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35 years ago today Die Hard was released in cinemas – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    edited July 2023
    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    If his contract had that clause then fair enough . I find the Nazi thing disturbing but having sex online and posting pictures I could care less as long as it was consensual and the parties involved agreed to putting them out there .
    Some people have Nazi fetishes. I doubt if the majority of those people are actual Nazis. But, you would not find an Employment Tribunal showing you much symapthy, these days, if your employer says you're bringing htem into disrepute.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    Yes, quite. I'd like to see the local government contract that says "If you engage in legal sexual activity that we don't like, we'll take away the pension to which you've contributed". Certain jobs - perhaps including newsreaders - may have a catch-all clause saying they mustn't behave in a manner that causes embarassment to the institution, but not, I'd suggest, a job like housing officer.

    As for the public interest, what is it? Why does it affect us what a newsreader does in bed? The public interest is that we don't make public life so hazardous that only the foolhardy and the shameless dare to take any public-facing job.

    I'd say the same if it was the Guardian exposing a GBTV personality. I don't care what their sex life is like, and nor should a newspaper.
    It is extremely difficult to think of any action that could bring an official in a housing office further into disrepute than they already are.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    edited July 2023
    A

    A

    Augusta said:

    Peck said:

    Augusta said:

    Peck said:

    Augusta said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Takagi-san: Huw Edwards
    Hans Gruber: The S*n
    Leon: the coked-up "bubby" with the Rolex

    Edwards hasn't been stitched up here. It wasn't a sting. He has behaved extremely dubiously. All the Sun have done is reported it. Stop trying to make him into a martyr.
    They claimed his "victim" was a 17 year old child.

    Child porn images. Groomed for cash.

    Which makes Edwards a paedophile, does it not?
    They claimed being the operative word...should the police investigate certainly and if guilty he should be a rolf a like. If not guilty it has destroyed a mans life and that of his family for no more than gossip
    Not really. His behaviour in threatening a young man was pretty disgusting. He also broke lockdown rules at a time when he was telling people to stay home.
    Almost everyone who wasn't in a care institution or prison etc. broke lockdown rules.

    Also how do we know he wasn't arrested at some time during the past few days? He probably was, to judge from what the Independent wrote in that URL.

    Sounds to me that whoever put this story into the Sun was making clear that they hold elint of him being at those railway stations when he shouldn't have been. Goodness knows what else they hold elint of him doing.

    I hinted at his history of depression before his name was released. (So did Jeremy Vine.) It's not surprising that he's done a Challenor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Challenor

    Let's hope his health bears up. One thing he won't be doing while he's (said to be) in "hospital" is giving his side of the story.

    Was "WFZ" behind this? Cui bono?

    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/KB/2023/1618.html

    It's quite easy to form a reasonable opinion at say p=0.75 from the public version of that judgment what sector the national and international figure WFZ works in.

    Quite easy to guess too with lower p what the place was where he was arrested in 2022, and indeed who he is.
    By that argument Boris Johnson should be let off scott free. Thanks for confirming you didnt take lockdown seriously though.
    Do you disagree on the substantive premise though that most people in Britain broke lockdown rules?
    Possible behaviour by either Boris Johnson or myself is of little importance. We're only two adults out of ~60m.
    Actually i know many people who took lockdown incredibly seriously. Thanks for confirming your cavalier attitude to spreading a virus during a pandemic though.
    Welcome to PB

    1) if a planet crashes on the Ukraine /Republic of China border, on what side
    EPG said:

    moonshine said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    Isn’t the allegation here that the chap was under 18? Which would make it soliciting child porn? And a crime?

    London branch of the bacon covering themselves in glory yet again it seems to me. Establishment circling the wagons.
    I'm talking about Sean_F's outline of a scenario, not anything else. To my mind, gross misconduct means the ability to breach the usual contract and legal rights of employments. With all due respect to HR as a specialty, that makes me think I'd rather hear from the lawyers.
    In HR world it’s not breaking laws, it’s Bringing The Company Into Disrepute.

    I mentioned the other day, the story of some traders who drank some very expensive wine at a lunch. They paid for the wine with their own money. They committed no crime. They even tipped 15% on the vast bill They were sacked when it got in the papers - and it was upheld in court.

    Why was it upheld though?

    Lunch is during the work day and alcohol at lunchtime is a murky area nowadays.

    If the traders had drank some very expensive win on a Friday night when they weren't due back to work until Monday, then would it have been upheld in court?
    They made the front page of the Evening Standard.

    That was the offence. Bad publicity for their employer.

    Edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1839963.stm
  • So no crime has apparently been committed in this case. Can someone now explain to me why the last week has been dominated by purile headlines?

    Is it so prurient for parents to be upset that the person reading them their news on the BBC might be contacting their seventeen year old child for sexual gratification?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Now of course you're talking about a very different example, involving a director of government services in a democratic society who could be construed as celebrating anti-democratic and discriminatory values. That to my mind is getting more into my prior understanding of "gross misconduct" outside the workplace, unlike paying for porn.
    Nazi fantasies in sex are nothing that unusual. There's absolutely no reason to believe that the man in question was an actual Nazi.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    Back onto holiday films, the fun thing about The Rock is that it is Sean Connery's last Bond film. Not only is "John Mason" an obvious Connery Bond, the timeline in the film directly fits his timeline as Bond ...

    A man on the internet agrees with you

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FdnevXjqdc
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Augusta said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Agreed. You have nailed it.
    The argument seems to be "who cares what happened? If The Sun is against him, I'm for him."
    No, the argument is who cares what happened if it was legal and between consenting adults?

    I couldn't care less if it was the Sun, the Mirror, Heat magazine or the Grauniad against him. What happens between two consenting adults is nobody else's business, end of story.
    Well that is not how employers, or wider society, incresingly view it, especially in the post Me Too era. If, say, a 60 year old guy were offering a 22 year old woman a role in a film he was directing, in return for her giving him sex, that would not be a criminal matter. One might argue it is simply a transaction between consenting adults. But, his employer, and the wider public, might take a dim view of the matter.
    Because that's a workplace issue. The moment you bring sexual relations into the work place by offering work privileges for sexual relations, it ceases to be a private matter between consenting adults since the workplace has been dragged into it.

    If a 60 year old is offering that to a woman in a role in a film he is directing then that's absolutely a workplace matter.

    If a 60 year old hooks up with a random 22 year old in a nightclub, or online, who's not an actress and has no connection to work, then its not.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,380
    MikeL said:

    The most important news this week regarding the BBC came out yesterday - and it's been totally missed by the entire media - the latest figure for the number of TV licences in force.

    March 2019 - 26.2m
    March 2020 - 25.9m
    March 2021 - 25.2m
    March 2022 - 24.8m
    March 2023 - 24.4m

    So down 400k in the last 12 months and not far off down 2 million in the last 4 years - although note that some of the fall in 2020/21 was dead people and old people who had moved being deleted from the system (people who the BBC had previously been paid for automatically when the Government paid for all over 75s).

    And this at a time when the population and number of households in the country continues to rise.

    Almost 3 million households have now formally declared to the BBC that they don't need a TV licence. And the BBC believes the evasion rate is now over 10% (having historically been about 7%).

    Contrary to popular perception, the BBC is going to be absolutely desperate to get rid of the TV licence when the Royal Charter expires at the end of 2027 - because at this rate of decline they are going to face permanent and severe contraction.

    The only question now is will Starmer agree to a "media levy" on all households - which will annoy everyone who doesn't now have a TV Licence - but if he doesn't the BBC is in big trouble - and far, far bigger trouble than anything to do with Huw Edwards.

    Richard Sharp was talking about the same thing at the weekend. Quite how popular it would be remains to be seen.I suspect it wouldn’t be.

    Also Capita (IIRC) who collect the license fee would be far from happy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66140890

    The BBC just needs to bite the bullet and seek its funding elsewhere either via ads, subscriptions or by whatever other means that does not rely on a license fee or taxation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66140890
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    So no crime has apparently been committed in this case. Can someone now explain to me why the last week has been dominated by purile headlines?

