Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’
At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds
Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.
The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.
However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.
EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.
Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.
The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.
The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.
The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.
Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:
There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.
If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.
Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.
Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.
Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.
This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.
And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.
The numbers don't add up.
And that's before you get to private school closures that would cost jobs, and tax revenues, the extra infrastructure and expansion in state schools to accommodate the extra new pupils - the opex is being costed but not the capex - and the further spike in house prices near the best state schools that will further price out less well-off families outside the catchment area.
It's a dumb policy that will cost the exchequer money, not add to it, will shrink the overall size of the education sector and reduce education outcomes overall - which is why no government of any stripe has done it before.
But, that's not what it's really about: SKS is looking to buy the support of his left-flank, and this is the price, and, politically, it works.
The flaw in the argument above is in "Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.". You can't take the average cost of anything and apply it to the marginal cost of enlarging - the average cost includes a large amount for the basic cost of having a school at all. Adding some pupils to it is not proportionate, even if it means building an extra classroom.
That would be true if there was any existing capacity in state schools. In most, there is not. You do, actually, need to build a new school.
Of course from 2030 sale of petrol and diesel cars will be banned in the UK and by 2035 sale of hybrid cars, so we won't have much choice but to go electric then
I expect that date to change not least at the demand of German car makers and it will be many years before petrol and diesel cars become extinct, it at all
Die Großen Drei German OEMs (BMW, Mercedes, VAG) absolutely love EVs and are building their product roadmaps around them. Why? Because the cost of designing and engineering ICE powertrains is now phenomenally expensive (see JLR just giving up and using BMW engines) and the Chinese market has a high demand for EVs.
Assuming your name rflects your interests, and pushing the off-topic envelope, Shimano 105: R7000 2x11 mechanical or di2 2x12?
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
You use this word plebs a lot. It really says a great deal more about you than it does about the groups you are cack-handedly trying to attack.
Mmmm, one of our most self-righteous posters gets on their high horse again.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Presumably you'd support a policy of allowing everyone one return flight per year, but taxing the hell out of anyone flying more than that then?
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
It’s your own naivety for letting the car run so low on fuel in that scenario. I was told always to leave a minimum of 50 miles range in the tank, then you’d never be in a tight spot. Proved to be an excellent rule of thumb.
I had about 50 when I set off on a 20 mile journey where there was a petrol station right besides where I planned to park.....being stuck in a jam you cant get out of for 6 hours is not something you can plan for.
I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.
More recently, I bought a Rivian.
EVs are great if:
(a) you have somewhere to charge it at home (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips
If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.
There's another requirement: (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
The cost differential is closing every day.
The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.
People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.
Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?
I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.
Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.
If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
The problem is that those three are big ifs.
Now the third one is a matter of time. Over time the cost of a new electric vehicle is closing on the cost of a new petrol one. Over an even longer period of time, the cost of second hand markets should adjust accordingly. But we can't rush time.
The second one is not significant for most people in this country and so long as fast chargers become widespread, if you are driving 300 miles in a day then taking a half hour break at some point is a matter of safety anyway.
The first one though is humongous flashing red alarms and klaxons. I'm fortunate, I have a new-build with a driveway and with an electric car charger built-in as standard as part of the new build. Millions of other people are not so fortunate, and we should not take that for granted. And the problem I see is that decision makers are probably those disproportionately more likely to have driveways so take it for granted.
Houses are still being built in Mews/Terraces without driveways, that is ridiculous in this day and age and given what we know is coming. It should be standard that every new home, where possible, has an off-road driveway and charger port built in as standard. But tackling new homes alone won't solve the issue, we need a solution for existing homes too - and the ones suggested so far including retrofitting street lighting etc seem to be laughably inept and not a serious solution.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
You use this word plebs a lot. It really says a great deal more about you than it does about the groups you are cack-handedly trying to attack.
Mmmm, one of our most self-righteous posters gets on their high horse again.
You are the one who uses epithets like “plebs” regularly, not me.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
Some points there I hadn't thought of. Not least my refusal on principle to use anything that requires a phone to operate. And absolutely not if it needs a phone to pay.
Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.
Good morning
Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive
I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.
Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg
My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax
Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change
I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
EVs don't work for everyone. But on your trips to Lossie where you make 3 or 4 stops? An EV would charge whilst you did so. Depends on which generation of 5-series you have, but its hardly in a class of its own - Audi and Mercedes as starters for 10 offer similar vehicles with similar interiors.
Then we have the drivetrain point. Your car either has a manual box or a ZF 8-speed auto. Manual boxes are something out of the ark (though I know they can be pleasing to play with), the ZF box is pretty much industry leading. But neither are anything compared to electric transmission. Once you've had an electric motor instead of a gearbox, any cog shifting feels as backwards as it is.
So lets take a real world example - traffic. I have two recent example on my trip through England last week. Stuck in a big queue on the edge of cities. In a manual I would be endlessly having to blend out the clutch. In an automatic there is less work, but with either on your 4 pot diesel you're belching filth into the environment where people live and work.
Whereas I sat there. Literally. The car driving itself. Steering, acceleration, braking. No input from me. Whilst not spewing filth out into people's lungs. Its *easier* to drive an EV.
None of which really addreses Big G's point (and mine which I made the other day). It takes me 8 hours to drive to Aberdeen on a lot less than a single tank of diesel. How long would it take me to do that drive in an EV? HOw long would I currently have to be sat wasting time at a servoce station whilst thecr is chartged? Even if I can actually get to a charger.
For anyone regularly travelling long distances with time constraints EVs are impractical at present. I don't want them to be but they are. And of course my last ICE vehicle cost me £500 second hand. Not seeing any viable comparisons in the EV market any time soon.
It is unreasonable to expect to be able to transition to a net zero economy while retaining every single aspect of our current unsustainable way of living. Some things may be lost, such as the ability to be anywhere in the country within a short amount of time. Businesses and individuals will adapt to cope with this.
So the great master plan is to reduce freedom and choice for millions of people.
Be interesting to see a government have the courage of their convictions and actually be honest about that.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
While having no skin in the game as I don't own any vehicle besides one of those electric scooters.
Much is said of it depends if you have a driveway. Never seen it pointed out as yet that actually doesn't tell the whole story. Many families , moreso now that children aren't flying the nest so young, will be of necessity multi car households. Being able to charge overnight on the driveway is one thing....being able to charge all cars overnight quite another.
Do you go to the petrol station every single day?
If a multicar household can charge one car one day, and the other car another day, then that's OK too for most families. Simply being able to charge or not is the primary concern, not many people will be returning home with a depleted battery every single day.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
How would you go about reducing CO2 emissions from transport then?
First of all, focusing on just CO2 is the wrong policy because you will focus on a metric. You have to look at the whole environmental impact (which is an issue when it comes to electric batteries).
However, on your question, what I would like to see that - if we are serious about this - we introduce subsidies, pricing policies etc that are graduated by wealth. Put simply, the rich should - seriously - help to subsidise the poor in their transition to a EV future. If that means an extra 10% on inheritance tax of wealthier people, then surely that is an acceptable enough price to help save the planet?
All these discussions about private school fees seem to ignore the obvious extension of the argument to putting VAT on University fees. After all a selected section of the community benefit, universities are in effect a business and all the other other arguments put forward seem to apply.
Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’
At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds
Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.
The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.
However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.
EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.
Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.
The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.
The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.
The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.
A local, private, all girls school announced this week it is closing in June for good. The decisive factor was the removal of the charity exemption for rates. So rather than raising more money the policy in this case has cost well over 100 jobs and will throw quite a number of kids onto the local authorities. It will not be the only one.
The inability of politicians, in this case the Scottish government, to recognise that actions have consequences and people and businesses react to being taxed, is truly remarkable.
They don't care, as it's not about money or helping people. It's about ideology.
Yes, but they also like to claim they can fund other things they want to do by the policy in exactly the same way as Labour are claiming with VAT on school fees.
They’ll be funding a lot more school places for a start. Although where they get the money from, is a different question!
Under any reasonable assumption on switching, the policy will pay for more state school places with money left over to raise per pupil funding. A policy that raises school funding while removing an unfair tax distortion that funnels money to the well off, what's not to like about that?
I really don't think it will 'under any reasonable assumption'. BOAFP: Labour need to ensure no more than one in four children move from private to state sector just to break even. It isn't obvious that this will be the case.
People who have studied this in detail have found that spending on private education is fairly price-inelastic, as is evident in the fact that fees have gone up significantly in recent years while the proportion of children in the private sector hasn't changed much.
So you can increase the cost of a thing - to which there is a free alternative - by 20% without the demand for that thing going down? That seems a bold assumption. You would have thought if that were the case then the producers of that thing would have already increased the cost of the thing to take advantage of that.
Not if private schools are competing with each other on price. Or are they operating a cartel?
I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.
More recently, I bought a Rivian.
EVs are great if:
(a) you have somewhere to charge it at home (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips
If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.
There's another requirement: (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
The cost differential is closing every day.
The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.
People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
I also expect the batteries to continue to improve in capacity (equivalent to weight in that you can use smaller ones) charging time and cost.
One of the most interesting EVs in my view is the Dacia Spring. It's very much a version 1 model and is mediocre in most respects, but I think think its design approach is the way forward.
Most EVs are over-engineered. To get more range manufacturers add bigger batteries, which add weight and massively increase cost.
The starting point for the Spring is the smallest viable battery from which the designers work out an.acceptable tradeoff of range, performance and internal space. Compared with ICE the smaller motor and greater torque of an electric car allow a smaller vehicle and less overall power for a similar experience.
The small battery means the Spring weighs less and costs about £18 000, just a few thousand more than the equivalent ICE before subsidies. It can be charged overnight on a standard 13A plug.
An EV should be able to offer packaging which makes for preposterous amounts of space for the size of the car. Should. Almost all are built by legacy carmakers in existing factories, often on the same production line as mechanical cars.
Because their production line is set up to build and insert an engine, so many end up with a motor / invertor stack in place of the engine, which restricts the packaging. So many EVs retain a big bonnet full of stuff, which cuts down on internal space. And if its BMW / Audi etc they then add insult to injury by adding a gopping great grill on the front which looks absurd and serves no purpose.
If Dacia are starting with a blank sheet of paper, and can manufacture a true EV rather than an EV conversion of an existing platform, it could be a game changer.
Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’
At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds
Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.
The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.
However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.
EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.
Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.
The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.
The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.
The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
You know millions of people live paycheque to paycheque and cannot always afford money to put petrol in the tank when it goes below a quarter because there pay isn't due for a couple of days so they take the risk as they have no choice.
Of course as a penurious lawyer you wouldn't have been in that situation
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
You use this word plebs a lot. It really says a great deal more about you than it does about the groups you are cack-handedly trying to attack.
Mmmm, one of our most self-righteous posters gets on their high horse again.
You are the one who uses epithets like “plebs” regularly, not me.
