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Electric cars – are they worth the hassle? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,065
edited June 2023 in General
imageElectric cars – are they worth the hassle? – politicalbetting.com

A couple of days ago I was driving North up the M6 when we stopped at a service station. The car pictured above was was being charged as we arrived and was still being charged when we left after about half an hour.

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Comments

  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    FPT
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    viewcode said:

    Farooq said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Charles Kennedy is trending on Twitter. Not sure why. Maybe something to do with Ian Blackford standing down in his old constituency.

    People seem to be blaming Blackford for Kennedy's death (because he took Kennedy's seat at the 2015 election)

    Seems very unfair on Ian Blackford... Ultimately the only one responsible for Charles Kennedy's death was Charles Kennedy.
    I don't mean to sound unkind, especially as I respected what Kennedy did around the Iraq war, but it's just as well Blackford won because we shouldn't have such self-destructive characters in parliament. It's really not fair on constituents to have someone who is sozzled half the time in charge of important things.

    See also Johnson, B.
    Kennedy drunk was a better reader of Iraq than Blair sober.

    Churchill was frequently drunk

    Trump is genuinely teetotal
    How can we really know whether Trump is or not?...
    Weirdly I think he really is. His brother ended badly due to drink and Donald held him in some contempt. He's never needed to pose or fit in - people fit to him, not vice versa - and has no need nor wish to use alcohol. If he were lying there's plenty of scope for photographic evidence.
    Agreed he's teetotal, but he poses all the time, sticking his chin out like Mussolini while claiming he's such a great businessman and real estate genius etc. There are members of his family who have a good ol' laugh when he says such things. Admittedly he doesn't pose saying he appreciates fine dining, or skilled language use, or Renaissance painting, etc. He poses on the golf course too.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    F*** me! I've been trying to tune into PB all evening and I just keep getting Mumsnet.

    I had a quick skim through the evening's output and, between Leon's stupid boomer Facebook shit and what to tell your kids about cocks, it was fairly lame.

    On topic: is it worth waiting an extra 20 minutes at Clackett Lane to reduce CO2 emissions? Probably, yes. Are there significant infrastructure and behavioural challenges to overcome with BEVs? Probably, also yes.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,197
    Alastair Campbell compares the Hallett Inquiry to Butler, Hutton and Chilcott on The Rest Is Politics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE4QLkIPjrs (or other podcast platforms).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,197
    OT eight Chinese snooker players banned for match-fixing, two for life.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/snooker/65641122
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,197
    OT golfers are severely pissed off over the PGA/LIV rapprochement. PGA players are now wondering why they did not take the LIV money, especially as it looks like the PGA has now sold out.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/65827786
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,197
    Dura_Ace said:

    F*** me! I've been trying to tune into PB all evening and I just keep getting Mumsnet.

    I had a quick skim through the evening's output and, between Leon's stupid boomer Facebook shit and what to tell your kids about cocks, it was fairly lame.

    On topic: is it worth waiting an extra 20 minutes at Clackett Lane to reduce CO2 emissions? Probably, yes. Are there significant infrastructure and behavioural challenges to overcome with BEVs? Probably, also yes.
    EVs reduce NOx pollution as well, but increased tyre dust pollution, largely owing to EV weight, should be a concern.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    On topic (are you sure? - ed.) I recently replaced my ICE with a hybrid - its great and I'm getting ~70mpg. The reason I didn't go electric was i) no place to charge overnight, ii) range issue - while most of my driving is around town I do the occasional 200m+ trip with immediate return and I really don't want to sit around waiting for the car to charge for the return leg and iii) I reckon in 5 years prices of EV will have fallen substantially so in the meantime the hybrid is a good compromise. The only issue with the hybrid is it has a small 12V battery which can go flat if the car isn't driven for an extended period (3-4 wks). Very happy with my purchase.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,612
    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,050
    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    Most people couldn't yet buy an EV. even if they wanted to - both because they are too expensive, and simply because no one is yet making enough of them.

    That's going to change fairly quickly, as the major manufacturers get their new factories running, and sometime beyond that, simply stop making ICE cars.

    The market will solve the charging problem, eventually. But there are going to be some very pissed off voters for at least a couple if electoral cycles, if governments don't accelerate that solution.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    Good morning.

    Well I'm sure you've all read and debated this* but Rowan Atkinson, famously knowledgeable on motoring, wrote a rather good piece about electric cars last weekend.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson


    * I only come on here fleetingly, usually first thing
  • I bought a fully-electric Hyundai Kona in March 2019, done 75,000 miles in it since, and have no regrets.

    Three months ago a dashboard warning light came on saying there was a problem with the (main) battery. The dealership from whom I bought the car couldn't fix it so it had to be sent to a centre in Tilbury (200 miles away). They had the car for 8 weeks but on the plus side they completely replaced the battery free of charge.

    I'd agree with (a), (b) and (c) though. Much as I think it's essential we go electric to solve the problem of emissions, as can often be the case a sensible goal is being thwarted by a lack of attention to policy detail (charging network issues, cost of vehicles, environmental impact of manufacture/disposal, etc etc).

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,050
    In 2021, Coffee Co. elections director Misty Hampton gave a group of Trump associates unauthorized access to GA voting machines.

    After she resigned, another county hired her to run elections.

    Now investigators have seized an election server there, too.

    https://twitter.com/AnnaBower/status/1666229884165693441
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,050
    Graduation ceremony.

    Police in Richmond, Virginia, say seven people shot, six more injured after a graduation ceremony.

    Two people are in custody, authorities say.

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1666227976504221696
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    Well I'm sure you've all read and debated this* but Rowan Atkinson, famously knowledgeable on motoring, wrote a rather good piece about electric cars last weekend.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson


    * I only come on here fleetingly, usually first thing

    The article is bullshit. EVs are about 15-20% heavier than equivalent ICEs, not 2-3x. And over the course of 70,000 miles well over 95% of emissions are from the tailpipe, not manufacturing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,050
    Interesting interview (which also contains a very clear explanation of the blue/gold dress illusion*)

    Anil Seth (@anilkseth) is exploring the possibility that consciousness may emerge from neuronal activity the way flocking patterns emerge from flying starlings. Hear more on The Joy of Why:
    https://listen.quantamagazine.org/jow-208-s
    Or read the transcript

    (* If you've done photography and intuitively understand white balance, it's quite easy to make yourself see the dress as either white and gold, or blue and black.
    Though interestingly, one of those two perceptions is still the dominant, 'natural' one.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,050
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,057
    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    Well I'm sure you've all read and debated this* but Rowan Atkinson, famously knowledgeable on motoring, wrote a rather good piece about electric cars last weekend.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson


    * I only come on here fleetingly, usually first thing

    The article is bullshit. EVs are about 15-20% heavier than equivalent ICEs, not 2-3x. And over the course of 70,000 miles well over 95% of emissions are from the tailpipe, not manufacturing.
    The article actually pisses me off. If Atkinson is concerned about the environmental costs of manufacturing cars why has he bought so many of them? I didn't know that he is so full of shit.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,050
    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    Well I'm sure you've all read and debated this* but Rowan Atkinson, famously knowledgeable on motoring, wrote a rather good piece about electric cars last weekend.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson


    * I only come on here fleetingly, usually first thing

    The article is bullshit. EVs are about 15-20% heavier than equivalent ICEs, not 2-3x. And over the course of 70,000 miles well over 95% of emissions are from the tailpipe, not manufacturing.
    On the basis of that article, his engineering studies were a waste of time.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,891
    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    Well I'm sure you've all read and debated this* but Rowan Atkinson, famously knowledgeable on motoring, wrote a rather good piece about electric cars last weekend.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson


    * I only come on here fleetingly, usually first thing

    He hasn't done the sums though. Bloomberg did, and you don't need to drive far in most countries to be ahead on carbon:







  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,891
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,057
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Not as much fun as an electric cargo bicycle. Then rent/share a car on the occasions needed. I know a few people who've done this got rid of the car entirely, and are very happy with their decision. Also saves a lot of money.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,612
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    Yes, but my point still stands; there is a large differential.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,691
    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,719

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:

    There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.

