Off topic, but I think many of you will find this cheering:
George Will says that neither Trump nor DeSantis will get the Republican nomination:
"Inevitably, there comes a rebellion against inevitability. Voters have been told that Donald Trump is the all-but-inevitable Republican nominee and that Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, operating atop a mountain of cash, will inevitably be Trump’s only significant challenger.
Voters, however, become contrary when told that the game’s outcome is known in the top of the first inning. Hence what G.K. Chesterton called the game of “Cheat the Prophet”: People listen politely to explanations of what is inevitable, then make something else happen."
(There are examples that support his argument, but I must should add this cautionary note: For decades, I have thought that Will was better with words than numbers.)
Off topic, but I think many of you will find this cheering:
George Will says that neither Trump nor DeSantis will get the Republican nomination:
"Inevitably, there comes a rebellion against inevitability. Voters have been told that Donald Trump is the all-but-inevitable Republican nominee and that Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, operating atop a mountain of cash, will inevitably be Trump’s only significant challenger.
Voters, however, become contrary when told that the game’s outcome is known in the top of the first inning. Hence what G.K. Chesterton called the game of “Cheat the Prophet”: People listen politely to explanations of what is inevitable, then make something else happen."
(There are examples that support his argument, but I must should add this cautionary note: For decades, I have thought that Will was better with words than numbers.)
Doesn't sound massively plausible in this instance. Does it get into why and how people will 'make something else happen' by being contrary?
“All I’ve ever wanted is to own my own home,” Waring says. She lives with her parents in Goole, a 25-minute drive from Selby. The 22-year-old graduated from York St John’s University with a degree in English literature and creative writing in 2022 and works as a lettings negotiator, earning about £18,000 a year.
£18,000 a year is less than minimum wage for a 35 hour week.
Given we have full employment and rising wages that suggests a creative writing degree from a crap university has had a negative effect on her earning potential.
And I suspect that few people at any time have been able to buy a house when earning so little.
Amusingly the Times reports that 'Selby has had a Tory MP “for as long as anyone can remember”, says one local'
Bad memories in Selby as it had a Labour MP between 1997 and 2010.
22 yo, though, so min wage is 10.18 ph, which works out at 18.5K at 35hrs.
And estate agents don't practise creative writing??
How many ways are there to write 'exciting opportunity' and 'luxury apartment' ?
Off topic, but I think many of you will find this cheering:
George Will says that neither Trump nor DeSantis will get the Republican nomination:
"Inevitably, there comes a rebellion against inevitability. Voters have been told that Donald Trump is the all-but-inevitable Republican nominee and that Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, operating atop a mountain of cash, will inevitably be Trump’s only significant challenger.
Voters, however, become contrary when told that the game’s outcome is known in the top of the first inning. Hence what G.K. Chesterton called the game of “Cheat the Prophet”: People listen politely to explanations of what is inevitable, then make something else happen."
(There are examples that support his argument, but I must should add this cautionary note: For decades, I have thought that Will was better with words than numbers.)
An opening for Pence or Haley maybe then
Haley for the Reps and Whitmer for the Dems and I'll think there's hope for the US yet.
Off topic, but I think many of you will find this cheering:
George Will says that neither Trump nor DeSantis will get the Republican nomination:
"Inevitably, there comes a rebellion against inevitability. Voters have been told that Donald Trump is the all-but-inevitable Republican nominee and that Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, operating atop a mountain of cash, will inevitably be Trump’s only significant challenger.
Voters, however, become contrary when told that the game’s outcome is known in the top of the first inning. Hence what G.K. Chesterton called the game of “Cheat the Prophet”: People listen politely to explanations of what is inevitable, then make something else happen."
(There are examples that support his argument, but I must should add this cautionary note: For decades, I have thought that Will was better with words than numbers.)
There was an element of “Cheat the Prophet” in 2016 when the other Bush was widely expected to get the Republican nom?
“All I’ve ever wanted is to own my own home,” Waring says. She lives with her parents in Goole, a 25-minute drive from Selby. The 22-year-old graduated from York St John’s University with a degree in English literature and creative writing in 2022 and works as a lettings negotiator, earning about £18,000 a year.
£18,000 a year is less than minimum wage for a 35 hour week.
Given we have full employment and rising wages that suggests a creative writing degree from a crap university has had a negative effect on her earning potential.
And I suspect that few people at any time have been able to buy a house when earning so little.
Amusingly the Times reports that 'Selby has had a Tory MP “for as long as anyone can remember”, says one local'
Bad memories in Selby as it had a Labour MP between 1997 and 2010.
22 yo, though, so min wage is 10.18 ph, which works out at 18.5K at 35hrs.
And estate agents don't practise creative writing??
How many ways are there to write 'exciting opportunity' and 'luxury apartment' ?
Fantastic opening and the latter wouldn't arise round there?
Off topic, but I think many of you will find this cheering:
George Will says that neither Trump nor DeSantis will get the Republican nomination:
"Inevitably, there comes a rebellion against inevitability. Voters have been told that Donald Trump is the all-but-inevitable Republican nominee and that Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, operating atop a mountain of cash, will inevitably be Trump’s only significant challenger.
