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Starmer should do PMQs even when Sunak isn’t there – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790
    edited July 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're not going to win the 9% _back_, because they're didn't all start as Cons. Some were Nv, some LD NOTA, some Lab Brexiters. If there's no Reform candidate the best you'll probably do us a net of 2 or 3 per cent. But by all means carry on pinning your hopes on that.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869
    DougSeal said:

    There’s a slight Brexity whiff to this sudden interest in Dutch politics.

    There is a serious issue that us leftish EUophiles in the U.K. may well to have to face in the next half decade. There’s a strong possibility that a number of major EU countries are going to tack right (in some cases quite sharply) just as we are heading back to the centre left. That’s going to require a big change in the current narrative we’ve been putting out. As was always the danger as I think I’ve pointed out on here before.
    We aren't heading back to the centre left in the medium term. Davos policies are shredding the politicians who are implementing them, and Starmer is Davos man. Announcing the end of the UK oil industry outside Davos being the most recent loony example. How does the centre left come back from deliberately impoverishing its core constituency? You'll be discredited for decades.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    Sandpit said:

    Mercedes on slicks, Ferrari on inters.

    Take a guess which is the right tyre for the conditions?

    I'm going to make a wild lunge and go - full wets?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    Yes, the Conservatives could go all out to win the 9% RefUK are getting.

    That would probably leave the Conservatives on... 9%.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    DougSeal said:

    CatMan said:

    With the GO email thing and now BBC presenter story, a load of people on twitter are giving lawyers their Christmas bonuses.....people never leaen.

    Having had a look, I see the settled view is that it's probably Basil Brush
    Not Gordon the Gopher? He’s kept some suspect company in the past.
    Gordon the Groper, I heard.
  • DougSeal said:

    There’s a slight Brexity whiff to this sudden interest in Dutch politics.

    There is a serious issue that us leftish EUophiles in the U.K. may well to have to face in the next half decade. There’s a strong possibility that a number of major EU countries are going to tack right (in some cases quite sharply) just as we are heading back to the centre left. That’s going to require a big change in the current narrative we’ve been putting out. As was always the danger as I think I’ve pointed out on here before.
    We aren't heading back to the centre left in the medium term. Davos policies are shredding the politicians who are implementing them, and Starmer is Davos man. Announcing the end of the UK oil industry outside Davos being the most recent loony example. How does the centre left come back from deliberately impoverishing its core constituency? You'll be discredited for decades.
    FYI, the more you bang on about Davos, the more you come across as transparently bonkers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    Yes, the Conservatives could go all out to win the 9% RefUK are getting.

    That would probably leave the Conservatives on... 9%.
    No it wouldn't. The pensioner, Leave voting, home owning core vote is what is keeping them at 22%-25% and will still vote Tory regardless. It is the 9% now voting RefUK who can be won back with a harder line on immigration and some pre election tax cuts if they are to get back to the 30-35% they need to avoid near wipeout and at least get back to 150-200+ seats
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903
    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:

    Lest we forget (apologies to Percy Bysshe Shelley and Jeremy Corbyn)

    My name is Leonadamus, PBer of PBers;
    Look on my Wallet, ye Lowly, and rejoice!
    Everything inside remains. From the bustle
    Of Camden Road boundless but for ULEZ
    The Wack happy traveler wanders on beyond

    Can you let me know what you’re smoking sometime?
    That was Coleridge.
    Opium, then.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    Why telegraph (no pun intended) this stuff in advance giving SKS time to prepare? I think Starmer’s massively underrated as a politician, especially on here, inexplicably so. From DavidL to BJO the consensus is he’s boring and crap, but yet…
    He is boring but it doesn't matter as much as many think it should. We are at the end of 13 years of Tory rule, much of which has been chaotic and difficult. It is time for a change and SKS is not scary like Corbyn. He doesn't need to do anything to win and he knows it. In fact doing things is dangerous because it upsets and disappoints people. Plenty of time to do that when in Number 10. Meantime he is smart enough to just watch the clock tick down.
    Besides, Make Britain Boring Again is probably an attractive vision for the next government.

    We don't want to go on a bear hunt any more.
    Boring is not going to be an option. We have a series of tough and long avoided choices ahead of us. We live in interesting times.
    Who do you have confidence in to actually tackle any of them, for me the answer is none of the above. When things finally go bang which they will I don't see democracy surviving the explosion as I don't see anyone voting for a party espousing any of the necessary measures. So if they can't get elected and the country can't go on as it is where do we go from there?
    Democracy is the worst system of government.

    Apart from all the others that have ever been tried.

    When things go boom, the country has a way of muddling through. Middling through isn't the best option, and it'd be better to see an aspirational government elected with a vision to improve things, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

    But as disappointing as merely muddling through is, it's categorically better than any non democratic alternatives.
    And what happens when no one can get elected standing on a platform that would address any of the issues? That is where I think we are heading sadly. I don't want to lose democracy I am however losing faith that we will ever have a democratically elected government that can address the issues and still get elected. If there were a party out there with actual solutions other than paper over the cracks and try and keep things running till the next election and they were getting a decent vote share then you might have a point.

    Instead we are going to continue with pretend we aren't in the shit as things deteriorate until we get to the point of no return
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    The (compelling!) logic of this December 2019 article suggests that even if Biden is not going to run again, he’d say for now that he’s running. I figure early October for the big one-term reveal.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1677655505882292225
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869

    DougSeal said:

    There’s a slight Brexity whiff to this sudden interest in Dutch politics.

    There is a serious issue that us leftish EUophiles in the U.K. may well to have to face in the next half decade. There’s a strong possibility that a number of major EU countries are going to tack right (in some cases quite sharply) just as we are heading back to the centre left. That’s going to require a big change in the current narrative we’ve been putting out. As was always the danger as I think I’ve pointed out on here before.
    We aren't heading back to the centre left in the medium term. Davos policies are shredding the politicians who are implementing them, and Starmer is Davos man. Announcing the end of the UK oil industry outside Davos being the most recent loony example. How does the centre left come back from deliberately impoverishing its core constituency? You'll be discredited for decades.
    FYI, the more you bang on about Davos, the more you come across as transparently bonkers.
    The World Economic Forum is a public and highly influential pressure group. I think their programme is hugely relevant to what's happening in politics at the moment. I really couldn't give the tiniest of shits what you think about that, or me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    DougSeal said:

    CatMan said:

    With the GO email thing and now BBC presenter story, a load of people on twitter are giving lawyers their Christmas bonuses.....people never leaen.

    Having had a look, I see the settled view is that it's probably Basil Brush
    Not Gordon the Gopher? He’s kept some suspect company in the past.
    Gordon the Groper, I heard.
    Do it be silly. He was the one* who had to deal with Schofield's hand up his arse.

    *well, it seems one of the many.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    More HYUFD (should that be HYD-FU) big tent politics....you sound more and more like the nutty Corbynistas every day, only interested in true believers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    More HYUFD (should that be HYD-FU) big tent politics....you sound more and more like the nutty Corbynistas every day, only interested in true believers.
    Corbyn got 39% and 262 MPs in 2017 and even in 2019 got 32% and 202 MPs.

    Rishi would kill for numbers like that at that moment. If you have already lost centrist swing voters (and the Tories have almost certainly lost them for the next election at least) then you need to shore up your core vote or you will be near wiped out.

    Corbyn at least got his core vote out even if he lost swing voters, Sunak and Hunt are now in danger of losing both. Swing voters to Labour and the LDs, core vote to stay home or RefUK
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    Rather than Starmer taking over PMQs, it might be better to prime Angela Rayner to draw attention to Sunak's absenteeism.

    For shits and giggles, he should put up Burgon. Or Russell-Moyle.

    And when asked why, say he wanted an MP on Dowden's intellectual and moral level to make it a fair contest.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,820
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    The Reform vote is not racist though, just conservative (unlike the actual conservative party governing)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    stodge said:

    DougSeal said:

    There’s a slight Brexity whiff to this sudden interest in Dutch politics.

    There is a serious issue that us leftish EUophiles in the U.K. may well to have to face in the next half decade. There’s a strong possibility that a number of major EU countries are going to tack right (in some cases quite sharply) just as we are heading back to the centre left. That’s going to require a big change in the current narrative we’ve been putting out. As was always the danger as I think I’ve pointed out on here before.
    Again terms like "left" and "right" are thrown round like confetti. I'm far from convinced a lot of the anti-EU populists are "right" - indeed, read some of their policies and they are strong supporters of State intervention and polcies some might call socialist.

    They may hate the traditional centre-left and social democrat politics but that's not because they are fans of a "small state", far from it, their belief is the state can and should do more.
    The entire lest and right thing needs a new language and configuration. There are too many types of axis (is that's the word) differentiating views. I shall try to make a suggestion sometime.

    Meanwhile, this is politics now:

    The problem with socialism is that in the end you run out of other people's money.

    Then problem with globalised capitalism is that in the end you run out of other people's money. (Banks)

    The problem with state intervening and regulated social democracy is that in the end you run out of other people's money. (Water).