    If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.

    Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.

    Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.

    Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.

    This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.

    And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.

    The numbers don't add up.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,057
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    Well I'm sure you've all read and debated this* but Rowan Atkinson, famously knowledgeable on motoring, wrote a rather good piece about electric cars last weekend.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson


    * I only come on here fleetingly, usually first thing

    The article is bullshit. EVs are about 15-20% heavier than equivalent ICEs, not 2-3x. And over the course of 70,000 miles well over 95% of emissions are from the tailpipe, not manufacturing.
    On the basis of that article, his engineering studies were a waste of time.
    Also I find describing himself as an 'early adopter' of electric vehicles misleading. If the article was honest it would have a list at the top of all the cars he currently owns, to put Atkinson's 'I love electric vehicles' into context.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,691
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    Well I'm sure you've all read and debated this* but Rowan Atkinson, famously knowledgeable on motoring, wrote a rather good piece about electric cars last weekend.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson


    * I only come on here fleetingly, usually first thing

    The article is bullshit. EVs are about 15-20% heavier than equivalent ICEs, not 2-3x. And over the course of 70,000 miles well over 95% of emissions are from the tailpipe, not manufacturing.
    On the basis of that article, his engineering studies were a waste of time.
    Further proof, if proof were needed, the the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,891
    edited June 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    It is probably only a decade away that finding a petrol station is the difficult task.

    I have only used public chargers 3 times in 3 years of EV ownership, and regularly travel between Leicester and the IoW.

    Sure, EVs are not yet practical for everyone, but the point that they become so is approaching quickly. 23% of new car sales are EVs now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,891
    kyf_100 said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:

    There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.

    If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.

    Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.

    Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.

    Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.

    This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.

    And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.

    The numbers don't add up.
    It isn't a policy that I care about either way, but governments of both colours are desperately needing new tax revenues to repair disintegrating public services, cope with an ageing population and make up for a flat economy. There simply aren't that many options that are compatible with winning elections.

  • Do we have sufficient generation capacity to charge 3 million electric car batteries on a night when the wind isn't blowing?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,796
    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:

    There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.

    If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.

    Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.

    Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.

    Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.

    This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.

    And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.

    The numbers don't add up.
    It isn't a policy that I care about either way, but governments of both colours are desperately needing new tax revenues to repair disintegrating public services, cope with an ageing population and make up for a flat economy. There simply aren't that many options that are compatible with winning elections.

    God forbid they should stop wasting money and try and improve the economy instead. Picking on world-leading industries like private schools or otherwise taking money from the enterprising and productive is so much easier.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297

    Do we have sufficient generation capacity to charge 3 million electric car batteries on a night when the wind isn't blowing?

    No.

    But we don't have enough petrol station capacity to fill up 35 million cars simultaneously either.

    More importantly, the move to electric is multi-decade. Even if every new car sold was electric (which hasn't happened yet) it would still take 7 or 8 years for half the cars on the road to be electric.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    Do we have sufficient generation capacity to charge 3 million electric car batteries on a night when the wind isn't blowing?

    The wiring infrastructure does not exist
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,694
    edited June 2023
    I’ve been looking at getting an electric car for the business.

    At the moment the numbers don’t quite add up to buy it, but leasing a cheaper one would probably be cost effective compared to the ICE I’m driving at the moment.

    Equally, I have solar panels, a double driveway and own an ICE for other journeys.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    Yes, but my point still stands; there is a large differential.
    Well; second hand electric vehicles are almost unknown, because five years ago, electric car sales in the UK were negligible.

    Over the next decade we'll see large numbers come onto the second hand market, and that will change.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    Well I'm sure you've all read and debated this* but Rowan Atkinson, famously knowledgeable on motoring, wrote a rather good piece about electric cars last weekend.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson


    * I only come on here fleetingly, usually first thing

    He hasn't done the sums though. Bloomberg did, and you don't need to drive far in most countries to be ahead on carbon:







    And those numbers are from 2020: the carbon intensity of the UK (and most European) electricity grids has shrunk significantly since then.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,551
    One can assume that Tucker has at least one PB follower.



  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa67609c-8ddd-11ed-b06e-ab31665740df?shareToken=c14b9e0fa60452915987e98b68d863b8

    The Coren piece
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,606
    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:

    There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.

    If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.

    Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.

    Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.

    Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.

    This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.

    And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.

    The numbers don't add up.
    It isn't a policy that I care about either way, but governments of both colours are desperately needing new tax revenues to repair disintegrating public services, cope with an ageing population and make up for a flat economy. There simply aren't that many options that are compatible with winning elections.

    A policy that increases spending faster than tax take increases won’t be funding anything.

    But that isn’t the point.

    As many Labour people said, about the 45p tax band (for example) - “it’s the principle”
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    edited June 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa67609c-8ddd-11ed-b06e-ab31665740df?shareToken=c14b9e0fa60452915987e98b68d863b8

    The Coren piece
    Yes. His car broke down repeatedly.

    Many purchasers of earlier British Leyland / MG / Rover / Jaguar have suffered similarly with ICEs.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, Tesla tops the owner satisfaction ratings.

    Of course, they could all be brainwashed. But the real world evidence is that people who buy Teslas buy Teslas again. And on this very board, everyone who has bought an EV (myself, Foxy, Dura, FrequentLurker) would do so again.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,606

    Dura_Ace said:

    F*** me! I've been trying to tune into PB all evening and I just keep getting Mumsnet.

    I had a quick skim through the evening's output and, between Leon's stupid boomer Facebook shit and what to tell your kids about cocks, it was fairly lame.

    On topic: is it worth waiting an extra 20 minutes at Clackett Lane to reduce CO2 emissions? Probably, yes. Are there significant infrastructure and behavioural challenges to overcome with BEVs? Probably, also yes.
    EVs reduce NOx pollution as well, but increased tyre dust pollution, largely owing to EV weight, should be a concern.
    The difference in EV weight is not vast - a few hundred kilos rather than the 2x -3x stuff. Which is a MAGA talking point, incidentally.

    The weight differential is decreasing, as EVs get more efficient power trains and better batteries each year.

    Because EVs require air cooling(for the water cooling system), they pull in a lot of air. Some basic calculations say that your EV is hovering up more particulates than it produces.

    I note, that a previous thing was “brake particulates from those nasty, heavy EVs”. Which evaporated when someone pointed out that nearly all EVs (and all future ones) use regenerative braking, most of the time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,606
    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa67609c-8ddd-11ed-b06e-ab31665740df?shareToken=c14b9e0fa60452915987e98b68d863b8

    The Coren piece
    Yes. His car broke down repeatedly.

    Many purchasers of earlier British Leyland / MG / Rover / Jaguar have suffered similarly with ICEs.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, Tesla tops the owner satisfaction ratings.

    Of course, they could all be brainwashed. But the real world evidence is that people who buy Teslas buy Teslas again. And on this very board, everyone who has bought an EV (myself, Foxy, Dura, FrequentLurker) would do so again.
    The biggest problem is the variable quality of the charging infrastructure. There is a reason that Ford has broken ranks with the other manufacturers and signed a deal to use the Tesla network.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,514
    edited June 2023
    On topic (for a change) an electric car works well as a second car, or as a company car which comes with a massive tax break, for those who own a house with a driveway.

