FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
As a parent of young children, I agree on the car seats. Having them out of the car is a pain as they're quite large and even with isofix etc they take a few minutes to install.
But not everyone has young children. Before we had children, we lived in a small city and the car went out perhaps 1-2 times/week at weekends. Possessions in the car were a few sweets and crossword books for longer journeys, tool kit, binoculars and a bird book. Most of the time none of those needed to be in there. A car on demand would have been perfectly fine of us then. Not now, but then. Probably fine in another 7-8 years, too, when the youngest can have a tiny lightweight booster and the others probably none.
So, I agree. Right now, I want my own car on the drive with all the kid stuff in it. But that will probably only be important for 10-12 years of my life, fewer years if I had fewer children. If others are anything like me - which they may not be, of course - then that's a minority of use cases.
Whether Leon's prediction comes to pass, outside big cities with parking issues, depends on costs versus owning a car.
Also, don't forget it's not all about money but also status: possessing your own ride is an expression of your success, identity and independence.
That isn't going to go anywhere.
Uber Platinum. Just a matter of time.
Uber Luxury exists already.
I use it a lot.
Does a standard, hailed uber come with a kid's reverse facing booster base & seat in the boot which they'll fit without fuss for a hail ?
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Or even, why bother at all? We get ours cleaned about once every six months.
If posession of a car is a sign of having, in some sense, made it, having it as a source of pride to be cossetted is sensible. If it's a machine for getting around in (especially now the bodywork quality lasts better), why bother?
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
You're doing it again. Not thinking of what the future may bring. I covered the issues you brought up before (child seat and going to the dump). Let's cover another you have just brought up; music. A few years ago that would have been an issue. You would have had to take your own CDs rather than leaving them in your car. Not now. All on the phone. What else may change in the FUTURE. Note we are talking about the FUTURE. So programmable seats. My car already has that. If it really bugs you it is not inconceivable you could change the colour of the car. I can already change the colour of the lighting in my car. How do you know we can't some time in the future get a car to you within minutes and one that hasn't got a flat battery or flat tyre?
As far as it being a met elite fantasy, well I live in a village with no bus service and a station a mile away so I drive a car everywhere except when going to London, but I can imagine a different future, even if it may not happen.
If in the future a better alternative is invented, then yes it may change.
Taxis are not a better alternative. They already exist, and people don't like them and don't use them by and large. Except in inner cities, or when inebriated, or in other very limited circumstances.
Taxis becoming driverless isn't going to change that fact.
Yes I agree with that and I don't think that is what either @leon or I are arguing. It has to be something better than just a driverless taxi.
I gave my example. We have two cars. We don't need two but keep two for the occasional inconvenience of not having a spare car. Financially it makes no sense for us to have the 2nd car, but we don't give it up. Things will have to change a lot for us to do that and a driverless taxis alone is not the answer.
But that is not what either @leon or I are arguing. We are looking into a possible future where the convenience is so overwhelming that owning a car becomes equivalent to keeping a horse for personal transport. Nice to have if you are into cars/horses but less convenient than the alternative.
That's exactly what Leon is saying. That driverless taxis will replace cars because well actually he's got no reasons why, he's just saying its the case and insulting anyone who disagrees with him.
Taxis already exist. Whether they're driverless or not, they're inconvenient and not of interest to all but a tiny minority. Making taxis driverless isn't going to change that fact.
You stupid, dung-eating regional oik, the benefit of a society without private cars will be to society as a whole, more than the individual. Towns and cities will be transformed, all the horrible concrete and tarmac and infrastructure at the moment dedicated to cars will be freed up for parks and gardens and cycleways and trees and life and cafes and expensive oyster-serving pubs
But I bet it will benefit the individual as well: owning a car is a hassle, you have to clean and maintain it, you have to pay tons for it, you gotta fill it up, insure it, MOT it, blah blah - and there is always the chance you will mow someone down in it, or get killed in it yourself by some other terrible human driver
That will all go. ALL of it. In the end we will wonder why we never did it before and the Age of the Car will be seen as an aberration
And you will get around just as fast: by autonomous e-cars. Indeed, you will likely get about faster as these machines will not get stuck in traffic jams: autonomous e-traffic will be all be smoothed out by a central computer so there is zero congestion, like wot they have in Singapore now
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
I can remember an old bloke who used to do this every week in our street. The only problem for the Tories is that it was in the 1980s and I can't remember seeing anyone do it since then.
This debate all feels very smoking ban to me. We'll look back at it and chuckle. The Dutch already are.
The difference is that it is the anti-car fanatics like yourself that are the ones who are fighting progress here though.
Just as clean air in buildings with a smoking ban has been widely adopted and successful, clean air on the streets with electric vehicles driving down them is the future too.
Not some naïve daydreams of people clinging to the past delusions that cars are polluting, who can't comprehend that 90% of powered transportation is via cars not public transportation - whether you're talking in England, or in Germany.
I note that that chart doesn't actually include any units. Is it distance or trips, and what is the long distance vs short distance, or rural vs urban, variation?
I think you are missing that private vehicles are an inefficient and sub-optimal form of transport in urban settings. Which is why their use will need to reduce.
Every traffic jam I have ever seen consists of motor vehicles holding up other motor vehicles.
That being said, those blinkered city dwellers who don't understand the politics of the car in the suburbs and rural areas are missing the point.
Rishi is trying to sure up his base. His base largely drive cars.
This is the first good bit of political nous I've seen since his not buckling to strikes.
Yes. It is shoring up his base. It is a strategy for holding Uxbridge.
But it is not a strategy for recovering from Lab 48%, Con 25%. It is not a strategy for regaining councils in the South. The notion that Oxford is suddenly going to start voting Conservative because Rishi doesn't like LTNs is for the Xs*. So is the notion that Tiverton & Honiton is going to swing back to Rishi because he doesn't like 20mph limits.
The Conservatives are going to be reduced to a rump of the East Coast, Outer Suburbiton, Continuity Red Wall and General Sir Bufton Tufton (Rtd) at the next election. This is a policy that appeals to all those demographics. It is not a policy that will win back the 48% who say they're going to vote for Starmer.
* formerly known as birds
It is well known that my view of Rishi is that he is an electoral dud.
He isn't going to come anywhere near winning an election.
But the pro car message gives him, perhaps, 5% more than 25% - it converts the likes of my father, proud driver and car owner, a reason to vote for someone who he considers to the left of Tony Blair economically.
It gives the Tories back some don't knows.
Interestingly, the only real, albeit small, victories for the Blue meanies in the past few months have been car related. Cambridge council by election, and Uxbridge. Oxford could well surprise.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Or even, why bother at all? We get ours cleaned about once every six months.
If posession of a car is a sign of having, in some sense, made it, having it as a source of pride to be cossetted is sensible. If it's a machine for getting around in (especially now the bodywork quality lasts better), why bother?
Wow. It must be filthy!
Not really. It sits outside and there's enough rain to wash the dust off.
The inside is another matter, mostly due to tweenagers eating biscuits.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
It's quite possibly a prescription for the future in large cities, which house a significant and growing proportion of the world's population. Even in suburbanised Britain London is about 15% of the population - add similarly built up zones of the other major cities plus well serviced towns like Oxford and Cambridge, Brighton, Bath etc and it's a decent number of people who could be living like that. Then consider somewhere like Japan where almost everyone lives in a city and people rarely go on long drives, and it makes some sense.
For the miniscule minority who live in cities, maybe.
Most Britons live in towns, not cities though.
Are you quite sure that only a "miniscule minority" live in cities? Have you got the figures? Doesn't match what I can find.
Source: ONS England and Wales figures.
9.0 million live in London. 8.0 million live in any other city combined other than London.
English people overwhelming live in towns, not that you'd know it from how some on this website think and act.
So you accept that you're wrong. 17 million isn't a miniscule minority by any reasonable definition of 'miniscule'.