  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    "This country isn't racist"
    vs
    "I'm desperately afraid of being outnumbered by Black people"

    These two views can, apparently, coexist in one mind.

    If an Afghan said “I’m not racist but I’d rather my country didn’t become majority white and Christian, unless the Afghan people approve of it in a vote” you wouldn’t accuse them of hypocrisy. Yet for white British people it is unacceptable to say this?

    Lefties are ridiculous twats, part 297
    I wouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy, I'd accuse them of having a racially discriminatory attitude to whom they want as having their neighbours.

    I mean, even the word "accuse" is a bit unnecessary because it's exactly what "they" would be saying.

    I really don't understand what would motivate someone to be so concerned about ensuring the majority of people around them have the same colour skin. Still, I guess it's probably not because they're racist, it must be for some other reasons 🤷
    There is a good rule of thumb in life which is "ignore everything before the but".

    Anyone who says "I'm not racist but *racist thing here*" has demonstrated that they quite clearly are racist.
    What you are saying here is correct but it's correct
    There is a huge difference between not wanting a neighbour of a different colour and objecting to immigration changing the face of the country for example to switching from majority christian to majority muslim. Your view seems to be that people should get no say on the latter.

    The first is racist, the second in my view is not
    You know, it's almost a daily occurrence that you tell me what my "view" seems to be, and you are consistently wrong.

    My own view on religion is that everybody should give it up because it's silly. But I'm not going to vote for a party that discriminates between potential migrants on the basis of their religion. I don't see the role of government as being one that engineers the country to be more like me in a racial or religious way.

    Other people are at completely liberty to vote to "keep" the UK "white", and I'm at liberty to suggest that such a racially motivated action is, well, racially motivated.

    Just to go back to the first point, you're continued misinterpretation of what I'm saying. Can I gently suggest you take the time to read my posts for their content and not to harvest the obviously fertile meadows of your imagination for what I think. I wouldn't mind so much if you weren't so routinely wrong.
    See you say I am misinterpreting you then say exactly what I claimed you said. The government and people of a country should get no say on who comes in

    Sean_F said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    "This country isn't racist"
    vs
    "I'm desperately afraid of being outnumbered by Black people"

    These two views can, apparently, coexist in one mind.

    If an Afghan said “I’m not racist but I’d rather my country didn’t become majority white and Christian, unless the Afghan people approve of it in a vote” you wouldn’t accuse them of hypocrisy. Yet for white British people it is unacceptable to say this?

    Lefties are ridiculous twats, part 297
    I wouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy, I'd accuse them of having a racially discriminatory attitude to whom they want as having their neighbours.

    I mean, even the word "accuse" is a bit unnecessary because it's exactly what "they" would be saying.

    I really don't understand what would motivate someone to be so concerned about ensuring the majority of people around them have the same colour skin. Still, I guess it's probably not because they're racist, it must be for some other reasons 🤷
    Changes in demography often (not always) mean changes in the balance of political and/or religious power.

    A devoutly Muslim Afghan would have every reason to fear that an influx of white people would mean that Afghanistan would cease to be a devoutly Muslim country.

    In other parts of the world, growth in the size of a minority group may lead the current majority group to fear that they will cease to be the dominant political group.

    You may not agree with that outlook, but there is nothing irrational about it.
    True but with christianity on the decline we aren't clear what values or culture we are trying to protect. The conclusion at that point is that t must be about race.
    Who is “we” here?
    It is maintaining the uk as a secular liberal state. That is the culture most want protected.
    Listen you thick twat. If you vote BNP and I call you racist. That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't have the vote. It just means I think you're racist. Clear? Now fuck off.
    Your argument is so shit you have to resort to offence. The people of a country have every right to vote against letting in those that would change their culture. You would be the first to complain if homosexuality got made illegal once again. Voting not to take immigrants that think like that whether they are white/brown/green with yellow spots is not racist, So take your own advice and fuck off. Your view that we shouldn't be allowed to protect a secular liberal state is so far from mainstream it is untrue.
    You are desperately, tragically stupid.

    You are yet again arguing against something you imagined. You do it every time because you are as thick as a jar of peanut butter that's been left open in the sun.

    I don't want to take away your vote. I just want you to acknowledge that a policy that is explicitly and openly racist is racist. It's really that simple.

    Anyone who wants to restrict immigration of Black people because they want to keep Britain white is advocating a policy of discrimination based on the racial properties of the potential immigrants.

    That's it. It's perfectly simple. Racism is racism.

    Black people aren't going to oppress White people if and when they are more numerous than White people in this country. That's because most people just aren't racist. Black people are just as good, bad, smart, stupid, nice, nasty as White people. If you imagine a random Black person and shudder in fear at the idea of them being in charge then... well. You know.
    a) I never claimed you were trying to stop me voting. What I said is you didn't think people should be able to vote against immigration which you absolutely did. I quote you "I don't see the role of government as being one that engineers the country to be more like me in a racial or religious way". How else is anyone meant to interpret that than people should not be able to vote against some types of immigration?

    b) I never claimed it was to keep black people out I clearly stated it was about keeping a plurality that wanted to keep the culture of a liberal secular state. Now a lot of people that don't value a liberal secular state are indeed black/brown or of certain faiths. That however does not mean you are voting to keep them out because of their faith or colour but rather because they don't support liberal secularism. As I pointed out I would also oppose a load of westboro baptists or the fundamentalist wing of the republican party etc. It is only incidentally about race or religion because people that don't value liberal secularism often come from those demographics.

    We have already seen liberal secularism being rolled back in the USA and that is mostly to do with republican fundamentalists. I just don't want those that view a liberal secular state as a bug not a feature to become a majority and get their views pandered too. They don't even need a majority before politicians start listening to those views either.

    The problem isn't a race or religion the problem is the view that liberal secularism needs to be overturned.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035
    P45 for Sergio Perez.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    Sandpit said:

    P45 for Sergio Perez.

    Who do you think they'll replace him with?

    Being team mate to Verstappen must be like being bitch to Schumacher only a hundred times worse.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    "This country isn't racist"
    vs
    "I'm desperately afraid of being outnumbered by Black people"

    These two views can, apparently, coexist in one mind.

    If an Afghan said “I’m not racist but I’d rather my country didn’t become majority white and Christian, unless the Afghan people approve of it in a vote” you wouldn’t accuse them of hypocrisy. Yet for white British people it is unacceptable to say this?

    Lefties are ridiculous twats, part 297
    I wouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy, I'd accuse them of having a racially discriminatory attitude to whom they want as having their neighbours.

    I mean, even the word "accuse" is a bit unnecessary because it's exactly what "they" would be saying.

    I really don't understand what would motivate someone to be so concerned about ensuring the majority of people around them have the same colour skin. Still, I guess it's probably not because they're racist, it must be for some other reasons 🤷
    There is a good rule of thumb in life which is "ignore everything before the but".

    Anyone who says "I'm not racist but *racist thing here*" has demonstrated that they quite clearly are racist.
    What you are saying here is correct but it's correct
    There is a huge difference between not wanting a neighbour of a different colour and objecting to immigration changing the face of the country for example to switching from majority christian to majority muslim. Your view seems to be that people should get no say on the latter.

    The first is racist, the second in my view is not
    You know, it's almost a daily occurrence that you tell me what my "view" seems to be, and you are consistently wrong.

    My own view on religion is that everybody should give it up because it's silly. But I'm not going to vote for a party that discriminates between potential migrants on the basis of their religion. I don't see the role of government as being one that engineers the country to be more like me in a racial or religious way.

    Other people are at completely liberty to vote to "keep" the UK "white", and I'm at liberty to suggest that such a racially motivated action is, well, racially motivated.

    Just to go back to the first point, you're continued misinterpretation of what I'm saying. Can I gently suggest you take the time to read my posts for their content and not to harvest the obviously fertile meadows of your imagination for what I think. I wouldn't mind so much if you weren't so routinely wrong.
    See you say I am misinterpreting you then say exactly what I claimed you said. The government and people of a country should get no say on who comes in

    Sean_F said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    "This country isn't racist"
    vs
    "I'm desperately afraid of being outnumbered by Black people"

    These two views can, apparently, coexist in one mind.

    If an Afghan said “I’m not racist but I’d rather my country didn’t become majority white and Christian, unless the Afghan people approve of it in a vote” you wouldn’t accuse them of hypocrisy. Yet for white British people it is unacceptable to say this?

    Lefties are ridiculous twats, part 297
    I wouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy, I'd accuse them of having a racially discriminatory attitude to whom they want as having their neighbours.

    I mean, even the word "accuse" is a bit unnecessary because it's exactly what "they" would be saying.

    I really don't understand what would motivate someone to be so concerned about ensuring the majority of people around them have the same colour skin. Still, I guess it's probably not because they're racist, it must be for some other reasons 🤷
    Changes in demography often (not always) mean changes in the balance of political and/or religious power.

    A devoutly Muslim Afghan would have every reason to fear that an influx of white people would mean that Afghanistan would cease to be a devoutly Muslim country.

    In other parts of the world, growth in the size of a minority group may lead the current majority group to fear that they will cease to be the dominant political group.

