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Is the CON “Lab Eco Mob” strategy going to resonate? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,216
edited August 2023 in General
Is the CON “Lab Eco Mob” strategy going to resonate? – politicalbetting.com

Labour challenged over Mid Bedfordshire candidate's zombie protest for 'eco mob' Greenpeace https://t.co/RzCJ5tgZ0J

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Maybe it'll help ensure a clear Lib Dem win in Mid Beds.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    No. Economy.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited August 2023
    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    By Greenpeace, probably not these days. By the new groups of activists who have been disrupting events, and are threatening to stop every Premier League football match, rather more so.
  • The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    By Greenpeace, probably not these days. By the new groups of activists who have been disrupting events, and are threatening to stop every Premier League football match, rather more so.
    Quite.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Interesting development in Ukraine. Ukraine have crossed the Dnipro near Kherson. This is a sector where Russia had moved forces away from to reinforce other areas.

    LASH TRAFFIC / KHERSON /1600 UTC 8 AUG / UKR has launched a surprise crossing of the Dnipro in the vicinity of Kozachi Laheri. It has been confirmed that a significant UKR force has effected a lodgment approximately 800 meters deep N of the village.
    https://twitter.com/ChuckPfarrer/status/1688941957744082945
  • DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    The French were bothered, during the 1980s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    The main focus of the electorate continues to be on:

    Inflation
    Inflation and...
    Inflation
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    When OGH said 'Mid Beds zombie candidate,' I thought he meant Her Nadyship.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited August 2023
    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

  • If the Tories start campaigning to reopen the pits and bring back leaded petrol, they will win.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    A little. But it's not hard for Keir to separate himself in the public I from the 'mob'. No one thinks he's a radical, even if he was
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    The French were bothered, during the 1980s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
    Greenpeace are the old fogeys of the green ecosystem, the cool kids are elsewhere. Probably why they've tried sine attention grabbing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    edited August 2023

    The main focus of the electorate continues to be on:

    Inflation
    Inflation and...
    Inflation

    Following the Saudi summit on Ukraine at the weekend, everyone should be lobbying OPEC to start pumping oil and starve Putin of dollars. (With the nice side-effect of reducing Western inflation).

    The Saudis are pissed off at Russia, for not cutting production as agreed in the recent past, and for now using Ukranian food exports as a weapon against the Middle East.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4499457/#Comment_4499457
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited August 2023

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    The French were bothered, during the 1980s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
    French Government was bothered; not much evidence that French people were bothered.
  • PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,994
    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    I am quite green in my way and I cant stand greenpeace they are a huge pile of the word we cant say
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    The ‘80s music videos were the best, as the producers tried to tell a story, mostly with a limited budget in what was a new medium.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    I am quite green in my way and I cant stand greenpeace they are a huge pile of the word we cant say
    I went off them when they openly lied about the Brent Spar.

    "Greenpeace admitted that its claims that the Spar contained 5500 tonnes of oil were inaccurate and apologized to Shell on 5 September. This preempted the publication of DNV's report, which endorsed Shell's initial estimates for many pollutants."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Spar
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,156
    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    The French were bothered, during the 1980s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
    Greenpeace are the old fogeys of the green ecosystem, the cool kids are elsewhere.
    Mmm, and I think that if you try to say "this lot are beyond the pale, menaces to society" about Greenpeace a lot of people will react with "what, Greenpeace? don't be daft". You could probably get that line of attack across against Extinction Rebellion, but I think Greenpeace is just too familiar and old a name.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910
    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Funny, we shared that video on another PB thread a few days ago, about the appeal of the big city.

    One of the best pop videos because it’s so classically British kitchen sink drama.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Sandpit said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
    When I was working, I'd always try to leave any email for at least five minutes as a draft before sending, and check over it. Preferably overnight, if I could.

    I fear too many people treat emails as if it is an Internet chat, or PB...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,936
    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,922

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    The "Demolition for Safety Reasons" looks weak - especially since access for fire engines was blocked, while a JCB happened to be conveniently on site.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    TimS said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Funny, we shared that video on another PB thread a few days ago, about the appeal of the big city.

    One of the best pop videos because it’s so classically British kitchen sink drama.
    Not funny, as that's almost certainly where I got it from. :) And it's a great video,
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,936

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    If it can be confirmed it was an accident not arson maybe, there needs to be a full police investigation first, which Sir Gavin to his credit is pushing for
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    The "Demolition for Safety Reasons" looks weak - especially since access for fire engines was blocked, while a JCB happened to be conveniently on site.
    I made that argument on a previous thread, and whilst I stand by the fact these structures often need to be demolished, it was not the full case here.

    (In fact, if I remember the newspaper report correctly, they were told to demolish *parts* of the structure that were dangerous, They went ahead and demolished all of it. And that screams 'guilty' to me.)
  • MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    The "Demolition for Safety Reasons" looks weak - especially since access for fire engines was blocked, while a JCB happened to be conveniently on site.
    "We had to destroy the pub to save it!"
  • HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Crooked Keir :lol:
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited August 2023
    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    After a decade of naively giving it everything it wanted (deregulation, defunding local government, a permissive planning system) the trend in this field has been lots of new legislation on to the development industry, largely in reaction to Grenfell, and stopping all new development in constituencies it hopes to win. A few weeks ago Gove refused planning consent for the demolition of M and S on Oxford Street - a building that had been turned down for listing twice.

    I wouldn't be suprised if the next thing he comes out with is a 'grade 3 listing', as loobied for by some architects - essentially requiring that buildings with some architectural value and merit cannot be demolished.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025

    Sandpit said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
    When I was working, I'd always try to leave any email for at least five minutes as a draft before sending, and check over it. Preferably overnight, if I could.

    I fear too many people treat emails as if it is an Internet chat, or PB...
    Absolutely, always better to sit on something, and see nothing more than an annoying typo on the sent version.

    No-one should be using email for FOI request responses though, it should go through a CRM system with multiple checks and signoffs along the way.

    This particular case is such an egregious breach of security, that it could result in millions of pounds of costs in giving people new identities and relocating them for security reasons. No way should any employee outside the HR department, have access to a full staff list.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Miklosvar said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
    I do think, thanks. I might take the same data and come to a different conclusion; that does not mean I am not *thinking*. Or 'signalling' for that matter.

    And if you really want to rewarm this discussion (why?) I'd ask you to send me a link to the gent's comments, as I did on the previous thread. Or I might think you are trolling.
  • Attempt to gain political traction by labeling the likes of GREENPEACE as "radical eco warriors" amply demonstrates the degree of desperation AND delusion currently gripping the bottom feeders who are manufacturing & megaphoning what passes for strategy, in what passes for the Conservative Party in 2023.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    Except that’s not remotely what happened. Which is why this story is the lead UK story in the Guardian and is the third headline in The Times

    It is resonating
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,714
    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    Yes, if Sir Keir is shrewd he will portray this as the latest manifestation of a growing theme: starting with Boris, the attitude that history, tradition, law, honesty, process and neighbourliness amount to nothing if they get in the way of crass self-enrichment. His aides need to get Sir Keir on site, frowningly picking his way through the rubble, as Rishi buggers around in his LA penthouse, forthwith.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
    When I was working, I'd always try to leave any email for at least five minutes as a draft before sending, and check over it. Preferably overnight, if I could.