No but 2/3 of the English and Welsh population live in towns and villages not cities so Bart does have a point there
However anything including a village or a rural area can support alternatives eg a car club, or a stop on a bus route. Never mind the many villages with railway stations.
Choice needs to be husbanded and made convenient. If done correctly, the 13 mile Llandudno -> Bets-y-Coed cycle route should be about an hour each way, depending on traffic, and far less time to the villages en route.
Post Beeching probably less than 10% of villages have railway stations, buses are often every hour at best in rural areas
it depends on the area. there are a lot of places where there's no bus services at all. for where there is a bus service you may find 2 hourly not uncommon. but that's mostly during the day, if you're trying to go anywhere for the evening or on a sunday there's no bus services at all. There's also no desire in both local and national government to spend the money to ensure that these places have a decent bus service because it doesn't win enough votes.
Which both emphasise my point.
I make it 2500 railway stations plus heritage lines plus systems such as metro or light rail. I have a light rail station just under 2 miles away which is 12-14 minutes on a bicycle, where previously I had no station for 30 years until the 1990s. I can either take the hack-bike and park it at the station, or (if and when I get one) take a Brompton and take it with me, or take the car.
I'd agree that approx 10% of villages have stations.
And proper funding of Local Authorities is a huge issue to be addressed - they have been salami sliced by about 1/3 to 1/2 across the country since 2010. These are decisions we need to make.
There's quite a few towns (25 according to wikipedia) with a population of over 20000 which don't have a railway station. these could be better served (although some in Norfolk may be a challenge). but there are also places like Newcastle-under-lyme which could/should be served despite having a population of over 75000
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Or even, why bother at all? We get ours cleaned about once every six months.
If posession of a car is a sign of having, in some sense, made it, having it as a source of pride to be cossetted is sensible. If it's a machine for getting around in (especially now the bodywork quality lasts better), why bother?
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
This is more obscure to me than your military and biking speak.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Also, very well kept and manicured gardens.
See a well kept garden and a pristine Jag on the driveway?
You don't even need to bother knocking on the door.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
So your nirvana is to have millions of cars hanging around for people to use them for 2hrs a day just that they are not owned by anyone in particular.
Sounds like a great vision. Spenny, though, but I'm sure the cost will fall over time.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Oh, I'd hose it down in winter to get rid of the road salt. And keep the windows and lights clean .
No need to bother repaiting the dents - it keeps the anal types well clear.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Maintaining I get, but cleaning doesn't materially extend asset life in this case, does it?
That said, when I owned a car, I rather enjoyed cleaning it. It's one of those somewhat fun chores which isn't too time-consuming (unless you want it to be), provides some light exercise and a visible result.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Also, very well kept and manicured gardens.
See a well kept garden and a pristine Jag on the driveway?
You don't even need to bother knocking on the door.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
As a parent of young children, I agree on the car seats. Having them out of the car is a pain as they're quite large and even with isofix etc they take a few minutes to install.
But not everyone has young children. Before we had children, we lived in a small city and the car went out perhaps 1-2 times/week at weekends. Possessions in the car were a few sweets and crossword books for longer journeys, tool kit, binoculars and a bird book. Most of the time none of those needed to be in there. A car on demand would have been perfectly fine of us then. Not now, but then. Probably fine in another 7-8 years, too, when the youngest can have a tiny lightweight booster and the others probably none.
So, I agree. Right now, I want my own car on the drive with all the kid stuff in it. But that will probably only be important for 10-12 years of my life, fewer years if I had fewer children. If others are anything like me - which they may not be, of course - then that's a minority of use cases.
Whether Leon's prediction comes to pass, outside big cities with parking issues, depends on costs versus owning a car.
Also, don't forget it's not all about money but also status: possessing your own ride is an expression of your success, identity and independence.
That isn't going to go anywhere.
Uber Platinum. Just a matter of time.
Uber Luxury exists already.
I use it a lot.
Does a standard, hailed uber come with a kid's reverse facing booster base & seat in the boot which they'll fit without fuss for a hail ?
My guess is not. (Legally it's not needed)
No but you can request an Uber assist and they’ll try and meet your requirements.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is. I mostly just rely on rain to wash off my 2015 Fiesta. I never give my car a thought except when I'm actually in it or the MoT demand comes round.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
So just to clarify, in the Ladybird Book of Tory Ideology you only get on bikes while looking for work in a monetarist induced recession, photo ops when you think 'green crap' is fashionable and hopeless attempts by fat prime ministers to get fit?
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Also, very well kept and manicured gardens.
See a well kept garden and a pristine Jag on the driveway?
You don't even need to bother knocking on the door.
That being said, those blinkered city dwellers who don't understand the politics of the car in the suburbs and rural areas are missing the point.
Rishi is trying to sure up his base. His base largely drive cars.
This is the first good bit of political nous I've seen since his not buckling to strikes.
Yes. It is shoring up his base. It is a strategy for holding Uxbridge.
But it is not a strategy for recovering from Lab 48%, Con 25%. It is not a strategy for regaining councils in the South. The notion that Oxford is suddenly going to start voting Conservative because Rishi doesn't like LTNs is for the Xs*. So is the notion that Tiverton & Honiton is going to swing back to Rishi because he doesn't like 20mph limits.
The Conservatives are going to be reduced to a rump of the East Coast, Outer Suburbiton, Continuity Red Wall and General Sir Bufton Tufton (Rtd) at the next election. This is a policy that appeals to all those demographics. It is not a policy that will win back the 48% who say they're going to vote for Starmer.
* formerly known as birds
It is well known that my view of Rishi is that he is an electoral dud.
He isn't going to come anywhere near winning an election.
But the pro car message gives him, perhaps, 5% more than 25% - it converts the likes of my father, proud driver and car owner, a reason to vote for someone who he considers to the left of Tony Blair economically.
It gives the Tories back some don't knows.
Interestingly, the only real, albeit small, victories for the Blue meanies in the past few months have been car related. Cambridge council by election, and Uxbridge. Oxford could well surprise.
In what realistic way could Oxford surprise? I don't know what the boundary changes bring, but East has a Labour majority of 18k and West (and Abingdon) a Lib Dem majority of 9k. One or both of them might get a below average swing, but neither are going to have a surprise outcome.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
It's quite possibly a prescription for the future in large cities, which house a significant and growing proportion of the world's population. Even in suburbanised Britain London is about 15% of the population - add similarly built up zones of the other major cities plus well serviced towns like Oxford and Cambridge, Brighton, Bath etc and it's a decent number of people who could be living like that. Then consider somewhere like Japan where almost everyone lives in a city and people rarely go on long drives, and it makes some sense.
For the miniscule minority who live in cities, maybe.
Most Britons live in towns, not cities though.
Are you quite sure that only a "miniscule minority" live in cities? Have you got the figures? Doesn't match what I can find.
Source: ONS England and Wales figures.
9.0 million live in London. 8.0 million live in any other city combined other than London.
English people overwhelming live in towns, not that you'd know it from how some on this website think and act.
So you accept that you're wrong. 17 million isn't a miniscule minority by any reasonable definition of 'miniscule'.
No but 2/3 of the English and Welsh population live in towns and villages not cities so Bart does have a point there
However anything including a village or a rural area can support alternatives eg a car club, or a stop on a bus route. Never mind the many villages with railway stations.
Choice needs to be husbanded and made convenient. If done correctly, the 13 mile Llandudno -> Bets-y-Coed cycle route should be about an hour each way, depending on traffic, and far less time to the villages en route.
Post Beeching probably less than 10% of villages have railway stations, buses are often every hour at best in rural areas
it depends on the area. there are a lot of places where there's no bus services at all. for where there is a bus service you may find 2 hourly not uncommon. but that's mostly during the day, if you're trying to go anywhere for the evening or on a sunday there's no bus services at all. There's also no desire in both local and national government to spend the money to ensure that these places have a decent bus service because it doesn't win enough votes.
Which both emphasise my point.