Mmmm, touched a sore point? I'm guessing you are not the type who would be keen on "White Van Man" moving in next door.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Presumably you'd support a policy of allowing everyone one return flight per year, but taxing the hell out of anyone flying more than that then?
Just answered that one - basically, the wealthier need to accept a seriously higher burden to help transit poorer households.
Of course from 2030 sale of petrol and diesel cars will be banned in the UK and by 2035 sale of hybrid cars, so we won't have much choice but to go electric then
I expect that date to change not least at the demand of German car makers and it will be many years before petrol and diesel cars become extinct, it at all
Die Großen Drei German OEMs (BMW, Mercedes, VAG) absolutely love EVs and are building their product roadmaps around them. Why? Because the cost of designing and engineering ICE powertrains is now phenomenally expensive (see JLR just giving up and using BMW engines) and the Chinese market has a high demand for EVs.
Assuming your name rflects your interests, and pushing the off-topic envelope, Shimano 105: R7000 2x11 mechanical or di2 2x12?
I'd always recommend Di2 if the budget allows. Never goes out of adjustment, quicker shifts, gear display on the bike computer and optional one handed operation. Always update the firmware though as most bike shops never bother doing this. The 'one way' bleeding isn't great on 105 calipers if you prefer a 'hard and high' lever feel though.
All these discussions about private school fees seem to ignore the obvious extension of the argument to putting VAT on University fees. After all a selected section of the community benefit, universities are in effect a business and all the other other arguments put forward seem to apply.
University fees are overwhemingly paid for by loans. Those loans aren't likely to be paid back as it is. Adding 20% to the face value of the loans is effectively straight up borrowing.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
I must admit the light comes on regularly for me. But that is because I usually have to make a dedicated journey to town to refuel. Or rather I choose to do so as the local rural petrol stations are a lot more expensive. So I don't tend to refuel until I actually have to.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
Three times in three decades? That's a bit OCPD TBF.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
It’s your own naivety for letting the car run so low on fuel in that scenario. I was told always to leave a minimum of 50 miles range in the tank, then you’d never be in a tight spot. Proved to be an excellent rule of thumb.
I had about 50 when I set off on a 20 mile journey where there was a petrol station right besides where I planned to park.....being stuck in a jam you cant get out of for 6 hours is not something you can plan for.
Nor should you plan for it or base your car purchasing decisions around it because it's a once in ten lifetimes event.
I'm 55, have owned over 300 cars, done amazingly stupid shit in most of them and have never been in a 6 hour stationary traffic jam or ran out of fuel.
In the vanishingly unlikely event that it does happen you can charge an EV from another EV if it has V2L. (This how the RAC do their 'EV Boost' EV recovery service.)
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
That's essentially nonsense.
All new technologies start at the high end of the market, for obvious reasons. The manufacturers couldn't now build enough EVs to supply the whole car market even if they weren't interested in making a profit.
But car manufacturers are spending hundreds of billions over the next of this decade (as will be governments who subsidising the effort) to build new factories to build EVs to replace the ones that now turn out ICE vehicles.
The transition will be awkward for those with the least resources - and you're possibly right that wealthier individuals, who tend on average to have more political influence, don't care much about that. But the response ought to be to press government to address those problems, rather than pretend there's some sort of conspiracy.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
I think you need to drive an EV for a year and see whether you can stick to that rule. I find Nerys's story about a Mercedes getting towed 3 times in a year credible (and that its owner is not an idiot).
Charging: cross-pavement cables are an invitation to vandalism and lawsuits, and that's before we get on to the flat-dwellers.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
I was surprised just how expensive EV’s were when I bought a new car, last September. Right now, I don’t see an economic benefit.
Of course from 2030 sale of petrol and diesel cars will be banned in the UK and by 2035 sale of hybrid cars, so we won't have much choice but to go electric then
I expect that date to change not least at the demand of German car makers and it will be many years before petrol and diesel cars become extinct, it at all
Die Großen Drei German OEMs (BMW, Mercedes, VAG) absolutely love EVs and are building their product roadmaps around them. Why? Because the cost of designing and engineering ICE powertrains is now phenomenally expensive (see JLR just giving up and using BMW engines) and the Chinese market has a high demand for EVs.
Assuming your name rflects your interests, and pushing the off-topic envelope, Shimano 105: R7000 2x11 mechanical or di2 2x12?
I'd always recommend Di2 if the budget allows. Never goes out of adjustment, quicker shifts, gear display on the bike computer and optional one handed operation. Always update the firmware though as most bike shops never bother doing this. The 'one way' bleeding isn't great on 105 calipers if you prefer a 'hard and high' lever feel though.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
I think you need to drive an EV for a year and see whether you can stick to that rule. I find Nerys's story about a Mercedes getting towed 3 times in a year credible (and that its owner is not an idiot).
Charging: cross-pavement cables are an invitation to vandalism and lawsuits, and that's before we get on to the flat-dwellers.
Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.
Good morning
Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive
I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.
Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg
My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax
Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change
I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
EVs don't work for everyone. But on your trips to Lossie where you make 3 or 4 stops? An EV would charge whilst you did so. Depends on which generation of 5-series you have, but its hardly in a class of its own - Audi and Mercedes as starters for 10 offer similar vehicles with similar interiors.
Then we have the drivetrain point. Your car either has a manual box or a ZF 8-speed auto. Manual boxes are something out of the ark (though I know they can be pleasing to play with), the ZF box is pretty much industry leading. But neither are anything compared to electric transmission. Once you've had an electric motor instead of a gearbox, any cog shifting feels as backwards as it is.
So lets take a real world example - traffic. I have two recent example on my trip through England last week. Stuck in a big queue on the edge of cities. In a manual I would be endlessly having to blend out the clutch. In an automatic there is less work, but with either on your 4 pot diesel you're belching filth into the environment where people live and work.
Whereas I sat there. Literally. The car driving itself. Steering, acceleration, braking. No input from me. Whilst not spewing filth out into people's lungs. Its *easier* to drive an EV.
None of which really addreses Big G's point (and mine which I made the other day). It takes me 8 hours to drive to Aberdeen on a lot less than a single tank of diesel. How long would it take me to do that drive in an EV? HOw long would I currently have to be sat wasting time at a servoce station whilst thecr is chartged? Even if I can actually get to a charger.
For anyone regularly travelling long distances with time constraints EVs are impractical at present. I don't want them to be but they are. And of course my last ICE vehicle cost me £500 second hand. Not seeing any viable comparisons in the EV market any time soon.
I literally make money on YouTube doing videos about this exact thing. Your 8 hour trip - how many stops? Most people would have 2 stops, maybe 3. Toilet, a snack, in the shop - so perhaps 20 minutes per stop? Before you claim to do it non-stop, or make 1 5-minute stop half way and that's all, again I say "most people". There is a reason why motorway service areas are so busy - most people make stops.
So in your 20 minute stop, plug your car in, add another 150+ miles of range, and then carry on. If you only charge when you were stopping anyway, the time added to your journey for charging is zero. That is my experience of half a dozen now trips from north of Aberdeen down to Sheffield / Liverpool / Essex etc. The number of times I have queued to charge is zero.
I've even done a direct comparison of the same Aberdeenshire to Dartford trip in my current Tesla Model Y vs the previous Outlander PHEV. Tesla was 20 minutes faster, and £50 cheaper. A real world example.
The size of your tank or the range it offers is irrelevant in real world usage. Most people's range is how far their bladder lasts, or their stomach needs a snack, or they need a break because want to get out and stretch their legs. They aren't driving 600 miles of range without a stop.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
The poor are generally looking to spend less than 3000 on buying a car....what ev gets that low? You won't get many min wage workers paying much more than that I suspect where as now they can spend a couple of grand and get a car that lasts a couple of years and get them to work. They will be mostly buying of facebook market, craigslist, ebay, local ads
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
You know millions of people live paycheque to paycheque and cannot always afford money to put petrol in the tank when it goes below a quarter because there pay isn't due for a couple of days so they take the risk as they have no choice.
Of course as a penurious lawyer you wouldn't have been in that situation
I did the same from I started driving and I started driving same time as I started my A-levels.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
...Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
There's a fairly clear motive in the US, where car dealers make big money from the existing system, and are generous funders of Republican politicians. They absolutely loathe Tesla, since it has bypassed them completely.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
You know millions of people live paycheque to paycheque and cannot always afford money to put petrol in the tank when it goes below a quarter because there pay isn't due for a couple of days so they take the risk as they have no choice.
Of course as a penurious lawyer you wouldn't have been in that situation
I did the same from I started driving and I started driving same time as I started my A-levels.
Then you must have sometimes been in a situation where your bank balance gave you a choice of petrol or risk it and eat
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
The poor are generally looking to spend less than 3000 on buying a car....what ev gets that low? You won't get many min wage workers paying much more than that I suspect where as now they can spend a couple of grand and get a car that lasts a couple of years and get them to work. They will be mostly buying of facebook market, craigslist, ebay, local ads
2nd hand Leafs starting to drop to more affordable prices.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
...Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
There's a fairly clear motive in the US, where car dealers make big money from the existing system, and are generous funders of Republican politicians. They absolutely loathe Tesla, since it has bypassed them completely.
Tesla also doesn't money on advertising, which doesn't endear them to the media.
On EVs, it looks to me like a no-brainer if a) you're reasonably well off, and b) you can charge it at home.
However, an awful lot of us who are green-sympathetic, and vote Labour/Green, live in cities. And we live in houses/flats that don't have garages or driveways. We park on the street, often with difficulty as demand is very high - only occasionally do I get to park outside my house. We are nowhere near putting in the infrastructure to make EVs an easy option. Where I live, on-street chargers are beginning to emerge, slowly, but of course that reduces the number of parking spots for those without EVs - and this will, presumably, accelerate. It's a big dilemma, with no easy solutions, but EVs for many city dwellers aren't a sensible option yet.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
The poor are generally looking to spend less than 3000 on buying a car....what ev gets that low? You won't get many min wage workers paying much more than that I suspect where as now they can spend a couple of grand and get a car that lasts a couple of years and get them to work. They will be mostly buying of facebook market, craigslist, ebay, local ads
They aren't spending £3,000 on a new car. I just spend £2,000 on a car. 14 years old. So of course EVs aren't available to you if that is your budget. But give it another decade and they will be.
On EVs, it looks to me like a no-brainer if a) you're reasonably well off, and b) you can charge it at home.
However, an awful lot of us who are green-sympathetic, and vote Labour/Green, live in cities. And we live in houses/flats that don't have garages or driveways. We park on the street, often with difficulty as demand is very high - only occasionally do I get to park outside my house. We are nowhere near putting in the infrastructure to make EVs an easy option. Where I live, on-street chargers are beginning to emerge, slowly, but of course that reduces the number of parking spots for those without EVs - and this will, presumably, accelerate. It's a big dilemma, with no easy solutions, but EVs for many city dwellers aren't a sensible option yet.
Another thing to note for all car's not just ev's in particular is the pernicious way some manufacturers are now making features of the cars they sell subscription features where you have to pay yearly or they turn it off
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
The poor are generally looking to spend less than 3000 on buying a car....what ev gets that low? ...
