost plus contracts which effectively gives an open door for limitless cost over runs at no risk to the contractors. The revolving door between contractors and the delivery authority ensures that this cosy situation remains unchallenged. The lack of strategy in overall infrastructure design means delivery teams are dispersed at the end of each project and any in house expertise is lost.

    In short because the Tories flamed the civil service, the government ministries must rely on expensive consultants who may not be any more than so-so.

    It doesn't help that capital maintenance projects are the first thing that get cut since they are treated as an expense not as an essential part of avoiding long term asset degradation.

    So the problem is fundamental and it is one the Tories themselves created.
    Cost plus contracting is asking to be ripped off. Particularly when ministers constantly interfere to change plans.

    Heseltine, whom we were discussing yesterday, tried to do away with it at the MoD.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212

    On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.

    The money wasted on unnecessary Health & Safety in construction is huge and mainly pointless
    Unnecessary H&S is by definition completely pointless.
    There is also necessary H&S.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,375
    edited September 2023

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto.

    So again, if in 6 years time if you could get a cheap petrol vehicle like the Picanto for £13k in real terms, but if the cheapest electric is in real terms £21k (currently £27k is cheapest) then should the Picanto be outlawed and people who want to buy it be forced to pay eight grand more?

    We need to continue with what the market has been doing from Tesla onwards which is to start at the top of the market and work down with electrification, not the other way around. If in 2030 the only petrol vehicles the market still offers is 1.0 litre runarounds like the Picanto simply because electrification of them isn't affordably ready yet, then what's the harm in that?
  • eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:
    You lie. They will keep making petrol cars in Sunderland just for the UK. Having us as the outlier of their global business strategy because we said so. Obeying the 17.4m people who voted for the right to buy a new petrol Qashqai in 2034...
    Car manufacturers should have the right to build and sell cars with a manual crank handle. I'm not interested in buying one though.
    I can't wait for the Daily Mail to start objecting. Their readers know that EVs are a lefties scam. They know that Sunak has prevented the evil Starmer's plan. So why would Nissan stop selling lovely petrol Micra's?

    They say it's because nobody will want to buy them. But that can't be right says the right-wing media, not with all the effort we are expending to lie about EVs.
    Micra?

    I'm guessing you missed the fact that Nissan lost their marketshare with that already and it was discontinued already previously?

    They don't need to discontinue something by 2030 they've already discontinued. British politics has nothing to do with that, the market does.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
  • Nigelb said:

    On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.

    The money wasted on unnecessary Health & Safety in construction is huge and mainly pointless
    Unnecessary H&S is by definition completely pointless.
    There is also necessary H&S.
    To be fair it can be really difficult to know what is 'necessary' and 'unnecessary' H&S; you cannot tell what a provision did to prevent an incident if the incident did not occur. As avoiding injuries and deaths is seen as vital (and rightly so), it becomes necessary to chuck money at H&S.

    It's easy to say the money was wasted, unless it's your health or life on the line, doing the work. But sometimes the work needs to be done, and excess H&S can actually prevent work from being done.

    IMV the scaffolding staircase I mentioned below was unnecessary, especially as the people doing the work added ladders themselves, and other, higher, jobs, seem to manage without it. But neither do I want to go back to other, more dangerous, practices.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,375
    edited September 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
    And if it happens, then the market will take care of that.

    But if it hasn't?

    If in 2030 a 1.0 litre Picanto would cost £13k petrol while the cheapest EV is £21k [which is still a six grand plummet in costs from today] then would you criminalise the 1.0 litre Picanto?

    If its going to take until 2034 for EV affordability and production to scale up until the point that £13k EVs become available, then what should happen between 2030 and that point?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
    And if it happens, then the market will take care of that.

    But if it hasn't?

    If in 2030 a 1.0 litre Picanto would cost £13k petrol while the cheapest EV is £21k [which is still a six grand plummet in costs from today] then would you criminalise the 1.0 litre Picanto?

    If its going to take until 2034 for EV affordability and production to scale up until the point that £13k EVs become available, then what should happen at that point?
    The mass market manufacturers - as with Nissan - are planning to get out of ICE manufacturing altogether.
    And that's as much because of government action as it is the market.

    It's in our interests to encourage them to build here. Clinging on to legacy plants works against that at the margin.

    If government wants to do something constructive, they should be looking harder at incentives for charging infrastructure.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,044
    Nigelb said:

    On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.

    The money wasted on unnecessary Health & Safety in construction is huge and mainly pointless
    Unnecessary H&S is by definition completely pointless.
    There is also necessary H&S.
    I’d like to know what H&S is unnecessary.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,470
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.

    The money wasted on unnecessary Health & Safety in construction is huge and mainly pointless
    Unnecessary H&S is by definition completely pointless.
    There is also necessary H&S.
    To be fair it can be really difficult to know what is 'necessary' and 'unnecessary' H&S; you cannot tell what a provision did to prevent an incident if the incident did not occur. As avoiding injuries and deaths is seen as vital (and rightly so), it becomes necessary to chuck money at H&S.

    It's easy to say the money was wasted, unless it's your health or life on the line, doing the work. But sometimes the work needs to be done, and excess H&S can actually prevent work from being done.

    IMV the scaffolding staircase I mentioned below was unnecessary, especially as the people doing the work added ladders themselves, and other, higher, jobs, seem to manage without it. But neither do I want to go back to other, more dangerous, practices.
    Yes, H&S is one of those good ideas that gets discredited by being carried to extremes.

    I had an uncle died on a demolition site in 1950 when he was hit on the head by an oxygen bottle. No hard hats in those days, mate. Such a simple precaution would have saved him.

