Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Is another CON majority really out of the question? – politicalbetting.com

24

Comments

  • Carnyx said:

    I was joking (mostly) - but that is potentially serious.

    Mr P is paywalled - but presumably the thrust is given by the subheading "We must ask whether generous benefits for conditions such as stress have made opting out of work too attractive".

    To which the clear answer is yes. But most especially people in employment (as opposed to those on benefits) who can opt out of work with stress, or other mental health conditions while still claiming a paycheck. So two people are paid for the same job.

    Especially but not exhaustively true in public sector employment.

    Which is not to say that stress and other mental health conditions aren't real, they are, but they're also quite easy to fake for those who are workshy.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    viewcode said:

    Don't let me put you off it: I don't want to diss it (the TV series) unfairly, and perhaps I'm wrong, but it's just that nobody really likes it, even the contrarians. It's not even like World War Z, where fans of the book eventually came to like(ish) the film. I can defend Prometheus, Star Trek: Discovery, Blake's 7 or even Westworld, but Foundation just bounces off me.
    What I really want, thouigh, are Iain M. Banks films - or perhaps also Peter Hamilton ones, esp. the Night Sessions (if only to see a future Edinburgh).
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,098

    To which the clear answer is yes. But most especially people in employment (as opposed to those on benefits) who can opt out of work with stress, or other mental health conditions while still claiming a paycheck. So two people are paid for the same job.

    Especially but not exhaustively true in public sector employment.

    Which is not to say that stress and other mental health conditions aren't real, they are, but they're also quite easy to fake for those who are workshy.
    Wedge confirmed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,184

    Cameron wasn't small-state.

    Very few politicians are.

    They only differ in what they want to spend money on and what they want to allow.
    In a democracy, small-state only works if the average Joe is wealthy enough such that the state becomes an irritant rather than a necessity.

    So, the best way to achieve it is first to raise everyone's income and level of prosperity.
  • Eabhal said:

    Wedge confirmed.
    How's that a wedge?

    I am not holding my breath on the Tories doing anything about the in work workshy. They never do. They just ramp things up harder and harder on those on eg disability benefits, who are NOT the problem.
  • That's the English don't you know?

    Sheepshagger is nicer for Welsh than saying the Welshman's dishonest and cheats when he can
    And little and dark, more like monkey than man
    He works underground with a lamp in his hat
    And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!
    Mea culpa! Must use Google more and my ailing memory less. :(
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    edited August 2023
    Eabhal said:

    Wedge confirmed.
    MOAR CARS
    Carnyx said:

    What I really want, thouigh, are Iain M. Banks films - or perhaps also Peter Hamilton ones, esp. the Night Sessions (if only to see a future Edinburgh).
    I'd prefer Iain Banks films. I look at the sheer tightness and wit and ingenuity of The Bridge/Feersum Endjinn/Walking On Glass and the self-indulgent over-writing of the Culture stuff and I despair, there's a clue in the length of the things. The low point is probably the Ship Minds trying to be funny in Excession, like PD's least talented comedians on a slow news day.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,813

    Welsh and Kiwis are sheep shaggers too.

    Everyone knows that.
    and Aberdonians!
  • In a democracy, small-state only works if the average Joe is wealthy enough such that the state becomes an irritant rather than a necessity.

    So, the best way to achieve it is first to raise everyone's income and level of prosperity.
    That only works if its via private sector wealth creation.

    And that's hard, very hard.

    Its far easier for people to vote themselves another handout.

    And politicians encourage them to do so.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,813
    Miklosvar said:

    MOAR CARS I'd prefer Iain Banks films. I look at the sheer tightness and wit and ingenuity of The Bridge/Feersum Endjinn/Walking On Glass and the self-indulgent over-writing of the Culture stuff and I despair, there's a clue in the length of the things. The low point is probably the Ship Minds trying to be funny in Excession, like PD's least talented comedians on a slow news day.
    There was a movie of Complicity and a TV series of Crow Road.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,848

    In a democracy, small-state only works if the average Joe is wealthy enough such that the state becomes an irritant rather than a necessity.

    So, the best way to achieve it is first to raise everyone's income and level of prosperity.
    Or it’s small because the country is poor, but it’s getting gradually bigger and more effective. As in places like India.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    edited August 2023
    Tres said:

    There was a movie of Complicity and a TV series of Crow Road.
    Not seen either, but I was trying to compare sci fi with sci fi

    ETA I see Feersum Endjinn is actually billed as Iain M, but it doesn't feel like it
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,848

    That only works if its via private sector wealth creation.

    And that's hard, very hard.

    Its far easier for people to vote themselves another handout.

    And politicians encourage them to do so.
    The trouble is we’re not very good at distinguishing between handouts that encourage economic growth, and handouts that discourage it.

    Putting more money in the pockets of poor people means they spend more in the economy, either as consumers or entrepreneurs, and advances the
    opportunities for growth. So does spending money on infrastructure, health and education so long as it’s efficiently deployed.

    Spending money on people who will just save it, or on unproductive activities that could and should be more efficient and automated if not run by government, and on white elephants, is value destroying.

    But we tend to lump both into the same ideological category.
  • Carnyx said:

    What I really want, thouigh, are Iain M. Banks films - or perhaps also Peter Hamilton ones, esp. the Night Sessions (if only to see a future Edinburgh).
    I suppose we are finally at the point both technically and commercially where you could do justice to the Confederation Universe. But it would have to be done as a TV series rather than a film series.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,783
    Off thread - but even in the wake of tye biggest storm of the year, apparently, you can't beat south west England for a holiday.