There are no really cheap mass market models in the west, as we don't yet produce enough batteries for it to make economic sense for manufacturers to build them (profit margins are, obviously, much lower on cheap cars). They will come in time, since at some point the supply of batteries will meet, and perhaps even start to exceed the demand.
As EVs become mass market, a much bigger second hand market will also come into existence.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
You know millions of people live paycheque to paycheque and cannot always afford money to put petrol in the tank when it goes below a quarter because there pay isn't due for a couple of days so they take the risk as they have no choice.
Of course as a penurious lawyer you wouldn't have been in that situation
I did the same from I started driving and I started driving same time as I started my A-levels.
Then you must have sometimes been in a situation where your bank balance gave you a choice of petrol or risk it and eat
Yes, up to the age of 22 my bank was The Bank of Mum & Dad.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
You use this word plebs a lot. It really says a great deal more about you than it does about the groups you are cack-handedly trying to attack.
Mmmm, one of our most self-righteous posters gets on their high horse again.
You are the one who uses epithets like “plebs” regularly, not me.
Mmmm, touched a sore point? I'm guessing you are not the type who would be keen on "White Van Man" moving in next door.
Again, you are that insists on using these terms, not me. A period of introspection on your part might be welcome.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
The poor are generally looking to spend less than 3000 on buying a car....what ev gets that low? You won't get many min wage workers paying much more than that I suspect where as now they can spend a couple of grand and get a car that lasts a couple of years and get them to work. They will be mostly buying of facebook market, craigslist, ebay, local ads
2nd hand Leafs starting to drop to more affordable prices.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
Who needs Tesla to spend money on advertising when you'll do it for free?
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
You know millions of people live paycheque to paycheque and cannot always afford money to put petrol in the tank when it goes below a quarter because there pay isn't due for a couple of days so they take the risk as they have no choice.
Of course as a penurious lawyer you wouldn't have been in that situation
I did the same from I started driving and I started driving same time as I started my A-levels.
I used to drive on old Morris Marina on trips of several hundred miles. I was more concerned about it's lasting the trip without mechanical failure than running out of fuel.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
I'd rather walk from Aberdeen to Dartford carrying an unwashed and naked Therese Coffey on my back than give Musk 1p.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
...Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
There's a fairly clear motive in the US, where car dealers make big money from the existing system, and are generous funders of Republican politicians. They absolutely loathe Tesla, since it has bypassed them completely.
Tesla. Bought online. Delivered at a showroom where the staff don't sell cars (genuinely - if you say "I want to order one" they will go online for you and assist you buying one online). With no servicing requirements. With brakes that will last a looooong time, tyres which on mine at least are still very healthy after 16k miles, and no consumables needing replacement.
It is a massive threat to existing manufacturers, to dealerships, to part manufacturers, to their entire way of doing business.
But it shouldn't be. Go back to the 70s and cars would dissolve or fall apart in a few years. That doesn't happen any more, yet manufacturers and dealers still exist. Legacy manufacturers still build cars the traditional way (lots of components bolted together), still add complexity which they then need to service. So it isn't EV that threatens, its the new manufacturers.
Tesla make so much money because they build cars in a completely different way. Other new entrants are doing the same, and it is that which threatens the likes of Mercedes. My Tesla Model Y was the best selling car globally in Q1. It is the new Model T Ford - revolutionising the industry. A threat if you don't want change.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
Who needs Tesla to spend money on advertising when you'll do it for free?
Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.
Good morning
Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive
I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.
Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg
My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax
Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change
I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
EVs don't work for everyone. But on your trips to Lossie where you make 3 or 4 stops? An EV would charge whilst you did so. Depends on which generation of 5-series you have, but its hardly in a class of its own - Audi and Mercedes as starters for 10 offer similar vehicles with similar interiors.
Then we have the drivetrain point. Your car either has a manual box or a ZF 8-speed auto. Manual boxes are something out of the ark (though I know they can be pleasing to play with), the ZF box is pretty much industry leading. But neither are anything compared to electric transmission. Once you've had an electric motor instead of a gearbox, any cog shifting feels as backwards as it is.
So lets take a real world example - traffic. I have two recent example on my trip through England last week. Stuck in a big queue on the edge of cities. In a manual I would be endlessly having to blend out the clutch. In an automatic there is less work, but with either on your 4 pot diesel you're belching filth into the environment where people live and work.
Whereas I sat there. Literally. The car driving itself. Steering, acceleration, braking. No input from me. Whilst not spewing filth out into people's lungs. Its *easier* to drive an EV.
None of which really addreses Big G's point (and mine which I made the other day). It takes me 8 hours to drive to Aberdeen on a lot less than a single tank of diesel. How long would it take me to do that drive in an EV? HOw long would I currently have to be sat wasting time at a servoce station whilst thecr is chartged? Even if I can actually get to a charger.
For anyone regularly travelling long distances with time constraints EVs are impractical at present. I don't want them to be but they are. And of course my last ICE vehicle cost me £500 second hand. Not seeing any viable comparisons in the EV market any time soon.
It is unreasonable to expect to be able to transition to a net zero economy while retaining every single aspect of our current unsustainable way of living. Some things may be lost, such as the ability to be anywhere in the country within a short amount of time. Businesses and individuals will adapt to cope with this.
So the great master plan is to reduce freedom and choice for millions of people.
Be interesting to see a government have the courage of their convictions and actually be honest about that.
Don't be silly. Of course nobody wants to reduce anyone's freedom and choice. But is frankly ridiculously entitled to assume that everything can carry on exactly as now, and I do indeed wish that governments would be honest about that. If we are to achieve our goal of a sustainable civilisation, then things need to change, some for the better and, yes, some for the worse. The technology is about mitigating the adverse effects as far as possible.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
The poor are generally looking to spend less than 3000 on buying a car....what ev gets that low? You won't get many min wage workers paying much more than that I suspect where as now they can spend a couple of grand and get a car that lasts a couple of years and get them to work. They will be mostly buying of facebook market, craigslist, ebay, local ads
They aren't spending £3,000 on a new car. I just spend £2,000 on a car. 14 years old. So of course EVs aren't available to you if that is your budget. But give it another decade and they will be.
Good luck is going to be required on that aged battery....
The German Ministry of Defense has instructed the Rheinmetall arms concern to prepare more than 20 more Marder infantry fighting vehicles for transportation to Ukraine, RND reports. https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1666364370908246016
Germans are getting their act together. There's also some talk of the hundred or so mothballed Leopards being brought back into operational condition sooner than planned.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
I'd rather walk from Aberdeen to Dartford carrying an unwashed and naked Therese Coffey on my back than give Musk 1p.
It's not the Uber ride that Therese was expecting....
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
...Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
There's a fairly clear motive in the US, where car dealers make big money from the existing system, and are generous funders of Republican politicians. They absolutely loathe Tesla, since it has bypassed them completely.
Tesla also doesn't money on advertising, which doesn't endear them to the media.
I suspect they'll go on a similar journey to Amazon with advertising; Captain Jeff Penisrocket didn't 'believe' in it for a long time, but realised after a while that both brand and activation advertising are important for growth in the long term, especially in a market that becomes increasingly competitive.
As the unquestioned brand leader in their vertical Tesla didn't really need to do brand ads - they were selling everything they made and there was a lot of excitement and fanboyishness about them. As a brand it has undeniably made electric cars desirable and cool (remember that the market leader before was the two-steps-from-a-milk-float Nissan Leaf).
However, their brand is struggling as it becomes less cool - Musky is divisive (to be generous) and remains closely associated with Tesla's image. Rumours around reliability, NDAs and whatnot have not helped. The pricing strategy has been sclerotic and reduced the brand's prestige, as (maybe more arguably) have the bland aesthetics of the Model 3.
That is all happening to Tesla's brand regardless of the market - BUT, the market (especially German and Korean manufacturers) has itself now caught up with Tesla, giving consumers more choice and also offering more market niches than Tesla's limited range. Now, against a backdrop of extraordinary sector growth that won't hurt Tesla much in the short term, but in the long run they are in severe danger of being eclipsed, become both less cool and less competitive.
Brand advertising will be crucial to whether they survive or not. They are no longer a market disrupter. If they want sustained growth and sales, they need to remain appealing in a market that will quickly outgun them in terms of brand loyalty and market infrastructure.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
The poor are generally looking to spend less than 3000 on buying a car....what ev gets that low? You won't get many min wage workers paying much more than that I suspect where as now they can spend a couple of grand and get a car that lasts a couple of years and get them to work. They will be mostly buying of facebook market, craigslist, ebay, local ads
They aren't spending £3,000 on a new car. I just spend £2,000 on a car. 14 years old. So of course EVs aren't available to you if that is your budget. But give it another decade and they will be.
Good luck is going to be required on that aged battery....
Why? Plenty of examples of old EVs on 250k miles with a battery that is perfectly healthy. The "you'll need to buy a new battery" myth still gets wheeled out, but that doesn't make it factual.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
Three times in three decades? That's a bit OCPD TBF.
I have been driving for 62 years and have not had a light come on or run out of fuel
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
The poor are generally looking to spend less than 3000 on buying a car....what ev gets that low? You won't get many min wage workers paying much more than that I suspect where as now they can spend a couple of grand and get a car that lasts a couple of years and get them to work. They will be mostly buying of facebook market, craigslist, ebay, local ads
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
You know millions of people live paycheque to paycheque and cannot always afford money to put petrol in the tank when it goes below a quarter because there pay isn't due for a couple of days so they take the risk as they have no choice.
Of course as a penurious lawyer you wouldn't have been in that situation
I did the same from I started driving and I started driving same time as I started my A-levels.
I used to drive on old Morris Marina on trips of several hundred miles. I was more concerned about it's lasting the trip without mechanical failure than running out of fuel.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
Wowsers. 1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper . 2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars. 3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
The poor are generally looking to spend less than 3000 on buying a car....what ev gets that low? You won't get many min wage workers paying much more than that I suspect where as now they can spend a couple of grand and get a car that lasts a couple of years and get them to work. They will be mostly buying of facebook market, craigslist, ebay, local ads
2nd hand Leafs starting to drop to more affordable prices.
1.They are really very expensive. 2. Their range is not good. 3. Charging infrastructure is patchy and unreliable
Until these 3 change I will not be buying one. For very local journeys we walk or bike. There are no buses. The trains have become unreliable since the strikes. Cars are essential. But EV's are as yet wholly impractical.
Where of course ev's really fail is a scenario I think most have done once
Driving along you realise you have overestimated your fuel/charge due to conditions. You start muttering prayers as you head to the nearest filling station but run out short.
Now in an ice car its a total inconvenience and you swear as you trudge/hitchhike to the nearest bp then do the reverse journey with a flagon of petrol.
In an ev you do? Difficult to go fetch a bucket of electricity
You get someone to tow you.
It's a pain.
But I'm 48 years old and have never run out of fuel. It's not that common a scenario.