    Charging infrastructure still needs a lot of work though, and peak demand last year over Christmas was overwhelming.

    The worry is that the change is being forced on people faster than they can cope, and the losers will be the poorest. See Sadiq Khan’s ULEZ for a good example, where it’s been extended to areas with little public transport, and many cars less than a decade old are being affected. Millions of people run old bangers, and can’t afford to either to buy a newer car or to pay £4,000 a year in tax to use the old one.

    Me, I have an old banger, but one with a V8 - save the V8s! :D
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,694
    edited June 2023
    kyf_100 said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:

    There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.

    If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.

    Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.

    Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.

    Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.

    This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.

    And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.

    The numbers don't add up.
    Any government that wants to get rid of, or at least seriously reduce, the private sector would be focussed on cutting class sizes in the state sector.

    Which would also dramatically improve outcomes and enhance social mobility.

    But that would be costly and difficult so they won't do it, hiding behind flawed studies by stupid and/or drunk statisticians claiming the bigger the class, the better the outcome.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa67609c-8ddd-11ed-b06e-ab31665740df?shareToken=c14b9e0fa60452915987e98b68d863b8

    The Coren piece
    Yes. His car broke down repeatedly.

    Many purchasers of earlier British Leyland / MG / Rover / Jaguar have suffered similarly with ICEs.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, Tesla tops the owner satisfaction ratings.

    Of course, they could all be brainwashed. But the real world evidence is that people who buy Teslas buy Teslas again. And on this very board, everyone who has bought an EV (myself, Foxy, Dura, FrequentLurker) would do so again.
    Is he going to trade it on for a Triumph TR7?!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,612
    "ELECTRIC CARS – ARE THEY WORTH THE HASSLE?"

    For some people, yes. For others, no.

    But as time goes on, the hassle will reduce.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,514
    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    A long-range Rivian truck costs $100,000, does it not?

    Yes, there are some good $100k EVs, but 99% of people don’t spend that much on a car, so it’s still very much a luxury good.

    If, like most people, you have £30k to spend on a new car, you have the choice of a Leaf, or, umm, not much else. Even the cheapest electric Mini is £33k.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,612
    Incidentally, if we're all meant to move to EVs with charging at home, and electric instead of gas boilers, what will be the effect on local electricity networks - from substations to the home? Can the distribution system get enough power to homes to cope with the increased usage?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    Sandpit said:

    On topic (for a change) an electric car works well as a second car, or as a company car which comes with a massive tax break, for those who own a house with a driveway.

    Charging infrastructure still needs a lot of work though, and peak demand last year over Christmas was overwhelming.

    The worry is that the change is being forced on people faster than they can cope, and the losers will be the poorest. See Sadiq Khan’s ULEZ for a good example, where it’s been extended to areas with little public transport, and many cars less than a decade old are being affected. Millions of people run old bangers, and can’t afford to either to buy a newer car or to pay £4,000 a year in tax to use the old one.

    Me, I have an old banger, but one with a V8 - save the V8s! :D

    I have an electric car as my sole car, having sold my remaining ICE car a few months ago.

    Southern California has excellent fast charging networks*, mind, and I have a driveway. Plus petrol is highly taxed here.

    For me, an electric vehicle is simply the best one I can get for the price.

    * And Tesla is opening up its Superchargers which will make a big difference.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    A long-range Rivian truck costs $100,000, does it not?

    Yes, there are some good $100k EVs, but 99% of people don’t spend that much on a car, so it’s still very much a luxury good.

    If, like most people, you have £30k to spend on a new car, you have the choice of a Leaf, or, umm, not much else. Even the cheapest electric Mini is £33k.
    Yep: EVs are currently only in the top 50% of the market. But when I bought my Roadster, they were only in the top 1%. When I bought the Model S, the top 3%. When I got a Taycan, they were competing in the top 10%. And now, with the Tesla Model Y the best selling car in the world they are the top 50% of the market.

    Every year electric range improves. Every year the price differential narrows. Every year the charging networks improve.

    And that means that the percentage of EVs will relentlessly rise. Heck, it's relentlessly rising even in countries and States with no EV incentives at all.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,606

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa67609c-8ddd-11ed-b06e-ab31665740df?shareToken=c14b9e0fa60452915987e98b68d863b8

    The Coren piece
    Yes. His car broke down repeatedly.

    Many purchasers of earlier British Leyland / MG / Rover / Jaguar have suffered similarly with ICEs.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, Tesla tops the owner satisfaction ratings.

    Of course, they could all be brainwashed. But the real world evidence is that people who buy Teslas buy Teslas again. And on this very board, everyone who has bought an EV (myself, Foxy, Dura, FrequentLurker) would do so again.
    Is he going to trade it on for a Triumph TR7?!
    Surely the excessively increased reliability would ruin his driving experience?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,558
    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:

    There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.

    If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.

    Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.

    Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.

    Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.

    This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.

    And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.

    The numbers don't add up.
    Any government that wants to get rid of, or at least seriously reduce, the private sector would be focussed on cutting class sizes in the state sector.

    Which would also dramatically improve outcomes and enhance social mobility.

    But that would be costly and difficult so they won't do it, hiding behind flawed studies by stupid and/or drunk statisticians claiming the bigger the class, the better the outcome.
    Didn't Labour make modest progress in this area when they were in power, now undone by Tory neglect?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,038
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    Doesn't the crossover need to come well before the end of the decade if we're banning the sale of new ICEs?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    A long-range Rivian truck costs $100,000, does it not?

    Yes, there are some good $100k EVs, but 99% of people don’t spend that much on a car, so it’s still very much a luxury good.

    If, like most people, you have £30k to spend on a new car, you have the choice of a Leaf, or, umm, not much else. Even the cheapest electric Mini is £33k.
    $79k for the Rivian with the large battery pack (350 miles). So, yes, it's a luxury product. But then again it's a self driving truck that has a 350 mile range, will handle pretty much any off road you throw at it, and does 0-60 faster than my old Porsche 911.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,050
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Chicken and egg problems are where government can usefully do something. As they did with wind power.

    And agreed - most motoring is well under 50 miles a day.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,671
    On topic: for most users an EV does the job with very few hardships. Providing you can charge the car at home, most charging will be done overnight. If you go to places that have easily accessible destination charging, you can top off whilst you shop or whatever - again the car charges whilst you are parked.

    But - and its a big but - if you do longer trips, just get a Tesla. The public charger network is woeful - old, slow and confusing. The car in the picture is a Hyundai Ioniq 5 - one of the few cars with an 800v electric drivetrain capable of drawing power at 350kW. The problem is that there are still relatively few places that will vend at that speed.

    The photo looks like Lancaster services, in which case those are legacy Electric Highway chargers which vend just 50kW. The Ioniq was sat there for a long time because it has a big battery and charges slowly.

    I've done plenty of long trips in my Tesla Model Y where charging hasn't taken any extra time. One with the family from up here in northern Aberdeenshire down to southern Essex needed two charging stops which we combined with toilet and eating (not simultaneously). When we were finished we unplugged and were on our way.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,558

    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:

    There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.

    If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.

    Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.

    Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.

    Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.

    This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.

    And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.

    The numbers don't add up.
    It isn't a policy that I care about either way, but governments of both colours are desperately needing new tax revenues to repair disintegrating public services, cope with an ageing population and make up for a flat economy. There simply aren't that many options that are compatible with winning elections.

