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Talking balls. The UK’s new generational divide – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,217
edited August 2023 in General
Talking balls. The UK’s new generational divide – politicalbetting.com

What colour is a tennis ball?All Britons:Green: 32%Yellow: 64%Aged 18-24:Green: 66%Yellow: 30%Aged 65+:Green: 5%Yellow: 89%https://t.co/OUOysNm5TD pic.twitter.com/JFUpH4c4vf

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    This is where the culture wars will be won and lost.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Second.

    Ed Balls.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    @Pagan2

    These are estimates, so I'd take them with a pinch of salt (albeit the Migration Observatory has a pretty good record):



    They are also for net migration. So, you can still have large numbers of immigrants arriving, even if the overall numbers are negative.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    Evening all :)

    Well, quite.

    I'm not sure I got many things right when I was 18-24 - it's the 5% of over 65s who think a tennis ball is green which is of much greater concern. Repeat the survey in 20 years and see how the demographic has changed.

    Being wrong about most things is the prerogative of the young - and most majorities as well.
  • Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    rcs1000 said:

    @Pagan2

    These are estimates, so I'd take them with a pinch of salt (albeit the Migration Observatory has a pretty good record):



    They are also for net migration. So, you can still have large numbers of immigrants arriving, even if the overall numbers are negative.

    It's also worth remembering the big gap between the March and June 2000 numbers was largely the consequence of Covid.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    rcs1000 said:

    @Pagan2

    These are estimates, so I'd take them with a pinch of salt (albeit the Migration Observatory has a pretty good record):



    They are also for net migration. So, you can still have large numbers of immigrants arriving, even if the overall numbers are negative.

    Fair enough I was curious and I guess fits the net emigration to the eu bill, though not convinced because many also said eu migrants were only coming for a few years only so that also fits the bill. Harder for bar staff to come over and work with the wage requirement for a visa so as people have left and we have let less from the eu in
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,415
    Who. The fuck. Paid. For that poll?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256

    This is where the culture wars will be won and lost.

    Is it not that the balls used to be yellower than they are now ?
    I couldn't really say one way or the other these days - depending on lighting conditions and background, you can see it either way.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    This thread and header contain more bollocks than a Nadine Dorries picnic in the outback.

    Everyone knows that tennis balls are white (well, sort of off-white).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    edited July 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @Pagan2

    These are estimates, so I'd take them with a pinch of salt (albeit the Migration Observatory has a pretty good record):



    They are also for net migration. So, you can still have large numbers of immigrants arriving, even if the overall numbers are negative.

    Fair enough I was curious and I guess fits the net emigration to the eu bill, though not convinced because many also said eu migrants were only coming for a few years only so that also fits the bill. Harder for bar staff to come over and work with the wage requirement for a visa so as people have left and we have let less from the eu in
    It's interesting that - until 2003 - net EU migration was negligible. And then the EU's Eastern European expansion (that the UK had championed) happened, and it went through the roof.

    Indeed, you can see why we got it so wrong. We looked at the chart, and thought, hey, we're not such a big draw, why should things change?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256
    Carnyx said:

    This thread and header contain more bollocks than a Nadine Dorries picnic in the outback.

    Everyone knows that tennis balls are white (well, sort of off-white).

    Your TV must be really old.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    There are High Streets and there are High Streets.

    East Ham is atypical in that it serves a community which usually walks or buses to its shops. For that reason it has proven more resilient than other areas - yes. we have plenty of Romanian food shops and bookies but other shops survive - the 89p shop didn't, neither did M&S or Starbucks but we have a very impressive branch of the State Bank of India.

    It serves a community which shops little and often - daily for many.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    viewcode said:

    Who. The fuck. Paid. For that poll?

    Nobody.

    YouGov added it to their questions so they'd get a Tweet out of it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    A coming influx of Chinese electric cars represents a security risk as they could be remotely controlled to “paralyse” Britain, according to the head of the industry’s professional body.

    “Britons face “major security issues” from Chinese cars, warned Professor Jim Saker, president of the Institute of the Motor Industry.

    “In a report due to be shared with car makers and regulators, Prof Saker said there was “no way” of stopping Chinese cars coming under remote control.

    “He said: “The car manufacturer may be in Shanghai and could stop 100,000 to 300,000 cars across Europe thus paralysing a country.”

    “While regulators can test samples of cars for spyware or other security vulnerabilities, testing thousands of vehicles is not feasible, he said.

    “A similar frailty of testing samples allowed Volkswagen to cheat emissions tests ahead of the Dieselgate scandal.

    “Up to 30 new electric vehicle brands are eyeing up the UK car market, most of them Chinese.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/07/30/chinese-electric-car-invasion-paralyse-britain-jim-saker/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    This thread and header contain more bollocks than a Nadine Dorries picnic in the outback.

    Everyone knows that tennis balls are white (well, sort of off-white).

    Your TV must be really old.
    It isn't. I can see the colours on the D. Attenborough programmes.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,415
    If you go to the EPOP (Elections, Politics and Opinion Polling) conference, they usually have a pub quiz. If you win they give you a certificate entitling you to a free YouGov question. Or at least they did: I haven't gone for years because it clashes with RSS. I can't help thinking somebody found theirs in a drawer, realised that it only had a few weeks left and picked the daftest poll they could think of.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256
    Trump calls for conditioning Ukraine aid on congressional Biden probes
    https://twitter.com/postpolitics/status/1685442342000410624

    Wasn't he impeached for pretty well that ?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    edited July 2023

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work. You can see that from the consultation response postcodes - make sure your council collects both home address and workplace.

    It boils down to an inverse NIMBYism, I suppose.
    If you cannot drive an SUV through one of these new LTNs, what about an ambulance or fire engine, or do the bollards and planters magically disappear on seeing a blue light? What about delivery vans for your online shopping?
    LTNs have had no negative impacts on response times. The whole point is to reduce traffic, which is fantastic for emergency services. A deliberate confusion by anti-LTN folk is that they "ban cars". They do not.

    The single best thing in London for response times is fully segregated two-way cycle lanes - you can chuck an Ambulance down one, skipping the traffic and the cyclists just lift the bikes onto the pavement.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    Nigelb said:

    Trump calls for conditioning Ukraine aid on congressional Biden probes
    https://twitter.com/postpolitics/status/1685442342000410624

    Wasn't he impeached for pretty well that ?