Towing costs a fair amount of money as I know from when I had to get towed off a motorway when my last car broke down.
Running out of fuel is more common than you think especially in cold weather where you are stuck in a jam and need the engine running for heat. Something I suspect just as common in ev's as ice. Most I know have run out of fuel at least once in their life due to this
I’ve never come close to running out of fuel and I’m in my mid 40s. You have to be pretty absent minded to allow that to happen.
The light comes on with about 70 miles left in the tank these days.
I’ve been driving for nearly 28 years.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
I think you need to drive an EV for a year and see whether you can stick to that rule. I find Nerys's story about a Mercedes getting towed 3 times in a year credible (and that its owner is not an idiot).
Charging: cross-pavement cables are an invitation to vandalism and lawsuits, and that's before we get on to the flat-dwellers.
I have a hybrid.
Never had any issues.
Meaningless, then. EG a Range Rover PHEV has a 90 litre tank, 1.5x the size of my diesel truck. 90 litres, not a typo.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
Who needs Tesla to spend money on advertising when you'll do it for free?
It’s a statement of fact that Tesla’s charging network is a huge selling point for Tesla vehicles over other EVs.
Other car manufacturers completely failed to understand this, or else refused to put the capital in to build out an equivalent charging network themselves & the result is that people are buying Tesla over (say) Porsches because of the charging network.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
I'd rather walk from Aberdeen to Dartford carrying an unwashed and naked Therese Coffey on my back than give Musk 1p.
Ultimately, I expect the shift to ICEs to EVs to be a little like the shift from horses to ICEs. To begin with, the new mode of transport will be expensive and impractical for many, but in time the costs will come down, the infrastructure will improve and people will get used to doing things differently. Some will continue to gripe and moan as they did then ("I'll never get one of those stupid machines - my horse knows the way home by itself, and can be refuelled anywhere on grass").
My Renault Zoe cost me £12k (2 years old). Range 185 miles in summer, 160 in winter. It depreciates pretty slowly so the current value is £11k after 2 years of ownership. £500 a year.
It's been great. The main reason I use it (in our local urban drives, which after all are by far the most common trips) is because of tailpipe emissions. I want to limit my contribution to the poor urban air quality that kills thousands every year. I drive our big diesel car on longer rural journeys and holidays.
The trouble at the moment is that the cost of charging the Zoe at home is actually higher per mile than the cost to fill the diesel, such is the odd state of the markets for diesel and petrol (rapid recent price drops) and domestic electricity (continued historically high costs). That's market failure and is no doubt slowing down EV adoption.
I'd rather walk from Aberdeen to Dartford carrying an unwashed and naked Therese Coffey on my back than give Musk 1p. Dura_Ace
So you are quite happy to bid the price of oil that benefits theocratic dictatorships which jail women for 45 years who post on social media? Alternatively you could support someone who lost 10% of their net worth ending corporate censorship of social media.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
I'd rather walk from Aberdeen to Dartford carrying an unwashed and naked Therese Coffey on my back than give Musk 1p.
My Renault Zoe cost me £12k (2 years old). Range 185 miles in summer, 160 in winter. It depreciates pretty slowly so the current value is £11k after 2 years of ownership. £500 a year.
It's been great. The main reason I use it (in our local urban drives, which after all are by far the most common trips) is because of tailpipe emissions. I want to limit my contribution to the poor urban air quality that kills thousands every year. I drive our big diesel car on longer rural journeys and holidays.
The trouble at the moment is that the cost of charging the Zoe at home is actually higher per mile than the cost to fill the diesel, such is the odd state of the markets for diesel and petrol (rapid recent price drops) and domestic electricity (continued historically high costs). That's market failure and is no doubt slowing down EV adoption.
On that last point, remember that petrol and diesel have a lot of duty on them already.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
...Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
There's a fairly clear motive in the US, where car dealers make big money from the existing system, and are generous funders of Republican politicians. They absolutely loathe Tesla, since it has bypassed them completely.
Tesla. Bought online. Delivered at a showroom where the staff don't sell cars (genuinely - if you say "I want to order one" they will go online for you and assist you buying one online). With no servicing requirements. With brakes that will last a looooong time, tyres which on mine at least are still very healthy after 16k miles, and no consumables needing replacement.
It is a massive threat to existing manufacturers, to dealerships, to part manufacturers, to their entire way of doing business.
But it shouldn't be. Go back to the 70s and cars would dissolve or fall apart in a few years. That doesn't happen any more, yet manufacturers and dealers still exist. Legacy manufacturers still build cars the traditional way (lots of components bolted together), still add complexity which they then need to service. So it isn't EV that threatens, its the new manufacturers.
Tesla make so much money because they build cars in a completely different way. Other new entrants are doing the same, and it is that which threatens the likes of Mercedes. My Tesla Model Y was the best selling car globally in Q1. It is the new Model T Ford - revolutionising the industry. A threat if you don't want change.
One thing that worries me about EVs is what happens if you are in a bump? Is the battery at risk and, if so, is replacing it going to be 5 figure expensive? What does that do for the insurance premiums? Genuinely curious.
Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.
Good morning
Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive
I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.
Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg
My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax
Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change
I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
EVs don't work for everyone. But on your trips to Lossie where you make 3 or 4 stops? An EV would charge whilst you did so. Depends on which generation of 5-series you have, but its hardly in a class of its own - Audi and Mercedes as starters for 10 offer similar vehicles with similar interiors.
Then we have the drivetrain point. Your car either has a manual box or a ZF 8-speed auto. Manual boxes are something out of the ark (though I know they can be pleasing to play with), the ZF box is pretty much industry leading. But neither are anything compared to electric transmission. Once you've had an electric motor instead of a gearbox, any cog shifting feels as backwards as it is.
So lets take a real world example - traffic. I have two recent example on my trip through England last week. Stuck in a big queue on the edge of cities. In a manual I would be endlessly having to blend out the clutch. In an automatic there is less work, but with either on your 4 pot diesel you're belching filth into the environment where people live and work.
Whereas I sat there. Literally. The car driving itself. Steering, acceleration, braking. No input from me. Whilst not spewing filth out into people's lungs. Its *easier* to drive an EV.
None of which really addreses Big G's point (and mine which I made the other day). It takes me 8 hours to drive to Aberdeen on a lot less than a single tank of diesel. How long would it take me to do that drive in an EV? HOw long would I currently have to be sat wasting time at a servoce station whilst thecr is chartged? Even if I can actually get to a charger.
For anyone regularly travelling long distances with time constraints EVs are impractical at present. I don't want them to be but they are. And of course my last ICE vehicle cost me £500 second hand. Not seeing any viable comparisons in the EV market any time soon.
It is unreasonable to expect to be able to transition to a net zero economy while retaining every single aspect of our current unsustainable way of living. Some things may be lost, such as the ability to be anywhere in the country within a short amount of time. Businesses and individuals will adapt to cope with this.
So the great master plan is to reduce freedom and choice for millions of people.
Be interesting to see a government have the courage of their convictions and actually be honest about that.
Don't be silly. Of course nobody wants to reduce anyone's freedom and choice. But is frankly ridiculously entitled to assume that everything can carry on exactly as now, and I do indeed wish that governments would be honest about that. If we are to achieve our goal of a sustainable civilisation, then things need to change, some for the better and, yes, some for the worse. The technology is about mitigating the adverse effects as far as possible.
The visions of the 'sustainable' civilisation we have been presented with so far are the rich do what they want and the rest of us do as we are told.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
I'd rather walk from Aberdeen to Dartford carrying an unwashed and naked Therese Coffey on my back than give Musk 1p.
I'd rather walk from Aberdeen to Dartford carrying an unwashed and naked Therese Coffey on my back than give Musk 1p. Dura_Ace
So you are quite happy to bid the price of oil that benefits theocratic dictatorships which jail women for 45 years who post on social media? Alternatively you could support someone who lost 10% of their net worth ending corporate censorship of social media.
Never get into a discussion with Morris Dancer. The combination of your two shitty but different quoting styles would completely do everyone's head in.
Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.
Good morning
Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive
I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.
Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg
My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax
Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change
I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
EVs don't work for everyone. But on your trips to Lossie where you make 3 or 4 stops? An EV would charge whilst you did so. Depends on which generation of 5-series you have, but its hardly in a class of its own - Audi and Mercedes as starters for 10 offer similar vehicles with similar interiors.
Then we have the drivetrain point. Your car either has a manual box or a ZF 8-speed auto. Manual boxes are something out of the ark (though I know they can be pleasing to play with), the ZF box is pretty much industry leading. But neither are anything compared to electric transmission. Once you've had an electric motor instead of a gearbox, any cog shifting feels as backwards as it is.
So lets take a real world example - traffic. I have two recent example on my trip through England last week. Stuck in a big queue on the edge of cities. In a manual I would be endlessly having to blend out the clutch. In an automatic there is less work, but with either on your 4 pot diesel you're belching filth into the environment where people live and work.
Whereas I sat there. Literally. The car driving itself. Steering, acceleration, braking. No input from me. Whilst not spewing filth out into people's lungs. Its *easier* to drive an EV.
None of which really addreses Big G's point (and mine which I made the other day). It takes me 8 hours to drive to Aberdeen on a lot less than a single tank of diesel. How long would it take me to do that drive in an EV? HOw long would I currently have to be sat wasting time at a servoce station whilst thecr is chartged? Even if I can actually get to a charger.
For anyone regularly travelling long distances with time constraints EVs are impractical at present. I don't want them to be but they are. And of course my last ICE vehicle cost me £500 second hand. Not seeing any viable comparisons in the EV market any time soon.
It is unreasonable to expect to be able to transition to a net zero economy while retaining every single aspect of our current unsustainable way of living. Some things may be lost, such as the ability to be anywhere in the country within a short amount of time. Businesses and individuals will adapt to cope with this.
So the great master plan is to reduce freedom and choice for millions of people.
Be interesting to see a government have the courage of their convictions and actually be honest about that.
Don't be silly. Of course nobody wants to reduce anyone's freedom and choice. But is frankly ridiculously entitled to assume that everything can carry on exactly as now, and I do indeed wish that governments would be honest about that. If we are to achieve our goal of a sustainable civilisation, then things need to change, some for the better and, yes, some for the worse. The technology is about mitigating the adverse effects as far as possible.
The vusions of the 'sustainable' civilisation we have been presented with so far are the rich do what they want and the rest of us do as we are told.
My Renault Zoe cost me £12k (2 years old). Range 185 miles in summer, 160 in winter. It depreciates pretty slowly so the current value is £11k after 2 years of ownership. £500 a year.
It's been great. The main reason I use it (in our local urban drives, which after all are by far the most common trips) is because of tailpipe emissions. I want to limit my contribution to the poor urban air quality that kills thousands every year. I drive our big diesel car on longer rural journeys and holidays.