    At any rate, I'd rather be here in 17 degrees and changeable than in Europe and baking.
    And I'd certainly rather be here than in Europe in the rain, which is what I normally seem to get.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,741
    I think Penny Mordaunt with a head of steam could get a maj. Don't see Sunak getting one.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,123
    darkage said:

    The reality is that due to austerity a large part of public sector employment has become intolerable. If you keep telling people they need to do more with less they end up having a breakdown. This isn't people being 'workshy'. This type of misguided thinking has led to the problem where agency staff are being paid twice and sometimes three times more than permanent staff to do the same job, one which they (the agency staff) often perform with disinterest and indifference, clocking up the hours, topping up the SIPP by another X thousand pounds a week, and switching to a different contract/employer upon the first murmur of trouble.
    In the police force, going sick with stress is the general response to serious investigation. Followed by early retirement on the grounds of ill health. Followed by applying for a job with another force.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    They will do both, Mogg embodies both the supply side right and traditional authoritarian nationalist right and if Sunak and Hunt lose heavily his influence in the party now he is exiled on the backbenches will increase significantly in Opposition.

    For some rightwing Tory members of course Jacob is the Messiah as much as Jezza was ultimately for leftwing Labour members
    I don't think the Tories are going in to opposition, but how does Jacob get on with Hatty in the Palace? Pater William was pro Rudolf Steiner lunacy and so is sister Annunziata, so ... who knows? JRM would be loved by the international media for sure, even more so than John Bercow. He needs to bring out a clothing item that can be worn half-ironically by supporters. Or have a photo taken supposedly without prior arrangement, showing him wearing a monocle.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,435
    Biden himself may sometimes sound like an old school Democrat with his talk of restoring “good union jobs” but he is widely seen as a feeble, confused old man with corruption scandals of his own which are growing more visible by the day. It is imperative now that he pull out of the next presidential race and allow his party to find a new candidate – one who may be a relative unknown on the national stage. The object of this game must be for party politics to recover its nerve and confront the demagoguery which is always ready to exploit hopelessness and rage.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/05/americas-fate-hinges-on-feeble-joe-biden-being-pushed-power/
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited August 2023
    Good evening. Greetings to @MikeSmithson.

    Yes.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,243
    darkage said:

    What is interesting is for how long the government have been penalising motorists without any political comeback. This ULEZ episode feels like one of those moments where the government (and the opposition) pretend to take notice of people's concerns before going going back to business as usual.
    Penalising motorists?! Fuel duty has been frozen since 2011 (i.e. a real terms cut) and was actually reduced by 5p per litre last year. In the same period rail fares have risen by 50%. The Government is spending billions on the A303 and the A428 and a bunch of other roads. Wish they’d start penalising the rest of us like that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,513
    Carnyx said:

    What I really want, thouigh, are Iain M. Banks films - or perhaps also Peter Hamilton ones, esp. the Night Sessions (if only to see a future Edinburgh).
    I wanted to be Hari Seldon when I was a kid.
    Never worked out how to…
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,516

    Penalising motorists?! Fuel duty has been frozen since 2011 (i.e. a real terms cut) and was actually reduced by 5p per litre last year. In the same period rail fares have risen by 50%. The Government is spending billions on the A303 and the A428 and a bunch of other roads. Wish they’d start penalising the rest of us like that.
    In the meantime car insurance is sky rocketing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,513

    Biden himself may sometimes sound like an old school Democrat with his talk of restoring “good union jobs” but he is widely seen as a feeble, confused old man with corruption scandals of his own which are growing more visible by the day…

    That’s the GOP line, sure.
    Largely bollocks.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Was chatting to a tory friend earlier. She has voted tory all her life but will not do so next time.

    However, she wanted to know what Starmer stands for before voting for him. Says she knows nothing about his policies. Otherwise it will be LibDems.

    It's easy to confuse the two halves of this post. The fact that Starmer doesn't ignite much enthusiasm at the moment does NOT mean the Conservatives have a prayer.

    (And the GE campaign will expose Starmer and his views. I know someone who had tea with him and she said he was lovely, funny, and personable.)

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,433
    Miklosvar said:

    MOAR CARS I'd prefer Iain Banks films. I look at the sheer tightness and wit and ingenuity of The Bridge/Feersum Endjinn/Walking On Glass and the self-indulgent over-writing of the Culture stuff and I despair, there's a clue in the length of the things. The low point is probably the Ship Minds trying to be funny in Excession, like PD's least talented comedians on a slow news day.
    I find the Culture books slightly underwhelming. They're clearly more unique, introspective and creative than something like the Polity books, but I enjoy the latter quite a bit more most of the time.

    Look to Windward I enjoyed. Excession, not so much.
  • darkage said:

    The reality is that due to austerity a large part of public sector employment has become intolerable. If you keep telling people they need to do more with less they end up having a breakdown. This isn't people being 'workshy'. This type of misguided thinking has led to the problem where agency staff are being paid twice and sometimes three times more than permanent staff to do the same job, one which they (the agency staff) often perform with disinterest and indifference, clocking up the hours, topping up the SIPP by another X thousand pounds a week, and switching to a different contract/employer upon the first murmur of trouble.
    As I said mental health is real, but not all supposed cases of it are. That doesn't mean that all people off with it are faking, it means some are.

    And the fact some seriously have an issue makes it easier for those who are workshy to fake it.

