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This will make you even more confused about HS2 – politicalbetting.com

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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910
    Do we remember when Matthew Parris sampled a week on benefits after he suggested he could live on them without issue?

    After her speech today, perhaps we could ask Cruella to try living in Afghanistan. Hopefully for a lengthy experiment.
  • nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,540
    Nigelb said:

    There are eight Democratic seats up in swing or red states in 2024. Six of the Dems in/running for those seats have called for Menendez to resign (Brown, Tester, Casey, Baldwin, Rosen, Slotkin)

    The only two who haven't: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema

    https://twitter.com/stevemorris__/status/1706682579569565713

    Menendez does seem a wrong 'un.
  • Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    On the boring subject of 'AI'... (I don't know how that differs from normal software and I don't care to find out) I've noticed that if I give my students a translation exercise with a completely fictitious word (that is a word looks like a French or Russian word but I've just made it up) then the ones who cheat with ChatGPT (or whatever) submit a translation in which the 'AI' has tried to infer the meaning of my made up word. The ones who tried to do it for real leave it blank and ask what the word means.

    Maybe I'm very naive but I find it odd that some students who've presumably been told not to use ChatGPT decide to go ahead and use it anyway.
    Soon there will be chatbots that are entirely indistinguishable from humans, and undetectable as AI. Lord knows what educators (and others) do then

    My older daughter has been composing her personal statement for Uni application. She did a REALLY good job and I was proud of her. And yet, as I read it, I got the sinking feeling that in about 6 months ChatGPT5 will be able to outdo her - it can already outdo a few of her friends (she showed me some other statements when I asked)
    Hello again and a good sunny afternoon again, all.

    My nephew teaches at one of the more liberal-intellectual of the top public schools ( St Paul's, Westminster , Winchester etc, without naming which ) . He says that ChatGPT is a "growing problem" " particularly among the more lazy but also more able students, which I found interesting. It seems a lot of cleverer students enjoy the challenge of succesfully integrating ChatGpT's work with their own, thus simultaneously saving a lot of time, and simlutaneously outwitting the staff. This is apparently the latest thing as a trendy new skill among the pupils, which the teachers are trying to train themselves to recognise, and know when they see them.
    So I think using ChatGPT and similar as a resource is just a step further on from using google, wikipedia etc. All that has happened is that the search engine has taken the hits and written the essay too. If a student takes that as a start point, checks the facts, re-writes into their own voice, add appropriate referencing, then I have no issue. I am fairly sure my next research article will have some input done in just this way.

    Sadly the weaker and more lazy students will just take the ChatGPT answer and try to use it as their own.

    As generations of teachers would say, "you are only cheating yourselves..."
    Surely the essay is there to demonstrate to yourself and your teacher that you know stuff. If you get AI to write the essay, even if you then edit the content, then you probably don't know the stuff. This will surely be demonstrated when it comes to the exam. The reality is, they are only cheating themselves.
    Also, writing an essay really isn't that hard. And if you do find it hard you're not going to get any better at it if you never practice. And, if you find it hard to structure an essay, and never practice it, then go into an exam and try to do it under exam conditions... Again, utterly self-defeating, like all forms of cheating.
    I guess the only question is whether AI makes the acquisition of knowledge and the structuring of our thoughts and composition of an argument superfluous. But if it does, then we might as well just declare human civilisation to be at an end.
    Using essays as the yardstick by which to judge knowledge and intelligence is how we ended up with essay-crisis Prime Ministers like Cameron and Johnson.

    It was already a pretty poor way of judging whether people had the desired knowledge, but it was a convenient default to avoid thinking of a more creative and useful way to structure a test.

    If essay-crisis AIs lead to better ways of testing knowledge and proficiency then that will be a good thing.
    I think that the essays Cameron and Johnson wrote in their Oxford examinations (in which they earned a 1st in PPE and a 2:1 in classics respectively) were an accurate yardstick for measuring their intellectual abilities. Both are clearly intelligent men. Cameron's problem is that he overestimates himself, a typical characteristic of those with an elitist upbringing, and this led him to be lazy and take stupid risks like the EU referendum. Johnson's problem is that he is a congenital liar and narcissist. In both cases these are flaws of character, not intelligence, and I would argue were apparent before either of them took the top job. I wouldn't blame Oxford for this, except to the extent that it further burnished their egos and provided them with additional elite contacts to further their political goals.
    Oxbridge is great at burnishing egos. Which is good. Most people need an ego boost and a half. Not so good, however, when you start with someone who's already a narcissist.
    Please don’t tarnish Cambridge with Oxford.

    Cambridge creates nothing but modest self effacing people.
    And Soviet spies of course.
    They were triple agents.

    Remember Blunt ended up working for the Queen.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,945
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    On the boring subject of 'AI'... (I don't know how that differs from normal software and I don't care to find out) I've noticed that if I give my students a translation exercise with a completely fictitious word (that is a word looks like a French or Russian word but I've just made it up) then the ones who cheat with ChatGPT (or whatever) submit a translation in which the 'AI' has tried to infer the meaning of my made up word. The ones who tried to do it for real leave it blank and ask what the word means.

    Maybe I'm very naive but I find it odd that some students who've presumably been told not to use ChatGPT decide to go ahead and use it anyway.
    Soon there will be chatbots that are entirely indistinguishable from humans, and undetectable as AI. Lord knows what educators (and others) do then

    My older daughter has been composing her personal statement for Uni application. She did a REALLY good job and I was proud of her. And yet, as I read it, I got the sinking feeling that in about 6 months ChatGPT5 will be able to outdo her - it can already outdo a few of her friends (she showed me some other statements when I asked)
    Hello again and a good sunny afternoon again, all.

    My nephew teaches at one of the more liberal-intellectual of the top public schools ( St Paul's, Westminster , Winchester etc, without naming which ) . He says that ChatGPT is a "growing problem" " particularly among the more lazy but also more able students, which I found interesting. It seems a lot of cleverer students enjoy the challenge of succesfully integrating ChatGpT's work with their own, thus simultaneously saving a lot of time, and simlutaneously outwitting the staff. This is apparently the latest thing as a trendy new skill among the pupils, which the teachers are trying to train themselves to recognise, and know when they see them.
    So I think using ChatGPT and similar as a resource is just a step further on from using google, wikipedia etc. All that has happened is that the search engine has taken the hits and written the essay too. If a student takes that as a start point, checks the facts, re-writes into their own voice, add appropriate referencing, then I have no issue. I am fairly sure my next research article will have some input done in just this way.

    Sadly the weaker and more lazy students will just take the ChatGPT answer and try to use it as their own.

    As generations of teachers would say, "you are only cheating yourselves..."
    Indeed,
    Surely the essay is there to demonstrate to yourself and your teacher that you know stuff. If you get AI to write the essay, even if you then edit the content, then you probably don't know the stuff. This will surely be demonstrated when it comes to the exam. The reality is, they are only cheating themselves.
    Also, writing an essay really isn't that hard. And if you do find it hard you're not going to get any better at it if you never practice. And, if you find it hard to structure an essay, and never practice it, then go into an exam and try to do it under exam conditions... Again, utterly self-defeating, like all forms of cheating.
    I guess the only question is whether AI makes the acquisition of knowledge and the structuring of our thoughts and composition of an argument superfluous. But if it does, then we might as well just declare human civilisation to be at an end.
    Using essays as the yardstick by which to judge knowledge and intelligence is how we ended up with essay-crisis Prime Ministers like Cameron and Johnson.

    It was already a pretty poor way of judging whether people had the desired knowledge, but it was a convenient default to avoid thinking of a more creative and useful way to structure a test.

    If essay-crisis AIs lead to better ways of testing knowledge and proficiency then that will be a good thing.
    I think that the essays Cameron and Johnson wrote in their Oxford examinations (in which they earned a 1st in PPE and a 2:1 in classics respectively) were an accurate yardstick for measuring their intellectual abilities. Both are clearly intelligent men. Cameron's problem is that he overestimates himself, a typical characteristic of those with an elitist upbringing, and this led him to be lazy and take stupid risks like the EU referendum. Johnson's problem is that he is a congenital liar and narcissist. In both cases these are flaws of character, not intelligence, and I would argue were apparent before either of them took the top job. I wouldn't blame Oxford for this, except to the extent that it further burnished their egos and provided them with additional elite contacts to further their political goals.
    I cannot see evidence of Cameron having notable intelligence. His autobiography was alarmingly poor in terms of prose, and it also revealed that total lack of self awareness which you touch on

    Indeed, I reckon he is living proof that a really good education can punt a fairly mediocre brain an awful long way: ie into Oxford, onto a First, into Number 10

    It was only in Number 10 that his mediocrity became apparent
    While not necessarily disagreeing with your observation I am not sure 'alarmingly poor in terms of prose' is any measure of intelligence or lack of. Many clever people cannot write for toffee and many who can are not necessarily bright. It seems to me to be more of an art form. Like most (all?) artistic stuff if you are taught it and work at it you will get better, although there is clearly an underlying talent. I would compare it to painting.