    Now I go to the park and see a four foot high ornamental water fountain with a large yellow sign on it saying 'Caution, slippery when wet', and I think to myself 'Somebody got paid for doing that?'

    Same everywhere, I suppose. No matter how sound the idea, there will be wankers who carry it beyond its useful extremities.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Incidentally, thanks to Brexit, we lost our chance to lead Europe in EV manufacturing.
    It ought not to be impossible to do something about that, but Luddite Rishi isn't helping.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,044

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
    And if it happens, then the market will take care of that.

    But if it hasn't?

    If in 2030 a 1.0 litre Picanto would cost £13k petrol while the cheapest EV is £21k [which is still a six grand plummet in costs from today] then would you criminalise the 1.0 litre Picanto?

    If its going to take until 2034 for EV affordability and production to scale up until the point that £13k EVs become available, then what should happen between 2030 and that point?
    I’d expect to see costs come down for EV as it moves towards mass market, so you get economies of scale, and a lot of the development costs are recovered.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
    And if it happens, then the market will take care of that.

    But if it hasn't?

    If in 2030 a 1.0 litre Picanto would cost £13k petrol while the cheapest EV is £21k [which is still a six grand plummet in costs from today] then would you criminalise the 1.0 litre Picanto?

    If its going to take until 2034 for EV affordability and production to scale up until the point that £13k EVs become available, then what should happen at that point?
    The mass market manufacturers - as with Nissan - are planning to get out of ICE manufacturing altogether.
    And that's as much because of government action as it is the market.

    It's in our interests to encourage them to build here. Clinging on to legacy plants works against that at the margin.

    If government wants to do something constructive, they should be looking harder at incentives for charging infrastructure.
    I completely agree with that.

    I also completely agree that the way that Sunak handled the car thing was completely cack-handed. To pledge to manufacturers one week the ban was proceeding, then drop it days later, with no review in-between is just plain dishonesty and shows a stunning lack of integrity.

    Given that the EU was going with 2035 as the date, the way I would have handled this if I were Prime Minister is to keep our 2030 date but with a review in 2029, if by 2029 there is still an eg eight grand cost differential between EVs and Petrols then I would postpone the transition by a couple of years, subject to reviews, until the cost differential closes. With no tariffs on imports since that'd be something we're not manufacturing ourselves as we're trying to embrace the future.

    But charging is the biggest issue. Especially charging for people who don't have off road parking.
  • Nigelb said:

    Happy European Day of Languages day everyone!
    https://edl.ecml.at/

    ברכות
    안녕하십니까
    טוב מאוד. איך אתה?
  • Some PB posters have claimed that allegations that Russian soldiers raped Ukrainian civilians were made up. This is the latest report from some of those who are working to collect evidence of Russian rape, torture and other human rights abuses in Ukraine.

    https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141417
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.

    The money wasted on unnecessary Health & Safety in construction is huge and mainly pointless
    Unnecessary H&S is by definition completely pointless.
    There is also necessary H&S.
    I’d like to know what H&S is unnecessary.
    H&S is largely applied common sense.
    It's only a problem because you can't rely on common sense being applied. Hence the absurd requirements to document and micromanage everything.

    'Necessary' includes being able to prove after the event to your insurers, or the courts, that your management of H&S was adequate.
  • .
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
    And if it happens, then the market will take care of that.

    But if it hasn't?

    If in 2030 a 1.0 litre Picanto would cost £13k petrol while the cheapest EV is £21k [which is still a six grand plummet in costs from today] then would you criminalise the 1.0 litre Picanto?

    If its going to take until 2034 for EV affordability and production to scale up until the point that £13k EVs become available, then what should happen between 2030 and that point?
    I’d expect to see costs come down for EV as it moves towards mass market, so you get economies of scale, and a lot of the development costs are recovered.
    So do I, which is why I had already planned in that for a six grand fall in EV costs from where they are today.

    A £14k fall in 6 years might be a stretch.

    If it happens though, great. That'd be fantastic.

    I just wouldn't start counting chickens yet six years before they're hatched.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,128

    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    Our costs for almost anything are a national scandal - especially when £lots is spent to build a new school which clearly cost £little.

    The sad thing is that the government turned this into a monster. Wanting to cut costs it loaded all the risk onto contractors who made the cost £stupid. Combine that with the endless political rows and rethinks and we have a core route costing £stupid which is engineered to carry trains that won't exist as speeds they wouldn't be able to do if they did.

    Fun fact regarding east-west links. Some Tories are encouraging scrapping HS2 north of the delta junction saying "build NPR instead".

    That would be difficult. A core section of NPR is HS2. Without HS2 the NPR project makes little financial sense to treasury psychopaths who in any case plan to let t'north argue about t'route of NPR before killing that as well.
    A relative in the building trade noted that the cost per m2 for building a school exceeded the cost m2 for luxury basement construction.

    Despite not including a swimming pool. For the school, that is.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.

    The money wasted on unnecessary Health & Safety in construction is huge and mainly pointless
    Unnecessary H&S is by definition completely pointless.
    There is also necessary H&S.
    To be fair it can be really difficult to know what is 'necessary' and 'unnecessary' H&S; you cannot tell what a provision did to prevent an incident if the incident did not occur. As avoiding injuries and deaths is seen as vital (and rightly so), it becomes necessary to chuck money at H&S.

    It's easy to say the money was wasted, unless it's your health or life on the line, doing the work. But sometimes the work needs to be done, and excess H&S can actually prevent work from being done.