    You may not agree with that outlook, but there is nothing irrational about it.
    True but with christianity on the decline we aren't clear what values or culture we are trying to protect. The conclusion at that point is that t must be about race.
    Who is “we” here?
    It is maintaining the uk as a secular liberal state. That is the culture most want protected.
    Listen you thick twat. If you vote BNP and I call you racist. That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't have the vote. It just means I think you're racist. Clear? Now fuck off.
    Your argument is so shit you have to resort to offence. The people of a country have every right to vote against letting in those that would change their culture. You would be the first to complain if homosexuality got made illegal once again. Voting not to take immigrants that think like that whether they are white/brown/green with yellow spots is not racist, So take your own advice and fuck off. Your view that we shouldn't be allowed to protect a secular liberal state is so far from mainstream it is untrue.
    You are desperately, tragically stupid.

    You are yet again arguing against something you imagined. You do it every time because you are as thick as a jar of peanut butter that's been left open in the sun.

    I don't want to take away your vote. I just want you to acknowledge that a policy that is explicitly and openly racist is racist. It's really that simple.

    Anyone who wants to restrict immigration of Black people because they want to keep Britain white is advocating a policy of discrimination based on the racial properties of the potential immigrants.

    That's it. It's perfectly simple. Racism is racism.

    Black people aren't going to oppress White people if and when they are more numerous than White people in this country. That's because most people just aren't racist. Black people are just as good, bad, smart, stupid, nice, nasty as White people. If you imagine a random Black person and shudder in fear at the idea of them being in charge then... well. You know.
    a) I never claimed you were trying to stop me voting. What I said is you didn't think people should be able to vote against immigration which you absolutely did. I quote you "I don't see the role of government as being one that engineers the country to be more like me in a racial or religious way". How else is anyone meant to interpret that than people should not be able to vote against some types of immigration?

    b) I never claimed it was to keep black people out I clearly stated it was about keeping a plurality that wanted to keep the culture of a liberal secular state. Now a lot of people that don't value a liberal secular state are indeed black/brown or of certain faiths. That however does not mean you are voting to keep them out because of their faith or colour but rather because they don't support liberal secularism. As I pointed out I would also oppose a load of westboro baptists or the fundamentalist wing of the republican party etc. It is only incidentally about race or religion because people that don't value liberal secularism often come from those demographics.

    We have already seen liberal secularism being rolled back in the USA and that is mostly to do with republican fundamentalists. I just don't want those that view a liberal secular state as a bug not a feature to become a majority and get their views pandered too. They don't even need a majority before politicians start listening to those views either.

    The problem isn't a race or religion the problem is the view that liberal secularism needs to be overturned.

    But as the USA and the New Conservative thing earlier this week showed, it's perfectly possible for indigenous people to threaten liberal secularism. Ultimately, our best defence is a non-fiddled democracy (which rules out the USA to an alarming degree) and effort by the population.

    It might be amusing and satisfying to deport Miriam Cates, but it wouldn't be right.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    Think SCOTUS has been making dramatic changes?

    Next yr offers the prospect of gutting the CFPB & the SEC; curbing all fedl regulation by overturning Chevron deference; & preventing taxing billionaires.

    *This* is what the big money donors really want.

    https://twitter.com/eisingerj/status/1677652367041343490
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,067

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're not going to win the 9% _back_, because they're didn't all start as Cons. Some were Nv, some LD NOTA, some Lab Brexiters. If there's no Reform candidate the best you'll probably do us a net of 2 or 3 per cent. But by all means carry on pinning your hopes on that.
    Sadly, many more than 9% of the population are racist. They don’t all vote for Reform. There are plenty of racists in the Conservatives, Labour, SNP, DUP and probably some in most other parties.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    Why telegraph (no pun intended) this stuff in advance giving SKS time to prepare? I think Starmer’s massively underrated as a politician, especially on here, inexplicably so. From DavidL to BJO the consensus is he’s boring and crap, but yet…
    He is boring but it doesn't matter as much as many think it should. We are at the end of 13 years of Tory rule, much of which has been chaotic and difficult. It is time for a change and SKS is not scary like Corbyn. He doesn't need to do anything to win and he knows it. In fact doing things is dangerous because it upsets and disappoints people. Plenty of time to do that when in Number 10. Meantime he is smart enough to just watch the clock tick down.
    Besides, Make Britain Boring Again is probably an attractive vision for the next government.

    We don't want to go on a bear hunt any more.
    Boring is not going to be an option. We have a series of tough and long avoided choices ahead of us. We live in interesting times.
    Who do you have confidence in to actually tackle any of them, for me the answer is none of the above. When things finally go bang which they will I don't see democracy surviving the explosion as I don't see anyone voting for a party espousing any of the necessary measures. So if they can't get elected and the country can't go on as it is where do we go from there?
    Democracy is the worst system of government.

    Apart from all the others that have ever been tried.

    When things go boom, the country has a way of muddling through. Middling through isn't the best option, and it'd be better to see an aspirational government elected with a vision to improve things, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

    But as disappointing as merely muddling through is, it's categorically better than any non democratic alternatives.
    And what happens when no one can get elected standing on a platform that would address any of the issues? That is where I think we are heading sadly. I don't want to lose democracy I am however losing faith that we will ever have a democratically elected government that can address the issues and still get elected. If there were a party out there with actual solutions other than paper over the cracks and try and keep things running till the next election and they were getting a decent vote share then you might have a point.

    Instead we are going to continue with pretend we aren't in the shit as things deteriorate until we get to the point of no return
    The duly elected government and Parliament have to handle the issues of the day, whether they were elected to do so or not.

    The Tories weren't elected to deal with COVID in 2019, but they still had to do so.

    The public has found a way to elect the governments that will deal with whatever it is that needs dealing with, in the past.

    2019 electing a government to end the Brexit psychodrama that had dominated past few years.
    2010 electing a government to clean up Browns mess.
    1997 electing a government to move on from the Tory divisions and problems of the 90s
    1979/83/87 transforming the country as needed.

    The issues the public needs dealing with evolve over time, but that's another bonus of democracy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    "This country isn't racist"
    vs
    "I'm desperately afraid of being outnumbered by Black people"

    These two views can, apparently, coexist in one mind.

    If an Afghan said “I’m not racist but I’d rather my country didn’t become majority white and Christian, unless the Afghan people approve of it in a vote” you wouldn’t accuse them of hypocrisy. Yet for white British people it is unacceptable to say this?

    Lefties are ridiculous twats, part 297
    I wouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy, I'd accuse them of having a racially discriminatory attitude to whom they want as having their neighbours.

    I mean, even the word "accuse" is a bit unnecessary because it's exactly what "they" would be saying.

    I really don't understand what would motivate someone to be so concerned about ensuring the majority of people around them have the same colour skin. Still, I guess it's probably not because they're racist, it must be for some other reasons 🤷
    There is a good rule of thumb in life which is "ignore everything before the but".

    Anyone who says "I'm not racist but *racist thing here*" has demonstrated that they quite clearly are racist.
    What you are saying here is correct but it's correct
    There is a huge difference between not wanting a neighbour of a different colour and objecting to immigration changing the face of the country for example to switching from majority christian to majority muslim. Your view seems to be that people should get no say on the latter.

    The first is racist, the second in my view is not
    You know, it's almost a daily occurrence that you tell me what my "view" seems to be, and you are consistently wrong.

    My own view on religion is that everybody should give it up because it's silly. But I'm not going to vote for a party that discriminates between potential migrants on the basis of their religion. I don't see the role of government as being one that engineers the country to be more like me in a racial or religious way.

    Other people are at completely liberty to vote to "keep" the UK "white", and I'm at liberty to suggest that such a racially motivated action is, well, racially motivated.

    Just to go back to the first point, you're continued misinterpretation of what I'm saying. Can I gently suggest you take the time to read my posts for their content and not to harvest the obviously fertile meadows of your imagination for what I think. I wouldn't mind so much if you weren't so routinely wrong.
    See you say I am misinterpreting you then say exactly what I claimed you said. The government and people of a country should get no say on who comes in

    Sean_F said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    "This country isn't racist"
    vs
    "I'm desperately afraid of being outnumbered by Black people"

    These two views can, apparently, coexist in one mind.

    If an Afghan said “I’m not racist but I’d rather my country didn’t become majority white and Christian, unless the Afghan people approve of it in a vote” you wouldn’t accuse them of hypocrisy. Yet for white British people it is unacceptable to say this?

    Lefties are ridiculous twats, part 297
    I wouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy, I'd accuse them of having a racially discriminatory attitude to whom they want as having their neighbours.

    I mean, even the word "accuse" is a bit unnecessary because it's exactly what "they" would be saying.

    I really don't understand what would motivate someone to be so concerned about ensuring the majority of people around them have the same colour skin. Still, I guess it's probably not because they're racist, it must be for some other reasons 🤷
    Changes in demography often (not always) mean changes in the balance of political and/or religious power.

    A devoutly Muslim Afghan would have every reason to fear that an influx of white people would mean that Afghanistan would cease to be a devoutly Muslim country.