    A policy that increases spending faster than tax take increases won’t be funding anything.

    But that isn’t the point.

    As many Labour people said, about the 45p tax band (for example) - “it’s the principle”
    It is certainly revenue positive under any reasonable assumption on how many people will choose to join the other 93% of children for whom the state sector is deemed adequate. Why shouldn't private schools pay VAT the same as any other business? They're not charities as most people understand them. Like fuel subsidies in the developing world, tax breaks for private schools are simply a fiscal transfer to the better off, and a luxury we can't afford in these straitened times.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,389
    Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,389
    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    What on earth has it being Christmas got to do with whether you not you want a break during your journey? Driving for three hours continuously is borderline dangerous
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297

    On topic: for most users an EV does the job with very few hardships. Providing you can charge the car at home, most charging will be done overnight. If you go to places that have easily accessible destination charging, you can top off whilst you shop or whatever - again the car charges whilst you are parked.

    But - and its a big but - if you do longer trips, just get a Tesla. The public charger network is woeful - old, slow and confusing. The car in the picture is a Hyundai Ioniq 5 - one of the few cars with an 800v electric drivetrain capable of drawing power at 350kW. The problem is that there are still relatively few places that will vend at that speed.

    The photo looks like Lancaster services, in which case those are legacy Electric Highway chargers which vend just 50kW. The Ioniq was sat there for a long time because it has a big battery and charges slowly.

    I've done plenty of long trips in my Tesla Model Y where charging hasn't taken any extra time. One with the family from up here in northern Aberdeenshire down to southern Essex needed two charging stops which we combined with toilet and eating (not simultaneously). When we were finished we unplugged and were on our way.

    The non-Tesla infrastructure in the UK is pretty poor. And, of course, a Tesla can use any charger which gives their owners a lot of options.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,514
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    A long-range Rivian truck costs $100,000, does it not?

    Yes, there are some good $100k EVs, but 99% of people don’t spend that much on a car, so it’s still very much a luxury good.

    If, like most people, you have £30k to spend on a new car, you have the choice of a Leaf, or, umm, not much else. Even the cheapest electric Mini is £33k.
    Yep: EVs are currently only in the top 50% of the market. But when I bought my Roadster, they were only in the top 1%. When I bought the Model S, the top 3%. When I got a Taycan, they were competing in the top 10%. And now, with the Tesla Model Y the best selling car in the world they are the top 50% of the market.

    Every year electric range improves. Every year the price differential narrows. Every year the charging networks improve.

    And that means that the percentage of EVs will relentlessly rise. Heck, it's relentlessly rising even in countries and States with no EV incentives at all.
    Cheapest Model Y (in the UK) is still £45k for 283 miles, with the long range model at £53k for 331 miles.

    A similar-sized petrol-power car, something like a Kia Sportage, comes in at £28k.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,606
    edited June 2023

    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:

    There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.

    If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.

    Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.

    Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.

    Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.

    This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.

    And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.

    The numbers don't add up.
    It isn't a policy that I care about either way, but governments of both colours are desperately needing new tax revenues to repair disintegrating public services, cope with an ageing population and make up for a flat economy. There simply aren't that many options that are compatible with winning elections.

    A policy that increases spending faster than tax take increases won’t be funding anything.

    But that isn’t the point.

    As many Labour people said, about the 45p tax band (for example) - “it’s the principle”
    It is certainly revenue positive under any reasonable assumption on how many people will choose to join the other 93% of children for whom the state sector is deemed adequate. Why shouldn't private schools pay VAT the same as any other business? They're not charities as most people understand them. Like fuel subsidies in the developing world, tax breaks for private schools are simply a fiscal transfer to the better off, and a luxury we can't afford in these straitened times.
    I note that 2/3rds of your reply is an appeal to principle.

    Nothing wrong with principles. I have a one or two myself, stolen from the poor.

    EDIT : how will the Labour government define a private school? There are a number of educational charities providing tuition etc who might get caught in the net. A previous look at this suggested a simple “charitable % of revenue” would catch a lot of charities.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    A long-range Rivian truck costs $100,000, does it not?

    Yes, there are some good $100k EVs, but 99% of people don’t spend that much on a car, so it’s still very much a luxury good.

    If, like most people, you have £30k to spend on a new car, you have the choice of a Leaf, or, umm, not much else. Even the cheapest electric Mini is £33k.
    Yep: EVs are currently only in the top 50% of the market. But when I bought my Roadster, they were only in the top 1%. When I bought the Model S, the top 3%. When I got a Taycan, they were competing in the top 10%. And now, with the Tesla Model Y the best selling car in the world they are the top 50% of the market.

    Every year electric range improves. Every year the price differential narrows. Every year the charging networks improve.

    And that means that the percentage of EVs will relentlessly rise. Heck, it's relentlessly rising even in countries and States with no EV incentives at all.
    Cheapest Model Y (in the UK) is still £45k for 283 miles, with the long range model at £53k for 331 miles.

    A similar-sized petrol-power car, something like a Kia Sportage, comes in at £28k.
    In the US, the Model Y now costs less than the average new car: https://insideevs.com/news/664206/tesla-model-y-priced-below-us-average-for-new-cars/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,891
    edited June 2023
    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Worth repeating my back of a fruity flavoured vape packet calculation from December of last year:

    There are 615,000 private school places in the UK, with fees averaging £15654 per year.

    If we assume unitary elasticity for a moment, a 20% tax would reduce the number of public school students to 492,000. This would mean the 20% tax would raise an extra £3130 per head, or £1539 million in all.

    Divide that by the number of state school pupils (approx 10.5m), and you get £149.20 more per pupil per year to spend.

    Ah yes, but there's a problem here. Finding places for the other 123,000 former private school students who now need a state school place.

    Average spend per head in the state system was 6970 last year, so you'd need to find an extra 857m just to pay for the extra state places required.

    This would therefore mean you'd actually only be looking at an extra £64.33 spend per pupil.

    And for that, you would be uprooting the lives of 123,000 children, as well as significantly reducing their educational outcomes, and reducing social mobility (due to the increased bifurcation I mentioned in my previous post) all for an extra £64.33 spend per state school pupil.

    The numbers don't add up.
    It isn't a policy that I care about either way, but governments of both colours are desperately needing new tax revenues to repair disintegrating public services, cope with an ageing population and make up for a flat economy. There simply aren't that many options that are compatible with winning elections.

    God forbid they should stop wasting money and try and improve the economy instead. Picking on world-leading industries like private schools or otherwise taking money from the enterprising and productive is so much easier.
    Yes, the alternative to new taxes is continuing decline of public services from schools to courts to health. With a deteriorating age structure of the population simply maintaining existing services requires increased funding.

    Economic growth is of course the magic needed, but not easy for politicians to conjure up, particularly those politicians wedded to the grey vote, the '"Red Wall" levelling up and the autarky of Brexitism.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,671
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    We also have a market which is unregulated and is utterly chaotic. 40 networks, some overlapping (i.e. unit says network a, but network b actually administers the billing). Ownership and maintenance often isn't clear, with a lot of broken units not being repaired.

    Then we have what is being installed. We need a lot of destination charging - quite simply a socket where you plug your own cable in and draw 7kW at 32A. Not enough of these go in, many have a lengthy process via an app to get them vending, and charge £stupid for the experience.

    Worse is "rapid" charging. A decade ago a 50kW charger was all you needed, as Leafs and Zoes had small batteries. Now? We still see brand new 50kW stations being installed, branded as "rapid" and being charged £bonkers per kW for a charge which means a modern big battery EV needs a lengthy stop.