    Is it so prurient for parents to be upset that the person reading them their news on the BBC might be contacting their seventeen year old child for sexual gratification?
    It’s prurient to think that it allegations - actually denied by the “victim” are fit for publication in the tabloid press.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    By the way, is Die Hard any good?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    A

    A

    Augusta said:

    Peck said:

    Augusta said:

    Peck said:

    Augusta said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Takagi-san: Huw Edwards
    Hans Gruber: The S*n
    Leon: the coked-up "bubby" with the Rolex

    Edwards hasn't been stitched up here. It wasn't a sting. He has behaved extremely dubiously. All the Sun have done is reported it. Stop trying to make him into a martyr.
    They claimed his "victim" was a 17 year old child.

    Child porn images. Groomed for cash.

    Which makes Edwards a paedophile, does it not?
    They claimed being the operative word...should the police investigate certainly and if guilty he should be a rolf a like. If not guilty it has destroyed a mans life and that of his family for no more than gossip
    Not really. His behaviour in threatening a young man was pretty disgusting. He also broke lockdown rules at a time when he was telling people to stay home.
    Almost everyone who wasn't in a care institution or prison etc. broke lockdown rules.

    Also how do we know he wasn't arrested at some time during the past few days? He probably was, to judge from what the Independent wrote in that URL.

    Sounds to me that whoever put this story into the Sun was making clear that they hold elint of him being at those railway stations when he shouldn't have been. Goodness knows what else they hold elint of him doing.

    I hinted at his history of depression before his name was released. (So did Jeremy Vine.) It's not surprising that he's done a Challenor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Challenor

    Let's hope his health bears up. One thing he won't be doing while he's (said to be) in "hospital" is giving his side of the story.

    Was "WFZ" behind this? Cui bono?

    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/KB/2023/1618.html

    It's quite easy to form a reasonable opinion at say p=0.75 from the public version of that judgment what sector the national and international figure WFZ works in.

    Quite easy to guess too with lower p what the place was where he was arrested in 2022, and indeed who he is.
    By that argument Boris Johnson should be let off scott free. Thanks for confirming you didnt take lockdown seriously though.
    Do you disagree on the substantive premise though that most people in Britain broke lockdown rules?
    Possible behaviour by either Boris Johnson or myself is of little importance. We're only two adults out of ~60m.
    Actually i know many people who took lockdown incredibly seriously. Thanks for confirming your cavalier attitude to spreading a virus during a pandemic though.
    Welcome to PB

    1) if a planet crashes on the Ukraine /Republic of China border, on what side
    EPG said:

    moonshine said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    Isn’t the allegation here that the chap was under 18? Which would make it soliciting child porn? And a crime?

    London branch of the bacon covering themselves in glory yet again it seems to me. Establishment circling the wagons.
    I'm talking about Sean_F's outline of a scenario, not anything else. To my mind, gross misconduct means the ability to breach the usual contract and legal rights of employments. With all due respect to HR as a specialty, that makes me think I'd rather hear from the lawyers.
    In HR world it’s not breaking laws, it’s Bringing The Company Into Disrepute.

    I mentioned the other day, the story of some traders who drank some very expensive wine at a lunch. They paid for the wine with their own money. They committed no crime. They even tipped 15% on the vast bill They were sacked when it got in the papers - and it was upheld in court.

    Why was it upheld though?

    Lunch is during the work day and alcohol at lunchtime is a murky area nowadays.

    If the traders had drank some very expensive win on a Friday night when they weren't due back to work until Monday, then would it have been upheld in court?
    They made the front page of the Evening Standard.

    That was the offence. Bad publicity for their employer.
    Would make sense if it had been very cheap wine.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    Ratters said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    No evidence Huw knew the young man was a drug addict.

    Onlyfans and similar are very popular sites where people legally pay for explicit photos etc of people. It's just like porn, except for the creators often make much more money.

    If using such a site in your own time is a matter of gross misconduct, I would suggest your HR policy is outdated and potentially illegal.
    I would prefer to take the advice of the professionals on HR matters.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    A
    Taz said:

    MikeL said:

    The most important news this week regarding the BBC came out yesterday - and it's been totally missed by the entire media - the latest figure for the number of TV licences in force.

    March 2019 - 26.2m
    March 2020 - 25.9m
    March 2021 - 25.2m
    March 2022 - 24.8m
    March 2023 - 24.4m

    So down 400k in the last 12 months and not far off down 2 million in the last 4 years - although note that some of the fall in 2020/21 was dead people and old people who had moved being deleted from the system (people who the BBC had previously been paid for automatically when the Government paid for all over 75s).

    And this at a time when the population and number of households in the country continues to rise.

    Almost 3 million households have now formally declared to the BBC that they don't need a TV licence. And the BBC believes the evasion rate is now over 10% (having historically been about 7%).

    Contrary to popular perception, the BBC is going to be absolutely desperate to get rid of the TV licence when the Royal Charter expires at the end of 2027 - because at this rate of decline they are going to face permanent and severe contraction.

    The only question now is will Starmer agree to a "media levy" on all households - which will annoy everyone who doesn't now have a TV Licence - but if he doesn't the BBC is in big trouble - and far, far bigger trouble than anything to do with Huw Edwards.

    Richard Sharp was talking about the same thing at the weekend. Quite how popular it would be remains to be seen.I suspect it wouldn’t be.

    Also Capita (IIRC) who collect the license fee would be far from happy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66140890

    The BBC just needs to bite the bullet and seek its funding elsewhere either via ads, subscriptions or by whatever other means that does not rely on a license fee or taxation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66140890
    It will be a tax on internet access - mobile or fixed. Easy to collect, hard to evade.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    If his contract had that clause then fair enough . I find the Nazi thing disturbing but having sex online and posting pictures I could care less as long as it was consensual and the parties involved agreed to putting them out there .
    You mean you COULDN'T care less? Not "could"!
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 757
    He's lost any gravitas he once had. Seems sad. If no crime was commited, maybe blackmailed.

    Will we cancel Alan Turing one day?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    I love it, TSE obviously doesn't :)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    Sean_F said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    It’s not been confirmed that any money changed hands and is there proof Edwards even knew the person involved was a drug addict or even if that person was actually a drug addict. The police found no criminality and they were under a lot of pressure given the baying mob wanted a public flogging !
    Evidently the BBC consider the issue serious enough to have suspended the individual in question, and for the BBC itself to have been giving the story top billing for the past three days.
    Poor leadership from the BBC.
    In Cummings-speak, this is a denial-of-service attack on the BBC and they have walked into it and are now flailing about self-destructively.
    I'm no fan of the BBC, but I think the BBC have played it with a straight bat and done nothing wrong here.

    If a serious allegation is made, then it should be investigated. Pending investigation then a suspension is entirely appropriate, but in such circumstances a suspension is not a sanction and is not a predetermination of wrong doing.

    The Police have investigated him and found no crime committed. So that draws a line under that element.

    The BBC need to investigate and see if any internal policies that don't amount to crimes have been violated. EG any allegations of bullying etc may not be crimes but may be disciplinary offences.

    But its entirely possible that at the end of the investigation the BBC, like the Police, clear him of any wrongdoing.

    Being salacious is not gross misconduct any more than its not a crime.
    Davie has been flailing around for a week. Totally out of his depth, although the story has cleverly smokescreened Johnson's failure to hand over his phone.

    Has Boris handed over his dog and bone yet?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900

    Sean_F said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    It’s not been confirmed that any money changed hands and is there proof Edwards even knew the person involved was a drug addict or even if that person was actually a drug addict. The police found no criminality and they were under a lot of pressure given the baying mob wanted a public flogging !
    Evidently the BBC consider the issue serious enough to have suspended the individual in question, and for the BBC itself to have been giving the story top billing for the past three days.
    Poor leadership from the BBC.
    In Cummings-speak, this is a denial-of-service attack on the BBC and they have walked into it and are now flailing about self-destructively.
    I'm no fan of the BBC, but I think the BBC have played it with a straight bat and done nothing wrong here.

    If a serious allegation is made, then it should be investigated. Pending investigation then a suspension is entirely appropriate, but in such circumstances a suspension is not a sanction and is not a predetermination of wrong doing.

    The Police have investigated him and found no crime committed. So that draws a line under that element.

    The BBC need to investigate and see if any internal policies that don't amount to crimes have been violated. EG any allegations of bullying etc may not be crimes but may be disciplinary offences.

    But its entirely possible that at the end of the investigation the BBC, like the Police, clear him of any wrongdoing.