Voters, however, become contrary when told that the game’s outcome is known in the top of the first inning. Hence what G.K. Chesterton called the game of “Cheat the Prophet”: People listen politely to explanations of what is inevitable, then make something else happen."
(There are examples that support his argument, but I must should add this cautionary note: For decades, I have thought that Will was better with words than numbers.)
An opening for Pence or Haley maybe then
Or Truss. I’ve often through the No 10 gig too small for her and if anyone can persuade the US to make a constitutional amendment it’s her.
“All I’ve ever wanted is to own my own home,” Waring says. She lives with her parents in Goole, a 25-minute drive from Selby. The 22-year-old graduated from York St John’s University with a degree in English literature and creative writing in 2022 and works as a lettings negotiator, earning about £18,000 a year.
£18,000 a year is less than minimum wage for a 35 hour week.
Given we have full employment and rising wages that suggests a creative writing degree from a crap university has had a negative effect on her earning potential.
And I suspect that few people at any time have been able to buy a house when earning so little.
Amusingly the Times reports that 'Selby has had a Tory MP “for as long as anyone can remember”, says one local'
Bad memories in Selby as it had a Labour MP between 1997 and 2010.
Goole isn't in Selby, anyway. It's in Brigg and Goole.
Indeed.
It looks like the Times wanted a story about unaffordable housing in Selby but could only find some very thin pickings - the other people featured are a couple who own a house in Selby but want to move to York and a beautician who commutes to Harrogate because she cannot afford to rent there.
Rome 33 Naples 31 Lisbon 26 Milan 28 Nice 28 Barcelona 29
Here near Mojacar in SE Spain 31 degrees a very typical summertime temperature. The UK news media have completely lost the plot.
God, this is pathetic. Wait till early evening the day a day or two after peak heat (Italy had 40 on Tuesday /Wednesday), cherrypick Greece out, despite it being what the UK media is reporting today and despite the heat being currently the first, second and third headlines in the foreign-sounding and unreliable ekathimerini, despite the Czech met office giving extreme heat warnings to Czechia, despite the ESA (where E does not stand for England) issuing warnings for next week for Italy, Spain, France, Germany and Poland, and proclaim that all is fine and dandy because it once reached 31 in that corner of SE Spain which is forever 1950s England. The Home Service is making a fool of itself over nothing, and all the evidence corroborating what it says is foreign.
Off topic, but I think many of you will find this cheering:
George Will says that neither Trump nor DeSantis will get the Republican nomination:
"Inevitably, there comes a rebellion against inevitability. Voters have been told that Donald Trump is the all-but-inevitable Republican nominee and that Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, operating atop a mountain of cash, will inevitably be Trump’s only significant challenger.
Voters, however, become contrary when told that the game’s outcome is known in the top of the first inning. Hence what G.K. Chesterton called the game of “Cheat the Prophet”: People listen politely to explanations of what is inevitable, then make something else happen."
(There are examples that support his argument, but I must should add this cautionary note: For decades, I have thought that Will was better with words than numbers.)
An opening for Pence or Haley maybe then
Haley for the Reps and Whitmer for the Dems and I'll think there's hope for the US yet.
She has been good at pushing people into absolute poverty, and covering up a whole *seven* internal DWP investigations into failed and punitive welfare policies, though.
Did Modi miss the big rocket to the moon? You'd have thought that more significant for his country than a sightseeing tour of Paris.
Given the poverty still in much of India I think attending the launch of an Indian rocket to the Moon (which has already been done by the US, USSR and China) maybe not something he wanted to give huge publicity too.
"Almost the first thing I saw when I arrived in the London suburb of Uxbridge was two teenage girls in school uniforms getting into a fistfight in the shopping mall outside the underground station."
I don't know what is a sadder reflection on this country, the fact that this 98 year old D Day veteran is treated so shabbily, or that his Tory MP's only response is to try to blame it on refugees. This government really is out of answers.
It's the council's responsibility not the government
The odd part is that the article doesn't explain why the three of them cannot rent another flat or house, given they were renting privately before. Perhaps they were on a very advantageous rent.
It depends if you start from the premise that the state should be housing everyone in need. This what people expect to happen but not what actually happens in reality. The cost of housing 10% of the population at £6000 per person per year would be about £48 billion per year.
"Almost the first thing I saw when I arrived in the London suburb of Uxbridge was two teenage girls in school uniforms getting into a fistfight in the shopping mall outside the underground station."
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Sophy Ridge @SophyRidgeSky I’m really excited to announce that I’ll be launching a new daily politics show at 7pm @SkyNews - the Politics Hub with Sophy Ridge. If you enjoyed the Sunday show, I’d love it if you gave us a try from September. I cannot wait to get stuck in!
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Did Modi miss the big rocket to the moon? You'd have thought that more significant for his country than a sightseeing tour of Paris.
Given the poverty still in much of India I think attending the launch of an Indian rocket to the Moon (which has already been done by the US, USSR and China) maybe not something he wanted to give huge publicity too.
