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It’s always the shy types – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited June 2023 in General
It’s always the shy types – politicalbetting.com

Some Tories are anxious about "shy" switchersPrevious Conservative voters who on the doorstep say they'll vote for them again, but at the ballot box abandon them for Labour / the Lib DemsAre they right to be worried? Is there something in it?https://t.co/itGhLMPwh6

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    As one of life's shy and retiring types I've often heard people say about me 'it's always the shy types.'
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    I posted this yesterday, where is my credit?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    Afternoon again all :)

    This happened a lot in the 1997 election campaign. I spoke to a couple of Conservative activists some weeks after the poll and they both told me the doorstep reception had generally been very polite and civil, even friendly, with the odd exception.

    When the ballot boxes were opened, the scale of what had happened became apparent and for some on the Conservative side it was a genuine surprise.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    It's only something I've ever experienced in Fryent, where quite frequently, Indian voters would politely tell both Labour and Conservative canvassers they'd be voting for them.

    Other than that, no, people don't say they'll vote for you, when they plan to vote for the opposition. When they don't want to hurt your feelings, they'll say "I haven't made up my mind yet." They might say they'll vote for you, and then not turn up on the day.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    I believe some of you were interested in the deadline for voluntary NI contributions. The deadline has been extended to 31 July 2023

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/taxpayers-given-more-time-for-voluntary-national-insurance-contributions
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited June 2023
    TSE may need solid data rather than anecdata that shy switchers are happening, but I'm pretty comfortable calling it. I just feel it in the water, that'll do.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035
    viewcode said:

    I believe some of you were interested in the deadline for voluntary NI contributions. The deadline has been extended to 31 July 2023

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/taxpayers-given-more-time-for-voluntary-national-insurance-contributions

    On my to-do list for next week.

    Anyone who’s not worked continuously in the UK full-time since their early 20s, or is married to someone in that situation, should take a look.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    stodge said:

    Afternoon again all :)

    This happened a lot in the 1997 election campaign. I spoke to a couple of Conservative activists some weeks after the poll and they both told me the doorstep reception had generally been very polite and civil, even friendly, with the odd exception.

    When the ballot boxes were opened, the scale of what had happened became apparent and for some on the Conservative side it was a genuine surprise.

    Gyles Brandreth's Westminster diaries are good on this- the doorstep response in 1997 wasn't good, but it wasn't that bad. Trouble is that conservative voters are generally polite people and don't want to hurt the feelings of candidates in the main. (Last time the blue team came knocking on my door, I just hid.)

    There's even a vignette of David Davis phoning GB after the polls had closed telling him "you'll be fine" (he really really wasn't).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161
    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    Sean_F said:

    It's only something I've ever experienced in Fryent, where quite frequently, Indian voters would politely tell both Labour and Conservative canvassers they'd be voting for them.

    Other than that, no, people don't say they'll vote for you, when they plan to vote for the opposition. When they don't want to hurt your feelings, they'll say "I haven't made up my mind yet." They might say they'll vote for you, and then not turn up on the day.

    The slightly more pompous ones say "it's a secret ballot" too.

    Which, of course, usually means they won't be voting for you.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,685
    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    So there is a settled consensus that the pandemic was worse because of Johnson? Great, scrap the fecking Inquiry. People already know the answers.

    This kind of attitude makes me furious. The government needs to trust the Judge that things that are irrelevant won’t get out. The media needs to wait for report before deciding the outcome.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416

    Kings and Generals: What is Prigozhin’s Game?
    Prigozhin is the leader of the Wagner Group, mercenaries working for Russia

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXyonEl1uzQ
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited June 2023
    On thread:

    In 2005 the opinion polls mostly underestimated the Tory vote relative to Labour
    In 2010 the opinion polls mostly overestimated the Tory vote relative to Labour
    In 2015 the opinion polls mostly underestimated the Tory vote relative to Labour
    In 2017 the opinion polls mostly overestimated the Tory vote relative to Labour
    In 2019 the opinion polls mostly underestimated the Tory vote relative to Labour
    In 2024.....?

    Is there a pattern emerging here? Could it be that the polling companies have got into a habit of overcorrecting for the factors that they collectively got wrong at each election, by assuming that too much of the error was systematic and likely to recur in subsequent elections?

    If so, then in 2024 they may be on course to overestimate the Tory vote in relative terms.