    Yup.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144
    Sandpit said:

    A coming influx of Chinese electric cars represents a security risk as they could be remotely controlled to “paralyse” Britain, according to the head of the industry’s professional body.

    “Britons face “major security issues” from Chinese cars, warned Professor Jim Saker, president of the Institute of the Motor Industry.

    “In a report due to be shared with car makers and regulators, Prof Saker said there was “no way” of stopping Chinese cars coming under remote control.

    “He said: “The car manufacturer may be in Shanghai and could stop 100,000 to 300,000 cars across Europe thus paralysing a country.”

    “While regulators can test samples of cars for spyware or other security vulnerabilities, testing thousands of vehicles is not feasible, he said.

    “A similar frailty of testing samples allowed Volkswagen to cheat emissions tests ahead of the Dieselgate scandal.

    “Up to 30 new electric vehicle brands are eyeing up the UK car market, most of them Chinese.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/07/30/chinese-electric-car-invasion-paralyse-britain-jim-saker/

    Why is it that people living in petro-states or working in the fossil fuel industry are so anti "carbon zero"? It beats me.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work. You can see that from the consultation response postcodes - make sure your council collects both home address and workplace.

    It boils down to an inverse NIMBYism, I suppose.
    If you cannot drive an SUV through one of these new LTNs, what about an ambulance or fire engine, or do the bollards and planters magically disappear on seeing a blue light? What about delivery vans for your online shopping?
    LTNs have had no negative impacts on response times. The whole point is to reduce traffic, which is fantastic for emergency services. A deliberate confusion by anti-LTN folk is that they "ban cars". They do not.

    The single best thing in London for response times is fully segregated two-way cycle lanes - you can chuck an Ambulance down one, skipping the traffic and the cyclists just lift the bikes onto the pavement.
    It’s a ridiculous debate. Everywhere you go in Europe where there are similar arrangements the impression is overwhelmingly positive and all the residents love it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work. You can see that from the consultation response postcodes - make sure your council collects both home address and workplace.

    It boils down to an inverse NIMBYism, I suppose.
    If you cannot drive an SUV through one of these new LTNs, what about an ambulance or fire engine, or do the bollards and planters magically disappear on seeing a blue light? What about delivery vans for your online shopping?
    LTNs have had no negative impacts on response times. The whole point is to reduce traffic, which is fantastic for emergency services.

    The single best thing in London for response times is fully segregated two-way cycle lanes - you can chuck an Ambulance down one, skipping the traffic and the cyclists just lift the bikes onto the pavement.
    And if the emergency services (or delivery vans) need to reach a house inside the LTN? It's not like they were rat-running in the first place.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work. You can see that from the consultation response postcodes - make sure your council collects both home address and workplace.

    It boils down to an inverse NIMBYism, I suppose.
    If you cannot drive an SUV through one of these new LTNs, what about an ambulance or fire engine, or do the bollards and planters magically disappear on seeing a blue light? What about delivery vans for your online shopping?
    LTNs have had no negative impacts on response times. The whole point is to reduce traffic, which is fantastic for emergency services. A deliberate confusion by anti-LTN folk is that they "ban cars". They do not.

    The single best thing in London for response times is fully segregated two-way cycle lanes - you can chuck an Ambulance down one, skipping the traffic and the cyclists just lift the bikes onto the pavement.
    It’s a ridiculous debate. Everywhere you go in Europe where there are similar arrangements the impression is overwhelmingly positive and all the residents love it.
    But that would be admitting that furriners not only do things differently but sometimes better. See the reactions on PB when the Scots decide to take devolution seriously, on such things as the smoking ban, etc.
  • rcs1000 said:

    @Pagan2

    These are estimates, so I'd take them with a pinch of salt (albeit the Migration Observatory has a pretty good record):



    They are also for net migration. So, you can still have large numbers of immigrants arriving, even if the overall numbers are negative.

    I think that's a bit of a "reversion to mean" impact though.

    There was a surge in people migrating to the EU firstly after the last expansion round, then while free movement was still an option, "get in before it ends". So its only natural that it would fall afterwards. The negative is so small that -100k doesn't even appear on the chart and revisions could probably see that eliminated (especially since original data has rather consistently underestimated immigrants, which is why the 3 million EU citizens became about 6 million from memory).

    Over time the net migration figure should revert to a positive figure, a smaller positive due to frictions, but still positive.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Huh. I don't think I've come across someone is anti-LTN because they are bad for Amazon before. Screw local business.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,477
    viewcode said:

    This header would be immensely interesting if i) I played tennis, ii) I watched tennis on television, iii) owned a television, and iv) cared.

    😁😁😁😀

    v) wasn't colour blind.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    viewcode said:

    This header would be immensely interesting if i) I played tennis, ii) I watched tennis on television, iii) owned a television, and iv) cared.

    😁😁😁😀

    Yes. I thought we were getting an interesting thread on how most people are thick and the young are the thickest of all. Pfff!

    On the other hand, I definitely see green which makes me young so 🤷‍♂️

    And now for my billionaire wine and cheese. Later
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Huh. I don't think I've come across someone is anti-LTN because they are bad for Amazon before. Screw local business.
    Or going online to Amazon because they don't realise that local shops have things called "telephones", so you can find out if they have stuff in stock. Invented by Mr Bell and all.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144

    rcs1000 said:

    @Pagan2

    These are estimates, so I'd take them with a pinch of salt (albeit the Migration Observatory has a pretty good record):



    They are also for net migration. So, you can still have large numbers of immigrants arriving, even if the overall numbers are negative.

    I think that's a bit of a "reversion to mean" impact though.

    There was a surge in people migrating to the EU firstly after the last expansion round, then while free movement was still an option, "get in before it ends". So its only natural that it would fall afterwards. The negative is so small that -100k doesn't even appear on the chart and revisions could probably see that eliminated (especially since original data has rather consistently underestimated immigrants, which is why the 3 million EU citizens became about 6 million from memory).

    Over time the net migration figure should revert to a positive figure, a smaller positive due to frictions, but still positive.
    The net outflow of EU citizens is partly countered by the return of aging expats from the costs. Quite significant outflow now of EU citizens that I can see. Our Greek doctors are now mostly either home or in Germany, our Portuguese nurses in France. We are carrying some vacancies but have also recruited from Egypt and Kerala respectively.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    edited July 2023

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work. You can see that from the consultation response postcodes - make sure your council collects both home address and workplace.