    We are probably both quite biased as you are clearly very skilled at it and I am rubbish (I also can't paint).

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    So she’s saying that multiculturalism has failed but on the other hand she’s portraying herself as showing it hasn’t .
  • Do we remember when Matthew Parris sampled a week on benefits after he suggested he could live on them without issue?

    After her speech today, perhaps we could ask Cruella to try living in Afghanistan. Hopefully for a lengthy experiment.

    Wasn't it David Blunkett who said he had no sympathy with asylum seekers from Afghanistan and that they should go home and rebuild their own countries?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,232
    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    No irony - an example of integrating melting-pot style rather than multiculturally.
  • nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.

    Not my British culture!

  • "This is going to be "fun".

    Developer gets permission to build two blocks of flats.

    Developer builds flats to a different design and starts selling homes in flats.

    Council issues order to demolish the blocks and rebuilding them correctly."

    https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1706647481814069378

    "The two buildings differ in both external and internal design. Councillors approved two glass-clad blocks, but instead they were given metal features and grey cladding.

    Greenwich says that other breaches include:
    * Residents have poorer quality accommodation than was promised
    * Promised roof gardens and children’s play areas have not been built
    * The footprint of the towers is bigger than was promised
    * “accessible” apartments for wheelchair users have steps to their balconies, meaning residents cannot use them
    * car parking has replaced a promised landscaped garden
    * a residents’ gym has replaced commercial floorspace"

    The developer will, I expect, go bust, leaving the flatowners with an even bigger problem. But my question is why the council did not notice these massive lapses of the planning permission much earlier; say, before anyone moved in.

    Where's the building inspectors ?

    I expect it will end in a long legal battle with the owners/ tenants in unacceptable limbo
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited September 2023
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    On the boring subject of 'AI'... (I don't know how that differs from normal software and I don't care to find out) I've noticed that if I give my students a translation exercise with a completely fictitious word (that is a word looks like a French or Russian word but I've just made it up) then the ones who cheat with ChatGPT (or whatever) submit a translation in which the 'AI' has tried to infer the meaning of my made up word. The ones who tried to do it for real leave it blank and ask what the word means.

    Maybe I'm very naive but I find it odd that some students who've presumably been told not to use ChatGPT decide to go ahead and use it anyway.
    Soon there will be chatbots that are entirely indistinguishable from humans, and undetectable as AI. Lord knows what educators (and others) do then

    My older daughter has been composing her personal statement for Uni application. She did a REALLY good job and I was proud of her. And yet, as I read it, I got the sinking feeling that in about 6 months ChatGPT5 will be able to outdo her - it can already outdo a few of her friends (she showed me some other statements when I asked)
    Hello again and a good sunny afternoon again, all.

    My nephew teaches at one of the more liberal-intellectual of the top public schools ( St Paul's, Westminster , Winchester etc, without naming which ) . He says that ChatGPT is a "growing problem" " particularly among the more lazy but also more able students, which I found interesting. It seems a lot of cleverer students enjoy the challenge of succesfully integrating ChatGpT's work with their own, thus simultaneously saving a lot of time, and simlutaneously outwitting the staff. This is apparently the latest thing as a trendy new skill among the pupils, which the teachers are trying to train themselves to recognise, and know when they see them.
    So I think using ChatGPT and similar as a resource is just a step further on from using google, wikipedia etc. All that has happened is that the search engine has taken the hits and written the essay too. If a student takes that as a start point, checks the facts, re-writes into their own voice, add appropriate referencing, then I have no issue. I am fairly sure my next research article will have some input done in just this way.

    Sadly the weaker and more lazy students will just take the ChatGPT answer and try to use it as their own.

    As generations of teachers would say, "you are only cheating yourselves..."
    Indeed,
    Surely the essay is there to demonstrate to yourself and your teacher that you know stuff. If you get AI to write the essay, even if you then edit the content, then you probably don't know the stuff. This will surely be demonstrated when it comes to the exam. The reality is, they are only cheating themselves.
    Also, writing an essay really isn't that hard. And if you do find it hard you're not going to get any better at it if you never practice. And, if you find it hard to structure an essay, and never practice it, then go into an exam and try to do it under exam conditions... Again, utterly self-defeating, like all forms of cheating.
    I guess the only question is whether AI makes the acquisition of knowledge and the structuring of our thoughts and composition of an argument superfluous. But if it does, then we might as well just declare human civilisation to be at an end.
    Using essays as the yardstick by which to judge knowledge and intelligence is how we ended up with essay-crisis Prime Ministers like Cameron and Johnson.

    It was already a pretty poor way of judging whether people had the desired knowledge, but it was a convenient default to avoid thinking of a more creative and useful way to structure a test.

    If essay-crisis AIs lead to better ways of testing knowledge and proficiency then that will be a good thing.
    I think that the essays Cameron and Johnson wrote in their Oxford examinations (in which they earned a 1st in PPE and a 2:1 in classics respectively) were an accurate yardstick for measuring their intellectual abilities. Both are clearly intelligent men. Cameron's problem is that he overestimates himself, a typical characteristic of those with an elitist upbringing, and this led him to be lazy and take stupid risks like the EU referendum. Johnson's problem is that he is a congenital liar and narcissist. In both cases these are flaws of character, not intelligence, and I would argue were apparent before either of them took the top job. I wouldn't blame Oxford for this, except to the extent that it further burnished their egos and provided them with additional elite contacts to further their political goals.
    I cannot see evidence of Cameron having notable intelligence. His autobiography was alarmingly poor in terms of prose, and it also revealed that total lack of self awareness which you touch on

    Indeed, I reckon he is living proof that a really good education can punt a fairly mediocre brain an awful long way: ie into Oxford, onto a First, into Number 10

    It was only in Number 10 that his mediocrity became apparent
    While not necessarily disagreeing with your observation I am not sure 'alarmingly poor in terms of prose' is any measure of intelligence or lack of. Many clever people cannot write for toffee and many who can are not necessarily bright. It seems to me to be more of an art form. Like most (all?) artistic stuff if you are taught it and work at it you will get better, although there is clearly an underlying talent. I would compare it to painting.

    We are probably both quite biased as you are clearly very skilled at it and I am rubbish (I also can't paint).

    Yes, I admitted in a later comment that I possibly set too much store on good writing. Nonetheless I would still say that skilled use of language is indicative of intelligence, and a lack of that skill often (not always!) denotes dimness. Much more so than drawing or painting or whatever
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Braverman can pretend all she likes . She has zero empathy or humanity , she wants no asylum seekers and tries to pretend otherwise .
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910
    carnforth said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    Yes, immigrants must hold political views which are crude extrapolations of the circumstances of their birth. Otherwise they are being naughty. Can't have them thinking for themselves.
    I don't think @nico679 was suggesting that. I believe his statement was perfectly legitimate bearing in mind what she has just said.

    Now I believe immigration into Europe is an issue giving rise to rather concerning extremist politics including her own. Another irony as sitting Home Secretary is she is in a position to drive the agenda to a positive and workable conclusion rather than spit out sound bites
    that enthuse her more extreme fanbase.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910

    Do we remember when Matthew Parris sampled a week on benefits after he suggested he could live on them without issue?

    After her speech today, perhaps we could ask Cruella to try living in Afghanistan. Hopefully for a lengthy experiment.

    Wasn't it David Blunkett who said he had no sympathy with asylum seekers from Afghanistan and that they should go home and rebuild their own countries?
    He can join her if he likes.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,498
    edited September 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    On the boring subject of 'AI'... (I don't know how that differs from normal software and I don't care to find out) I've noticed that if I give my students a translation exercise with a completely fictitious word (that is a word looks like a French or Russian word but I've just made it up) then the ones who cheat with ChatGPT (or whatever) submit a translation in which the 'AI' has tried to infer the meaning of my made up word. The ones who tried to do it for real leave it blank and ask what the word means.

    Maybe I'm very naive but I find it odd that some students who've presumably been told not to use ChatGPT decide to go ahead and use it anyway.
    Soon there will be chatbots that are entirely indistinguishable from humans, and undetectable as AI. Lord knows what educators (and others) do then

    My older daughter has been composing her personal statement for Uni application. She did a REALLY good job and I was proud of her. And yet, as I read it, I got the sinking feeling that in about 6 months ChatGPT5 will be able to outdo her - it can already outdo a few of her friends (she showed me some other statements when I asked)
    Skills change.

    Now the key skill is coming up with the right prompts for ChatGPT, and being able to make sure what it produces doesn't look AI generated.
    As of now, AI is at the standard of a pretty average A Level student.
    If you know how to use AI tools like ChatGPT, they can be very powerful tools.

    Let me give two examples.