I make it 2500 railway stations plus heritage lines plus systems such as metro or light rail. I have a light rail station just under 2 miles away which is 12-14 minutes on a bicycle, where previously I had no station for 30 years until the 1990s. I can either take the hack-bike and park it at the station, or (if and when I get one) take a Brompton and take it with me, or take the car.
I'd agree that approx 10% of villages have stations.
And proper funding of Local Authorities is a huge issue to be addressed - they have been salami sliced by about 1/3 to 1/2 across the country since 2010. These are decisions we need to make.
There's quite a few towns (25 according to wikipedia) with a population of over 20000 which don't have a railway station. these could be better served (although some in Norfolk may be a challenge). but there are also places like Newcastle-under-lyme which could/should be served despite having a population of over 75000
Absolutely - Mansfield near me had that for decades for around 60-70k people. To the extent that the station 6 miles away in the next-town-but-one received the name "Alfreton and Mansfield Parkway" partly as a PR-sop.
Since 1995 it has had a light rail station on the Robin Hood line that was running at 400k passengers per annum pre-Covid. 22/23 numbers not yet available. 21/22 was 250k.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Also, very well kept and manicured gardens.
See a well kept garden and a pristine Jag on the driveway?
You don't even need to bother knocking on the door.
Labour voters are too busy working for a living.
I thought they were all on strike ?
If Labour voters only came from strike-prone sections of the public sector then Rishi wouldn't have such a polling problem.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
I try and keep mine maintained, but I never clean it. (Yes it is filthy), & run it into the ground. It's the French method of car ownership (My last two cars have been Peugeots)
So just to clarify, in the Ladybird Book of Tory Ideology you only get on bikes while looking for work in a monetarist induced recession, photo ops when you think 'green crap' is fashionable and hopeless attempts by fat prime ministers to get fit?
Have we ever seen Mr Sunak on a bike, come to think of it?
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Also, very well kept and manicured gardens.
See a well kept garden and a pristine Jag on the driveway?
You don't even need to bother knocking on the door.
Labour voters are too busy working for a living.
I thought they were all on strike ?
If Labour voters only came from strike-prone sections of the public sector then Rishi wouldn't have such a polling problem.
He wouldnt have such a polling problem if he implemented actual conservative policies.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Maintaining I get, but cleaning doesn't materially extend asset life in this case, does it?
That said, when I owned a car, I rather enjoyed cleaning it. It's one of those somewhat fun chores which isn't too time-consuming (unless you want it to be), provides some light exercise and a visible result.
Some bird shit and some tree fall stuff does actually damage to paintwork if left.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Maintaining I get, but cleaning doesn't materially extend asset life in this case, does it?
That said, when I owned a car, I rather enjoyed cleaning it. It's one of those somewhat fun chores which isn't too time-consuming (unless you want it to be), provides some light exercise and a visible result.
Some bird shit and some tree fall stuff does actually damage to paintwork if left.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is. I mostly just rely on rain to wash off my 2015 Fiesta. I never give my car a thought except when I'm actually in it or the MoT demand comes round.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
For me, a car is simply a tool that allows me to do what I need/want to do. If I could do the things I wanted to do without a car, I'd not have one. I find no great joy in driving; the joy can come from what I do at the destination.
I also don't see my car as an extension of my psyche, or a reflection of who I am. It's a car.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Also, very well kept and manicured gardens.
See a well kept garden and a pristine Jag on the driveway?
You don't even need to bother knocking on the door.
Labour voters are too busy working for a living.
I work like a Japanese prisoner of war and that describes me perfectly.
So just to clarify, in the Ladybird Book of Tory Ideology you only get on bikes while looking for work in a monetarist induced recession, photo ops when you think 'green crap' is fashionable and hopeless attempts by fat prime ministers to get fit?
Have we ever seen Mr Sunak on a bike, come to think of it?
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
Also, very well kept and manicured gardens.
See a well kept garden and a pristine Jag on the driveway?
You don't even need to bother knocking on the door.
Labour voters are too busy working for a living.
I work like a Japanese prisoner of war and that describes me perfectly.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is. I mostly just rely on rain to wash off my 2015 Fiesta. I never give my car a thought except when I'm actually in it or the MoT demand comes round.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
Is there a good public transport system in Godalming? Usually with smallish towns, the answer is not particularly.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is. I mostly just rely on rain to wash off my 2015 Fiesta. I never give my car a thought except when I'm actually in it or the MoT demand comes round.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
For me, a car is simply a tool that allows me to do what I need/want to do. If I could do the things I wanted to do without a car, I'd not have one. I find no great joy in driving; the joy can come from what I do at the destination.
I also don't see my car as an extension of my psyche, or a reflection of who I am. It's a car.
And that is, I think, the heart of the matter. Once a car is a means to an end, then it's possible that there are other ways of achieving the same ends better. In fact, it's possible that car use gets in the way of achieving those ends.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Maintaining I get, but cleaning doesn't materially extend asset life in this case, does it?
That said, when I owned a car, I rather enjoyed cleaning it. It's one of those somewhat fun chores which isn't too time-consuming (unless you want it to be), provides some light exercise and a visible result.
Some bird shit and some tree fall stuff does actually damage to paintwork if left.
Some people just like clean and neat.
Aphid shite too. (Off lime trees, notably.)
We had a funny around here. Someone owns a long wheelbase Landy, covered in checker plate, snorkel & spade bolted on. Obviously never been in water deeper than the tire tread.
The left it sitting for a long while (month or so) under a tree, in the street. Don’t know what it was, but the pollen/whatever fall was reddish. When it rotten/dissolved in the rain, it fucked the paintwork.
Some folks on here feel stuck in the 70s/80s/90s. I don’t blame them. Simpler times.
"Simpler" isn't necessarily the word I would use to describe the 1990s. In some ways the time were living in now is more simplistic, with populist politics being more popular now than they were then.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Maintaining I get, but cleaning doesn't materially extend asset life in this case, does it?
That said, when I owned a car, I rather enjoyed cleaning it. It's one of those somewhat fun chores which isn't too time-consuming (unless you want it to be), provides some light exercise and a visible result.
Some bird shit and some tree fall stuff does actually damage to paintwork if left.
Some people just like clean and neat.
Aphid shite too. (Off lime trees, notably.)
We had a funny around here. Someone owns a long wheelbase Landy, covered in checker plate, snorkel & spade bolted on. Obviously never been in water deeper than the tire tread.
The left it sitting for a long while (month or so) under a tree, in the street. Don’t know what it was, but the pollen/whatever fall was reddish. When it rotten/dissolved in the rain, it fucked the paintwork.
Could be, though I wonder if there was one of those Sahara dustfalls as well as the usual greenfly diarrhoea.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
It's quite possibly a prescription for the future in large cities, which house a significant and growing proportion of the world's population. Even in suburbanised Britain London is about 15% of the population - add similarly built up zones of the other major cities plus well serviced towns like Oxford and Cambridge, Brighton, Bath etc and it's a decent number of people who could be living like that. Then consider somewhere like Japan where almost everyone lives in a city and people rarely go on long drives, and it makes some sense.
For the miniscule minority who live in cities, maybe.
Most Britons live in towns, not cities though.
Are you quite sure that only a "miniscule minority" live in cities? Have you got the figures? Doesn't match what I can find.
Source: ONS England and Wales figures.
9.0 million live in London. 8.0 million live in any other city combined other than London.
English people overwhelming live in towns, not that you'd know it from how some on this website think and act.
So you accept that you're wrong. 17 million isn't a miniscule minority by any reasonable definition of 'miniscule'.
No but 2/3 of the English and Welsh population live in towns and villages not cities so Bart does have a point there
However anything including a village or a rural area can support alternatives eg a car club, or a stop on a bus route. Never mind the many villages with railway stations.
Choice needs to be husbanded and made convenient. If done correctly, the 13 mile Llandudno -> Bets-y-Coed cycle route should be about an hour each way, depending on traffic, and far less time to the villages en route.