    IMV the scaffolding staircase I mentioned below was unnecessary, especially as the people doing the work added ladders themselves, and other, higher, jobs, seem to manage without it. But neither do I want to go back to other, more dangerous, practices.
    Yes, H&S is one of those good ideas that gets discredited by being carried to extremes.

    I had an uncle died on a demolition site in 1950 when he was hit on the head by an oxygen bottle. No hard hats in those days, mate. Such a simple precaution would have saved him.

    Now I go to the park and see a four foot high ornamental water fountain with a large yellow sign on it saying 'Caution, slippery when wet', and I think to myself 'Somebody got paid for doing that?'

    Same everywhere, I suppose. No matter how sound the idea, there will be wankers who carry it beyond its useful extremities.
    Or wankers who try to sue you if you don't CYA in that very manner, alas. So insurers demand ...

    I Imagine a lot of that sort of thing is down to children. I forget the exact legislation, but I do recall from my professional training that children were a big problem - you couldn't just put up a Keep Out notice, as they were deemed irresponsible, unable to comprehend such things, etc.

    Edit: possibly HASAWA. Which also covers visitors official and otherwise, IIRC.
  • Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto.

    So again, if in 6 years time if you could get a cheap petrol vehicle like the Picanto for £13k in real terms, but if the cheapest electric is in real terms £21k (currently £27k is cheapest) then should the Picanto be outlawed and people who want to buy it be forced to pay eight grand more?

    We need to continue with what the market has been doing from Tesla onwards which is to start at the top of the market and work down with electrification, not the other way around. If in 2030 the only petrol vehicles the market still offers is 1.0 litre runarounds like the Picanto simply because electrification of them isn't affordably ready yet, then what's the harm in that?
    They won't be outlawed. And manufacturers will continue to make budget cars with petrol engines - they just won't sell them in Europe. That process is already happening and will not be stopped by Rishi faffing with dates.

    Nissan will not be an outlier in being EV only by 2030 - I expect that almost everyone will. The UK is one of few RHD markets so even if there is a need to build ICE vehicles for LHD we're an additional cost.

    Your £13k Picanto simply won't exist. And as it used to cost £7k in recent memory that shouldn't be a surprise. If we are lucky someone will be prepared to sell cars made for RHD markets here - we will get cast off cars designed for India...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,128

    .

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
    And if it happens, then the market will take care of that.

    But if it hasn't?

    If in 2030 a 1.0 litre Picanto would cost £13k petrol while the cheapest EV is £21k [which is still a six grand plummet in costs from today] then would you criminalise the 1.0 litre Picanto?

    If its going to take until 2034 for EV affordability and production to scale up until the point that £13k EVs become available, then what should happen between 2030 and that point?
    I’d expect to see costs come down for EV as it moves towards mass market, so you get economies of scale, and a lot of the development costs are recovered.
    So do I, which is why I had already planned in that for a six grand fall in EV costs from where they are today.

    A £14k fall in 6 years might be a stretch.

    If it happens though, great. That'd be fantastic.

    I just wouldn't start counting chickens yet six years before they're hatched.
    The other point is that a large chunk of the EV purchases at the moment are for corporate fleets and rental cars. Given the rate at which these are turned over, in 5 years there will be a flood of second hand EVs on the market.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
    And if it happens, then the market will take care of that.

    But if it hasn't?

    If in 2030 a 1.0 litre Picanto would cost £13k petrol while the cheapest EV is £21k [which is still a six grand plummet in costs from today] then would you criminalise the 1.0 litre Picanto?

    If its going to take until 2034 for EV affordability and production to scale up until the point that £13k EVs become available, then what should happen between 2030 and that point?
    I’d expect to see costs come down for EV as it moves towards mass market, so you get economies of scale, and a lot of the development costs are recovered.
    There's two factors at work.
    Firstly, the number of battery factories currently in production is a small fraction of what's planned and/or currently being built.
    Secondly, mass production battery technologies are improving both incrementally, and (possibly within the next three or four years) quite radically.

    Similarly with EV plants.

    All of this has been to some extent predictable for at least half a decade. It's bloody obvious now.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
    And if it happens, then the market will take care of that.

    But if it hasn't?

    If in 2030 a 1.0 litre Picanto would cost £13k petrol while the cheapest EV is £21k [which is still a six grand plummet in costs from today] then would you criminalise the 1.0 litre Picanto?

    If its going to take until 2034 for EV affordability and production to scale up until the point that £13k EVs become available, then what should happen at that point?
    The mass market manufacturers - as with Nissan - are planning to get out of ICE manufacturing altogether.
    And that's as much because of government action as it is the market.

    It's in our interests to encourage them to build here. Clinging on to legacy plants works against that at the margin.

    If government wants to do something constructive, they should be looking harder at incentives for charging infrastructure.
    Its an interesting idea - what would be the economics of building cars here for export to the poorer parts of Asia and southern Africa. Our RHD oddness is a problem.
  • Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.

    The money wasted on unnecessary Health & Safety in construction is huge and mainly pointless
    Unnecessary H&S is by definition completely pointless.
    There is also necessary H&S.
    To be fair it can be really difficult to know what is 'necessary' and 'unnecessary' H&S; you cannot tell what a provision did to prevent an incident if the incident did not occur. As avoiding injuries and deaths is seen as vital (and rightly so), it becomes necessary to chuck money at H&S.

    It's easy to say the money was wasted, unless it's your health or life on the line, doing the work. But sometimes the work needs to be done, and excess H&S can actually prevent work from being done.

    IMV the scaffolding staircase I mentioned below was unnecessary, especially as the people doing the work added ladders themselves, and other, higher, jobs, seem to manage without it. But neither do I want to go back to other, more dangerous, practices.
    Yes, H&S is one of those good ideas that gets discredited by being carried to extremes.