    (1) I was writing a proposal for a European insurance company, and wanted to write a summary of a particular country's market. I asked ChatGPT to summarise market size, major players, key industry dynamics, etc. I used that as a template for my work. Essentially nothing from ChatGPT survived the rounds of edits, fact checking and the like, but it saved me a couple of hours because I was starting from work that was not terrible.

    (2) My son was writing a history essay for school. I told him he couldn't use AI to write his answer, but he could use it to provide feedback. So, he said (roughly): the question was this, and this was my answer, what did I miss? ChatGPT gave him two or three points that he hadn't written about, that he went away and wrote about. He came top of the class. Would he have done so without ChatGPT telling him about things he'd missed? Probably not.
    That second one is a really clever use.
    Yes - and it is how ChatGPT is actually useful for various tasks. Asking it to write more than simple bits of code, get you code that does the wrong thing. But it can suggest chunks of code to simple task
    I use Amazon's (AI-based) CodeWhisperer, and it does indeed provide really useful ideas. The code it suggests doesn't usually work as it stands, and it sometimes gets the wrong idea completely, but its suggestions have certainly helped me improve my coding.
  • Do we remember when Matthew Parris sampled a week on benefits after he suggested he could live on them without issue?

    After her speech today, perhaps we could ask Cruella to try living in Afghanistan. Hopefully for a lengthy experiment.

    Wasn't it David Blunkett who said he had no sympathy with asylum seekers from Afghanistan and that they should go home and rebuild their own countries?
    He can join her if he likes.
    The irony is that Starmer's government will probably be tougher on immigration and asylum than the Tories have been.
  • Stocky said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    No irony - an example of integrating melting-pot style rather than multiculturally.
    Multiculturalism = Balkanisation.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Labour accused of grandstanding abroad says the woman that is grandstanding abroad !
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,945
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    On the boring subject of 'AI'... (I don't know how that differs from normal software and I don't care to find out) I've noticed that if I give my students a translation exercise with a completely fictitious word (that is a word looks like a French or Russian word but I've just made it up) then the ones who cheat with ChatGPT (or whatever) submit a translation in which the 'AI' has tried to infer the meaning of my made up word. The ones who tried to do it for real leave it blank and ask what the word means.

    Maybe I'm very naive but I find it odd that some students who've presumably been told not to use ChatGPT decide to go ahead and use it anyway.
    Soon there will be chatbots that are entirely indistinguishable from humans, and undetectable as AI. Lord knows what educators (and others) do then

    My older daughter has been composing her personal statement for Uni application. She did a REALLY good job and I was proud of her. And yet, as I read it, I got the sinking feeling that in about 6 months ChatGPT5 will be able to outdo her - it can already outdo a few of her friends (she showed me some other statements when I asked)
    Hello again and a good sunny afternoon again, all.

    My nephew teaches at one of the more liberal-intellectual of the top public schools ( St Paul's, Westminster , Winchester etc, without naming which ) . He says that ChatGPT is a "growing problem" " particularly among the more lazy but also more able students, which I found interesting. It seems a lot of cleverer students enjoy the challenge of succesfully integrating ChatGpT's work with their own, thus simultaneously saving a lot of time, and simlutaneously outwitting the staff. This is apparently the latest thing as a trendy new skill among the pupils, which the teachers are trying to train themselves to recognise, and know when they see them.
    So I think using ChatGPT and similar as a resource is just a step further on from using google, wikipedia etc. All that has happened is that the search engine has taken the hits and written the essay too. If a student takes that as a start point, checks the facts, re-writes into their own voice, add appropriate referencing, then I have no issue. I am fairly sure my next research article will have some input done in just this way.

    Sadly the weaker and more lazy students will just take the ChatGPT answer and try to use it as their own.

    As generations of teachers would say, "you are only cheating yourselves..."
    Indeed,
    Surely the essay is there to demonstrate to yourself and your teacher that you know stuff. If you get AI to write the essay, even if you then edit the content, then you probably don't know the stuff. This will surely be demonstrated when it comes to the exam. The reality is, they are only cheating themselves.
    Also, writing an essay really isn't that hard. And if you do find it hard you're not going to get any better at it if you never practice. And, if you find it hard to structure an essay, and never practice it, then go into an exam and try to do it under exam conditions... Again, utterly self-defeating, like all forms of cheating.
    I guess the only question is whether AI makes the acquisition of knowledge and the structuring of our thoughts and composition of an argument superfluous. But if it does, then we might as well just declare human civilisation to be at an end.
    Using essays as the yardstick by which to judge knowledge and intelligence is how we ended up with essay-crisis Prime Ministers like Cameron and Johnson.

    It was already a pretty poor way of judging whether people had the desired knowledge, but it was a convenient default to avoid thinking of a more creative and useful way to structure a test.

    If essay-crisis AIs lead to better ways of testing knowledge and proficiency then that will be a good thing.
    I think that the essays Cameron and Johnson wrote in their Oxford examinations (in which they earned a 1st in PPE and a 2:1 in classics respectively) were an accurate yardstick for measuring their intellectual abilities. Both are clearly intelligent men. Cameron's problem is that he overestimates himself, a typical characteristic of those with an elitist upbringing, and this led him to be lazy and take stupid risks like the EU referendum. Johnson's problem is that he is a congenital liar and narcissist. In both cases these are flaws of character, not intelligence, and I would argue were apparent before either of them took the top job. I wouldn't blame Oxford for this, except to the extent that it further burnished their egos and provided them with additional elite contacts to further their political goals.
    I cannot see evidence of Cameron having notable intelligence. His autobiography was alarmingly poor in terms of prose, and it also revealed that total lack of self awareness which you touch on

    Indeed, I reckon he is living proof that a really good education can punt a fairly mediocre brain an awful long way: ie into Oxford, onto a First, into Number 10

    It was only in Number 10 that his mediocrity became apparent
    While not necessarily disagreeing with your observation I am not sure 'alarmingly poor in terms of prose' is any measure of intelligence or lack of. Many clever people cannot write for toffee and many who can are not necessarily bright. It seems to me to be more of an art form. Like most (all?) artistic stuff if you are taught it and work at it you will get better, although there is clearly an underlying talent. I would compare it to painting.

    We are probably both quite biased as you are clearly very skilled at it and I am rubbish (I also can't paint).

    Yes, I admitted in a later comment that I possibly set too much store on good writing. Nonetheless I would still say that skilled use of language is indicative of intelligence, and a lack of that skill often (not always!) denotes dimness. Much more so than drawing or painting or whatever
    I think (in general) I would agree with that despite my earlier post.
  • nico679 said:

    Braverman can pretend all she likes . She has zero empathy or humanity , she wants no asylum seekers and tries to pretend otherwise .

    I think you're just racist and sexist against Asian ladies!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,226
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    There are eight Democratic seats up in swing or red states in 2024. Six of the Dems in/running for those seats have called for Menendez to resign (Brown, Tester, Casey, Baldwin, Rosen, Slotkin)

    The only two who haven't: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema

    https://twitter.com/stevemorris__/status/1706682579569565713

    Menendez does seem a wrong 'un.
    Absolutely.
    Trump praised him at the time of his last acquittal - which is not a good sign about anyone.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910

    Do we remember when Matthew Parris sampled a week on benefits after he suggested he could live on them without issue?

    After her speech today, perhaps we could ask Cruella to try living in Afghanistan. Hopefully for a lengthy experiment.

    Wasn't it David Blunkett who said he had no sympathy with asylum seekers from Afghanistan and that they should go home and rebuild their own countries?
    He can join her if he likes.
    The irony is that Starmer's government will probably be tougher on immigration and asylum than the Tories have been.
    Braverman's premise today is immigration/ asylum is an all or nothing binary choice. It is not, but it has been managed very poorly by the current Home Secretary. Perhaps Suella should pick a fight with them over their dereliction of duty.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,226
    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    There are eight Democratic seats up in swing or red states in 2024. Six of the Dems in/running for those seats have called for Menendez to resign (Brown, Tester, Casey, Baldwin, Rosen, Slotkin)

    The only two who haven't: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema

    https://twitter.com/stevemorris__/status/1706682579569565713

    Menendez does seem a wrong 'un.
    Absolutely.
    Trump praised him at the time of his last acquittal - which is not a good sign about anyone.
    Other Republicans seem quite keen.

    Senator Menendez has a right to test the government’s evidence in court, just like any other citizen. He should be judged by jurors and New Jersey’s voters, not by Democratic politicians who now view him as inconvenient to their hold on power.
    https://twitter.com/SenTomCotton/status/1706682272840130576
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,953

    Do we remember when Matthew Parris sampled a week on benefits after he suggested he could live on them without issue?

    After her speech today, perhaps we could ask Cruella to try living in Afghanistan. Hopefully for a lengthy experiment.