I get that argument, but I think it's wrong. There is poverty in India because far too many people in power in India are unconcerned by that poverty - something not helped by the caste system.
The Indian space program is tiny, monetarily-wise, and it punches way above its weight - I think their space budget is between 500 and a billion pounds, which is tiny as these things go.
Governments can do more than one thing, and few things inspire like space.
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
Did Modi miss the big rocket to the moon? You'd have thought that more significant for his country than a sightseeing tour of Paris.
Given the poverty still in much of India I think attending the launch of an Indian rocket to the Moon (which has already been done by the US, USSR and China) maybe not something he wanted to give huge publicity too.
I get that argument, but I think it's wrong. There is poverty in India because far too many people in power in India are unconcerned by that poverty - something not helped by the caste system.
The Indian space program is tiny, monetarily-wise, and it punches way above its weight - I think their space budget is between 500 and a billion pounds, which is tiny as these things go.
Governments can do more than one thing, and few things inspire like space.
And that very poverty makes the standard of living exceptionally good for the middle class. Many are able to afford live in servants in relatively modest jobs.
Did Modi miss the big rocket to the moon? You'd have thought that more significant for his country than a sightseeing tour of Paris.
Given the poverty still in much of India I think attending the launch of an Indian rocket to the Moon (which has already been done by the US, USSR and China) maybe not something he wanted to give huge publicity too.
I get that argument, but I think it's wrong. There is poverty in India because far too many people in power in India are unconcerned by that poverty - something not helped by the caste system.
The Indian space program is tiny, monetarily-wise, and it punches way above its weight - I think their space budget is between 500 and a billion pounds, which is tiny as these things go.
Governments can do more than one thing, and few things inspire like space.
And that very poverty makes the standard of living exceptionally good for the middle class. Many are able to afford live in servants in relatively modest jobs.
A chap who often wintered with Indian friends told me he had to fight the desire to do even the most trivial things because he felt guilty asking servants to fetch him a cup of tea. They hated that because they saw it as a threat to their employment. It's complicated. India's tech expansion has been a boon for their people, as well as for our Prime Minister.
Did Modi miss the big rocket to the moon? You'd have thought that more significant for his country than a sightseeing tour of Paris.
Given the poverty still in much of India I think attending the launch of an Indian rocket to the Moon (which has already been done by the US, USSR and China) maybe not something he wanted to give huge publicity too.
I get that argument, but I think it's wrong. There is poverty in India because far too many people in power in India are unconcerned by that poverty - something not helped by the caste system.
The Indian space program is tiny, monetarily-wise, and it punches way above its weight - I think their space budget is between 500 and a billion pounds, which is tiny as these things go.
Governments can do more than one thing, and few things inspire like space.
And that very poverty makes the standard of living exceptionally good for the middle class. Many are able to afford live in servants in relatively modest jobs.
If India is like the (culturally quite varied and on three continents) parts of the third world that I'm familiar with, then the middle class is very small and also many of its members are willing for the sake of social appearances to accept fairly low disposable incomes in order to pay for the upkeep of neat houses in the right part of town as well as maids etc. that they could easily do without.
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
You have put @Roger firmly and properly in his place and you are right to be angry
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
What do you think about the decision to have a retrial? I don't think retrials simply because the first jury didn't reach 10-2 for either guilty or not guilty and the CPS wants a retrial should be allowed. The game changes a lot once the prosecution have heard all the defence evidence. They can't be got to unhear it. It should be 10+ for guilty or if not, after what the judge thinks is a reasonable time, then acquittal.
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
You’ll have to forgive @Roger. Prosecutions like this seem to upset him.
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
What do you think about the decision to have a retrial? I don't think retrials simply because the first jury didn't reach 10-2 for either guilty or not guilty should be allowed. The game changes a lot once the prosecution have heard all the defence evidence.
The retrial I was less comfortable with I fully admit. I can understand the decision was “within the range of reasonable responses” to quote a wildly anachronistic legal phrase from another area of law, but I would not necessarily have pressed on. I think the original decision to prosecute 100% correct though.
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
You’ll have to forgive @Roger. Prosecutions like this seem to upset him.
Only for people like him which is why he supports polanski
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
Then Parliament should change the law rather than the Government trying to bring in secondary legislation in a manner that clearly breached the parent act.
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
It would be funny if he ended up selling them back to Western museums.
It really wouldnt because when the king is gone you would have the toynbees demanding we give them back to benin as the king didnt have the right to sell them. We dont want to keep rebuying them every few decades
Benjamin Mandy’s career need not be over. Ched Evans, who actually served time before he had his conviction quashed and was acquitted at a retrial, has resumed his career with a reasonable degree of success.
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
You’ll have to forgive @Roger. Prosecutions like this seem to upset him.
Only for people like him which is why he supports polanski
No - he was upset about Rotherham. No celebs there, that I recall.
Then Parliament should change the law rather than the Government trying to bring in secondary legislation in a manner that clearly breached the parent act.