Post Beeching probably less than 10% of villages have railway stations, buses are often every hour at best in rural areas
it depends on the area. there are a lot of places where there's no bus services at all. for where there is a bus service you may find 2 hourly not uncommon. but that's mostly during the day, if you're trying to go anywhere for the evening or on a sunday there's no bus services at all. There's also no desire in both local and national government to spend the money to ensure that these places have a decent bus service because it doesn't win enough votes.
Which both emphasise my point.
I make it 2500 railway stations plus heritage lines plus systems such as metro or light rail. I have a light rail station just under 2 miles away which is 12-14 minutes on a bicycle, where previously I had no station for 30 years until the 1990s. I can either take the hack-bike and park it at the station, or (if and when I get one) take a Brompton and take it with me, or take the car.
I'd agree that approx 10% of villages have stations.
And proper funding of Local Authorities is a huge issue to be addressed - they have been salami sliced by about 1/3 to 1/2 across the country since 2010. These are decisions we need to make.
There's quite a few towns (25 according to wikipedia) with a population of over 20000 which don't have a railway station. these could be better served (although some in Norfolk may be a challenge). but there are also places like Newcastle-under-lyme which could/should be served despite having a population of over 75000
Absolutely - Mansfield near me had that for decades for around 60-70k people. To the extent that the station 6 miles away in the next-town-but-one received the name "Alfreton and Mansfield Parkway" partly as a PR-sop.
Since 1995 it has had a light rail station on the Robin Hood line that was running at 400k passengers per annum pre-Covid. 22/23 numbers not yet available. 21/22 was 250k.
Anyhoo - things to do. Have a good day, all.
It is great to see the expansion of these systems. The Robin Hood line is a great idea and is serving as the foundation for a whole host of extensions to other poorly served communities using other old routes. And of course linking directly into the tram system at Bulwell is a rare example of common sense in transport planning.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is.
It's the transparent layer of paint that's the final coat. It's what makes the car look shiny and is very easy to damage by letting people with gritty rags wash your shit. Minor scratches, swirls, etc. can be polished out if you know what you are doing and adds considerably to the appeal and hence value of a car. Far better not to let it get damaged in the first place.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is.
It's the transparent layer of paint that's the final coat. It's what makes the car look shiny and is very easy to damage by letting people with gritty rags wash your shit. Minor scratches, swirls, etc. can be polished out if you know what you are doing and adds considerably to the appeal and hence value of a car. Far better not to let it get damaged in the first place.
I wondered why the local lot with buckets on a derelict filling station forecourt advertised their car wash as "touchless".
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
On top of that. All the major car companies, and many large tech companies, are very keen on turning private transport into something you subscribe to rather than own, which to extent they already do with car financing.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is.
It's the transparent layer of paint that's the final coat. It's what makes the car look shiny and is very easy to damage by letting people with gritty rags wash your shit. Minor scratches, swirls, etc. can be polished out if you know what you are doing and adds considerably to the appeal and hence value of a car. Far better not to let it get damaged in the first place.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is. I mostly just rely on rain to wash off my 2015 Fiesta. I never give my car a thought except when I'm actually in it or the MoT demand comes round.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
For me, a car is simply a tool that allows me to do what I need/want to do. If I could do the things I wanted to do without a car, I'd not have one. I find no great joy in driving; the joy can come from what I do at the destination.
I also don't see my car as an extension of my psyche, or a reflection of who I am. It's a car.
And that is, I think, the heart of the matter. Once a car is a means to an end, then it's possible that there are other ways of achieving the same ends better. In fact, it's possible that car use gets in the way of achieving those ends.
The car is an interesting machine. It promises individual freedom, but relies on infrastructure that is provided collectively. It provides convenience for its owner but inconveniences others. It allows us to be ourselves but cuts us off from other people. It lets us do more but makes us less active. It opens up choices for some and restricts choices for others. Politically it's interesting because of all the things we do on a day to day basis it probably imposes more negative externalities, global and local, than anything else. Increasingly I think the political left-right divide comes down to whether you take the idea of these externalities seriously or not. The right can get a lot of mileage out of telling their voters that they can do what they want and any negative effects on other people are unimportant. The danger for the left is that they overestimate the extent to which people are willing, or feel able to afford, to care.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Maintaining I get, but cleaning doesn't materially extend asset life in this case, does it?
That said, when I owned a car, I rather enjoyed cleaning it. It's one of those somewhat fun chores which isn't too time-consuming (unless you want it to be), provides some light exercise and a visible result.
Some bird shit and some tree fall stuff does actually damage to paintwork if left.
Some people just like clean and neat.
Aphid shite too. (Off lime trees, notably.)
We had a funny around here. Someone owns a long wheelbase Landy, covered in checker plate, snorkel & spade bolted on. Obviously never been in water deeper than the tire tread.
The left it sitting for a long while (month or so) under a tree, in the street. Don’t know what it was, but the pollen/whatever fall was reddish. When it rotten/dissolved in the rain, it fucked the paintwork.
Could be, though I wonder if there was one of those Sahara dustfalls as well as the usual greenfly diarrhoea.
Older residents on the same street (part of a grid) seem to have car covers, quite often. Noticeable that on other streets they don’t. Makes me think it’s related to the type of tree..
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is.
It's the transparent layer of paint that's the final coat. It's what makes the car look shiny and is very easy to damage by letting people with gritty rags wash your shit. Minor scratches, swirls, etc. can be polished out if you know what you are doing and adds considerably to the appeal and hence value of a car. Far better not to let it get damaged in the first place.
I wondered why the local lot with buckets on a derelict filling station forecourt advertised their car wash as "touchless".
I thought that was a euphemism for something entirely different.
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
Given the political views of taxi drivers, Reform majority governments would be a nailed on certainty unless they were genuinely self driving.
That being said, those blinkered city dwellers who don't understand the politics of the car in the suburbs and rural areas are missing the point.
Rishi is trying to sure up his base. His base largely drive cars.
This is the first good bit of political nous I've seen since his not buckling to strikes.
Yes. It is shoring up his base. It is a strategy for holding Uxbridge.
But it is not a strategy for recovering from Lab 48%, Con 25%. It is not a strategy for regaining councils in the South. The notion that Oxford is suddenly going to start voting Conservative because Rishi doesn't like LTNs is for the Xs*. So is the notion that Tiverton & Honiton is going to swing back to Rishi because he doesn't like 20mph limits.
The Conservatives are going to be reduced to a rump of the East Coast, Outer Suburbiton, Continuity Red Wall and General Sir Bufton Tufton (Rtd) at the next election. This is a policy that appeals to all those demographics. It is not a policy that will win back the 48% who say they're going to vote for Starmer.
* formerly known as birds
It is well known that my view of Rishi is that he is an electoral dud.
He isn't going to come anywhere near winning an election.
But the pro car message gives him, perhaps, 5% more than 25% - it converts the likes of my father, proud driver and car owner, a reason to vote for someone who he considers to the left of Tony Blair economically.
It gives the Tories back some don't knows.
Interestingly, the only real, albeit small, victories for the Blue meanies in the past few months have been car related. Cambridge council by election, and Uxbridge. Oxford could well surprise.
In what realistic way could Oxford surprise? I don't know what the boundary changes bring, but East has a Labour majority of 18k and West (and Abingdon) a Lib Dem majority of 9k. One or both of them might get a below average swing, but neither are going to have a surprise outcome.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is.
It's the transparent layer of paint that's the final coat. It's what makes the car look shiny and is very easy to damage by letting people with gritty rags wash your shit. Minor scratches, swirls, etc. can be polished out if you know what you are doing and adds considerably to the appeal and hence value of a car. Far better not to let it get damaged in the first place.
Makes sense for you - Nick's Fiesta, not so much.
Nick’s Fiesta might well be the most expensive thing he owns, apart from his house.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is.