    It boils down to an inverse NIMBYism, I suppose.
    If you cannot drive an SUV through one of these new LTNs, what about an ambulance or fire engine, or do the bollards and planters magically disappear on seeing a blue light? What about delivery vans for your online shopping?
    LTNs have had no negative impacts on response times. The whole point is to reduce traffic, which is fantastic for emergency services.

    The single best thing in London for response times is fully segregated two-way cycle lanes - you can chuck an Ambulance down one, skipping the traffic and the cyclists just lift the bikes onto the pavement.
    And if the emergency services (or delivery vans) need to reach a house inside the LTN? It's not like they were rat-running in the first place.
    They have keys to the bollards. Or they mount the pavement (this is actually how the fire service skip the one on Waverley Bridge in Edinburgh).

    The problem with making up reasons why LTNs are bad is that there is always an academic from the Netherlands who debunked it about 30 years ago. Here is a paper on London: https://findingspress.org/article/23568-the-impact-of-2020-low-traffic-neighbourhoods-on-fire-service-emergency-response-times-in-london-uk
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    Anyway: I am going to WALK to the pub and the eat a VENISON burger.

    bye
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    A coming influx of Chinese electric cars represents a security risk as they could be remotely controlled to “paralyse” Britain, according to the head of the industry’s professional body.

    “Britons face “major security issues” from Chinese cars, warned Professor Jim Saker, president of the Institute of the Motor Industry.

    “In a report due to be shared with car makers and regulators, Prof Saker said there was “no way” of stopping Chinese cars coming under remote control.

    “He said: “The car manufacturer may be in Shanghai and could stop 100,000 to 300,000 cars across Europe thus paralysing a country.”

    “While regulators can test samples of cars for spyware or other security vulnerabilities, testing thousands of vehicles is not feasible, he said.

    “A similar frailty of testing samples allowed Volkswagen to cheat emissions tests ahead of the Dieselgate scandal.

    “Up to 30 new electric vehicle brands are eyeing up the UK car market, most of them Chinese.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/07/30/chinese-electric-car-invasion-paralyse-britain-jim-saker/

    Why is it that people living in petro-states or working in the fossil fuel industry are so anti "carbon zero"? It beats me.
    Not anti “carbon zero”, but anti millions of cheap Chinese remote-controlled electric cars.

    I live 20 miles from the world’s largest solar energy park. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_bin_Rashid_Al_Maktoum_Solar_Park
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,415
    edited July 2023
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Huh. I don't think I've come across someone is anti-LTN because they are bad for Amazon before. Screw local business.
    They're not bad for Amazon though. 🤦‍♂️

    The person buying a good through an app doesn't give a shit how it gets to them. They click "buy now" on their app or website and it appears the next day, as if by magic. The shopper doesn't care about the Amazon driver's route they have to take. Make them take a detour, and they'll have to take the detour, but they'll still get the delivery next day either way and there's no price variance making you pay more for delivery if the driver's route to you was longer either.

    If you implement restrictions due to courier vehicles, then that is cutting off your nose to spite your face as those courier vehicles will still be there as the person shopping through Amazon will continue to do so. All you're doing is maybe inconveniencing the courier driver and making them increase their mileage to get around the restrictions.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work. You can see that from the consultation response postcodes - make sure your council collects both home address and workplace.

    It boils down to an inverse NIMBYism, I suppose.
    If you cannot drive an SUV through one of these new LTNs, what about an ambulance or fire engine, or do the bollards and planters magically disappear on seeing a blue light? What about delivery vans for your online shopping?
    LTNs have had no negative impacts on response times. The whole point is to reduce traffic, which is fantastic for emergency services.

    The single best thing in London for response times is fully segregated two-way cycle lanes - you can chuck an Ambulance down one, skipping the traffic and the cyclists just lift the bikes onto the pavement.
    And if the emergency services (or delivery vans) need to reach a house inside the LTN? It's not like they were rat-running in the first place.
    They go in one way, do whatever they need to do, then go out the same way they came in.

    All LTNs do is retrofit culs de sac to road networks that were put in place before the idea was invented. There are a couple of car filters near me (yes, even in Romford). Main road traffic stays on the main road (which happens to be called... Main Road), but it's not possible to jump any queues that build up by cutting through residential roads.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144
    Incidentally, I have been looking at next week's odds on Leicester vs Coventry on the opening weekend of the Championship.

    I think the odds of 11/2 on Coventry are very good. They narrowly missed out on the playoff final, while we have lost our most creative players and not yet replaced them.

    I have a purple drinking voucher on the Sky Blues.
  • Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Yes, I completely agree that taxes are far too high on businesses. NNDR in particular is quite a pernicious tax, that punishes physical retail except of course charity shops which is why so many of them have sprung up as a form of tax avoidance too.

    By doing away with the need for physical shops, Amazon have done away with the need to pay NNDR. Perfectly legal tax avoidance.

    Want to tackle the problem? Tackle it at source, the fact our taxes are too high.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    The 'review of LTN' thing.
    In my field many 'professionals' and trade organisations have given up on any attempt at impartiality or objectivity, and have got in to the habit of deriding opposition to LTN's as 'conspiracy theorists' and 'misinformation', egging each other on and basically creating their own echo chamber in a sort of pseudo FBPE model.
    It has been interesting to watch the horror unfold in some circles that the government might actually be listening to the people.


  • Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Yes, I completely agree that taxes are far too high on businesses. NNDR in particular is quite a pernicious tax, that punishes physical retail except of course charity shops which is why so many of them have sprung up as a form of tax avoidance too.

    By doing away with the need for physical shops, Amazon have done away with the need to pay NNDR. Perfectly legal tax avoidance.

    Want to tackle the problem? Tackle it at source, the fact our taxes are too high.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159

    This is where the culture wars will be won and lost.

    The old think their passports are blue, whereas the young can see that they are black.
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work. You can see that from the consultation response postcodes - make sure your council collects both home address and workplace.