    I fear too many people treat emails as if it is an Internet chat, or PB...
    Absolutely, always better to sit on something, and see nothing more than an annoying typo on the sent version.

    No-one should be using email for FOI request responses though, it should go through a CRM system with multiple checks and signoffs along the way.

    This particular case is such an egregious breach of security, that it could result in millions of pounds of costs in giving people new identities and relocating them for security reasons. No way should any employee outside the HR department, have access to a full staff list.
    At Company Y, someone in HR sent out a spreadsheet with everyone's salary on it, company-wide. A minute or so later they sent an Outlook recall request. Except a load of us were using SMTP/POP3, and recalls did not work on us ...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Perhaps just because I work in IT and security stuff, but I still don’t understand why the main political parties seem to be totally unable to vet MP candidates for online history.

    As a side note, a 35-year-old at the next election, will have likely had an iPhone and a Facebook account since they were 18. Definitely nothing to be dug up there…
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    pm215 said:

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    The French were bothered, during the 1980s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
    Greenpeace are the old fogeys of the green ecosystem, the cool kids are elsewhere.
    Mmm, and I think that if you try to say "this lot are beyond the pale, menaces to society" about Greenpeace a lot of people will react with "what, Greenpeace? don't be daft". You could probably get that line of attack across against Extinction Rebellion, but I think Greenpeace is just too familiar and old a name.
    That's part of why they are the old fogeys of the green movement - they are the comfortable, establishment side of it to the real radicals. Probably seen as busy hobnobbing with powerful people too much or some such stuff.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Indeed he should take a lead out of the conservatives’ book - they expertly vet their candidates to ensure none of them have radical rightwing backgrounds or problematic opinions, of course.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,300
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    After a decade of naively giving it everything it wanted (deregulation, defunding local government, a permissive planning system) the trend in this field has been lots of new legislation on to the development industry, largely in reaction to Grenfell, and stopping all new development in constituencies it hopes to win. A few weeks ago Gove refused planning consent for the demolition of M and S on Oxford Street - a building that had been turned down for listing twice.

    I wouldn't be suprised if the next thing he comes out with is a 'grade 3 listing', as loobied for by some architects - essentially requiring that buildings with some architectural value and merit cannot be demolished.
    We should perhaps have inverse grading system as well so that there is a presumption of allowing for the demolition of buildings with no architectural merit.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483

    On the whole, I think that "Tories attack Alistair Strathern, your Labour candidate" will be grist to his mill - more evidence that he's the one they see as the main threat.

    Thanks for the replies to my slightly grouchy post on the last thread (and the 15 likes) - I take the point that there's not much happening in UK politics at the moment. Should warm up in a couple of months with the party conferences...

    The problem is everything is politics, and politics affects most things. The demolition of a wonky pub in the Midlands ?none? of us had been to should matter much less than (say) pub licensing laws. But it's emotive, and causes discussion. In the absence of political news, it's what we have to go on - aside from rehashing the latest polls.

    Things were much more exciting in the days of ?Yougov's? nightly polls...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    kle4 said:

    pm215 said:

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    The French were bothered, during the 1980s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
    Greenpeace are the old fogeys of the green ecosystem, the cool kids are elsewhere.
    Mmm, and I think that if you try to say "this lot are beyond the pale, menaces to society" about Greenpeace a lot of people will react with "what, Greenpeace? don't be daft". You could probably get that line of attack across against Extinction Rebellion, but I think Greenpeace is just too familiar and old a name.
    That's part of why they are the old fogeys of the green movement - they are the comfortable, establishment side of it to the real radicals. Probably seen as busy hobnobbing with powerful people too much or some such stuff.
    Exposed! Sir Keir Starmer’s shadowy links with woke National Trust and RSPB. Insiders claim he may even have been present at RNLI gathering in 1990s.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Idiocy - far more effective than hacking, a lot of the time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    kle4 said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Idiocy - far more effective than hacking, a lot of the time.
    It’s an internal problem, at least as often as it’s an external problem.
  • TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Indeed he should take a lead out of the conservatives’ book - they expertly vet their candidates to ensure none of them have radical rightwing backgrounds or problematic opinions, of course.
    Erm...

    Ed Green, suspended by the Conservative Party ahead of Havering Council's Upminster by-election, has defended a Facebook post mocking Greta Thunberg.

    https://twitter.com/RomfordRecorder/status/1688898741250711552

    The summary really doesn't do the story justice.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,936
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Indeed he should take a lead out of the conservatives’ book - they expertly vet their candidates to ensure none of them have radical rightwing backgrounds or problematic opinions, of course.
    CCHQ do
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    pm215 said:

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    The French were bothered, during the 1980s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
    Greenpeace are the old fogeys of the green ecosystem, the cool kids are elsewhere.
    Mmm, and I think that if you try to say "this lot are beyond the pale, menaces to society" about Greenpeace a lot of people will react with "what, Greenpeace? don't be daft". You could probably get that line of attack across against Extinction Rebellion, but I think Greenpeace is just too familiar and old a name.
    That's part of why they are the old fogeys of the green movement - they are the comfortable, establishment side of it to the real radicals. Probably seen as busy hobnobbing with powerful people too much or some such stuff.
    Exposed! Sir Keir Starmer’s shadowy links with woke National Trust and RSPB. Insiders claim he may even have been present at RNLI gathering in 1990s.
    Disgraceful stuff indeed.

    Not as trendy though.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Miklosvar said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
    I do think, thanks. I might take the same data and come to a different conclusion; that does not mean I am not *thinking*. Or 'signalling' for that matter.

    And if you really want to rewarm this discussion (why?) I'd ask you to send me a link to the gent's comments, as I did on the previous thread. Or I might think you are trolling.
    No, you don't. You pick the bandwagon with the prettiest banner.
    https://twitter.com/PhilipHensher/status/1688885747275763712

    [SO else]An object lesson in bringing queer history into disrepute.

    Hensher: Exactly

    Also Hensher

    I increasingly think the drive to queer things has absolutely nothing to do with gay sex, and in many proponents’ case they are rather repulsed by it.

    Which I think, if you substitute trans for queer and gay, nails you exactly. Neither the queer nor the trans were put on this earth to furnish a hobby for amiable old straight buffers like you.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    On the whole, I think that "Tories attack Alistair Strathern, your Labour candidate" will be grist to his mill - more evidence that he's the one they see as the main threat.

    Thanks for the replies to my slightly grouchy post on the last thread (and the 15 likes) - I take the point that there's not much happening in UK politics at the moment. Should warm up in a couple of months with the party conferences...