    Being salacious is not gross misconduct any more than its not a crime.
    How on earth could it be considered gross misconduct anyway? Man does things not at work not related to his job or employer?

    Let's remember - the story out out by The S*n was a lie. That lie could be considered to bring the Been into disrepute. But it was a lie, so it would be outrageous for it to be considered so.

    This is what is so egregious about the S*n story. They knew it was bullshit. And ran it anyway.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    Sean_F said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    It’s not been confirmed that any money changed hands and is there proof Edwards even knew the person involved was a drug addict or even if that person was actually a drug addict. The police found no criminality and they were under a lot of pressure given the baying mob wanted a public flogging !
    Evidently the BBC consider the issue serious enough to have suspended the individual in question, and for the BBC itself to have been giving the story top billing for the past three days.
    Poor leadership from the BBC.
    In Cummings-speak, this is a denial-of-service attack on the BBC and they have walked into it and are now flailing about self-destructively.
    I'm no fan of the BBC, but I think the BBC have played it with a straight bat and done nothing wrong here.

    If a serious allegation is made, then it should be investigated. Pending investigation then a suspension is entirely appropriate, but in such circumstances a suspension is not a sanction and is not a predetermination of wrong doing.

    The Police have investigated him and found no crime committed. So that draws a line under that element.

    The BBC need to investigate and see if any internal policies that don't amount to crimes have been violated. EG any allegations of bullying etc may not be crimes but may be disciplinary offences.

    But its entirely possible that at the end of the investigation the BBC, like the Police, clear him of any wrongdoing.

    Being salacious is not gross misconduct any more than its not a crime.
    How on earth could it be considered gross misconduct anyway? Man does things not at work not related to his job or employer?

    Let's remember - the story out out by The S*n was a lie. That lie could be considered to bring the Been into disrepute. But it was a lie, so it would be outrageous for it to be considered so.

    This is what is so egregious about the S*n story. They knew it was bullshit. And ran it anyway.
    Criminality outside the workplace can be gross misconduct, depending on the job and the crime. A speeding fine, probably not, GBH, much more likely.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Augusta said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Agreed. You have nailed it.
    The argument seems to be "who cares what happened? If The Sun is against him, I'm for him."
    No, the argument is who cares what happened if it was legal and between consenting adults?

    I couldn't care less if it was the Sun, the Mirror, Heat magazine or the Grauniad against him. What happens between two consenting adults is nobody else's business, end of story.
    Well that is not how employers, or wider society, incresingly view it, especially in the post Me Too era. If, say, a 60 year old guy were offering a 22 year old woman a role in a film he was directing, in return for her giving him sex, that would not be a criminal matter. One might argue it is simply a transaction between consenting adults. But, his employer, and the wider public, might take a dim view of the matter.
    Because that's a workplace issue. The moment you bring sexual relations into the work place by offering work privileges for sexual relations, it ceases to be a private matter between consenting adults since the workplace has been dragged into it.

    If a 60 year old is offering that to a woman in a role in a film he is directing then that's absolutely a workplace matter.

    If a 60 year old hooks up with a random 22 year old in a nightclub, or online, who's not an actress and has no connection to work, then its not.
    Then it's a miracle.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Taz said:

    MikeL said:

    The most important news this week regarding the BBC came out yesterday - and it's been totally missed by the entire media - the latest figure for the number of TV licences in force.

    March 2019 - 26.2m
    March 2020 - 25.9m
    March 2021 - 25.2m
    March 2022 - 24.8m
    March 2023 - 24.4m

    So down 400k in the last 12 months and not far off down 2 million in the last 4 years - although note that some of the fall in 2020/21 was dead people and old people who had moved being deleted from the system (people who the BBC had previously been paid for automatically when the Government paid for all over 75s).

    And this at a time when the population and number of households in the country continues to rise.

    Almost 3 million households have now formally declared to the BBC that they don't need a TV licence. And the BBC believes the evasion rate is now over 10% (having historically been about 7%).

    Contrary to popular perception, the BBC is going to be absolutely desperate to get rid of the TV licence when the Royal Charter expires at the end of 2027 - because at this rate of decline they are going to face permanent and severe contraction.

    The only question now is will Starmer agree to a "media levy" on all households - which will annoy everyone who doesn't now have a TV Licence - but if he doesn't the BBC is in big trouble - and far, far bigger trouble than anything to do with Huw Edwards.

    Richard Sharp was talking about the same thing at the weekend. Quite how popular it would be remains to be seen.I suspect it wouldn’t be.

    Also Capita (IIRC) who collect the license fee would be far from happy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66140890

    The BBC just needs to bite the bullet and seek its funding elsewhere either via ads, subscriptions or by whatever other means that does not rely on a license fee or taxation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66140890
    I think it should be split up.

    Educational content, news, world service, national events funded through general taxation.

    Entertainment content on a subscription model.

    The exact parameters would be one for debate but I think the principle is sound.

  • TazTaz Posts: 14,380

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    I quite enjoyed it. Not a classic but fun all the same.
  • A

    A

    Augusta said:

    Peck said:

    Augusta said:

    Peck said:

    Augusta said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Takagi-san: Huw Edwards
    Hans Gruber: The S*n
    Leon: the coked-up "bubby" with the Rolex

    Edwards hasn't been stitched up here. It wasn't a sting. He has behaved extremely dubiously. All the Sun have done is reported it. Stop trying to make him into a martyr.
    They claimed his "victim" was a 17 year old child.

    Child porn images. Groomed for cash.

    Which makes Edwards a paedophile, does it not?
    They claimed being the operative word...should the police investigate certainly and if guilty he should be a rolf a like. If not guilty it has destroyed a mans life and that of his family for no more than gossip
    Not really. His behaviour in threatening a young man was pretty disgusting. He also broke lockdown rules at a time when he was telling people to stay home.
    Almost everyone who wasn't in a care institution or prison etc. broke lockdown rules.

    Also how do we know he wasn't arrested at some time during the past few days? He probably was, to judge from what the Independent wrote in that URL.

    Sounds to me that whoever put this story into the Sun was making clear that they hold elint of him being at those railway stations when he shouldn't have been. Goodness knows what else they hold elint of him doing.

    I hinted at his history of depression before his name was released. (So did Jeremy Vine.) It's not surprising that he's done a Challenor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Challenor

    Let's hope his health bears up. One thing he won't be doing while he's (said to be) in "hospital" is giving his side of the story.

    Was "WFZ" behind this? Cui bono?

    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/KB/2023/1618.html

    It's quite easy to form a reasonable opinion at say p=0.75 from the public version of that judgment what sector the national and international figure WFZ works in.

    Quite easy to guess too with lower p what the place was where he was arrested in 2022, and indeed who he is.
    By that argument Boris Johnson should be let off scott free. Thanks for confirming you didnt take lockdown seriously though.
    Do you disagree on the substantive premise though that most people in Britain broke lockdown rules?
    Possible behaviour by either Boris Johnson or myself is of little importance. We're only two adults out of ~60m.
    Actually i know many people who took lockdown incredibly seriously. Thanks for confirming your cavalier attitude to spreading a virus during a pandemic though.
    Welcome to PB

    1) if a planet crashes on the Ukraine /Republic of China border, on what side
    EPG said:

    moonshine said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    Isn’t the allegation here that the chap was under 18? Which would make it soliciting child porn? And a crime?

    London branch of the bacon covering themselves in glory yet again it seems to me. Establishment circling the wagons.
    I'm talking about Sean_F's outline of a scenario, not anything else. To my mind, gross misconduct means the ability to breach the usual contract and legal rights of employments. With all due respect to HR as a specialty, that makes me think I'd rather hear from the lawyers.
    In HR world it’s not breaking laws, it’s Bringing The Company Into Disrepute.

    I mentioned the other day, the story of some traders who drank some very expensive wine at a lunch. They paid for the wine with their own money. They committed no crime. They even tipped 15% on the vast bill They were sacked when it got in the papers - and it was upheld in court.

    Why was it upheld though?

    Lunch is during the work day and alcohol at lunchtime is a murky area nowadays.

    If the traders had drank some very expensive win on a Friday night when they weren't due back to work until Monday, then would it have been upheld in court?
    They made the front page of the Evening Standard.

    That was the offence. Bad publicity for their employer.

    Edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1839963.stm
    New York Times puts a different slant on the story.