    It boils down to an inverse NIMBYism, I suppose.
    If you cannot drive an SUV through one of these new LTNs, what about an ambulance or fire engine, or do the bollards and planters magically disappear on seeing a blue light? What about delivery vans for your online shopping?
    LTNs have had no negative impacts on response times. The whole point is to reduce traffic, which is fantastic for emergency services.

    The single best thing in London for response times is fully segregated two-way cycle lanes - you can chuck an Ambulance down one, skipping the traffic and the cyclists just lift the bikes onto the pavement.
    And if the emergency services (or delivery vans) need to reach a house inside the LTN? It's not like they were rat-running in the first place.
    They go in one way, do whatever they need to do, then go out the same way they came in.

    All LTNs do is retrofit culs de sac to road networks that were put in place before the idea was invented. There are a couple of car filters near me (yes, even in Romford). Main road traffic stays on the main road (which happens to be called... Main Road), but it's not possible to jump any queues that build up by cutting through residential roads.
    Retrofitting through roads by building by-passes to those roads is eminently reasonable.

    Retrofitting through roads but not bothering to build a new alternative route is not.

    The problem is the lazy attitude of trying to do the latter and telling commuters not to drive.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Perhaps tennis balls used to be yellow and are now green? I am so old I remember them being white. Not an interesting issue, esp outside of Wimbledon fortnight.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,865
    IanB2 said:

    This is where the culture wars will be won and lost.

    The old think their passports are blue, whereas the young can see that they are black.
    The misunderstanding of what "Navy Blue" means is a fascinating microcosm of the brexit culture wars.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,069
    They are a sort of yellowy green mix
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,937
    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FF43 said:

    Rishi Sunak is planning to restrict councils from imposing 20mph speed limits as part of his new shift against green policies and traffic schemes

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/30/rishi-sunak-councils-20mph-speed-limit-low-traffic-neighbourhoods-ltns

    Should add the much derided Cones Hotline had at least some benefit for mankind.

    Being able to drive at a decent speed has a benefit for mankind too.

    20mph should be for school zones and heavily residential zones only, not a default everywhere.
    What about High Streets? If they are as busy as you want them to be, there will be large numbers of pedestrians crossing the road and junctions to get to the pubs/shops.

    I'm not actually a big fan of 20mph limits. I'd much prefer traffic calming measures like trees, tighter/narrower junctions, speed bumps, segregated cycle lanes lanes etc.

    20mph (or even 10mph) then comes naturally, not just for the law-abiding among us.
    High Streets it depends for me. Are they used as the only available through road? If so, 30mph with fences to segregate pedestrians from vehicles.

    Is there an alternative (by-pass) through road available so the High Street is purely for people wanting to go to the High Street and not through it? Then 20mph and relatively pedestrianised is entirely reasonable.

    Again, if you want to turn an existing through road into a lower traffic area then build a by-pass (which can potentially go at a faster speed limit like 50mph instead) and there's no harm in turning the current through road to an LTN.
    You want to fence in pedestrians? Is this the 1970's speaking?

    I think a 20mph limit is more important if there is no alternative. Nairn, in the Highlands, has had to do this because of the number of HGVs running through areas with lots of pedestrians.

    Perhaps the speed limit can revert to 30mph once a bypass is built ;)
    No, not fenced in, just fences to segregate cars and pedestrians so children don't accidentally run onto the road by mistake. That's a positive for pedestrians, not a negative.

    Obviously no fences at zebra crossings, or traffic lights.

    Why didn't Nairn bother to build a by-pass? Probably because of attitudes like yours that commuters should just not bother driving to work.
    Interesting stuff about different philosophies.

    (Without getting into LTNs and consequent traffic transfer vs traffic evaporation vs modal shift).

    I take the approach that for pedestrians and motor vehicles to mix in the same environment, the principle is to restrict motors to an extent where everyone else is comfortable with them.

    Which is from the other end to 'put in railings to keep the pedestrians out of the way of the motor vehicles'.

    The only place I can find which justifies such railings are where pedestrian entrances emerge into a footway - eg by a narrow gate in a wall out of a school, and the children may rush out without seeing due to the poor sightlines.

    But that is lipstick on a pig of a design - the better way is for the exit to be designed to have clear sightlines so that kids can see vehicles and vice versa, so risk is designed out.

    Further, back in 2008 TFL did some research into pedestrian railings at pedestrian crossings on road junctions (90 crossings, 70 junctions), and found that simply removing them all resulted in a major reduction in casualties from collisions. Really interesting work:

    The results showed that following the removal of railings at the 70 sites there was a statistically
    significant fall of 56% (43 to 19) in the number of collisions involving pedestrians who were killed
    or seriously injured. There was also a fall of 48% (109 to 57) in the number of KSI collisions for all
    users. Further analysis was undertaken in order to put these figures into a wider context. In the 6
    to 3 year period before removal at these sites (when railings were retained), KSI collisions fell by
    7% and 3% respectively. On the whole TLRN during the 3 year period after the removal of the
    railings, KSI collisions fell by 14% and 19% respectively.

    https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pedestrian-railings-removal-report.pdf
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    Miklosvar said:

    Perhaps tennis balls used to be yellow and are now green? I am so old I remember them being white. Not an interesting issue, esp outside of Wimbledon fortnight.

    My wife and I played mixed tennis, as partners, in Edinburgh in 1964 and the balls were white

    Indeed it would be interesting to know when green and yellow were introduced
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work. You can see that from the consultation response postcodes - make sure your council collects both home address and workplace.

    It boils down to an inverse NIMBYism, I suppose.
    If you cannot drive an SUV through one of these new LTNs, what about an ambulance or fire engine, or do the bollards and planters magically disappear on seeing a blue light? What about delivery vans for your online shopping?
    LTNs have had no negative impacts on response times. The whole point is to reduce traffic, which is fantastic for emergency services.

    The single best thing in London for response times is fully segregated two-way cycle lanes - you can chuck an Ambulance down one, skipping the traffic and the cyclists just lift the bikes onto the pavement.
    And if the emergency services (or delivery vans) need to reach a house inside the LTN? It's not like they were rat-running in the first place.
    They go in one way, do whatever they need to do, then go out the same way they came in.

    All LTNs do is retrofit culs de sac to road networks that were put in place before the idea was invented. There are a couple of car filters near me (yes, even in Romford). Main road traffic stays on the main road (which happens to be called... Main Road), but it's not possible to jump any queues that build up by cutting through residential roads.
    Retrofitting through roads by building by-passes to those roads is eminently reasonable.