It's the transparent layer of paint that's the final coat. It's what makes the car look shiny and is very easy to damage by letting people with gritty rags wash your shit. Minor scratches, swirls, etc. can be polished out if you know what you are doing and adds considerably to the appeal and hence value of a car. Far better not to let it get damaged in the first place.
I wondered why the local lot with buckets on a derelict filling station forecourt advertised their car wash as "touchless".
I thought that was a euphemism for something entirely different.
Cash? But I never understood it either, never having used that facility.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is. I mostly just rely on rain to wash off my 2015 Fiesta. I never give my car a thought except when I'm actually in it or the MoT demand comes round.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
For me, a car is simply a tool that allows me to do what I need/want to do. If I could do the things I wanted to do without a car, I'd not have one. I find no great joy in driving; the joy can come from what I do at the destination.
I also don't see my car as an extension of my psyche, or a reflection of who I am. It's a car.
And that is, I think, the heart of the matter. Once a car is a means to an end, then it's possible that there are other ways of achieving the same ends better. In fact, it's possible that car use gets in the way of achieving those ends.
The car is an interesting machine. It promises individual freedom, but relies on infrastructure that is provided collectively. It provides convenience for its owner but inconveniences others. It allows us to be ourselves but cuts us off from other people. It lets us do more but makes us less active. It opens up choices for some and restricts choices for others. Politically it's interesting because of all the things we do on a day to day basis it probably imposes more negative externalities, global and local, than anything else. Increasingly I think the political left-right divide comes down to whether you take the idea of these externalities seriously or not. The right can get a lot of mileage out of telling their voters that they can do what they want and any negative effects on other people are unimportant. The danger for the left is that they overestimate the extent to which people are willing, or feel able to afford, to care.
But the point is that we can reove most of those externalities whilst still retaining the individual car ownership. Just with a different power system. What Leon and others are proposing is extending those changes to remove the right to individual freedom far beyond what is necessary.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is.
It's the transparent layer of paint that's the final coat. It's what makes the car look shiny and is very easy to damage by letting people with gritty rags wash your shit. Minor scratches, swirls, etc. can be polished out if you know what you are doing and adds considerably to the appeal and hence value of a car. Far better not to let it get damaged in the first place.
Makes sense for you - Nick's Fiesta, not so much.
Nick’s Fiesta might well be the most expensive thing he owns, apart from his house.
Looking after it a bit doesn’t seem mad to me.
Busy guy, doesn't even cook - could easily replace it. Why bother ?
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is. I mostly just rely on rain to wash off my 2015 Fiesta. I never give my car a thought except when I'm actually in it or the MoT demand comes round.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
For me, a car is simply a tool that allows me to do what I need/want to do. If I could do the things I wanted to do without a car, I'd not have one. I find no great joy in driving; the joy can come from what I do at the destination.
I also don't see my car as an extension of my psyche, or a reflection of who I am. It's a car.
And that is, I think, the heart of the matter. Once a car is a means to an end, then it's possible that there are other ways of achieving the same ends better. In fact, it's possible that car use gets in the way of achieving those ends.
The car is an interesting machine. It promises individual freedom, but relies on infrastructure that is provided collectively. It provides convenience for its owner but inconveniences others. It allows us to be ourselves but cuts us off from other people. It lets us do more but makes us less active. It opens up choices for some and restricts choices for others. Politically it's interesting because of all the things we do on a day to day basis it probably imposes more negative externalities, global and local, than anything else. Increasingly I think the political left-right divide comes down to whether you take the idea of these externalities seriously or not. The right can get a lot of mileage out of telling their voters that they can do what they want and any negative effects on other people are unimportant. The danger for the left is that they overestimate the extent to which people are willing, or feel able to afford, to care.
I think the Cons are absolutely right to pick a fight over car ownership because most of us have one and many of us realise the impracticalities of acting too quickly to dispossess us of them, or penalising ownership which the ULEZ has shown so clearly.
It is the one area (and I can't for the life of me think of any other) where actually the Cons might be able to claw some votes back and it seems that Lab are handing these to them on a plate.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is.
It's the transparent layer of paint that's the final coat. It's what makes the car look shiny and is very easy to damage by letting people with gritty rags wash your shit. Minor scratches, swirls, etc. can be polished out if you know what you are doing and adds considerably to the appeal and hence value of a car. Far better not to let it get damaged in the first place.
Makes sense for you - Nick's Fiesta, not so much.
Nick’s Fiesta might well be the most expensive thing he owns, apart from his house.
Looking after it a bit doesn’t seem mad to me.
Busy guy, doesn't even cook - could easily replace it. Why bother ?
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
"Immediately summonable"? To where?
Will it carry a bicycle? Camping gear? Will I get fined if I stink it out with fish and chips?
Will the AI driver be able to get out and open the gates on a private off-road track?
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
As a parent of young children, I agree on the car seats. Having them out of the car is a pain as they're quite large and even with isofix etc they take a few minutes to install.
But not everyone has young children. Before we had children, we lived in a small city and the car went out perhaps 1-2 times/week at weekends. Possessions in the car were a few sweets and crossword books for longer journeys, tool kit, binoculars and a bird book. Most of the time none of those needed to be in there. A car on demand would have been perfectly fine of us then. Not now, but then. Probably fine in another 7-8 years, too, when the youngest can have a tiny lightweight booster and the others probably none.
So, I agree. Right now, I want my own car on the drive with all the kid stuff in it. But that will probably only be important for 10-12 years of my life, fewer years if I had fewer children. If others are anything like me - which they may not be, of course - then that's a minority of use cases.
Whether Leon's prediction comes to pass, outside big cities with parking issues, depends on costs versus owning a car.
Also, don't forget it's not all about money but also status: possessing your own ride is an expression of your success, identity and independence.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
Indeed, not everybody has access to the tube.
Nearest bus stop to me is a 1.4 mile walk.
Even for an idealist like myself who would like to go totes off grid, it's almost impossible to live rurally in this country without a car.
Surely the real green issue is not about having cars? It's how we power them.
Good morning
I believe this forum has a strong London representation and of course with the tens of billions spent on its transport infrastructure it, in common with other large cities, provides the means to travel without a car and indeed why would anyone want to drive into cental London
However, move out of London and the country is very much car dependent, and the idea we can walk and cycle everywhere is not the case and in our area there are not many cyclists on the road anyway and of course cycle tracks are being built to separate them from cars, though some cyclists still use the roads
The move to ev's will be a long drawn out one as new ICE vehicles will be available throughout Europe until 2035, ( expect the UK to move the 2030 date to match Europe) and this does give space for the provision of the infrastructure needed plus hopefully a huge drop in their prices, as being green at present certainly is a wealthy person's domain
I notice the government have confirmed the granting of hundreds of oil and gas licences in the North Sea and this will be a challenge for Starmer, especially in Scotland, if he maintains his objection to these new licences, though this may be number 35 reverse of policy from him
Wenn I lived in the English countryside 4 miles from the nearest shop without any money I went everywhere without a car. It kept me fit and active and connected.
Ahh. I get it. While pounding the roads on your bike in all weathers you developed an enduring and intense dislike and resentment of the motorists passing you all the time.
If indeed you did travel four miles to the local Spar by bike for a curly wurly.
I'm regularly held up by car drivers when cycling round Edinburgh. They should stop being so selfish and leave the car at home.
We lived in Fairmilehead and my daily journey to St Andrews Square was by bus
Even today cycling to and from work to Fairmilehead would be unrealistic, unless you are a tour de France cyclist
Freewheeling down to the centre of Edinburgh and having a good workout on the way home sound like the ideal commute.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is. I mostly just rely on rain to wash off my 2015 Fiesta. I never give my car a thought except when I'm actually in it or the MoT demand comes round.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
For me, a car is simply a tool that allows me to do what I need/want to do. If I could do the things I wanted to do without a car, I'd not have one. I find no great joy in driving; the joy can come from what I do at the destination.
I also don't see my car as an extension of my psyche, or a reflection of who I am. It's a car.