    Wasn't it David Blunkett who said he had no sympathy with asylum seekers from Afghanistan and that they should go home and rebuild their own countries?
    He can join her if he likes.
    The irony is that Starmer's government will probably be tougher on immigration and asylum than the Tories have been.
    Probably.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910

    nico679 said:

    Braverman can pretend all she likes . She has zero empathy or humanity , she wants no asylum seekers and tries to pretend otherwise .

    I think you're just racist and sexist against Asian ladies!
    I really wish you would desist with quite frankly offensive assertions to other posters. You had a go at me over some nonsense about an Asian group called "Karen" who I had never heard of, when I was referencing a certain type of white middle aged American woman.

    The key here is Braverman's distasteful Powellian speech and abject failure to focus responsibly on her job as Home Secretary.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,673

    Can I get some recommendations for restaurants in Henley-on-Thames please?

    If you have a vehicle with you, Tom Kerridge's places in Marlow, just up the road are as good as the hype. Bird in Hand is great and he has a butchers shop that doubles as a restaurant (Butcher's tap) was a good lunch option.
    Took my wife there recently for her 50th. Had a main course lamb dish shaped like a toffee apple. Tasty but you more wanted to photograph it than eat it.
  • "This is going to be "fun".

    Developer gets permission to build two blocks of flats.

    Developer builds flats to a different design and starts selling homes in flats.

    Council issues order to demolish the blocks and rebuilding them correctly."

    https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1706647481814069378

    "The two buildings differ in both external and internal design. Councillors approved two glass-clad blocks, but instead they were given metal features and grey cladding.

    Greenwich says that other breaches include:
    * Residents have poorer quality accommodation than was promised
    * Promised roof gardens and children’s play areas have not been built
    * The footprint of the towers is bigger than was promised
    * “accessible” apartments for wheelchair users have steps to their balconies, meaning residents cannot use them
    * car parking has replaced a promised landscaped garden
    * a residents’ gym has replaced commercial floorspace"

    The developer will, I expect, go bust, leaving the flatowners with an even bigger problem. But my question is why the council did not notice these massive lapses of the planning permission much earlier; say, before anyone moved in.

    Where's the building inspectors ?

    I expect it will end in a long legal battle with the owners/ tenants in unacceptable limbo
    In terms of building inspectors, I think their job is simply to ensure compliance with building regulations, not with planning approval, which is a different thing. That is, they are looking at safe construction, not whether it matches the planning permission. Also, whilst there are local authority building inspectors, I think it's more usual to go with a private, accredited building inspector.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910
    edited September 2023
    kinabalu said:

    Can I get some recommendations for restaurants in Henley-on-Thames please?

    If you have a vehicle with you, Tom Kerridge's places in Marlow, just up the road are as good as the hype. Bird in Hand is great and he has a butchers shop that doubles as a restaurant (Butcher's tap) was a good lunch option.
    Took my wife there recently for her 50th. Had a main course lamb dish shaped like a toffee apple. Tasty but you more wanted to photograph it than eat it.
    The Bird in Hand was very, very expensive, but it was worth every penny. I'd rather pay £90 for a sublime steak and chips than an inedible one at a fiver in an add-water-and-stir pub.
  • nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    So she’s saying that multiculturalism has failed but on the other hand she’s portraying herself as showing it hasn’t .
    No. She is demonstrating assimilation, not mutilculturalism.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    It's too bad about Asa Hutchinson not qualifying for the latest Republican debate. His experience makes him the most qualified person running -- in either party: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Hutchinson

    How many American voters know that? Fewer than 1 in 100, I would guess. (I blame our media.)

    I particularly like this story from early in his long career: "In 1982, President Ronald Reagan appointed Hutchinson U.S. attorney for the Western District of Arkansas. At age 31, Hutchinson was the nation's youngest U.S. attorney. He made national headlines after successfully prosecuting The Covenant, The Sword, and The Arm of the Lord (CSA), a white supremacist organization founded by polygamist James Ellison. The CSA forced a three-day armed standoff with local, state, and federal law enforcement. As U.S. attorney, Hutchinson personally negotiated a peaceful conclusion to the standoff.(Links omitted.)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,486
    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    There are eight Democratic seats up in swing or red states in 2024. Six of the Dems in/running for those seats have called for Menendez to resign (Brown, Tester, Casey, Baldwin, Rosen, Slotkin)

    The only two who haven't: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema

    https://twitter.com/stevemorris__/status/1706682579569565713

    Menendez does seem a wrong 'un.
    Absolutely.
    Trump praised him at the time of his last acquittal - which is not a good sign about anyone.
    Other Republicans seem quite keen.

    Senator Menendez has a right to test the government’s evidence in court, just like any other citizen. He should be judged by jurors and New Jersey’s voters, not by Democratic politicians who now view him as inconvenient to their hold on power.
    https://twitter.com/SenTomCotton/status/1706682272840130576
    Probably not a good time for Republicans to advocate for someone to withdraw from public life when they've been charged with, but not yet convicted of, serious offences.

    It's also very much in their interests for the story to run and run, and indeed for Menendez to stand in 2024.
  • Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    It's for the most part confected rubbish to mask her ineptitude for dealing with a serious and on going problem. OK, it's not just a UK issue, but we seem to be doing particularly badly in managing the problem. Remind me again who is the Home Secretary overseeing this debacle.
  • nico679 said:

    Braverman can pretend all she likes . She has zero empathy or humanity , she wants no asylum seekers and tries to pretend otherwise .

    I think you're just racist and sexist against Asian ladies!
    I really wish you would desist with quite frankly offensive assertions to other posters. You had a go at me over some nonsense about an Asian group called "Karen" who I had never heard of, when I was referencing a certain type of white middle aged American woman.
    Here you go:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_people

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayin_State (aka. Karen State)

    Karen Flag:
    image

    How the Myanmar Coup has affected the Karen ethnic group
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    It's not an "estimate" at all, it's a scary figure plucked from nowhere.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910

    nico679 said:

    Braverman can pretend all she likes . She has zero empathy or humanity , she wants no asylum seekers and tries to pretend otherwise .

    I think you're just racist and sexist against Asian ladies!
    I really wish you would desist with quite frankly offensive assertions to other posters. You had a go at me over some nonsense about an Asian group called "Karen" who I had never heard of, when I was referencing a certain type of white middle aged American woman.
    Here you go:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_people

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayin_State (aka. Karen State)

    Karen Flag:
    image

    How the Myanmar Coup has affected the Karen ethnic group
    Oh behave!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,945

    kinabalu said:

    Can I get some recommendations for restaurants in Henley-on-Thames please?

    If you have a vehicle with you, Tom Kerridge's places in Marlow, just up the road are as good as the hype. Bird in Hand is great and he has a butchers shop that doubles as a restaurant (Butcher's tap) was a good lunch option.
    Took my wife there recently for her 50th. Had a main course lamb dish shaped like a toffee apple. Tasty but you more wanted to photograph it than eat it.
    The Bird in Hand was very, very expensive, but it was worth every penny. I'd rather pay £90 for a sublime steak and chips than an inedible one at a fiver in an add-water-and-stir pub.
    Agree, but it depends upon your motivation for going out to eat. In my case I like cooking, but enjoy a quality meal beyond my ability, but for many the food isn't important and it is just for the company and not cooking and washing up.

    I would prefer to go out once and pay twice the price than go out twice and pay half the price. others think I am mad for paying so much for a meal but will go out more regularly.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    As a Buddhist married to a Jew?

    If nothing else, she gives us a good laugh.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,500

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    On the boring subject of 'AI'... (I don't know how that differs from normal software and I don't care to find out) I've noticed that if I give my students a translation exercise with a completely fictitious word (that is a word looks like a French or Russian word but I've just made it up) then the ones who cheat with ChatGPT (or whatever) submit a translation in which the 'AI' has tried to infer the meaning of my made up word. The ones who tried to do it for real leave it blank and ask what the word means.

    Maybe I'm very naive but I find it odd that some students who've presumably been told not to use ChatGPT decide to go ahead and use it anyway.
    Soon there will be chatbots that are entirely indistinguishable from humans, and undetectable as AI. Lord knows what educators (and others) do then

    My older daughter has been composing her personal statement for Uni application. She did a REALLY good job and I was proud of her. And yet, as I read it, I got the sinking feeling that in about 6 months ChatGPT5 will be able to outdo her - it can already outdo a few of her friends (she showed me some other statements when I asked)
    Skills change.

    Now the key skill is coming up with the right prompts for ChatGPT, and being able to make sure what it produces doesn't look AI generated.
    As of now, AI is at the standard of a pretty average A Level student.
    If you know how to use AI tools like ChatGPT, they can be very powerful tools.

    Let me give two examples.

    (1) I was writing a proposal for a European insurance company, and wanted to write a summary of a particular country's market. I asked ChatGPT to summarise market size, major players, key industry dynamics, etc. I used that as a template for my work. Essentially nothing from ChatGPT survived the rounds of edits, fact checking and the like, but it saved me a couple of hours because I was starting from work that was not terrible.

