You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
Ukrainians are actually at war and being killed by Russians as we speak
So it's OK for everyone from Yemen and Palestine to come? Or only white ones?
Who is "Palestine" at war with? And when did that war happen?
Maybe my history books are flawed but I can't recall a state called Palestine ever being invaded by any country post-WWII.
Although the UN had intended to create a state called Palestine in 1948 but Egypt and Jordan invaded that land and prevented that state from ever being created.
I further recall Egypt and Jordan repeatedly declaring war on Israel, but those wars finished and Egypt and Jordan are both formally no longer at war with Israel anymore.
Interesting reporting by Sky News re Rwanda policy:-
The UK is leading the way with its Rwanda deportation scheme as other European countries look at "similar solutions" to tackle illegal immigration, the prime minister has said.
Rishi Sunak also said he discussed illegal immigration during a "meeting and a drink" with Italian prime minister Giorgia Meloni as world leaders attend the G20 summit in Delhi. Mr Sunak said they discussed how they can "work together" to tackle the "shared challenge" of illegal immigration in Europe.
The Conservative government wants to send tens of thousands of migrants more than 6,000 miles away from the UK to Rwanda as part of a £120m deal agreed with the east African country in 2022.Critics have claimed the policy breaks international human rights laws, and no one has been sent to the country yet after ongoing legal challenges in the courts.
Mr Sunak has said he will do "whatever is necessary" to get the removal flights going after a Court of Appeal ruling in June said the scheme is unlawful.
Speaking about the Rwanda policy to reporters in Delhi, Mr Sunak said on Saturday: "I've always said that this is a global issue, this issue of illegal migration. It is only growing in importance and will require global coordination to resolve. I have said Britain would be tough but fair, and where Britain leads others will follow. We have been willing to take bold and radical action to tackle this problem.
"I said that other countries would look at similar solutions, and you can start to see that they are with the news from Austria this week, and more broadly across Europe.
"You can just see this issue growing and growing in salience, and I think that we have been out in front leading the conversation on this and the need to look at this differently and look at radical solutions."
Mr Sunak's comments come after Austrian Chancellor Karl Nehammer raised the possibility of deporting illegal immigrants to Rwanda, where their cases for asylum cases would be processed. Gerhard Karner, Austria's interior minister, has called for the EU to introduce "asylum procedures in safe third countries" and referred to a model "Denmark and Great Britain are also following".
“I had a drink with Meloni, a fascist, and she thought it was a good idea” isn’t exactly a persuasive argument that you’ve got a good policy.
The wider issue is that EU countries are actively looking at the Rwanda policy, and not just Italy but Austria and Denmark with the subject due to be on the agenda when Italy chair the G7 next year and at the European Political Community Summit which they also host next year
No, they’re not looking at the Rwanda policy. They’re looking at processing asylum claims in third countries. That is very different.
Actually Italy Austria and Denmark are looking at Rwanda
Now I know even by quoting Sky's report would be a trigger event for some but then it is a news story whether you agree with 8t or not
They are looking at something involving Rwanda, but a different policy. You do understand the difference between processing people in Rwanda and just leaving them there, I'm sure.
That Rishi Sunak is trying to elide the two is a great shame, because he's meant to be better than that. Less dishonest.
Isn't he?
I am not arguing the details but just quoting a Sky report (also covered in other media outlets) that support for a Rwanda style policy is actively being discussed in the EU
This does raise an interesting point. If UK-based journalists don’t understand the government’s Rwanda policy, how can refugees? And if refugees don’t understand it, how can it be a deterrent?
Just woindering whether refugees - and, just as important, those who act as their travel agents - really don't understand basic arithmetic. But as we see on PB even well-informed folk don't, either. On the other hand, the refugees aren't desperate to find an excuse to vote Tory rather than Labour.
A typical migrant from West Africa that arrives in Kent has passed through the following hoops:
1) gaining the financial wherewithal to travel. 2) crossing the Sahara desert 20+ packed in a pick-up truck, dodging Islamists, robbers, The Wagner Group, predatory governments and death by dehydration. 3) Risk of robbery and enslavement in the failed state of Libya. 4) the expensive and hazardous crossing of the Med. 5) the crossing of the Channel.
They are not going to be put off by any level of beastliness that even Lee-anderthal or Braverman can come up with, short of being gassed on arrival.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
The first safe country "rule" is something of an urban myth.
The UK Government's unilateral position is that asylum seekers should claim asylum in the first safe country in which they arrive. That's understandable as that's unlikely to be a northern European island. However, that simply isn't the position under the UN convention and international law.
Asylum seekers can pass through a safe country to claim asylum in another safe country. The fact they have cannot be held against them in processing their asylum claim. Most asylum seekers don't do that in fact - by far the most common place to make an asylum claim is the first safe country of arrival, and that's reflected in the numbers. But a fair number pass through a safe country to claim asylum in another safe country - they are fully entitled to do so under international law (often for reasons of family, linguistic, or cultural ties). The fact quite a lot of people in the UK would like international law to be different on this point doesn't mean it is.
International law is a bit of a joke, you get countries ignoring the bits they don't like, or expounding theories on its power that is wildly beyond the reality. It only really matters if you face consequences, and most countries at the end of the day want to be able to handle migration according to their own whims, so it is a tricky one to resolve.
I think there's a lot of concern about phony claims for asylum, hence the suspicion where there is an imbalance in the demographics of those arriving, but restricting the ability to legimitiately claim, or pushing the issue off onto others doesn't seem the right solution to me. The retort is 'oh, so what is the solution then?', which is fair to a point, but just because it may be hard to elucidate a different solution doesn't mean pursuing a bad solution is correct.
One funny clip from a few years ago was a Trump supporter on a show talking about being in favour of migration, so long as it was legal, and then being flabbergasted when being told it was legal to claim asylym, eventually saying they hoped Trump changed that then. (This is not to say Biden is stellar on migration from the sounds of it).
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
The answer is because we invited them, and they are overwhelmingly female unlike the majority of asylum seekers who are young men.
So it's OK for brown females from Yemen and Palestine and their children to come then. Thanks for clarifying!
It's ok for us to decide on a case by case basis where the limits of our charity are. Extending an open-ended right to billions of people to come here is not sustainable.
Do you think racism is a factor in who we invite? Pretty clear to me people in the Yemen are at least as worthy cause but won't be welcomed in the same way.
We have a different stake in stabilising the Ukrainian state so it's not just about them being a worthy cause.
When did the idea take hold that the only way to deal with worthy causes is to invite people to the UK? It's a very recent way of thinking.
Excellent thread header, thanks @TheScreamingEagles. I do have sympathy for the view of @Heathener that the last election is perhaps a bit of an anomaly. That said, I also think 2017 is an anomaly too.
I think Labour will probably get over the line and they may even smash it out of the park. The one concern I have is the manifesto. I know there's the view that election campaigns don't change very much, but I feel that the support for Labour is built largely on people being fed up with the Tories.
Labour pledged to stick to Tory spending plans for the first two years after 1997. I think people had a good idea of what they'd get from Labour (more of the same but with a bit more money for schools and hospitals and less sleaze). I don't think we're in the same position now.
If we take the view that people tend to vote against something more than they vote for something, then I think that puts Labour's dilemma into place.
At the moment, the focus is all on the Government because it's the Government and it is easy to criticise it all day long given Sunak, their decision making etc.
But come an election campaign, the focus will be on what a Labour Government would offer and many may not like it. Whether that's their ludicrously transparent trans policy, or putting VAT on private schools, or a feeling that Starmer will say anything to win power. My view is the campaign will matter a lot (which is why I think the Tories may be tempted to get rid of Sunak fairly quickly).
One other thing - this is not like the run-up to 1997. Unlike then, people are not losing their homes and jobs to recession. That will make a difference.
I think you're confusing 1997 with 1992. The economy is in a far worse state now than in 1997. There is a good chance the UK economy will either be going into recession or just coming out of it at the next election, and meanwhile real incomes have barely grown in the last decade.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
The answer is because we invited them, and they are overwhelmingly female unlike the majority of asylum seekers who are young men.
So it's OK for brown females from Yemen and Palestine and their children to come then. Thanks for clarifying!
The sex of a refugee always seemed irrelevant to me. If you are a Ukranian man fleeing a war then you're just as in danger as a Yemeni woman.
The pro-Ukraine bias of some is really sickening.
"pro-Ukraine bias of some is really sickening" and you wonder why some might thing you have to put it lightly a soft spot for Russia?
You do realise don't you that Ukrainian men have been conscripted and are forbidden to leave Ukraine because they are needed to fight for and defend their homeland. Just as happened in this country the last time it was threatened with invasion.
So most refugees coming here from Ukraine are women and children, not men.
You make an excellent point as @CorrectHorseBattery shows his inner Jeremy Corbyn
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
The answer is because we invited them, and they are overwhelmingly female unlike the majority of asylum seekers who are young men.
Is the sex of somebody particularly relevant?
We are responsible for a lot of the issues in the Middle East today, they should be invited too.
We can't invite the whole world, can we?
So why are we inviting Ukranians? Let's invite nobody, works for me.
Pro-Ukraine bias. As usual.
This seems like a bit of a immature reaction. "We cannot help everyone so let's help nobody" kind of thing.
Is the choice of whom to specifically invite going to be somewhat arbitrary? Of course it is (and there was a lot of anger about not helping Afghans as much as we could have), and as williamglenn notes there is a geopolitical angle which is more relevant to the UK in Ukraine, which may be sad for Yemen, but no country on earth acts without some cold calculation about its interests.