    Retrofitting through roads but not bothering to build a new alternative route is not.

    The problem is the lazy attitude of trying to do the latter and telling commuters not to drive.
    But the sensible route to use, the Main Road, is still there. Historically, it's where the traffic flow has been. it's a bit wider than other roads, there's a decent sized verge between the road and the pavement, the houses are properly set back from the road.

    The problem is that, sometimes, a queue forms. And previously, a number of sharp eyed, sharp elbowed drivers turned off the main road, drove through a parallel estate, along narrower roads with no verges and houses much closer to the roads. Yes, they're labelled roads on the map, but they are much less suitable for through traffic. And people cutting in and out of the main road interrupts the flow for drivers who stay on the main road. Tragedy of the commons- it's in the interest of individuals to take cutthroughs, but it makes things worse for everyone else.

    All LTNs do is keep main road traffic on the main roads, rather than have it spill out onto roads that are a lot less suitable. And given that the whole area is built up, there's nowhere to put a bypass even if you wanted to.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    CatMan said:

    They are a sort of yellowy green mix

    CENTRIST DAD CLAXON
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,165
    IanB2 said:

    This is where the culture wars will be won and lost.

    The old think their passports are blue, whereas the young can see that they are black.
    Unionists (who do tend to be on Tena mailing lists) seem to think passports are this colour.







  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    edited July 2023

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,958
    edited July 2023
    The colour of the balls at Wimbledon was famously changed from white to yellow in 1986, because the poor quality of American TV at the time couldn't distinguish the white balls on the screen properly.

    https://www.espnfrontrow.com/2016/07/30-years-ago-this-summer-wimbledon-turned-yellow/

    "Vice President, Production, Jamie Reynolds, first worked at Wimbledon in 1980 and remembers the TV-unfriendly nature of the white balls.
    “They always turned green from grass stains,” he recalls. “They blended so much with the grass the visuals were compromised. Remember, there was no HD then!”
    Summing it up, the dean of the ESPN tennis team, Hall of Famer and ESPN tennis commentator Cliff Drysdale, simply said, “I can’t imagine playing without yellow balls.”"
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    Eabhal said:

    Anyway: I am going to WALK to the pub and the eat a VENISON burger.

    bye

    We had courgette fritters with zucchini alla scapece, zucchini salad, and - wait for it - courgette bread.

    I'm not sure but I think we may have a glut of courgettes.

    image
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,937

    Miklosvar said:

    Perhaps tennis balls used to be yellow and are now green? I am so old I remember them being white. Not an interesting issue, esp outside of Wimbledon fortnight.

    My wife and I played mixed tennis, as partners, in Edinburgh in 1964 and the balls were white

    Indeed it would be interesting to know when green and yellow were introduced
    Officially 1972 by the ITF to show up better on colour television.

    David Attenborough's fault, as he was the one who lobbied for Wimbledon to be on colour TV.

    The official colour is (I assume Pantone) #ccff00 and marked as “Fluorescent yellow or Electric lime.”
    the shade is listed as #ccff00 and marked as “Fluorescent yellow or Electric lime.”
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144
    darkage said:

    The 'review of LTN' thing.
    In my field many 'professionals' and trade organisations have given up on any attempt at impartiality or objectivity, and have got in to the habit of deriding opposition to LTN's as 'conspiracy theorists' and 'misinformation', egging each other on and basically creating their own echo chamber in a sort of pseudo FBPE model.
    It has been interesting to watch the horror unfold in some circles that the government might actually be listening to the people.


    Though there is a definite nutcase wing to the anti LTN movement.

    https://longreads.politicshome.com/road-warriors
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491
    edited July 2023
    I met a quite large apple pie today
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,958
    Miklosvar said:

    Perhaps tennis balls used to be yellow and are now green? I am so old I remember them being white. Not an interesting issue, esp outside of Wimbledon fortnight.

    Wouldn't green be a particularly stupid colour to choose for tennis balls on a grass surface?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806


    I met a quite large apple pie today

    It looks like it came off worse.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    I use a mobile purely as a phone nothing else and also a backup for my wired internet. When I am out I don't feel a need to be phonable frankly. They can leave a voice mail I use it purely like a landline. Why not have a landline, simple reason is I get less spam calls on a mobile than a land line.

    I have a 30 year old son and he said I was paranoid about giving info too, then I took his wow name and managed to dox him showing him every step of the way how to get his home address, phone number etc because he didn't think he was giving up info.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,079
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    My friend's father always used to insist he did not have a mobile phone, he had a portable phone.

  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Andy_JS said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Perhaps tennis balls used to be yellow and are now green? I am so old I remember them being white. Not an interesting issue, esp outside of Wimbledon fortnight.

    Wouldn't green be a particularly stupid colour to choose for tennis balls on a grass surface?
    VG point
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    EU migration would have likely fallen without Brexit .

    Ironically with more older Brits returning from the EU this will put more stress on the NHS . Freedom of movement allowed generally younger and healthier people into the UK .

    With the loss of FOM the UK will also now have less older people moving to EU countries .

    The new immigration from outside the EU will put more strain on services , that generally brings in more older people .

    The treasury figures clearly show that non EU migration is more costly to the country . Unfortunately facts died under the weight of the frenzy of EU bashing during the ref campaign .

    It really needed the Remain version of Farage to be blunt and politically incorrect with the public .

    You have a choice either mainly white Christian Europeans will need to fill the shortfall or mainly non-white non -Christians would.

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    What colour is a tennis ball when no-one is looking at it? is a much more interesting question.

    Pedant note: And, BTW, the YouGov question is void for uncertainty. Last time I played tennis they were off white. I have no doubt that at least one blue or red tennis ball has been produced, and so on.

    There is a skill in producing questions that are short, precise and unambiguous.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,958
    Nick Timothy selected as Tory candidate to replace Matt Hancock in West Suffolk.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    It’s notable how much harder it is to switch off the latest versions of mobile phones. They really want to keep you connected 24/7.

    Ideally, Apple and Samsung would like to prevent you from ever turning your device off. Like the telescreen you should only be able to turn the volume down.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,865
    nico679 said:

    EU migration would have likely fallen without Brexit .