    (2) My son was writing a history essay for school. I told him he couldn't use AI to write his answer, but he could use it to provide feedback. So, he said (roughly): the question was this, and this was my answer, what did I miss? ChatGPT gave him two or three points that he hadn't written about, that he went away and wrote about. He came top of the class. Would he have done so without ChatGPT telling him about things he'd missed? Probably not.
    That second one is a really clever use.
    Yes - and it is how ChatGPT is actually useful for various tasks. Asking it to write more than simple bits of code, get you code that does the wrong thing. But it can suggest chunks of code to simple task
    I use Amazon's (AI-based) CodeWhisperer, and it does indeed provide really useful ideas. The code it suggests doesn't usually work as it stands, and it sometimes gets the wrong idea completely, but its suggestions have certainly helped me improve my coding.
    We use CoPilot for Golang, Terraform, Python, and JS.

    It's particularly good for the first two, which are quite boilerplate-heavy. The annoyances come mostly from stuff like suggesting functions that don't exist, and preferring to use deprecated options (particularly common with fast-moving Terraform providers).

    The real sweet spot for us is with less-experienced team members: it can make a pair of two junior devs as productive as a junior/senior pair was previously. They get a real confidence boost from getting something working, and I think they actually learn more from having to figure out what the code is doing for themselves.

    The biggest problems come when it produces code that works and passes tests, but will likely lead to maintenance problems in the future. So there's still a lot of mentoring needed - but overall, the experience has been really positive.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,673
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    On the boring subject of 'AI'... (I don't know how that differs from normal software and I don't care to find out) I've noticed that if I give my students a translation exercise with a completely fictitious word (that is a word looks like a French or Russian word but I've just made it up) then the ones who cheat with ChatGPT (or whatever) submit a translation in which the 'AI' has tried to infer the meaning of my made up word. The ones who tried to do it for real leave it blank and ask what the word means.

    Maybe I'm very naive but I find it odd that some students who've presumably been told not to use ChatGPT decide to go ahead and use it anyway.
    Soon there will be chatbots that are entirely indistinguishable from humans, and undetectable as AI. Lord knows what educators (and others) do then

    My older daughter has been composing her personal statement for Uni application. She did a REALLY good job and I was proud of her. And yet, as I read it, I got the sinking feeling that in about 6 months ChatGPT5 will be able to outdo her - it can already outdo a few of her friends (she showed me some other statements when I asked)
    Hello again and a good sunny afternoon again, all.

    My nephew teaches at one of the more liberal-intellectual of the top public schools ( St Paul's, Westminster , Winchester etc, without naming which ) . He says that ChatGPT is a "growing problem" " particularly among the more lazy but also more able students, which I found interesting. It seems a lot of cleverer students enjoy the challenge of succesfully integrating ChatGpT's work with their own, thus simultaneously saving a lot of time, and simlutaneously outwitting the staff. This is apparently the latest thing as a trendy new skill among the pupils, which the teachers are trying to train themselves to recognise, and know when they see them.
    So I think using ChatGPT and similar as a resource is just a step further on from using google, wikipedia etc. All that has happened is that the search engine has taken the hits and written the essay too. If a student takes that as a start point, checks the facts, re-writes into their own voice, add appropriate referencing, then I have no issue. I am fairly sure my next research article will have some input done in just this way.

    Sadly the weaker and more lazy students will just take the ChatGPT answer and try to use it as their own.

    As generations of teachers would say, "you are only cheating yourselves..."
    Indeed,
    Surely the essay is there to demonstrate to yourself and your teacher that you know stuff. If you get AI to write the essay, even if you then edit the content, then you probably don't know the stuff. This will surely be demonstrated when it comes to the exam. The reality is, they are only cheating themselves.
    Also, writing an essay really isn't that hard. And if you do find it hard you're not going to get any better at it if you never practice. And, if you find it hard to structure an essay, and never practice it, then go into an exam and try to do it under exam conditions... Again, utterly self-defeating, like all forms of cheating.
    I guess the only question is whether AI makes the acquisition of knowledge and the structuring of our thoughts and composition of an argument superfluous. But if it does, then we might as well just declare human civilisation to be at an end.
    Using essays as the yardstick by which to judge knowledge and intelligence is how we ended up with essay-crisis Prime Ministers like Cameron and Johnson.

    It was already a pretty poor way of judging whether people had the desired knowledge, but it was a convenient default to avoid thinking of a more creative and useful way to structure a test.

    If essay-crisis AIs lead to better ways of testing knowledge and proficiency then that will be a good thing.
    I think that the essays Cameron and Johnson wrote in their Oxford examinations (in which they earned a 1st in PPE and a 2:1 in classics respectively) were an accurate yardstick for measuring their intellectual abilities. Both are clearly intelligent men. Cameron's problem is that he overestimates himself, a typical characteristic of those with an elitist upbringing, and this led him to be lazy and take stupid risks like the EU referendum. Johnson's problem is that he is a congenital liar and narcissist. In both cases these are flaws of character, not intelligence, and I would argue were apparent before either of them took the top job. I wouldn't blame Oxford for this, except to the extent that it further burnished their egos and provided them with additional elite contacts to further their political goals.
    I cannot see evidence of Cameron having notable intelligence. His autobiography was alarmingly poor in terms of prose, and it also revealed that total lack of self awareness which you touch on

    Indeed, I reckon he is living proof that a really good education can punt a fairly mediocre brain an awful long way: ie into Oxford, onto a First, into Number 10

    It was only in Number 10 that his mediocrity became apparent
    While not necessarily disagreeing with your observation I am not sure 'alarmingly poor in terms of prose' is any measure of intelligence or lack of. Many clever people cannot write for toffee and many who can are not necessarily bright. It seems to me to be more of an art form. Like most (all?) artistic stuff if you are taught it and work at it you will get better, although there is clearly an underlying talent. I would compare it to painting.

    We are probably both quite biased as you are clearly very skilled at it and I am rubbish (I also can't paint).

    Yes, I admitted in a later comment that I possibly set too much store on good writing. Nonetheless I would still say that skilled use of language is indicative of intelligence, and a lack of that skill often (not always!) denotes dimness. Much more so than drawing or painting or whatever
    Probably true. Good writers can't be dim. So anytime I've called you dim would have been either in jest or when very angry due to provocation. Logic is your weak point. And one of my strongest as it happens. What we should do is get together and give mutual instruction. You teach me a few fancy words and I help you with the logical reasoning. Over beer and nuts if you like. Be enjoyable and both of us will benefit enormously. Well maybe not enormously but it'll be a worthwhile experience.
  • Chris said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    As a Buddhist married to a Jew?

    If nothing else, she gives us a good laugh.
    Ah, the subtle anti-Semitism!
  • Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    It's not an "estimate" at all, it's a scary figure plucked from nowhere.
    A more rigorous number might be even higher.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779

    Chris said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    As a Buddhist married to a Jew?

    If nothing else, she gives us a good laugh.
    Ah, the subtle anti-Semitism!
    If you think describing someone as a Jew is anti-semitic, you have a severe problem!
  • "This is going to be "fun".

    Developer gets permission to build two blocks of flats.

    Developer builds flats to a different design and starts selling homes in flats.

    Council issues order to demolish the blocks and rebuilding them correctly."

    https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1706647481814069378

    "The two buildings differ in both external and internal design. Councillors approved two glass-clad blocks, but instead they were given metal features and grey cladding.

    Greenwich says that other breaches include:
    * Residents have poorer quality accommodation than was promised
    * Promised roof gardens and children’s play areas have not been built
    * The footprint of the towers is bigger than was promised
    * “accessible” apartments for wheelchair users have steps to their balconies, meaning residents cannot use them
    * car parking has replaced a promised landscaped garden
    * a residents’ gym has replaced commercial floorspace"

    The developer will, I expect, go bust, leaving the flatowners with an even bigger problem. But my question is why the council did not notice these massive lapses of the planning permission much earlier; say, before anyone moved in.

    Where's the building inspectors ?

    I expect it will end in a long legal battle with the owners/ tenants in unacceptable limbo
    In terms of building inspectors, I think their job is simply to ensure compliance with building regulations, not with planning approval, which is a different thing. That is, they are looking at safe construction, not whether it matches the planning permission. Also, whilst there are local authority building inspectors, I think it's more usual to go with a private, accredited building inspector.
    I would query the footprint of the towers as I would have thought the footings would need approval
  • Farooq said:

    780,000,000 refugees
    7 bins each
    5,460,000,000 bins

    BRITAIN IS FULL

    full of bins

    Bin Laden?
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    780,000,000 refugees
    7 bins each
    5,460,000,000 bins

    BRITAIN IS FULL

    full of bins

    Bin Laden?
    You absolute monster, I was working up to exactly that joke. Here, have a like and never speak to me again.
    Apologies.
  • Farooq said:

    nico679 said:

    Braverman can pretend all she likes . She has zero empathy or humanity , she wants no asylum seekers and tries to pretend otherwise .