    Not to mention that faking mental health is an easy thing to do if threatened with disciplinary action.

    I had someone attempt this a few years ago when I had an employee I'd caught stealing. He was caught red handed on CCTV and I did a full by the book investigation. Sent him an invitation to a disciplinary meeting with a copy of all the evidence of his crime, and the morning of the scheduled meeting a relative of his brought a sick note in for "stress" saying he couldn't come to the meeting. Our lawyers said as I'd done everything by the book and had the CCTV etc I had enough to terminate his employment anyway despite him not attending the meeting, so he didn't get his planned six months of sick pay. But in the public sector Police etc who have done wrong often can take this path.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,307
    edited August 2023
    ...
  • Taz said:

    In the meantime car insurance is sky rocketing.
    Not really the government's fault, though.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,031
    Peck said:

    I don't think the Tories are going in to opposition, but how does Jacob get on with Hatty in the Palace? Pater William was pro Rudolf Steiner lunacy and so is sister Annunziata, so ... who knows? JRM would be loved by the international media for sure, even more so than John Bercow. He needs to bring out a clothing item that can be worn half-ironically by supporters. Or have a photo taken supposedly without prior arrangement, showing him wearing a monocle.

    Mogg has to retain his seat first.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    darkage said:

    The reality is that due to austerity a large part of public sector employment has become intolerable. If you keep telling people they need to do more with less they end up having a breakdown. This isn't people being 'workshy'. This type of misguided thinking has led to the problem where agency staff are being paid twice and sometimes three times more than permanent staff to do the same job, one which they (the agency staff) often perform with disinterest and indifference, clocking up the hours, topping up the SIPP by another X thousand pounds a week, and switching to a different contract/employer upon the first murmur of trouble.
    I just logged back in to linkedin to read of a planning officer in a local council being dragged through the civil courts explaining how he had to defend himself from accusations of fraud persued by an aggreived party because he allegedly made an informal assurance that a planning decision would be made at officer level and not referred to a committee (which he denies making).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,513
    .
    kle4 said:

    I find the Culture books slightly underwhelming. They're clearly more unique, introspective and creative than something like the Polity books, but I enjoy the latter quite a bit more most of the time.

    Look to Windward I enjoyed. Excession, not so much.
    The Culture books are great - though I guess they’re starting to date a bit.
    But the exploration of the futility of human endeavour in an age of hyper intelligent machines really hasn’t.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Heathener said:

    Was chatting to a tory friend earlier. She has voted tory all her life but will not do so next time.

    However, she wanted to know what Starmer stands for before voting for him. Says she knows nothing about his policies. Otherwise it will be LibDems.

    It's easy to confuse the two halves of this post. The fact that Starmer doesn't ignite much enthusiasm at the moment does NOT mean the Conservatives have a prayer.

    (And the GE campaign will expose Starmer and his views. I know someone who had tea with him and she said he was lovely, funny, and personable.)

    Having tea with him is neither here nor there, because GE campaign will not be equivalent to all the electorate having tea with him. It'll be more of the same of his public persona which is vacuous, weak and charmless. Like Sunak.
  • Heathener said:

    Was chatting to a tory friend earlier. She has voted tory all her life but will not do so next time.

    However, she wanted to know what Starmer stands for before voting for him. Says she knows nothing about his policies. Otherwise it will be LibDems.

    It's easy to confuse the two halves of this post. The fact that Starmer doesn't ignite much enthusiasm at the moment does NOT mean the Conservatives have a prayer.

    (And the GE campaign will expose Starmer and his views. I know someone who had tea with him and she said he was lovely, funny, and personable.)

    Once the contest boils down to Starmer vs. Sunak head to head, Starmer wins. Not by being good, but by being better than his opponent. Partly because people with the sense not to pay day-to-day attention haven't clocked quite how bad Sunak is at politics. The nanosecond after being criticised, he goes whiny. The public aren't going to like that.
  • Penalising motorists?! Fuel duty has been frozen since 2011 (i.e. a real terms cut) and was actually reduced by 5p per litre last year. In the same period rail fares have risen by 50%. The Government is spending billions on the A303 and the A428 and a bunch of other roads. Wish they’d start penalising the rest of us like that.
    Typical ungrateful attitude.

    Fuel duty is a tax on fuel. Train fares are subsidised not taxed.

    90% of transportation miles is on roads, yet the Government is spending billions on roads as you said but hundreds of billions on rail infrastructure with the likes of HS2 and crossrail.

    Yes I wish we'd be penalised like subsidised rail travellers. 🤦‍♂️
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,098
    edited August 2023

    Not really the government's fault, though.
    Car insurance is high because of the number of collisions and injuries caused by drivers.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited August 2023
    Trump has posted to Truth Social saying “IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I’M COMING AFTER YOU!” (Capitalisation in the original.)

    Prosecutors believe there's a risk this threat could have a chilling effect on witnesses (no sh*t!), and they're seeking an order to limit what advance evidence supplied to the defence team the defence can release publicly. That seems quite a mild response. Indeed would it even stop Trump from repeatedly posting the same message as often as he likes?

    Hopefully Trump will be made to appear before the judge to explain himself. Hopefully too the judge will exercise some leadership and not just let the prosecution make the case.

    Or...has an Ezra Pound solution appeared on the horizon?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085

    Once the contest boils down to Starmer vs. Sunak head to head, Starmer wins. Not by being good, but by being better than his opponent. Partly because people with the sense not to pay day-to-day attention haven't clocked quite how bad Sunak is at politics. The nanosecond after being criticised, he goes whiny. The public aren't going to like that.
    Yes this is all very true.