    It might also get more exciting next year with a general election 👍
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027
    kle4 said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Idiocy - far more effective than hacking, a lot of the time.
    I hope they had the decency to add 2 or 3 known members of the real IRA to the list.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,936
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Perhaps just because I work in IT and security stuff, but I still don’t understand why the main political parties seem to be totally unable to vet MP candidates for online history.

    As a side note, a 35-year-old at the next election, will have likely had an iPhone and a Facebook account since they were 18. Definitely nothing to be dug up there…
    There has to be some leeway in terms of freedom of thought and youthful hi jinks but yes background checks can be done
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Indeed he should take a lead out of the conservatives’ book - they expertly vet their candidates to ensure none of them have radical rightwing backgrounds or problematic opinions, of course.
    CCHQ do
    For how long have they done that? I am terrified that what we've ended up with are the vetted ones.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Attempt to gain political traction by labeling the likes of GREENPEACE as "radical eco warriors" amply demonstrates the degree of desperation AND delusion currently gripping the bottom feeders who are manufacturing & megaphoning what passes for strategy, in what passes for the Conservative Party in 2023.

    Precisely - although the attempt to conflate them with their more radical younger sibling groups is clear.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,954

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Indeed he should take a lead out of the conservatives’ book - they expertly vet their candidates to ensure none of them have radical rightwing backgrounds or problematic opinions, of course.
    Erm...

    Ed Green, suspended by the Conservative Party ahead of Havering Council's Upminster by-election, has defended a Facebook post mocking Greta Thunberg.

    https://twitter.com/RomfordRecorder/status/1688898741250711552

    The summary really doesn't do the story justice.
    What's wrong with mocking a political activist?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
    When I was working, I'd always try to leave any email for at least five minutes as a draft before sending, and check over it. Preferably overnight, if I could.

    I fear too many people treat emails as if it is an Internet chat, or PB...
    Absolutely, always better to sit on something, and see nothing more than an annoying typo on the sent version.

    No-one should be using email for FOI request responses though, it should go through a CRM system with multiple checks and signoffs along the way.

    This particular case is such an egregious breach of security, that it could result in millions of pounds of costs in giving people new identities and relocating them for security reasons. No way should any employee outside the HR department, have access to a full staff list.
    At Company Y, someone in HR sent out a spreadsheet with everyone's salary on it, company-wide. A minute or so later they sent an Outlook recall request. Except a load of us were using SMTP/POP3, and recalls did not work on us ...
    I actually managed to successfully recall once (don't worry, it was something a little early, not sensitive), with all internal people, but most of the time that option might as well not even be there for what it does versus what people think it does.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
    When I was working, I'd always try to leave any email for at least five minutes as a draft before sending, and check over it. Preferably overnight, if I could.

    I fear too many people treat emails as if it is an Internet chat, or PB...
    Absolutely, always better to sit on something, and see nothing more than an annoying typo on the sent version.

    No-one should be using email for FOI request responses though, it should go through a CRM system with multiple checks and signoffs along the way.

    This particular case is such an egregious breach of security, that it could result in millions of pounds of costs in giving people new identities and relocating them for security reasons. No way should any employee outside the HR department, have access to a full staff list.
    At Company Y, someone in HR sent out a spreadsheet with everyone's salary on it, company-wide. A minute or so later they sent an Outlook recall request. Except a load of us were using SMTP/POP3, and recalls did not work on us ...
    I've often thought, JJ, that it would be a good thing if everyone knew everyone else's take home pay.

    In fact I once suggested to OGH that posters here should be required to publish this information at the head of each contribution, but for some reason he never took this up.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    edited August 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Indeed he should take a lead out of the conservatives’ book - they expertly vet their candidates to ensure none of them have radical rightwing backgrounds or problematic opinions, of course.
    Erm...

    Ed Green, suspended by the Conservative Party ahead of Havering Council's Upminster by-election, has defended a Facebook post mocking Greta Thunberg.

    https://twitter.com/RomfordRecorder/status/1688898741250711552

    The summary really doesn't do the story justice.
    What's wrong with mocking a political activist?
    ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

    "His Facebook posts included mocking autistic climate campaigner Greta Thunberg, supporting Andrew Bridgen MP after he compared Covid vaccines to the Holocaust and referring to a gay journalist as living a “monkeypox prone life”.

    He also described a black woman as “a race baiting attention whore”, and shared offensive caricatures of Muslim men."

    ETA he called Thunberg "a little autistic messiah."

    I can't help but be struck by the fact that after spending the whole summer posting It's always warmish/There's always a couple of fires in summer, you leap in to defend an indefensible attack on GT. The planet is warming. It is not making an elaborate pretence of doing so, to spite you personally. Get used to it.
  • New polling - given exclusively to Channel 4 News - shows a Labour landslide victory with around 460 seats and the Conservatives reduced to 90 seats - if there were an imminent general election.

    Poll by
    @FindoutnowUK
    and
    @ElectCalculus
    .

    @PGMcNamara
    has more details.

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1688978277665320961
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    I am quite green in my way and I cant stand greenpeace they are a huge pile of the word we cant say
    I went off them when they openly lied about the Brent Spar.

    "Greenpeace admitted that its claims that the Spar contained 5500 tonnes of oil were inaccurate and apologized to Shell on 5 September. This preempted the publication of DNV's report, which endorsed Shell's initial estimates for many pollutants."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Spar
    Overestimating the level of pollutants in a disused platform several years ago does not a set of revolutionary anarchists make.
  • Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Indeed he should take a lead out of the conservatives’ book - they expertly vet their candidates to ensure none of them have radical rightwing backgrounds or problematic opinions, of course.
    Erm...

    Ed Green, suspended by the Conservative Party ahead of Havering Council's Upminster by-election, has defended a Facebook post mocking Greta Thunberg.

    https://twitter.com/RomfordRecorder/status/1688898741250711552

    The summary really doesn't do the story justice.
    What's wrong with mocking a political activist?
    Like I say, the story is much worse than the summary suggests.

    He also described a black woman as “a race baiting attention whore”, and shared offensive caricatures of Muslim men...

    https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/23707903.suspended-conservative-ed-green-defends-greta-thunberg-post/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    edited August 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Indeed he should take a lead out of the conservatives’ book - they expertly vet their candidates to ensure none of them have radical rightwing backgrounds or problematic opinions, of course.
    Erm...

    Ed Green, suspended by the Conservative Party ahead of Havering Council's Upminster by-election, has defended a Facebook post mocking Greta Thunberg.

    https://twitter.com/RomfordRecorder/status/1688898741250711552

    The summary really doesn't do the story justice.
    What's wrong with mocking a political activist?
    Mocking is ok, indeed it should be done more often, but what he did was not really mocking. Calling her an attention whore and autistic messiah goes beyond that level, as it is not merely offensive (which is also mostly ok), it is very personally and gratuitously offensive in a way unconnected to her politics.