The trouble at the moment is that the cost of charging the Zoe at home is actually higher per mile than the cost to fill the diesel, such is the odd state of the markets for diesel and petrol (rapid recent price drops) and domestic electricity (continued historically high costs). That's market failure and is no doubt slowing down EV adoption.
The price fall in diesel is quite remarkable. 132.9p compared to 133.9 for petrol (Costco, your local supermarket will still be a bit more). Unremarked in the news as good news always is though...
Diesel may well stick around longer than unleaded though being the favoured fuel of commercial vehicles where EV is less advanced than for residential use.
Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.
Good morning
Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive
I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.
Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg
My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax
Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change
I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
EVs don't work for everyone. But on your trips to Lossie where you make 3 or 4 stops? An EV would charge whilst you did so. Depends on which generation of 5-series you have, but its hardly in a class of its own - Audi and Mercedes as starters for 10 offer similar vehicles with similar interiors.
Then we have the drivetrain point. Your car either has a manual box or a ZF 8-speed auto. Manual boxes are something out of the ark (though I know they can be pleasing to play with), the ZF box is pretty much industry leading. But neither are anything compared to electric transmission. Once you've had an electric motor instead of a gearbox, any cog shifting feels as backwards as it is.
So lets take a real world example - traffic. I have two recent example on my trip through England last week. Stuck in a big queue on the edge of cities. In a manual I would be endlessly having to blend out the clutch. In an automatic there is less work, but with either on your 4 pot diesel you're belching filth into the environment where people live and work.
Whereas I sat there. Literally. The car driving itself. Steering, acceleration, braking. No input from me. Whilst not spewing filth out into people's lungs. Its *easier* to drive an EV.
None of which really addreses Big G's point (and mine which I made the other day). It takes me 8 hours to drive to Aberdeen on a lot less than a single tank of diesel. How long would it take me to do that drive in an EV? HOw long would I currently have to be sat wasting time at a servoce station whilst thecr is chartged? Even if I can actually get to a charger.
For anyone regularly travelling long distances with time constraints EVs are impractical at present. I don't want them to be but they are. And of course my last ICE vehicle cost me £500 second hand. Not seeing any viable comparisons in the EV market any time soon.
I literally make money on YouTube doing videos about this exact thing. Your 8 hour trip - how many stops? Most people would have 2 stops, maybe 3. Toilet, a snack, in the shop - so perhaps 20 minutes per stop? Before you claim to do it non-stop, or make 1 5-minute stop half way and that's all, again I say "most people". There is a reason why motorway service areas are so busy - most people make stops.
So in your 20 minute stop, plug your car in, add another 150+ miles of range, and then carry on. If you only charge when you were stopping anyway, the time added to your journey for charging is zero. That is my experience of half a dozen now trips from north of Aberdeen down to Sheffield / Liverpool / Essex etc. The number of times I have queued to charge is zero.
I've even done a direct comparison of the same Aberdeenshire to Dartford trip in my current Tesla Model Y vs the previous Outlander PHEV. Tesla was 20 minutes faster, and £50 cheaper. A real world example.
The size of your tank or the range it offers is irrelevant in real world usage. Most people's range is how far their bladder lasts, or their stomach needs a snack, or they need a break because want to get out and stretch their legs. They aren't driving 600 miles of range without a stop.
1 stop or none. I detest travelling but it is a necessity so I get it done as quickly as possible. And to be honest the places to stop at are not the sort you want to hang around for any longer than it takes to have a pee and grab a coffee.
1.They are really very expensive. 2. Their range is not good. 3. Charging infrastructure is patchy and unreliable
Until these 3 change I will not be buying one. For very local journeys we walk or bike. There are no buses. The trains have become unreliable since the strikes. Cars are essential. But EV's are as yet wholly impractical.
I think this is unreasonably reductive & “wholly impractical” a massive overstatement.
Plenty of people commute less than fifty miles to work. Which means that the round trip is easily within every EV currently on sale (and most second hand ones, except early Leafs I imagine). If you can charge overnight, then this model of usage can work out perfectly well.
EVs do not have to be a perfect replacement for ICE cars to replace them - they just have to be good enough that a buyer is happy to put up with the downsides in order to get the upside. That’s a calculation which differs between people.
A relative bought a second hand Leaf as a second car. It’s range is terrible! But it can happily drive to town / school / any kind of local trip and the running costs are extremely low. What’s not to like?
Mr. Tyndall, I hardly ever travel, but even so it seems bizarre, selfish, and socially segregating that some are so keen to try and price the poor out of flying, while allowing the wealthy to pay a sin tax and live as they have done before.
I forget who made the comparison, but medieval indulgences do spring to mind.
Stepping back from the detailed debates for a minute, can I ask a basic question - if we had just invented personal cars as a mass market technology, would we be promoting electricity or fossil fuels?
Most of the arguments against EVs stack a load of weights on that side of the equation and pretend there are none on the fossil side. On this thread we have had various weights stacked onto the EV side - a few examples: My diesel is ULEZ compliant so it doesn't pollute My car does 600 miles so how much longer would you take stopping in an EV Your EV battery will fail and need to be replaced
These are posted as zero-sum - all the weight on the EV side, nothing on the fossil side. That isn't reality.
Lets take range. We know that most people's car usage suits EVs. Hard data proves that. We also know that most people do not drive 600 miles non-stop, and the few who try get shouted at by the authorities trying to reduce the number accidents caused by tired drivers.
So if most people's normal use is inside EV battery range and you can charge at home, then why promote fossil as the answer? If most people have a human charging stop every couple of hours of driving, then why promote fossil as the answer?
The current EV market and infrastructure in the UK could not fulfil both of the points I have just looked at. Too many people can't charge at home, mass installation of simple chargers in car parks would be required. But that *could* be done. Nor does the current price of EVs and the increasingly bonkers price charged by many networks for electricity make it viable for people on a budget. But it *could* be.
Most of the tropes given against EVs - many on this thread - just aren't true for most people. But because the technology is old* people don't know any better. And the crapola way we have implemented re-electrification* has rightly put some people off.
*EVs came first. Go back to the start of the 20th century and the new fangled motor car was more likely to be EV than not. Ford's Model T and the might of Big Oil put a stop to that.
Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.
Good morning
Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive
I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.
Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg
My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax
Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change
I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
EVs don't work for everyone. But on your trips to Lossie where you make 3 or 4 stops? An EV would charge whilst you did so. Depends on which generation of 5-series you have, but its hardly in a class of its own - Audi and Mercedes as starters for 10 offer similar vehicles with similar interiors.
Then we have the drivetrain point. Your car either has a manual box or a ZF 8-speed auto. Manual boxes are something out of the ark (though I know they can be pleasing to play with), the ZF box is pretty much industry leading. But neither are anything compared to electric transmission. Once you've had an electric motor instead of a gearbox, any cog shifting feels as backwards as it is.
So lets take a real world example - traffic. I have two recent example on my trip through England last week. Stuck in a big queue on the edge of cities. In a manual I would be endlessly having to blend out the clutch. In an automatic there is less work, but with either on your 4 pot diesel you're belching filth into the environment where people live and work.
Whereas I sat there. Literally. The car driving itself. Steering, acceleration, braking. No input from me. Whilst not spewing filth out into people's lungs. Its *easier* to drive an EV.
None of which really addreses Big G's point (and mine which I made the other day). It takes me 8 hours to drive to Aberdeen on a lot less than a single tank of diesel. How long would it take me to do that drive in an EV? HOw long would I currently have to be sat wasting time at a servoce station whilst thecr is chartged? Even if I can actually get to a charger.
For anyone regularly travelling long distances with time constraints EVs are impractical at present. I don't want them to be but they are. And of course my last ICE vehicle cost me £500 second hand. Not seeing any viable comparisons in the EV market any time soon.
It is unreasonable to expect to be able to transition to a net zero economy while retaining every single aspect of our current unsustainable way of living. Some things may be lost, such as the ability to be anywhere in the country within a short amount of time. Businesses and individuals will adapt to cope with this.
So the great master plan is to reduce freedom and choice for millions of people.
Be interesting to see a government have the courage of their convictions and actually be honest about that.
Don't be silly. Of course nobody wants to reduce anyone's freedom and choice. But is frankly ridiculously entitled to assume that everything can carry on exactly as now, and I do indeed wish that governments would be honest about that. If we are to achieve our goal of a sustainable civilisation, then things need to change, some for the better and, yes, some for the worse. The technology is about mitigating the adverse effects as far as possible.
The vusions of the 'sustainable' civilisation we have been presented with so far are the rich do what they want and the rest of us do as we are told.
I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.
More recently, I bought a Rivian.
EVs are great if:
(a) you have somewhere to charge it at home (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips
If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.
There's another requirement: (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
The cost differential is closing every day.
The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.
People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
I also expect the batteries to continue to improve in capacity (equivalent to weight in that you can use smaller ones) charging time and cost.
One of the most interesting EVs in my view is the Dacia Spring. It's very much a version 1 model and is mediocre in most respects, but I think think its design approach is the way forward.
Most EVs are over-engineered. To get more range manufacturers add bigger batteries, which add weight and massively increase cost.
The starting point for the Spring is the smallest viable battery from which the designers work out an.acceptable tradeoff of range, performance and internal space. Compared with ICE the smaller motor and greater torque of an electric car allow a smaller vehicle and less overall power for a similar experience.
The small battery means the Spring weighs less and costs about £18 000, just a few thousand more than the equivalent ICE before subsidies. It can be charged overnight on a standard 13A plug.
An EV should be able to offer packaging which makes for preposterous amounts of space for the size of the car. Should. Almost all are built by legacy carmakers in existing factories, often on the same production line as mechanical cars.
Because their production line is set up to build and insert an engine, so many end up with a motor / invertor stack in place of the engine, which restricts the packaging. So many EVs retain a big bonnet full of stuff, which cuts down on internal space. And if its BMW / Audi etc they then add insult to injury by adding a gopping great grill on the front which looks absurd and serves no purpose.
If Dacia are starting with a blank sheet of paper, and can manufacture a true EV rather than an EV conversion of an existing platform, it could be a game changer.
What EVs are really good at is pottering around the suburbs at speeds up to 50mph. Which is 90% of journeys. (Invented figure) If that's all they dId, you could easily manage with a small battery, light vehicle, low power motor, fast recharge and low cost. All the cost and recharging issues are incurred dealing with the remaining 10% of journeys. It makes sense I think to optimise for the 90% while making the remaining 10% just about acceptable. Won't work for everyone, but most people will be happy.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
Which illustrates the ludicrous difference between the Tesla ecosystem and the rest.
With Tesla, the big screen in the car shows you the way to the charger on your planned route, you arrive and plug in. That’s it.
Mr. Tyndall, I hardly ever travel, but even so it seems bizarre, selfish, and socially segregating that some are so keen to try and price the poor out of flying, while allowing the wealthy to pay a sin tax and live as they have done before.
I forget who made the comparison, but medieval indulgences do spring to mind.
It's called capitalism. Yes, it's crap, but it works better than the alternatives.