    Initially the bankers, who paid the bill with their own money, received only a slap on the wrist for having spent so lavishly -- and having been documented doing so in newspapers at the time -- while Barclays, like other banks here, was trying to project a new sobriety as an antidote to the excesses of the 1990's.

    But when some of the bankers secretly tried to pass off their part of the bill as client expenses, Barclays began firing them one by one.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/26/business/5-bankers-fired-from-barclays-over-62700-spent-at-meal.html

    Have you a link to a tribunal about this?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348

    Sean_F said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    It’s not been confirmed that any money changed hands and is there proof Edwards even knew the person involved was a drug addict or even if that person was actually a drug addict. The police found no criminality and they were under a lot of pressure given the baying mob wanted a public flogging !
    Evidently the BBC consider the issue serious enough to have suspended the individual in question, and for the BBC itself to have been giving the story top billing for the past three days.
    Poor leadership from the BBC.
    In Cummings-speak, this is a denial-of-service attack on the BBC and they have walked into it and are now flailing about self-destructively.
    I'm no fan of the BBC, but I think the BBC have played it with a straight bat and done nothing wrong here.

    If a serious allegation is made, then it should be investigated. Pending investigation then a suspension is entirely appropriate, but in such circumstances a suspension is not a sanction and is not a predetermination of wrong doing.

    The Police have investigated him and found no crime committed. So that draws a line under that element.

    The BBC need to investigate and see if any internal policies that don't amount to crimes have been violated. EG any allegations of bullying etc may not be crimes but may be disciplinary offences.

    But its entirely possible that at the end of the investigation the BBC, like the Police, clear him of any wrongdoing.

    Being salacious is not gross misconduct any more than its not a crime.
    How on earth could it be considered gross misconduct anyway? Man does things not at work not related to his job or employer?

    Let's remember - the story out out by The S*n was a lie. That lie could be considered to bring the Been into disrepute. But it was a lie, so it would be outrageous for it to be considered so.

    This is what is so egregious about the S*n story. They knew it was bullshit. And ran it anyway.
    I think you'd be surprised about does get treated as gross misconduct these days. If the person in question was truly a drug addict, then that becomes a safeguarding issue, in the eyes of a lot of employers.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    Yes.

    Maybe not the greatest 2 hours of your life... but well worth a watch.
  • Sean_F said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    It’s not been confirmed that any money changed hands and is there proof Edwards even knew the person involved was a drug addict or even if that person was actually a drug addict. The police found no criminality and they were under a lot of pressure given the baying mob wanted a public flogging !
    Evidently the BBC consider the issue serious enough to have suspended the individual in question, and for the BBC itself to have been giving the story top billing for the past three days.
    Poor leadership from the BBC.
    In Cummings-speak, this is a denial-of-service attack on the BBC and they have walked into it and are now flailing about self-destructively.
    I'm no fan of the BBC, but I think the BBC have played it with a straight bat and done nothing wrong here.

    If a serious allegation is made, then it should be investigated. Pending investigation then a suspension is entirely appropriate, but in such circumstances a suspension is not a sanction and is not a predetermination of wrong doing.

    The Police have investigated him and found no crime committed. So that draws a line under that element.

    The BBC need to investigate and see if any internal policies that don't amount to crimes have been violated. EG any allegations of bullying etc may not be crimes but may be disciplinary offences.

    But its entirely possible that at the end of the investigation the BBC, like the Police, clear him of any wrongdoing.

    Being salacious is not gross misconduct any more than its not a crime.
    How on earth could it be considered gross misconduct anyway? Man does things not at work not related to his job or employer?

    Let's remember - the story out out by The S*n was a lie. That lie could be considered to bring the Been into disrepute. But it was a lie, so it would be outrageous for it to be considered so.

    This is what is so egregious about the S*n story. They knew it was bullshit. And ran it anyway.
    If the lie was the truth it would be a crime, and he could have gone to prison, and it would be gross misconduct.

    If he's engaged in bullying as also alleged, that could also be gross misconduct.

    If its just consensual acts between consenting adults, no crime, and not gross misconduct in my eyes either.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411
    I wish I was interesting enough to have sexual fetishes.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    If his contract had that clause then fair enough . I find the Nazi thing disturbing but having sex online and posting pictures I could care less as long as it was consensual and the parties involved agreed to putting them out there .
    How much less could you care?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    I’ve never been “on” OnlyFans.
    But I presume it has significant appeal and not a few of its subscribers will be 60 yo men.

    So there’s also a massive hypocrisy angle to this.

    I very much doubt the scribblers at the Sun, or the Murdoch clan itself are especially chaste.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    Best viewed in the festive season. Happy holidays!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    Incidentally, isn’t it virtually certain that the person in question was a employed via a contracting company by the BBC?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    It’s not been confirmed that any money changed hands and is there proof Edwards even knew the person involved was a drug addict or even if that person was actually a drug addict. The police found no criminality and they were under a lot of pressure given the baying mob wanted a public flogging !
    Evidently the BBC consider the issue serious enough to have suspended the individual in question, and for the BBC itself to have been giving the story top billing for the past three days.
    Poor leadership from the BBC.
    In Cummings-speak, this is a denial-of-service attack on the BBC and they have walked into it and are now flailing about self-destructively.
    I'm no fan of the BBC, but I think the BBC have played it with a straight bat and done nothing wrong here.

    If a serious allegation is made, then it should be investigated. Pending investigation then a suspension is entirely appropriate, but in such circumstances a suspension is not a sanction and is not a predetermination of wrong doing.

    The Police have investigated him and found no crime committed. So that draws a line under that element.

    The BBC need to investigate and see if any internal policies that don't amount to crimes have been violated. EG any allegations of bullying etc may not be crimes but may be disciplinary offences.

    But its entirely possible that at the end of the investigation the BBC, like the Police, clear him of any wrongdoing.

    Being salacious is not gross misconduct any more than its not a crime.
    How on earth could it be considered gross misconduct anyway? Man does things not at work not related to his job or employer?

    Let's remember - the story out out by The S*n was a lie. That lie could be considered to bring the Been into disrepute. But it was a lie, so it would be outrageous for it to be considered so.

    This is what is so egregious about the S*n story. They knew it was bullshit. And ran it anyway.
    I think you'd be surprised about does get treated as gross misconduct these days. If the person in question was truly a drug addict, then that becomes a safeguarding issue, in the eyes of a lot of employers.
    I missed out the word "non-criminal" in my description of things done outside of work.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    I wish I was interesting enough to have sexual fetishes.

    I suspect those most voluble about their fetishes are in fact the most boring.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Scott_xP said:

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    Yes.

    Maybe not the greatest 2 hours of your life... but well worth a watch.
    No.

    It's tripe. I cannot think of a single redeeming feature tbh. None. Zilch.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    I’ve never been “on” OnlyFans.
    But I presume it has significant appeal and not a few of its subscribers will be 60 yo men.

    So there’s also a massive hypocrisy angle to this.

    I very much doubt the scribblers at the Sun, or the Murdoch clan itself are especially chaste.
    I’ll admit to being very boring and not really understanding what it is…
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    Incidentally, isn’t it virtually certain that the person in question was a employed via a contracting company by the BBC?
    I've been assuming that away for the purposes of this chat about what HR types think is gross misconduct. But in reality, I'd say so too.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900

    Sean_F said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    It’s not been confirmed that any money changed hands and is there proof Edwards even knew the person involved was a drug addict or even if that person was actually a drug addict. The police found no criminality and they were under a lot of pressure given the baying mob wanted a public flogging !
    Evidently the BBC consider the issue serious enough to have suspended the individual in question, and for the BBC itself to have been giving the story top billing for the past three days.
    Poor leadership from the BBC.
    In Cummings-speak, this is a denial-of-service attack on the BBC and they have walked into it and are now flailing about self-destructively.
    I'm no fan of the BBC, but I think the BBC have played it with a straight bat and done nothing wrong here.

    If a serious allegation is made, then it should be investigated. Pending investigation then a suspension is entirely appropriate, but in such circumstances a suspension is not a sanction and is not a predetermination of wrong doing.

    The Police have investigated him and found no crime committed. So that draws a line under that element.

    The BBC need to investigate and see if any internal policies that don't amount to crimes have been violated. EG any allegations of bullying etc may not be crimes but may be disciplinary offences.