But so long as people in need are getting helped that's better than nobody. Do you think we should give foreign aid to everyone in need, or no-one, because those who receive it is unfair on those who do not?
Fixing the dire state of how we process and treat refugees is a separate issue altogether of course.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
"pro-Ukraine bias of some is really sickening" and you wonder why some might thing you have to put it lightly a soft spot for Russia?
You do realise don't you that Ukrainian men have been conscripted and are forbidden to leave Ukraine because they are needed to fight for and defend their homeland. Just as happened in this country the last time it was threatened with invasion.
So most refugees coming here from Ukraine are women and children, not men.
FFS, in this debate, not in general. If you could point to a single thing where I've been on the side of Russia I'd like you to do so. There's not one example where I am. As I mentioned the other day, just because I am not as hawkish as others it doesn't make me pro-Russia!
If I am going to continue to be implied to somehow be on the side of Russia then I'm going to leave this board for good as it's simply not on. Please withdraw your statement that I am in any way supporting Putin and his disgusting invasion of Ukraine.
If a female refugee from Yemen came here, they have absolutely the same right to be a refugee and have safety here as somebody from Ukraine. They are both fleeing awful wars, where they come from I am afraid as far as I am concerned, is irrelevant.
To be fair your attitude to Ukranian refugees does open the door to such an accusation
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Oh for heaven's sake CorrectHorseBat, flouncing off in a Leon-esque huff because people robustly disagreed with you is unworthy of you. There's no need to go, or modulate your views, just because people interpret your words other than you would like. Just ignore it and everyone be friendly on other matters.
I mean, you literally just suggested helping no one at all rather than help Ukrainians more than others - I don't call that pro-Russian, but opinions are not exempt from criticism.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Oh for heaven's sake CorrectHorseBat, flouncing off in a Leon-esque huff because people robustly disagreed with you is unworthy of you. There's no need to go, or modulate your views, just because people interpret your words other than you would like. Just ignore it.
Exactly. Leon was pro-Russia and we can't get rid of him
This will be shown on journalism training courses for years to come on what happens when someone with no discernible news anchor ability is asked to deal with a breaking story
I suspect it won't be there for long, but Wikipedia's page on Martin Daubney currently says "He currently presents on GB News, having an absolute howler turning the announcement of the arrest of absconded prisoner Daniel Khalife into a nonsense word salad that saw him widely mocked and discredited"
Interesting reporting by Sky News re Rwanda policy:-
The UK is leading the way with its Rwanda deportation scheme as other European countries look at "similar solutions" to tackle illegal immigration, the prime minister has said.
Rishi Sunak also said he discussed illegal immigration during a "meeting and a drink" with Italian prime minister Giorgia Meloni as world leaders attend the G20 summit in Delhi. Mr Sunak said they discussed how they can "work together" to tackle the "shared challenge" of illegal immigration in Europe.
The Conservative government wants to send tens of thousands of migrants more than 6,000 miles away from the UK to Rwanda as part of a £120m deal agreed with the east African country in 2022.Critics have claimed the policy breaks international human rights laws, and no one has been sent to the country yet after ongoing legal challenges in the courts.
Mr Sunak has said he will do "whatever is necessary" to get the removal flights going after a Court of Appeal ruling in June said the scheme is unlawful.
Speaking about the Rwanda policy to reporters in Delhi, Mr Sunak said on Saturday: "I've always said that this is a global issue, this issue of illegal migration. It is only growing in importance and will require global coordination to resolve. I have said Britain would be tough but fair, and where Britain leads others will follow. We have been willing to take bold and radical action to tackle this problem.
"I said that other countries would look at similar solutions, and you can start to see that they are with the news from Austria this week, and more broadly across Europe.
"You can just see this issue growing and growing in salience, and I think that we have been out in front leading the conversation on this and the need to look at this differently and look at radical solutions."
Mr Sunak's comments come after Austrian Chancellor Karl Nehammer raised the possibility of deporting illegal immigrants to Rwanda, where their cases for asylum cases would be processed. Gerhard Karner, Austria's interior minister, has called for the EU to introduce "asylum procedures in safe third countries" and referred to a model "Denmark and Great Britain are also following".
The Sunak government announced today that it had found an island to emplace the migrant surge currently affecting Europe. Called "Britain", it has a reasonable albeit creaking infrastructure that Sunak has convinced himself can accommodate 500-1000K migrants per year for the foreseeable future. The scheme conducted with cooperation with the French will allow Europe to cope with the numbers of migrants without disruption, or at least of the places they like. As the locals are not keen on this the scheme has caused a degree of unrest, but the Sunak administration staff either have or want second homes in other countries and do not care overmuch. To deflect criticism they have created "the Rwanda scheme" as a disinformation campaign to make it appear that they are doing otherwise. The scheme will take up around 2% of the total but will distract the locals long enough to remove effective opposition.
One thing I do know is that Rwanda has 25mph limits in urban areas, so it's nearly as nice as Wales.
We should take a leaf out of the Libyan book. Welcome the migrants from sub-Saharan Africa.
Since we are being told that we can’t get cheap enough farm workers, as part of heir stay here, they can work in the fields for nothing - as in Libya. If low pay is good, no pay must be best, right?
Best of all, we can use the economic input generated to pay reparations for slavery.
Why is there no cricket being played in Southampton?
According to the BBC Weather Forecast it is sunny with a gentle breeze, and has been that way all morning. Could it be they got it wrong by some chance?
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Oh for heaven's sake CorrectHorseBat, flouncing off in a Leon-esque huff because people robustly disagreed with you is unworthy of you. There's no need to go, or modulate your views, just because people interpret your words other than you would like. Just ignore it.
Exactly. Leon was pro-Russia and we can't get rid of him
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Oh for heaven's sake CorrectHorseBat, flouncing off in a Leon-esque huff because people robustly disagreed with you is unworthy of you. There's no need to go, or modulate your views, just because people interpret your words other than you would like. Just ignore it and everyone be friendly on other matters.
I mean, you literally just suggested helping no one at all rather than help Ukrainians more than others - I don't call that pro-Russian, but opinions are not exempt from criticism.
I didn’t go off in a Leon-esque huff, I was poached by a top Saudi board in their new professional commentary league. However their pejorative attitude to artisanal, hand crafted, hard quartz sex toys was, in the end, too problematic. Some things are more important than money
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
Ukrainians are actually at war and being killed by Russians as we speak
Do you know anything about the Middle East at all? This is legitimately one of the most ignorant posts I've ever seen on this board.
Did you not see my graph? Russia is occupying 22 times as much territory as Israel is.
Russia is occupying territory from not only Ukraine, but also Moldova and Georgia, and a case can also be made for the South Kuril islands claimed by Japan.
Got nothing to do with Israel, stop making everything about Israel for goodness sake.
Yemen is currently in the middle of a war, do you agree that those refugees should be allowed to come here or do you think certain refugees are more valuable than others?
Ukraine doesn't get special treatment, their refugees aren't unique.
Of course he doesn't Sunil has pulled up the drawbridge after his family arrived.
Mind you SKS doesn't believe in equal treatment either.
My parents didn't sneak into the country uninvited. Why would legal immigrants to this country (and their descendants) support illegal immigration to this country?
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
Edit - I am also dubious about Labour winning 30 seats in Scotland. That’s over half and while they’ve closed down the SNP they’re still behind in every poll. Twenty would be more plausible, but it’s still a tough ask.
Technically yes as the word means "A Lowland Scot" and David is not a Highlander. As ever knowledge of Scotland on here is close to ZERO.
Not then, equivalent to the Cymric ‘Saesneg’ meaning ‘Saxon’? Or are Lowlanders Saxons as opposed to Highlander Gaels? Genuine question.
Carnyx far cleverer than me OKC and has answered perfectly
How do you know he's not a Highlander? There is a Highland branch of his clan.
I cannot state where he was born but living in Dundee area means at present he is not a highlander. He may clear it up and claim to be Highlander by birth to ease your troubled mind though. @DavidL
So just to be clear - according to your own definition, you're a Sassenach, and therefore according to Heathener you 'ignore or overlook what is going on up there [Scotland]?'
Heathener is barking, would not know Scotland if she tripped over her flask and fell into it.
But you were actually saying she was right on this point.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Only yesterday you were asking for the likes of Mr Ed and Stuart Dickson to return. What if they returned to find you had left ?
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Not again, you have left more times than the Leon(s)
What's the point I wonder? I vaguely read the thread but I don't know what the 'scam' here is? Attempts to obtain government support and then just running off with the money (leaving an unaware householder to pick up the pieces)?
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
Certainly one aspect is compassion fatigue to do with anything MENA:
I am in a constant state of wonderment that after (1), (2), (3), and (4), France is such a repellent and dangerous country that they still risk (5).
It's nothing to do with France being repellent. The UK has non-contributory benefits, no compulsory address registration, a vast black economy, the English language, extant communities of people from the countries that generate refugees and a completely collapsed immigration regime making the chance of apprehension and deportation remote at best.
So wonder no longer.
In order to address the issues around both authorised and unauthorised migration we do need to understand the motivations of migrants.
This is a global issue driven by migration from rural areas to the teeming slums and informal economies of these areas, particularly to low level non manufacturing jobs. The world's poor increasingly live like that.
In turn that poverty and underemployment leads to conflict with authorities, over religious political, criminal or economic issues, and often a harsh response from those authorities. That then drives migration, initially within region then further afield, particularly of young men.