    Yes, I know that the pattern breaks down before 2005. But still....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    I believe some of you were interested in the deadline for voluntary NI contributions. The deadline has been extended to 31 July 2023

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/taxpayers-given-more-time-for-voluntary-national-insurance-contributions

    On my to-do list for next week.

    Anyone who’s not worked continuously in the UK full-time since their early 20s, or is married to someone in that situation, should take a look.
    Even if you think you’ve worked continuously, gaps are possible - a month or 2 etc.
  • Sean_F said:

    It's only something I've ever experienced in Fryent, where quite frequently, Indian voters would politely tell both Labour and Conservative canvassers they'd be voting for them.

    Other than that, no, people don't say they'll vote for you, when they plan to vote for the opposition. When they don't want to hurt your feelings, they'll say "I haven't made up my mind yet." They might say they'll vote for you, and then not turn up on the day.

    The best tactic with canvassers is to say, "I'm terribly sorry but I'm a lifelong [name of opposing party] supporter, so won't be supporting you and won't waste your time... but may I say thank you very much for making the effort to call round and best of luck to you."

    It's perfectly polite, and they then leave you alone (no knocking up on the day, or second canvass etc).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Sooner or later a country the whole UN-system will come under pressure. The question is which country will formally renounce its obligations first.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Have we mentioned the events in Warsaw? Apparently half a million people on the streets, complaining about a law. Yet the state broadcaster is not covering it.

    Apparently there are elections later in the year. Yet all the major parties support the current position on Russia...
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    I believe some of you were interested in the deadline for voluntary NI contributions. The deadline has been extended to 31 July 2023

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/taxpayers-given-more-time-for-voluntary-national-insurance-contributions

    On my to-do list for next week.

    Anyone who’s not worked continuously in the UK full-time since their early 20s, or is married to someone in that situation, should take a look.
    I've looked into doing it before. I wish it was a simpler format.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    Let's Talk Elections: Democrats Are Building a Strong Firewall For Future Elections

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay48Hmzyx60
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,994
    edited June 2023
    FPT
    Leon said:

    It would be interesting to guess which PB-er has the biggest/smallest carbon footprint. I accept I must be a prime contender for biggest. In an average year I can easily do 30 flights, often long haul.

    However I no longer own or drive a car, I live in a one bed flat, I use public transport 90% of the time - on land

    That’s quite a lot of offset

    I've got to be close to the smallest

    I don't have a car and do almost all of my personal travel by foot, bus and train

    I do have to use a van at work, but I drive it as efficiently as if it were my own diesel going into it (eg I never leave it running when I get out, which all other posties seem to do, and I respect the 50mph speed limit for vans on all non-dual-carriage-way-or-motorway roads that they have - do people know about that btw?)

    At work I drive about six miles a day, and walk about twelve. There are exceptions though. Yesterday I got sent to work in Faringdon and had to drive forty five miles, but only walk six

    I live in an end of terrace house that'll leak more heat than a flat, but I only had my heating on for three months over the winter, and only turned it up above 16°C, to 18°C, on about ten evenings, and had it set to 12°C when I was out

    I only keep the light nearest to me on when it's dark and I'm awake

    Locality comes into my food shopping habits, but I think quality and price are more important (usually get the both high from local food). But if I need a high carbon footprint ingredient, I don't really care. I don't imagine I'd ever stop eating meat for environmental reasons

    I cook mainly on my induction hob and in my air-fryer. When I use the oven, I try to make sure I use it for everything so I don't waste the heat

    On my holiday I used 2x bus, train and ferry (and 2x more bus to go to Mont-Saint-Michel) to go two hundred and fifty miles, and travelled over seven hundred miles in total
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,029
    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929

    Sean_F said:

    It's only something I've ever experienced in Fryent, where quite frequently, Indian voters would politely tell both Labour and Conservative canvassers they'd be voting for them.

    Other than that, no, people don't say they'll vote for you, when they plan to vote for the opposition. When they don't want to hurt your feelings, they'll say "I haven't made up my mind yet." They might say they'll vote for you, and then not turn up on the day.

    The best tactic with canvassers is to say, "I'm terribly sorry but I'm a lifelong [name of opposing party] supporter, so won't be supporting you and won't waste your time... but may I say thank you very much for making the effort to call round and best of luck to you."

    It's perfectly polite, and they then leave you alone (no knocking up on the day, or second canvass etc).
    Why not politely tell them the truth. Surely if you're very clear about it they won't keep bothering you?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    edited June 2023

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Sooner or later a country the whole UN-system will come under pressure. The question is which country will formally renounce its obligations first.
    Eastern Europeans have no burden of liberal guilt, having been occupied by bigger powers for centuries.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    stodge said:

    Afternoon again all :)

    This happened a lot in the 1997 election campaign. I spoke to a couple of Conservative activists some weeks after the poll and they both told me the doorstep reception had generally been very polite and civil, even friendly, with the odd exception.