    In other parts of the world, growth in the size of a minority group may lead the current majority group to fear that they will cease to be the dominant political group.

    You may not agree with that outlook, but there is nothing irrational about it.
    True but with christianity on the decline we aren't clear what values or culture we are trying to protect. The conclusion at that point is that t must be about race.
    Who is “we” here?
    It is maintaining the uk as a secular liberal state. That is the culture most want protected.
    Listen you thick twat. If you vote BNP and I call you racist. That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't have the vote. It just means I think you're racist. Clear? Now fuck off.
    Your argument is so shit you have to resort to offence. The people of a country have every right to vote against letting in those that would change their culture. You would be the first to complain if homosexuality got made illegal once again. Voting not to take immigrants that think like that whether they are white/brown/green with yellow spots is not racist, So take your own advice and fuck off. Your view that we shouldn't be allowed to protect a secular liberal state is so far from mainstream it is untrue.
    You are desperately, tragically stupid.

    You are yet again arguing against something you imagined. You do it every time because you are as thick as a jar of peanut butter that's been left open in the sun.

    I don't want to take away your vote. I just want you to acknowledge that a policy that is explicitly and openly racist is racist. It's really that simple.

    Anyone who wants to restrict immigration of Black people because they want to keep Britain white is advocating a policy of discrimination based on the racial properties of the potential immigrants.

    That's it. It's perfectly simple. Racism is racism.

    Black people aren't going to oppress White people if and when they are more numerous than White people in this country. That's because most people just aren't racist. Black people are just as good, bad, smart, stupid, nice, nasty as White people. If you imagine a random Black person and shudder in fear at the idea of them being in charge then... well. You know.
    a) I never claimed you were trying to stop me voting. What I said is you didn't think people should be able to vote against immigration which you absolutely did. I quote you "I don't see the role of government as being one that engineers the country to be more like me in a racial or religious way". How else is anyone meant to interpret that than people should not be able to vote against some types of immigration?

    b) I never claimed it was to keep black people out I clearly stated it was about keeping a plurality that wanted to keep the culture of a liberal secular state. Now a lot of people that don't value a liberal secular state are indeed black/brown or of certain faiths. That however does not mean you are voting to keep them out because of their faith or colour but rather because they don't support liberal secularism. As I pointed out I would also oppose a load of westboro baptists or the fundamentalist wing of the republican party etc. It is only incidentally about race or religion because people that don't value liberal secularism often come from those demographics.

    We have already seen liberal secularism being rolled back in the USA and that is mostly to do with republican fundamentalists. I just don't want those that view a liberal secular state as a bug not a feature to become a majority and get their views pandered too. They don't even need a majority before politicians start listening to those views either.

    The problem isn't a race or religion the problem is the view that liberal secularism needs to be overturned.

    But as the USA and the New Conservative thing earlier this week showed, it's perfectly possible for indigenous people to threaten liberal secularism. Ultimately, our best defence is a non-fiddled democracy (which rules out the USA to an alarming degree) and effort by the population.

    It might be amusing and satisfying to deport Miriam Cates, but it wouldn't be right.
    Meloni and Trump were elected and certainly not liberal secularists, as was Modi as was Putin as was the governments of Uganda and Indonesia and Poland. Also a million miles from liberal secularism.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    "This country isn't racist"
    vs
    "I'm desperately afraid of being outnumbered by Black people"

    These two views can, apparently, coexist in one mind.

    If an Afghan said “I’m not racist but I’d rather my country didn’t become majority white and Christian, unless the Afghan people approve of it in a vote” you wouldn’t accuse them of hypocrisy. Yet for white British people it is unacceptable to say this?

    Lefties are ridiculous twats, part 297
    I wouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy, I'd accuse them of having a racially discriminatory attitude to whom they want as having their neighbours.

    I mean, even the word "accuse" is a bit unnecessary because it's exactly what "they" would be saying.

    I really don't understand what would motivate someone to be so concerned about ensuring the majority of people around them have the same colour skin. Still, I guess it's probably not because they're racist, it must be for some other reasons 🤷
    There is a good rule of thumb in life which is "ignore everything before the but".

    Anyone who says "I'm not racist but *racist thing here*" has demonstrated that they quite clearly are racist.
    What you are saying here is correct but it's correct
    There is a huge difference between not wanting a neighbour of a different colour and objecting to immigration changing the face of the country for example to switching from majority christian to majority muslim. Your view seems to be that people should get no say on the latter.

    The first is racist, the second in my view is not
    You know, it's almost a daily occurrence that you tell me what my "view" seems to be, and you are consistently wrong.

    My own view on religion is that everybody should give it up because it's silly. But I'm not going to vote for a party that discriminates between potential migrants on the basis of their religion. I don't see the role of government as being one that engineers the country to be more like me in a racial or religious way.

    Other people are at completely liberty to vote to "keep" the UK "white", and I'm at liberty to suggest that such a racially motivated action is, well, racially motivated.

    Just to go back to the first point, you're continued misinterpretation of what I'm saying. Can I gently suggest you take the time to read my posts for their content and not to harvest the obviously fertile meadows of your imagination for what I think. I wouldn't mind so much if you weren't so routinely wrong.
    See you say I am misinterpreting you then say exactly what I claimed you said. The government and people of a country should get no say on who comes in

    Sean_F said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    "This country isn't racist"
    vs
    "I'm desperately afraid of being outnumbered by Black people"

    These two views can, apparently, coexist in one mind.

    If an Afghan said “I’m not racist but I’d rather my country didn’t become majority white and Christian, unless the Afghan people approve of it in a vote” you wouldn’t accuse them of hypocrisy. Yet for white British people it is unacceptable to say this?

    Lefties are ridiculous twats, part 297
    I wouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy, I'd accuse them of having a racially discriminatory attitude to whom they want as having their neighbours.

    I mean, even the word "accuse" is a bit unnecessary because it's exactly what "they" would be saying.

    I really don't understand what would motivate someone to be so concerned about ensuring the majority of people around them have the same colour skin. Still, I guess it's probably not because they're racist, it must be for some other reasons 🤷
    Changes in demography often (not always) mean changes in the balance of political and/or religious power.

    A devoutly Muslim Afghan would have every reason to fear that an influx of white people would mean that Afghanistan would cease to be a devoutly Muslim country.

    In other parts of the world, growth in the size of a minority group may lead the current majority group to fear that they will cease to be the dominant political group.

    You may not agree with that outlook, but there is nothing irrational about it.
    True but with christianity on the decline we aren't clear what values or culture we are trying to protect. The conclusion at that point is that t must be about race.
    Who is “we” here?
    It is maintaining the uk as a secular liberal state. That is the culture most want protected.
    Listen you thick twat. If you vote BNP and I call you racist. That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't have the vote. It just means I think you're racist. Clear? Now fuck off.
    Your argument is so shit you have to resort to offence. The people of a country have every right to vote against letting in those that would change their culture. You would be the first to complain if homosexuality got made illegal once again. Voting not to take immigrants that think like that whether they are white/brown/green with yellow spots is not racist, So take your own advice and fuck off. Your view that we shouldn't be allowed to protect a secular liberal state is so far from mainstream it is untrue.
    You are desperately, tragically stupid.

    You are yet again arguing against something you imagined. You do it every time because you are as thick as a jar of peanut butter that's been left open in the sun.

    I don't want to take away your vote. I just want you to acknowledge that a policy that is explicitly and openly racist is racist. It's really that simple.

    Anyone who wants to restrict immigration of Black people because they want to keep Britain white is advocating a policy of discrimination based on the racial properties of the potential immigrants.

    That's it. It's perfectly simple. Racism is racism.

    Black people aren't going to oppress White people if and when they are more numerous than White people in this country. That's because most people just aren't racist. Black people are just as good, bad, smart, stupid, nice, nasty as White people. If you imagine a random Black person and shudder in fear at the idea of them being in charge then... well. You know.
    a) I never claimed you were trying to stop me voting. What I said is you didn't think people should be able to vote against immigration which you absolutely did. I quote you "I don't see the role of government as being one that engineers the country to be more like me in a racial or religious way". How else is anyone meant to interpret that than people should not be able to vote against some types of immigration?

    b) I never claimed it was to keep black people out I clearly stated it was about keeping a plurality that wanted to keep the culture of a liberal secular state. Now a lot of people that don't value a liberal secular state are indeed black/brown or of certain faiths. That however does not mean you are voting to keep them out because of their faith or colour but rather because they don't support liberal secularism. As I pointed out I would also oppose a load of westboro baptists or the fundamentalist wing of the republican party etc. It is only incidentally about race or religion because people that don't value liberal secularism often come from those demographics.

    We have already seen liberal secularism being rolled back in the USA and that is mostly to do with republican fundamentalists. I just don't want those that view a liberal secular state as a bug not a feature to become a majority and get their views pandered too. They don't even need a majority before politicians start listening to those views either.

    The problem isn't a race or religion the problem is the view that liberal secularism needs to be overturned.