    I don't need most public charging as I have a Tesla. The odd occasion I have have needed rapid charging on a non-Tesla charger, I feel for the other drivers in any other brand. Even the decent charger networks with maintained kit may only vend at 150kW at best (Instavolt as an example) and many chargers you expect to run at that speed only do 60kW.

    The market needs regulating if any government wants to get people into EVs. You would need investment into the National Grid to supply power onto sites and well-maintained fit for purpose charging that doesn't cost way more than petrol. Otherwise, forget it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    We also have a market which is unregulated and is utterly chaotic. 40 networks, some overlapping (i.e. unit says network a, but network b actually administers the billing). Ownership and maintenance often isn't clear, with a lot of broken units not being repaired.

    Then we have what is being installed. We need a lot of destination charging - quite simply a socket where you plug your own cable in and draw 7kW at 32A. Not enough of these go in, many have a lengthy process via an app to get them vending, and charge £stupid for the experience.

    Worse is "rapid" charging. A decade ago a 50kW charger was all you needed, as Leafs and Zoes had small batteries. Now? We still see brand new 50kW stations being installed, branded as "rapid" and being charged £bonkers per kW for a charge which means a modern big battery EV needs a lengthy stop.

    I don't need most public charging as I have a Tesla. The odd occasion I have have needed rapid charging on a non-Tesla charger, I feel for the other drivers in any other brand. Even the decent charger networks with maintained kit may only vend at 150kW at best (Instavolt as an example) and many chargers you expect to run at that speed only do 60kW.

    The market needs regulating if any government wants to get people into EVs. You would need investment into the National Grid to supply power onto sites and well-maintained fit for purpose charging that doesn't cost way more than petrol. Otherwise, forget it.
    Errr... Most Tesla Superchargers max out at 150kw
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,891

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    We also have a market which is unregulated and is utterly chaotic. 40 networks, some overlapping (i.e. unit says network a, but network b actually administers the billing). Ownership and maintenance often isn't clear, with a lot of broken units not being repaired.

    Then we have what is being installed. We need a lot of destination charging - quite simply a socket where you plug your own cable in and draw 7kW at 32A. Not enough of these go in, many have a lengthy process via an app to get them vending, and charge £stupid for the experience.

    Worse is "rapid" charging. A decade ago a 50kW charger was all you needed, as Leafs and Zoes had small batteries. Now? We still see brand new 50kW stations being installed, branded as "rapid" and being charged £bonkers per kW for a charge which means a modern big battery EV needs a lengthy stop.

    I don't need most public charging as I have a Tesla. The odd occasion I have have needed rapid charging on a non-Tesla charger, I feel for the other drivers in any other brand. Even the decent charger networks with maintained kit may only vend at 150kW at best (Instavolt as an example) and many chargers you expect to run at that speed only do 60kW.

    The market needs regulating if any government wants to get people into EVs. You would need investment into the National Grid to supply power onto sites and well-maintained fit for purpose charging that doesn't cost way more than petrol. Otherwise, forget it.
    I agree, for people who regularly drive 250+ miles in a day, and cannot do destination charging Tesla is the best for charging.

    That is not a very big sector of the car market though. I don't think myself unusual in only using a public charger once a year, which in itself presents a challenge to making a charger network viable.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,612
    DavidL said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    A local, private, all girls school announced this week it is closing in June for good. The decisive factor was the removal of the charity exemption for rates. So rather than raising more money the policy in this case has cost well over 100 jobs and will throw quite a number of kids onto the local authorities. It will not be the only one.

    The inability of politicians, in this case the Scottish government, to recognise that actions have consequences and people and businesses react to being taxed, is truly remarkable.
    They don't care, as it's not about money or helping people. It's about ideology.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,021
    edited June 2023

    Do we have sufficient generation capacity to charge 3 million electric car batteries on a night when the wind isn't blowing?

    Yes, or we can do. The more interesting question is about transmission. Fossil fuel, whether oil or gas, is cheap to move in bulk across the world by pipeline or tanker. Electricity has to go down copper wires, which have relatively lower capacity and the material to make them is expensive and in limited supply. As we become more electrified our energy sources must be more local to avoid unaffordable transmission costs. Lots of wind, because that's what the UK has. It has implications for geo politics and energy security.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,671

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa67609c-8ddd-11ed-b06e-ab31665740df?shareToken=c14b9e0fa60452915987e98b68d863b8

    The Coren piece
    Yes. His car broke down repeatedly.

    Many purchasers of earlier British Leyland / MG / Rover / Jaguar have suffered similarly with ICEs.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, Tesla tops the owner satisfaction ratings.

    Of course, they could all be brainwashed. But the real world evidence is that people who buy Teslas buy Teslas again. And on this very board, everyone who has bought an EV (myself, Foxy, Dura, FrequentLurker) would do so again.
    The biggest problem is the variable quality of the charging infrastructure. There is a reason that Ford has broken ranks with the other manufacturers and signed a deal to use the Tesla network.
    America has a unique problem with charging systems in that in a VHS vs Betamax battle it has been stuck with Video 2000.

    The global standard connector is CCS2 - a 7-pin Type 2 connector (AC), and two pins below (DC) for rapid charging. America managed to get stuck with the older Type 1 AC connector. Which means it has been using CCS1 (older and slower 5-pin Type 1 for AC plus 2 pin Type 2 DC) which gets a lot of complaints.

    Tesla in America uses its own version of Type 2, now rebranded as the "NACS" North American Charging Standard. The deal with Ford will see its CCS1 sockets replaced with NACS. Will others follow? Possibly...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,396

    DavidL said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    A local, private, all girls school announced this week it is closing in June for good. The decisive factor was the removal of the charity exemption for rates. So rather than raising more money the policy in this case has cost well over 100 jobs and will throw quite a number of kids onto the local authorities. It will not be the only one.

    The inability of politicians, in this case the Scottish government, to recognise that actions have consequences and people and businesses react to being taxed, is truly remarkable.
    They don't care, as it's not about money or helping people. It's about ideology.
    Yes, but they also like to claim they can fund other things they want to do by the policy in exactly the same way as Labour are claiming with VAT on school fees.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,207

    Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.

    Good morning

    Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive

    I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.

    Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg

    My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax

    Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change

    I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,514
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    A local, private, all girls school announced this week it is closing in June for good. The decisive factor was the removal of the charity exemption for rates. So rather than raising more money the policy in this case has cost well over 100 jobs and will throw quite a number of kids onto the local authorities. It will not be the only one.

    The inability of politicians, in this case the Scottish government, to recognise that actions have consequences and people and businesses react to being taxed, is truly remarkable.
    They don't care, as it's not about money or helping people. It's about ideology.
    Yes, but they also like to claim they can fund other things they want to do by the policy in exactly the same way as Labour are claiming with VAT on school fees.
    They’ll be funding a lot more school places for a start. Although where they get the money from, is a different question!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,558
    DavidL said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    A local, private, all girls school announced this week it is closing in June for good. The decisive factor was the removal of the charity exemption for rates. So rather than raising more money the policy in this case has cost well over 100 jobs and will throw quite a number of kids onto the local authorities. It will not be the only one.

    The inability of politicians, in this case the Scottish government, to recognise that actions have consequences and people and businesses react to being taxed, is truly remarkable.
    None of those kids will go to other private schools? None of the teachers will find jobs in the state or independent sector? Seems unlikely. If a business is only viable when it doesn't have to pay taxes that other businesses pay (and those taxes are required to fund the infrastructure and services that all the businesses rely upon) then why should it stay in business?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,558
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    A local, private, all girls school announced this week it is closing in June for good. The decisive factor was the removal of the charity exemption for rates. So rather than raising more money the policy in this case has cost well over 100 jobs and will throw quite a number of kids onto the local authorities. It will not be the only one.