I'm not sure if this is a new development, but whenever the Government gets knocked back by the Courts for some barbarous policy I often wonder why the Government didn't simply introduce a bill, or amend the law, to do what they wanted. I reckon they'd have the numbers so I'm left wondering if they're thick or looking to pick fights.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
It would be funny if he ended up selling them back to Western museums.
It really wouldnt because when the king is gone you would have the toynbees demanding we give them back to benin as the king didnt have the right to sell them. We dont want to keep rebuying them every few decades
Do it with lottery money - keep on putting them in the British Museum.
Then Parliament should change the law rather than the Government trying to bring in secondary legislation in a manner that clearly breached the parent act.
I'm not sure if this is a new development, but whenever the Government gets knocked back by the Courts for some barbarous policy I often wonder why the Government didn't simply introduce a bill, or amend the law, to do what they wanted. I reckon they'd have the numbers so I'm left wondering if they're thick or looking to pick fights.
I always, charitably, think that it’s lack of Parliamentary time. Some cases are borderline but in this agency worker cases one the Act said “consult” in big black letters and yet the Government failed to. So I think you might be looking to pick fights.
Then Parliament should change the law rather than the Government trying to bring in secondary legislation in a manner that clearly breached the parent act.
I'm not sure if this is a new development, but whenever the Government gets knocked back by the Courts for some barbarous policy I often wonder why the Government didn't simply introduce a bill, or amend the law, to do what they wanted. I reckon they'd have the numbers so I'm left wondering if they're thick or looking to pick fights.
I assume what usually happens is it would take more time than they would like to cover off all aspects, particularly when there is a political need to be met, and that in fairness the lawfulness of a particular policy option may be strongly arguable (even if it is not nice - many things that are not are lawful) - they do win plenty of challenges, and ones they lose may get overturned by higher courts (or vice versa).
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
Did Modi miss the big rocket to the moon? You'd have thought that more significant for his country than a sightseeing tour of Paris.
Given the poverty still in much of India I think attending the launch of an Indian rocket to the Moon (which has already been done by the US, USSR and China) maybe not something he wanted to give huge publicity too.
I get that argument, but I think it's wrong. There is poverty in India because far too many people in power in India are unconcerned by that poverty - something not helped by the caste system.
The Indian space program is tiny, monetarily-wise, and it punches way above its weight - I think their space budget is between 500 and a billion pounds, which is tiny as these things go.
Governments can do more than one thing, and few things inspire like space.
And that very poverty makes the standard of living exceptionally good for the middle class. Many are able to afford live in servants in relatively modest jobs.
If India is like the (culturally quite varied and on three continents) parts of the third world that I'm familiar with, then the middle class is very small and also many of its members are willing for the sake of social appearances to accept fairly low disposable incomes in order to pay for the upkeep of neat houses in the right part of town as well as maids etc. that they could easily do without.
I think it's a safe assumption that ... (checks) 1.4 billion people are all alike.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
Straw man. We are not talking about current activities but how we view those that occured in the past long after all the guilty parties (and the innocent) are dead. Too many people on all sides want to point the finger at one section of a dsisgusting trade and say - 'There! They were the people mostly responsible and ultimately it is their fault' rather than accepting that all those involved in the trade carry equal responsibility.
Giving the bronzes back to the descendents of the slavers (who ran the largest slave trading city in the world) may be legally and even morally right but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth. All the more so when they are going into private hands rather than going to the state on behalf of all the people.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
I don't think that I have ever used the flag option but this tempted me. This is not a subject for humour, black or otherwise. The abuse of children is something I see professionally on an almost daily basis. There is nothing funny about it. Believe me.
Did Modi miss the big rocket to the moon? You'd have thought that more significant for his country than a sightseeing tour of Paris.
Given the poverty still in much of India I think attending the launch of an Indian rocket to the Moon (which has already been done by the US, USSR and China) maybe not something he wanted to give huge publicity too.
I get that argument, but I think it's wrong. There is poverty in India because far too many people in power in India are unconcerned by that poverty - something not helped by the caste system.
The Indian space program is tiny, monetarily-wise, and it punches way above its weight - I think their space budget is between 500 and a billion pounds, which is tiny as these things go.
Governments can do more than one thing, and few things inspire like space.
And that very poverty makes the standard of living exceptionally good for the middle class. Many are able to afford live in servants in relatively modest jobs.
If India is like the (culturally quite varied and on three continents) parts of the third world that I'm familiar with, then the middle class is very small and also many of its members are willing for the sake of social appearances to accept fairly low disposable incomes in order to pay for the upkeep of neat houses in the right part of town as well as maids etc. that they could easily do without.
I think it's a safe assumption that ... (checks) 1.4 billion people are all alike.
That response has little connection with what I said.
The middle class is presumably small and I suggested that "many" in it might share a lot of their approach to life with many middle class people in other third world countries. Perhaps they don't. I have no vested interest either way. Absolutely nothing in there that suggests I think everyone in India is alike. Dunno know what your problem is. Reading too quickly and jumping to familiar conclusions maybe?