1.They are really very expensive. 2. Their range is not good. 3. Charging infrastructure is patchy and unreliable
Until these 3 change I will not be buying one. For very local journeys we walk or bike. There are no buses. The trains have become unreliable since the strikes. Cars are essential. But EV's are as yet wholly impractical.
I think this is unreasonably reductive & “wholly impractical” a massive overstatement.
Plenty of people commute less than fifty miles to work. Which means that the round trip is easily within every EV currently on sale (and most second hand ones, except early Leafs I imagine). If you can charge overnight, then this model of usage can work out perfectly well.
EVs do not have to be a perfect replacement for ICE cars to replace them - they just have to be good enough that a buyer is happy to put up with the downsides in order to get the upside. That’s a calculation which differs between people.
A relative bought a second hand Leaf as a second car. It’s range is terrible! But it can happily drive to town / school / any kind of local trip and the running costs are extremely low. What’s not to like?
BiB - ultimately, isn't this why the ban on ICEs is needed? We'll be waiting an eternity for EVs to replace ICEs without state intervention.
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
Which illustrates the ludicrous difference between the Tesla ecosystem and the rest.
With Tesla, the big screen in the car shows you the way to the charger on your planned route, you arrive and plug in. That’s it.
It seems insane to me that the charging networks haven’t specified a secure way for the car to exchange payment details directly with the charger. The charger has a network connection! It can talk to home base & authorise your car! Why are charging networks making everyone faff about with Apps & forcing you to have a mobile signal?!
My recent experience of hiring an EV for two days has really put me off - although I remain emotionally committed to the concept. There's too much detail to bore everyone with here (ask my family!) but here are a few points to consider.
1) A technological system always needs another technological system to enable it to work. With EVs, that's not just charging points - you need a functioning mobile phone system, and a functioning on-line banking system. If either of those is down, you are stuck in a Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25, in the rain, at midnight.
2) Some charging points could not recognise my phone's existence, even though I was standing right next to the wretched thing.
3) I don't want a myriad of meaningful lifetime relationships with a load of different suppliers. I want a cheap and sordid commercial transaction when I re-fuel - I do not want to download yet another app, with another password, e-mail, gang sign, haiku, 17 digit prime number etc etc etc. Not nearly enough charging points allow credit card only transactions.
4) I have poor eyesight. I cannot see the screen on my mobile phone well enough in bright daylight to navigate the information required by the websites (although, to be fair, I do have a very small phone.)
5) I want to know how much I have paid for my fuel. One of the simple joys of motoring is complaining about the price paid for petrol, and having one's spouse point out how much cheaper it would have been if one had re-fuelled when she first suggested it. With EVs, I don't know how much I have paid until I get my credit card bill.
On the positive side, one does meet a better class of motorist with EVs - many hours stood chatting to other motorists whilst queueing for the pump, getting help with downloading the apps, filling in the details required etc.
Also, a big shout-out to the young lady at Morrison's car park somewhere off the M25 who kindly used her phone and her credit card to re-fuel my car for me! I insisted that she sent me her bank details so that I could repay her a few days later, but it really shouldn't have come to that.
This is the problem with public charging! But this isn't how it works with Tesla. To take your points one at a time:
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal. 2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail. 3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up 4. No small screen staring needed 5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
Who needs Tesla to spend money on advertising when you'll do it for free?
It’s a statement of fact that Tesla’s charging network is a huge selling point for Tesla vehicles over other EVs.
Other car manufacturers completely failed to understand this, or else refused to put the capital in to build out an equivalent charging network themselves & the result is that people are buying Tesla over (say) Porsches because of the charging network.
Other manufacturers have clubbed together to offer discounted charging rates at some networks. "Why be stuck only on Tesla superchargers when our car charges everywhere?"
The problem is what the everywhere network looks like. Someone like Ionity is great - ludicrously expensive without the mfr discount but generally good. But they're only in certain locations, and pretty much the rest of the network is pants.
The price is less of an issue than whether the charger is actually working, and the speed it charges at.
Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.
Good morning
Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive
I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.
Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg
My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax
Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change
I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
EVs don't work for everyone. But on your trips to Lossie where you make 3 or 4 stops? An EV would charge whilst you did so. Depends on which generation of 5-series you have, but its hardly in a class of its own - Audi and Mercedes as starters for 10 offer similar vehicles with similar interiors.
Then we have the drivetrain point. Your car either has a manual box or a ZF 8-speed auto. Manual boxes are something out of the ark (though I know they can be pleasing to play with), the ZF box is pretty much industry leading. But neither are anything compared to electric transmission. Once you've had an electric motor instead of a gearbox, any cog shifting feels as backwards as it is.
So lets take a real world example - traffic. I have two recent example on my trip through England last week. Stuck in a big queue on the edge of cities. In a manual I would be endlessly having to blend out the clutch. In an automatic there is less work, but with either on your 4 pot diesel you're belching filth into the environment where people live and work.
Whereas I sat there. Literally. The car driving itself. Steering, acceleration, braking. No input from me. Whilst not spewing filth out into people's lungs. Its *easier* to drive an EV.
None of which really addreses Big G's point (and mine which I made the other day). It takes me 8 hours to drive to Aberdeen on a lot less than a single tank of diesel. How long would it take me to do that drive in an EV? HOw long would I currently have to be sat wasting time at a servoce station whilst thecr is chartged? Even if I can actually get to a charger.
For anyone regularly travelling long distances with time constraints EVs are impractical at present. I don't want them to be but they are. And of course my last ICE vehicle cost me £500 second hand. Not seeing any viable comparisons in the EV market any time soon.
I literally make money on YouTube doing videos about this exact thing. Your 8 hour trip - how many stops? Most people would have 2 stops, maybe 3. Toilet, a snack, in the shop - so perhaps 20 minutes per stop? Before you claim to do it non-stop, or make 1 5-minute stop half way and that's all, again I say "most people". There is a reason why motorway service areas are so busy - most people make stops.
So in your 20 minute stop, plug your car in, add another 150+ miles of range, and then carry on. If you only charge when you were stopping anyway, the time added to your journey for charging is zero. That is my experience of half a dozen now trips from north of Aberdeen down to Sheffield / Liverpool / Essex etc. The number of times I have queued to charge is zero.
I've even done a direct comparison of the same Aberdeenshire to Dartford trip in my current Tesla Model Y vs the previous Outlander PHEV. Tesla was 20 minutes faster, and £50 cheaper. A real world example.
The size of your tank or the range it offers is irrelevant in real world usage. Most people's range is how far their bladder lasts, or their stomach needs a snack, or they need a break because want to get out and stretch their legs. They aren't driving 600 miles of range without a stop.
Before I got stuck at home, I regularly (say 6+ times a year, most often in winter) did the trip north from the Flatlands. We'd have a driver swap somewhere in England, a short stop at Stirling and then a refuel either in Aviemore or Ullapool if heading for the far north. Basically, just point and go.
We usually had piles of outdoor junk, sometimes including bikes, which often went in the car to save on air resistance (about £20 in extra drag if you have them on the roof or a towbar).
My car was (and still is) a zero tax (ha!) diesel estate which gets about 60mpg and can usually do more than 500 miles on a tank.
All current EV cars would be functionally worse and would probably cost at least 4 times as much. A Tesla does not really have the boot space.
Now you could argue that because of climate change, we are all going to have to make sacrifices. But on the other hand I haven't flown anywhere since 2005, as this was what we did instead.
One solution would be to have two cars, one for long journeys and a small electric one for buzzing about. But we really don't do the short miles to make that worthwhile. I'm happy to cycle or walk locally most of the time and I'm not currently commuting (which is the ideal use case for an electric car).
For mass adoption, electric has to be functionally better, not just "morally". This time is maybe not far off, but they don't work for everyone, particularly those who can't afford shiny shiny. At least not yet.
On EVs, it looks to me like a no-brainer if a) you're reasonably well off, and b) you can charge it at home.
However, an awful lot of us who are green-sympathetic, and vote Labour/Green, live in cities. And we live in houses/flats that don't have garages or driveways. We park on the street, often with difficulty as demand is very high - only occasionally do I get to park outside my house. We are nowhere near putting in the infrastructure to make EVs an easy option. Where I live, on-street chargers are beginning to emerge, slowly, but of course that reduces the number of parking spots for those without EVs - and this will, presumably, accelerate. It's a big dilemma, with no easy solutions, but EVs for many city dwellers aren't a sensible option yet.
Honestly, this is where the policy of an entire move to electric vehicles I think misses the point about how we ought to get around, as a society. I would much, much, much rather see effective mass transit and proper prioritising of active travel in urban areas.
We'll always need motor vehicles for a broad range of reasons, but I was struck this morning, as I often am, when I cycled into Manchester how many cars in the general commute crawl have a single (frustrated) person in. This is not an efficient way of getting people to and from work (and as an aside, I really do think the JRM/Telegraph anti-WFH crusaders really ought to look at how unpleasant the commute is to understand the appeal, for many, of not travelling to and from an office every day).
I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.
More recently, I bought a Rivian.
EVs are great if:
(a) you have somewhere to charge it at home (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips
If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.
There's another requirement: (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
The cost differential is closing every day.
The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.
People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
I also expect the batteries to continue to improve in capacity (equivalent to weight in that you can use smaller ones) charging time and cost.
One of the most interesting EVs in my view is the Dacia Spring. It's very much a version 1 model and is mediocre in most respects, but I think think its design approach is the way forward.
Most EVs are over-engineered. To get more range manufacturers add bigger batteries, which add weight and massively increase cost.
The starting point for the Spring is the smallest viable battery from which the designers work out an.acceptable tradeoff of range, performance and internal space. Compared with ICE the smaller motor and greater torque of an electric car allow a smaller vehicle and less overall power for a similar experience.
The small battery means the Spring weighs less and costs about £18 000, just a few thousand more than the equivalent ICE before subsidies. It can be charged overnight on a standard 13A plug.
An EV should be able to offer packaging which makes for preposterous amounts of space for the size of the car. Should. Almost all are built by legacy carmakers in existing factories, often on the same production line as mechanical cars.
Because their production line is set up to build and insert an engine, so many end up with a motor / invertor stack in place of the engine, which restricts the packaging. So many EVs retain a big bonnet full of stuff, which cuts down on internal space. And if its BMW / Audi etc they then add insult to injury by adding a gopping great grill on the front which looks absurd and serves no purpose.
If Dacia are starting with a blank sheet of paper, and can manufacture a true EV rather than an EV conversion of an existing platform, it could be a game changer.
What EVs are really good at is pottering around the suburbs at speeds up to 50mph. Which is 90% of journeys. (Invented figure) If that's all they dId, you could easily manage with a small battery, light vehicle, low power motor, fast recharge and low cost. All the cost and recharging issues are incurred dealing with the remaining 10% of journeys. It makes sense I think to optimise for the 90% while making the remaining 10% just about acceptable. Won't work for everyone, but most people will be happy.