    I had an uncle died on a demolition site in 1950 when he was hit on the head by an oxygen bottle. No hard hats in those days, mate. Such a simple precaution would have saved him.

    Now I go to the park and see a four foot high ornamental water fountain with a large yellow sign on it saying 'Caution, slippery when wet', and I think to myself 'Somebody got paid for doing that?'

    Same everywhere, I suppose. No matter how sound the idea, there will be wankers who carry it beyond its useful extremities.
    Or wankers who try to sue you if you don't CYA in that very manner, alas. So insurers demand ...

    I Imagine a lot of that sort of thing is down to children. I forget the exact legislation, but I do recall from my professional training that children were a big problem - you couldn't just put up a Keep Out notice, as they were deemed irresponsible, unable to comprehend such things, etc.

    Edit: possibly HASAWA. Which also covers visitors official and otherwise, IIRC.
    You can't even simply put hazardous waste in a bin accessible by children as if it looks fun it's reasonably foreseeable they'll fish it out and play with it and could then harm themselves.
  • Looks like a coordinated letter-writing campaign today. Different anti-Tory letters signed by different industry groups (e.g. Make UK) and sent to at least .the FT and the Guardian. Haven't seen the Torygraph or Times but potentially letters sent to them as well.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,061

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:
    You lie. They will keep making petrol cars in Sunderland just for the UK. Having us as the outlier of their global business strategy because we said so. Obeying the 17.4m people who voted for the right to buy a new petrol Qashqai in 2034...
    Car manufacturers should have the right to build and sell cars with a manual crank handle. I'm not interested in buying one though.
    I can't wait for the Daily Mail to start objecting. Their readers know that EVs are a lefties scam. They know that Sunak has prevented the evil Starmer's plan. So why would Nissan stop selling lovely petrol Micra's?

    They say it's because nobody will want to buy them. But that can't be right says the right-wing media, not with all the effort we are expending to lie about EVs

    Madainn mhath a h-uile duine.

    Daily Mail readers won’t buy Japanese cars anyway, because, to them, WW2 hasn’t finished. (See also Germany)

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,061
    Will Starmer be brave enough to explain cost plus contracts to the electorate, and then promise to ban them?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,128
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    On construction:

    A little over a decade ago, a primary school we know had some roofing work done. It is a small single-storey building, and scaffolding was put up along one side.

    Along with this, they put up a scaffolding staircase, which was probably about half the total scaffolding used, and a materials hoist. I can understand the need for a materials hoist; but the staircase seemed an utter extravagance and waste of money over plain old ladders - which the people doing the work apparently later added.

    It is *really* easy to waste money on construction - particularly if it is other people's money.

    The money wasted on unnecessary Health & Safety in construction is huge and mainly pointless
    Unnecessary H&S is by definition completely pointless.
    There is also necessary H&S.
    I’d like to know what H&S is unnecessary.
    H&S is largely applied common sense.
    It's only a problem because you can't rely on common sense being applied. Hence the absurd requirements to document and micromanage everything.

    'Necessary' includes being able to prove after the event to your insurers, or the courts, that your management of H&S was adequate.
    Yup. Vast piles of paper, with a signature at the end. Somewhere in that, it asks have you considered that someone might slip on dust. And have you mitigated the problem?

    So you are covered in court.

    Of course, no one on the site will ever read the telephone directories of paper. So it’s up to someone to remember that brooms exist for a reason.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    I was listening to a podcast about this story on my commute this morning and it must be said, it sounds mad:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-03-24/everybodys-on-their-knees-the-fall-out-of-thurrocks-failed-investments

    Essentially one bloke turns up and starts saying to councils if they invest in his solar farms they'll get good ROI. To begin with, maybe this is legit, but he ends up taking half a billion from Thurrock Council and just wandering off with it? Shows the length local authorities are going to to try and keep up with government cuts, and the kind of sharks out there preying on them.
  • Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto...

    On the contrary, it's very likely indeed.
    Nor in the next couple of years, but certainly by 2030.
    The cost of providing a 70kWh battery pack - which would be sufficient for 95% of Picanto owners, and is 50% more than current entry level EVs - will plummet.

    Kia is already selling an EV for $20k in their home market.
    And if it happens, then the market will take care of that.

    But if it hasn't?

    If in 2030 a 1.0 litre Picanto would cost £13k petrol while the cheapest EV is £21k [which is still a six grand plummet in costs from today] then would you criminalise the 1.0 litre Picanto?

    If its going to take until 2034 for EV affordability and production to scale up until the point that £13k EVs become available, then what should happen between 2030 and that point?
    I’d expect to see costs come down for EV as it moves towards mass market, so you get economies of scale, and a lot of the development costs are recovered.
    There's two factors at work.
    Firstly, the number of battery factories currently in production is a small fraction of what's planned and/or currently being built.
    Secondly, mass production battery technologies are improving both incrementally, and (possibly within the next three or four years) quite radically.

    Similarly with EV plants.

    All of this has been to some extent predictable for at least half a decade. It's bloody obvious now.
    Roughly two possibilities.

    One is that the technology to make cheap electric cars does exist. In that case, signalling to manufacturers "you've got until date X to get ready" well in advance is an excellent way to get businesses to optimise and use the technology. Good, stable, regulation.

    The other is that it can't be done. In that case, as a society, we have a problem. We can't keep using ICE at the current rates. But again, we have a clear deadline to work out how we want to achieve the things we currently do with petrol cars.

    Worst thing is to keep mucking around with plans.