And that is, I think, the heart of the matter. Once a car is a means to an end, then it's possible that there are other ways of achieving the same ends better. In fact, it's possible that car use gets in the way of achieving those ends.
The car is an interesting machine. It promises individual freedom, but relies on infrastructure that is provided collectively. It provides convenience for its owner but inconveniences others. It allows us to be ourselves but cuts us off from other people. It lets us do more but makes us less active. It opens up choices for some and restricts choices for others. Politically it's interesting because of all the things we do on a day to day basis it probably imposes more negative externalities, global and local, than anything else. Increasingly I think the political left-right divide comes down to whether you take the idea of these externalities seriously or not. The right can get a lot of mileage out of telling their voters that they can do what they want and any negative effects on other people are unimportant. The danger for the left is that they overestimate the extent to which people are willing, or feel able to afford, to care.
I think the Cons are absolutely right to pick a fight over car ownership because most of us have one and many of us realise the impracticalities of acting too quickly to dispossess us of them, or penalising ownership which the ULEZ has shown so clearly.
It is the one area (and I can't for the life of me think of any other) where actually the Cons might be able to claw some votes back and it seems that Lab are handing these to them on a plate.
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
"Immediately summonable"? To where?
Will it carry a bicycle? Camping gear? Will I get fined if I stink it out with fish and chips?
Will the AI driver be able to get out and open the gates on a private off-road track?
Those are the 5% cases. The rest of us will be watching Netflix in our robo-taxis.
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
"Immediately summonable"? To where?
Will it carry a bicycle? Camping gear? Will I get fined if I stink it out with fish and chips?
Will the AI driver be able to get out and open the gates on a private off-road track?
Those are the 5% cases. The rest of us will be watching Netflix in our robo-taxis.
Slightly tongue in cheek, but the strongest correlating indicator of Conservative voting that I have ever found in 20 years of canvassing is car related.
- Those washing their car in their driveway on a Saturday morning.
Slightly disconcertingly for the blue meanies, apart from my Dad, I don't know anyone who does this now. Why bother when its a tenner at the local hand car wash?
The gangs of trafficked Kurdish vagabonds don't even use the 'Two Bucket' system which is the absolute minimum for not fucking your clear coat. One session at one of these refugee camps and it's done for.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
I wonder what a clear coat is. I mostly just rely on rain to wash off my 2015 Fiesta. I never give my car a thought except when I'm actually in it or the MoT demand comes round.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
For me, a car is simply a tool that allows me to do what I need/want to do. If I could do the things I wanted to do without a car, I'd not have one. I find no great joy in driving; the joy can come from what I do at the destination.
I also don't see my car as an extension of my psyche, or a reflection of who I am. It's a car.
And that is, I think, the heart of the matter. Once a car is a means to an end, then it's possible that there are other ways of achieving the same ends better. In fact, it's possible that car use gets in the way of achieving those ends.
The car is an interesting machine. It promises individual freedom, but relies on infrastructure that is provided collectively. It provides convenience for its owner but inconveniences others. It allows us to be ourselves but cuts us off from other people. It lets us do more but makes us less active. It opens up choices for some and restricts choices for others. Politically it's interesting because of all the things we do on a day to day basis it probably imposes more negative externalities, global and local, than anything else. Increasingly I think the political left-right divide comes down to whether you take the idea of these externalities seriously or not. The right can get a lot of mileage out of telling their voters that they can do what they want and any negative effects on other people are unimportant. The danger for the left is that they overestimate the extent to which people are willing, or feel able to afford, to care.
But the point is that we can reove most of those externalities whilst still retaining the individual car ownership. Just with a different power system. What Leon and others are proposing is extending those changes to remove the right to individual freedom far beyond what is necessary.
Some but not all. Congestion, danger for other road users, undermining the consumer base for public transport, making users fat, alienating us from each other, all still there when you go electric. Dont get me wrong, I have a car and use it plenty, but I am well aware of its negative side effects. It's all about finding the right balance, and shaping people's incentives. Personally I think we have further to go in discouraging car use and making urban environments safer for pedestrians and cyclists, especially children.
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
"Immediately summonable"? To where?
Will it carry a bicycle? Camping gear? Will I get fined if I stink it out with fish and chips?
Will the AI driver be able to get out and open the gates on a private off-road track?
Those are the 5% cases. The rest of us will be watching Netflix in our robo-taxis.
Yes. Fuck the 5%. They don’t matter.
Sometime later - “Hmmm. We only implemented 50 of those ‘Fuck the 5%’ policies. Why is everyone hopping mad?”
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
People are attached to their cars. I was. Then I sold it and feel fine (and richer)
It might be a wrench for some. Tho I suspect it will happen so gradually and incrementally most won’t notice. But it is already happening. The young are not learning to drive
They very much are where I live.
The stats say otherwise. America leads the way (but this is also true of the UK)
DETROIT (AP) — Michael Andretti has a 21-year-old son with zero interest in obtaining a driver’s license. Rideshare apps get him where he wants to go.
In New Jersey, the 16-year-old daughter of a local short track racer took a five-minute driving lesson on a golf cart through their yard before turning over the keys. “That's it, I'm done. Don't like it,” Kat Wilson told their father.
The teenage rite of passage of rushing to the DMV on your birthday to get that plastic card that represents freedom has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license, down from 80% percent in 1983.
That's also been my experience with my lad and his friends. Most of them have learned or are learning to drive, but mostly due to insistence by their parents that they need to be able to do so. There's not been much enthusiasm for it, and most of them seem to regard it as a bit of a chore rather than a leap into freedom. They don't see the point - Ubers already give them freedom, without the hassle and expense of car ownership.
I actually agree it will be a sad moment when the last human-driven cars disappear. They do provide a wonderful freedom: I would advise my teenage daughters to learn to drive (despite all that I have said) - but not so they can drive in the UK (boring, expensive, often a chore), so they can hire a car in a foreign country and go see the world for themselves. A glorious, liberating experience (and the chance to do it will be with us for a couple of decades yet, at least)
But then cantering a horse across green hills and through woods without having to worry about cars and roads and all that danger was surely wonderful, as well; but it disappeared, and progress had its way
Even if human driven vehicles get replaced with autonomous vehicles, you'll still have most people owning their own autonomous vehicle rather than relying upon taxis for the same reason they already have their own vehicle rather than relying upon taxis.
No, they won't because who wants that shit cluttering up the drive and who wants to maintain it at vast expense when there will be companies offering immediate autonomous vehicles at your door in minutes with near-zero expense
It's like growing all your own veg versus "just going to the supermarket". A few cranks will do it; most will shrug and say SUPERMARKET
All that Sunday morning washing of the car by the oldies (not me). That timing is suspicious, isn't it? The worship of the Great Lord [edited to remove unfortunate ambiguity].
Cleaning and maintaining an expensive asset - clearly a sign of mental derangement.
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Maintaining I get, but cleaning doesn't materially extend asset life in this case, does it?
That said, when I owned a car, I rather enjoyed cleaning it. It's one of those somewhat fun chores which isn't too time-consuming (unless you want it to be), provides some light exercise and a visible result.
Some bird shit and some tree fall stuff does actually damage to paintwork if left.
Some people just like clean and neat.
Aphid shite too. (Off lime trees, notably.)
We had a funny around here. Someone owns a long wheelbase Landy, covered in checker plate, snorkel & spade bolted on. Obviously never been in water deeper than the tire tread.
The left it sitting for a long while (month or so) under a tree, in the street. Don’t know what it was, but the pollen/whatever fall was reddish. When it rotten/dissolved in the rain, it fucked the paintwork.
Could be, though I wonder if there was one of those Sahara dustfalls as well as the usual greenfly diarrhoea.
Older residents on the same street (part of a grid) seem to have car covers, quite often. Noticeable that on other streets they don’t. Makes me think it’s related to the type of tree..
Aphids in lime trees dripping honeydew, most likely.