    I think you're just racist and sexist against Asian ladies!
    I really wish you would desist with quite frankly offensive assertions to other posters. You had a go at me over some nonsense about an Asian group called "Karen" who I had never heard of, when I was referencing a certain type of white middle aged American woman.
    Here you go:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_people

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayin_State (aka. Karen State)

    Karen Flag:
    image

    How the Myanmar Coup has affected the Karen ethnic group
    you're such a chad
    N'Djamena!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910
    edited September 2023

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    It's not an "estimate" at all, it's a scary figure plucked from nowhere.
    A more rigorous number might be even higher.
    350m a week on the side of a bus might be a convenient starting point.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    780,000,000 refugees
    7 bins each
    5,460,000,000 bins

    BRITAIN IS FULL

    full of bins

    Bin Laden?
    You absolute monster, I was working up to exactly that joke. Here, have a like and never speak to me again.
    I swear, I was just through researching the size of wheelie bins, and working out how much of the UK these 5.5 billion bins would fill (answer: Warwickshire), and then I was going to crash my bin laden joke into PB. And you. You ruined everything.
    We were talking about Saddam last night, so I guess we could say "Uday you're think you're kidding!"
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568
    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    New constituency poll alert:

    Lab and Con neck and neck in Tamworth

    https://x.com/BNHWalker/status/1706656062571483487?s=20

    A fairly healthy 11% Green and LD vote to squeeze if those numbers are correct, with a 10% Ref vote who I suspect might not turn out unless they're suddenly drawn to Motorists' Friend and scourge of woke climatologists Sunak.

    That is NOT a constituency poll. It is an extrapolation from national polling.
    If that just represents national polling, then we have to add on a by-election factor. By-elections usually show bigger swings. In which case, this should be a walk in the park for Labour.

    Or have they already done that?
    The Conservative vote share is down about 17%, from 2019, not 26% as shown in this projection. The Labour vote share is up about 12%, not 18%. So, it would seem that any boost from a by-election is already being factored in.
    No, as I understand it, *because* it's not a constituency poll. What an MRP does is adjust the national swing according to differential change in different demographic groups. So if the swing is higher among (say) leavers/renters/young people and smaller in (say) owner-occupiers, pensioners and Hindus, then it shows that the particular demographic features of Tamworth mean it's likely to swing more than the national figures. If it's true that by-elections produce larger swings, then it probably does mean Labour should be favourites.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,673

    kinabalu said:

    Can I get some recommendations for restaurants in Henley-on-Thames please?

    If you have a vehicle with you, Tom Kerridge's places in Marlow, just up the road are as good as the hype. Bird in Hand is great and he has a butchers shop that doubles as a restaurant (Butcher's tap) was a good lunch option.
    Took my wife there recently for her 50th. Had a main course lamb dish shaped like a toffee apple. Tasty but you more wanted to photograph it than eat it.
    The Bird in Hand was very, very expensive, but it was worth every penny. I'd rather pay £90 for a sublime steak and chips than an inedible one at a fiver in an add-water-and-stir pub.
    Yes it's out of the ordinary. Good for a special occasion imo.
  • Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    It's not an "estimate" at all, it's a scary figure plucked from nowhere.
    That's what an estimate is.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,673

    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    New constituency poll alert:

    Lab and Con neck and neck in Tamworth

    https://x.com/BNHWalker/status/1706656062571483487?s=20

    A fairly healthy 11% Green and LD vote to squeeze if those numbers are correct, with a 10% Ref vote who I suspect might not turn out unless they're suddenly drawn to Motorists' Friend and scourge of woke climatologists Sunak.

    That is NOT a constituency poll. It is an extrapolation from national polling.
    If that just represents national polling, then we have to add on a by-election factor. By-elections usually show bigger swings. In which case, this should be a walk in the park for Labour.

    Or have they already done that?
    The Conservative vote share is down about 17%, from 2019, not 26% as shown in this projection. The Labour vote share is up about 12%, not 18%. So, it would seem that any boost from a by-election is already being factored in.
    No, as I understand it, *because* it's not a constituency poll. What an MRP does is adjust the national swing according to differential change in different demographic groups. So if the swing is higher among (say) leavers/renters/young people and smaller in (say) owner-occupiers, pensioners and Hindus, then it shows that the particular demographic features of Tamworth mean it's likely to swing more than the national figures. If it's true that by-elections produce larger swings, then it probably does mean Labour should be favourites.
    Strong favourites per the betting.
  • kinabalu said:

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    And everyone in England is eligible under current rules to move to Newcastle.
    There are different pull factors involved, and if you turn up in Newcastle, they won't put you up in a 3-star hotel at taxpayers' expense.
  • kinabalu said:

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    And everyone in England is eligible under current rules to move to Newcastle.
    Ilford Road station - I've even been there! :lol:
  • "This is going to be "fun".

    Developer gets permission to build two blocks of flats.

    Developer builds flats to a different design and starts selling homes in flats.

    Council issues order to demolish the blocks and rebuilding them correctly."

    https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1706647481814069378

    "The two buildings differ in both external and internal design. Councillors approved two glass-clad blocks, but instead they were given metal features and grey cladding.

    Greenwich says that other breaches include:
    * Residents have poorer quality accommodation than was promised
    * Promised roof gardens and children’s play areas have not been built
    * The footprint of the towers is bigger than was promised
    * “accessible” apartments for wheelchair users have steps to their balconies, meaning residents cannot use them
    * car parking has replaced a promised landscaped garden
    * a residents’ gym has replaced commercial floorspace"

    The developer will, I expect, go bust, leaving the flatowners with an even bigger problem. But my question is why the council did not notice these massive lapses of the planning permission much earlier; say, before anyone moved in.

    Where's the building inspectors ?

    I expect it will end in a long legal battle with the owners/ tenants in unacceptable limbo
    In terms of building inspectors, I think their job is simply to ensure compliance with building regulations, not with planning approval, which is a different thing. That is, they are looking at safe construction, not whether it matches the planning permission. Also, whilst there are local authority building inspectors, I think it's more usual to go with a private, accredited building inspector.
    I would query the footprint of the towers as I would have thought the footings would need approval
    The point is that the job of building inspectors isn't to assess compliance with planning approval. They only look at compliance with building regulations, which is a separate matter.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557
    Farooq said:

    780,000,000 refugees
    7 bins each
    5,460,000,000 bins

    BRITAIN IS FULL

    full of bins

    Fuckers doing the bin Laden joke when I was busy. You can’t leave the site for a moment without someone stealing your joke that you haven’t come up with yet.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    Farooq said:

    780,000,000 refugees
    7 bins each
    5,460,000,000 bins

    BRITAIN IS FULL

    full of bins

    Bin Laden?
    7 bins for 7 brothers
  • Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    And everyone in England is eligible under current rules to move to Newcastle.
    People in Scotland massing at the border waiting to be allowed to live there. Sunderland and Middlesbro also top targets.

    I've been smuggling people across the Tweed for a few months now. Sure, one or two boats have sunk along the way, but please don't worry, it's not serious: they all paid me in advance.
    It's been two months since I paid LNER to smuggle me into Edinburgh to ride the new tram extension, so extortionate! And that was BEFORE they abolished return fares.
  • AlsoLei said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    On the boring subject of 'AI'... (I don't know how that differs from normal software and I don't care to find out) I've noticed that if I give my students a translation exercise with a completely fictitious word (that is a word looks like a French or Russian word but I've just made it up) then the ones who cheat with ChatGPT (or whatever) submit a translation in which the 'AI' has tried to infer the meaning of my made up word. The ones who tried to do it for real leave it blank and ask what the word means.

    Maybe I'm very naive but I find it odd that some students who've presumably been told not to use ChatGPT decide to go ahead and use it anyway.
    Soon there will be chatbots that are entirely indistinguishable from humans, and undetectable as AI. Lord knows what educators (and others) do then

    My older daughter has been composing her personal statement for Uni application. She did a REALLY good job and I was proud of her. And yet, as I read it, I got the sinking feeling that in about 6 months ChatGPT5 will be able to outdo her - it can already outdo a few of her friends (she showed me some other statements when I asked)
    Skills change.

    Now the key skill is coming up with the right prompts for ChatGPT, and being able to make sure what it produces doesn't look AI generated.
    As of now, AI is at the standard of a pretty average A Level student.
    If you know how to use AI tools like ChatGPT, they can be very powerful tools.

    Let me give two examples.

    (1) I was writing a proposal for a European insurance company, and wanted to write a summary of a particular country's market. I asked ChatGPT to summarise market size, major players, key industry dynamics, etc. I used that as a template for my work. Essentially nothing from ChatGPT survived the rounds of edits, fact checking and the like, but it saved me a couple of hours because I was starting from work that was not terrible.