Certainly I know of middle class people, indeed know middle class people, in other third world countries whose main reason for employing "help" in the home is for the sake of appearances and who are left with little disposable income because of this.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
I don't think that I have ever used the flag option but this tempted me. This is not a subject for humour, black or otherwise. The abuse of children is something I see professionally on an almost daily basis. There is nothing funny about it. Believe me.
WTF? WT actual actual F? Who said this was humour, black or otherwise? It certainly was never intended to be. Are you saying that I am, ridiculously, comparing the slave trade to an actual serious crime?
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
Aside from all your relevant experience though, he's got an excellent point?
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
Straw man. We are not talking about current activities but how we view those that occured in the past long after all the guilty parties (and the innocent) are dead. Too many people on all sides want to point the finger at one section of a dsisgusting trade and say - 'There! They were the people mostly responsible and ultimately it is their fault' rather than accepting that all those involved in the trade carry equal responsibility.
Giving the bronzes back to the descendents of the slavers (who ran the largest slave trading city in the world) may be legally and even morally right but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth. All the more so when they are going into private hands rather than going to the state on behalf of all the people.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
Straw man. We are not talking about current activities but how we view those that occured in the past long after all the guilty parties (and the innocent) are dead. Too many people on all sides want to point the finger at one section of a dsisgusting trade and say - 'There! They were the people mostly responsible and ultimately it is their fault' rather than accepting that all those involved in the trade carry equal responsibility.
Giving the bronzes back to the descendents of the slavers (who ran the largest slave trading city in the world) may be legally and even morally right but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth. All the more so when they are going into private hands rather than going to the state on behalf of all the people.
The English slavers were not moral primitives, so the argument that we must not apply current standards to them gets nowhere. Infuriatingly I saw the actual quote from Elizabeth I the other day but can't track it down, but
"Queen Elizabeth I of England was also sensitive to the social destruction caused by kidnapping in Africa, urging her subjects to procure slaves by “honest” means. Kidnapping, she said, was a moral offence, but slave trading was not."
Actually she said something to the effect of This is evil and wicked, and Hawkins said yebbut look at the profit margins. It was as obvious to her at the very beginning,as it is to you now, that this is unadulterated evil. Contextualising it doesn't help.
Benjamin Mandy’s career need not be over. Ched Evans, who actually served time before he had his conviction quashed and was acquitted at a retrial, has resumed his career with a reasonable degree of success.
Having bedded 10,000 women according to the report, I am surprised he has time for the beautiful game.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
Straw man. We are not talking about current activities but how we view those that occured in the past long after all the guilty parties (and the innocent) are dead. Too many people on all sides want to point the finger at one section of a dsisgusting trade and say - 'There! They were the people mostly responsible and ultimately it is their fault' rather than accepting that all those involved in the trade carry equal responsibility.
Giving the bronzes back to the descendents of the slavers (who ran the largest slave trading city in the world) may be legally and even morally right but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth. All the more so when they are going into private hands rather than going to the state on behalf of all the people.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
Straw man. We are not talking about current activities but how we view those that occured in the past long after all the guilty parties (and the innocent) are dead. Too many people on all sides want to point the finger at one section of a dsisgusting trade and say - 'There! They were the people mostly responsible and ultimately it is their fault' rather than accepting that all those involved in the trade carry equal responsibility.
Giving the bronzes back to the descendents of the slavers (who ran the largest slave trading city in the world) may be legally and even morally right but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth. All the more so when they are going into private hands rather than going to the state on behalf of all the people.
The English slavers were not moral primitives, so the argument that we must not apply current standards to them gets nowhere. Infuriatingly I saw the actual quote from Elizabeth I the other day but can't track it down, but
"Queen Elizabeth I of England was also sensitive to the social destruction caused by kidnapping in Africa, urging her subjects to procure slaves by “honest” means. Kidnapping, she said, was a moral offence, but slave trading was not."
Actually she said something to the effect of This is evil and wicked, and Hawkins said yebbut look at the profit margins. It was as obvious to her at the very beginning,as it is to you now, that this is unadulterated evil. Contextualising it doesn't help.
I'd like to see the wording of the quote. I strongly doubt that Elizabethan slavers kidnapped anyone - travelling to the interior was a death sentence for Europeans in the early Victorian era, let alone the Elizabethan era. Of course, I doubt they enquired too deeply about the history of the slaves.
Benjamin Mandy’s career need not be over. Ched Evans, who actually served time before he had his conviction quashed and was acquitted at a retrial, has resumed his career with a reasonable degree of success.
Having bedded 10,000 women according to the report, I am surprised he has time for the beautiful game.
OT. A more ridiculous and vindictive prosecution would be hard to imagine. In short a footballer has had his career ruined by an incompetent police force who never had any chance of securing a conviction. The retrial was simply absurd. Everyone knew there was not a chance of a conviction. The Cheshire Chief Constable should be fired
Erm…it’s the CPS who decides whether to prosecute, not the Chief Constable. Other than that an interesting post. C+
It is for Cheshire police to provide the evidence. I don't know which village you provide your conveyancing skills but for a second rate lawyer who knows nothing about the case I'm surprised you don't refrain from comment
For a man widely mocked on this website for the inaccuracy of his predictions I’d shut the f up permanently if I were you.