    But as the USA and the New Conservative thing earlier this week showed, it's perfectly possible for indigenous people to threaten liberal secularism. Ultimately, our best defence is a non-fiddled democracy (which rules out the USA to an alarming degree) and effort by the population.

    It might be amusing and satisfying to deport Miriam Cates, but it wouldn't be right.
    Yes indigenous people that believe that way need to be called out and ridiculed too, however adding to the numbers by bringing in people from area's that don't have a liberal secularist state is not going to help it will only swell the numbers.

    Now if you say not all people from for example Pakistan have attitudes that do not fit a liberal secular state....that is true. If we could invent a test for it all the better and we could just reject those of whatever colour or religion that would be great.

    However I cite this from the guardian
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

    Taken only a few years back and the sample will include many british born and raised. I find many of the findings disturbing. I also freely admit you will find similar views if you interviewed many other faith based groupings and also american republicans. I just don't want to see happening here what is happening in America so we need to be choosy who we take.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656

    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    The (compelling!) logic of this December 2019 article suggests that even if Biden is not going to run again, he’d say for now that he’s running. I figure early October for the big one-term reveal.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1677655505882292225

    If true, then good news for Newsom.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023
    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Look centrists swing, they vote for the winning party and we are clearly at a moment where they are fed up of this government, fed up of the economic situation, want a change and ain't coming back before the next election.

    So if you have already lost centrists you need to shore up your core vote. If you don't, you get near wiped out. It is as simple as that.

    In 1997 of course John Major ran a pretty centre right government, he still led the Tories to their lowest voteshare since 1832 and their lowest number of MPs since 1906 with more 1992 Tory voters staying home than switched to New Labour or the LDs and almost a million voting Referendum Party or UKIP.

    Sunak is currently facing an even worse defeat than Major 1997 and going down in history as the worst Tory leader at a general election ever, even worse than Wellington 1832 (and at least the Iron Duke won Waterloo and saved us from Napoleon).

    Yes he is better than Truss but she would have seen the party wiped out, so that is not much to write home about
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    edited July 2023
    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    I am about to experience Amtrak. I shall report and extrapolate all sorts of hot takes about the USA when I reach New Haven.

    Lovely. It is horribly humid up there?
    Humid by English standards but not by New England standards if you know what I mean. I’m in Boston at the moment though, lots of thunderstorms forecast for CT
    I’ve never been to New Haven.
    I would like to visit the Museum of British Art.

    Yale now publishes the Pevsners and a lot of great epigraphs on British art and architecture.
    For what it's worth, Yale University Press also published "The Vinland Map and the Tartar Relations'' (1965) one of THE great con-jobs of modern times.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland_Map

    (Yours truly has a treasured copy.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035
    Grr, DRS enabled for Q3. MV on pole by half a second.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Look centrists swing, they vote for the winning party and we are clearly at a moment where they are fed up of this government, fed up of the economic situation, want a change and ain't coming back before the next election.

    So if you have already lost centrists you need to shore up your core vote. If you don't, you get near wiped out. It is as simple as that.

    In 1997 of course John Major ran a pretty centre right government, he still led the Tories to their lowest voteshare since 1832 and their lowest number of MPs since 1906 with more 1992 Tory voters staying home than switched to New Labour or the LDs and almost a million voting Referendum Party or UKIP.

    Sunak is currently facing an even worse defeat than Major 1997 and going down in history as the worst Tory leader at a general election ever, even worse than Wellington 1832 (and at least the Iron Duke won Waterloo and saved us from Napoleon).

    Yes he is better than Truss but she would have seen the party wiped out, so that is not much to write home about
    You cannot say it can you

    Sunak is a million miles better than your hero toxic Johnson who is first and foremost the architect of today's chaos

    You believe in confession - go on, you can do this
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    rcs1000 said:

    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    The (compelling!) logic of this December 2019 article suggests that even if Biden is not going to run again, he’d say for now that he’s running. I figure early October for the big one-term reveal.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1677655505882292225

    If true, then good news for Newsom.
    Buttigieg is really raising his profile at the moment. And, of course, he has a cracking job for paying out the pork. I only see snippets of US media but from the bits I see he is a completely different class as a debater or interviewee.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Look centrists swing, they vote for the winning party and we are clearly at a moment where they are fed up of this government, fed up of the economic situation, want a change and ain't coming back before the next election.

    So if you have already lost centrists you need to shore up your core vote. If you don't, you get near wiped out. It is as simple as that.

    In 1997 of course John Major ran a pretty centre right government, he still led the Tories to their lowest voteshare since 1832 and their lowest number of MPs since 1906 with more 1992 Tory voters staying home than switched to New Labour or the LDs and almost a million voting Referendum Party or UKIP.

    Sunak is currently facing an even worse defeat than Major 1997 and going down in history as the worst Tory leader at a general election ever, even worse than Wellington 1832 (and at least the Iron Duke won Waterloo and saved us from Napoleon).

    Yes he is better than Truss but she would have seen the party wiped out, so that is not much to write home about
    You cannot say it can you

    Sunak is a million miles better than your hero toxic Johnson who is first and foremost the architect of today's chaos

    You believe in confession - go on, you can do this
    No he can't. Cause he don't. Believe that is.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,646
    edited July 2023

    Ms. Heathener, while those are terrible numbers aren't they also par for the course at this point? A bit "Titanic still sinking"?

    I think "par for the course at this point" is rather wishful thinking.

    Par for the course at this point if you are heading for electoral disaster, maybe.

    I blame MoonRabbitdamus for the latest dip:

    I think this straight down line is out of date now


    At least half of recent polls show Tory’s on up compared to recent from pollster

    I challenge Ben to explain why it is happening. What’s actually going on here?

    The cause of the poll shift seems initially to have been the Parliamentary committee putting the Crimes of Johnson, and his continued denial of them, all over the media for a few days. But these upward and downward lines are nearly as shear two weeks later as the Lizbacle, and getting closer to Truss era peaks and troughs.




    If anything overall in the last fortnight the Tory polling position has worsened, but can the swingback Opinium put Tories lower than 26% of last time. Opinium has the kindest methodology towards the incumbent Conservatives, being a swing back poll, and unlike some pollsters, they have been through a general election to season their credibility. What if the clutch of newbies are overestimating Tory support, Yougov, Ipsos and Opinium are the ones correctly calling it.

    Nope. a swingback poll which Methodology put Boris and Liz Truss 4 behind Labour last summer cannot go lower than 26 now for Sunak, as we slip into finaI lap before election. I predict Con 27 Lab 42 gap 15 from next Opinium.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Look centrists swing, they vote for the winning party and we are clearly at a moment where they are fed up of this government, fed up of the economic situation, want a change and ain't coming back before the next election.

    So if you have already lost centrists you need to shore up your core vote. If you don't, you get near wiped out. It is as simple as that.

    In 1997 of course John Major ran a pretty centre right government, he still led the Tories to their lowest voteshare since 1832 and their lowest number of MPs since 1906 with more 1992 Tory voters staying home than switched to New Labour or the LDs and almost a million voting Referendum Party or UKIP.

    Sunak is currently facing an even worse defeat than Major 1997 and going down in history as the worst Tory leader at a general election ever, even worse than Wellington 1832 (and at least the Iron Duke won Waterloo and saved us from Napoleon).

    Yes he is better than Truss but she would have seen the party wiped out, so that is not much to write home about
    You cannot say it can you

    Sunak is a million miles better than your hero toxic Johnson who is first and foremost the architect of today's chaos

    You believe in confession - go on, you can do this
    No he can't. Cause he don't. Believe that is.
    Indeed and their is his problem along with others on the right
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    The BBC presenter facing serious allegations is causing a problem for those who are not involved, with Rylan Clark and Jeremy Vine saying they are looking forward to presenting their programmes
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    DougSeal said:

    Lest we forget (apologies to Percy Bysshe Shelley and Jeremy Corbyn)

    My name is Leonadamus, PBer of PBers;
    Look on my Wallet, ye Lowly, and rejoice!
    Everything inside remains. From the bustle
    Of Camden Road boundless but for ULEZ
    The Wack happy traveler wanders on beyond

    Can you let me know what you’re smoking sometime?
    Only my friendly neighborhood pot shop knows for sure . . .

    For comparison, excerpt from "Ozymandias' penned by obscure, early 19th-century Jeremy Corbyn precursor:

    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Oliver Johnson
    @BristOliver
    ·
    5h
    I think it's quite likely that (as of now) COVID deaths are as low as they've ever been. Previous low was about 10, most recent average is 20. But that's month-old data (from 9th June) and admissions have more than halved since then, so I don't see why deaths wouldn't have too.

    https://twitter.com/BristOliver/status/1677622302412816384
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    Ahem ... oni wnaethoch chi bleidleisio dros Blaid Cymru eich hun?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533

    The BBC presenter facing serious allegations is causing a problem for those who are not involved, with Rylan Clark and Jeremy Vine saying they are looking forward to presenting their programmes

    Any innocent BBC presenter that has booked their summer hols for next week is going to get the wagtha christie treatment by the twatterati.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes.