That's almost exactly the case for me. The Leaf is perfectly suited to the 90% pottering, while the 10% long drives are still doable but require a little more planning. I was initially using the missus's diesel for the long drives but am now becoming more adept at doing them in the Leaf.
The transition to electric vehicles can't come soon enough for one key reason: noise. Not all traffic noise is engine noise but it's the most significant part. The gradual end of revving, roaring, popping noise pollution will make every part of this country better in ways that I don't think many people really give credit for.
It'll take a long time for it to filter down through the second hand market, and I expect there will be "classics" knocking around for decades, but anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a main road, which is basically everyone, will gradually start to live better, more relaxing lives.
Until you can't get anywhere because your EV car has run out of power and there is no charging point nearby. Not that relaxing.
Look at what Mike said. 30 minutes or more at a charging station. We have been told for ages that the technology is getting "better" but the simple fact is that petrol cars are still most effective.
I spend far less time at charging stations than you do, because I charge my car at home once a week. Those five or ten minutes add up over the year, and I'm saving time and money.
Now, is that true of everyone? No.
But for a substantial minority of people, EVs are the better option today. And every day the size of that minority increases.
Perhaps in the US. I would question that in the UK.
At the end of the day, there is an implicit class / socio-economic issue here. If you are fairly well-off you will be fine (you will have a drive, a decent car, can afford the electricity etc). If you are poor and rely on your car for essentials, you are screwed.
Oh, I agree, for now they're not for everyone.
But the number of people who will benefit from going EV is growing all the time. You can't buck the market.
Again, I would question that.
The car manufacturers are not showing much inclination to develop mass market EV models. Instead, what they have done - and some such as BMW and Mercedes have been explicit about this - is to raise prices structurally. Wealthier people can afford this, poorer people can't.
I go back to the point that there is an implicit class / socio-economic point thing here. The unstated aim of many who are pushing the EV agenda is to force people - mainly the poorer types - onto public transport by pricing them out of the market when it comes to buying and maintaining a car. There is a reason why so many wealthy middle-class individuals are perfectly happy with pushing an EV agenda because they can afford the price as well as knowing others cannot. You see the same dynamic with such types calling for a reduction in air flights - they are not thinking about their trips to Tuscany or Provence, they are thinking those awful plebs who go on package holidays to cheap destinations.
...Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
There's a fairly clear motive in the US, where car dealers make big money from the existing system, and are generous funders of Republican politicians. They absolutely loathe Tesla, since it has bypassed them completely.
Tesla also doesn't money on advertising, which doesn't endear them to the media.
I suspect they'll go on a similar journey to Amazon with advertising; Captain Jeff Penisrocket didn't 'believe' in it for a long time, but realised after a while that both brand and activation advertising are important for growth in the long term, especially in a market that becomes increasingly competitive.
As the unquestioned brand leader in their vertical Tesla didn't really need to do brand ads - they were selling everything they made and there was a lot of excitement and fanboyishness about them. As a brand it has undeniably made electric cars desirable and cool (remember that the market leader before was the two-steps-from-a-milk-float Nissan Leaf).
However, their brand is struggling as it becomes less cool - Musky is divisive (to be generous) and remains closely associated with Tesla's image. Rumours around reliability, NDAs and whatnot have not helped. The pricing strategy has been sclerotic and reduced the brand's prestige, as (maybe more arguably) have the bland aesthetics of the Model 3.
That is all happening to Tesla's brand regardless of the market - BUT, the market (especially German and Korean manufacturers) has itself now caught up with Tesla, giving consumers more choice and also offering more market niches than Tesla's limited range. Now, against a backdrop of extraordinary sector growth that won't hurt Tesla much in the short term, but in the long run they are in severe danger of being eclipsed, become both less cool and less competitive.
Brand advertising will be crucial to whether they survive or not. They are no longer a market disrupter. If they want sustained growth and sales, they need to remain appealing in a market that will quickly outgun them in terms of brand loyalty and market infrastructure.
1.They are really very expensive. 2. Their range is not good. 3. Charging infrastructure is patchy and unreliable
Until these 3 change I will not be buying one. For very local journeys we walk or bike. There are no buses. The trains have become unreliable since the strikes. Cars are essential. But EV's are as yet wholly impractical.
I think this is unreasonably reductive & “wholly impractical” a massive overstatement.
Plenty of people commute less than fifty miles to work. Which means that the round trip is easily within every EV currently on sale (and most second hand ones, except early Leafs I imagine). If you can charge overnight, then this model of usage can work out perfectly well.
EVs do not have to be a perfect replacement for ICE cars to replace them - they just have to be good enough that a buyer is happy to put up with the downsides in order to get the upside. That’s a calculation which differs between people.
A relative bought a second hand Leaf as a second car. It’s range is terrible! But it can happily drive to town / school / any kind of local trip and the running costs are extremely low. What’s not to like?
As I hope was obvious from my comment they are wholly impractical in the area where I live.
Elsewhere they may be suitable. But public policy should be designed to make such a change practical and cost effective for everyone not the lucky few. I see no signs of that happening.
My Renault Zoe cost me £12k (2 years old). Range 185 miles in summer, 160 in winter. It depreciates pretty slowly so the current value is £11k after 2 years of ownership. £500 a year.
It's been great. The main reason I use it (in our local urban drives, which after all are by far the most common trips) is because of tailpipe emissions. I want to limit my contribution to the poor urban air quality that kills thousands every year. I drive our big diesel car on longer rural journeys and holidays.
The trouble at the moment is that the cost of charging the Zoe at home is actually higher per mile than the cost to fill the diesel, such is the odd state of the markets for diesel and petrol (rapid recent price drops) and domestic electricity (continued historically high costs). That's market failure and is no doubt slowing down EV adoption.
The price fall in diesel is quite remarkable. 132.9p compared to 133.9 for petrol (Costco, your local supermarket will still be a bit more). Unremarked in the news as good news always is though...
Diesel may well stick around longer than unleaded though being the favoured fuel of commercial vehicles where EV is less advanced than for residential use.
And of course the government slashed fuel duty recently when the prices soared, but won't be raising it back up any time soon because they're scared to. The fuel duty escalator lingers on in treasury forecasts every year but always gets cancelled as a matter of course, and then one-off drops always become permanent.
The government could look at a duty regime that ensured less volatility in prices. The higher the price above a certain threshold, the lower the duty. And vice versa for lower prices. Currently the tax regime is very pro-cyclical, the treasury earns loads more when prices are high because duty is fixed but VAT on fuel is a percentage of value. A ratchet type regime of the sort I'm suggesting would keep prices more stable while also reducing volatility of government receipts.
The solution? Apparently to get lots of other AI bots involved to correct each other relentlessly. Sounds like PB. Are you all sure we are not AI ourselves?
The solution? Apparently to get lots of other AI bots involved to correct each other relentlessly. Sounds like PB. Are you all sure we are not AI ourselves?
Comments
Now the third one is a matter of time. Over time the cost of a new electric vehicle is closing on the cost of a new petrol one. Over an even longer period of time, the cost of second hand markets should adjust accordingly. But we can't rush time.
The second one is not significant for most people in this country and so long as fast chargers become widespread, if you are driving 300 miles in a day then taking a half hour break at some point is a matter of safety anyway.
The first one though is humongous flashing red alarms and klaxons. I'm fortunate, I have a new-build with a driveway and with an electric car charger built-in as standard as part of the new build. Millions of other people are not so fortunate, and we should not take that for granted. And the problem I see is that decision makers are probably those disproportionately more likely to have driveways so take it for granted.
Houses are still being built in Mews/Terraces without driveways, that is ridiculous in this day and age and given what we know is coming. It should be standard that every new home, where possible, has an off-road driveway and charger port built in as standard. But tackling new homes alone won't solve the issue, we need a solution for existing homes too - and the ones suggested so far including retrofitting street lighting etc seem to be laughably inept and not a serious solution.
Be interesting to see a government have the courage of their convictions and actually be honest about that.
I think the light has come on about 3 times in those 28 years.
I always fill up when I have just less than a quarter in.
Am I a weirdo overcautious?
If a multicar household can charge one car one day, and the other car another day, then that's OK too for most families. Simply being able to charge or not is the primary concern, not many people will be returning home with a depleted battery every single day.
However, on your question, what I would like to see that - if we are serious about this - we introduce subsidies, pricing policies etc that are graduated by wealth. Put simply, the rich should - seriously - help to subsidise the poor in their transition to a EV future. If that means an extra 10% on inheritance tax of wealthier people, then surely that is an acceptable enough price to help save the planet?
Because their production line is set up to build and insert an engine, so many end up with a motor / invertor stack in place of the engine, which restricts the packaging. So many EVs retain a big bonnet full of stuff, which cuts down on internal space. And if its BMW / Audi etc they then add insult to injury by adding a gopping great grill on the front which looks absurd and serves no purpose.
If Dacia are starting with a blank sheet of paper, and can manufacture a true EV rather than an EV conversion of an existing platform, it could be a game changer.
Of course as a penurious lawyer you wouldn't have been in that situation
1. Mass adoption of EVs will collapse the price and make them available to all. This is already happening with Stellantis offering small EVs which simply weren't an option even 5 years ago. Prices dropping all the time, so getting cheaper .
2. Premium brand charging more to make them more exclusive. How is that a conspiracy against the poor? Rolex throttle supply of Submariners to keep the price up - yet the masses somehow still own a watch. Same with cars.
3. Reduction of flights to stop the plebs travelling. So that what, they have to stay here and have less holidays? I do know of one political group advocating that working people are feckless scumbags who should do a decent day's work for a change, but it isn't the left.
There is very clearly an anti-EV agenda being pushed relentlessly by the right. Their client media have new stories every day - Teslas queueing for charging, my EV broke down, my nightmare journey took 8 hours etc etc. Despite the fact that their government is the one pushing EVs by putting the 2030 deadline in.
Why attack EVs? Seen as trendy and modern, driven by do-gooders, promoting the environment. So of course you want to attack people driving EVs - we're not one of you.
I'm 55, have owned over 300 cars, done amazingly stupid shit in most of them and have never been in a 6 hour stationary traffic jam or ran out of fuel.
In the vanishingly unlikely event that it does happen you can charge an EV from another EV if it has V2L. (This how the RAC do their 'EV Boost' EV recovery service.)
All new technologies start at the high end of the market, for obvious reasons. The manufacturers couldn't now build enough EVs to supply the whole car market even if they weren't interested in making a profit.
But car manufacturers are spending hundreds of billions over the next of this decade (as will be governments who subsidising the effort) to build new factories to build EVs to replace the ones that now turn out ICE vehicles.
The transition will be awkward for those with the least resources - and you're possibly right that wealthier individuals, who tend on average to have more political influence, don't care much about that. But the response ought to be to press government to address those problems, rather than pretend there's some sort of conspiracy.
Charging: cross-pavement cables are an invitation to vandalism and lawsuits, and that's before we get on to the flat-dwellers.
I currently think that point will be in about 5 years.
Why people pay the early adopter tax and put up with the early adopter hassle is beyond me, but I’m glad they do.