    The inability of politicians, in this case the Scottish government, to recognise that actions have consequences and people and businesses react to being taxed, is truly remarkable.
    They don't care, as it's not about money or helping people. It's about ideology.
    Yes, but they also like to claim they can fund other things they want to do by the policy in exactly the same way as Labour are claiming with VAT on school fees.
    They’ll be funding a lot more school places for a start. Although where they get the money from, is a different question!
    Under any reasonable assumption on switching, the policy will pay for more state school places with money left over to raise per pupil funding. A policy that raises school funding while removing an unfair tax distortion that funnels money to the well off, what's not to like about that?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    Lots of people do once a year, over Christmas and New Year. Just one three hour wait then (and there were plenty) is enough to spoil your whole year, especially with small children with you. Giles Coren did a piece saying he is retransitioning for this reason.
    One three hour wait is enough to ruin your entire year?

    I own an electric car (well truck). Over Christmas, the family got into the truck and headed up the mountains to Big Bear. Over the Christmas week, we went round the ski resorts in the area, returning to our AirBnB every night.

    Aside from one 20 minute wait for a fast charger, we had no problems whatsoever with a 500 mile round trip.

    If you have a driveway, don't regularly travel 300m+ a day, and can afford it, an electric car is best.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa67609c-8ddd-11ed-b06e-ab31665740df?shareToken=c14b9e0fa60452915987e98b68d863b8

    The Coren piece
    Yes. His car broke down repeatedly.

    Many purchasers of earlier British Leyland / MG / Rover / Jaguar have suffered similarly with ICEs.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, Tesla tops the owner satisfaction ratings.

    Of course, they could all be brainwashed. But the real world evidence is that people who buy Teslas buy Teslas again. And on this very board, everyone who has bought an EV (myself, Foxy, Dura, FrequentLurker) would do so again.
    The biggest problem is the variable quality of the charging infrastructure. There is a reason that Ford has broken ranks with the other manufacturers and signed a deal to use the Tesla network.
    America has a unique problem with charging systems in that in a VHS vs Betamax battle it has been stuck with Video 2000.

    The global standard connector is CCS2 - a 7-pin Type 2 connector (AC), and two pins below (DC) for rapid charging. America managed to get stuck with the older Type 1 AC connector. Which means it has been using CCS1 (older and slower 5-pin Type 1 for AC plus 2 pin Type 2 DC) which gets a lot of complaints.

    Tesla in America uses its own version of Type 2, now rebranded as the "NACS" North American Charging Standard. The deal with Ford will see its CCS1 sockets replaced with NACS. Will others follow? Possibly...
    There's CCS in the US and there's NACS.

    NACS is smaller and more convenient. CCS is (slightly) more prevalent and handles a higher maximum throughput.

    In the US, 40% of new EVs are Teslas, which use NACS, but where you can buy an adaptor and then use CCS chargers. 60% use CCS. Now Tesla is opening up their charging, I think a lot of the problems will improve.

    There are also some older vehicles which use the old Toyota fast DC charging standard of ChDaMo, but that's on the way out now.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,130

    Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.

    Good morning

    Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive

    I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.

    Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg

    My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax

    Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change

    I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
    Well it rather depends on what your typical driving is, doesn't it? I do maybe four journeys a year of over 200 miles. This really wouldn't be an issue for me. But I can see why those who make these journeys regularly would feel differently.

    The ideal for my family would be a small, low range vehicle for 95% of trips, and a large ICE for the occasional longer trip. Perhaps it might be more cost effective to hire the latter. We might mive to a different model of ownership to what we currently have.
    But other people will have different circumstances.

    My view is that there is still mileage in exploring other clean technologies for the bigger/longer market. But that represents a small minority of journeys.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    FF43 said:

    Do we have sufficient generation capacity to charge 3 million electric car batteries on a night when the wind isn't blowing?

    Yes, or we can do. The more interesting question is about transmission. Fossil fuel, whether oil or gas, is cheap to move in bulk across the world by pipeline or tanker. Electricity has to go down copper wires, which have relatively lower capacity and the material to make them is expensive and in limited supply. As we become more electrified our energy sources must be more local to avoid unaffordable transmission costs. Lots of wind, because that's what the UK has. It has implications for geo politics and energy security.
    The whole electricity network will need to be upgraded if EVs are going to be become the norm. There is absolutely no sign of that happening.

    My boss got himself a top of range electric mercedes eqv a year ago. It was very nice, fast and comfortable. He has already given it up as it was impractical and hideously expensive to charge. He had to abandon the vehicle 3 times as it had run out of charge and there was nowhere to charge it.

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,319

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Published by a think tank founded and led by a former Michael Gove adviser.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,612

    DavidL said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    A local, private, all girls school announced this week it is closing in June for good. The decisive factor was the removal of the charity exemption for rates. So rather than raising more money the policy in this case has cost well over 100 jobs and will throw quite a number of kids onto the local authorities. It will not be the only one.

    The inability of politicians, in this case the Scottish government, to recognise that actions have consequences and people and businesses react to being taxed, is truly remarkable.
    None of those kids will go to other private schools? None of the teachers will find jobs in the state or independent sector? Seems unlikely. If a business is only viable when it doesn't have to pay taxes that other businesses pay (and those taxes are required to fund the infrastructure and services that all the businesses rely upon) then why should it stay in business?
    Charities are businesses. Should they be made to pay the taxes that other businesses pay?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,466

    Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.

    It's the uncertainty more than the wait. I have a friend who drives a medium-level EV. She really likes it, as do I when she gives me a lift - it's powerful, quiet and low-maintenance. She's tech-competent and has a map of charging stations on her phone. But she admits to being worried on longer trips by the possibility that a charging station will be out of order, or full, or slow. There are few places in Britain where there aren't several petrol stations in easy reach, so I don't have the problem with my petrol car.

    What makes it tolerable for her is (a) she has a home charger and (b) she's retired, so being late is not really a big deal. Relying on public chargers only is almost unthinkable, and she's still in two minds whether to retransition.

    Since most lower-income people live in flats or rented accommodation, having a home charger often isn't an option. Coupled with the higher price and as yet more limited second-hand market, it isn't really an option for them, yet. If the 2030 deadline is serious, I think a publicly-funded network of fast chargers is going to be essential.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,891
    Cookie said:

    Don’t really understand why he half hour wait is such a big deal. Most people would take a break of that order anyway on a long drive. And it’s not as if looking for a petrol station, waiting for a pump and filling up is instant.

    Good morning

    Taking a break on a long journey is one thing, but queuing and waiting half and hour or more on more than one occasion is not attractive

    I drive the 450 miles to my family in Lossiemouth without filling up, and on that journey have maybe three or four stops.

    Additionally I can drive a further 150 miles without replenishing the tank and get over 55 mpg

    My BMW 520D is in a class of its own on such a long journey and indeed complies with ULEZ and at a £30 annual road tax

    Why on earth would I consider a ev, and that is without considering paying up to £30,000 more to change

    I will continue to look 'all smug' as I have no intention of buying a ev
    Well it rather depends on what your typical driving is, doesn't it? I do maybe four journeys a year of over 200 miles. This really wouldn't be an issue for me. But I can see why those who make these journeys regularly would feel differently.

    The ideal for my family would be a small, low range vehicle for 95% of trips, and a large ICE for the occasional longer trip. Perhaps it might be more cost effective to hire the latter. We might mive to a different model of ownership to what we currently have.
    But other people will have different circumstances.