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    Not fair. Donkeys are (a) nice and (b) already part of SKS policy programme.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657

    The BBC presenter facing serious allegations is causing a problem for those who are not involved, with Rylan Clark and Jeremy Vine saying they are looking forward to presenting their programmes

    Any innocent BBC presenter that has booked their summer hols for next week is going to get the wagtha christie treatment by the twatterati.
    It is a horrible position for an innocent presenter to be in
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    Not fair. Donkeys are (a) nice and (b) already part of SKS policy programme.
    I agree - they are wonderful and used quite often in therapy, but it is just a saying

    My sincere apology to all donkeys
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137

    The BBC presenter facing serious allegations is causing a problem for those who are not involved, with Rylan Clark and Jeremy Vine saying they are looking forward to presenting their programmes

    Any innocent BBC presenter that has booked their summer hols for next week is going to get the wagtha christie treatment by the twatterati.
    It is a horrible position for an innocent presenter to be in
    Lawyers to standby...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes.

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
    And you voted Plaid

    Hypocrisy to say anything else
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,967
    Highly entertaining qualifying. The McLaren is looking impressive.

    Substantial shift in relative performance for Williams in mixed and dry conditions.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Paging @Leon


    Eric Feigl-Ding
    @DrEricDing

    WOW—Harvard professor Avi Loeb believes he may have found fragments of alien technology from a meteor that landed in 2014. Loeb’s team brought the materials back for analysis. U.S. Space Command confirms with almost near certainty, 99.999%, that it came from another solar system.

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1677425554520170501
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    'The UK is committed to a convention which "discourages" the use of cluster bombs, Rishi Sunak has said, after the US agreed to supply them to Ukraine.

    The prime minister highlighted that the UK is one the countries to have banned the controversial weapons, which have a record of killing civilians.

    But he also emphasised the government would continue to support Ukraine.

    US President Joe Biden made what he called a "very difficult decision" to supply them to Kyiv on Friday.'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66142554
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,069

    The BBC presenter facing serious allegations is causing a problem for those who are not involved, with Rylan Clark and Jeremy Vine saying they are looking forward to presenting their programmes

    The joke on Twitter is that everyone who had a holiday booked is cancelling them and coming in to the office
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023

    The BBC presenter facing serious allegations is causing a problem for those who are not involved, with Rylan Clark and Jeremy Vine saying they are looking forward to presenting their programmes

    Any innocent BBC presenter that has booked their summer hols for next week is going to get the wagtha christie treatment by the twatterati.
    It is a horrible position for an innocent presenter to be in
    Lawyers to standby...
    I think from this morning alone they have plenty of opportunities for billable hours.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    I agree with OGH's suggestion. I'm not sure why it became a thing to stand down when the PM was away, but if they are away this much you might as well make the point of being there.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    CatMan said:

    The BBC presenter facing serious allegations is causing a problem for those who are not involved, with Rylan Clark and Jeremy Vine saying they are looking forward to presenting their programmes

    The joke on Twitter is that everyone who had a holiday booked is cancelling them and coming in to the office
    Really
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes.

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
    And you voted Plaid

    Hypocrisy to say anything else
    Only because Plaid were the only other candidates to vote for other than the 4 Tories I had already voted for, there were 6 votes and on principle I always use all my votes
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Paging @Leon


    Eric Feigl-Ding
    @DrEricDing

    WOW—Harvard professor Avi Loeb believes he may have found fragments of alien technology from a meteor that landed in 2014. Loeb’s team brought the materials back for analysis. U.S. Space Command confirms with almost near certainty, 99.999%, that it came from another solar system.

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1677425554520170501

    The number of people who hung onto every word this charlatan said during the pandemic deeply depressing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    stodge said:

    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    Transforming PMQs from two pithy 15-minute slots to a single 30-minute borefest was one of Blair's first innovations as soon as he got his arse on the No. 10 couch.

    Yet not one of his six successors has sought to reverse that change - instead of a cheap jibe against Blair, why not ask Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss or Sunak why they haven't re-instated the two 15-minute sessions?
    Blair was popular enough to get away with his clear disrespect for Parliament.
    No successor has reversed it because it suits them.

    It’s hardly a cheap jibe against Blair, though.
    Recent Tory government, and Sunak is as bad as if not worse than his predecessors, routinely ignore Parliament. But it does retain some teeth, notably through its select committees, despite having one of the weaker Speakers of modern times.
    I'd go further and say Johnson and Sunak have introduced legislationn which has deliberately reduced Parliamanetary scrutiny and given far too much power to Ministers and Whitehall.

    Will Starmer reverse this? I suspect not for Labour are as much authoritarian centralisers as the Conservatives, two cheeks of the same, as @malcolmg would put it.
    In theory they might be against it. Yet I suspect it will all be too low down on the priority list to remove when they get in. It's not as though Whitehall will be pushing it up the agenda.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023
    CatMan said:

    The BBC presenter facing serious allegations is causing a problem for those who are not involved, with Rylan Clark and Jeremy Vine saying they are looking forward to presenting their programmes

    The joke on Twitter is that everyone who had a holiday booked is cancelling them and coming in to the office
    Its one way of breaking down the demands of WFH....
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,069
    Cricket starts in 15min, but looking at the radar I don't think they'll get many overs in, or maybe not even any
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    I know we pull his chain about it, but I do actually appreciate HYUFD voting for PC to use up all his votes. Even though it may have been counter productive to the Tories.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes.

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
    And you voted Plaid

    Hypocrisy to say anything else
    You two never tire of this argument do you?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    The (compelling!) logic of this December 2019 article suggests that even if Biden is not going to run again, he’d say for now that he’s running. I figure early October for the big one-term reveal.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1677655505882292225

    If true, then good news for Newsom.
    Buttigieg is really raising his profile at the moment. And, of course, he has a cracking job for paying out the pork. I only see snippets of US media but from the bits I see he is a completely different class as a debater or interviewee.
    The whole thing seems unlikely.
    Biden pulling out in the late autumn would create a mad scramble, in which anything could happen.

    Newsom’s ability to raise cash quickly would help, I suppose.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023
    DougSeal said:

    Paging @Leon


    Eric Feigl-Ding
    @DrEricDing

    WOW—Harvard professor Avi Loeb believes he may have found fragments of alien technology from a meteor that landed in 2014. Loeb’s team brought the materials back for analysis. U.S. Space Command confirms with almost near certainty, 99.999%, that it came from another solar system.

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1677425554520170501

    The number of people who hung onto every word this charlatan said during the pandemic deeply depressing.
    I still find it incredible the number of "personalities" who consistently talked absolute horseshit throughout covid, but seemed to have escaped without any reputational damage and moved on like nothing happened...cough cough Prof Peston.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,232
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes.

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
    Hold on - you voted for TWO Plaid candidates?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    The (compelling!) logic of this December 2019 article suggests that even if Biden is not going to run again, he’d say for now that he’s running. I figure early October for the big one-term reveal.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1677655505882292225

    If true, then good news for Newsom.
    Buttigieg is really raising his profile at the moment. And, of course, he has a cracking job for paying out the pork. I only see snippets of US media but from the bits I see he is a completely different class as a debater or interviewee.
    The whole thing seems unlikely.
    Biden pulling out in the late autumn would create a mad scramble, in which anything could happen.

    Newsom’s ability to raise cash quickly would help, I suppose.
    Lets be honest, how many career politicians turn down another shot at the top job when they are 2/1 in the betting?

    The rumours are all just based on age. Logic suggests he will be the candidate.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Sandpit said:

    ...

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    It might be a cheap, below the belt shot, but if it gains traction despite being false, it could destroy Starmer.

    If winning at any cost to keep the gravy train rolling is the aim. Why not?
    Lawyers think it’s a low blow, but everyone else says well, he was actually in charge of the organisation that made the decision.

    I’d rather the Tories didn’t go there though. We see from the States, where negative campaigning gets us, way more heat than light.
    For some reason I am reminded of the following.

    A chap I knew was attending a Tory conference as an exhibitor on a stand.

    Due to a queue (security) to get in, he was a bit close to the usual protestors behind a fence. As usual they were throwing stuff, screaming abuse and spitting.

    He (so he said) got spat on. So he took a good swig of water and spat back…

    The bit he found interesting was the way the protestor rushed to a policeman and tried to get something done about his terrible assault.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,232
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    The (compelling!) logic of this December 2019 article suggests that even if Biden is not going to run again, he’d say for now that he’s running. I figure early October for the big one-term reveal.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1677655505882292225

    If true, then good news for Newsom.
    Buttigieg is really raising his profile at the moment. And, of course, he has a cracking job for paying out the pork. I only see snippets of US media but from the bits I see he is a completely different class as a debater or interviewee.
    Editing your post:

    Butt.......crack....view...


  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
    You gave succour to separatism! That's worse than voting Labour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    The (compelling!) logic of this December 2019 article suggests that even if Biden is not going to run again, he’d say for now that he’s running. I figure early October for the big one-term reveal.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1677655505882292225

    If true, then good news for Newsom.
    Buttigieg is really raising his profile at the moment. And, of course, he has a cracking job for paying out the pork. I only see snippets of US media but from the bits I see he is a completely different class as a debater or interviewee.
    The whole thing seems unlikely.
    Biden pulling out in the late autumn would create a mad scramble, in which anything could happen.