    But its entirely possible that at the end of the investigation the BBC, like the Police, clear him of any wrongdoing.

    Being salacious is not gross misconduct any more than its not a crime.
    How on earth could it be considered gross misconduct anyway? Man does things not at work not related to his job or employer?

    Let's remember - the story out out by The S*n was a lie. That lie could be considered to bring the Been into disrepute. But it was a lie, so it would be outrageous for it to be considered so.

    This is what is so egregious about the S*n story. They knew it was bullshit. And ran it anyway.
    If the lie was the truth it would be a crime, and he could have gone to prison, and it would be gross misconduct.

    If he's engaged in bullying as also alleged, that could also be gross misconduct.

    If its just consensual acts between consenting adults, no crime, and not gross misconduct in my eyes either.
    Which is why I hope that Huw Edwards sues them into extinction. This isn't just printing very libellous lies by accident. This is knowing they were lies, printing them anyway and then doubling down with attacks on the BBC for not reacting to its lies.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    So no crime has apparently been committed in this case. Can someone now explain to me why the last week has been dominated by purile headlines?

    Is it so prurient for parents to be upset that the person reading them their news on the BBC might be contacting their seventeen year old child for sexual gratification?
    Denied by the person involved and indeed the cops. Am I missing something?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited July 2023

    A

    Augusta said:

    Peck said:

    Augusta said:

    Peck said:

    Augusta said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Takagi-san: Huw Edwards
    Hans Gruber: The S*n
    Leon: the coked-up "bubby" with the Rolex

    Edwards hasn't been stitched up here. It wasn't a sting. He has behaved extremely dubiously. All the Sun have done is reported it. Stop trying to make him into a martyr.
    They claimed his "victim" was a 17 year old child.

    Child porn images. Groomed for cash.

    Which makes Edwards a paedophile, does it not?
    They claimed being the operative word...should the police investigate certainly and if guilty he should be a rolf a like. If not guilty it has destroyed a mans life and that of his family for no more than gossip
    Not really. His behaviour in threatening a young man was pretty disgusting. He also broke lockdown rules at a time when he was telling people to stay home.
    Almost everyone who wasn't in a care institution or prison etc. broke lockdown rules.

    Also how do we know he wasn't arrested at some time during the past few days? He probably was, to judge from what the Independent wrote in that URL.

    Sounds to me that whoever put this story into the Sun was making clear that they hold elint of him being at those railway stations when he shouldn't have been. Goodness knows what else they hold elint of him doing.

    I hinted at his history of depression before his name was released. (So did Jeremy Vine.) It's not surprising that he's done a Challenor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Challenor

    Let's hope his health bears up. One thing he won't be doing while he's (said to be) in "hospital" is giving his side of the story.

    Was "WFZ" behind this? Cui bono?

    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/KB/2023/1618.html

    It's quite easy to form a reasonable opinion at say p=0.75 from the public version of that judgment what sector the national and international figure WFZ works in.

    Quite easy to guess too with lower p what the place was where he was arrested in 2022, and indeed who he is.
    By that argument Boris Johnson should be let off scott free. Thanks for confirming you didnt take lockdown seriously though.
    Do you disagree on the substantive premise though that most people in Britain broke lockdown rules?
    Possible behaviour by either Boris Johnson or myself is of little importance. We're only two adults out of ~60m.
    Actually i know many people who took lockdown incredibly seriously. Thanks for confirming your cavalier attitude to spreading a virus during a pandemic though.
    Welcome to PB

    1) if a planet crashes on the Ukraine /Republic of China border, on what side
    EPG said:

    moonshine said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    Isn’t the allegation here that the chap was under 18? Which would make it soliciting child porn? And a crime?

    London branch of the bacon covering themselves in glory yet again it seems to me. Establishment circling the wagons.
    I'm talking about Sean_F's outline of a scenario, not anything else. To my mind, gross misconduct means the ability to breach the usual contract and legal rights of employments. With all due respect to HR as a specialty, that makes me think I'd rather hear from the lawyers.
    In HR world it’s not breaking laws, it’s Bringing The Company Into Disrepute.

    I mentioned the other day, the story of some traders who drank some very expensive wine at a lunch. They paid for the wine with their own money. They committed no crime. They even tipped 15% on the vast bill They were sacked when it got in the papers - and it was upheld in court.

    Why was it upheld though?

    Lunch is during the work day and alcohol at lunchtime is a murky area nowadays.

    If the traders had drank some very expensive win on a Friday night when they weren't due back to work until Monday, then would it have been upheld in court?
    Depends what the company policy/their contracts say. There’s a few hoops that am employee would have to jump through to show the dismissal fair but it wouldn’t be impossible.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    [Deleted]
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.
  • EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    Indeed, if HR lawyers never made a mistake or got a judgment wrong you'd never have tribunals with both parties having representation.

    Indeed my experience of lawyers is they rarely make a categorical statement that something controversial is absolutely the case. They love to hedge their sentences with words like "may" almost as much as the media does.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    ...

    Sean_F said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    It’s not been confirmed that any money changed hands and is there proof Edwards even knew the person involved was a drug addict or even if that person was actually a drug addict. The police found no criminality and they were under a lot of pressure given the baying mob wanted a public flogging !
    Evidently the BBC consider the issue serious enough to have suspended the individual in question, and for the BBC itself to have been giving the story top billing for the past three days.
    Poor leadership from the BBC.
    In Cummings-speak, this is a denial-of-service attack on the BBC and they have walked into it and are now flailing about self-destructively.
    I'm no fan of the BBC, but I think the BBC have played it with a straight bat and done nothing wrong here.

    If a serious allegation is made, then it should be investigated. Pending investigation then a suspension is entirely appropriate, but in such circumstances a suspension is not a sanction and is not a predetermination of wrong doing.

    The Police have investigated him and found no crime committed. So that draws a line under that element.

    The BBC need to investigate and see if any internal policies that don't amount to crimes have been violated. EG any allegations of bullying etc may not be crimes but may be disciplinary offences.

    But its entirely possible that at the end of the investigation the BBC, like the Police, clear him of any wrongdoing.

    Being salacious is not gross misconduct any more than its not a crime.
    Davie has been flailing around for a week. Totally out of his depth, although the story has cleverly smokescreened Johnson's failure to hand over his phone.

    Has Boris handed over his dog and bone yet?
    Does it have images of 17 year olds on it?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Scott_xP said:

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    Yes.

    Maybe not the greatest 2 hours of your life... but well worth a watch.
    No.

    It's tripe. I cannot think of a single redeeming feature tbh. None. Zilch.
    Off to ComHome with you.

    https://youtu.be/sLMRh62sazs
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I have tried to watch “Under Seige” twice, and both times I just fell asleep. Stephen Segal is totally uninteresting.
  • Huw is one of the highest paid, previously most respected, newsreaders on the publicly owned broadcaster

    That doesn't just give him celebrity; it brings him authority and power too

    He's not just an ordinary guy with kinks

    He has abused his position - see the Beeb confirmed stories about his threats - he deserves to lose it

    If he has does anything illegal on top of that then he should be punished for it, if not: not

    But he shouldn't be forgiven his abuse of power, just because he's gone a bit nuts now

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    The new DART train link from Luton parkway station to Luton airport is a delight. Shame about the airport
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    I have tried to watch “Under Seige” twice, and both times I just fell asleep. Stephen Segal is totally uninteresting.

    Well that really is rubbish - your other list though, they're better.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    I have tried to watch “Under Seige” twice, and both times I just fell asleep. Stephen Segal is totally uninteresting.

    Stephen Segal is the last reason to watch under Siege.

    There are at least 2 much better reasons
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    Neither Alien (sci-fi horror) nor Beverly Hills Cop (comedy) fit that category.

    Alien is excellent; BHC, amusing.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    I’ve never been “on” OnlyFans.
    But I presume it has significant appeal and not a few of its subscribers will be 60 yo men.

    So there’s also a massive hypocrisy angle to this.

    I very much doubt the scribblers at the Sun, or the Murdoch clan itself are especially chaste.
    I’ll admit to being very boring and not really understanding what it is…
    Someone posted a YouTube on it, which I made a note to watch but now can’t be bothered.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638
    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    As a point of fact, is there any evidence this took place on OnlyFans?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    It is very good. It was so good it codified a genre, and companies spent years trying to reproduce the formula, with varying degrees of success.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    I wish I was interesting enough to have sexual fetishes.