    See also HS2.
  • Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    Is it caused by the huge cost of compensation in this country compared to elsewhere? Maybe it's because we're more densely populated than nearly every other European country, so whereas in places like Spain and France it's relatively easy to route a new train line through mostly empty areas, it's much more difficult to do that here. I was using the Spanish high speed trains in February/March this year and I was surprised to see how utterly empty a lot of the countryside was.

    Also, on the subject of cancelling the line to M'chester, what some people don't seem to realise is that they've already spent a huge amount of money on some of the infrastructure for the B'ham to M'chester route, so if they cancel it all of that will be wasted, and also all the disruption they've already caused in that area will have been for nothing. I hope Starmer decides to go ahead with it when he becomes PM (which seems very likely to happen now).
    It is a myth that compulsory purchases are the root of the insane extra costs of infrastructure in the UK versus France or Italy. For example these costs are around £3 bn for HS2, not £300 bn. The primary problem is the structure of cost plus contracts which effectively gives an open door for limitless cost over runs at no risk to the contractors. The revolving door between contractors and the delivery authority ensures that this cosy situation remains unchallenged. The lack of strategy in overall infrastructure design means delivery teams are dispersed at the end of each project and any in house expertise is lost.

    In short because the Tories flamed the civil service, the government ministries must rely on expensive consultants who may not be any more than so-so.

    It doesn't help that capital maintenance projects are the first thing that get cut since they are treated as an expense not as an essential part of avoiding long term asset degradation.

    So the problem is fundamental and it is one the Tories themselves created.
    The partisan stuff is piss & wind - it would have happened under Labour and the Coalition, and how HMT thinks about book-balancing - but the rest of this is accurate.
  • Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto.

    So again, if in 6 years time if you could get a cheap petrol vehicle like the Picanto for £13k in real terms, but if the cheapest electric is in real terms £21k (currently £27k is cheapest) then should the Picanto be outlawed and people who want to buy it be forced to pay eight grand more?

    We need to continue with what the market has been doing from Tesla onwards which is to start at the top of the market and work down with electrification, not the other way around. If in 2030 the only petrol vehicles the market still offers is 1.0 litre runarounds like the Picanto simply because electrification of them isn't affordably ready yet, then what's the harm in that?
    They won't be outlawed. And manufacturers will continue to make budget cars with petrol engines - they just won't sell them in Europe. That process is already happening and will not be stopped by Rishi faffing with dates.

    Nissan will not be an outlier in being EV only by 2030 - I expect that almost everyone will. The UK is one of few RHD markets so even if there is a need to build ICE vehicles for LHD we're an additional cost.

    Your £13k Picanto simply won't exist. And as it used to cost £7k in recent memory that shouldn't be a surprise. If we are lucky someone will be prepared to sell cars made for RHD markets here - we will get cast off cars designed for India...
    Are you counting 2005 as "in recent memory"? In real terms its price has barely budged in the past eighteen years, its gone up a bit post-Covid as have all because of shortages etc in the market for electrics etc, but overall the price has been remarkably stable in real terms.

    We'll see what happens.

    If there's a real terms £13k EV in 2030 then I'll be delighted and ICE will be dead and buried, good riddance.

    If there's not, if only real terms £20k+ vehicles are still available, then we shouldn't be outlawing real terms £13k vehicles.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363

    Looks like a coordinated letter-writing campaign today. Different anti-Tory letters signed by different industry groups (e.g. Make UK) and sent to at least .the FT and the Guardian. Haven't seen the Torygraph or Times but potentially letters sent to them as well.

    THis, presuimably. When the Brexiters demand that we don't diverge ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/26/senior-business-leaders-back-keir-starmers-call-not-to-diverge-from-eu
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    I think the issue with HS2 is, in addition to the normal inevitable cost overruns you get with any large infrastructure project is that individually each (cost adding, time delaying) concession has made sense. What if nimby group stops this might a pressure group get a judge to JR that, yes you can have that tunnel in your marginal.
    But you add them all together and your just left with an Acton Aston expressway..
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,905

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto.

    So again, if in 6 years time if you could get a cheap petrol vehicle like the Picanto for £13k in real terms, but if the cheapest electric is in real terms £21k (currently £27k is cheapest) then should the Picanto be outlawed and people who want to buy it be forced to pay eight grand more?

    We need to continue with what the market has been doing from Tesla onwards which is to start at the top of the market and work down with electrification, not the other way around. If in 2030 the only petrol vehicles the market still offers is 1.0 litre runarounds like the Picanto simply because electrification of them isn't affordably ready yet, then what's the harm in that?
    Well manufacturers like Ford are already claiming they can no longer make money on small cars (ICE or electric) hence the demise of the Fiesta. The S. Koreans are well down the route of electrification. There will be no ICE or electric Picanto by 2030. Your best hope is if SAIC are still allowed to dump their petrol MGs in the UK. It looks like the EU are starting to panic and will stop unfair Chinese imports shortly, but Brexit means we can fill our boots.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ..
    148grss said:

    I was listening to a podcast about this story on my commute this morning and it must be said, it sounds mad:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-03-24/everybodys-on-their-knees-the-fall-out-of-thurrocks-failed-investments

    Essentially one bloke turns up and starts saying to councils if they invest in his solar farms they'll get good ROI. To begin with, maybe this is legit, but he ends up taking half a billion from Thurrock Council and just wandering off with it? Shows the length local authorities are going to to try and keep up with government cuts, and the kind of sharks out there preying on them.