    This is one of those issues where media can undermine the story by tip toeing around details (like when criticising something someone said, but not saying what it was, so the reader doesn't know how offended to be), but at least here they included images.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    After a decade of naively giving it everything it wanted (deregulation, defunding local government, a permissive planning system) the trend in this field has been lots of new legislation on to the development industry, largely in reaction to Grenfell, and stopping all new development in constituencies it hopes to win. A few weeks ago Gove refused planning consent for the demolition of M and S on Oxford Street - a building that had been turned down for listing twice.

    I wouldn't be suprised if the next thing he comes out with is a 'grade 3 listing', as loobied for by some architects - essentially requiring that buildings with some architectural value and merit cannot be demolished.
    We should perhaps have inverse grading system as well so that there is a presumption of allowing for the demolition of buildings with no architectural merit.
    The emerging presumption is against demolition because of its environmental impact and embodied carbon. There are powerful forces in the architecture and development industry that are trying to 'decarbonise' the industry. I've also read stuff which is straying in to communism, like they shouldn't be building flats in London that are rented out as airbnb's, and that they need to be building houses for the homeless because 'the public sector has failed'. How this agenda gets reconciled with the idea of making profit in a free market economy is difficult to assess.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    I think not. I think the Police may well find arson and wilful destruction and the Planners can insist on a full rebuild. If this is the case then the directors are very likely to be declared to be not "fit and proper" and may end up being disbarred for good measure.

    Primie Facie, a nasty case of developer greed and public outrage will force the restitution of the pub.

    As for the impact on the Conservatives, None I think, personally, they may be fools, but so far only Baroness Mone seems to be thought of as an out-and-out crook personally, though that could of course certainly change..

    On the other hand, the opposition can now start to paint the Tories back tracking on green policies as a corrupt party in the pockets of corporate greed on a far bigger scale than the vandalism of the Crooked House. The Daily Mail, may be on side, but the support of the populist far right can be assumed anyway and the readership of these populist rags is falling apart.

    The moderates in the shires and suburbs are going to be very turned off by this, and that could see the wholesale defection of the Shires away from the Tories to the Lib Dems and in some places the Greens. That, I think, will cause far more damage than the Faragist Reform/Reclaim Paper tiger that HYFUD says he fears so much.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,014
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Perhaps just because I work in IT and security stuff, but I still don’t understand why the main political parties seem to be totally unable to vet MP candidates for online history.

    As a side note, a 35-year-old at the next election, will have likely had an iPhone and a Facebook account since they were 18. Definitely nothing to be dug up there…
    There has to be some leeway in terms of freedom of thought and youthful hi jinks but yes background checks can be done
    I happen to know some people who run onlyfans/chaturbate accounts. And their view is pretty much "Well, everyone does. So what?".

    Possibly in a few years we'll (DM excluded) have gotten past the 'OMG! $person did WHAT when they were a teenager?!?!?!"
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    Except that’s not remotely what happened. Which is why this story is the lead UK story in the Guardian and is the third headline in The Times

    It is resonating
    Conspiracies do happen and this is one I’m inclined to believe in. Needs, what, a dozen people or so to execute tops? A close knit group with a clear motive? Yes. I’m sold on this one.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
    I do think, thanks. I might take the same data and come to a different conclusion; that does not mean I am not *thinking*. Or 'signalling' for that matter.

    And if you really want to rewarm this discussion (why?) I'd ask you to send me a link to the gent's comments, as I did on the previous thread. Or I might think you are trolling.
    No, you don't. You pick the bandwagon with the prettiest banner.
    https://twitter.com/PhilipHensher/status/1688885747275763712

    [SO else]An object lesson in bringing queer history into disrepute.

    Hensher: Exactly

    Also Hensher

    I increasingly think the drive to queer things has absolutely nothing to do with gay sex, and in many proponents’ case they are rather repulsed by it.

    Which I think, if you substitute trans for queer and gay, nails you exactly. Neither the queer nor the trans were put on this earth to furnish a hobby for amiable old straight buffers like you.
    Thanks for the link. AS for the rest of your post: grow up. reasonable people can reasonably disagree, and you are just being plain nasty.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer will certainly be wary to vet candidates backgrounds to ensure no further radical eco warriors can be used in Tory campaign literature

    Perhaps just because I work in IT and security stuff, but I still don’t understand why the main political parties seem to be totally unable to vet MP candidates for online history.

    As a side note, a 35-year-old at the next election, will have likely had an iPhone and a Facebook account since they were 18. Definitely nothing to be dug up there…
    There has to be some leeway in terms of freedom of thought and youthful hi jinks but yes background checks can be done
    How much youthful hi-jinks should be allowed, is almost certainly going to come up at the next election, and bite someone on the arse.

    I’ll almost guarantee that someone in their thirties, standing as a candidate in 2024, posted something like “the only problem with gassing the Jews, is that they only did six million of them and missed out the rest”, in 2006, to an audience of about three, totally devoid of context and likely to have been an in-joke among friends at the time - and totally forgotten about until a journalist picks up on it a few weeks before the election.
  • TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    pm215 said:

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Just reeks of gimmickry. No solutions to any of the multiple problems the nation faces. Just another group to demonise. Or zombify if you prefer. And are people that bothered by Greenpeace? Been around for yonks

    The French were bothered, during the 1980s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
    Greenpeace are the old fogeys of the green ecosystem, the cool kids are elsewhere.
    Mmm, and I think that if you try to say "this lot are beyond the pale, menaces to society" about Greenpeace a lot of people will react with "what, Greenpeace? don't be daft". You could probably get that line of attack across against Extinction Rebellion, but I think Greenpeace is just too familiar and old a name.
    That's part of why they are the old fogeys of the green movement - they are the comfortable, establishment side of it to the real radicals. Probably seen as busy hobnobbing with powerful people too much or some such stuff.
    Exposed! Sir Keir Starmer’s shadowy links with woke National Trust and RSPB. Insiders claim he may even have been present at RNLI gathering in 1990s.
    "His sister is a thespian!" was once hurled at an opponent by his (successful) challenger, a mid-20th century Florida politico.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    The "Demolition for Safety Reasons" looks weak - especially since access for fire engines was blocked, while a JCB happened to be conveniently on site.
    "We had to destroy the pub to save it!"
    They do not get to choose, the local Planners do, and they were on site and can confirm that the demolition was illegal. It is a clear breach and is going to end up being very expensive.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027

    New polling - given exclusively to Channel 4 News - shows a Labour landslide victory with around 460 seats and the Conservatives reduced to 90 seats - if there were an imminent general election.

    Poll by
    @FindoutnowUK
    and
    @ElectCalculus
    .

    @PGMcNamara
    has more details.

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1688978277665320961

    Useful information for those tempted to bet on the next Tory leader.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
    I do think, thanks. I might take the same data and come to a different conclusion; that does not mean I am not *thinking*. Or 'signalling' for that matter.

    And if you really want to rewarm this discussion (why?) I'd ask you to send me a link to the gent's comments, as I did on the previous thread. Or I might think you are trolling.
    No, you don't. You pick the bandwagon with the prettiest banner.
    https://twitter.com/PhilipHensher/status/1688885747275763712

    [SO else]An object lesson in bringing queer history into disrepute.