    Same friend, despite being a tory, thinks Sunak is awful. She really dislikes him and some of those around him.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Miklosvar said:

    Having tea with him is neither here nor there, because GE campaign will not be equivalent to all the electorate having tea with him. It'll be more of the same of his public persona which is vacuous, weak and charmless. Like Sunak.
    Not so sure you're right about this.

    Personality and charisma in a one-to-one (there were four of them) often translates to personality amongst larger numbers and on television too.

    I think Starmer's real problem is lack of exposure which, obviously, will change.

    Like Stuart below, whilst I don't think Starmer is ever going to set the world alight, he is likely to win hands down against Sunak.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    Eabhal said:

    Car insurance is high because of the number of collisions and injuries caused by drivers.
    And because it's run by a cartel.

    Besides, the net expected payoff is always negative. Insurance is mostly a scam and they love stories about flood damage, wind damage, any kind of damage you've got, with big pictures on the front pages. I never insure anything except when legally obliged.
  • Once the contest boils down to Starmer vs. Sunak head to head, Starmer wins. Not by being good, but by being better than his opponent. Partly because people with the sense not to pay day-to-day attention haven't clocked quite how bad Sunak is at politics. The nanosecond after being criticised, he goes whiny. The public aren't going to like that.
    Once the contest boils down to Starmer Vs Sunak, Starmer wins.

    Not because Starmer is better than Sunak.

    But because vacuous opposition leader who is not perceived as a threat beats vacuous Prime Minister who leads an unpopular government.

    Starmer is going to win by default.
  • Peck said:

    Trump has posted to Truth Social saying “IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I’M COMING AFTER YOU!” (Capitalisation in the original.)

    Prosecutors believe there's a risk this threat could have a chilling effect on witnesses (no sh*t!), and they're seeking an order to limit what advance evidence supplied to the defence team the defence can release publicly. That seems quite a mild response. Indeed would it even stop Trump from repeatedly posting the same message as often as he likes?

    Hopefully Trump will be made to appear before the judge to explain himself. Hopefully too the judge will exercise some leadership and not just let the prosecution make the case.

    Or...has an Ezra Pound solution appeared on the horizon?

    If he "won" the 2020 election, he is NOT eligible to run for a "third" term in 2024.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,098
    edited August 2023

    Typical ungrateful attitude.

    Fuel duty is a tax on fuel. Train fares are subsidised not taxed.

    90% of transportation miles is on roads, yet the Government is spending billions on roads as you said but hundreds of billions on rail infrastructure with the likes of HS2 and crossrail.

    Yes I wish we'd be penalised like subsidised rail travellers. 🤦‍♂️
    HS2 cost (phase 1 and 2a): £50 billion

    Freeze on fuel duty cost (so far): £80 billion

    We need to invest to grow.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    y

    As I said mental health is real, but not all supposed cases of it are. That doesn't mean that all people off with it are faking, it means some are.

    And the fact some seriously have an issue makes it easier for those who are workshy to fake it.

    Not to mention that faking mental health is an easy thing to do if threatened with disciplinary action.

    I had someone attempt this a few years ago when I had an employee I'd caught stealing. He was caught red handed on CCTV and I did a full by the book investigation. Sent him an invitation to a disciplinary meeting with a copy of all the evidence of his crime, and the morning of the scheduled meeting a relative of his brought a sick note in for "stress" saying he couldn't come to the meeting. Our lawyers said as I'd done everything by the book and had the CCTV etc I had enough to terminate his employment anyway despite him not attending the meeting, so he didn't get his planned six months of sick pay. But in the public sector Police etc who have done wrong often can take this path.
    But isn't that just life? some people are dishonest and will keep coming up with excuses, if not stress it will be something else.

    I took a few weeks off work with stress a couple of years ago. I tried to resign or offered to take it as 'unpaid special leave' but I was encouraged to stay and go on sick leave. I was beseiged with guilt about it at the time - telling myself that I was just skiving - but the reality is that I needed to take time off to be able to focus and get stuff done on my return. I think it is better that people have this opportunity than the past when they were just told to bluster their way through it. I know of very bad examples of people working through burnout and stress and ending up with severe psychological problems resulting in them permanently leaving the workplace.

  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Typical ungrateful attitude.

    Fuel duty is a tax on fuel. Train fares are subsidised not taxed.

    90% of transportation miles is on roads, yet the Government is spending billions on roads as you said but hundreds of billions on rail infrastructure with the likes of HS2 and crossrail.

    Yes I wish we'd be penalised like subsidised rail travellers. 🤦‍♂️
    What's the expenditure meant to be a measure of? I spend a fortune on my teeth every year, and zero - in direct cash outlay - on my cardiovascular system and brain. What conclusions follow from that?
  • .
    Eabhal said:

    HS2 cost (phase 1 and 2a): £50 billion

    Freeze on fuel duty cost (so far): £80 billion

    We need to invest to grow.
    Freeze on fuel duty hasn't "cost" a single penny.

    Fuel duty has generated tens of billions in taxation. Not one penny on tax has been spend on finding a "freeze"

    What has cost money is the billions spent annually subsidising (not taxing) rail fares.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,098

    .

    Freeze on fuel duty hasn't "cost" a single penny.