    Ironically with more older Brits returning from the EU this will put more stress on the NHS . Freedom of movement allowed generally younger and healthier people into the UK .

    With the loss of FOM the UK will also now have less older people moving to EU countries .

    The new immigration from outside the EU will put more strain on services , that generally brings in more older people .

    The treasury figures clearly show that non EU migration is more costly to the country . Unfortunately facts died under the weight of the frenzy of EU bashing during the ref campaign .

    It really needed the Remain version of Farage to be blunt and politically incorrect with the public .

    You have a choice either mainly white Christian Europeans will need to fill the shortfall or mainly non-white non -Christians would.

    Not sure "Vote Remain. Keep Britain White." would have gone over well. Blunt and politically incorrect, though, I'll grant you that.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Andy_JS said:

    Nick Timothy selected as Tory candidate to replace Matt Hancock in West Suffolk.

    Tory prospects of a hold there take another dive.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    carnforth said:

    nico679 said:

    EU migration would have likely fallen without Brexit .

    Ironically with more older Brits returning from the EU this will put more stress on the NHS . Freedom of movement allowed generally younger and healthier people into the UK .

    With the loss of FOM the UK will also now have less older people moving to EU countries .

    The new immigration from outside the EU will put more strain on services , that generally brings in more older people .

    The treasury figures clearly show that non EU migration is more costly to the country . Unfortunately facts died under the weight of the frenzy of EU bashing during the ref campaign .

    It really needed the Remain version of Farage to be blunt and politically incorrect with the public .

    You have a choice either mainly white Christian Europeans will need to fill the shortfall or mainly non-white non -Christians would.

    Not sure "Vote Remain. Keep Britain White." would have gone over well. Blunt and politically incorrect, though, I'll grant you that.
    Personally I prefer people that are a net benefit to the country over choosing them because they are white christians or no white non christians...just me
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    Don't rely on Tor too much. Tormail got taken down.

    You are right about state capability. When they spy through microphones in switched off phones, do they steal energy from the battery or do they use kinetic energy as in an automatic watch or supply it some other how, or what? Presumably it isn't passive-only.

    Only an idiot voluntarily carries a smartphone about with them all the time.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    We have the definitive Daily Mail 2023 Woke List. These are people you despise ... or think thoughtful and well meaning, depending on your point of view. Obviously DM doesn't slant or take these people's quotes out of context:


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12352115/The-Mail-Sundays-Woke-List-2023-reveals-male-police-chief-wore-menopause-vest-BBC-presenter-said-Lionesses-white.html?ico=amp-comments-viewall&_gl=1*1hh1y4k*_ga*ZGdEaGdFc3NINHRtV19wdzFsQzlQbmNEUi1ZQUQzQ2ZJZm5KNmtRZTQxdUhmZGQ0Qmlpa0FqUXNzOWw2ME54Qg..#article-12352115
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    FF43 said:

    We have the definitive Daily Mail 2023 Woke List. These are people you despise ... or think thoughtful and well meaning, depending on your point of view. Obviously DM doesn't slant or take these people's quotes out of context:


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12352115/The-Mail-Sundays-Woke-List-2023-reveals-male-police-chief-wore-menopause-vest-BBC-presenter-said-Lionesses-white.html?ico=amp-comments-viewall&_gl=1*1hh1y4k*_ga*ZGdEaGdFc3NINHRtV19wdzFsQzlQbmNEUi1ZQUQzQ2ZJZm5KNmtRZTQxdUhmZGQ0Qmlpa0FqUXNzOWw2ME54Qg..#article-12352115

    I clicked on that to find out what a menopause vest was that the male police officer wore. Wish I hadn't.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
    Sorry are you serious do you know how echelon works?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,865
    edited July 2023

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
    Probably no-one, but when such ferreting is automatic and parallelisable, and therefore low-cost, the fear may be warranted.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited July 2023
    Why can't tennis be inconsistent like a proper sport?

    Golf balls are white. Or yellow - often easier to find except when the dandelions are out. Especially useful for easily distinguishing your ball when playing a fourball except when someone else is also playing a yellow ball. Or nowadays just about any colour under the sun especially if they have Volvik on them. Even a light bright green which is supposed to be distinguishable from green grass but really isn't. A dullish scarlet is worst of all for losing balls, especially when you are red-green colourblind. Or just a bad golfer.


  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    FF43 said:

    We have the definitive Daily Mail 2023 Woke List. These are people you despise ... or think thoughtful and well meaning, depending on your point of view. Obviously DM doesn't slant or take these people's quotes out of context:


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12352115/The-Mail-Sundays-Woke-List-2023-reveals-male-police-chief-wore-menopause-vest-BBC-presenter-said-Lionesses-white.html?ico=amp-comments-viewall&_gl=1*1hh1y4k*_ga*ZGdEaGdFc3NINHRtV19wdzFsQzlQbmNEUi1ZQUQzQ2ZJZm5KNmtRZTQxdUhmZGQ0Qmlpa0FqUXNzOWw2ME54Qg..#article-12352115

    Disappointing effort. They could at least have made it into a league table.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,069
    FF43 said:

    We have the definitive Daily Mail 2023 Woke List. These are people you despise ... or think thoughtful and well meaning, depending on your point of view. Obviously DM doesn't slant or take these people's quotes out of context:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12352115/The-Mail-Sundays-Woke-List-2023-reveals-male-police-chief-wore-menopause-vest-BBC-presenter-said-Lionesses-white.html?ico=amp-comments-viewall&_gl=1*1hh1y4k*_ga*ZGdEaGdFc3NINHRtV19wdzFsQzlQbmNEUi1ZQUQzQ2ZJZm5KNmtRZTQxdUhmZGQ0Qmlpa0FqUXNzOWw2ME54Qg..#article-12352115

    Saying the EU are punishing us by introducing new Visa rules for us when we insisted on them when we were still members is pretty funny too
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
    AI
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    Andy_JS said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Perhaps tennis balls used to be yellow and are now green? I am so old I remember them being white. Not an interesting issue, esp outside of Wimbledon fortnight.