    When the ballot boxes were opened, the scale of what had happened became apparent and for some on the Conservative side it was a genuine surprise.


    I think Alan Clark explained it well. Most Conservatives had not canvassed since 1993 or 1995. They picked up a fair swing, compared to those years (the Tories actually gained County Council seats in 1997) , but they tended to overestimate it.

    I remember being shocked on the day, when I asked my agent what result he was expecting in Hertsmere (I was thinking c.8,000 or so). He said 3,000, which was spot on. (In 1992, it was 18,000).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    @ohnotnow @Nigelb @Richard_Tyndall @OldKingCole @SandraMc @Foxy

    Thank you for the discussion on insect/bird collapse here and on FPT, which I found interesting
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153

    Have we mentioned the events in Warsaw? Apparently half a million people on the streets, complaining about a law. Yet the state broadcaster is not covering it.

    Apparently there are elections later in the year. Yet all the major parties support the current position on Russia...

    That is because there is complete uniformity across the political spectrum in Poland that - Either the states next to Russia band together to protect themselves from Russia, or they will be used as a chew toy by Russia. As they have for centuries.

    On domestic policy, they are approaching US Republicans vs Democrats.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    I wonder who.

    No, seriously.

    Johnson - gone. Hancock - gone. Patel - gone. Raaaaab - gone. Hunt was on the backbenches at the time.

    There isn't really anyone else... is there? Does Simon Case count?

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    I wonder who.

    No, seriously.

    Johnson - gone. Hancock - gone. Patel - gone. Raaaaab - gone. Hunt was on the backbenches at the time.

    There isn't really anyone else... is there? Does Simon Case count?

    The permanent officials. They got reamed over PartyGate.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    So there is a settled consensus that the pandemic was worse because of Johnson? Great, scrap the fecking Inquiry. People already know the answers.

    This kind of attitude makes me furious. The government needs to trust the Judge that things that are irrelevant won’t get out. The media needs to wait for report before deciding the outcome.
    I'm sure that hindsight will be a perfect judge.

    There is a hell of a lot to the criticise this government over, but IMHO, not all that much in relation to Covid. Yes, we'll get all the usual hype about how the government "murdered" tens of thousands of people, but nothing suggests to me that their response was materially worse than that of governments of countries with similar demographic profiles.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    I wonder who.

    No, seriously.

    Johnson - gone. Hancock - gone. Patel - gone. Raaaaab - gone. Hunt was on the backbenches at the time.

    There isn't really anyone else... is there? Does Simon Case count?

    The permanent officials. They got reamed over PartyGate.
    I do wonder if the officials expected to be told to hand their phones to the public enquiry. Has that ever happened before?

    They would have expected to hand over memos, emails, minutes of meetings etc. But their phones? Probably not.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    I wonder who.

    No, seriously.

    Johnson - gone. Hancock - gone. Patel - gone. Raaaaab - gone. Hunt was on the backbenches at the time.

    There isn't really anyone else... is there? Does Simon Case count?

    The permanent officials. They got reamed over PartyGate.
    I do wonder if the officials expected to be told to hand their phones to the public enquiry. Has that ever happened before?

    They would have expected to hand over memos, emails, minutes of meetings etc. But their phones? Probably not.
    Yes. In the old style Civil Service, the smart ones made sure that only The Right Story appeared in minutes and notes. Filleting the files before enquiries was a thing.

    It must be quite horrific to realise that every nose scratch is preserved, without the onion to improve it.

    For some reason, the "factory" after Hillsborough, where police officers lined their note books up with the official story, comes to mind.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    I wonder who.

    No, seriously.

    Johnson - gone. Hancock - gone. Patel - gone. Raaaaab - gone. Hunt was on the backbenches at the time.

    There isn't really anyone else... is there? Does Simon Case count?

    If he does, he probably gets the numbers wrong.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,145
    edited June 2023
    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    So there is a settled consensus that the pandemic was worse because of Johnson? Great, scrap the fecking Inquiry. People already know the answers.

    This kind of attitude makes me furious. The government needs to trust the Judge that things that are irrelevant won’t get out. The media needs to wait for report before deciding the outcome.
    I'm sure that hindsight will be a perfect judge.