    (2) My son was writing a history essay for school. I told him he couldn't use AI to write his answer, but he could use it to provide feedback. So, he said (roughly): the question was this, and this was my answer, what did I miss? ChatGPT gave him two or three points that he hadn't written about, that he went away and wrote about. He came top of the class. Would he have done so without ChatGPT telling him about things he'd missed? Probably not.
    That second one is a really clever use.
    Yes - and it is how ChatGPT is actually useful for various tasks. Asking it to write more than simple bits of code, get you code that does the wrong thing. But it can suggest chunks of code to simple task
    I use Amazon's (AI-based) CodeWhisperer, and it does indeed provide really useful ideas. The code it suggests doesn't usually work as it stands, and it sometimes gets the wrong idea completely, but its suggestions have certainly helped me improve my coding.
    We use CoPilot for Golang, Terraform, Python, and JS.

    It's particularly good for the first two, which are quite boilerplate-heavy. The annoyances come mostly from stuff like suggesting functions that don't exist, and preferring to use deprecated options (particularly common with fast-moving Terraform providers).

    The real sweet spot for us is with less-experienced team members: it can make a pair of two junior devs as productive as a junior/senior pair was previously. They get a real confidence boost from getting something working, and I think they actually learn more from having to figure out what the code is doing for themselves.

    The biggest problems come when it produces code that works and passes tests, but will likely lead to maintenance problems in the future. So there's still a lot of mentoring needed - but overall, the experience has been really positive.
    If you want fun, try passing in a small piece of existing working code, and ask it to optimise for (e.g.) speed or memory.

    It's definition of optimisation seems to be "optimise to not work".
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    And everyone in England is eligible under current rules to move to Newcastle.
    People in Scotland massing at the border waiting to be allowed to live there. Sunderland and Middlesbro also top targets.

    I've been smuggling people across the Tweed for a few months now. Sure, one or two boats have sunk along the way, but please don't worry, it's not serious: they all paid me in advance.
    It's been two months since I paid LNER to smuggle me into Edinburgh to ride the new tram extension, so extortionate! And that was BEFORE they abolished return fares.
    Return fares? Why would you ever want to leave?
    I haven't done the Wolverhampton Station tram extension yet! Do you think that's sufficient excuse for Avanti West Coast to smuggle me into the West Midlands?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,155

    Can I get some recommendations for restaurants in Henley-on-Thames please?

    Take the train to London, grab a curry, go back.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    Do we remember when Matthew Parris sampled a week on benefits after he suggested he could live on them without issue?

    After her speech today, perhaps we could ask Cruella to try living in Afghanistan. Hopefully for a lengthy experiment.

    Wasn't it David Blunkett who said he had no sympathy with asylum seekers from Afghanistan and that they should go home and rebuild their own countries?
    He can join her if he likes.
    The irony is that Starmer's government will probably be tougher on immigration and asylum than the Tories have been.
    Braverman's premise today is immigration/ asylum is an all or nothing binary choice. It is not, but it has been managed very poorly by the current Home Secretary. Perhaps Suella should pick a fight with them over their dereliction of duty.
    After the pussy cats and the big doggies, your post had me seriously wondering for a moment if I had missed a change of HS!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,673

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    So she’s saying that multiculturalism has failed but on the other hand she’s portraying herself as showing it hasn’t .
    No. She is demonstrating assimilation, not mutilculturalism.
    Not sure these are mutually exclusive. Can a person not assimilate on the essentials (eg language and law) yet maintain some of their (other) cultural identity? Surely they can. If not it implies we're an intolerant mono kind of a place. Or that we want to be. That sounds a pretty grim prospect to me. I've always taken the 'multicultural society' to be just a fact of modern life. I'm quite suspicious of the message that it's
    'failed'. When I hear this I can't help wondering what exactly is meant. What has failed? The 'experiment' of modern life?
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,035

    "This is going to be "fun".

    Developer gets permission to build two blocks of flats.

    Developer builds flats to a different design and starts selling homes in flats.

    Council issues order to demolish the blocks and rebuilding them correctly."

    https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1706647481814069378

    "The two buildings differ in both external and internal design. Councillors approved two glass-clad blocks, but instead they were given metal features and grey cladding.

    Greenwich says that other breaches include:
    * Residents have poorer quality accommodation than was promised
    * Promised roof gardens and children’s play areas have not been built
    * The footprint of the towers is bigger than was promised
    * “accessible” apartments for wheelchair users have steps to their balconies, meaning residents cannot use them
    * car parking has replaced a promised landscaped garden
    * a residents’ gym has replaced commercial floorspace"

    The developer will, I expect, go bust, leaving the flatowners with an even bigger problem. But my question is why the council did not notice these massive lapses of the planning permission much earlier; say, before anyone moved in.

    Unfortunately, with the gutting of Local Authority funding, planning enforcement departments have very limited resources. Almost universally, they won't go around checking up for matters to enforce and rely on people flagging them up, other than for large developments, where they will carry out inspections at the end of the development (which appears to be what happened here).

    Developers will be aware that they will face inspection at the end of development, but may well rely on enforcement having been all but castrated in powers to actually enforce anything. They'll fight in court, costing the LA more money and the developer will invariably have the better lawyers (at least, better-paid lawyers), and the legislation around the level of impact of enforcement curtails it a lot.

    There's not actually much between a fine that most developers would laugh off, and a requirement to return the site to its original condition - a requirement that developers usually assume the LA won't pursue, as it ends up with nothing for all the hassle (almost always a correct assumption).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,138
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    And everyone in England is eligible under current rules to move to Newcastle.
    People in Scotland massing at the border waiting to be allowed to live there. Sunderland and Middlesbro also top targets.

    I've been smuggling people across the Tweed for a few months now. Sure, one or two boats have sunk along the way, but please don't worry, it's not serious: they all paid me in advance.
    It's been two months since I paid LNER to smuggle me into Edinburgh to ride the new tram extension, so extortionate! And that was BEFORE they abolished return fares.
    Return fares? Why would you ever want to leave?
    What was the Fry/Laurie sketch where they play the WWII prisoner and camp commandant? At the end the prisoner has helped everyone else to escape and replaced them with sandbag dummies. The commandant points out his soldiers are all sandbag dummies as well.
  • Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    It's not an "estimate" at all, it's a scary figure plucked from nowhere.
    That's what an estimate is.
    Not according to my dictionary.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,673
    Farooq said:

    boulay said:

    Farooq said:

    780,000,000 refugees
    7 bins each
    5,460,000,000 bins

    BRITAIN IS FULL

    full of bins

    Fuckers doing the bin Laden joke when I was busy. You can’t leave the site for a moment without someone stealing your joke that you haven’t come up with yet.
    Bin Laden was on Great British Bake Off. He's the one who made the big apple crumble.
    Reminds of that quintessential New York novel: Binfire of the Vanities.
  • kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    So she’s saying that multiculturalism has failed but on the other hand she’s portraying herself as showing it hasn’t .
    No. She is demonstrating assimilation, not mutilculturalism.
    Not sure these are mutually exclusive. Can a person not assimilate on the essentials (eg language and law) yet maintain some of their (other) cultural identity? Surely they can. If not it implies we're an intolerant mono kind of a place. Or that we want to be. That sounds a pretty grim prospect to me. I've always taken the 'multicultural society' to be just a fact of modern life. I'm quite suspicious of the message that it's
    'failed'. When I hear this I can't help wondering what exactly is meant. What has failed? The 'experiment' of modern life?
    There's something patronising about reducing other people's cultural identity to the things that are compatible with your own. When it comes to things like patriarchal values, I'm sure you'd be for assimilation.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited September 2023
    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    So she’s saying that multiculturalism has failed but on the other hand she’s portraying herself as showing it hasn’t .
    No. She is demonstrating assimilation, not mutilculturalism.
    Not sure these are mutually exclusive. Can a person not assimilate on the essentials (eg language and law) yet maintain some of their (other) cultural identity? Surely they can. If not it implies we're an intolerant mono kind of a place. Or that we want to be. That sounds a pretty grim prospect to me. I've always taken the 'multicultural society' to be just a fact of modern life. I'm quite suspicious of the message that it's
    'failed'. When I hear this I can't help wondering what exactly is meant. What has failed? The 'experiment' of modern life?
    There's healthy assimilation, and less healthy over-compensation, sometimes among people who may have some other issues in some place of their background, identity/ and or upbringing, and personal psychology.

    From the way they conduct themselves, and their general style, I would say Priti and Suella are much more likely to have some connections with the latter group.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    And everyone in England is eligible under current rules to move to Newcastle.
    People in Scotland massing at the border waiting to be allowed to live there. Sunderland and Middlesbro also top targets.