    I watched a Panorama on that - an individual Tory councillor seems to blame, and Thurrock council will be making cuts for years to pay for it
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    148grss said:

    I was listening to a podcast about this story on my commute this morning and it must be said, it sounds mad:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-03-24/everybodys-on-their-knees-the-fall-out-of-thurrocks-failed-investments

    Essentially one bloke turns up and starts saying to councils if they invest in his solar farms they'll get good ROI. To begin with, maybe this is legit, but he ends up taking half a billion from Thurrock Council and just wandering off with it? Shows the length local authorities are going to to try and keep up with government cuts, and the kind of sharks out there preying on them.

    That might certainly be one of the things it shows.
  • Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    Is it caused by the huge cost of compensation in this country compared to elsewhere? Maybe it's because we're more densely populated than nearly every other European country, so whereas in places like Spain and France it's relatively easy to route a new train line through mostly empty areas, it's much more difficult to do that here. I was using the Spanish high speed trains in February/March this year and I was surprised to see how utterly empty a lot of the countryside was.

    Also, on the subject of cancelling the line to M'chester, what some people don't seem to realise is that they've already spent a huge amount of money on some of the infrastructure for the B'ham to M'chester route, so if they cancel it all of that will be wasted, and also all the disruption they've already caused in that area will have been for nothing. I hope Starmer decides to go ahead with it when he becomes PM (which seems very likely to happen now).
    The Times have a very good article on it today, if you can get behind the paywall.

    I have a theory that the more political a project is (like Palace of Westminster Restoration and Renewal, which is absolutely political and could fall or burn down at any time), or HS2, which simply crosses far too many constituencies for it not to be, the worse its governance will be because politicians simply can't help making kneejerk uninformed decisions and that's death to big infrastructure.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,128
    A

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:
    You lie. They will keep making petrol cars in Sunderland just for the UK. Having us as the outlier of their global business strategy because we said so. Obeying the 17.4m people who voted for the right to buy a new petrol Qashqai in 2034...
    Car manufacturers should have the right to build and sell cars with a manual crank handle. I'm not interested in buying one though.
    I can't wait for the Daily Mail to start objecting. Their readers know that EVs are a lefties scam. They know that Sunak has prevented the evil Starmer's plan. So why would Nissan stop selling lovely petrol Micra's?

    They say it's because nobody will want to buy them. But that can't be right says the right-wing media, not with all the effort we are expending to lie about EVs

    Madainn mhath a h-uile duine.

    Daily Mail readers won’t buy Japanese cars anyway, because, to them, WW2 hasn’t finished. (See also Germany)

    Interesting to consider the history of Japanese conglomerates during WWII and the fact that until quite recently (a decade or 2 ago), the owner contained numbers of people who had actual participated in what went on.

    Including mass slavery.

    Reparations, anyone?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    On EV cars we can argue the toss about price differentials, government policy, commercial factors. The market will sort it out with or without the government.

    What people are missing is that the announcement was made to send a message that a Conservative government won't force you to pay thousands upon thousands of pounds on the whim of some green edict or other.

    That is the clear blue water, or they hope it will be, between the parties.

    It is just about all they have but is close to peoples' lives so it might just help if not work.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363
    edited September 2023
    isam said:

    ..

    148grss said:

    I was listening to a podcast about this story on my commute this morning and it must be said, it sounds mad:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-03-24/everybodys-on-their-knees-the-fall-out-of-thurrocks-failed-investments

    Essentially one bloke turns up and starts saying to councils if they invest in his solar farms they'll get good ROI. To begin with, maybe this is legit, but he ends up taking half a billion from Thurrock Council and just wandering off with it? Shows the length local authorities are going to to try and keep up with government cuts, and the kind of sharks out there preying on them.

    I watched a Panorama on that - an individual Tory councillor seems to blame, and Thurrock council will be making cuts for years to pay for it
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/15/thurrock-council-hid-losses-gambled-millions-risky-investments

    What astounds me is that the council didn't even have the money to begin with to have someone take it off the council - it borrowed it from other councils if the summary here is correct.
  • Very sorry to read your news this morning @isam

    My condolences.
  • Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto.

    So again, if in 6 years time if you could get a cheap petrol vehicle like the Picanto for £13k in real terms, but if the cheapest electric is in real terms £21k (currently £27k is cheapest) then should the Picanto be outlawed and people who want to buy it be forced to pay eight grand more?

    We need to continue with what the market has been doing from Tesla onwards which is to start at the top of the market and work down with electrification, not the other way around. If in 2030 the only petrol vehicles the market still offers is 1.0 litre runarounds like the Picanto simply because electrification of them isn't affordably ready yet, then what's the harm in that?
    They won't be outlawed. And manufacturers will continue to make budget cars with petrol engines - they just won't sell them in Europe. That process is already happening and will not be stopped by Rishi faffing with dates.

    Nissan will not be an outlier in being EV only by 2030 - I expect that almost everyone will. The UK is one of few RHD markets so even if there is a need to build ICE vehicles for LHD we're an additional cost.

    Your £13k Picanto simply won't exist. And as it used to cost £7k in recent memory that shouldn't be a surprise. If we are lucky someone will be prepared to sell cars made for RHD markets here - we will get cast off cars designed for India...
    Are you counting 2005 as "in recent memory"? In real terms its price has barely budged in the past eighteen years, its gone up a bit post-Covid as have all because of shortages etc in the market for electrics etc, but overall the price has been remarkably stable in real terms.

    We'll see what happens.

    If there's a real terms £13k EV in 2030 then I'll be delighted and ICE will be dead and buried, good riddance.

    If there's not, if only real terms £20k+ vehicles are still available, then we shouldn't be outlawing real terms £13k vehicles.
    Again again - they aren't being outlawed. They will still be made in large numbers. They just won't be made *for Europe*. Kia build various cars that never come here. Other brands like Mitsubishi and Proton have exited completely but still make a lot of vehicles.