    Fuel duty has generated tens of billions in taxation. Not one penny on tax has been spend on finding a "freeze"

    What has cost money is the billions spent annually subsidising (not taxing) rail fares.
    Good to see you in Edinburgh btw! Hope you're enjoying it, despite the crowds.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1687785577754537984?t=xdYiN-wkZuCyawa90KSg9Q&s=19
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,207
    Carnyx said:

    What I really want, thouigh, are...perhaps also Peter Hamilton ones, esp. the Night Sessions (if only to see a future Edinburgh).

    You may be confusing the "Night's Dawn" trilogy by Peter F Hamilton with "The Night Sessions", a book by Ken Macleod. The former is zombies in space, the latter is political murders in a post-independence Scotland.

    SF novels set in a near-future independent Scotland were quite popular a few years back: Macleod did at least two, and so did Stross. They got overtaken by events, but I enjoyed all of them, being spy- or detective- fiction in a recognisable SF setting: 'orrible Scottish murr-ders and space elevators.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,848
    edited August 2023
    Heathener said:

    Was chatting to a tory friend earlier. She has voted tory all her life but will not do so next time.

    However, she wanted to know what Starmer stands for before voting for him. Says she knows nothing about his policies. Otherwise it will be LibDems.

    It's easy to confuse the two halves of this post. The fact that Starmer doesn't ignite much enthusiasm at the moment does NOT mean the Conservatives have a prayer.

    (And the GE campaign will expose Starmer and his views. I know someone who had tea with him and she said he was lovely, funny, and personable.)

    I think it’s quite possible Starmer pleasantly surprises people in an election campaign. Expectations are so low, largely because Starmer has done too little for fear of scaring the horses, that they may well warm to him.

    Opposite risk for Sunak. I really don’t think voters have quite clocked how underwhelming he is yet,
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    .

    Freeze on fuel duty hasn't "cost" a single penny.

    Fuel duty has generated tens of billions in taxation. Not one penny on tax has been spend on finding a "freeze"

    What has cost money is the billions spent annually subsidising (not taxing) rail fares.
    Obviously the roads need to be managed, repaired, policed etc... it all has to be funded.


  • Once the contest boils down to Starmer Vs Sunak, Starmer wins.

    Not because Starmer is better than Sunak.

    But because vacuous opposition leader who is not perceived as a threat beats vacuous Prime Minister who leads an unpopular government.

    Starmer is going to win by default.
    Have to say that's at least a bit graceless.

    If Starmer had done nothing but reclaim the Labour party back from Corbyn and co, he would have rendered the nation a considerable service. He may only have given them enough rope to hang themselves, but that's a job largely done.

    The unacceptable bits of the 2019 Conservatives, the people only swallowable because the alternative was even worse... A lot of them are still hanging around.

    Starmer will win by default, sure. And it's to the eternal shame of this generation of Conservatives that they have screwed up this badly. But there's more to Starmer than that, even if you don't like him.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,207

    If he "won" the 2020 election, he is NOT eligible to run for a "third" term in 2024.
    Yes. You know how that sounded really good in your head? Well... :(
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited August 2023
    viewcode said:

    You may be confusing the "Night's Dawn" trilogy by Peter F Hamilton with "The Night Sessions", a book by Ken Macleod. The former is zombies in space, the latter is political murders in a post-independence Scotland.

    SF novels set in a near-future independent Scotland were quite popular a few years back: Macleod did at least two, and so did Stross. They got overtaken by events, but I enjoyed all of them, being spy- or detective- fiction in a recognisable SF setting: 'orrible Scottish murr-ders and space elevators.
    Yes! Sorry for cerebral eructation. Macleod's is the one I am thinking of.
  • TimS said:

    The trouble is we’re not very good at distinguishing between handouts that encourage economic growth, and handouts that discourage it.

    Putting more money in the pockets of poor people means they spend more in the economy, either as consumers or entrepreneurs, and advances the
    opportunities for growth. So does spending money on infrastructure, health and education so long as it’s efficiently deployed.

    Spending money on people who will just save it, or on unproductive activities that could and should be more efficient and automated if not run by government, and on white elephants, is value destroying.

    But we tend to lump both into the same ideological category.
    Depends on how you put that extra money in the pockets of poor people.

    Higher welfare payments wont help the economy but lower employment taxes on the low paid will.

    If Starmer is looking for a progressive idea then cutting NI on the low paid would be a good idea.

    It would have the additional advantage of busting the lie that national insurance funds the NHS, pensions and welfare state.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,488
    edited August 2023

    If he "won" the 2020 election, he is NOT eligible to run for a "third" term in 2024.
    No, according to the 22nd amendment, he's not allowed to be elected three times, but there's nothing to stop him running as many times as he wants.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,904

    Depends on how you put that extra money in the pockets of poor people.

    Higher welfare payments wont help the economy but lower employment taxes on the low paid will.

    If Starmer is looking for a progressive idea then cutting NI on the low paid would be a good idea.

    It would have the additional advantage of busting the lie that national insurance funds the NHS, pensions and welfare state.
    To an extent it does, NI contributions or credits are required to claim the state pension and you cannot get JSA allowance now without NI contributions otherwise if you don't have enough savings you have to claim UC.

    Indeed in most western nations most unemployment benefits, pensions and indeed healthcare too are funded by insurance
  • Eabhal said:

    HS2 cost (phase 1 and 2a): £50 billion

    Freeze on fuel duty cost (so far): £80 billion

    We need to invest to grow.
    You must hate hybrid and electrical cars taking away all that fuel duty income for the government to 'invest'.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Westminster voting intention:
    Sir Kid Starver fans please explain

    LAB: 40% (-2)
    CON: 26% (+1)
    LDEM: 10% (-1)
    REF: 10% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @OpiniumResearch, 02 - 04 Aug
  • HYUFD said:

    To an extent it does, NI contributions or credits are required to claim the state pension and you cannot get JSA allowance now without NI contributions otherwise if you don't have enough savings you have to claim UC.