    I suspect those most voluble about their fetishes are in fact the most boring.
    I'd imagine that having one is in the same spectrum as having blue internet hair instead of a personality.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    If his contract had that clause then fair enough . I find the Nazi thing disturbing but having sex online and posting pictures I could care less as long as it was consensual and the parties involved agreed to putting them out there .
    You mean you COULDN'T care less? Not "could"!
    Quite. It's one of the stupider Americanisms too.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Sean_F said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    It’s not been confirmed that any money changed hands and is there proof Edwards even knew the person involved was a drug addict or even if that person was actually a drug addict. The police found no criminality and they were under a lot of pressure given the baying mob wanted a public flogging !
    Evidently the BBC consider the issue serious enough to have suspended the individual in question, and for the BBC itself to have been giving the story top billing for the past three days.
    Poor leadership from the BBC.
    In Cummings-speak, this is a denial-of-service attack on the BBC and they have walked into it and are now flailing about self-destructively.
    I'm no fan of the BBC, but I think the BBC have played it with a straight bat and done nothing wrong here.

    If a serious allegation is made, then it should be investigated. Pending investigation then a suspension is entirely appropriate, but in such circumstances a suspension is not a sanction and is not a predetermination of wrong doing.

    The Police have investigated him and found no crime committed. So that draws a line under that element.

    The BBC need to investigate and see if any internal policies that don't amount to crimes have been violated. EG any allegations of bullying etc may not be crimes but may be disciplinary offences.

    But its entirely possible that at the end of the investigation the BBC, like the Police, clear him of any wrongdoing.

    Being salacious is not gross misconduct any more than its not a crime.
    How on earth could it be considered gross misconduct anyway? Man does things not at work not related to his job or employer?

    Let's remember - the story out out by The S*n was a lie. That lie could be considered to bring the Been into disrepute. But it was a lie, so it would be outrageous for it to be considered so.

    This is what is so egregious about the S*n story. They knew it was bullshit. And ran it anyway.
    If the lie was the truth it would be a crime, and he could have gone to prison, and it would be gross misconduct.

    If he's engaged in bullying as also alleged, that could also be gross misconduct.

    If its just consensual acts between consenting adults, no crime, and not gross misconduct in my eyes either.
    Which is why I hope that Huw Edwards sues them into extinction. This isn't just printing very libellous lies by accident. This is knowing they were lies, printing them anyway and then doubling down with attacks on the BBC for not reacting to its lies.
    The BBC should carry out an undercover investigation of the habits and practices of Sun managers and journalists, and hopefully find enough incriminating evidence to fill a programme. Let’s see how they like it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Monkeys said:

    He's lost any gravitas he once had. Seems sad. If no crime was commited, maybe blackmailed.

    Will we cancel Alan Turing one day?

    At the risk of belabouring the obvious, we did.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Leon said:

    The new DART train link from Luton parkway station to Luton airport is a delight. Shame about the airport

    Are you off on your travels again? Where to this time?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Foxy said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    As a point of fact, is there any evidence this took place on OnlyFans?
    I'm inquiring specifically about Sean_F's bare-bones scenario where gross misconduct includes paying for porn in one's own time, to a person who turns out to be an addict. No, I don't know much at all about the details of the current controversy.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    If his contract had that clause then fair enough . I find the Nazi thing disturbing but having sex online and posting pictures I could care less as long as it was consensual and the parties involved agreed to putting them out there .
    You mean you COULDN'T care less? Not "could"!
    Quite. It's one of the stupider Americanisms too.
    It's just sarcasm, no different to saying a cliché like "yeah, right" when you mean "no".
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    EPG said:

    I wish I was interesting enough to have sexual fetishes.

    I suspect those most voluble about their fetishes are in fact the most boring.
    I'd imagine that having one is in the same spectrum as having blue internet hair instead of a personality.
    It is very adjacent to the fact that polyamorous people are all fat, ugly and stupid.

    And at the other end of the continuum are people who wear novelty ties.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    I like to think of myself as very unaffected by current 'woke' mores, but I re-watched Lethal Weapon on TV the other day and the way Riggs (Mel Gibson's character) carries on is very 'toxic male' - I felt dirty even as I thought this. Wouldn't stop me watching it mind. That series is 'OK' - hasn't aged brilliantly. Die Hard(s) until recent 'comebacks' are very good. Best of that bunch are the Alien(s).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    Scott_xP said:

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    Yes.

    Maybe not the greatest 2 hours of your life... but well worth a watch.
    No.

    It's tripe. I cannot think of a single redeeming feature tbh. None. Zilch.
    Bruce Willis became partially deaf due to the gunshot noise when he does a mag dump from his Beretta under the table to kill the bad guy above. Blanks are loud and in a confined space can lead to ear damage
  • Scott_xP said:

    I have tried to watch “Under Seige” twice, and both times I just fell asleep. Stephen Segal is totally uninteresting.

    Stephen Segal is the last reason to watch under Siege.

    There are at least 2 much better reasons
    That birthday cake filling is something else!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    I like to think of myself as very unaffected by current 'woke' mores, but I re-watched Lethal Weapon on TV the other day and the way Riggs (Mel Gibson's character) carries on is very 'toxic male' - I felt dirty even as I thought this. Wouldn't stop me watching it mind. That series is 'OK' - hasn't aged brilliantly. Die Hard(s) until recent 'comebacks' are very good. Best of that bunch are the Alien(s).
    If you want to see a film that has aged BADLY, try “Manhattan”.

    Apparently this was beloved of film critics, until only about 10 years ago. But watching it in 2023, Allen comes across as a spoilt and unpleasant narcissist who seems to be using the entire film to indulge his own, slightly unsavoury sexual fantasies.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    EPG said:

    Foxy said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    As a point of fact, is there any evidence this took place on OnlyFans?
    I'm inquiring specifically about Sean_F's bare-bones scenario where gross misconduct includes paying for porn in one's own time, to a person who turns out to be an addict. No, I don't know much at all about the details of the current controversy.
    You can make the argument that the law goes too far in allowing employers to dismiss people for actions outside of the workplace that they say will bring them into disrepute.

    However, it is the case that employment law allows them considerable latitude to do so.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    Leon said:

    The new DART train link from Luton parkway station to Luton airport is a delight. Shame about the airport

    Are you off on your travels again? Where to this time?
    Leon, were you wafted here from paradise? No, Luton Airport.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    Yes.

    Maybe not the greatest 2 hours of your life... but well worth a watch.
    No.

    It's tripe. I cannot think of a single redeeming feature tbh. None. Zilch.
    Bruce Willis became partially deaf due to the gunshot noise when he does a mag dump from his Beretta under the table to kill the bad guy above. Blanks are loud and in a confined space can lead to ear damage
    I can't see that as a redeeming feature tbh.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    EPG said:

    nico679 said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    If his contract had that clause then fair enough . I find the Nazi thing disturbing but having sex online and posting pictures I could care less as long as it was consensual and the parties involved agreed to putting them out there .
    You mean you COULDN'T care less? Not "could"!
    Quite. It's one of the stupider Americanisms too.
    It's just sarcasm, no different to saying a cliché like "yeah, right" when you mean "no".
    I don't think that explanation really meets the case. I've never seen anybody say 'I could care less' in an even vaguely sarcastic/ironic tone. It's just unfortunate.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411

    I have tried to watch “Under Seige” twice, and both times I just fell asleep. Stephen Segal is totally uninteresting.

    Err, The Cake?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    Take the 20th century die hards, terminators and alien/aliens. Leave the rest.

    Would you like me to give you a minute-by-minute texting of Alien? I happen to have a copy on hand... 😀
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    ...

    Leon said:

    The new DART train link from Luton parkway station to Luton airport is a delight. Shame about the airport

    Are you off on your travels again? Where to this time?
    Leon, were you wafted here from paradise? No, Luton Airport.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaEjIlZsuTg
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581
    Sean_F said:

    Ratters said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    No evidence Huw knew the young man was a drug addict.

    Onlyfans and similar are very popular sites where people legally pay for explicit photos etc of people. It's just like porn, except for the creators often make much more money.

    If using such a site in your own time is a matter of gross misconduct, I would suggest your HR policy is outdated and potentially illegal.
    I would prefer to take the advice of the professionals on HR matters.
    I don't trust HR professionals. Even the name bugs me.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    There was a very odd post this morning about the Sun “popping champagne”.