Is a hand to mouth underground existence dodging authorities harder in Khartoum or in London, and which is less risky?
It isn't defeatist to look at the roots of the problem, it is the essential precursor to a functioning answer.
A number of African countries, for example, have now been independent longer than they were colonies. How long do you want to give them before you start asking how many of the problems are down to their own actions?
We won't solve the underlying problem - which is many of these countries are badly run, corrupt, mismanaged etc and that drives emigration - because the moment anyone suggests those as the underlying reasons, the call goes out that they are colonialist and racist. Far easier just to ignore the underlying issues and not put your head above the parapet.
If you want how to solve the issue - and help the people - you would argue the best solution is for the West to step in and take over the governance side.
Aren’t you always telling us how terrible and corrupt Biden is? How does that fit with your West=good governance argument? Didn’t you support Brexit, critical of the EU? Another hole in your consistency.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
Ukrainians are actually at war and being killed by Russians as we speak
So it's OK for everyone from Yemen and Palestine to come? Or only white ones?
Who is "Palestine" at war with? And when did that war happen?
Maybe my history books are flawed but I can't recall a state called Palestine ever being invaded by any country post-WWII.
Although the UN had intended to create a state called Palestine in 1948 but Egypt and Jordan invaded that land and prevented that state from ever being created.
I further recall Egypt and Jordan repeatedly declaring war on Israel, but those wars finished and Egypt and Jordan are both formally no longer at war with Israel anymore.
Sophistry. Answer the actual question. Replace “Palestine” with Syria if it will stop you being pedantic.
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
Here's the thing, though.
We used to look down on Italy and Spain as second tier Euro nations. Our comparators were Germany and France. Proper, well run nations, with a solid economic base.
Perhaps have a word with your stalker and that rag he writes for.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
The answer is because we invited them, and they are overwhelmingly female unlike the majority of asylum seekers who are young men.
So it's OK for brown females from Yemen and Palestine and their children to come then. Thanks for clarifying!
It's ok for us to decide on a case by case basis where the limits of our charity are. Extending an open-ended right to billions of people to come here is not sustainable.
Do you think racism is a factor in who we invite? Pretty clear to me people in the Yemen are at least as worthy cause but won't be welcomed in the same way.
We have a different stake in stabilising the Ukrainian state so it's not just about them being a worthy cause.
When did the idea take hold that the only way to deal with worthy causes is to invite people to the UK? It's a very recent way of thinking.
How is it a recent way of thinking? A quarter of a million Belgians came to the UK in 1914, for example.
I don't see any betting markets on this, which is a shame, as if there were I think you could have made really good money backing no while all the media were parroting that yes was almost certain.
Getting a referendum through in Australia is "one of the labours of Hercules" as Sir Robert Menzies put it over 70 years ago. There's a good reason why no referendum has passed in the past half century, and every referendum that has ever passed (which is not many) has had bipartisan support, which this proposal does not.
If this referendum goes through it will be the first time in the history of Australia a referendum has passed without bipartisan support. That is looking exceptionally unlikely now.
What's the point I wonder? I vaguely read the thread but I don't know what the 'scam' here is? Attempts to obtain government support and then just running off with the money (leaving an unaware householder to pick up the pieces)?
I wonder if they’ll all end up being billed business rates.
What's the point I wonder? I vaguely read the thread but I don't know what the 'scam' here is? Attempts to obtain government support and then just running off with the money (leaving an unaware householder to pick up the pieces)?
Either that, or apply for loans in the company’s name, or simply use the companies as individual constructs as part of a larger scheme. If you can cheaply spin up ltd companies in multiple countries like this then it’s easy to construct a rats nest of cash transfers & contracts between companies across borders to obscure cash flows. Useful if you want to avoid tax, or launder cash.
What's the point I wonder? I vaguely read the thread but I don't know what the 'scam' here is? Attempts to obtain government support and then just running off with the money (leaving an unaware householder to pick up the pieces)?
There are two points:-
1. Companies House does very few checks and verifications when new companies are registered. This makes it very quick and easy to set up companies but it also makes it very easy for fraudsters of all types and this has been criticised by many. There is a case for increasing the checks without hampering business.
2. This sort of pattern in private houses suggests a scam which can affect the householders living there, as well as others affected by those operating these companies.
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
You’d be less annoying if you just said Remainers . Not sure why you continue to drone on about Remoaners . As those who wanted to stay in the EU had to put up with 40 years of constant anti EU whining before Brexit then no we won’t stop trashing Brexit.
A few scraps of positive news are not going to change Remainers minds . Brexit remains a turd no matter how much desperate polish Leavers apply to it .
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
Certainly one aspect is compassion fatigue to do with anything MENA:
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
Always the way on here. If you want a bukkake of likes post some Ukrainian psy op (Euromaiden, etc). If you want a ban post some equally unlikely shit from RT, Sputnik, etc.
It the histrionic reaction of the Armchair Azovs and their Millenerian outriders who want to immanentise the eschaton that sets the tone.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
Ukrainians are actually at war and being killed by Russians as we speak
So it's OK for everyone from Yemen and Palestine to come? Or only white ones?
Who is "Palestine" at war with? And when did that war happen?
Maybe my history books are flawed but I can't recall a state called Palestine ever being invaded by any country post-WWII.
Although the UN had intended to create a state called Palestine in 1948 but Egypt and Jordan invaded that land and prevented that state from ever being created.
I further recall Egypt and Jordan repeatedly declaring war on Israel, but those wars finished and Egypt and Jordan are both formally no longer at war with Israel anymore.
Sophistry. Answer the actual question. Replace “Palestine” with Syria if it will stop you being pedantic.
To answer the question with Syria I will give the same answer I've given for about a decade with regards to Syria.
We should work with Turkey and the UN to ensure safe harbour for Syrian refugees and we should fly safely from Turkey some ('our share') safely and directly from Turkey who are most in need. Which will primarily be, as it is with Ukraine, women and children as most healthy young men will be fighting for their homeland.
What we should not do is turn a blind eye to the millions amassed in Turkey etc and instead have a Darwinian survival of the fittest that says "if you get here without drowning" then we will take you in, which primarily means the least in need and healthy young males are the ones who make it here while those most in need get abandoned to their fates in Turkey.
Any irregular migration of Syrians who have made deadly water crossings to get here should ideally be returned back to camps in Turkey, with Turkey's agreement, while we fly those who need it to come here instead in return. We should not be feeding people smugglers or deadly crossings as the way to get h ere.
Under 40's now below 4% of total UK wealth. Despite being nearly half the population. (Yes I know this includes children. But even so).
I'm assuming the key to that is housing wealth. Lots of over 40s with houses (even with mortgages, and smaller the higher up the age range you get) very few under that age with any property at all.
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
Stop. Fucking. Moaning
I believe that it is considered best to moan just before you stop fucking.
Interesting reporting by Sky News re Rwanda policy:-
The UK is leading the way with its Rwanda deportation scheme as other European countries look at "similar solutions" to tackle illegal immigration, the prime minister has said.
Rishi Sunak also said he discussed illegal immigration during a "meeting and a drink" with Italian prime minister Giorgia Meloni as world leaders attend the G20 summit in Delhi. Mr Sunak said they discussed how they can "work together" to tackle the "shared challenge" of illegal immigration in Europe.
The Conservative government wants to send tens of thousands of migrants more than 6,000 miles away from the UK to Rwanda as part of a £120m deal agreed with the east African country in 2022.Critics have claimed the policy breaks international human rights laws, and no one has been sent to the country yet after ongoing legal challenges in the courts.
Mr Sunak has said he will do "whatever is necessary" to get the removal flights going after a Court of Appeal ruling in June said the scheme is unlawful.
Speaking about the Rwanda policy to reporters in Delhi, Mr Sunak said on Saturday: "I've always said that this is a global issue, this issue of illegal migration. It is only growing in importance and will require global coordination to resolve. I have said Britain would be tough but fair, and where Britain leads others will follow. We have been willing to take bold and radical action to tackle this problem.
"I said that other countries would look at similar solutions, and you can start to see that they are with the news from Austria this week, and more broadly across Europe.
"You can just see this issue growing and growing in salience, and I think that we have been out in front leading the conversation on this and the need to look at this differently and look at radical solutions."
Mr Sunak's comments come after Austrian Chancellor Karl Nehammer raised the possibility of deporting illegal immigrants to Rwanda, where their cases for asylum cases would be processed. Gerhard Karner, Austria's interior minister, has called for the EU to introduce "asylum procedures in safe third countries" and referred to a model "Denmark and Great Britain are also following".
“I had a drink with Meloni, a fascist, and she thought it was a good idea” isn’t exactly a persuasive argument that you’ve got a good policy.
The wider issue is that EU countries are actively looking at the Rwanda policy, and not just Italy but Austria and Denmark with the subject due to be on the agenda when Italy chair the G7 next year and at the European Political Community Summit which they also host next year
No, they’re not looking at the Rwanda policy. They’re looking at processing asylum claims in third countries. That is very different.
Actually Italy Austria and Denmark are looking at Rwanda
Now I know even by quoting Sky's report would be a trigger event for some but then it is a news story whether you agree with 8t or not
They are looking at something involving Rwanda, but a different policy. You do understand the difference between processing people in Rwanda and just leaving them there, I'm sure.
That Rishi Sunak is trying to elide the two is a great shame, because he's meant to be better than that. Less dishonest.
Isn't he?