    Hensher: Exactly

    Also Hensher

    I increasingly think the drive to queer things has absolutely nothing to do with gay sex, and in many proponents’ case they are rather repulsed by it.

    Which I think, if you substitute trans for queer and gay, nails you exactly. Neither the queer nor the trans were put on this earth to furnish a hobby for amiable old straight buffers like you.
    Thanks for the link. AS for the rest of your post: grow up. reasonable people can reasonably disagree, and you are just being plain nasty.
    We don't disagree. You entertain ideaoids rather than ideas. You think this is harmless. You are in fact cheering on people who castrate 16 year old boys for being gay. I am opposed to this practice. I am not exaggerating or joking.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Cicero said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    The "Demolition for Safety Reasons" looks weak - especially since access for fire engines was blocked, while a JCB happened to be conveniently on site.
    "We had to destroy the pub to save it!"
    They do not get to choose, the local Planners do, and they were on site and can confirm that the demolition was illegal. It is a clear breach and is going to end up being very expensive.
    The demolition so soon after the fire was a giant red flag. Even after such damage you just don't get permission that fast, so if the fire was not intentional it could have just waited, and if it was intentional they still could have.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    DavidL said:

    New polling - given exclusively to Channel 4 News - shows a Labour landslide victory with around 460 seats and the Conservatives reduced to 90 seats - if there were an imminent general election.

    Poll by
    @FindoutnowUK
    and
    @ElectCalculus
    .

    @PGMcNamara
    has more details.

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1688978277665320961

    Useful information for those tempted to bet on the next Tory leader.
    I think everyone knows my views on that score. Get in now while you still can.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,014

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
    When I was working, I'd always try to leave any email for at least five minutes as a draft before sending, and check over it. Preferably overnight, if I could.

    I fear too many people treat emails as if it is an Internet chat, or PB...
    Absolutely, always better to sit on something, and see nothing more than an annoying typo on the sent version.

    No-one should be using email for FOI request responses though, it should go through a CRM system with multiple checks and signoffs along the way.

    This particular case is such an egregious breach of security, that it could result in millions of pounds of costs in giving people new identities and relocating them for security reasons. No way should any employee outside the HR department, have access to a full staff list.
    At Company Y, someone in HR sent out a spreadsheet with everyone's salary on it, company-wide. A minute or so later they sent an Outlook recall request. Except a load of us were using SMTP/POP3, and recalls did not work on us ...
    I asked for a list of student matric numbers on course 1234 from our central "We Do It Proper" IT a while back and was emailed a spreadsheet full of matric numbers along with home addresses, private emails, country of origin, passport details, etc etc. I couldn't delete it fast enough...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
    I do think, thanks. I might take the same data and come to a different conclusion; that does not mean I am not *thinking*. Or 'signalling' for that matter.

    And if you really want to rewarm this discussion (why?) I'd ask you to send me a link to the gent's comments, as I did on the previous thread. Or I might think you are trolling.
    No, you don't. You pick the bandwagon with the prettiest banner.
    https://twitter.com/PhilipHensher/status/1688885747275763712

    [SO else]An object lesson in bringing queer history into disrepute.

    Hensher: Exactly

    Also Hensher

    I increasingly think the drive to queer things has absolutely nothing to do with gay sex, and in many proponents’ case they are rather repulsed by it.

    Which I think, if you substitute trans for queer and gay, nails you exactly. Neither the queer nor the trans were put on this earth to furnish a hobby for amiable old straight buffers like you.
    Thanks for the link. AS for the rest of your post: grow up. reasonable people can reasonably disagree, and you are just being plain nasty.
    We don't disagree. You entertain ideaoids rather than ideas. You think this is harmless. You are in fact cheering on people who castrate 16 year old boys for being gay. I am opposed to this practice. I am not exaggerating or joking.
    Now you are bang out of order.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
    I do think, thanks. I might take the same data and come to a different conclusion; that does not mean I am not *thinking*. Or 'signalling' for that matter.

    And if you really want to rewarm this discussion (why?) I'd ask you to send me a link to the gent's comments, as I did on the previous thread. Or I might think you are trolling.
    No, you don't. You pick the bandwagon with the prettiest banner.
    https://twitter.com/PhilipHensher/status/1688885747275763712

    [SO else]An object lesson in bringing queer history into disrepute.

    Hensher: Exactly

    Also Hensher

    I increasingly think the drive to queer things has absolutely nothing to do with gay sex, and in many proponents’ case they are rather repulsed by it.

    Which I think, if you substitute trans for queer and gay, nails you exactly. Neither the queer nor the trans were put on this earth to furnish a hobby for amiable old straight buffers like you.
    Thanks for the link. AS for the rest of your post: grow up. reasonable people can reasonably disagree, and you are just being plain nasty.
    We don't disagree. You entertain ideaoids rather than ideas. You think this is harmless. You are in fact cheering on people who castrate 16 year old boys for being gay. I am opposed to this practice. I am not exaggerating or joking.
    Now you are bang out of order.
    No. If you bothered to research your bandwagons before leaping aboard, you would know exactly what I mean.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,714
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    I think not. I think the Police may well find arson and wilful destruction and the Planners can insist on a full rebuild. If this is the case then the directors are very likely to be declared to be not "fit and proper" and may end up being disbarred for good measure.

    Primie Facie, a nasty case of developer greed and public outrage will force the restitution of the pub.

    As for the impact on the Conservatives, None I think, personally, they may be fools, but so far only Baroness Mone seems to be thought of as an out-and-out crook personally, though that could of course certainly change..

    On the other hand, the opposition can now start to paint the Tories back tracking on green policies as a corrupt party in the pockets of corporate greed on a far bigger scale than the vandalism of the Crooked House. The Daily Mail, may be on side, but the support of the populist far right can be assumed anyway and the readership of these populist rags is falling apart.

    The moderates in the shires and suburbs are going to be very turned off by this, and that could see the wholesale defection of the Shires away from the Tories to the Lib Dems and in some places the Greens. That, I think, will cause far more damage than the Faragist Reform/Reclaim Paper tiger that HYFUD says he fears so much.
    Any hopes Rishi had of 'reforming' the planning laws are surely in tatters. His opponents can now portray it as 'a Crooked House coming to near you', and pretty much everyone will be sympathetic.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027
    edited August 2023
    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    New polling - given exclusively to Channel 4 News - shows a Labour landslide victory with around 460 seats and the Conservatives reduced to 90 seats - if there were an imminent general election.

    Poll by
    @FindoutnowUK
    and
    @ElectCalculus
    .

    @PGMcNamara
    has more details.

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1688978277665320961

    Useful information for those tempted to bet on the next Tory leader.
    I think everyone knows my views on that score. Get in now while you still can.
    Err… nope. FWIW I can’t see past Mordaunt.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    ohnotnow said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
    When I was working, I'd always try to leave any email for at least five minutes as a draft before sending, and check over it. Preferably overnight, if I could.