    My view is that there is still mileage in exploring other clean technologies for the bigger/longer market. But that represents a small minority of journeys.
    The bigger challenge is goods vehicles and coaches. Not only heavier, but needing to travel long distances with rapid turnaround.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037
    The way ive heard it cost is getting closer to general affordability, range is getting better, and charging times not awful. So tipping point nears for EVs, but infrastructure will always be tricky.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,558

    DavidL said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    A local, private, all girls school announced this week it is closing in June for good. The decisive factor was the removal of the charity exemption for rates. So rather than raising more money the policy in this case has cost well over 100 jobs and will throw quite a number of kids onto the local authorities. It will not be the only one.

    The inability of politicians, in this case the Scottish government, to recognise that actions have consequences and people and businesses react to being taxed, is truly remarkable.
    None of those kids will go to other private schools? None of the teachers will find jobs in the state or independent sector? Seems unlikely. If a business is only viable when it doesn't have to pay taxes that other businesses pay (and those taxes are required to fund the infrastructure and services that all the businesses rely upon) then why should it stay in business?
    Charities are businesses. Should they be made to pay the taxes that other businesses pay?
    Not if they are doing something genuinely charitable. Most people looking at Eton wouldn't recognise it as a charitable endeavour as they understand it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,558

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    Published by a think tank founded and led by a former Michael Gove adviser.
    I'm shocked.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,546
    The Today programme carried a sober segment on the UAP whistleblower this morning. Most read story in the Guardian. As much as many of you don’t want it to be, this slowly but surely is turning one of the most notable political events of our lifetime.

    Sworn testimony by the guy who used to hand-deliver intelligence to the West Wing for the Daily Briefing. He held higher security clearance then AARO, the body setup last year to explore anomalous objects in controlled military airspace. And so is seriously reported by serious journalists, testimony has also been made by people he named to congress as having first hand knowledge / experience of these programmes. Insinuations from him that murders have been committed to keep the secret out of proper democratic scrutiny. Congressional oversight committee members now demanding answers.

    Maybe it’s all one big setup for reasons that are hard to fathom. Maybe they’ve all been duped by the deep state, again for reasons it’s hard to fathom. Or maybe what they say is true. Whichever, that anyone on a supposedly serious political news blog is talking about anything else defies belief.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,181
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    We also have a market which is unregulated and is utterly chaotic. 40 networks, some overlapping (i.e. unit says network a, but network b actually administers the billing). Ownership and maintenance often isn't clear, with a lot of broken units not being repaired.

    Then we have what is being installed. We need a lot of destination charging - quite simply a socket where you plug your own cable in and draw 7kW at 32A. Not enough of these go in, many have a lengthy process via an app to get them vending, and charge £stupid for the experience.

    Worse is "rapid" charging. A decade ago a 50kW charger was all you needed, as Leafs and Zoes had small batteries. Now? We still see brand new 50kW stations being installed, branded as "rapid" and being charged £bonkers per kW for a charge which means a modern big battery EV needs a lengthy stop.

    I don't need most public charging as I have a Tesla. The odd occasion I have have needed rapid charging on a non-Tesla charger, I feel for the other drivers in any other brand. Even the decent charger networks with maintained kit may only vend at 150kW at best (Instavolt as an example) and many chargers you expect to run at that speed only do 60kW.

    The market needs regulating if any government wants to get people into EVs. You would need investment into the National Grid to supply power onto sites and well-maintained fit for purpose charging that doesn't cost way more than petrol. Otherwise, forget it.
    I agree, for people who regularly drive 250+ miles in a day, and cannot do destination charging Tesla is the best for charging.

    That is not a very big sector of the car market though. I don't think myself unusual in only using a public charger once a year, which in itself presents a challenge to making a charger network viable.
    Is there are thing here that those who most regularly do 250+ miles a day are a particular breed of driver - sales reps, mobile engineers and the like. They very often just want to get to B, get the miles under their belt at somewhat higher speed, they are much less likely to take all those recommended every 2 hour breaks that suit EV charging, preferring the 10 minute hit and run of a petrol station and a mobile Costa machine.

    An EV cramps their preferred driving and pit stopping style considerably and I guess these people are a fair body of the EV complainers.

    This is anecdote and stereotyping based on the sales and engineering types In have known over the years and I guess some have been happier than others to amend their long driving style to accommodate EV.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,612
    I will never get a Tesla because of Musk. I don't want to do anything that will increase his wealth and power.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297

    FF43 said:

    Do we have sufficient generation capacity to charge 3 million electric car batteries on a night when the wind isn't blowing?

    Yes, or we can do. The more interesting question is about transmission. Fossil fuel, whether oil or gas, is cheap to move in bulk across the world by pipeline or tanker. Electricity has to go down copper wires, which have relatively lower capacity and the material to make them is expensive and in limited supply. As we become more electrified our energy sources must be more local to avoid unaffordable transmission costs. Lots of wind, because that's what the UK has. It has implications for geo politics and energy security.
    The whole electricity network will need to be upgraded if EVs are going to be become the norm. There is absolutely no sign of that happening.

    My boss got himself a top of range electric mercedes eqv a year ago. It was very nice, fast and comfortable. He has already given it up as it was impractical and hideously expensive to charge. He had to abandon the vehicle 3 times as it had run out of charge and there was nowhere to charge it.

    I don't think that's necessarily true.

    Let's imagine that there are 20 million EVs on the streets in the UK, and that they each require charging once per week, which consumes 100KWh of Electricity.

    That means that there are 3 million cars, recieving 100KWh per day, which is 30GWh. Averaged over 10 hours, this is 3GW/hour. Which is a lot, but is massively less than the difference between 12pm (30GW UK demand) and 12am (20GW).
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,671
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    We also have a market which is unregulated and is utterly chaotic. 40 networks, some overlapping (i.e. unit says network a, but network b actually administers the billing). Ownership and maintenance often isn't clear, with a lot of broken units not being repaired.

    Then we have what is being installed. We need a lot of destination charging - quite simply a socket where you plug your own cable in and draw 7kW at 32A. Not enough of these go in, many have a lengthy process via an app to get them vending, and charge £stupid for the experience.

    Worse is "rapid" charging. A decade ago a 50kW charger was all you needed, as Leafs and Zoes had small batteries. Now? We still see brand new 50kW stations being installed, branded as "rapid" and being charged £bonkers per kW for a charge which means a modern big battery EV needs a lengthy stop.

    I don't need most public charging as I have a Tesla. The odd occasion I have have needed rapid charging on a non-Tesla charger, I feel for the other drivers in any other brand. Even the decent charger networks with maintained kit may only vend at 150kW at best (Instavolt as an example) and many chargers you expect to run at that speed only do 60kW.

    The market needs regulating if any government wants to get people into EVs. You would need investment into the National Grid to supply power onto sites and well-maintained fit for purpose charging that doesn't cost way more than petrol. Otherwise, forget it.
    Errr... Most Tesla Superchargers max out at 150kw
    Not in the UK. Most are 250kW. And there is a difference between one of the remaining legacy 150kW superchargers and an other brand 150kW charger - the Tesla one will actually output 150kW.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297
    Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    We also have a market which is unregulated and is utterly chaotic. 40 networks, some overlapping (i.e. unit says network a, but network b actually administers the billing). Ownership and maintenance often isn't clear, with a lot of broken units not being repaired.

    Then we have what is being installed. We need a lot of destination charging - quite simply a socket where you plug your own cable in and draw 7kW at 32A. Not enough of these go in, many have a lengthy process via an app to get them vending, and charge £stupid for the experience.