    Indeed in most western nations most unemployment benefits, pensions and indeed healthcare too are funded by insurance
    That's NI being used as a gateway, or rather restriction, rather than funding mechanism.

    What we've had is politicians from Brown to Sunak pretending that a NI rise is funding the NHS or social care whilst funding general government expenditure or tax cuts elsewhere.
  • Westminster voting intention:
    Sir Kid Starver fans please explain

    LAB: 40% (-2)
    CON: 26% (+1)
    LDEM: 10% (-1)
    REF: 10% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @OpiniumResearch, 02 - 04 Aug

    Greens fully 33 points behind Labour - BJO fans please explain.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    HYUFD said:

    To an extent it does, NI contributions or credits are required to claim the state pension and you cannot get JSA allowance now without NI contributions otherwise if you don't have enough savings you have to claim UC.

    Indeed in most western nations most unemployment benefits, pensions and indeed healthcare too are funded by insurance
    But it's not really "insurance", is NI?

    Money is money even if you call it UC rather than JSA or pension benefit rather than State Pension.
  • It was Saturday night, I guess that makes it all right to post the latest Opinium;

    Labour lead by 14 in this week's Opinium / @ObserverUK poll

    Labour 40% (-2)
    Conservatives 26% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (-1)
    Reform UK 10% (n/c)
    Greens 7% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1687901984701960192

    But we also asked whether you would support/oppose an LTN in a few specific locations including 'in the street I live on'. Conservative voters are narrowly opposed to LTNs in principle but a plurality wouldn't mind one on their own street
  • Have to say that's at least a bit graceless.

    If Starmer had done nothing but reclaim the Labour party back from Corbyn and co, he would have rendered the nation a considerable service. He may only have given them enough rope to hang themselves, but that's a job largely done.

    The unacceptable bits of the 2019 Conservatives, the people only swallowable because the alternative was even worse... A lot of them are still hanging around.

    Starmer will win by default, sure. And it's to the eternal shame of this generation of Conservatives that they have screwed up this badly. But there's more to Starmer than that, even if you don't like him.
    It would have been interesting to see how Starmer would have developed Labour's policies and strategy if the Conservatives hadn't destroyed themselves with the parties and sleaze.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,098
    edited August 2023

    You must hate hybrid and electrical cars taking away all that fuel duty income for the government to 'invest'.
    No, it's an interesting question. A Pigou tax that has served it's purpose. I think it should be replaced by axle load levy to counter road wear and collisions, or charges for entering built up areas to tackle congestion.

    Despite allegations of "anti-car zealot", I think cars will always be absolutely essential for at least 25% of the population, and for the time being a much larger proportion than that.

    I think motoring should be significantly cheaper for rural and disabled people. It would help balance the economy. For those 80% of us who live in urban areas, and the 71% of all journeys which are under 5 miles, public transport, walking or cycling should be the obvious and default option.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,904
    edited August 2023

    It was Saturday night, I guess that makes it all right to post the latest Opinium;

    Labour lead by 14 in this week's Opinium / @ObserverUK poll

    Labour 40% (-2)
    Conservatives 26% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (-1)
    Reform UK 10% (n/c)
    Greens 7% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1687901984701960192

    But we also asked whether you would support/oppose an LTN in a few specific locations including 'in the street I live on'. Conservative voters are narrowly opposed to LTNs in principle but a plurality wouldn't mind one on their own street

    Starmer now doing no better than Corbyn in 2017 but massive swing from Conservatives to RefUK since 2019 on that poll
  • It was Saturday night, I guess that makes it all right to post the latest Opinium;

    Labour lead by 14 in this week's Opinium / @ObserverUK poll

    Labour 40% (-2)
    Conservatives 26% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (-1)
    Reform UK 10% (n/c)
    Greens 7% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1687901984701960192

    But we also asked whether you would support/oppose an LTN in a few specific locations including 'in the street I live on'. Conservative voters are narrowly opposed to LTNs in principle but a plurality wouldn't mind one on their own street

    Redbridge got rid of its trial LTNs in 2020 (one in Ilford North, one in Ilford South) after only a few weeks....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,904
    Carnyx said:

    But it's not really "insurance", is NI?

    Money is money even if you call it UC rather than JSA or pension benefit rather than State Pension.
    Not if you can't claim it unless you have paid in for it, as you can't claim JSA now without NI contributions
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,904

    That's NI being used as a gateway, or rather restriction, rather than funding mechanism.

    What we've had is politicians from Brown to Sunak pretending that a NI rise is funding the NHS or social care whilst funding general government expenditure or tax cuts elsewhere.
    Yes. its funds should be ringfenced
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,612

    In the police force, going sick with stress is the general response to serious investigation. Followed by early retirement on the grounds of ill health. Followed by applying for a job with another force.
    Round here, being moved to Station Redacted is how you know a member of the police is at the very least 'in the bad books'.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Greens fully 33 points behind Labour - BJO fans please explain.
    Sir Kid Starver is matching Corbyn 2017 vote share.