    But they’ve fucked this up, haven’t they?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411
    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Foxy said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    As a point of fact, is there any evidence this took place on OnlyFans?
    I'm inquiring specifically about Sean_F's bare-bones scenario where gross misconduct includes paying for porn in one's own time, to a person who turns out to be an addict. No, I don't know much at all about the details of the current controversy.
    You can make the argument that the law goes too far in allowing employers to dismiss people for actions outside of the workplace that they say will bring them into disrepute.

    However, it is the case that employment law allows them considerable latitude to do so.
    I know a very good and capable 35-year old guy, who had a good career in project management of complex systems integration in the rail industry totally destroyed - forever - because he took cocaine at a party with some friends on a Sunday night, and was randomly drugs tested at 9.30am the next morning (it happens to a random pool once a year) and he got unlucky and it was still in his system.

    It's not my cup of tea but I thought that was a bit harsh. The problem with zero tolerance is that it really is zero tolerance.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    Get! To! Da! Choppa!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    I like to think of myself as very unaffected by current 'woke' mores, but I re-watched Lethal Weapon on TV the other day and the way Riggs (Mel Gibson's character) carries on is very 'toxic male' - I felt dirty even as I thought this. Wouldn't stop me watching it mind. That series is 'OK' - hasn't aged brilliantly. Die Hard(s) until recent 'comebacks' are very good. Best of that bunch are the Alien(s).
    If you want to see a film that has aged BADLY, try “Manhattan”.

    Apparently this was beloved of film critics, until only about 10 years ago. But watching it in 2023, Allen comes across as a spoilt and unpleasant narcissist who seems to be using the entire film to indulge his own, slightly unsavoury sexual fantasies.
    I haven't seen it, and you do not surprise me. I probably won't seek it out.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    There was a very odd post this morning about the Sun “popping champagne”.

    But they’ve fucked this up, haven’t they?

    @arusbridger
    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848?s=20
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    I like to think of myself as very unaffected by current 'woke' mores, but I re-watched Lethal Weapon on TV the other day and the way Riggs (Mel Gibson's character) carries on is very 'toxic male' - I felt dirty even as I thought this. Wouldn't stop me watching it mind. That series is 'OK' - hasn't aged brilliantly. Die Hard(s) until recent 'comebacks' are very good. Best of that bunch are the Alien(s).
    If you want to see a film that has aged BADLY, try “Manhattan”.

    Apparently this was beloved of film critics, until only about 10 years ago. But watching it in 2023, Allen comes across as a spoilt and unpleasant narcissist who seems to be using the entire film to indulge his own, slightly unsavoury sexual fantasies.
    "Arthur" has aged poorly too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    There was a very odd post this morning about the Sun “popping champagne”.

    But they’ve fucked this up, haven’t they?

    One does hope so.

    I can't bear the smug Edwards, but the Sun's vile sting operation has been truly evil.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Foxy said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    As a point of fact, is there any evidence this took place on OnlyFans?
    I'm inquiring specifically about Sean_F's bare-bones scenario where gross misconduct includes paying for porn in one's own time, to a person who turns out to be an addict. No, I don't know much at all about the details of the current controversy.
    You can make the argument that the law goes too far in allowing employers to dismiss people for actions outside of the workplace that they say will bring them into disrepute.

    However, it is the case that employment law allows them considerable latitude to do so.
    I know a very good and capable 35-year old guy, who had a good career in project management of complex systems integration in the rail industry totally destroyed - forever - because he took cocaine at a party with some friends on a Sunday night, and was randomly drugs tested at 9.30am the next morning (it happens to a random pool once a year) and he got unlucky and it was still in his system.

    It's not my cup of tea but I thought that was a bit harsh. The problem with zero tolerance is that it really is zero tolerance.
    For sure, that is harsh to my mind. But the intersection of lawbreaking outside the workplace, plus potential intoxication while working, gives them a starting point under law.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2023
    BBC now reporting on some complaints thet have received from staff.

    BBC Newsnight has also spoken to one current and one former BBC worker who said they’d received inappropriate messages from Edwards, some late at night and signed off with kisses.

    One said they felt it was an abuse of power by someone very senior in the organisation. Both workers who spoke to Newsnight, and the other employee, spoke of a reluctance among junior staff to complain to managers about the conduct of high-profile colleagues in case it adversely affected their careers.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-66159469
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Die Hard not a Christmas film, cos it came out in the summer?

    Next you'll be telling me that Christmas pudding and clootie dumpling are summer desserts cos they are best made at that time and left to mature. Or Christmas presents aren't presents because the Scalextric was made in July, ordered in October and collected in November.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411
    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Ratters said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    No evidence Huw knew the young man was a drug addict.

    Onlyfans and similar are very popular sites where people legally pay for explicit photos etc of people. It's just like porn, except for the creators often make much more money.

    If using such a site in your own time is a matter of gross misconduct, I would suggest your HR policy is outdated and potentially illegal.
    I would prefer to take the advice of the professionals on HR matters.
    I don't trust HR professionals. Even the name bugs me.
    They are normally purveyors of due process in the wider interests of the business, nothing more.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    I like to think of myself as very unaffected by current 'woke' mores, but I re-watched Lethal Weapon on TV the other day and the way Riggs (Mel Gibson's character) carries on is very 'toxic male' - I felt dirty even as I thought this. Wouldn't stop me watching it mind. That series is 'OK' - hasn't aged brilliantly. Die Hard(s) until recent 'comebacks' are very good. Best of that bunch are the Alien(s).
    If you want to see a film that has aged BADLY, try “Manhattan”.

    Apparently this was beloved of film critics, until only about 10 years ago. But watching it in 2023, Allen comes across as a spoilt and unpleasant narcissist who seems to be using the entire film to indulge his own, slightly unsavoury sexual fantasies.
    A salutary lesson.

    What's in vogue can quickly go out of vogue.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Ratters said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    No evidence Huw knew the young man was a drug addict.

    Onlyfans and similar are very popular sites where people legally pay for explicit photos etc of people. It's just like porn, except for the creators often make much more money.

    If using such a site in your own time is a matter of gross misconduct, I would suggest your HR policy is outdated and potentially illegal.
    I would prefer to take the advice of the professionals on HR matters.
    I don't trust HR professionals. Even the name bugs me.
    In my experience, often a godsend when faced with homicidal ir insane managers.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419

    There was a very odd post this morning about the Sun “popping champagne”.

    But they’ve fucked this up, haven’t they?

    One does hope so.

    I can't bear the smug Edwards, but the Sun's vile sting operation has been truly evil.
    I cannot help but feel that if these revelations were coming out about Andrew Neil, or Jacob Rees Mogg, or the Duke of York, the PB-ers currently clutching their pearls about 'mental health', 'vile sting operation' etc. would be singing a somewhat different tune.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    Neither Alien (sci-fi horror) nor Beverly Hills Cop (comedy) fit that category.

    Alien is excellent; BHC, amusing.
    Alien was late 70's wasn't it?

    I have never seen any of the Die Hards, nor Lethal Weapons, nor any Star Wars (apart from the original) nor any Star Trek (apart from the 1960's original), nor LoTR films, nor The Hobbit, nor any "Superhero" films.

    Action films are not really my cup of tea. I find special effects boring, and too often a substitute to cover up thin characterisation and plot.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By the way, is Die Hard any good?

    Yes.

    Maybe not the greatest 2 hours of your life... but well worth a watch.
    No.

    It's tripe. I cannot think of a single redeeming feature tbh. None. Zilch.
    Bruce Willis became partially deaf due to the gunshot noise when he does a mag dump from his Beretta under the table to kill the bad guy above. Blanks are loud and in a confined space can lead to ear damage
    I can't see that as a redeeming feature tbh.
    No, but it is interesting. The guns of the first die hard movie are seen as one of the better selections in a very gun-happy decade, with many/all? of the bad guy guns being European and quirky/elegant/effete/expensive, and the good guys carrying solid American ironmongery (except for McClane''s Beretta, which is Italian). Hans Gruber's Heckler and Koch P7 has a unique safety cutoff in the grip and that model now commands high prices amongst rich American gunnuts who are Die Hard fans. Which is all of them.