Never had any issues.
So in your 20 minute stop, plug your car in, add another 150+ miles of range, and then carry on. If you only charge when you were stopping anyway, the time added to your journey for charging is zero. That is my experience of half a dozen now trips from north of Aberdeen down to Sheffield / Liverpool / Essex etc. The number of times I have queued to charge is zero.
I've even done a direct comparison of the same Aberdeenshire to Dartford trip in my current Tesla Model Y vs the previous Outlander PHEV. Tesla was 20 minutes faster, and £50 cheaper. A real world example.
The size of your tank or the range it offers is irrelevant in real world usage. Most people's range is how far their bladder lasts, or their stomach needs a snack, or they need a break because want to get out and stretch their legs. They aren't driving 600 miles of range without a stop.
They absolutely loathe Tesla, since it has bypassed them completely.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202306068217976?advertising-location=at_cars&fuel-type=Electric&include-delivery-option=on&postcode=s81 8hz&sort=relevance&year-to=2023&fromsra
Lord knows what the range is though.
Although that's nothing to do with a dislike of Murdoch; more that I'm tight.
1. You plug the car in and it starts charging within seconds. No app. No screen. No need for a phone signal.
2. Tesla chargers handshake with the car electronically in a few seconds. I've never seen that fail.
3. You buy Tesla online which means you create an account and a payment method when you buy the car. That means you already have an account from the moment they hand the car over. Nothing else to set up
4. No small screen staring needed
5. Tesla charger pricing is shown on the car screen before you get there. And is essentially half the price of most comparable non-Tesla chargers
Eventually I think the market will have to be regulated into compliance, as we can't have the current wild west set-up if mass EV adoption is to happen. That offers the prospect of a similar level of simplicity as Tesla already offer - a universal payment system would be a great start.
However, an awful lot of us who are green-sympathetic, and vote Labour/Green, live in cities. And we live in houses/flats that don't have garages or driveways. We park on the street, often with difficulty as demand is very high - only occasionally do I get to park outside my house. We are nowhere near putting in the infrastructure to make EVs an easy option. Where I live, on-street chargers are beginning to emerge, slowly, but of course that reduces the number of parking spots for those without EVs - and this will, presumably, accelerate. It's a big dilemma, with no easy solutions, but EVs for many city dwellers aren't a sensible option yet.
https://www.wired.com/story/review-wuling-hongguang-mini-ev/
There are no really cheap mass market models in the west, as we don't yet produce enough batteries for it to make economic sense for manufacturers to build them (profit margins are, obviously, much lower on cheap cars).
They will come in time, since at some point the supply of batteries will meet, and perhaps even start to exceed the demand.
As EVs become mass market, a much bigger second hand market will also come into existence.
https://www.stoneacre.co.uk/used-cars/renault/zoe-e-tech/iconic/80kw-iconic-r110-50kwh-rapid-charge-5dr-auto-nu71ulm
and https://www.stoneacre.co.uk/used-cars/hyundai/kona-electric/premium/150kw-premium-64kwh-5dr-auto-2020-ak21uwb
the latter one tells me that people are having doubts about buying an electric car...
I was more concerned about it's lasting the trip without mechanical failure than running out of fuel.
It is a massive threat to existing manufacturers, to dealerships, to part manufacturers, to their entire way of doing business.
But it shouldn't be. Go back to the 70s and cars would dissolve or fall apart in a few years. That doesn't happen any more, yet manufacturers and dealers still exist. Legacy manufacturers still build cars the traditional way (lots of components bolted together), still add complexity which they then need to service. So it isn't EV that threatens, its the new manufacturers.
Tesla make so much money because they build cars in a completely different way. Other new entrants are doing the same, and it is that which threatens the likes of Mercedes. My Tesla Model Y was the best selling car globally in Q1. It is the new Model T Ford - revolutionising the industry. A threat if you don't want change.
https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1666364370908246016
Germans are getting their act together.
There's also some talk of the hundred or so mothballed Leopards being brought back into operational condition sooner than planned.
As the unquestioned brand leader in their vertical Tesla didn't really need to do brand ads - they were selling everything they made and there was a lot of excitement and fanboyishness about them. As a brand it has undeniably made electric cars desirable and cool (remember that the market leader before was the two-steps-from-a-milk-float Nissan Leaf).
However, their brand is struggling as it becomes less cool - Musky is divisive (to be generous) and remains closely associated with Tesla's image. Rumours around reliability, NDAs and whatnot have not helped. The pricing strategy has been sclerotic and reduced the brand's prestige, as (maybe more arguably) have the bland aesthetics of the Model 3.
That is all happening to Tesla's brand regardless of the market - BUT, the market (especially German and Korean manufacturers) has itself now caught up with Tesla, giving consumers more choice and also offering more market niches than Tesla's limited range. Now, against a backdrop of extraordinary sector growth that won't hurt Tesla much in the short term, but in the long run they are in severe danger of being eclipsed, become both less cool and less competitive.
Brand advertising will be crucial to whether they survive or not. They are no longer a market disrupter. If they want sustained growth and sales, they need to remain appealing in a market that will quickly outgun them in terms of brand loyalty and market infrastructure.
1.They are really very expensive.
2. Their range is not good.
3. Charging infrastructure is patchy and unreliable
Until these 3 change I will not be buying one. For very local journeys we walk or bike. There are no buses. The trains have become unreliable since the strikes. Cars are essential. But EV's are as yet wholly impractical.
Other car manufacturers completely failed to understand this, or else refused to put the capital in to build out an equivalent charging network themselves & the result is that people are buying Tesla over (say) Porsches because of the charging network.
It's been great. The main reason I use it (in our local urban drives, which after all are by far the most common trips) is because of tailpipe emissions. I want to limit my contribution to the poor urban air quality that kills thousands every year. I drive our big diesel car on longer rural journeys and holidays.
The trouble at the moment is that the cost of charging the Zoe at home is actually higher per mile than the cost to fill the diesel, such is the odd state of the markets for diesel and petrol (rapid recent price drops) and domestic electricity (continued historically high costs). That's market failure and is no doubt slowing down EV adoption.
I'd rather walk from Aberdeen to Dartford carrying an unwashed and naked Therese Coffey on my back than give Musk 1p. Dura_Ace
So you are quite happy to bid the price of oil that benefits theocratic dictatorships which jail women for 45 years who post on social media? Alternatively you could support someone who lost 10% of their net worth ending corporate censorship of social media.
Diesel may well stick around longer than unleaded though being the favoured fuel of commercial vehicles where EV is less advanced than for residential use.
Plenty of people commute less than fifty miles to work. Which means that the round trip is easily within every EV currently on sale (and most second hand ones, except early Leafs I imagine). If you can charge overnight, then this model of usage can work out perfectly well.
EVs do not have to be a perfect replacement for ICE cars to replace them - they just have to be good enough that a buyer is happy to put up with the downsides in order to get the upside. That’s a calculation which differs between people.
A relative bought a second hand Leaf as a second car. It’s range is terrible! But it can happily drive to town / school / any kind of local trip and the running costs are extremely low. What’s not to like?
I forget who made the comparison, but medieval indulgences do spring to mind.
Most of the arguments against EVs stack a load of weights on that side of the equation and pretend there are none on the fossil side. On this thread we have had various weights stacked onto the EV side - a few examples:
My diesel is ULEZ compliant so it doesn't pollute
My car does 600 miles so how much longer would you take stopping in an EV
Your EV battery will fail and need to be replaced
These are posted as zero-sum - all the weight on the EV side, nothing on the fossil side. That isn't reality.
Lets take range. We know that most people's car usage suits EVs. Hard data proves that. We also know that most people do not drive 600 miles non-stop, and the few who try get shouted at by the authorities trying to reduce the number accidents caused by tired drivers.
So if most people's normal use is inside EV battery range and you can charge at home, then why promote fossil as the answer? If most people have a human charging stop every couple of hours of driving, then why promote fossil as the answer?
The current EV market and infrastructure in the UK could not fulfil both of the points I have just looked at. Too many people can't charge at home, mass installation of simple chargers in car parks would be required. But that *could* be done. Nor does the current price of EVs and the increasingly bonkers price charged by many networks for electricity make it viable for people on a budget. But it *could* be.
Most of the tropes given against EVs - many on this thread - just aren't true for most people. But because the technology is old* people don't know any better. And the crapola way we have implemented re-electrification* has rightly put some people off.
*EVs came first. Go back to the start of the 20th century and the new fangled motor car was more likely to be EV than not. Ford's Model T and the might of Big Oil put a stop to that.
With Tesla, the big screen in the car shows you the way to the charger on your planned route, you arrive and plug in. That’s it.
Completely mad.
The problem is what the everywhere network looks like. Someone like Ionity is great - ludicrously expensive without the mfr discount but generally good. But they're only in certain locations, and pretty much the rest of the network is pants.
The price is less of an issue than whether the charger is actually working, and the speed it charges at.
We usually had piles of outdoor junk, sometimes including bikes, which often went in the car to save on air resistance (about £20 in extra drag if you have them on the roof or a towbar).
My car was (and still is) a zero tax (ha!) diesel estate which gets about 60mpg and can usually do more than 500 miles on a tank.
All current EV cars would be functionally worse and would probably cost at least 4 times as much. A Tesla does not really have the boot space.
Now you could argue that because of climate change, we are all going to have to make sacrifices. But on the other hand I haven't flown anywhere since 2005, as this was what we did instead.
One solution would be to have two cars, one for long journeys and a small electric one for buzzing about. But we really don't do the short miles to make that worthwhile. I'm happy to cycle or walk locally most of the time and I'm not currently commuting (which is the ideal use case for an electric car).
For mass adoption, electric has to be functionally better, not just "morally". This time is maybe not far off, but they don't work for everyone, particularly those who can't afford shiny shiny. At least not yet.
We'll always need motor vehicles for a broad range of reasons, but I was struck this morning, as I often am, when I cycled into Manchester how many cars in the general commute crawl have a single (frustrated) person in. This is not an efficient way of getting people to and from work (and as an aside, I really do think the JRM/Telegraph anti-WFH crusaders really ought to look at how unpleasant the commute is to understand the appeal, for many, of not travelling to and from an office every day).
Elsewhere they may be suitable. But public policy should be designed to make such a change practical and cost effective for everyone not the lucky few. I see no signs of that happening.
The government could look at a duty regime that ensured less volatility in prices. The higher the price above a certain threshold, the lower the duty. And vice versa for lower prices. Currently the tax regime is very pro-cyclical, the treasury earns loads more when prices are high because duty is fixed but VAT on fuel is a percentage of value. A ratchet type regime of the sort I'm suggesting would keep prices more stable while also reducing volatility of government receipts.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/05/30/ai-chatbots-chatgpt-bard-trustworthy/?utm_source=tldrai
The solution? Apparently to get lots of other AI bots involved to correct each other relentlessly. Sounds like PB. Are you all sure we are not AI ourselves?