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
Aside from all your relevant experience though, he's got an excellent point?
No. He couldn't be more wrong. It was never the decision of the police to prosecute, it was that of the DPP, and when it got to the stage of having a retrial, the decision to do so was largely down to the prosecuting barrister, a KC of 30+ years' experience, and the trial judge. All of whom know both a lot more about English law than Rog, and, having sat through and conducted trial no. 1, infinitely more about the case.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
I don't think that I have ever used the flag option but this tempted me. This is not a subject for humour, black or otherwise. The abuse of children is something I see professionally on an almost daily basis. There is nothing funny about it. Believe me.
WTF? WT actual actual F? Who said this was humour, black or otherwise? It certainly was never intended to be. Are you saying that I am, ridiculously, comparing the slave trade to an actual serious crime?
Well what are you saying? That because the families put them there that abusing children is "fine". That there is any kind of context that makes this ok? That because this sort of evil existed in the past it is ok now? Please explain.
Did Modi miss the big rocket to the moon? You'd have thought that more significant for his country than a sightseeing tour of Paris.
Given the poverty still in much of India I think attending the launch of an Indian rocket to the Moon (which has already been done by the US, USSR and China) maybe not something he wanted to give huge publicity too.
I get that argument, but I think it's wrong. There is poverty in India because far too many people in power in India are unconcerned by that poverty - something not helped by the caste system.
The Indian space program is tiny, monetarily-wise, and it punches way above its weight - I think their space budget is between 500 and a billion pounds, which is tiny as these things go.
Governments can do more than one thing, and few things inspire like space.
And that very poverty makes the standard of living exceptionally good for the middle class. Many are able to afford live in servants in relatively modest jobs.
If India is like the (culturally quite varied and on three continents) parts of the third world that I'm familiar with, then the middle class is very small and also many of its members are willing for the sake of social appearances to accept fairly low disposable incomes in order to pay for the upkeep of neat houses in the right part of town as well as maids etc. that they could easily do without.
I think it's a safe assumption that ... (checks) 1.4 billion people are all alike.
That response has little connection with what I said.
The middle class is presumably small and I suggested that "many" in it might share a lot of their approach to life with many middle class people in other third world countries. Perhaps they don't. I have no vested interest either way. Absolutely nothing in there that suggests I think everyone in India is alike. Dunno know what your problem is. Reading too quickly and jumping to familiar conclusions maybe?
Certainly I know of middle class people, indeed know middle class people, in other third world countries whose main reason for employing "help" in the home is for the sake of appearances and who are left with little disposable income because of this.
The Indian middle class is, by now, surely larger than that of the UK.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
I don't think that I have ever used the flag option but this tempted me. This is not a subject for humour, black or otherwise. The abuse of children is something I see professionally on an almost daily basis. There is nothing funny about it. Believe me.
WTF? WT actual actual F? Who said this was humour, black or otherwise? It certainly was never intended to be. Are you saying that I am, ridiculously, comparing the slave trade to an actual serious crime?
Well what are you saying? That because the families put them there that abusing children is "fine". That there is any kind of context that makes this ok? That because this sort of evil existed in the past it is ok now? Please explain.
Jesus. Have you had a bad day in court?
I have reread what I said and I cannot see how it could be misunderstood. But for the avoidance of doubt,
1. My hypothetical defence of myself for my hypothetical child abuse is obviously worthless and morally repulsive
2. it is on all fours with the defence of slavery to which I was replying, which also says it has existed throughout history, lots of other people (in this context, Arab slavers) did it too, and the African slaves were generally made available to Europeans by other Africans (analogous to the appalling truth that child prostitutes are often made to be that, by their own families).
3. therefore the defence of slavery is by analogy as worthless and repugnant as the defence outlined in para 1.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
Straw man. We are not talking about current activities but how we view those that occured in the past long after all the guilty parties (and the innocent) are dead. Too many people on all sides want to point the finger at one section of a dsisgusting trade and say - 'There! They were the people mostly responsible and ultimately it is their fault' rather than accepting that all those involved in the trade carry equal responsibility.
Giving the bronzes back to the descendents of the slavers (who ran the largest slave trading city in the world) may be legally and even morally right but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth. All the more so when they are going into private hands rather than going to the state on behalf of all the people.
OTOH we are always assured on here that royal private property is somehow national property and at the same time that the world will collapse if e.g. they have to respect the same planning laws as everyoine else. E.g. if they have to permit the installation of district heating pipes through some open ground or under some roads near Balmoral.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
I don't think that I have ever used the flag option but this tempted me. This is not a subject for humour, black or otherwise. The abuse of children is something I see professionally on an almost daily basis. There is nothing funny about it. Believe me.
WTF? WT actual actual F? Who said this was humour, black or otherwise? It certainly was never intended to be. Are you saying that I am, ridiculously, comparing the slave trade to an actual serious crime?