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
On top of that. All the major car companies, and many large tech companies, are very keen on turning private transport into something you subscribe to rather than own, which to extent they already do with car financing.
"Very keen on turning private transport into something you subscribe to rather than own"
The growing trend towards owning nothing and renting everything is worrying. I now "rent" Microsoft office by the month at a far higher cost than I used to pay for a one off license. (I gave up on Adobe and use freeware alternatives now).
I noticed Spotify upping the price of their subscription last month, I've been paying them a tenner or whatever it is since the year dot, which must add up to about £1800-ish of payments, yet if I cancel, I own nothing. Not a single single, let alone an album.
While this has been the case for software as a service for donkey's years and is less than idea, it's even more worrying to see it creep into areas it has no right being in. Like heated seats on your car.
FPT - I see @Leon once again totally fails to comprehend anyone who lives outside London by predicting no-one will have cars by 2050.
People will always have cars.
I believe @leon was predicting self driving electric vehicles that you summon when you need one (I could have just made that all up). That isn't London centric prediction but applies everywhere. It seems a reasonable prediction for the future and a comparison with the end of the use of the horse seems apt. Doesn't mean it will happen, but reasonable.
It doesn't. In London, you only very occasionally need a car - i.e. where you travel somewhere out of town on a trip at the weekend, or need to carry heavy luggage and ferry friends - whereas everywhere else you use a car several times every day: to drop off the kids, drive to work, go shopping, pick up the kids, and then to head out to the gym later. Maybe drop stuff at the tip too.
You thus want one on the drive all the time with all your stuff in it, and the kids car seats, ready to use at any time - so you get your own.
It may be on a PCP or hire-purchase, rather than owned outright, but it's definitely "your" car and that's the model 90%+ of the country uses and will continue to use.
@leon isn't talking about NOW, we are talking about some future. Stuff changes. You are always telling us we aren't thinking enough. Think about where it comes almost instantly, with a child seat if you want one, with a trailer if you want one. Waiting for you by the time you have put your shoes on and locked up. All paid for by an annual fee. No car not starting in the morning, or having a flat, no MOT, no service, no filling up or charging, etc, etc.
Go on do what you tell us to do. Think out of the box. It is like saying in 1918 that planes are no use for public transport because they only carry one or two people, don't go far and you would have to learn to fly them.
It won't come "almost instantly" anywhere in the country because there'd never be enough fleet to supply everyone from regional depots to all who want it at peak times in an economical fashion. People sometimes need to leave their house in minutes, and not wait an unspecified time. Moreover, people like to choose their own seat, their own stuff, their own kids stuff, their own colour, with their own music, and they like it on their own drive RIGHT THERE so it's ready whenever they want it. People will pay for convenience. And all the issues you list with possessing a car there are either very rare or total non-issues.
The future? No, this is just a myopic fantasy of some excitable Mets.
You're doing it again. Not thinking of what the future may bring. I covered the issues you brought up before (child seat and going to the dump). Let's cover another you have just brought up; music. A few years ago that would have been an issue. You would have had to take your own CDs rather than leaving them in your car. Not now. All on the phone. What else may change in the FUTURE. Note we are talking about the FUTURE. So programmable seats. My car already has that. If it really bugs you it is not inconceivable you could change the colour of the car. I can already change the colour of the lighting in my car. How do you know we can't some time in the future get a car to you within minutes and one that hasn't got a flat battery or flat tyre?
As far as it being a met elite fantasy, well I live in a village with no bus service and a station a mile away so I drive a car everywhere except when going to London, but I can imagine a different future, even if it may not happen.
If in the future a better alternative is invented, then yes it may change.
Taxis are not a better alternative. They already exist, and people don't like them and don't use them by and large. Except in inner cities, or when inebriated, or in other very limited circumstances.
Taxis becoming driverless isn't going to change that fact.
Yes I agree with that and I don't think that is what either @leon or I are arguing. It has to be something better than just a driverless taxi.
I gave my example. We have two cars. We don't need two but keep two for the occasional inconvenience of not having a spare car. Financially it makes no sense for us to have the 2nd car, but we don't give it up. Things will have to change a lot for us to do that and a driverless taxis alone is not the answer.
But that is not what either @leon or I are arguing. We are looking into a possible future where the convenience is so overwhelming that owning a car becomes equivalent to keeping a horse for personal transport. Nice to have if you are into cars/horses but less convenient than the alternative.
That's exactly what Leon is saying. That driverless taxis will replace cars because well actually he's got no reasons why, he's just saying its the case and insulting anyone who disagrees with him.
Taxis already exist. Whether they're driverless or not, they're inconvenient and not of interest to all but a tiny minority. Making taxis driverless isn't going to change that fact.
You stupid, dung-eating regional oik, the benefit of a society without private cars will be to society as a whole, more than the individual. Towns and cities will be transformed, all the horrible concrete and tarmac and infrastructure at the moment dedicated to cars will be freed up for parks and gardens and cycleways and trees and life and cafes and expensive oyster-serving pubs
But I bet it will benefit the individual as well: owning a car is a hassle, you have to clean and maintain it, you have to pay tons for it, you gotta fill it up, insure it, MOT it, blah blah - and there is always the chance you will mow someone down in it, or get killed in it yourself by some other terrible human driver
That will all go. ALL of it. In the end we will wonder why we never did it before and the Age of the Car will be seen as an aberration
And you will get around just as fast: by autonomous e-cars. Indeed, you will likely get about faster as these machines will not get stuck in traffic jams: autonomous e-traffic will be all be smoothed out by a central computer so there is zero congestion, like wot they have in Singapore now
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
"Immediately summonable"? To where?
Will it carry a bicycle? Camping gear? Will I get fined if I stink it out with fish and chips?
Will the AI driver be able to get out and open the gates on a private off-road track?
Those are the 5% cases. The rest of us will be watching Netflix in our robo-taxis.
Yes. Fuck the 5%. They don’t matter.
Sometime later - “Hmmm. We only implemented 50 of those ‘Fuck the 5%’ policies. Why is everyone hopping mad?”
Only annoying 5% of the population at a time would make this one of the most popular ideas in decades.
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
On top of that. All the major car companies, and many large tech companies, are very keen on turning private transport into something you subscribe to rather than own, which to extent they already do with car financing.
"Very keen on turning private transport into something you subscribe to rather than own"
The growing trend towards owning nothing and renting everything is worrying. I now "rent" Microsoft office by the month at a far higher cost than I used to pay for a one off license. (I gave up on Adobe and use freeware alternatives now).
I noticed Spotify upping the price of their subscription last month, I've been paying them a tenner or whatever it is since the year dot, which must add up to about £1800-ish of payments, yet if I cancel, I own nothing. Not a single single, let alone an album.
While this has been the case for software as a service for donkey's years and is less than idea, it's even more worrying to see it creep into areas it has no right being in. Like heated seats on your car.
You can still buy the single-purchase Office, not Office 365
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
On top of that. All the major car companies, and many large tech companies, are very keen on turning private transport into something you subscribe to rather than own, which to extent they already do with car financing.
"Very keen on turning private transport into something you subscribe to rather than own"
The growing trend towards owning nothing and renting everything is worrying. I now "rent" Microsoft office by the month at a far higher cost than I used to pay for a one off license. (I gave up on Adobe and use freeware alternatives now).
I noticed Spotify upping the price of their subscription last month, I've been paying them a tenner or whatever it is since the year dot, which must add up to about £1800-ish of payments, yet if I cancel, I own nothing. Not a single single, let alone an album.
While this has been the case for software as a service for donkey's years and is less than idea, it's even more worrying to see it creep into areas it has no right being in. Like heated seats on your car.
You can still buy the single-purchase Office, not Office 365
You can, but it has now got so pricey its worth switching to Office 365, in my experience.
The growing trend towards owning nothing and renting everything is worrying. I now "rent" Microsoft office by the month at a far higher cost than I used to pay for a one off license. (I gave up on Adobe and use freeware alternatives now).