    So in 2030 the Tories propose that it will still be legal to sell cars that don't have a PHEV system. Great - who will still be making them? None of the mainstream manufacturers will be pushing the old technology - they are already resolutely on track to go fully EV (e.g Nissan, Volvo, MINI etc) as a matter of corporate survival against the chinese onslaught.

    You might see someone like Dacia - or new old brands recreated like Dacia. Still churning out low volume vehicles in the old tech. But at higher cost - lower numbers, lack of feed through of hand-me-down components. And we are RHD.

    If you want cheap then you're looking at the likes of Proton and Tata. Selling you budget cars built for 2nd world economies. Which is OK because thats how Kia started. But none of the big brands. ICE is dead whether the Tories like it or not.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,128

    Will Starmer be brave enough to explain cost plus contracts to the electorate, and then promise to ban them?

    You could only ban them if you agreed to stop fiddling with the projects. Which both the politicians and civil servants regard with horror .

    In the early days of the Commercial Cargo project, in the US, to send cargo to the international space station, this happened.

    The contracts were fixed price, payment on milestones. There was no mechanism for the politicians to twiddle things. Get X done, get paid Y.

    Senator Diane Feinstein complained at the lack of paperwork for her staff to review. What she meant - and was agreed by her fellows - was that she was being left out of the process.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    @isam yes sorry to hear about your mate.

    Didn't Andrew Marr suffer his stroke while on an exercise bike. So it is definitely a thing. Pretty much a significant part of the PB demographic, more or less.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:
    So.

    The market is deciding. The hysteria about the announcement last week was partly synthetic and partly misplaced. Just because people can sell something doesn’t mean they will.

    Auto makers work on cycle times of years on products and platforms. They’d not be likely to chop and change at the govts whim.
    But this can't be true. It was Keir Starmer forcing Nissan et al to ditch petrol. Sunak saved people from having to buy an electric car, it was in all the right newspapers and TV news shows. Thanks to Rishi making Long-Term Decisions for a Brighter Future, the dread threat of all EV by 2030 was removed.

    Nissan must be mistaken .
    Nissan don't make new cars at the £13k entry level range of the market like the Kia Picanto etc

    The Nissan Juke is their cheapest car at £21k: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles.html

    By 2030 it seems entirely plausible that an electric juke will be as cheap as a petrol Juke, but it does not look likely that an electric Picanto would be available as cheap as a petrol Picanto.

    So again, if in 6 years time if you could get a cheap petrol vehicle like the Picanto for £13k in real terms, but if the cheapest electric is in real terms £21k (currently £27k is cheapest) then should the Picanto be outlawed and people who want to buy it be forced to pay eight grand more?

    We need to continue with what the market has been doing from Tesla onwards which is to start at the top of the market and work down with electrification, not the other way around. If in 2030 the only petrol vehicles the market still offers is 1.0 litre runarounds like the Picanto simply because electrification of them isn't affordably ready yet, then what's the harm in that?
    They won't be outlawed. And manufacturers will continue to make budget cars with petrol engines - they just won't sell them in Europe. That process is already happening and will not be stopped by Rishi faffing with dates.

    Nissan will not be an outlier in being EV only by 2030 - I expect that almost everyone will. The UK is one of few RHD markets so even if there is a need to build ICE vehicles for LHD we're an additional cost.

    Your £13k Picanto simply won't exist. And as it used to cost £7k in recent memory that shouldn't be a surprise. If we are lucky someone will be prepared to sell cars made for RHD markets here - we will get cast off cars designed for India...
    Also a lot easier with EVs to switch between RHD and LHD.
  • Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    ..

    148grss said:

    I was listening to a podcast about this story on my commute this morning and it must be said, it sounds mad:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-03-24/everybodys-on-their-knees-the-fall-out-of-thurrocks-failed-investments

    Essentially one bloke turns up and starts saying to councils if they invest in his solar farms they'll get good ROI. To begin with, maybe this is legit, but he ends up taking half a billion from Thurrock Council and just wandering off with it? Shows the length local authorities are going to to try and keep up with government cuts, and the kind of sharks out there preying on them.

    I watched a Panorama on that - an individual Tory councillor seems to blame, and Thurrock council will be making cuts for years to pay for it
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/15/thurrock-council-hid-losses-gambled-millions-risky-investments

    What astounds me is that the council didn't even have the money to begin with to have someone take it off the council - it borrowed it from other councils if the summary here is correct.
    I think many more Councils will go bankrupt. They are not subject to the same scutiny or the same accountability as those in Central Government and have done some extraordinary things.
  • TOPPING said:

    On EV cars we can argue the toss about price differentials, government policy, commercial factors. The market will sort it out with or without the government.

    What people are missing is that the announcement was made to send a message that a Conservative government won't force you to pay thousands upon thousands of pounds on the whim of some green edict or other.

    That is the clear blue water, or they hope it will be, between the parties.

    It is just about all they have but is close to peoples' lives so it might just help if not work.

    Nobody was forcing anyone to pay thousands of pounds. Sunak has been widely mocked for his list of things he was cancelling which only ever existed on a policy proposal drawn up by his own government.

    As for the cost of EVs, the market doesn't give a fuck what the Tories say or think. As Nissan have confirmed, the date is 2030. Because they are now all in a race to survive the battle with SAIC, GWM etc flooding the market. They need to be first if they are to still be here in 2040.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    isam said:

    Terribly sad news, one of my closest friends is in critical condition having suffered a bleed on the brain Saturday night. He was rushed to hospital and had a heart attack in the ambulance. It appears likely they will switch the machine that is keeping him alive off tomorrow. He only turned 48 last month.