Well what are you saying? That because the families put them there that abusing children is "fine". That there is any kind of context that makes this ok? That because this sort of evil existed in the past it is ok now? Please explain.
Jesus. Have you had a bad day in court?
I have reread what I said and I cannot see how it could be misunderstood. But for the avoidance of doubt,
1. My hypothetical defence of myself for my hypothetical child abuse is obviously worthless and morally repulsive
2. it is on all fours with the defence of slavery to which I was replying, which also says it has existed throughout history, lots of other people (in this context, Arab slavers) did it too, and the African slaves were generally made available to Europeans by other Africans (analogous to the appalling truth that child prostitutes are often made to be that, by their own families).
3. therefore the defence of slavery is by analogy as worthless and repugnant as the defence outlined in para 1.
Are we clear now?
I apologise if I have misunderstood what you have said. And the answer to your question is yes.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
I don't think that I have ever used the flag option but this tempted me. This is not a subject for humour, black or otherwise. The abuse of children is something I see professionally on an almost daily basis. There is nothing funny about it. Believe me.
WTF? WT actual actual F? Who said this was humour, black or otherwise? It certainly was never intended to be. Are you saying that I am, ridiculously, comparing the slave trade to an actual serious crime?
Well what are you saying? That because the families put them there that abusing children is "fine". That there is any kind of context that makes this ok? That because this sort of evil existed in the past it is ok now? Please explain.
Jesus. Have you had a bad day in court?
I have reread what I said and I cannot see how it could be misunderstood. But for the avoidance of doubt,
1. My hypothetical defence of myself for my hypothetical child abuse is obviously worthless and morally repulsive
2. it is on all fours with the defence of slavery to which I was replying, which also says it has existed throughout history, lots of other people (in this context, Arab slavers) did it too, and the African slaves were generally made available to Europeans by other Africans (analogous to the appalling truth that child prostitutes are often made to be that, by their own families).
3. therefore the defence of slavery is by analogy as worthless and repugnant as the defence outlined in para 1.
Are we clear now?
Except absolutely no one was defending slavery or excusing anyone. Indeed the comments from Kle4, Sean and myself were all crictical of the fact that people want to look at one section of the slave trade and say it was super bad and use that as an excuse to ignore the part of their own country/vested interest.
You have created a truly weird and irrelevant straw man to attack something that was not even being defended.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
There are good slavers and bad slavers.
I tihnk the general position is that focusing on such is a distraction from the triangle trade, which in scale and operation is considered particularly bad, but it seems fairly important to understand it all in context - slavery existing in a great many human societies throughout history, and the role of african kingdoms in it pre and during the triangle trade, seems pretty important without in any way making the actions of Europeans anything other than reprehensible. How could we understand the horrors of slave trades without looking at it all together?
OK, if I get caught frequenting child brothels, I will just say you have to see these things in context. Child brothels have existed throughout history, people from all sorts of other cultures use them even more than I do, and you'll often find that it's actually the childrens' close families who put them there in the first place. So that's all fine.
Straw man. We are not talking about current activities but how we view those that occured in the past long after all the guilty parties (and the innocent) are dead. Too many people on all sides want to point the finger at one section of a dsisgusting trade and say - 'There! They were the people mostly responsible and ultimately it is their fault' rather than accepting that all those involved in the trade carry equal responsibility.
Giving the bronzes back to the descendents of the slavers (who ran the largest slave trading city in the world) may be legally and even morally right but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth. All the more so when they are going into private hands rather than going to the state on behalf of all the people.
OTOH we are always assured on here that royal private property is somehow national property and at the same time that the world will collapse if e.g. they have to respect the same planning laws as everyoine else. E.g. if they have to permit the installation of district heating pipes through some open ground or under some roads near Balmoral.
I will take your word for it though I have not seen those claims. Whilst I am a monarchist I do not hold with the idea that anyone is above the law so it is not really a relevant response to my comments.
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Seems apt. After all he is the direct descendent of the slaver Kings who originally owned the bronzes - which were made from the manillas they were paid for selling slaves to the Europeans.
Royalty involved in the slave trade? Surely not!
Hmm, the words James, Charles, Company, Royal and African swim to the mind's surface for osme unaccountable reason. Perhaps even the chaps who liked to brand some slaves DoY for Duke of York?
Comments
Thérèse Coffey launched probe after it was revealed feminine hygiene products are regularly replenished in all her department’s lavatories
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/14/defra-investigation-tampons-mens-lavatories/ (£££)
Secretary of State for who bloody cares...
Indian PM Narendra Modi was Macron's guest of honour to watch the parade with him and First Lady Brigitte
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12299713/Emmanuel-Macron-roundly-booed-waving-Bastille-Day-crowds.html
It looks like the Times wanted a story about unaffordable housing in Selby but could only find some very thin pickings - the other people featured are a couple who own a house in Selby but want to move to York and a beautician who commutes to Harrogate because she cannot afford to rent there.
Have I misunderstood your point?
I'm on at 110.
One-of-a-kind in her awful appeal.