    Wouldn't green be a particularly stupid colour to choose for tennis balls on a grass surface?
    Not all tennis is played on Grass, including three of the Slams.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    Whether the tennis ball is yellow or white depends on the reflected light, I think. We get shades of both in these photos, but tending more to yellow:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Wimbledon+tennis+ball&tbm=isch

  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Perhaps tennis balls used to be yellow and are now green? I am so old I remember them being white. Not an interesting issue, esp outside of Wimbledon fortnight.

    Wouldn't green be a particularly stupid colour to choose for tennis balls on a grass surface?
    Not all tennis is played on Grass, including three of the Slams.
    It's not stupid on grass either. Green is perceived by our species as having a very wide range of colours. It's clear why our perception has evolved that way.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
    Sorry are you serious do you know how echelon works?
    Sorry, let me put it another way: who's going to give a shit about me, what I do, where I go, who I meet, who I call, what I buy?

    Now, if I was a budding terrorist, well, maybe. Even if I were an ordinary criminal then yes maybe the state would be interested.

    But I'm not. No one is going to be the slightest bit interested in me.

    So I will keep carrying my smartphone round with me. I'm even going to keep it on. And I may use it from time to time to, make calls, look things up, pay for shopping, find my way around, listen to books, pay for car-parking... Amazing things smartphones.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    edited July 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    I look up what I want on Which and have a word with my local shops, who order up what I want (or not, but at least they have had a go). Often cheaper, and infinitely more reliable, than the big firms. Edit: still shuddering from the last time the local chap was on a long holiday and we got a washing machine from one of the big firms. Piping slashed by idiots unpacking it, or cracked from being stored out in that severe winter - I was never sure. And the second one vomited all over the floor. Had to threaten my credit card supplier's involvement and a court case before we got the damned thing removed and refunded. And by then the local chap was home anyway.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
    AI
    AI aye. But to what end? For what purpose?
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,920
    MattW said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Perhaps tennis balls used to be yellow and are now green? I am so old I remember them being white. Not an interesting issue, esp outside of Wimbledon fortnight.

    My wife and I played mixed tennis, as partners, in Edinburgh in 1964 and the balls were white

    Indeed it would be interesting to know when green and yellow were introduced
    Officially 1972 by the ITF to show up better on colour television.

    David Attenborough's fault, as he was the one who lobbied for Wimbledon to be on colour TV.

    The official colour is (I assume Pantone) #ccff00 and marked as “Fluorescent yellow or Electric lime.”
    the shade is listed as #ccff00 and marked as “Fluorescent yellow or Electric lime.”
    That suggests that I have not watched any tennis on television since 1972. Sounds about right.

    What colour are cricket balls nowadays?
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
    Sorry are you serious do you know how echelon works?
    Sorry, let me put it another way: who's going to give a shit about me, what I do, where I go, who I meet, who I call, what I buy?

    Now, if I was a budding terrorist, well, maybe. Even if I were an ordinary criminal then yes maybe the state would be interested.

    But I'm not. No one is going to be the slightest bit interested in me.

    So I will keep carrying my smartphone round with me. I'm even going to keep it on. And I may use it from time to time to, make calls, look things up, pay for shopping, find my way around, listen to books, pay for car-parking... Amazing things smartphones.
    As much of the population as possible is under surveillance. Would you ask the same question in China?

    Regarding your last paragraph, have you ever read a book about persuasion and salesmanship? Once a prospect has committed themselves, even if some of the promised benefits vanish they are liable to make up reasons to continue with the purchase. If you take a leaf through the Ed Snowden material you will see that this is, shall we say, on the curriculum at GCHQ. Could you not find your way around OK before you got a smartphone?
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
    AI
    AI aye. But to what end? For what purpose?
    Who knows? For whatever purpose the AI had been designed? To identify "undesirables customers" for the banks? To identify swing voters in elections to target for influencing? Or, more sinisterly, for it's own nefarious purposes?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    edited July 2023
    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
    Sorry are you serious do you know how echelon works?
    Sorry, let me put it another way: who's going to give a shit about me, what I do, where I go, who I meet, who I call, what I buy?

    Now, if I was a budding terrorist, well, maybe. Even if I were an ordinary criminal then yes maybe the state would be interested.

    But I'm not. No one is going to be the slightest bit interested in me.

    So I will keep carrying my smartphone round with me. I'm even going to keep it on. And I may use it from time to time to, make calls, look things up, pay for shopping, find my way around, listen to books, pay for car-parking... Amazing things smartphones.
    As much of the population as possible is under surveillance. Would you ask the same question in China?

    Regarding your last paragraph, have you ever read a book about persuasion and salesmanship? Once a prospect has committed themselves, even if some of the promised benefits vanish they are liable to make up reasons to continue with the purchase. If you take a leaf through the Ed Snowden material you will see that this is, shall we say, on the curriculum at GCHQ.
    We cannot keep track of absconded asylum seekers, you're not going to convince me that the state can track and analyse the data on 70m smartphones.

    Fair point about China, although I doubt their surveillance is all it's cracked up to be. But in any case, Britain is not China.

    The answer it to keep our society a relatively free democratic one governed by the rule of law; not to avoid smartphones.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    The 'review of LTN' thing.
    In my field many 'professionals' and trade organisations have given up on any attempt at impartiality or objectivity, and have got in to the habit of deriding opposition to LTN's as 'conspiracy theorists' and 'misinformation', egging each other on and basically creating their own echo chamber in a sort of pseudo FBPE model.
    It has been interesting to watch the horror unfold in some circles that the government might actually be listening to the people.


    Though there is a definite nutcase wing to the anti LTN movement.

    https://longreads.politicshome.com/road-warriors
    I challenge you to find a grassroots political movement that DOESN'T have a nutcase wing.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet the facts show one of his key pledges is starting to be met. Inflation fell to 7.9% this month.
    https://news.sky.com/story/inflation-falls-to-7-9-in-bigger-than-expected-drop-12922655

    Bush Snr also left Clinton with a falling deficit by raising taxes, even if it partly cost him the election as some of his base went to Buchanan in the GOP primaries and Perot in the main 1992 Presidential election

    The question isn't about the facts - it's about perceptions.

    Like ULEZ - everyone thinks it's going to cost them financially until they find out their car is compliant and then it becomes a non-issue.