    The cause of it seems to be overdoing it at the gym last Monday - terrible neck pain followed instantly by excruciating headache, and despite being offered to be taken to A&E, he just dosed up on Neurofen all week, which didn’t do any good. Had he gone straight there he’d probably be recovering from an operation now. Someone said he couldn’t be bothered with the possible 16 hour wait at the hospital, others said he did go but there was a strike, although I don’t know if that is true or not

    Either way, it seems like putting off medical treatment has cost him his life. We all do it I think, hoping wherever is bothering us is just going to go away, but it’s crazy - even if turns out to be nothing, always best to be sure.

    That's very sad, isam.

    I had a similar episode last year, sudden extremely severe headache (had never experienced anything like it) with exertion on Sunday evening - I almost called 999, but then it eased. Next day it returned - although not as severe - again with exertion. I knew the possible link of symptoms to brain bleed, so got on the phone to GP, had a call back within 30 minutes, in person appointment that afternoon and was in hospital that evening. CT and LP confirmed no bleed and I was back home after ~24 hours.

    I hesitated to call it in, because I thought it very unlikely that I'd be otherwise asymptomatic with a brain bleed - have wondered since then whether I was right to call it in (GP assured me that I was, even though she agreed it was not very likely with my lack of other symptoms). Stories like yours remind us that it's better to let a professional check us over, rather than putting it off or attempting to self diagnose.

    My thoughts with you, your friend and his other friends and family.
  • Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    I expect them to scrap the link to Manchester and instead say they’ll improve west to east links . The public have never really got behind HS2 and the Tories want some cash to spend on other projects that are more voter friendly .

    Not sure if anyone saw Newsnight but the comparison between cost per mile of building track in the UK compared to other major country’s was shocking.

    Jaw dropping in fact .

    Is it caused by the huge cost of compensation in this country compared to elsewhere? Maybe it's because we're more densely populated than nearly every other European country, so whereas in places like Spain and France it's relatively easy to route a new train line through mostly empty areas, it's much more difficult to do that here. I was using the Spanish high speed trains in February/March this year and I was surprised to see how utterly empty a lot of the countryside was.

    Also, on the subject of cancelling the line to M'chester, what some people don't seem to realise is that they've already spent a huge amount of money on some of the infrastructure for the B'ham to M'chester route, so if they cancel it all of that will be wasted, and also all the disruption they've already caused in that area will have been for nothing. I hope Starmer decides to go ahead with it when he becomes PM (which seems very likely to happen now).
    The Times have a very good article on it today, if you can get behind the paywall.

    I have a theory that the more political a project is (like Palace of Westminster Restoration and Renewal, which is absolutely political and could fall or burn down at any time), or HS2, which simply crosses far too many constituencies for it not to be, the worse its governance will be because politicians simply can't help making kneejerk uninformed decisions and that's death to big infrastructure.
    I think we really need a dedicated national infrastructure council that is at one remove from day to day political machinations that can make these kinds of long term decisions, ideally creating a pipeline of projects so that expertise in planning and contracting is not lost from one project to the next.
    On Westminster I think the building is too expensive to renovate as a working Parliament. They should simply pay to preserve it as an important national monument and move the parliament elsewhere. Maybe put them in tunnels under Euston until they complete HS2 to Manchester and Leeds. That might concentrate minds s bit.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,866
    One to keep and eye on: Suella making a speech about the Refugee Convention.

    This could get very confused between: pragmatic reality, grandstanding, the press - both left and right, electioneering, lobbyists and extremists.

    FWIW I think there are a few uncomfortable realities.

    1) Status quo is unsustainable.
    2) Western opinion does not regard all refugees as the same, and this won't change. No politician can say this.
    3) About 2 billion people would have the right to refugee status given the desire and the chance.
    4) Being a refugee is a complete lottery/obstacle course. At one end you spend 40 years in a tent in a desert. At the other end you are housed in the most expensive city in the world and you children have every chance of going to Oxford.
    5) The real problem is the quality of governance in the countries being fled from.

    I agree with Suella (this is rare) that the Convention has to change, or else the UK has to go independent of it. A number of EU countries plainly think the same. The problem is what to replace it with.
  • Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    ..

    148grss said:

    I was listening to a podcast about this story on my commute this morning and it must be said, it sounds mad:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-03-24/everybodys-on-their-knees-the-fall-out-of-thurrocks-failed-investments

    Essentially one bloke turns up and starts saying to councils if they invest in his solar farms they'll get good ROI. To begin with, maybe this is legit, but he ends up taking half a billion from Thurrock Council and just wandering off with it? Shows the length local authorities are going to to try and keep up with government cuts, and the kind of sharks out there preying on them.

    I watched a Panorama on that - an individual Tory councillor seems to blame, and Thurrock council will be making cuts for years to pay for it
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/15/thurrock-council-hid-losses-gambled-millions-risky-investments

    What astounds me is that the council didn't even have the money to begin with to have someone take it off the council - it borrowed it from other councils if the summary here is correct.
    I think many more Councils will go bankrupt. They are not subject to the same scutiny or the same accountability as those in Central Government and have done some extraordinary things.
    I'm still waiting to hear why Surrey County Council are unable to cut foliage from roadsigns - those on the A31 are now completely buried, and look like it's 10 years after human civilisation has vanished.

    I have a theory (totally snookered by a multi year contract with no-break clauses, an incompetent/bankrupt contractor, and/or no funding in the council - and unable to unlock it) but I don't know for sure.
This discussion has been closed.