I am not arguing the details but just quoting a Sky report (also covered in other media outlets) that support for a Rwanda style policy is actively being discussed in the EU
This does raise an interesting point. If UK-based journalists don’t understand the government’s Rwanda policy, how can refugees? And if refugees don’t understand it, how can it be a deterrent?
Just woindering whether refugees - and, just as important, those who act as their travel agents - really don't understand basic arithmetic. But as we see on PB even well-informed folk don't, either. On the other hand, the refugees aren't desperate to find an excuse to vote Tory rather than Labour.
A typical migrant from West Africa that arrives in Kent has passed through the following hoops:
1) gaining the financial wherewithal to travel. 2) crossing the Sahara desert 20+ packed in a pick-up truck, dodging Islamists, robbers, The Wagner Group, predatory governments and death by dehydration. 3) Risk of robbery and enslavement in the failed state of Libya. 4) the expensive and hazardous crossing of the Med. 5) the crossing of the Channel.
They are not going to be put off by any level of beastliness that even Lee-anderthal or Braverman can come up with, short of being gassed on arrival.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
The answer is because we invited them, and they are overwhelmingly female unlike the majority of asylum seekers who are young men.
So it's OK for brown females from Yemen and Palestine and their children to come then. Thanks for clarifying!
It's ok for us to decide on a case by case basis where the limits of our charity are. Extending an open-ended right to billions of people to come here is not sustainable.
Do you think racism is a factor in who we invite? Pretty clear to me people in the Yemen are at least as worthy cause but won't be welcomed in the same way.
We have a different stake in stabilising the Ukrainian state so it's not just about them being a worthy cause.
When did the idea take hold that the only way to deal with worthy causes is to invite people to the UK? It's a very recent way of thinking.
How is it a recent way of thinking? A quarter of a million Belgians came to the UK in 1914, for example.
That example doesn't refute my point but rather supports it. The First World War was a global conflict but you have to cite an example of people coming from the neighbouring country whose invasion was the direct casus belli for our involvement.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Oh for heaven's sake CorrectHorseBat, flouncing off in a Leon-esque huff because people robustly disagreed with you is unworthy of you. There's no need to go, or modulate your views, just because people interpret your words other than you would like. Just ignore it and everyone be friendly on other matters.
I mean, you literally just suggested helping no one at all rather than help Ukrainians more than others - I don't call that pro-Russian, but opinions are not exempt from criticism.
I didn’t go off in a Leon-esque huff, I was poached by a top Saudi board in their new professional commentary league. However their pejorative attitude to artisanal, hand crafted, hard quartz sex toys was, in the end, too problematic. Some things are more important than money
I was so happy to see you return. I'd bet myself that you would and I hate being wrong.
What's the point I wonder? I vaguely read the thread but I don't know what the 'scam' here is? Attempts to obtain government support and then just running off with the money (leaving an unaware householder to pick up the pieces)?
There are two points:-
1. Companies House does very few checks and verifications when new companies are registered. This makes it very quick and easy to set up companies but it also makes it very easy for fraudsters of all types and this has been criticised by many. There is a case for increasing the checks without hampering business.
2. This sort of pattern in private houses suggests a scam which can affect the householders living there, as well as others affected by those operating these companies.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Oh for heaven's sake CorrectHorseBat, flouncing off in a Leon-esque huff because people robustly disagreed with you is unworthy of you. There's no need to go, or modulate your views, just because people interpret your words other than you would like. Just ignore it and everyone be friendly on other matters.
I mean, you literally just suggested helping no one at all rather than help Ukrainians more than others - I don't call that pro-Russian, but opinions are not exempt from criticism.
I didn’t go off in a Leon-esque huff, I was poached by a top Saudi board in their new professional commentary league. However their pejorative attitude to artisanal, hand crafted, hard quartz sex toys was, in the end, too problematic. Some things are more important than money
I was so happy to see you return. I'd bet myself that you would and I hate being wrong.
So just to be clear - you lost that bet?
Or did you bet your self on it? In which case it's just as well you won!
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Oh for heaven's sake CorrectHorseBat, flouncing off in a Leon-esque huff because people robustly disagreed with you is unworthy of you. There's no need to go, or modulate your views, just because people interpret your words other than you would like. Just ignore it and everyone be friendly on other matters.
I mean, you literally just suggested helping no one at all rather than help Ukrainians more than others - I don't call that pro-Russian, but opinions are not exempt from criticism.
I didn’t go off in a Leon-esque huff, I was poached by a top Saudi board in their new professional commentary league. However their pejorative attitude to artisanal, hand crafted, hard quartz sex toys was, in the end, too problematic. Some things are more important than money
I was so happy to see you return. I'd bet myself that you would and I hate being wrong.
I was disappointed by the timing of the return. It was obvious that a return would be happening, and within days, so I made a forecast by responding to the departure message by saying "see you next Tuesday".
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
Here's the thing, though.
We used to look down on Italy and Spain as second tier Euro nations. Our comparators were Germany and France. Proper, well run nations, with a solid economic base.
Perhaps have a word with your stalker and that rag he writes for.
You mean the France where law and order had broken down so badly that state visits had to be cancelled on TWO occasions this year ?
The Germany with its dependency on cheap but insecure Russian gas and cheap but polluting domestic coal ?
As for the political parties of either they're a level of dreadfulness beyond the UK.
So all countries have problems, good aspects alongside bad aspects, advantages together with disadvantages.
And the 'every other country' is overtaking the UK has been a common theme since the 1970s, probably even before then.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
Always the way on here. If you want a bukkake of likes post some Ukrainian psy op (Euromaiden, etc). If you want a ban post some equally unlikely shit from RT, Sputnik, etc.
It the histrionic reaction of the Armchair Azovs and their Millenerian outriders who want to immanentise the eschaton that sets the tone.
Since you're here, what's your opinion of Aprilias? In my quest for something automotive that's stupid and impractical I've tried to winnow out all the scams and bullshit, and Aprilias seem very good value; I can get an RSVR Factory for £3500. The equivalent Ducati, a 999R, would be 6 times the price, and while it's a rare & desirable bike I don't know if that justifies the differential.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
Enlightened self-interest, and this country’s extensive links with Eastern Europe, economic, demographic, and political, make the case for prioritising help for Ukraine, over and above help for Middle Eastern peoples.
One helps one’s neighbours more than one helps strangers.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
Certainly one aspect is compassion fatigue to do with anything MENA:
Interesting reporting by Sky News re Rwanda policy:-
The UK is leading the way with its Rwanda deportation scheme as other European countries look at "similar solutions" to tackle illegal immigration, the prime minister has said.
Rishi Sunak also said he discussed illegal immigration during a "meeting and a drink" with Italian prime minister Giorgia Meloni as world leaders attend the G20 summit in Delhi. Mr Sunak said they discussed how they can "work together" to tackle the "shared challenge" of illegal immigration in Europe.
The Conservative government wants to send tens of thousands of migrants more than 6,000 miles away from the UK to Rwanda as part of a £120m deal agreed with the east African country in 2022.Critics have claimed the policy breaks international human rights laws, and no one has been sent to the country yet after ongoing legal challenges in the courts.
Mr Sunak has said he will do "whatever is necessary" to get the removal flights going after a Court of Appeal ruling in June said the scheme is unlawful.
Speaking about the Rwanda policy to reporters in Delhi, Mr Sunak said on Saturday: "I've always said that this is a global issue, this issue of illegal migration. It is only growing in importance and will require global coordination to resolve. I have said Britain would be tough but fair, and where Britain leads others will follow. We have been willing to take bold and radical action to tackle this problem.
"I said that other countries would look at similar solutions, and you can start to see that they are with the news from Austria this week, and more broadly across Europe.
"You can just see this issue growing and growing in salience, and I think that we have been out in front leading the conversation on this and the need to look at this differently and look at radical solutions."
Mr Sunak's comments come after Austrian Chancellor Karl Nehammer raised the possibility of deporting illegal immigrants to Rwanda, where their cases for asylum cases would be processed. Gerhard Karner, Austria's interior minister, has called for the EU to introduce "asylum procedures in safe third countries" and referred to a model "Denmark and Great Britain are also following".
“I had a drink with Meloni, a fascist, and she thought it was a good idea” isn’t exactly a persuasive argument that you’ve got a good policy.
The wider issue is that EU countries are actively looking at the Rwanda policy, and not just Italy but Austria and Denmark with the subject due to be on the agenda when Italy chair the G7 next year and at the European Political Community Summit which they also host next year
No, they’re not looking at the Rwanda policy. They’re looking at processing asylum claims in third countries. That is very different.
Actually Italy Austria and Denmark are looking at Rwanda
Now I know even by quoting Sky's report would be a trigger event for some but then it is a news story whether you agree with 8t or not
They are looking at something involving Rwanda, but a different policy. You do understand the difference between processing people in Rwanda and just leaving them there, I'm sure.
That Rishi Sunak is trying to elide the two is a great shame, because he's meant to be better than that. Less dishonest.
Isn't he?
I am not arguing the details but just quoting a Sky report (also covered in other media outlets) that support for a Rwanda style policy is actively being discussed in the EU
This does raise an interesting point. If UK-based journalists don’t understand the government’s Rwanda policy, how can refugees? And if refugees don’t understand it, how can it be a deterrent?
Just woindering whether refugees - and, just as important, those who act as their travel agents - really don't understand basic arithmetic. But as we see on PB even well-informed folk don't, either. On the other hand, the refugees aren't desperate to find an excuse to vote Tory rather than Labour.