    I fear too many people treat emails as if it is an Internet chat, or PB...
    Absolutely, always better to sit on something, and see nothing more than an annoying typo on the sent version.

    No-one should be using email for FOI request responses though, it should go through a CRM system with multiple checks and signoffs along the way.

    This particular case is such an egregious breach of security, that it could result in millions of pounds of costs in giving people new identities and relocating them for security reasons. No way should any employee outside the HR department, have access to a full staff list.
    At Company Y, someone in HR sent out a spreadsheet with everyone's salary on it, company-wide. A minute or so later they sent an Outlook recall request. Except a load of us were using SMTP/POP3, and recalls did not work on us ...
    I asked for a list of student matric numbers on course 1234 from our central "We Do It Proper" IT a while back and was emailed a spreadsheet full of matric numbers along with home addresses, private emails, country of origin, passport details, etc etc. I couldn't delete it fast enough...
    Er whoops. Do you have an ‘information commissioner’, InfoSec manager, or similar role within your organisation, to whom you can report such data breaches? People need to be trained, in order that such mistakes aren’t repeated.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    edited August 2023

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    I think not. I think the Police may well find arson and wilful destruction and the Planners can insist on a full rebuild. If this is the case then the directors are very likely to be declared to be not "fit and proper" and may end up being disbarred for good measure.

    Primie Facie, a nasty case of developer greed and public outrage will force the restitution of the pub.

    As for the impact on the Conservatives, None I think, personally, they may be fools, but so far only Baroness Mone seems to be thought of as an out-and-out crook personally, though that could of course certainly change..

    On the other hand, the opposition can now start to paint the Tories back tracking on green policies as a corrupt party in the pockets of corporate greed on a far bigger scale than the vandalism of the Crooked House. The Daily Mail, may be on side, but the support of the populist far right can be assumed anyway and the readership of these populist rags is falling apart.

    The moderates in the shires and suburbs are going to be very turned off by this, and that could see the wholesale defection of the Shires away from the Tories to the Lib Dems and in some places the Greens. That, I think, will cause far more damage than the Faragist Reform/Reclaim Paper tiger that HYFUD says he fears so much.
    Any hopes Rishi had of 'reforming' the planning laws are surely in tatters. His opponents can now portray it as 'a Crooked House coming to near you', and pretty much everyone will be sympathetic.
    Boris couldn't get the votes to reform it despite his big majority whilst he was riding high and doing ok in the polls, Rishi never had much chance.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    I think not. I think the Police may well find arson and wilful destruction and the Planners can insist on a full rebuild. If this is the case then the directors are very likely to be declared to be not "fit and proper" and may end up being disbarred for good measure.

    Primie Facie, a nasty case of developer greed and public outrage will force the restitution of the pub.

    As for the impact on the Conservatives, None I think, personally, they may be fools, but so far only Baroness Mone seems to be thought of as an out-and-out crook personally, though that could of course certainly change..

    On the other hand, the opposition can now start to paint the Tories back tracking on green policies as a corrupt party in the pockets of corporate greed on a far bigger scale than the vandalism of the Crooked House. The Daily Mail, may be on side, but the support of the populist far right can be assumed anyway and the readership of these populist rags is falling apart.

    The moderates in the shires and suburbs are going to be very turned off by this, and that could see the wholesale defection of the Shires away from the Tories to the Lib Dems and in some places the Greens. That, I think, will cause far more damage than the Faragist Reform/Reclaim Paper tiger that HYFUD says he fears so much.
    can it be arson if it is your own property?
    I don't think the planning enforcement issue is particularly straightforward, I think it would go to a public Inquiry. If the notice ultimately gets upheld and they have to rebuild the pub then the holding company could just go bust and the site stays empty.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    The "Demolition for Safety Reasons" looks weak - especially since access for fire engines was blocked, while a JCB happened to be conveniently on site.
    "We had to destroy the pub to save it!"
    They do not get to choose, the local Planners do, and they were on site and can confirm that the demolition was illegal. It is a clear breach and is going to end up being very expensive.
    The demolition so soon after the fire was a giant red flag. Even after such damage you just don't get permission that fast, so if the fire was not intentional it could have just waited, and if it was intentional they still could have.
    It’s looking increasingly like this is going to end up a neat little morality tale, with the crooked house being rebuilt (can it be rebuilt crooked though, under building regs?) and the
    developers bang to rights.

    The future of the pub then, if rebuilt - but who pays? Developer will immediately declare bankruptcy of course - is probably more golden than it was before. Given a nice makeover it could become a bit of a tourist draw.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    edited August 2023
    darkage said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    I think not. I think the Police may well find arson and wilful destruction and the Planners can insist on a full rebuild. If this is the case then the directors are very likely to be declared to be not "fit and proper" and may end up being disbarred for good measure.

    Primie Facie, a nasty case of developer greed and public outrage will force the restitution of the pub.

    As for the impact on the Conservatives, None I think, personally, they may be fools, but so far only Baroness Mone seems to be thought of as an out-and-out crook personally, though that could of course certainly change..

    On the other hand, the opposition can now start to paint the Tories back tracking on green policies as a corrupt party in the pockets of corporate greed on a far bigger scale than the vandalism of the Crooked House. The Daily Mail, may be on side, but the support of the populist far right can be assumed anyway and the readership of these populist rags is falling apart.

    The moderates in the shires and suburbs are going to be very turned off by this, and that could see the wholesale defection of the Shires away from the Tories to the Lib Dems and in some places the Greens. That, I think, will cause far more damage than the Faragist Reform/Reclaim Paper tiger that HYFUD says he fears so much.
    can it be arson if it is your own property?
    I don't think the planning enforcement issue is particularly straightforward, I think it would go to a public Inquiry. If the notice ultimately gets upheld and they have to rebuild the pub then the holding company could just go bust and the site stays empty.
    Yes, it’s arson and fraud if you intend to claim on an insurance policy, or to get around a preservation/listing order.

    On the demolition, it’s not unusual for authorities to order the rapid demolition of an unstable building, but that would need in this case to be in connection with fire, police, and the local council.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    edited August 2023
    darkage said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    I think not. I think the Police may well find arson and wilful destruction and the Planners can insist on a full rebuild. If this is the case then the directors are very likely to be declared to be not "fit and proper" and may end up being disbarred for good measure.

    Primie Facie, a nasty case of developer greed and public outrage will force the restitution of the pub.

    As for the impact on the Conservatives, None I think, personally, they may be fools, but so far only Baroness Mone seems to be thought of as an out-and-out crook personally, though that could of course certainly change..

    On the other hand, the opposition can now start to paint the Tories back tracking on green policies as a corrupt party in the pockets of corporate greed on a far bigger scale than the vandalism of the Crooked House. The Daily Mail, may be on side, but the support of the populist far right can be assumed anyway and the readership of these populist rags is falling apart.