    Even if inflation does fall (which it no doubt will), many voters will still see their costs rising especially as annual insurance renewals are put up 20% or more by gouging insurance companies and energy bills remain high while utility companies make enormous profits.
    Yes - I've been pointing out to a few people on X today that we have been building LTNs everywhere since the 1960s, and arguably since the 1930/40s. Plus that we have been applying them to existing housing areas since the 1970s to my personal knowledge.

    They don't like it very much !

    They seem to want to live in Open All Hours with nurse Gladice Emmanuel cycling along to soothe their knitted brows.
    Indeed. The anti-LTN campaigners in Oxford generally live or work in historic LTNs of the type you describe. The guy from "Reconnecting Oxford" lives in a cul-de-sac estate. The most egregious, Clinton Pugh (father of Florence Pugh, as the Oxford Mail never ceases to remind us), actually got Oxfordshire County Council to convert the street outside his cafe into an LTN back in the 1990s so there was more space for outdoor tables. But anyone else's street becoming an LTN so Clinton can't drive his SUV up it? Fetch the pitchforks.
    LTN opponents in Edinburgh tend to be people who like to drive through other people's neighbourhoods to get to work...
    I believe they're known as "commuters". Hang them, the perfidious [checks notes] people who drive to work. Bastards.
    Though a big difference between commuters on through roads and those rat-running through residential areas.
    Though that's the issue, is when existing through roads are converted without an alternative arranged.
    That is entirely the point, though not I suspect in the way you think.

    Residential streets became through roads about ten years ago for two reasons. One, Google Maps/Waze/Apple Maps started directing people down them to save seconds off their journey time. Two, the increase in courier vehicles (using those self-same apps).

    If you look at historic AADT* figures on residential streets - you can get them from TomTom or Inrix or a couple of other third-party suppliers - then they are vastly up on what they used to be. So, yes: "existing roads were converted". Residential streets were converted to through roads.

    That's the main driver behind LTN policy. If residential streets still had the traffic levels of 20 years ago I don't think you'd see such a clamour for LTNs.

    (I consult on this sort of route optimisation for a living, inter alia.)

    * Annual Average Daily Traffic
    Google Maps seems to me to deliberately avoid residential roads, even if it saves a minute or two not seconds off your commute nowadays.

    Courier vehicles are vehicles that are delivering to those residential addresses though!

    If you don't want Amazon vehicles driving down your road, then don't order off Amazon and convince your neighbours not to either. But if Bob at Number 79 is ordering off Amazon every day, and Wendy at number 68 is ordering off Amazon and Etsy regularly, then you're going to see couriers using your road regularly and not just Bob and Wendy's vehicles using the road.
    This is a good point - a big reason for the increase in mileage is delivery vans. Another reason for bringing our High Streets back to life.
    While you're at it, why not destroy that new fangled machinery in cotton mills so that the people working there don't lose their jobs?

    Amazon, Etsy etc are successful because they are a superior technology over High Streets. I can think of anything I want, absolutely anything, go on my phone or computer, and have it in my possession tomorrow.

    Rather than having to drive to the High Street, find parking, go to a shop and hope they have that in stock which they may not.

    Or let me guess, you wouldn't want me driving to the High Street anyway?
    Superior technology and favourable tax treatment. These are the weapons of the online shopping revolution. Especially the latter.
    Speaking from a customer view point the reason I shop online for all but food and clothes is simple. I need a new washing machine....on the high street I would have a choice of maybe 20 models.....online I can choose from maybe 400 models. I no longer have to put up with the shit dixons and curries want to palm off on me
    How do you pay for that with cash?
    I don't. I do not have an aversion to paying by card in the least or online shopping. I do have an aversion to everything having to be an electronic transfer.

    Things I am happy to pay by card for....online purchases from reputable companies

    Things I prefer to pay cash for all my local expenditure whether food shopping, buying a round in a bar, buying a vehicle, paying the guy that cuts my grass, bus and train tickets.

    I don't have any loyalty cards, I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out. The only social media I participate in is PB. I regularly try and dox myself to ensure I haven't left a significant digital footprint and where I can I use tor.

    It is not paranoia I just dont believe in letting anymore info escape than I absolutely have to because I know how much info is out there. Remember the case of tesco's outting someone as pregnant before even she knew due to the collected data.

    Simply put...once your data is out there its too late to take it back
    "I don't carry a mobile it stays on my desk when I go out." I think you may be missing the point there, but each to their own.

    You're a very eccentric person - don't ever change, eccentricity is good.
    It does rather miss the point of a phone being mobile!

    Why not just turn it off when out, so it is in your pocket if needed, yet not traceable?
    Because even if it is off the gps can still be activated likewise the microphone
    What? You're saying that a hacker can access the GPS and microphone on my iPhone (and presumably send themselves the data from those) at any time? Even when the phone's switched off?

    I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.
    I didnt claim hackers could in particular but certainly state agencies like for example the NSA or GCHQ certainly can. State agencies leaving a backdoor into devices however does mean a hacker could use the same.....a backdoor is usable by anyone.

    States have been increasingly trying to increase their surveillance powers of everyone. This is why e2e encryption is under attack, Kosa law in the states, online safety bill in the uk. Spain pushing for it in the eu who have at least backtracked.

    When states are pushing for more and more data to be available from us all for them to ferret through I think I have a point
    The bit I never get with this 'not-paranoia' is who exactly is going to be ferreting through the smartphone data of 70m people in this country?
    Sorry are you serious do you know how echelon works?
    Sorry, let me put it another way: who's going to give a shit about me, what I do, where I go, who I meet, who I call, what I buy?

    Now, if I was a budding terrorist, well, maybe. Even if I were an ordinary criminal then yes maybe the state would be interested.

    But I'm not. No one is going to be the slightest bit interested in me.

    So I will keep carrying my smartphone round with me. I'm even going to keep it on. And I may use it from time to time to, make calls, look things up, pay for shopping, find my way around, listen to books, pay for car-parking... Amazing things smartphones.
    They are that, something we can no longer easily live without, but potentially very risky.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    edited July 2023
    FF43 said:

    Whether the tennis ball is yellow or white depends on the reflected light, I think. We get shades of both in these photos, but tending more to yellow:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Wimbledon+tennis+ball&tbm=isch

    I should have said yellow or green, of course.

    The official colour picker for a tennis ball I see is 223, 255, 79, RGB, which makes it green, but on the border of yellow.

    https://www.crispedge.com/color/dfff4f/
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