A typical migrant from West Africa that arrives in Kent has passed through the following hoops:
1) gaining the financial wherewithal to travel. 2) crossing the Sahara desert 20+ packed in a pick-up truck, dodging Islamists, robbers, The Wagner Group, predatory governments and death by dehydration. 3) Risk of robbery and enslavement in the failed state of Libya. 4) the expensive and hazardous crossing of the Med. 5) the crossing of the Channel.
They are not going to be put off by any level of beastliness that even Lee-anderthal or Braverman can come up with, short of being gassed on arrival.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why can’t they stay in the UK, a safe country?
Out of curiosity how many refugees and 'refugees' who reach Britain then travel on to another country ?
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Oh for heaven's sake CorrectHorseBat, flouncing off in a Leon-esque huff because people robustly disagreed with you is unworthy of you. There's no need to go, or modulate your views, just because people interpret your words other than you would like. Just ignore it and everyone be friendly on other matters.
I mean, you literally just suggested helping no one at all rather than help Ukrainians more than others - I don't call that pro-Russian, but opinions are not exempt from criticism.
I didn’t go off in a Leon-esque huff, I was poached by a top Saudi board in their new professional commentary league. However their pejorative attitude to artisanal, hand crafted, hard quartz sex toys was, in the end, too problematic. Some things are more important than money
I was so happy to see you return. I'd bet myself that you would and I hate being wrong.
So just to be clear - you lost that bet?
Or did you bet your self on it? In which case it's just as well you won!
Yes I'd have endured a lifetime of sex slavery in a Manilla knocking shop if the high stakes bet I'd placed with a far eastern organised crime syndicate had not come good. Thank you Leon for your entirely predictable return!
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
Here's the thing, though.
We used to look down on Italy and Spain as second tier Euro nations. Our comparators were Germany and France. Proper, well run nations, with a solid economic base.
Perhaps have a word with your stalker and that rag he writes for.
You mean the France where law and order had broken down so badly that state visits had to be cancelled on TWO occasions this year ?
The Germany with its dependency on cheap but insecure Russian gas and cheap but polluting domestic coal ?
As for the political parties of either they're a level of dreadfulness beyond the UK.
So all countries have problems, good aspects alongside bad aspects, advantages together with disadvantages.
And the 'every other country' is overtaking the UK has been a common theme since the 1970s, probably even before then.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
Enlightened self-interest, and this country’s extensive links with Eastern Europe, economic, demographic, and political, make the case for prioritising help for Ukraine, over and above help for Middle Eastern peoples.
One helps one’s neighbours more than one helps strangers.
My Canadian daughter in law is the daughter of Ukrainian immigrants
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
Ukrainians are actually at war and being killed by Russians as we speak
So it's OK for everyone from Yemen and Palestine to come? Or only white ones?
Who is "Palestine" at war with? And when did that war happen?
Maybe my history books are flawed but I can't recall a state called Palestine ever being invaded by any country post-WWII.
Although the UN had intended to create a state called Palestine in 1948 but Egypt and Jordan invaded that land and prevented that state from ever being created.
I further recall Egypt and Jordan repeatedly declaring war on Israel, but those wars finished and Egypt and Jordan are both formally no longer at war with Israel anymore.
Sophistry. Answer the actual question. Replace “Palestine” with Syria if it will stop you being pedantic.
To answer the question with Syria I will give the same answer I've given for about a decade with regards to Syria.
We should work with Turkey and the UN to ensure safe harbour for Syrian refugees and we should fly safely from Turkey some ('our share') safely and directly from Turkey who are most in need. Which will primarily be, as it is with Ukraine, women and children as most healthy young men will be fighting for their homeland.
What we should not do is turn a blind eye to the millions amassed in Turkey etc and instead have a Darwinian survival of the fittest that says "if you get here without drowning" then we will take you in, which primarily means the least in need and healthy young males are the ones who make it here while those most in need get abandoned to their fates in Turkey.
Any irregular migration of Syrians who have made deadly water crossings to get here should ideally be returned back to camps in Turkey, with Turkey's agreement, while we fly those who need it to come here instead in return. We should not be feeding people smugglers or deadly crossings as the way to get h ere.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
Oh for heaven's sake CorrectHorseBat, flouncing off in a Leon-esque huff because people robustly disagreed with you is unworthy of you. There's no need to go, or modulate your views, just because people interpret your words other than you would like. Just ignore it and everyone be friendly on other matters.
I mean, you literally just suggested helping no one at all rather than help Ukrainians more than others - I don't call that pro-Russian, but opinions are not exempt from criticism.
I didn’t go off in a Leon-esque huff, I was poached by a top Saudi board in their new professional commentary league. However their pejorative attitude to artisanal, hand crafted, hard quartz sex toys was, in the end, too problematic. Some things are more important than money
I was so happy to see you return. I'd bet myself that you would and I hate being wrong.
I was disappointed by the timing of the return. It was obvious that a return would be happening, and within days, so I made a forecast by responding to the departure message by saying "see you next Tuesday".
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
Here's the thing, though.
We used to look down on Italy and Spain as second tier Euro nations. Our comparators were Germany and France. Proper, well run nations, with a solid economic base.
Perhaps have a word with your stalker and that rag he writes for.
You mean the France where law and order had broken down so badly that state visits had to be cancelled on TWO occasions this year ?
The Germany with its dependency on cheap but insecure Russian gas and cheap but polluting domestic coal ?
As for the political parties of either they're a level of dreadfulness beyond the UK.
So all countries have problems, good aspects alongside bad aspects, advantages together with disadvantages.
And the 'every other country' is overtaking the UK has been a common theme since the 1970s, probably even before then.
I’d I remember my economic history (it’s been a long time) “every other country has been overtaking the UK” since about 1911.
Because we were so far ahead that it was inevitable others would catch up…
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
Here's the thing, though.
We used to look down on Italy and Spain as second tier Euro nations. Our comparators were Germany and France. Proper, well run nations, with a solid economic base.
Perhaps have a word with your stalker and that rag he writes for.
Er, we grew faster than Germany during the pandemic and we are growing faster than Germany now. France is doing well - relatively - amongst larger European nations. Good for them. I think macron has done pretty well, tho his voters do not seem grateful and the riotous racial divisions are a massive issue
The point is: we are not an outlier DESPITE the supposed catastrophe of Brexit. We have weathered the storm. We are not lurching to the hard right like many EU nations
We have serious problems (demography, migration, climate). So does almost every nation
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
Certainly one aspect is compassion fatigue to do with anything MENA:
Yes, I do think compassion fatigue is a factor here. It’s easy for people just to dismiss it as racism but I think there’s far more to it.
I think you've got to distinguish between the fatigued and those who never had a scintilla of compassion in the first place to get fatigued.
Only if virtue signalling is important.
Some people like to boast about their extreme position, whether that is 'let everyone in' or 'let nobody in', but real world actions depend on real world practicalities.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
Ukrainians are actually at war and being killed by Russians as we speak
So it's OK for everyone from Yemen and Palestine to come? Or only white ones?
Who is "Palestine" at war with? And when did that war happen?
Maybe my history books are flawed but I can't recall a state called Palestine ever being invaded by any country post-WWII.
Although the UN had intended to create a state called Palestine in 1948 but Egypt and Jordan invaded that land and prevented that state from ever being created.
I further recall Egypt and Jordan repeatedly declaring war on Israel, but those wars finished and Egypt and Jordan are both formally no longer at war with Israel anymore.
Sophistry. Answer the actual question. Replace “Palestine” with Syria if it will stop you being pedantic.
To answer the question with Syria I will give the same answer I've given for about a decade with regards to Syria.
We should work with Turkey and the UN to ensure safe harbour for Syrian refugees and we should fly safely from Turkey some ('our share') safely and directly from Turkey who are most in need. Which will primarily be, as it is with Ukraine, women and children as most healthy young men will be fighting for their homeland.
What we should not do is turn a blind eye to the millions amassed in Turkey etc and instead have a Darwinian survival of the fittest that says "if you get here without drowning" then we will take you in, which primarily means the least in need and healthy young males are the ones who make it here while those most in need get abandoned to their fates in Turkey.
Any irregular migration of Syrians who have made deadly water crossings to get here should ideally be returned back to camps in Turkey, with Turkey's agreement, while we fly those who need it to come here instead in return. We should not be feeding people smugglers or deadly crossings as the way to get h ere.
Great. Now why couldn’t you have said something like that in the first place rather than the pointless quibbling over Palestinian statehood?
So, to respond to your actual answer, while we don’t want to encourage people smugglers, it seems unnecessarily complicated (as well as possibly contrary to international law) to take a Syrian refugee who has arrived in the UK, fly them back to Turkey and then possibly fly them back to the UK under the scheme you’ve laid out. (We did have some similar arrangements when we were in the EU, but of course we left.) But, at a broad level, I agree with your proposal. Obviously the UK government does not.
BTW, is there any particular reason why the millions of Syrian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq are ignored?
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
Certainly one aspect is compassion fatigue to do with anything MENA:
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
Always the way on here. If you want a bukkake of likes post some Ukrainian psy op (Euromaiden, etc). If you want a ban post some equally unlikely shit from RT, Sputnik, etc.
It the histrionic reaction of the Armchair Azovs and their Millenerian outriders who want to immanentise the eschaton that sets the tone.
Since you're here, what's your opinion of Aprilias? In my quest for something automotive that's stupid and impractical I've tried to winnow out all the scams and bullshit, and Aprilias seem very good value; I can get an RSVR Factory for £3500. The equivalent Ducati, a 999R, would be 6 times the price, and while it's a rare & desirable bike I don't know if that justifies the differential.