    The moderates in the shires and suburbs are going to be very turned off by this, and that could see the wholesale defection of the Shires away from the Tories to the Lib Dems and in some places the Greens. That, I think, will cause far more damage than the Faragist Reform/Reclaim Paper tiger that HYFUD says he fears so much.
    can it be arson if it is your own property?
    I don't think the planning enforcement issue is particularly straightforward, I think it would go to a public Inquiry. If the notice ultimately gets upheld and they have to rebuild the pub then the holding company could just go bust and the site stays empty.
    Arson is committed "if a person without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property by fire, intending to destroy or damage any such property or being reckless as to whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged."

    Obv you have a better chance of establishing "lawful excuse" if it's your own property, but the fact you own it is not a get out of jail card.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    From the Special Counsel's response to the Trump team's motion about a protective order, I think this paragraph is legalese for 'Nice try, mate', with the bit in bold being 'Yeah, right'.

    I'm totally sure lawyers propose wording that can be read broadly but would never take advantage of that.

    n paragraph 3 (and relatedly in paragraph 9), the defendant proposes replacing the
    language regarding “persons employed to assist in the defense” with “persons
    assisting in the defense (defined as including any attorneys, investigators,
    paralegals, support staff, consultants, or expert witnesses who are advising or
    assisting defense counsel.).” In a meet-and-confer call, defense counsel stated that
    their intention is that this language should not be read as broadly as its plain
    wording, and indicated a willingness to work on language to that effect.
    The
    defendant’s proposed language is boundless and would allow virtually any
    volunteer to access discovery, as well as any co-conspirator or fact witness. The
    Government’s language is more definite

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.258149/gov.uscourts.dcd.258149.15.0_1.pdf
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    After a decade of naively giving it everything it wanted (deregulation, defunding local government, a permissive planning system) the trend in this field has been lots of new legislation on to the development industry, largely in reaction to Grenfell, and stopping all new development in constituencies it hopes to win. A few weeks ago Gove refused planning consent for the demolition of M and S on Oxford Street - a building that had been turned down for listing twice.

    I wouldn't be suprised if the next thing he comes out with is a 'grade 3 listing', as loobied for by some architects - essentially requiring that buildings with some architectural value and merit cannot be demolished.
    We should perhaps have inverse grading system as well so that there is a presumption of allowing for the demolition of buildings with no architectural merit.
    The emerging presumption is against demolition because of its environmental impact and embodied carbon. There are powerful forces in the architecture and development industry that are trying to 'decarbonise' the industry. I've also read stuff which is straying in to communism, like they shouldn't be building flats in London that are rented out as airbnb's, and that they need to be building houses for the homeless because 'the public sector has failed'. How this agenda gets reconciled with the idea of making profit in a free market economy is difficult to assess.
    Not sure you have entirely got the point of this nonsense. It is to be virtuous, edgy and pure. Profit is a dirty word.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
    I do think, thanks. I might take the same data and come to a different conclusion; that does not mean I am not *thinking*. Or 'signalling' for that matter.

    And if you really want to rewarm this discussion (why?) I'd ask you to send me a link to the gent's comments, as I did on the previous thread. Or I might think you are trolling.
    No, you don't. You pick the bandwagon with the prettiest banner.
    https://twitter.com/PhilipHensher/status/1688885747275763712

    [SO else]An object lesson in bringing queer history into disrepute.

    Hensher: Exactly

    Also Hensher

    I increasingly think the drive to queer things has absolutely nothing to do with gay sex, and in many proponents’ case they are rather repulsed by it.

    Which I think, if you substitute trans for queer and gay, nails you exactly. Neither the queer nor the trans were put on this earth to furnish a hobby for amiable old straight buffers like you.
    Thanks for the link. AS for the rest of your post: grow up. reasonable people can reasonably disagree, and you are just being plain nasty.
    We don't disagree. You entertain ideaoids rather than ideas. You think this is harmless. You are in fact cheering on people who castrate 16 year old boys for being gay. I am opposed to this practice. I am not exaggerating or joking.
    Now you are bang out of order.
    No. If you bothered to research your bandwagons before leaping aboard, you would know exactly what I mean.
    To make it quite clear (and I fear this is exactly what you want): I am not "cheering on people who castrate 16 year old boys for being gay." I never have.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,014
    Sandpit said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
    When I was working, I'd always try to leave any email for at least five minutes as a draft before sending, and check over it. Preferably overnight, if I could.

    I fear too many people treat emails as if it is an Internet chat, or PB...
    Absolutely, always better to sit on something, and see nothing more than an annoying typo on the sent version.

    No-one should be using email for FOI request responses though, it should go through a CRM system with multiple checks and signoffs along the way.

    This particular case is such an egregious breach of security, that it could result in millions of pounds of costs in giving people new identities and relocating them for security reasons. No way should any employee outside the HR department, have access to a full staff list.
    At Company Y, someone in HR sent out a spreadsheet with everyone's salary on it, company-wide. A minute or so later they sent an Outlook recall request. Except a load of us were using SMTP/POP3, and recalls did not work on us ...
    I asked for a list of student matric numbers on course 1234 from our central "We Do It Proper" IT a while back and was emailed a spreadsheet full of matric numbers along with home addresses, private emails, country of origin, passport details, etc etc. I couldn't delete it fast enough...
    Er whoops. Do you have an ‘information commissioner’, InfoSec manager, or similar role within your organisation, to whom you can report such data breaches? People need to be trained, in order that such mistakes aren’t repeated.
    In theory - yes. In practice, unless it's a public-facing "incident" then .... 'meh'. We're great at theatre we are. Tick-boxes ticked to within an inch of their lives...

    I had an email just a few weeks ago saying 'A new file has been uploaded to your $secure_files_area!'. Thought 'eh?' and looked at it - very quickly realising it was the Occupational Health records of someone else and their *very* private details of their health issues.

    "Oops! 'The System' must have gone funny!"

    So that's fine.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    ohnotnow said:

    Sandpit said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PSNI: Major data breach identifies thousands of officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66445452

    Not hackers this time. Rather, some idiot included the names of every PSNI police officer in response to an FOI request.

    Does no-one do a check on FOI request responses before they leave the internal systems? That’s an insane story from an InfoSec point of view.

    There should always be an independent second pair of eyes on stuff like this, doubly so in such a sensitive agency as the PSNI.
    When I was working, I'd always try to leave any email for at least five minutes as a draft before sending, and check over it. Preferably overnight, if I could.

    I fear too many people treat emails as if it is an Internet chat, or PB...
    Absolutely, always better to sit on something, and see nothing more than an annoying typo on the sent version.

    No-one should be using email for FOI request responses though, it should go through a CRM system with multiple checks and signoffs along the way.