    At least his red Tory Kid Starving fans still love him
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,433

    In the police force, going sick with stress is the general response to serious investigation. Followed by early retirement on the grounds of ill health. Followed by applying for a job with another force.
    Not just police of course, though of particular concern with them. Why do doctors go along with obvious sham diagnoses?
  • Sir Kid Starver is matching Corbyn 2017 vote share.

    At least his red Tory Kid Starving fans still love him
    What's this "Kid Starver" bollocks?
  • Eabhal said:

    No, it's an interesting question. A Pigou tax that has served it's purpose. I think it should be replaced by axle load, or charges for entering built up areas.

    Despite allegations of "anti-car zealot", I think cars will always be absolutely essential for at least 25% of the population, and for the time being a much larger proportion than that.

    I think motoring should significantly cheaper for rural and disabled people. It would help balance the economy. For those 80% of us who live in urban areas, and the 71% of all journeys which are under 5 miles, public transport, walking or cycling should be the obvious and default option.
    Most of my journeys are under five miles but anything above a mile is vastly more quicker, flexible, convenient, comfortable, safer and cheaper than by an alternative means.
  • viewcode said:

    You may be confusing the "Night's Dawn" trilogy by Peter F Hamilton with "The Night Sessions", a book by Ken Macleod. The former is zombies in space, the latter is political murders in a post-independence Scotland.

    SF novels set in a near-future independent Scotland were quite popular a few years back: Macleod did at least two, and so did Stross. They got overtaken by events, but I enjoyed all of them, being spy- or detective- fiction in a recognisable SF setting: 'orrible Scottish murr-ders and space elevators.
    Really like all the authors being mentioned. Macleod and Hamilton especially. Alsovworthy of mention the space archaeology stuff by Jack Mcdevitt
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,612
    darkage said:

    The reality is that due to austerity a large part of public sector employment has become intolerable. If you keep telling people they need to do more with less they end up having a breakdown. This isn't people being 'workshy'. This type of misguided thinking has led to the problem where agency staff are being paid twice and sometimes three times more than permanent staff to do the same job, one which they (the agency staff) often perform with disinterest and indifference, clocking up the hours, topping up the SIPP by another X thousand pounds a week, and switching to a different contract/employer upon the first murmur of trouble.
    I was having a chat this week with a relatively senior public sector worker. We were both frazzled but working through it. But both expressed deep sadness that we just *knew* how good we could make things with just a *little* more resource. As it is - running everything on fumes, pulling more late nights, burning out .... it's not great.

    Her bit of the world in particular - roughly 10x the workload since 2010, and zero increase in staff or budget.

    Profit!... in some way.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,813

    It was Saturday night, I guess that makes it all right to post the latest Opinium;

    Labour lead by 14 in this week's Opinium / @ObserverUK poll

    Labour 40% (-2)
    Conservatives 26% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (-1)
    Reform UK 10% (n/c)
    Greens 7% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1687901984701960192

    But we also asked whether you would support/oppose an LTN in a few specific locations including 'in the street I live on'. Conservative voters are narrowly opposed to LTNs in principle but a plurality wouldn't mind one on their own street

    Tories not hit 30% in a poll for nearly a month.
    (this will be the kiss of death for that factoid).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,123
    ohnotnow said:

    Round here, being moved to Station Redacted is how you know a member of the police is at the very least 'in the bad books'.

    Met Inspector: Well then, you're packed already. Nicholas, we're offering you a smashing position with a delightful cottage in a lovely little place that has I think has won Village of the Year...I don't know how many times. It'll be good for you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,433
    edited August 2023

    Really like all the authors being mentioned. Macleod and Hamilton especially. Alsovworthy of mention the space archaeology stuff by Jack Mcdevitt
    I love most of the Academy series. Deepsix, Chindi, The Long Sunset, very good. Felt reflective without being navel gazing.

    Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Memory is out in paperback now, the first two (of Time, and of Ruin) were very good, especially Children of Time.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Not if you can't claim it unless you have paid in for it, as you can't claim JSA now without NI contributions
    Absolutely and utterly wrong.

    The fuinding doesn't correspond to the cost. Unlike a true insurance system.

    Edit: as has already been pointed out tonight, it is mertely a gatekeeper. The true cost of the benefits is irrelevant under such a system, in a way that an insyrance system isn't.

    Come now - you've just admitted that NI isn't ringfenced. That is completely inconsistent with your argument.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,098

    Most of my journeys are under five miles but anything above a mile is vastly more quicker, flexible, convenient, comfortable, safer and cheaper than by an alternative means.
    Which is what I want to fix.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,858
    Eabhal said:

    No, it's an interesting question. A Pigou tax that has served it's purpose. I think it should be replaced by axle load levy to counter road wear and collisions, or charges for entering built up areas to tackle congestion.

    Despite allegations of "anti-car zealot", I think cars will always be absolutely essential for at least 25% of the population, and for the time being a much larger proportion than that.

    I think motoring should be significantly cheaper for rural and disabled people. It would help balance the economy. For those 80% of us who live in urban areas, and the 71% of all journeys which are under 5 miles, public transport, walking or cycling should be the obvious and default option.
    The principle should be an easy one IMO. A road usage charge applies where there is viable public transport on that route. The charge subsidises the public transport option, such that that it is substantially cheaper than the car option.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,433
    edited August 2023
    I was looking up Jack McDevitt novels and apparently there's one called Eternity Road, where a post apocalyptic society 1700 years in the future are trying to find out information about the legendary 'Roadmakers', as the magnificent roads still covering the landscape are nearly all that is left of them (us).