Very good, in my opinion. I've never had one but I've ridden a V4 (never a Mille) and that thing was a great road bike. They are generally quite well screwed together as they are owned by Piaggio who certainly know how to do mass production.
Haga or Edwards rep would be where the investment potential would be. The 999R will never be worth less than you paid for, as long you don't stuff it into a dry stone wall at 110mph. I don't think I could make such an unequivocal claim for an RSV-R.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
The answer is because we invited them, and they are overwhelmingly female unlike the majority of asylum seekers who are young men.
So it's OK for brown females from Yemen and Palestine and their children to come then. Thanks for clarifying!
It's ok for us to decide on a case by case basis where the limits of our charity are. Extending an open-ended right to billions of people to come here is not sustainable.
Do you think racism is a factor in who we invite? Pretty clear to me people in the Yemen are at least as worthy cause but won't be welcomed in the same way.
We have a different stake in stabilising the Ukrainian state so it's not just about them being a worthy cause.
When did the idea take hold that the only way to deal with worthy causes is to invite people to the UK? It's a very recent way of thinking.
How is it a recent way of thinking? A quarter of a million Belgians came to the UK in 1914, for example.
That example doesn't refute my point but rather supports it. The First World War was a global conflict but you have to cite an example of people coming from the neighbouring country whose invasion was the direct casus belli for our involvement.
OK then. 50k Huguenots came here in the 17th century.
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
You’d be less annoying if you just said Remainers . Not sure why you continue to drone on about Remoaners . As those who wanted to stay in the EU had to put up with 40 years of constant anti EU whining before Brexit then no we won’t stop trashing Brexit.
A few scraps of positive news are not going to change Remainers minds . Brexit remains a turd no matter how much desperate polish Leavers apply to it .
You do understand that I TRY to be annoying, don’t you? I’ve been here a while. It’s my thing
I often succeed. This alleviates my chronic boredom, which is a real issue for me as I try to function in a world - even PB - where almost everyone has an IQ at least 30 points lower than mine, leaving me in a pit of desperate tedium. I’m like a teacher in a kindergarten who plays Stockhausen to the kids with a blank sincere face
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
Here's the thing, though.
We used to look down on Italy and Spain as second tier Euro nations. Our comparators were Germany and France. Proper, well run nations, with a solid economic base.
Perhaps have a word with your stalker and that rag he writes for.
You mean the France where law and order had broken down so badly that state visits had to be cancelled on TWO occasions this year ?
The Germany with its dependency on cheap but insecure Russian gas and cheap but polluting domestic coal ?
As for the political parties of either they're a level of dreadfulness beyond the UK.
So all countries have problems, good aspects alongside bad aspects, advantages together with disadvantages.
And the 'every other country' is overtaking the UK has been a common theme since the 1970s, probably even before then.
I’d I remember my economic history (it’s been a long time) “every other country has been overtaking the UK” since about 1911.
Because we were so far ahead that it was inevitable others would catch up…
And with relative gains it becomes increasingly harder to maintain them after the 'low hanging fruit' are picked.
For example Eastern Europe was able to make quick economic progress by teaching English not Russian, having free market economies instead of communist and by reducing spending on their militaries and political suppression.
The group from the Iman Center are waiting for their turn to join the parade:
They are a regular group in our little city's parade. I don't know much about them, though I walk by the building they use as a center regularly, but guess that they are refugees, or descended from refugees. Those who know about Islamic sects may be able to say more about them, from the dress.
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
You’d be less annoying if you just said Remainers . Not sure why you continue to drone on about Remoaners . As those who wanted to stay in the EU had to put up with 40 years of constant anti EU whining before Brexit then no we won’t stop trashing Brexit.
A few scraps of positive news are not going to change Remainers minds . Brexit remains a turd no matter how much desperate polish Leavers apply to it .
You do understand that I TRY to be annoying, don’t you? I’ve been here a while. It’s my thing
I often succeed. This alleviates my chronic boredom, which is a real issue for me as I try to function in a world - even PB - where almost everyone has an IQ at least 30 points lower than mine, leaving me in a pit of desperate tedium. I’m like a teacher in a kindergarten who plays Stockhausen to the kids with a blank sincere face
As an intellectual snob once said "think of how stupid the average person is and remember that half the people are even more stupid than that".
Thanks to one of your regulars for the clear directions for posting pics -- and my apologies for not saving their name, when I printed them out.
(I have a few more pics from the parade that I plan to share with you. I think they might give you some perspective on comments I have seen here from a frequent traveler. I was almost astounded, for example, when, in a visit to Kentucky (population about 4.5 million), he managed to miss the auto factories there, which assemble about 1.3 million cars a year, a number expected to increase as the US switches to electric cars.)
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
You’d be less annoying if you just said Remainers . Not sure why you continue to drone on about Remoaners . As those who wanted to stay in the EU had to put up with 40 years of constant anti EU whining before Brexit then no we won’t stop trashing Brexit.
A few scraps of positive news are not going to change Remainers minds . Brexit remains a turd no matter how much desperate polish Leavers apply to it .
You do understand that I TRY to be annoying, don’t you? I’ve been here a while. It’s my thing
I often succeed. This alleviates my chronic boredom, which is a real issue for me as I try to function in a world - even PB - where almost everyone has an IQ at least 30 points lower than mine, leaving me in a pit of desperate tedium. I’m like a teacher in a kindergarten who plays Stockhausen to the kids with a blank sincere face
Very funny. I do enjoy some of your posts . You do seem to veer from some great vignettes on life and people to unhinged rants about things that annoy you.
The most amazing revelation in that seminal FT article is that Ireland’s economic stats are not just bullshit (we knew that) but outrageous bullshit
By GDP per capita the Irish are wealthier than the Swiss. Yet it certainly doesn’t feel like that if you go to Ireland. More like a reasonably affluent corner of the UK - but not as rich as London, say
It turns out the feels are better than the stats. The Irish are actually poorer than the West Euro average
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why are Ukranians coming here? There are plenty of safe countries between here and Ukraine.
Why are Ukranian refugees any more refugees than people from Iraq? They aren't.
So why don't you address my question, why are Ukrainians able to come here despite the many safe countries between here and there and not Iraqis?
Your continued implication that I am somehow pro-Russia when I am obviously not is starting to seriously grate.
Enlightened self-interest, and this country’s extensive links with Eastern Europe, economic, demographic, and political, make the case for prioritising help for Ukraine, over and above help for Middle Eastern peoples.
One helps one’s neighbours more than one helps strangers.
I strongly support what this country has been doing for Ukrainian refugees. I think we could be doing more for Syrian, Iraqi, Afghan and other refugees. London to Tripoli is about the same as London to Kiev, so Libyans are as much our neighbours as Ukrainians.
Large chunks of the Middle East, from which refugees are coming, used to be part of the British Empire. That includes Iraq, Yemen and Afghanistan. Aren’t our links to those places stronger than our links to Ukraine? (My grandfather was in Libya in World War II in the Army. While Syria was a French colony, British troops fought there.) Afghans who were working withBritish forces in the country just a few years ago are stuck in Afghanistan and not able to come here.
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
You’d be less annoying if you just said Remainers . Not sure why you continue to drone on about Remoaners . As those who wanted to stay in the EU had to put up with 40 years of constant anti EU whining before Brexit then no we won’t stop trashing Brexit.
A few scraps of positive news are not going to change Remainers minds . Brexit remains a turd no matter how much desperate polish Leavers apply to it .
You do understand that I TRY to be annoying, don’t you? I’ve been here a while. It’s my thing
I often succeed. This alleviates my chronic boredom, which is a real issue for me as I try to function in a world - even PB - where almost everyone has an IQ at least 30 points lower than mine, leaving me in a pit of desperate tedium. I’m like a teacher in a kindergarten who plays Stockhausen to the kids with a blank sincere face
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
You’d be less annoying if you just said Remainers . Not sure why you continue to drone on about Remoaners . As those who wanted to stay in the EU had to put up with 40 years of constant anti EU whining before Brexit then no we won’t stop trashing Brexit.
A few scraps of positive news are not going to change Remainers minds . Brexit remains a turd no matter how much desperate polish Leavers apply to it .
You do understand that I TRY to be annoying, don’t you? I’ve been here a while. It’s my thing
I often succeed. This alleviates my chronic boredom, which is a real issue for me as I try to function in a world - even PB - where almost everyone has an IQ at least 30 points lower than mine, leaving me in a pit of desperate tedium. I’m like a teacher in a kindergarten who plays Stockhausen to the kids with a blank sincere face
As an intellectual snob once said "think of how stupid the average person is and remember that half the people are even more stupid than that".
If you meet a stupid person, then you met a stupid person.
If you meet stupid people all day, you are the stupid one.
What's the point I wonder? I vaguely read the thread but I don't know what the 'scam' here is? Attempts to obtain government support and then just running off with the money (leaving an unaware householder to pick up the pieces)?
There are two points:-
1. Companies House does very few checks and verifications when new companies are registered. This makes it very quick and easy to set up companies but it also makes it very easy for fraudsters of all types and this has been criticised by many. There is a case for increasing the checks without hampering business.
2. This sort of pattern in private houses suggests a scam which can affect the householders living there, as well as others affected by those operating these companies.
Tell me about it.
1. It's £12 to set up. No checks, nothing. If you get the Company Authentication code, you can basically do what you like. 2. If *I* received post about a new company, I'd take great delight in changing everything straight away, but for the average joe on the street, they'd either ignore it, or start the exceptionally slow process of trying to get the Company removed properly (take years).