    I've been smuggling people across the Tweed for a few months now. Sure, one or two boats have sunk along the way, but please don't worry, it's not serious: they all paid me in advance.
    It's been two months since I paid LNER to smuggle me into Edinburgh to ride the new tram extension, so extortionate! And that was BEFORE they abolished return fares.
    Return fares? Why would you ever want to leave?
    What was the Fry/Laurie sketch where they play the WWII prisoner and camp commandant? At the end the prisoner has helped everyone else to escape and replaced them with sandbag dummies. The commandant points out his soldiers are all sandbag dummies as well.
    Paul Merton's Channel 4 sketch show?

    https://youtu.be/5pA-7D07-Uw
  • Pulpstar said:

    Farooq said:

    780,000,000 refugees
    7 bins each
    5,460,000,000 bins

    BRITAIN IS FULL

    full of bins

    Bin Laden?
    7 bins for 7 brothers
    As Vince Cable once remarked, the Prime Minister has gone from Stallin' to Mr Bin.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,673

    kinabalu said:

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    And everyone in England is eligible under current rules to move to Newcastle.
    There are different pull factors involved, and if you turn up in Newcastle, they won't put you up in a 3-star hotel at taxpayers' expense.
    But otoh the trip is easier. Rather than a 3000 mile trek plus a treacherous small boat across the Med and the Channel, it's a 125 from Kings Cross.
  • Meanwhile, in "Less than meets the eye" news,

    More than half of new cars sold in the UK will
    have to be electric within five years, the government will confirm. The decision reinforces previous targets despite speculation that they might be weakened after Rishi Sunak watered down some net-zero policies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7c22b7f2-5c74-11ee-88d6-eacc4268cc5d

    Sneaky little tinker, isn't he?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    And everyone in England is eligible under current rules to move to Newcastle.
    There are different pull factors involved, and if you turn up in Newcastle, they won't put you up in a 3-star hotel at taxpayers' expense.
    But otoh the trip is easier. Rather than a 3000 mile trek plus a treacherous small boat across the Med and the Channel, it's a 125 from Kings Cross.
    Pedantic betting, and before Sunil, JJ, et al get upset: not a 125. They moved them to GWR long ago (and I think the last ran a month or so back?).
  • Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    It's not an "estimate" at all, it's a scary figure plucked from nowhere.
    That's what an estimate is.
    Not according to my dictionary.
    Obviously you've never used a builder.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    It's not an "estimate" at all, it's a scary figure plucked from nowhere.
    That's what an estimate is.
    Not according to my dictionary.
    Obviously you've never used a builder.
    Maybe it's in the Trussonomic dictionary?

    Just heard from a relative whose pension got the Truss/Kamikwazi treatment. I couldn't repeat his views even on PB as I don't want to upset you.
  • kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    So she’s saying that multiculturalism has failed but on the other hand she’s portraying herself as showing it hasn’t .
    No. She is demonstrating assimilation, not mutilculturalism.
    Not sure these are mutually exclusive. Can a person not assimilate on the essentials (eg language and law) yet maintain some of their (other) cultural identity? Surely they can. If not it implies we're an intolerant mono kind of a place. Or that we want to be. That sounds a pretty grim prospect to me. I've always taken the 'multicultural society' to be just a fact of modern life. I'm quite suspicious of the message that it's
    'failed'. When I hear this I can't help wondering what exactly is meant. What has failed? The 'experiment' of modern life?
    There's healthy assimilation, and less healthy over-compensation, sometimes among people who may have some other issues in some place of their background, identity/ and or upbringing, and personal psychology.

    From the way they conduct themselves, and their general style, I would say Priti and Suella are much more likely to have some connections with the latter group.
    That's quite a racist perspective, well done.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited September 2023

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    So she’s saying that multiculturalism has failed but on the other hand she’s portraying herself as showing it hasn’t .
    No. She is demonstrating assimilation, not mutilculturalism.
    Not sure these are mutually exclusive. Can a person not assimilate on the essentials (eg language and law) yet maintain some of their (other) cultural identity? Surely they can. If not it implies we're an intolerant mono kind of a place. Or that we want to be. That sounds a pretty grim prospect to me. I've always taken the 'multicultural society' to be just a fact of modern life. I'm quite suspicious of the message that it's
    'failed'. When I hear this I can't help wondering what exactly is meant. What has failed? The 'experiment' of modern life?
    There's healthy assimilation, and less healthy over-compensation, sometimes among people who may have some other issues in some place of their background, identity/ and or upbringing, and personal psychology.

    From the way they conduct themselves, and their general style, I would say Priti and Suella are much more likely to have some connections with the latter group.
    That's quite a racist perspective, well done.
    It really isn't. There are plenty of Asian Tories who don't have this extreme over-compensating factor. Baroness Warsi was also always one, for instance, even when she was fully on board with the Tories, and not complaining about Islamophobia in their ranks.

    Munira Mirza was another, much as I disliked her Brexit-revolutionarism.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364
    This thread is still ending north of Euston (and south of Manc, never mind Glasgow).
  • Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    It's not an "estimate" at all, it's a scary figure plucked from nowhere.
    That's what an estimate is.
    Not according to my dictionary.
    Obviously you've never used a builder.
    Isn't a builder's estimate a number plucked from the air to sound less scary?

    See Blair in 2003(?)
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,500
    .
    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    So she’s saying that multiculturalism has failed but on the other hand she’s portraying herself as showing it hasn’t .
    No. She is demonstrating assimilation, not mutilculturalism.
    Not sure these are mutually exclusive. Can a person not assimilate on the essentials (eg language and law) yet maintain some of their (other) cultural identity? Surely they can. If not it implies we're an intolerant mono kind of a place. Or that we want to be. That sounds a pretty grim prospect to me. I've always taken the 'multicultural society' to be just a fact of modern life. I'm quite suspicious of the message that it's
    'failed'. When I hear this I can't help wondering what exactly is meant. What has failed? The 'experiment' of modern life?
    More to the point, why have the Tories persisted with this "failed" model for the past 13 years (and indeed, theoretically, remain in favour)?

    It was one thing for Boris to present himself as being in opposition to his own party in the run-up to hist 2019 election as he personally had spent a year on the backbenches, from where he had opposed May's policies.

    But it's quite another for a current Secretary of State to slam her own government and her own department's current policy like this.

    Is this now to become the government's policy? If so, why wasn't parliament informed of the change? If not, will Braverman be resigning to campaign in favour of the change?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,673

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Multiculturalism has failed according to Braverman failing to see the irony of her argument given she’s from immigrant parents !

    I don't see the irony. She appears to be someone who has embraced British culture.
    So she’s saying that multiculturalism has failed but on the other hand she’s portraying herself as showing it hasn’t .
    No. She is demonstrating assimilation, not mutilculturalism.
    Not sure these are mutually exclusive. Can a person not assimilate on the essentials (eg language and law) yet maintain some of their (other) cultural identity? Surely they can. If not it implies we're an intolerant mono kind of a place. Or that we want to be. That sounds a pretty grim prospect to me. I've always taken the 'multicultural society' to be just a fact of modern life. I'm quite suspicious of the message that it's
    'failed'. When I hear this I can't help wondering what exactly is meant. What has failed? The 'experiment' of modern life?
    There's something patronising about reducing other people's cultural identity to the things that are compatible with your own. When it comes to things like patriarchal values, I'm sure you'd be for assimilation.
    I don't see anything patronising in what I said there. Patriarchal attitudes should be resisted and argued against wherever they are and whoever holds them. One of the world's top evils, imo, the oppression of women.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,968
    edited September 2023

    NEW THREAD

  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Suella Braverman says there are 780 million potential asylum seekers in the world. UN says there are 35 million. Slight difference in numbers...

    Braverman goes on about being gay. Only 1.5% of asylum seekers in the UK have put being gay as part of their claim for asylum, and that might not be their only reason.

    You're conflating different things. 35 million is the current number of refugees. Suella Braverman's figure is an estimate of the number of people who could claim under the current rules, or our current interpretation of them.
    And everyone in England is eligible under current rules to move to Newcastle.
    People in Scotland massing at the border waiting to be allowed to live there. Sunderland and Middlesbro also top targets.

    I've been smuggling people across the Tweed for a few months now. Sure, one or two boats have sunk along the way, but please don't worry, it's not serious: they all paid me in advance.
    It's been two months since I paid LNER to smuggle me into Edinburgh to ride the new tram extension, so extortionate! And that was BEFORE they abolished return fares.
    Return fares? Why would you ever want to leave?
    What was the Fry/Laurie sketch where they play the WWII prisoner and camp commandant? At the end the prisoner has helped everyone else to escape and replaced them with sandbag dummies. The commandant points out his soldiers are all sandbag dummies as well.
    I think that describes a Ripping Yarn's episode "Escape From Stalag Luft 112B"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdC2aMIXvDw
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