    Here is a YouTube on the matter:: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kNCJEKRkRP0

    In short, whilst it would be possibly silly to describe it as genius, it is a very well put together movie. Everything worked
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Ratters said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    No evidence Huw knew the young man was a drug addict.

    Onlyfans and similar are very popular sites where people legally pay for explicit photos etc of people. It's just like porn, except for the creators often make much more money.

    If using such a site in your own time is a matter of gross misconduct, I would suggest your HR policy is outdated and potentially illegal.
    I would prefer to take the advice of the professionals on HR matters.
    I don't trust HR professionals. Even the name bugs me.
    They are normally purveyors of due process in the wider interests of the business, nothing more.
    Sympathetically I feel they're caught between two that come into conflict: to support leadership and management in policy implementation, and to manage processes and obligations to staff, including those necessary under law. In light of point A, trusting them to neutrally administer point B can often feel "challenging" (to use the local lingo).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    There was a very odd post this morning about the Sun “popping champagne”.

    But they’ve fucked this up, haven’t they?

    One does hope so.

    I can't bear the smug Edwards, but the Sun's vile sting operation has been truly evil.
    I cannot help but feel that if these revelations were coming out about Andrew Neil, or Jacob Rees Mogg, or the Duke of York, the PB-ers currently clutching their pearls about 'mental health', 'vile sting operation' etc. would be singing a somewhat different tune.
    Not at all from me. I detest Edwards, but I despise the Sun.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411

    BBC now reporting on some complaints thet have received from staff.

    BBC Newsnight has also spoken to one current and one former BBC worker who said they’d received inappropriate messages from Edwards, some late at night and signed off with kisses.

    One said they felt it was an abuse of power by someone very senior in the organisation. Both workers who spoke to Newsnight, and the other employee, spoke of a reluctance among junior staff to complain to managers about the conduct of high-profile colleagues in case it adversely affected their careers.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-66159469

    Once it's all out it all comes out.

    Far too many institutions work by rewarding behaviours that reinforce the hierarchy and punishing those who do not.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411
    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Foxy said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    As a point of fact, is there any evidence this took place on OnlyFans?
    I'm inquiring specifically about Sean_F's bare-bones scenario where gross misconduct includes paying for porn in one's own time, to a person who turns out to be an addict. No, I don't know much at all about the details of the current controversy.
    You can make the argument that the law goes too far in allowing employers to dismiss people for actions outside of the workplace that they say will bring them into disrepute.

    However, it is the case that employment law allows them considerable latitude to do so.
    I know a very good and capable 35-year old guy, who had a good career in project management of complex systems integration in the rail industry totally destroyed - forever - because he took cocaine at a party with some friends on a Sunday night, and was randomly drugs tested at 9.30am the next morning (it happens to a random pool once a year) and he got unlucky and it was still in his system.

    It's not my cup of tea but I thought that was a bit harsh. The problem with zero tolerance is that it really is zero tolerance.
    For sure, that is harsh to my mind. But the intersection of lawbreaking outside the workplace, plus potential intoxication while working, gives them a starting point under law.
    Indeed, but I'd prefer three strikes and you're out - not zero tolerance. .
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Foxy said:

    I have never seen Die Hard.

    I basically saw no “action films” in the 80s because, well, I was a child, and my parents would let me watch them on VHS.

    And I never bothered to remedy that in the 90s.

    So I haven’t seen:

    Die Hard(s)
    Lethal Weapon(s)
    Alien(s)
    Predator(s)
    Terminator(s)
    Beverly Hills Cop
    or Rambos.

    I’ll get around to it some day.

    Neither Alien (sci-fi horror) nor Beverly Hills Cop (comedy) fit that category.

    Alien is excellent; BHC, amusing.
    Alien was late 70's wasn't it?

    I have never seen any of the Die Hards, nor Lethal Weapons, nor any Star Wars (apart from the original) nor any Star Trek (apart from the 1960's original), nor LoTR films, nor The Hobbit, nor any "Superhero" films.

    Action films are not really my cup of tea. I find special effects boring, and too often a substitute to cover up thin characterisation and plot.
    The first LoTR film is action-light, and as we get older, we can see worthwhile, almost self-contained reflections on the right way to approach mortality. (The other two are overweighted towards boring but large CGI fights.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638

    There was a very odd post this morning about the Sun “popping champagne”.

    But they’ve fucked this up, haven’t they?

    One does hope so.

    I can't bear the smug Edwards, but the Sun's vile sting operation has been truly evil.
    I cannot help but feel that if these revelations were coming out about Andrew Neil, or Jacob Rees Mogg, or the Duke of York, the PB-ers currently clutching their pearls about 'mental health', 'vile sting operation' etc. would be singing a somewhat different tune.
    I don't think an average 61 year old would be admitted to an inpatient psych unit either*. Access to such places of asylum are usually much harder to get.

    *perhaps if a serious attempt at suicide.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    -

    There was a very odd post this morning about the Sun “popping champagne”.

    But they’ve fucked this up, haven’t they?

    One does hope so.

    I can't bear the smug Edwards, but the Sun's vile sting operation has been truly evil.
    I cannot help but feel that if these revelations were coming out about Andrew Neil, or Jacob Rees Mogg, or the Duke of York, the PB-ers currently clutching their pearls about 'mental health', 'vile sting operation' etc. would be singing a somewhat different tune.
    Your feelings don’t count. Show us some evidence.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Foxy said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Unethical behaviour is not necessarily the same thing as illegal behaviour. I've been talking this over with my wife, who is an HR professional.

    Paying a drug addict, who is aged over 18, to provide sexually explict photos, on the part of somebody like a senior local government officer, would be considered an act of gross misconduct. The officer would be suspended, and in all likelihood be dismissed. He might well lose pension rights. He would not be getting away with the argument that "a good chap has the right to a private life." And, if some local rag reported the issue, attempts to blame the local rag would fall flat.

    Whether one hates The Sun or not, is immaterial. There is a public interest in reporting this story.

    Presumably "drug addict" is doing the work there, rather than making anyone who pays for OnlyFans eligible for loss of pension?
    It's the issue of bringing your employer into disrepute, if you're senior enough.

    About a decade ago, there was a guy who was Assistant Director of Housing at Hammersmith & Fulham. He had a Nazi fetish, and he liked posting pictures of himself online having sex with other Nazi fetishists. One of the tabloids reported the story to general mirth, but there was no question of the man keeping his job.
    Why?
    Given some of your posts, I’ve long suspected you of quite odd sexual fetishises, but I’d never dream that it ought to cost you your job.
    Fortunately, I'm self-employed. If I were a partner in a magic circle law firm, who did what is alleged here, I probably would be on my way out.
    Because partners are not employees with rights under law.

    Too many of your examples are irrelevant to the assertion that OnlyFans is grounds for summary dismissal. And, no, I wouldn't necessarily trust HR to know the law, especially when it protects the employee.
    As a point of fact, is there any evidence this took place on OnlyFans?
    I'm inquiring specifically about Sean_F's bare-bones scenario where gross misconduct includes paying for porn in one's own time, to a person who turns out to be an addict. No, I don't know much at all about the details of the current controversy.
    You can make the argument that the law goes too far in allowing employers to dismiss people for actions outside of the workplace that they say will bring them into disrepute.

    However, it is the case that employment law allows them considerable latitude to do so.
    I know a very good and capable 35-year old guy, who had a good career in project management of complex systems integration in the rail industry totally destroyed - forever - because he took cocaine at a party with some friends on a Sunday night, and was randomly drugs tested at 9.30am the next morning (it happens to a random pool once a year) and he got unlucky and it was still in his system.

    It's not my cup of tea but I thought that was a bit harsh. The problem with zero tolerance is that it really is zero tolerance.
    For sure, that is harsh to my mind. But the intersection of lawbreaking outside the workplace, plus potential intoxication while working, gives them a starting point under law.
    Indeed, but I'd prefer three strikes and you're out - not zero tolerance. .
    Would you like intoxicated whilst working to have three strikes in a school or hospital?
  • White Men Can't Jump
    Goodfellas
    Withnail And I
    The Blues Brothers
    Pulp Fiction
    The Commitments
    Dazed And Confused

    I think these are my favourite seven movies

    I know there are better made films with much better acting, but those are the ones I have enjoyed again and again as an adult

    Oh, and all the Monty Python films
This discussion has been closed.