Companies House is a chocolate fireguard. In fact, its worse than that, as the fireguard would last a few minutes. There is basically no guard at all.
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
You’d be less annoying if you just said Remainers . Not sure why you continue to drone on about Remoaners . As those who wanted to stay in the EU had to put up with 40 years of constant anti EU whining before Brexit then no we won’t stop trashing Brexit.
A few scraps of positive news are not going to change Remainers minds . Brexit remains a turd no matter how much desperate polish Leavers apply to it .
You do understand that I TRY to be annoying, don’t you? I’ve been here a while. It’s my thing
I often succeed. This alleviates my chronic boredom, which is a real issue for me as I try to function in a world - even PB - where almost everyone has an IQ at least 30 points lower than mine, leaving me in a pit of desperate tedium. I’m like a teacher in a kindergarten who plays Stockhausen to the kids with a blank sincere face
As an intellectual snob once said "think of how stupid the average person is and remember that half the people are even more stupid than that".
I often think of this, and marvel. Because it is true, of course
But then I quickly stop thinking about it as it is so alarming
Interesting reporting by Sky News re Rwanda policy:-
The UK is leading the way with its Rwanda deportation scheme as other European countries look at "similar solutions" to tackle illegal immigration, the prime minister has said.
Rishi Sunak also said he discussed illegal immigration during a "meeting and a drink" with Italian prime minister Giorgia Meloni as world leaders attend the G20 summit in Delhi. Mr Sunak said they discussed how they can "work together" to tackle the "shared challenge" of illegal immigration in Europe.
The Conservative government wants to send tens of thousands of migrants more than 6,000 miles away from the UK to Rwanda as part of a £120m deal agreed with the east African country in 2022.Critics have claimed the policy breaks international human rights laws, and no one has been sent to the country yet after ongoing legal challenges in the courts.
Mr Sunak has said he will do "whatever is necessary" to get the removal flights going after a Court of Appeal ruling in June said the scheme is unlawful.
Speaking about the Rwanda policy to reporters in Delhi, Mr Sunak said on Saturday: "I've always said that this is a global issue, this issue of illegal migration. It is only growing in importance and will require global coordination to resolve. I have said Britain would be tough but fair, and where Britain leads others will follow. We have been willing to take bold and radical action to tackle this problem.
"I said that other countries would look at similar solutions, and you can start to see that they are with the news from Austria this week, and more broadly across Europe.
"You can just see this issue growing and growing in salience, and I think that we have been out in front leading the conversation on this and the need to look at this differently and look at radical solutions."
Mr Sunak's comments come after Austrian Chancellor Karl Nehammer raised the possibility of deporting illegal immigrants to Rwanda, where their cases for asylum cases would be processed. Gerhard Karner, Austria's interior minister, has called for the EU to introduce "asylum procedures in safe third countries" and referred to a model "Denmark and Great Britain are also following".
“I had a drink with Meloni, a fascist, and she thought it was a good idea” isn’t exactly a persuasive argument that you’ve got a good policy.
The wider issue is that EU countries are actively looking at the Rwanda policy, and not just Italy but Austria and Denmark with the subject due to be on the agenda when Italy chair the G7 next year and at the European Political Community Summit which they also host next year
No, they’re not looking at the Rwanda policy. They’re looking at processing asylum claims in third countries. That is very different.
Actually Italy Austria and Denmark are looking at Rwanda
Now I know even by quoting Sky's report would be a trigger event for some but then it is a news story whether you agree with 8t or not
They are looking at something involving Rwanda, but a different policy. You do understand the difference between processing people in Rwanda and just leaving them there, I'm sure.
That Rishi Sunak is trying to elide the two is a great shame, because he's meant to be better than that. Less dishonest.
Isn't he?
I am not arguing the details but just quoting a Sky report (also covered in other media outlets) that support for a Rwanda style policy is actively being discussed in the EU
This does raise an interesting point. If UK-based journalists don’t understand the government’s Rwanda policy, how can refugees? And if refugees don’t understand it, how can it be a deterrent?
Just woindering whether refugees - and, just as important, those who act as their travel agents - really don't understand basic arithmetic. But as we see on PB even well-informed folk don't, either. On the other hand, the refugees aren't desperate to find an excuse to vote Tory rather than Labour.
A typical migrant from West Africa that arrives in Kent has passed through the following hoops:
1) gaining the financial wherewithal to travel. 2) crossing the Sahara desert 20+ packed in a pick-up truck, dodging Islamists, robbers, The Wagner Group, predatory governments and death by dehydration. 3) Risk of robbery and enslavement in the failed state of Libya. 4) the expensive and hazardous crossing of the Med. 5) the crossing of the Channel.
They are not going to be put off by any level of beastliness that even Lee-anderthal or Braverman can come up with, short of being gassed on arrival.
You need to explain why they can't stay in France, a safe country.
Why can’t they stay in the UK, a safe country?
Out of curiosity how many refugees and 'refugees' who reach Britain then travel on to another country ?
So my prediction of Argentina comfortably beating England did not turn out - England were poor as expected but Argentina were surprisingly worse...
George Ford spared Englands blushes but note - another red card and another tryless performance. The top seeds wont be losing any sleep after watching that...
I’ll bite, England were poor? On what planet are you watching from? Argentina are a decent side and played with a man advantage for over 65 minutes. Englands defence was superb. England clinically took points, and gave few penalties, something they have struggled with for years. No, the didn’t play free flowing, rugby, but they did the job.
Are they going to win the WC? Hell no, but they were not poor last night.
Biogotry, pure and simple, to suggest otherwise.
I will give credit where it is due - England did play a tight controlled game after the red card - and kept the scoreboard ticking over. But they never looked close to scoring any tries.... Argentina played very poorly and when England come up against a stronger team you will take a beating.
What's the point I wonder? I vaguely read the thread but I don't know what the 'scam' here is? Attempts to obtain government support and then just running off with the money (leaving an unaware householder to pick up the pieces)?
There are two points:-
1. Companies House does very few checks and verifications when new companies are registered. This makes it very quick and easy to set up companies but it also makes it very easy for fraudsters of all types and this has been criticised by many. There is a case for increasing the checks without hampering business.
2. This sort of pattern in private houses suggests a scam which can affect the householders living there, as well as others affected by those operating these companies.
Tell me about it.
1. It's £12 to set up. No checks, nothing. If you get the Company Authentication code, you can basically do what you like. 2. If *I* received post about a new company, I'd take great delight in changing everything straight away, but for the average joe on the street, they'd either ignore it, or start the exceptionally slow process of trying to get the Company removed properly (take years).
Companies House is a chocolate fireguard. In fact, its worse than that, as the fireguard would last a few minutes. There is basically no guard at all.
Jobsworthism. It’s not in the remit of Companies House to do checks, therefore they don’t.
Perhaps they need a team meeting to work out what they do?
Under 40's now below 4% of total UK wealth. Despite being nearly half the population. (Yes I know this includes children. But even so).
I'm assuming the key to that is housing wealth. Lots of over 40s with houses (even with mortgages, and smaller the higher up the age range you get) very few under that age with any property at all.
And the housing is owned by the elderly but rented by the young, hence it funnels the proceeds of the labour of the latter, after tax and NI, up towards the former, who don't pay NI
Better than Trump's US, Bolsonaro's Brazil... Not the countries we like to compare ourselves to, are they?
We grew faster than Germany and Spain throughout the pandemic, we had fewer deaths than Italy (and about the same as Spain)
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
You’d be less annoying if you just said Remainers . Not sure why you continue to drone on about Remoaners . As those who wanted to stay in the EU had to put up with 40 years of constant anti EU whining before Brexit then no we won’t stop trashing Brexit.
A few scraps of positive news are not going to change Remainers minds . Brexit remains a turd no matter how much desperate polish Leavers apply to it .
You do understand that I TRY to be annoying, don’t you? I’ve been here a while. It’s my thing
I often succeed. This alleviates my chronic boredom, which is a real issue for me as I try to function in a world - even PB - where almost everyone has an IQ at least 30 points lower than mine, leaving me in a pit of desperate tedium. I’m like a teacher in a kindergarten who plays Stockhausen to the kids with a blank sincere face
Leon, sweetheart. My bullshit detector will smash your IQ into kingdom come.
You remind me of the new collie in the family: fantastic at being a collie, indeed a supremely intelligent collie, but still - a collie, breaks things without meaning to, viewed with weary disdain by many (cats), desperate to be the centre of attention, often successful. But loved by some - and tolerated by many others - because he can be engaging often enough to outweigh the times when he is being a bloody nuisance.
And if this is me teasing you - well, you're right.
If people are going to advocate that I am somehow pro-Russia in every post in an effort to shut me down I am going to leave this board for good. I wish you all the best but I simply won't come in a place where any proposal is met with "you're just spinning for Russia".
Goodbye and best wishes.
If you don't want to be accused of having a pro-Russia bias, then don't have a pro-Russia bias.
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
I really don’t think he has a pro Russian bias. Far from it.
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
Certainly one aspect is compassion fatigue to do with anything MENA:
Comments
Maybe my history books are flawed but I can't recall a state called Palestine ever being invaded by any country post-WWII.
Although the UN had intended to create a state called Palestine in 1948 but Egypt and Jordan invaded that land and prevented that state from ever being created.
I further recall Egypt and Jordan repeatedly declaring war on Israel, but those wars finished and Egypt and Jordan are both formally no longer at war with Israel anymore.