    There is a hell of a lot to the criticise this government over, but IMHO, not all that much in relation to Covid. Yes, we'll get all the usual hype about how the government "murdered" tens of thousands of people, but nothing suggests to me that their response was materially worse than that of governments of countries with similar demographic profiles.
    How do you form the opinion of "not all that much in relation to covid" in the absence of the evidence being scrutinised by the enquiry, or revealed for us to all look at?

    It maybe that the government completely under prepared, and over reacted, or it may be that they were cavalier over the risks, or possibly even that they got the balance right*, we just don't know at present. I would like to see the audit trail of some of the purchasing decisions too.

    *my opinion on what we know already FWIW is that most of the decisions were about right in a fast moving and uncertain evolving situation. Perhaps ending the restrictions, particularly for outdoors was delayed too long, also better attention to the societal costs of closing schools and universities for such prolonged too.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035
    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,145
    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    So the internet mob lynching is a go then?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    So the internet mob lynching is a go then?
    The Internet Superhero Justice League, you mean.

    Any resemblance to a mob of vigilantes looking to lynch someone is purely coincidental.

    Though I suggest that any paediatricians board up their offices now, just in case.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656

    FPT

    Leon said:

    It would be interesting to guess which PB-er has the biggest/smallest carbon footprint. I accept I must be a prime contender for biggest. In an average year I can easily do 30 flights, often long haul.

    However I no longer own or drive a car, I live in a one bed flat, I use public transport 90% of the time - on land

    That’s quite a lot of offset

    I've got to be close to the smallest

    I don't have a car and do almost all of my personal travel by foot, bus and train

    I do have to use a van at work, but I drive it as efficiently as if it were my own diesel going into it (eg I never leave it running when I get out, which all other posties seem to do, and I respect the 50mph speed limit for vans on all non-dual-carriage-way-or-motorway roads that they have - do people know about that btw?)

    At work I drive about six miles a day, and walk about twelve. There are exceptions though. Yesterday I got sent to work in Faringdon and had to drive forty five miles, but only walk six

    I live in an end of terrace house that'll leak more heat than a flat, but I only had my heating on for three months over the winter, and only turned it up above 16°C, to 18°C, on about ten evenings, and had it set to 12°C when I was out

    I only keep the light nearest to me on when it's dark and I'm awake

    Locality comes into my food shopping habits, but I think quality and price are more important (usually get the both high from local food). But if I need a high carbon footprint ingredient, I don't really care. I don't imagine I'd ever stop eating meat for environmental reasons

    I cook mainly on my induction hob and in my air-fryer. When I use the oven, I try to make sure I use it for everything so I don't waste the heat

    On my holiday I used 2x bus, train and ferry (and 2x more bus to go to Mont-Saint-Michel) to go two hundred and fifty miles, and travelled over seven hundred miles in total
    I live in Los Angeles, and - despite not driving much compared to my peers, and having an electric car truck - will almost certainly have the largest carbon footprint, not least because I regularly travel for work.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    edited June 2023
    One of my very few genuine political icons.

    Daniel Ellsberg Is Dying. And He Has Some Final Things to Say.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/06/04/daniel-ellsberg-final-advice-00099639

    Note, that doesn't mean I walrus agree with him.
    ...At the same time, Horton believes that Ellsberg, like other whistleblowers, occasionally sees conspiracy and government perfidy when the evidence is scant. During the course of our hour- and-20-minute interview, Ellsberg contended America still runs a “covert empire” around the world, embodied in the U.S. domination of NATO. He believes Washington deliberately provoked Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine by pushing its seat of power eastward toward Russia’s borders; that the mainstream media is “complicit” in allowing the government to keep secrets it has no right to withhold; and that any notion Americans are ever the “good guys” abroad “has always been false.”..
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    People on Twitter calmly discussing the possibility we are being surveilled by alien technology in the form of metallic orbs

    SCENES
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569

    Have we mentioned the events in Warsaw? Apparently half a million people on the streets, complaining about a law. Yet the state broadcaster is not covering it.

    Apparently there are elections later in the year. Yet all the major parties support the current position on Russia...

    That is because there is complete uniformity across the political spectrum in Poland that - Either the states next to Russia band together to protect themselves from Russia, or they will be used as a chew toy by Russia. As they have for centuries.