I noticed Spotify upping the price of their subscription last month, I've been paying them a tenner or whatever it is since the year dot, which must add up to about £1800-ish of payments, yet if I cancel, I own nothing. Not a single single, let alone an album.
While this has been the case for software as a service for donkey's years and is less than idea, it's even more worrying to see it creep into areas it has no right being in. Like heated seats on your car.
TaaS/MaaS, Transportation/Mobility as a Service. Yes the people who make cars want to deliver this because they think they will make a lot more money, primarily because it ought to be a better utilisation of a fleet of vehicles that currently spend 95% of their time parked.
Cars eventually became much cheaper than running horses and a carriage.
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
That's quite easy to answer. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess that taxis are about 5% of cars on the road. Now imagine a world where taxis are 95% of the cars on the road. The convenience factor would be far better. When essentially every vehicle is self-driving, electric, and immediately summonable the whole argument about the benefits of owning and driving a car will look utterly different.
"Immediately summonable"? To where?
Will it carry a bicycle? Camping gear? Will I get fined if I stink it out with fish and chips?
Will the AI driver be able to get out and open the gates on a private off-road track?
Those are the 5% cases. The rest of us will be watching Netflix in our robo-taxis.
There are specific times when our current use of cars becomes a problem [putting aside pollution as eventually solveable].
Perhaps we just need to solve school transport and "the commute" rather than reinventing personal transport for all?
The growing trend towards owning nothing and renting everything is worrying. I now "rent" Microsoft office by the month at a far higher cost than I used to pay for a one off license. (I gave up on Adobe and use freeware alternatives now).
I noticed Spotify upping the price of their subscription last month, I've been paying them a tenner or whatever it is since the year dot, which must add up to about £1800-ish of payments, yet if I cancel, I own nothing. Not a single single, let alone an album.
While this has been the case for software as a service for donkey's years and is less than idea, it's even more worrying to see it creep into areas it has no right being in. Like heated seats on your car.
TaaS/MaaS, Transportation/Mobility as a Service. Yes the people who make cars want to deliver this because they think they will make a lot more money, primarily because it ought to be a better utilisation of a fleet of vehicles that currently spend 95% of their time parked.
Having 100 people pay for your product and then not use it 95% of the time seems a far better way to make money than having 100 people only pay for 1 of your product and then share it. This is why Netflix are clamping down on shared accounts.
Comments
My guess is not. (Legally it's not needed)
Compared to the price of running a car in the 1970s, cars today are ridiculously cheap.
When we are all running electric cars on overnight surplus energy and there's much less to maintain than on a ICE car, why won't they continue to get cheaper? Electric cars aren't cheaper now, but in 20 years?
If we aren't living in extreme poverty, people will want their own transport. Taxis are inconvenient and rubbish now - why does having an AI driver instead of a meat based one make any difference?
I think you are missing that private vehicles are an inefficient and sub-optimal form of transport in urban settings. Which is why their use will need to reduce.
Every traffic jam I have ever seen consists of motor vehicles holding up other motor vehicles.
He isn't going to come anywhere near winning an election.
But the pro car message gives him, perhaps, 5% more than 25% - it converts the likes of my father, proud driver and car owner, a reason to vote for someone who he considers to the left of Tony Blair economically.
It gives the Tories back some don't knows.
Interestingly, the only real, albeit small, victories for the Blue meanies in the past few months have been car related. Cambridge council by election, and Uxbridge. Oxford could well surprise.
The inside is another matter, mostly due to tweenagers eating biscuits.
Correcting a fucked clear coat, if it's not too far gone, is a lot of work and you're knocking a couple of grand off the value at least. Unless you can offload it onto to some mug who can't judge the fuckedness state of clear coats.
There's quite a few towns (25 according to wikipedia) with a population of over 20000 which don't have a railway station. these could be better served (although some in Norfolk may be a challenge). but there are also places like Newcastle-under-lyme which could/should be served despite having a population of over 75000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Great_Britain#Most_populous_towns_without_rail_services
Don’t they know we live in a world where we throw everything away after 2 weeks?
Don't think I've ever cleaned mine.
In 1390, the transport system had all the choices and convenience needed.
Sounds like a great vision. Spenny, though, but I'm sure the cost will fall over time.
No need to bother repaiting the dents - it keeps the anal types well clear.
That said, when I owned a car, I rather enjoyed cleaning it. It's one of those somewhat fun chores which isn't too time-consuming (unless you want it to be), provides some light exercise and a visible result.
PB is a useful reminder that there are a multitude of different ways to live...
Since 1995 it has had a light rail station on the Robin Hood line that was running at 400k passengers per annum pre-Covid. 22/23 numbers not yet available. 21/22 was 250k.
Anyhoo - things to do. Have a good day, all.
https://twitter.com/stanvowales/status/1685902658580647936
Some people just like clean and neat.
I also don't see my car as an extension of my psyche, or a reflection of who I am. It's a car.
Australia won't go for the win imo they'll be happy to have a draw - 1.8 for Aus last night always seemed too short to me on a day 5 pitch.
The left it sitting for a long while (month or so) under a tree, in the street. Don’t know what it was, but the pollen/whatever fall was reddish. When it rotten/dissolved in the rain, it fucked the paintwork.
Very close, and weather dependant
It might fray a bit before it reaches London but it isn't looking good.
Australia 2.44
Draw 5.1
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/cricket/test-matches/england-v-australia-betting-32503518
On top of that. All the major car companies, and many large tech companies, are very keen on turning private transport into something you subscribe to rather than own, which to extent they already do with car financing.
Politically it's interesting because of all the things we do on a day to day basis it probably imposes more negative externalities, global and local, than anything else. Increasingly I think the political left-right divide comes down to whether you take the idea of these externalities seriously or not. The right can get a lot of mileage out of telling their voters that they can do what they want and any negative effects on other people are unimportant. The danger for the left is that they overestimate the extent to which people are willing, or feel able to afford, to care.
Half-out in 2024.
Looking after it a bit doesn’t seem mad to me.
Why bother ?
It is the one area (and I can't for the life of me think of any other) where actually the Cons might be able to claw some votes back and it seems that Lab are handing these to them on a plate.
Will it carry a bicycle? Camping gear? Will I get fined if I stink it out with fish and chips?
Will the AI driver be able to get out and open the gates on a private off-road track?
Disaster waiting to happen.
Dont get me wrong, I have a car and use it plenty, but I am well aware of its negative side effects. It's all about finding the right balance, and shaping people's incentives. Personally I think we have further to go in discouraging car use and making urban environments safer for pedestrians and cyclists, especially children.
Sometime later - “Hmmm. We only implemented 50 of those ‘Fuck the 5%’ policies. Why is everyone hopping mad?”
Such as BMW trying to charge $18 a month for heated seats https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscriptions-microtransactions-heated-seats-feature
Or having to "jailbreak" your John Deere if you dare to take it to a third party for repair - https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-tractor-jailbreak-defcon-2022/
The growing trend towards owning nothing and renting everything is worrying. I now "rent" Microsoft office by the month at a far higher cost than I used to pay for a one off license. (I gave up on Adobe and use freeware alternatives now).
I noticed Spotify upping the price of their subscription last month, I've been paying them a tenner or whatever it is since the year dot, which must add up to about £1800-ish of payments, yet if I cancel, I own nothing. Not a single single, let alone an album.
While this has been the case for software as a service for donkey's years and is less than idea, it's even more worrying to see it creep into areas it has no right being in. Like heated seats on your car.
Announcements of 100 new oil & gas licences are designed to provoke.
https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/27/feverish-bbc-reporting-on-european-heatwaves-debunked-by-actual-temperature-readings/
Sunak's strategy in the first 9 months of his govt was utterly flawed.
Cancel this, axe this, tax till the pips squeak.
Finally someone in No. 10 seems to have noticed this doesn't work politically or economically.
Perhaps we just need to solve school transport and "the commute" rather than reinventing personal transport for all?