    Worse is "rapid" charging. A decade ago a 50kW charger was all you needed, as Leafs and Zoes had small batteries. Now? We still see brand new 50kW stations being installed, branded as "rapid" and being charged £bonkers per kW for a charge which means a modern big battery EV needs a lengthy stop.

    I don't need most public charging as I have a Tesla. The odd occasion I have have needed rapid charging on a non-Tesla charger, I feel for the other drivers in any other brand. Even the decent charger networks with maintained kit may only vend at 150kW at best (Instavolt as an example) and many chargers you expect to run at that speed only do 60kW.

    The market needs regulating if any government wants to get people into EVs. You would need investment into the National Grid to supply power onto sites and well-maintained fit for purpose charging that doesn't cost way more than petrol. Otherwise, forget it.
    I agree, for people who regularly drive 250+ miles in a day, and cannot do destination charging Tesla is the best for charging.

    That is not a very big sector of the car market though. I don't think myself unusual in only using a public charger once a year, which in itself presents a challenge to making a charger network viable.
    Is there are thing here that those who most regularly do 250+ miles a day are a particular breed of driver - sales reps, mobile engineers and the like. They very often just want to get to B, get the miles under their belt at somewhat higher speed, they are much less likely to take all those recommended every 2 hour breaks that suit EV charging, preferring the 10 minute hit and run of a petrol station and a mobile Costa machine.

    An EV cramps their preferred driving and pit stopping style considerably and I guess these people are a fair body of the EV complainers.

    This is anecdote and stereotyping based on the sales and engineering types In have known over the years and I guess some have been happier than others to amend their long driving style to accommodate EV.
    That's absolutely right; it's "horses for courses".

    But as charging networks, range, speed, etc., all improve, then EVs will become the preferred horse for an ever greater share of the population.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,050
    No hints of antisemitism here...

    The first Tucker on Twitter video is a study in Russian propaganda & attacks Zelensky for being “rat-like” and a “persecutor of Christians” while singling out (((Bill Kristol))). Subtle stuff! ...
    https://twitter.com/Timodc/status/1666233392071835650
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,764
    While having no skin in the game as I don't own any vehicle besides one of those electric scooters.

    Much is said of it depends if you have a driveway. Never seen it pointed out as yet that actually doesn't tell the whole story. Many families , moreso now that children aren't flying the nest so young, will be of necessity multi car households. Being able to charge overnight on the driveway is one thing....being able to charge all cars overnight quite another.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 875

    DavidL said:

    Shocked

    Labour’s tax raid on private school fees could raise ‘very little’

    At best the party’s calculations could be off by £600m, a report finds


    Labour’s plan to add VAT to private school fees is badly flawed and could raise very little revenue, according to a think tank.

    The party has said ending the tax breaks enjoyed by independent schools would raise £1.6 billion, which it would invest in the state sector.

    However, a new analysis suggests that the figure is likely to be much lower and that in a “best case” scenario for Labour, the changes would bring in £1 billion. In a “worst case” scenario, there would be “very little” new revenue.

    EDSK, an education think tank, said the wealthiest parents and the most expensive schools would be the least affected.

    Most independent schools have charitable status, giving them at least 80 per cent relief on business rates. In September 2021, Labour said that in government it would end the charitable status of England’s private schools, raising an estimated £1.6 billion from VAT and £100 million from business rates.

    The think tank’s report claims that the calculations behind the £1.6 billion figure do not take into account a drop-off in demand for private schools if VAT is added to fees or the extra taxpayer money needed to teach pupils who would be moved to state schools.

    The most optimistic scenario is that 5 per cent of pupils would leave private schools and the addition of VAT to fees would only raise about £1 billion a year, it said.

    The more pessimistic projection that 25 per cent of pupils would leave private schools means that adding VAT to fees would raise very little new revenue, especially when additional administration costs for HM Revenue & Customs are taken into account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labours-tax-raid-on-private-school-fees-could-raise-very-little-c2zf7j5l2

    A local, private, all girls school announced this week it is closing in June for good. The decisive factor was the removal of the charity exemption for rates. So rather than raising more money the policy in this case has cost well over 100 jobs and will throw quite a number of kids onto the local authorities. It will not be the only one.

    The inability of politicians, in this case the Scottish government, to recognise that actions have consequences and people and businesses react to being taxed, is truly remarkable.
    None of those kids will go to other private schools? None of the teachers will find jobs in the state or independent sector? Seems unlikely. If a business is only viable when it doesn't have to pay taxes that other businesses pay (and those taxes are required to fund the infrastructure and services that all the businesses rely upon) then why should it stay in business?
    Charities are businesses. Should they be made to pay the taxes that other businesses pay?
    With the exception of a few bursaries (the number of which that are available differ from school to school) Private Schools benefit only those that are able to pay the fees. Their provision is not generally available to the wider public.

    I don't really have a problem with the existence of private education and I think the best way to 'deal with it' is to improve the state sector so that private schools are obsolete. That will take a lot of money and effort. I don't really see why these fee-taking institutions, that only benefit a handful of individuals, should be VAT exempt.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,297

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I bought the original Tesla Roadster, and then a Model S.

    More recently, I bought a Rivian.

    EVs are great if:

    (a) you have somewhere to charge it at home
    (b) you don't regularly do 300+ mile trips

    If either of those things are not true, then either a straight ICE or a plug-in hybrid is perfect for you.

    There's another requirement:
    (c) If you can afford one. EVs are still hellishly expensive compared to ICE cars - unless you go for ones with limitations, such as even more reduced range.
    The cost differential is closing every day.
    The crossover will come by the end of the decade, quite probably.

    People will continue to grouse about the charging problem. It will be solved quickly for the wealthy, which might slow the process of solving it for everyone else.
    The charging problem is rather a chicken and egg one. It isn't economic to build them until there is a market.

    Range anxiety is pretty short lived when owning an EV. How often do you drive more than 250 miles without a half hour break? EV cars are also a pleasure to drive, smooth, powerful and very quick acceleration.
    We also have a market which is unregulated and is utterly chaotic. 40 networks, some overlapping (i.e. unit says network a, but network b actually administers the billing). Ownership and maintenance often isn't clear, with a lot of broken units not being repaired.

    Then we have what is being installed. We need a lot of destination charging - quite simply a socket where you plug your own cable in and draw 7kW at 32A. Not enough of these go in, many have a lengthy process via an app to get them vending, and charge £stupid for the experience.

    Worse is "rapid" charging. A decade ago a 50kW charger was all you needed, as Leafs and Zoes had small batteries. Now? We still see brand new 50kW stations being installed, branded as "rapid" and being charged £bonkers per kW for a charge which means a modern big battery EV needs a lengthy stop.

    I don't need most public charging as I have a Tesla. The odd occasion I have have needed rapid charging on a non-Tesla charger, I feel for the other drivers in any other brand. Even the decent charger networks with maintained kit may only vend at 150kW at best (Instavolt as an example) and many chargers you expect to run at that speed only do 60kW.

    The market needs regulating if any government wants to get people into EVs. You would need investment into the National Grid to supply power onto sites and well-maintained fit for purpose charging that doesn't cost way more than petrol. Otherwise, forget it.
    Errr... Most Tesla Superchargers max out at 150kw
    Not in the UK. Most are 250kW. And there is a difference between one of the remaining legacy 150kW superchargers and an other brand 150kW charger - the Tesla one will actually output 150kW.
    OK - UK-US difference :smile:

    The massive Baker Supercharger station that I pass on the way to Las Vegas is all V2 Superchargers, but I see Europe is almost entirely V3.
This discussion has been closed.