    Clearly not set in Britain, as I don't think our roads would last 4 years without maintenance, if local election leaflets are anything to go by.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,202
    edited August 2023
    ...

    Westminster voting intention:
    Sir Kid Starver fans please explain

    LAB: 40% (-2)
    CON: 26% (+1)
    LDEM: 10% (-1)
    REF: 10% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @OpiniumResearch, 02 - 04 Aug

    Not a fan of Sir Beer Korma, but perhaps ULEZ and Opinium swingback?

    I note you have ignored the polls released earlier with Labour still in the late teens and early 20s.

    Starmer will lose the next election but by about sixty seats less than your boy Corbyn did and would, were he still leader. Voters no longer associate themselves with the centre, left of centre or barking mad Corbyn left. It's Tory right or barking mad Conservative now, take your pick.

    Tory majority back at 9/1. Take a punt.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,290
    Lab 40%
    Con 26%
    LD 10%
    ReformUK 10%
    Greens 7%

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1687901984701960192
  • TresTres Posts: 2,813
    edited August 2023
    I see many of the world's top triathletes have had to pull out of upcoming competitions because the sea water in Sunderland has made them all ill.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/05/investigation-after-57-world-triathlon-championship-swimmers-fall-sick-and-get-diarrhoea-in-sunderland-race
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    kle4 said:

    I was looking up Jack McDevitt novels and apparently there's one called Eternity Road, where a post apocalyptic society 1700 years in the future are trying to find out information about the legendary 'Roadmakers', as the magnificent roads still covering the landscape are nearly all that is left of them (us).

    Clearly not set in Britain, as I don't think our roads would last 4 years without maintenance, if local election leaflets are anything to go by.

    There's something of that also, only for Roman roads, in the Bernard Cornwell novels set in Britain (etc) in the Dark Ages, er pardon me the post-Roman early Mediaeval period.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,098
    Carnyx said:

    Absolutely and utterly wrong.

    The fuinding doesn't correspond to the cost. Unlike a true insurance system.

    Edit: as has already been pointed out tonight, it is mertely a gatekeeper. The true cost of the benefits is irrelevant under such a system, in a way that an insyrance system isn't.

    Come now - you've just admitted that NI isn't ringfenced. That is completely inconsistent with your argument.
    For the simple reason that no parliament can compel another.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,580

    It was Saturday night, I guess that makes it all right to post the latest Opinium;

    Labour lead by 14 in this week's Opinium / @ObserverUK poll

    Labour 40% (-2)
    Conservatives 26% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (-1)
    Reform UK 10% (n/c)
    Greens 7% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1687901984701960192

    But we also asked whether you would support/oppose an LTN in a few specific locations including 'in the street I live on'. Conservative voters are narrowly opposed to LTNs in principle but a plurality wouldn't mind one on their own street

    It goes without saying that we don't want other people driving down our street. We just want to retain the freedom to drive down their street.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,098
    FF43 said:

    The principle should be an easy one IMO. A road usage charge applies where there is viable public transport on that route. The charge subsidises the public transport option, such that that it is substantially cheaper than the car option.
    Or it should be based on the location of the registered keeper (or similar). We already collect data on accessibility to services with measures like SIMD, for example.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,202
    Andy_JS said:
    How many times will this "Labour in big trouble" poll be posted tonght I wonder?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,098

    It goes without saying that we don't want other people driving down our street. We just want to retain the freedom to drive down their street.
    This is the LTN debate in a nutshell.

  • Met Inspector: Well then, you're packed already. Nicholas, we're offering you a smashing position with a delightful cottage in a lovely little place that has I think has won Village of the Year...I don't know how many times. It'll be good for you.
    "Here come The Fuzz!"
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,007
    Leon said:

    Go Scotland!

    Superh comeback

    They are a quality side - better than England

    France 2nd team...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,433

    How many times will this "Labour in big trouble" poll be posted tonght I wonder?
    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1687901984701960192
  • kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1687901984701960192
    Broken, sleazy Labour on the slide?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,913
    edited August 2023
    Tres said:

    There was a movie of Complicity and a TV series of Crow Road.
    I thought the TV series of Crow Road was very good and probably worth a re-watch.

    Not so convinced by Complicity (though I didn't think the book was that great either).


    I believe there was also a radio series of Espedair Street. Music "by" Iain Banks, so possibly a bit self-indulgent.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,007
    Heathener said:

    Was chatting to a tory friend earlier. She has voted tory all her life but will not do so next time.

    However, she wanted to know what Starmer stands for before voting for him. Says she knows nothing about his policies. Otherwise it will be LibDems.

    It's easy to confuse the two halves of this post. The fact that Starmer doesn't ignite much enthusiasm at the moment does NOT mean the Conservatives have a prayer.

    (And the GE campaign will expose Starmer and his views. I know someone who had tea with him and she said he was lovely, funny, and personable.)

    How convenient you have such a malleable Tory friend.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,207

    Really like all the authors being mentioned. Macleod and Hamilton especially. Alsovworthy of mention the space archaeology stuff by Jack Mcdevitt
    I didn't know anybody else had read the McDevitt stuff. I liked his Priscilla Hutchins/Academy series, although the publishers never bothered to give the books a consistent size/design, so they look weird on the shelf. Half of the ones I had were US mass-market paperbacks with the yellow edges from Ace, some were British from Voyager, then other bits and bobs. My urge to completism did not kick in for the Alex Benedict series, so I have two or three and the others I got from the library
This discussion has been closed.