    Newsom’s ability to raise cash quickly would help, I suppose.
    Lets be honest, how many career politicians turn down another shot at the top job when they are 2/1 in the betting?

    The rumours are all just based on age. Logic suggests he will be the candidate.
    Unless he has a health emergency, I think he’s running.
    Too many Democrats have endorsed already and said they won’t run (including Buttigieg and Newson - along with Whitmer, who surely otherwise would be in the mix).

    Kristal is engaging in wishcasting, probably.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Paging @Leon


    Eric Feigl-Ding
    @DrEricDing

    WOW—Harvard professor Avi Loeb believes he may have found fragments of alien technology from a meteor that landed in 2014. Loeb’s team brought the materials back for analysis. U.S. Space Command confirms with almost near certainty, 99.999%, that it came from another solar system.

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1677425554520170501

    “We will analyse it, figure out what it’s made of and determine whether it’s natural, or a relic of a probe or a spacecraft,” he explained. “If it’s natural, we will learn something new about the environment beyond our cosmic backyard. In principle, there’s a chance it could be artificial, in which case the impact on humanity will be far greater.”

    So, in principle there is a chance that it could be artificial. Wow, indeed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes.

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
    Hold on - you voted for TWO Plaid candidates?
    He ap plied his quota.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    The (compelling!) logic of this December 2019 article suggests that even if Biden is not going to run again, he’d say for now that he’s running. I figure early October for the big one-term reveal.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1677655505882292225

    If true, then good news for Newsom.
    Buttigieg is really raising his profile at the moment. And, of course, he has a cracking job for paying out the pork. I only see snippets of US media but from the bits I see he is a completely different class as a debater or interviewee.
    Editing your post:

    Butt.......crack....view...

    You missed out "from the bits I see".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    DougSeal said:

    Paging @Leon


    Eric Feigl-Ding
    @DrEricDing

    WOW—Harvard professor Avi Loeb believes he may have found fragments of alien technology from a meteor that landed in 2014. Loeb’s team brought the materials back for analysis. U.S. Space Command confirms with almost near certainty, 99.999%, that it came from another solar system.

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1677425554520170501

    The number of people who hung onto every word this charlatan said during the pandemic deeply depressing.
    Bit unkind to Rottenborough.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    The (compelling!) logic of this December 2019 article suggests that even if Biden is not going to run again, he’d say for now that he’s running. I figure early October for the big one-term reveal.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1677655505882292225

    If true, then good news for Newsom.
    Buttigieg is really raising his profile at the moment. And, of course, he has a cracking job for paying out the pork. I only see snippets of US media but from the bits I see he is a completely different class as a debater or interviewee.
    The whole thing seems unlikely.
    Biden pulling out in the late autumn would create a mad scramble, in which anything could happen.

    Newsom’s ability to raise cash quickly would help, I suppose.
    Lets be honest, how many career politicians turn down another shot at the top job when they are 2/1 in the betting?

    The rumours are all just based on age. Logic suggests he will be the candidate.
    Unless he has a health emergency, I think he’s running.
    Too many Democrats have endorsed already and said they won’t run (including Buttigieg and Newson - along with Whitmer, who surely otherwise would be in the mix).

    Kristal is engaging in wishcasting, probably.
    Don't know who Kristal is but in general the people saying Biden can't possibly run in 2024 are the same people saying he couldn't possibly run in 2020, and get terribly excited every time he stammers or misspeaks, which he has done for decades.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,866
    DougSeal said:

    There’s a slight Brexity whiff to this sudden interest in Dutch politics.

    There is a serious issue that us leftish EUophiles in the U.K. may well to have to face in the next half decade. There’s a strong possibility that a number of major EU countries are going to tack right (in some cases quite sharply) just as we are heading back to the centre left. That’s going to require a big change in the current narrative we’ve been putting out. As was always the danger as I think I’ve pointed out on here before.
    Accidentally ending up in a political union with Victor Orban and his ilk is one thing; deliberately joining one is quite another.

    But, if you genuinely want Britain in the EU because you believe in the project, rather than because membership pushed Britain a bit to the left, it should be possible to craft an argument.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    What boggles the mind with the Reverend @HYUFD is that he pompously preaches from his pulpit about how holier-than-thou he is. Yet when it comes to politics morality goes out the window. No consideration of right and wrong. Of basic human decency. No.

    For the good Reverend literally anything goes. Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, he'd do anything to anything if there was a vote in it.

    So what is the point in the Conservative Party as envisaged by the Rev HYUFD if it believes in nothing but survival? There are no values. No beliefs. No philosophy. A black hole.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    Worse. He would put a blue Rosette on Satan if he though there were votes to be won.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    carnforth said:

    DougSeal said:

    There’s a slight Brexity whiff to this sudden interest in Dutch politics.

    There is a serious issue that us leftish EUophiles in the U.K. may well to have to face in the next half decade. There’s a strong possibility that a number of major EU countries are going to tack right (in some cases quite sharply) just as we are heading back to the centre left. That’s going to require a big change in the current narrative we’ve been putting out. As was always the danger as I think I’ve pointed out on here before.
    Accidentally ending up in a political union with Victor Orban and his ilk is one thing; deliberately joining one is quite another.

    But, if you genuinely want Britain in the EU because you believe in the project, rather than because membership pushed Britain a bit to the left, it should be possible to craft an argument.
    Europe is Sacred Totem, not a political project.

    Anyone who doesn’t understand that is Gammon Racist Neon Nazi Homophobic Transphobic Xenophobic Scum.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    What boggles the mind with the Reverend @HYUFD is that he pompously preaches from his pulpit about how holier-than-thou he is. Yet when it comes to politics morality goes out the window. No consideration of right and wrong. Of basic human decency. No.

    For the good Reverend literally anything goes. Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, he'd do anything to anything if there was a vote in it.

    So what is the point in the Conservative Party as envisaged by the Rev HYUFD if it believes in nothing but survival? There are no values. No beliefs. No philosophy. A black hole.

    No, the Conservatives core values now are belief in Brexit, support for home owners and inherited wealth, cutting inflation, opposing ultra wokeism and ideally tax cuts but only once inflation is down
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
    You gave succour to separatism! That's worse than voting Labour.
    I would have voted for Labour or LDs had they put up candidates for my last 2 but there were no Labour or LD candidates and I had already voted for all the 4 Tory candidates
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    carnforth said:

    DougSeal said:

    There’s a slight Brexity whiff to this sudden interest in Dutch politics.

    There is a serious issue that us leftish EUophiles in the U.K. may well to have to face in the next half decade. There’s a strong possibility that a number of major EU countries are going to tack right (in some cases quite sharply) just as we are heading back to the centre left. That’s going to require a big change in the current narrative we’ve been putting out. As was always the danger as I think I’ve pointed out on here before.
    Accidentally ending up in a political union with Victor Orban and his ilk is one thing; deliberately joining one is quite another.

    But, if you genuinely want Britain in the EU because you believe in the project, rather than because membership pushed Britain a bit to the left, it should be possible to craft an argument.
    And I shudder to think Trump could be in the White House
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    1 over and that may be that. As disappointing as yet another MV pole.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    HYUFD said:

    What boggles the mind with the Reverend @HYUFD is that he pompously preaches from his pulpit about how holier-than-thou he is. Yet when it comes to politics morality goes out the window. No consideration of right and wrong. Of basic human decency. No.

    For the good Reverend literally anything goes. Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, he'd do anything to anything if there was a vote in it.

    So what is the point in the Conservative Party as envisaged by the Rev HYUFD if it believes in nothing but survival? There are no values. No beliefs. No philosophy. A black hole.

    No, the Conservatives core values now are belief in Brexit, support for home owners and inherited wealth, cutting inflation, opposing ultra wokeism and ideally tax cuts but only once inflation is down
    Promoting a stable economy for business?
    Promoting food and wider security?
    Maintaining the currency at a decent level?
    Ditto the balance of payments?
    Promoting morality at the heart of government?
    Goiverning for all classes and all parts of the UK?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,866
    Ok, I've got it. "Let's rejoin the EU to save them from themselves. We can nudge them to the left!"
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
    You gave succour to separatism! That's worse than voting Labour.
    I would have voted for Labour or LDs had they put up candidates for my last 2 but there were no Labour or LD candidates and I had already voted for all the 4 Tory candidates
    Basic rule - never ever vote for the opposition. It might give them that last vote needed in a borderline transferred vote situation.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,750
    "The Commons tradition when the PM is away is for the Opposition leader not to take part."

    Seems like a fairly stupid tradition/convention.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    edited July 2023
    CatMan said:

    Cricket starts in 15min, but looking at the radar I don't think they'll get many overs in, or maybe not even any

    Good call! u21 final on c4 beckons.....
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    HYUFD said:

    What boggles the mind with the Reverend @HYUFD is that he pompously preaches from his pulpit about how holier-than-thou he is. Yet when it comes to politics morality goes out the window. No consideration of right and wrong. Of basic human decency. No.