I think there's a lot of concern about phony claims for asylum, hence the suspicion where there is an imbalance in the demographics of those arriving, but restricting the ability to legimitiately claim, or pushing the issue off onto others doesn't seem the right solution to me. The retort is 'oh, so what is the solution then?', which is fair to a point, but just because it may be hard to elucidate a different solution doesn't mean pursuing a bad solution is correct.
One funny clip from a few years ago was a Trump supporter on a show talking about being in favour of migration, so long as it was legal, and then being flabbergasted when being told it was legal to claim asylym, eventually saying they hoped Trump changed that then. (This is not to say Biden is stellar on migration from the sounds of it).
When did the idea take hold that the only way to deal with worthy causes is to invite people to the UK? It's a very recent way of thinking.
Is the choice of whom to specifically invite going to be somewhat arbitrary? Of course it is (and there was a lot of anger about not helping Afghans as much as we could have), and as williamglenn notes there is a geopolitical angle which is more relevant to the UK in Ukraine, which may be sad for Yemen, but no country on earth acts without some cold calculation about its interests.
But so long as people in need are getting helped that's better than nobody. Do you think we should give foreign aid to everyone in need, or no-one, because those who receive it is unfair on those who do not?
Fixing the dire state of how we process and treat refugees is a separate issue altogether of course.
Goodbye and best wishes.
I mean, you literally just suggested helping no one at all rather than help Ukrainians more than others - I don't call that pro-Russian, but opinions are not exempt from criticism.
Now finished. The sky clearing. And the air cool.
Since we are being told that we can’t get cheap enough farm workers, as part of heir stay here, they can work in the fields for nothing - as in Libya. If low pay is good, no pay must be best, right?
Best of all, we can use the economic input generated to pay reparations for slavery.
If the future is Starmer then that could work as branding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDe60CbIagg
As we say in North East London.
These are indeed our peer countries
That whole article by J B Murdoch on the FT is notable (and brave from the Remoaner FT). Much of the Britain-is-fucked Remoaner narrative is, it turns out, based on false statistics - which have had real negative effects as investors turn away from a country they perceive as doing particularly badly (when we are not)
Remoaners are literally talking the country down, with lies. It’s time for them to stop
Helping Ukrainians is not "sickening".
You may wish to say that not helping others is sickening, but there is nothing sickening about helping Ukrainians.
(Yes I know this includes children. But even so).
I read his posts as why do we help Ukrainians but not others. It’s a fair point. He’s not made the point greatly but he’s also being trolled and baited.
All in all a pretty poor show all round on pb.com
https://x.com/abcnews/status/1700651698614915077
Attempts to obtain government support and then just running off with the money (leaving an unaware householder to pick up the pieces)?
Palestinian refugees
Lebanese refugees
Algerian refugees
Libyan refugees
Kurdish refugees
Sudanese refugees
Somali refugees
Syrian refugees
Iraqi refugees
Afghan refugees
Yemeni refugees
We used to look down on Italy and Spain as second tier Euro nations. Our comparators were Germany and France. Proper, well run nations, with a solid economic base.
Perhaps have a word with your stalker and that rag he writes for.
Getting a referendum through in Australia is "one of the labours of Hercules" as Sir Robert Menzies put it over 70 years ago. There's a good reason why no referendum has passed in the past half century, and every referendum that has ever passed (which is not many) has had bipartisan support, which this proposal does not.
If this referendum goes through it will be the first time in the history of Australia a referendum has passed without bipartisan support. That is looking exceptionally unlikely now.
1. Companies House does very few checks and verifications when new companies are registered. This makes it very quick and easy to set up companies but it also makes it very easy for fraudsters of all types and this has been criticised by many. There is a case for increasing the checks without hampering business.
2. This sort of pattern in private houses suggests a scam which can affect the householders living there, as well as others affected by those operating these companies.
A few scraps of positive news are not going to change Remainers minds . Brexit remains a turd no matter how much desperate
polish Leavers apply to it .
It the histrionic reaction of the Armchair Azovs and their Millenerian outriders who want to immanentise the eschaton that sets the tone.
We should work with Turkey and the UN to ensure safe harbour for Syrian refugees and we should fly safely from Turkey some ('our share') safely and directly from Turkey who are most in need. Which will primarily be, as it is with Ukraine, women and children as most healthy young men will be fighting for their homeland.
What we should not do is turn a blind eye to the millions amassed in Turkey etc and instead have a Darwinian survival of the fittest that says "if you get here without drowning" then we will take you in, which primarily means the least in need and healthy young males are the ones who make it here while those most in need get abandoned to their fates in Turkey.
Any irregular migration of Syrians who have made deadly water crossings to get here should ideally be returned back to camps in Turkey, with Turkey's agreement, while we fly those who need it to come here instead in return. We should not be feeding people smugglers or deadly crossings as the way to get h ere.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54204053
Or did you bet your self on it? In which case it's just as well you won!
He returned about 11pm on Monday IIRC.
So close, yet so far away.
The Germany with its dependency on cheap but insecure Russian gas and cheap but polluting domestic coal ?
As for the political parties of either they're a level of dreadfulness beyond the UK.
So all countries have problems, good aspects alongside bad aspects, advantages together with disadvantages.
And the 'every other country' is overtaking the UK has been a common theme since the 1970s, probably even before then.
What with Greenwood and falling out with Sancho the club is in a really poor place
One helps one’s neighbours more than one helps strangers.
Because we were so far ahead that it was inevitable others would catch up…
The point is: we are not an outlier DESPITE the supposed catastrophe of Brexit. We have weathered the storm. We are not lurching to the hard right like many EU nations
We have serious problems (demography, migration, climate). So does almost every nation
Some people like to boast about their extreme position, whether that is 'let everyone in' or 'let nobody in', but real world actions depend on real world practicalities.
Perun 20230910: "How Incentives & Interests Shape Armies - Competition, Consolidation & Procurement Policy", 60 minutes. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XxySdqU1Xg
So, to respond to your actual answer, while we don’t want to encourage people smugglers, it seems unnecessarily complicated (as well as possibly contrary to international law) to take a Syrian refugee who has arrived in the UK, fly them back to Turkey and then possibly fly them back to the UK under the scheme you’ve laid out. (We did have some similar arrangements when we were in the EU, but of course we left.) But, at a broad level, I agree with your proposal. Obviously the UK government does not.
BTW, is there any particular reason why the millions of Syrian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq are ignored?
Haga or Edwards rep would be where the investment potential would be. The 999R will never be worth less than you paid for, as long you don't stuff it into a dry stone wall at 110mph. I don't think I could make such an unequivocal claim for an RSV-R.
Good video on the RSV-R here by Chris from 44Teeth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAIbW4vhGQA
There are loads of fake 'Factory' RSV-Rs out there so do your homework and be skeptical.
I often succeed. This alleviates my chronic boredom, which is a real issue for me as I try to function in a world - even PB - where almost everyone has an IQ at least 30 points lower than mine, leaving me in a pit of desperate tedium. I’m like a teacher in a kindergarten who plays Stockhausen to the kids with a blank sincere face
For example Eastern Europe was able to make quick economic progress by teaching English not Russian, having free market economies instead of communist and by reducing spending on their militaries and political suppression.
The group from the Iman Center are waiting for their turn to join the parade:
They are a regular group in our little city's parade. I don't know much about them, though I walk by the building they use as a center regularly, but guess that they are refugees, or descended from refugees. Those who know about Islamic sects may be able to say more about them, from the dress.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkland,_Washington
Some of you may need reassurance that, in recent years, there is no mention of a certain king of yours in these parades.
(I have a few more pics from the parade that I plan to share with you. I think they might give you some perspective on comments I have seen here from a frequent traveler. I was almost astounded, for example, when, in a visit to Kentucky (population about 4.5 million), he managed to miss the auto factories there, which assemble about 1.3 million cars a year, a number expected to increase as the US switches to electric cars.)
By GDP per capita the Irish are wealthier than the Swiss. Yet it certainly doesn’t feel like that if you go to Ireland. More like a reasonably affluent corner of the UK - but not as rich as London, say
It turns out the feels are better than the stats. The Irish are actually poorer than the West Euro average
Large chunks of the Middle East, from which refugees are coming, used to be part of the British Empire. That includes Iraq, Yemen and Afghanistan. Aren’t our links to those places stronger than our links to Ukraine? (My grandfather was in Libya in World War II in the Army. While Syria was a French colony, British troops fought there.) Afghans who were working withBritish forces in the country just a few years ago are stuck in Afghanistan and not able to come here.
If you meet stupid people all day, you are the stupid one.
1. It's £12 to set up. No checks, nothing. If you get the Company Authentication code, you can basically do what you like.
2. If *I* received post about a new company, I'd take great delight in changing everything straight away, but for the average joe on the street, they'd either ignore it, or start the exceptionally slow process of trying to get the Company removed properly (take years).
Companies House is a chocolate fireguard. In fact, its worse than that, as the fireguard would last a few minutes. There is basically no guard at all.
But then I quickly stop thinking about it as it is so alarming
Perhaps they need a team meeting to work out what they do?
You remind me of the new collie in the family: fantastic at being a collie, indeed a supremely intelligent collie, but still - a collie, breaks things without meaning to, viewed with weary disdain by many (cats), desperate to be the centre of attention, often successful. But loved by some - and tolerated by many others - because he can be engaging often enough to outweigh the times when he is being a bloody nuisance.
And if this is me teasing you - well, you're right.