    This particular case is such an egregious breach of security, that it could result in millions of pounds of costs in giving people new identities and relocating them for security reasons. No way should any employee outside the HR department, have access to a full staff list.
    At Company Y, someone in HR sent out a spreadsheet with everyone's salary on it, company-wide. A minute or so later they sent an Outlook recall request. Except a load of us were using SMTP/POP3, and recalls did not work on us ...
    I asked for a list of student matric numbers on course 1234 from our central "We Do It Proper" IT a while back and was emailed a spreadsheet full of matric numbers along with home addresses, private emails, country of origin, passport details, etc etc. I couldn't delete it fast enough...
    Er whoops. Do you have an ‘information commissioner’, InfoSec manager, or similar role within your organisation, to whom you can report such data breaches? People need to be trained, in order that such mistakes aren’t repeated.
    In theory - yes. In practice, unless it's a public-facing "incident" then .... 'meh'. We're great at theatre we are. Tick-boxes ticked to within an inch of their lives...

    I had an email just a few weeks ago saying 'A new file has been uploaded to your $secure_files_area!'. Thought 'eh?' and looked at it - very quickly realising it was the Occupational Health records of someone else and their *very* private details of their health issues.

    "Oops! 'The System' must have gone funny!"

    So that's fine.
    :open_mouth:
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
    I do think, thanks. I might take the same data and come to a different conclusion; that does not mean I am not *thinking*. Or 'signalling' for that matter.

    And if you really want to rewarm this discussion (why?) I'd ask you to send me a link to the gent's comments, as I did on the previous thread. Or I might think you are trolling.
    No, you don't. You pick the bandwagon with the prettiest banner.
    https://twitter.com/PhilipHensher/status/1688885747275763712

    [SO else]An object lesson in bringing queer history into disrepute.

    Hensher: Exactly

    Also Hensher

    I increasingly think the drive to queer things has absolutely nothing to do with gay sex, and in many proponents’ case they are rather repulsed by it.

    Which I think, if you substitute trans for queer and gay, nails you exactly. Neither the queer nor the trans were put on this earth to furnish a hobby for amiable old straight buffers like you.
    Thanks for the link. AS for the rest of your post: grow up. reasonable people can reasonably disagree, and you are just being plain nasty.
    We don't disagree. You entertain ideaoids rather than ideas. You think this is harmless. You are in fact cheering on people who castrate 16 year old boys for being gay. I am opposed to this practice. I am not exaggerating or joking.
    Now you are bang out of order.
    No. If you bothered to research your bandwagons before leaping aboard, you would know exactly what I mean.
    To make it quite clear (and I fear this is exactly what you want): I am not "cheering on people who castrate 16 year old boys for being gay." I never have.
    Not explicitly, no. Obviously. But yes by implication, because you can't be arsed to research, or think about, the people you are explicitly aligning yourself with. you are living proof of the perils of intellectual laziness.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    darkage said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.

    Leon said:

    I wonder if “Crooked House” will start to resonate on the national political stage

    It is a perfect story for a Labour Party which seeks to brand the Tories as greedy venal capitalists who have turned the nation into a mirror image of themselves. Britain is “This Crooked House” where the rich do what they like and trample on the little people and their stupid pubs. The brewing company Marstons now, also, has tough questions to answer

    It is obviously striking home in a way few stories like this ever do. It does seem to summarise a mood. Enough.

    And it’s not good for billionaire Sunak and chums

    It was bought by a developer whilst a grade II listing was being sought. It accidentally caught fire, and on the grounds of safety the developer decided to demolish. After a year or two of planning appeals, the developer developed. The end.
    I think not. I think the Police may well find arson and wilful destruction and the Planners can insist on a full rebuild. If this is the case then the directors are very likely to be declared to be not "fit and proper" and may end up being disbarred for good measure.

    Primie Facie, a nasty case of developer greed and public outrage will force the restitution of the pub.

    As for the impact on the Conservatives, None I think, personally, they may be fools, but so far only Baroness Mone seems to be thought of as an out-and-out crook personally, though that could of course certainly change..

    On the other hand, the opposition can now start to paint the Tories back tracking on green policies as a corrupt party in the pockets of corporate greed on a far bigger scale than the vandalism of the Crooked House. The Daily Mail, may be on side, but the support of the populist far right can be assumed anyway and the readership of these populist rags is falling apart.

    The moderates in the shires and suburbs are going to be very turned off by this, and that could see the wholesale defection of the Shires away from the Tories to the Lib Dems and in some places the Greens. That, I think, will cause far more damage than the Faragist Reform/Reclaim Paper tiger that HYFUD says he fears so much.
    can it be arson if it is your own property?
    I don't think the planning enforcement issue is particularly straightforward, I think it would go to a public Inquiry. If the notice ultimately gets upheld and they have to rebuild the pub then the holding company could just go bust and the site stays empty.
    To the first, oh yes.

    For the same reason, people will not be allowed permission to replace/significally renovate a listed building say which is in unusable condition, if it is established they deliberately neglected it in order that they could get permission to develop.

    To the second, I know less about enforcement than I do about planning generally, but I thought usually an enforcement order is made, and the courts involved if it gets contested, I was not aware an Inquiry would get involved.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    The second picture reminds me of this :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPC8QJF6sI

    Thanks for that. I've heard the song many times, but never seen the video.

    The other day I saw Bronski Beat's 'Smalltown Boy' video for the first time. Goes well with the lyrics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc
    Aaaand this is exactly what I am on about. You think you are with it and groovy as fuck, Daddy O, for watching a Bronski Beat video, but you (genuinely) don't see what the fuss is about when an actual contemporary gay man is livid about an actual farcical distortion of gay history. Because it's so comical to see them get all het up.

    It's not about signalling, it's about thinking.
    I do think, thanks. I might take the same data and come to a different conclusion; that does not mean I am not *thinking*. Or 'signalling' for that matter.

    And if you really want to rewarm this discussion (why?) I'd ask you to send me a link to the gent's comments, as I did on the previous thread. Or I might think you are trolling.
    No, you don't. You pick the bandwagon with the prettiest banner.
    https://twitter.com/PhilipHensher/status/1688885747275763712

    [SO else]An object lesson in bringing queer history into disrepute.

    Hensher: Exactly

    Also Hensher

    I increasingly think the drive to queer things has absolutely nothing to do with gay sex, and in many proponents’ case they are rather repulsed by it.

    Which I think, if you substitute trans for queer and gay, nails you exactly. Neither the queer nor the trans were put on this earth to furnish a hobby for amiable old straight buffers like you.
    Thanks for the link. AS for the rest of your post: grow up. reasonable people can reasonably disagree, and you are just being plain nasty.
    We don't disagree. You entertain ideaoids rather than ideas. You think this is harmless. You are in fact cheering on people who castrate 16 year old boys for being gay. I am opposed to this practice. I am not exaggerating or joking.
    Now you are bang out of order.
    No. If you bothered to research your bandwagons before leaping aboard, you would know exactly what I mean.
    To make it quite clear (and I fear this is exactly what you want): I am not "cheering on people who castrate 16 year old boys for being gay." I never have.
    Not explicitly, no. Obviously. But yes by implication, because you can't be arsed to research, or think about, the people you are explicitly aligning yourself with. you are living proof of the perils of intellectual laziness.
    What the actual fuck?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,708
    There is not a general election tomorrow. And, if there were, people would respond differently.

    So the C4 poll is worthless.
This discussion has been closed.