Israeli hospital performed extremely rare operation after ligaments connecting the 12-year-old’s spine and skull were severed
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/07/14/doctors-reattach-boys-decapitated-head-after-collision/ (£££)
@Foxy will have to up his game.
"Almost the first thing I saw when I arrived in the London suburb of Uxbridge was two teenage girls in school uniforms getting into a fistfight in the shopping mall outside the underground station."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/14/opinion/britain-conservatives-tories-elections.html
2. How do we know it was not Modi being booed?
3. The Daily Mail clip is prefaced by a commercial for "UK immigration lawyers based in London." Dissonance?
"The label on all packages of SMS produce (including pre-packed produce) must include:
quality class
country of origin in full (do not use abbreviations or flags)
variety or type (if required)"
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/comply-with-marketing-standards-for-fresh-fruit-and-vegetables
Not sure about the force of "if required" but I think it just means that some things, say leeks and turnips, are not sold by cultivar.
I praised the Conservatives frank and free
Tompkins got angry so speedily
All in a moment he handed to me
Two lovely black eyes.
Two lovely black eyes
Oh what a surprise
Only for telling a man he was wrong
Two lovely black eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxoesda-QK0
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-66201526
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/13/benin-bronzes-british-museum-returned-nigeria-oba/ (£££)
The road to private ownership of priceless artefacts is paved with good intentions.
Reading the notes, Mendy has behaved like a dog with two d****!
@SophyRidgeSky
I’m really excited to announce that I’ll be launching a new daily politics show at 7pm @SkyNews
- the Politics Hub with Sophy Ridge. If you enjoyed the Sunday show, I’d love it if you gave us a try from September. I cannot wait to get stuck in!
The Indian space program is tiny, monetarily-wise, and it punches way above its weight - I think their space budget is between 500 and a billion pounds, which is tiny as these things go.
Governments can do more than one thing, and few things inspire like space.
Many are able to afford live in servants in relatively modest jobs.
B-b-but, this chap's not English!
Police do not “provide” evidence you cretin, they gather it. They then present it to the CPS. When you tell the police to “provide” evidence you get the Birmingham Six prosecution.
I’ve been following this case quite closely and the decision to prosecute was quite reasonable.
Then again I’m a mere partner a firm in that village known as the City of London providing “conveyancing” services that my clients normally describe as high value employment litigation in the High Court and Employment Tribunals, specialising in defending financial service executives accused of wrongdoing which, sadly in the age we live in, includes a lot of sexual misconduct under both the Equality Act 2010 and occasionally the criminal law. Whereas you are retired soapsud salesman in France with a cracked crystal ball. So you clearly win.
So piss off and tell us the Sun’s going to rise in the north tomorrow or make some other fantastically inaccurate prediction.
I don't think retrials simply because the first jury didn't reach 10-2 for either guilty or not guilty and the CPS wants a retrial should be allowed. The game changes a lot once the prosecution have heard all the defence evidence. They can't be got to unhear it. It should be 10+ for guilty or if not, after what the judge thinks is a reasonable time, then acquittal.
Zuma heading to Moscow for medical treatment….
50% of Labour voters however think they should not be allowed to, only 34% in favour
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1679857584138797056?s=20
Worth it for the LOLs.
Since agency staff aren't abundant.
Giving the bronzes back to the descendents of the slavers (who ran the largest slave trading city in the world) may be legally and even morally right but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth. All the more so when they are going into private hands rather than going to the state on behalf of all the people.
The middle class is presumably small and I suggested that "many" in it might share a lot of their approach to life with many middle class people in other third world countries. Perhaps they don't. I have no vested interest either way. Absolutely nothing in there that suggests I think everyone in India is alike. Dunno know what your problem is. Reading too quickly and jumping to familiar conclusions maybe?
Certainly I know of middle class people, indeed know middle class people, in other third world countries whose main reason for employing "help" in the home is for the sake of appearances and who are left with little disposable income because of this.
"Queen Elizabeth I of England was also sensitive to the social destruction caused by kidnapping in Africa, urging her subjects to procure slaves by “honest” means. Kidnapping, she said, was a moral offence, but slave trading was not."
https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000128631
Actually she said something to the effect of This is evil and wicked, and Hawkins said yebbut look at the profit margins. It was as obvious to her at the very beginning,as it is to you now, that this is unadulterated evil. Contextualising it doesn't help.
He must have some libido and staying power.
I have reread what I said and I cannot see how it could be misunderstood. But for the avoidance of doubt,
1. My hypothetical defence of myself for my hypothetical child abuse is obviously worthless and morally repulsive
2. it is on all fours with the defence of slavery to which I was replying, which also says it has existed throughout history, lots of other people (in this context, Arab slavers) did it too, and the African slaves were generally made available to Europeans by other Africans (analogous to the appalling truth that child prostitutes are often made to be that, by their own families).
3. therefore the defence of slavery is by analogy as worthless and repugnant as the defence outlined in para 1.
Are we clear now?
You have created a truly weird and irrelevant straw man to attack something that was not even being defended.