    For the good Reverend literally anything goes. Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, he'd do anything to anything if there was a vote in it.

    So what is the point in the Conservative Party as envisaged by the Rev HYUFD if it believes in nothing but survival? There are no values. No beliefs. No philosophy. A black hole.

    No, the Conservatives core values now are belief in Brexit, support for home owners and inherited wealth, cutting inflation, opposing ultra wokeism and ideally tax cuts but only once inflation is down
    Belief in Brexit: higher prices and businesses moving abroad. What else?
    Support for homeowners: with mega mortgage rates and the economic disaster that brings?
    Cutting inflation: by increasing inflation?
    "Wokeism": next up on GBeebies, over to Nadine, 30p Lee and Jacob RM to tell us all about it
    Tax Cuts: they're the highest ever in peacetime

    Even your "core values" are a lie. You've done the Exact Opposite of them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Times,


    Looks like Sunak is interested in breaching the 20% floor.

    HYUFD has made repeated arguments lately that the Tories should go for the REFUK 9% share of the vote.

    Perhaps they'll get it?
    They certainly need to win back much of the 9% RefUK vote.

    At the moment Sunak and Hunt are refusing nurses and teachers even a below inflation pay rise, so that is the public sector vote gone to Labour (and to be fair many of the Cabinet from Barclay to Braverman to Chalk to Keegan think they are wrong on that).

    Sunak is also a Leaver and beyond the Windsor framework for NI is refusing to do anything to soften Boris' Brexit deal so that is the Remainer vote gone to Labour and the LDs.

    Sunak is also not doing much to stop the boats and reduce immigation, so that is seeing hardline redwall Brexiteers go RefUK or even back to Labour.

    Hunt is also refusing to even consider any pre election tax cuts, so that is the Thatcherite on economics vote either staying home or also going RefUK.

    Until inflation and interest rates really start to come down mortgage holders will mostly keep voting Labour having switched from the Tories after the Truss budget.

    So who is still voting Tory? Well mostly Leave voting home owning pensioners who aren't too bothered about immigration and fiscal conservatives working in the private sector who own or nearly own outright their properties and are on a high income and not too affected by cost of living.

    Not much scope for re electing lots of Tory MPs with just them however
    The Tories absolutely do not need to win the fruitcake, nut and loon vote.

    You summarise well why the Tories are struggling, but the solution to that is to smartly try to do well on some of those issues and come across as better than the Opposition.

    The Government seems to have given up. And if they give up and just rely on the racist vote, that will drive away more votes than it wins them.
    The Tories are more likely to win back the 9% voting RefUK than the Remainers voting LD or the redwall voters who only lent them their votes to get Brexit done and now it has done have gone back to Labour.

    Mortgage holders won't come back either until interest rates and inflation are well down from current levels whatever the Tories cultural position
    You're assuming you can just appeal to the bigots and not lose anyone already supporting you, or who could.

    You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the concept of Opportunity Cost. If you go for the racist vote you may get it. But it may be all you get.

    The Tories have no divine right not to lose any more of those who are currently supporting them.
    You are already voting LD or even Starmer Labour so we lost you long ago and you aren't coming back for the next election at least so why should we care what you think at the moment? After all we still got 30-31% and over 150 seats even in 1997 and 2001 when you voted New Labour (not to forget your vote for Farage in the 2019 Euros too)
    The trick of achieving power is to persuade those who may disagree with you on some things to support you nonetheless. Your version of politics seems to be the precise opposite. You seem to want to alienate even previous members of your party, let alone mere voters and supporters, because they lack sufficient loyalty to some nebulous far right cause. Apparently only the right should support the Conservatives, but many RefUK voters will not do so, no matter what, and some of them could even vote for other parties. Centrists that used to support the Conservatives view this ideological arrogance as being about as attractive as the barking of a mad dog.

    In the end you will find that they only person sufficiently loyal is you, and that no one else is interested. The further right the Conservatives swing, the fewer voters will be attracted to them. I mean I am not opposed to this suicidal swing, because I want the Conservatives removed from power for the foreseeable future, but for those who still believe in the brand, the Tories are becoming the revolutionaries that eat their own children.

    The Tories governed successfully from the centre right and arguably their problems have resulted from their steady move away from the centre.

    They fact that this move away from the centre has also involved a move from honesty, probity, decency, and competence is another problem.

    Good afternoon

    Excellent post and it is a sad day when a conservative actively dismisses conservative supporters over decades who simply reject the politics of the right and RefUK

    @HYUFD is a closet RefUK supporter who is in thrall to Johnson, Farage and Trump and parrots their cause whenever be can, while looking rather ridiculous

    He and his like are a Trojan horse ensuring the breakup of the conservative party, and with his often far right little Englander attitude is destined to be as relevant going forward as Corbyn is today

    I was appalled at Jenrick's painting over of the Mickey Mouse cartoon and Braverman and him need removing from any influence on the government

    Of courses @HYUFD response will be I am not a true Tory having voted for Blair previously and likely to vote Lib Dem or even Labour in GE24 as an objection to Robin Millar and his gang of 25 troublemakers

    I would just say that if in 12 months the labour party are looking at a landslide, I do not rule out many former conservative supporters holding their noses and vote for the party to mitigate a labour majority, before entering a period or enforced reflection
    I have never voted for a Farage led party in my life, unlike say Bart.

    Nor have I voted Labour at a general election before, unlike you. I am a loyal Tory who wants the best for my party
    You voted Plaid and your attitude is like putting a blue rosette on a donkey
    I voted for all 4 Tory candidates even on that Town Council ballot paper, I just used all my 6 votes

    You voted Labour twice at a general election over the Tory candidates
    You gave succour to separatism! That's worse than voting Labour.
    I would have voted for Labour or LDs had they put up candidates for my last 2 but there were no Labour or LD candidates and I had already voted for all the 4 Tory candidates
    Basic rule - never ever vote for the opposition. It might give them that last vote needed in a borderline transferred vote situation.
    It was for Aberystwyth Town Council for goodness sake, not Westminster or even the Senedd or county council and even then I had already voted for every Tory candidate
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    HYUFD said:

    What boggles the mind with the Reverend @HYUFD is that he pompously preaches from his pulpit about how holier-than-thou he is. Yet when it comes to politics morality goes out the window. No consideration of right and wrong. Of basic human decency. No.

    For the good Reverend literally anything goes. Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, he'd do anything to anything if there was a vote in it.

    So what is the point in the Conservative Party as envisaged by the Rev HYUFD if it believes in nothing but survival? There are no values. No beliefs. No philosophy. A black hole.

    No, the Conservatives core values now are belief in Brexit, support for home owners and inherited wealth, cutting inflation, opposing ultra wokeism and ideally tax cuts but only once inflation is down
    Your core values, others are available including honesty, integrity and decency which have been utterly lacking from Johnson
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    What boggles the mind with the Reverend @HYUFD is that he pompously preaches from his pulpit about how holier-than-thou he is. Yet when it comes to politics morality goes out the window. No consideration of right and wrong. Of basic human decency. No.

    For the good Reverend literally anything goes. Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, he'd do anything to anything if there was a vote in it.

    So what is the point in the Conservative Party as envisaged by the Rev HYUFD if it believes in nothing but survival? There are no values. No beliefs. No philosophy. A black hole.

    No, the Conservatives core values now are belief in Brexit, support for home owners and inherited wealth, cutting inflation, opposing ultra wokeism and ideally tax cuts but only once inflation is down
    Promoting a stable economy for business?
    Promoting food and wider security?
    Maintaining the currency at a decent level?
    Ditto the balance of payments?
    Promoting morality at the heart of government?
    Goiverning for all classes and all parts of the UK?
    You would expect all parties to support those objectives, only the first and fourth could even be said to be slightly more a Conservative than Labour value
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    carnforth said:

    Ok, I've got it. "Let's rejoin the EU to save them from themselves. We can nudge them to the left!"

    It would be ironic if our application were vetoed because we were seen as too liberal.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    carnforth said:

    Ok, I've got it. "Let's rejoin the EU to save them from themselves. We can nudge them to the left!"

    That would require a sensible but firm policy when within Europe.

    As opposed the Foreigners Office policy of “If we give them stuff all the time, they will be nice to us in return”.

    Which did make the French giggle on occasion, I suppose.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,232
    HYUFD said:

    What boggles the mind with the Reverend @HYUFD is that he pompously preaches from his pulpit about how holier-than-thou he is. Yet when it comes to politics morality goes out the window. No consideration of right and wrong. Of basic human decency. No.

    For the good Reverend literally anything goes. Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, he'd do anything to anything if there was a vote in it.

    So what is the point in the Conservative Party as envisaged by the Rev HYUFD if it believes in nothing but survival? There are no values. No beliefs. No philosophy. A black hole.

    No, the Conservatives core values now are belief in Brexit, support for home owners and inherited wealth, cutting inflation, opposing ultra wokeism and ideally tax cuts but only once inflation is down
    Belief in Brexit? Which you opposed. So by your own measure you don't share core Tory values.
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