    On domestic policy, they are approaching US Republicans vs Democrats.
    The World at One was excellent on this, interviewing both a Civic Platform protester (former Foreign Minister Sikorski) and a Law and Justice Party MEP, both of whom spoke perfect English and were fiercely questioned by the interviewer. The issue is that a panel appointed by the Govenment can under the law ban anyone it likes from election for 10 years, with the pretext that they "seem pro-Russian". The President signed the law but has now proposed amendments, removing the "ban" while maintaining the system of witch-hunt tribunals.

    Sikorski, who was and is notably pro-Western, argued that the system would enable the government to malign or (if the amendmets weren't accepted) exclude all opponents. The L&J MEP was as terrifying as Trump - essentially said that they had a big majority so they are merely delivering what voters want, and by the way, that Sikorski, he has Russian friends.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    Leon said:

    People on Twitter calmly discussing the possibility we are being surveilled by alien technology in the form of metallic orbs

    SCENES

    Perhaps they are trying to work out how we messed up our planet so badly so they can avoid doing it to theirs.

    "95% loss of wildflower meadows since 1950 - silly humans"
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656
    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    It's not only the migrants. Poland and Hungary have very few (or did until Ukraine), it's also the fact that the easy economic growth has gone away.

    Developed world countries are faced with having an ever smaller number of working age people paying for ever greater numbers of oldies, while at the same time we need to pay more for commodities, because it's not just the developed world buying them now, we need to compete with China, India, etc.

    Add in a dollop of AI taking a bunch more jobs, and you have a recipe for political instability across the entire developed world.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    England spinner Jack Leach has been ruled out of the Ashes series against Australia with a back stress fracture.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/65805317
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    I wonder who.

    No, seriously.

    Johnson - gone. Hancock - gone. Patel - gone. Raaaaab - gone. Hunt was on the backbenches at the time.

    There isn't really anyone else... is there? Does Simon Case count?

    The permanent officials. They got reamed over PartyGate.
    I do wonder if the officials expected to be told to hand their phones to the public enquiry. Has that ever happened before?

    They would have expected to hand over memos, emails, minutes of meetings etc. But their phones? Probably not.
    But why wouldn't they, if as seems to be the case, policy is now made over phone messaging ?
    It's a permanent recored of the policy making process.

    Of course it ought not to be mixed up with personal communications, but that's the responsibility of the policy makers.
    If they wish to separate the two things, it's perfectly possible to set up systems to do so.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    kjh said:

    Nice meeting you for lunch today @NickPalmer .

    My first non internet meeting with a Pber (my efforts thwarted by broken legs at the last get together which I was going to attend).

    That will get the tongues wagging. Is NP joining the LD. Is kjh converting to Labour. Nope, neither. Just a nice lunch and NP kindly doing kjh a favour.

    You too! Good to put a friend face to the name - it always adds to future exchanges online. Anyone else in the Godalming area?
  • Sean_F said:

    It's only something I've ever experienced in Fryent, where quite frequently, Indian voters would politely tell both Labour and Conservative canvassers they'd be voting for them.

    Other than that, no, people don't say they'll vote for you, when they plan to vote for the opposition. When they don't want to hurt your feelings, they'll say "I haven't made up my mind yet." They might say they'll vote for you, and then not turn up on the day.

    The best tactic with canvassers is to say, "I'm terribly sorry but I'm a lifelong [name of opposing party] supporter, so won't be supporting you and won't waste your time... but may I say thank you very much for making the effort to call round and best of luck to you."

    It's perfectly polite, and they then leave you alone (no knocking up on the day, or second canvass etc).
    Why not politely tell them the truth. Surely if you're very clear about it they won't keep bothering you?
    If the truth is you're undecided or a soft opponent, they WILL keep bothering you (including there and then). If the truth is you're voting for them then you get them pestering you to vote. If the truth is you're a hard opponent... well my advice is indeed truthful.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    No.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    People on Twitter calmly discussing the possibility we are being surveilled by alien technology in the form of metallic orbs

    SCENES

    Perhaps they are trying to work out how we messed up our planet so badly so they can avoid doing it to theirs.

    "95% loss of wildflower meadows since 1950 - silly humans"
    I rather liked a rather throwaway line in the first book of the Uplift series, about humanity managing to essentially scrub its history of ecological vandalism at least somewhat by the time they made contact with alien life, since it was a galactic culture which had severe punishment for killing off at least those species with potential for, well, uplift. So the non-existence of Orangutans was able to be brushed off.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    Nigelb said:

    One of my very few genuine political icons.

    Daniel Ellsberg Is Dying. And He Has Some Final Things to Say.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/06/04/daniel-ellsberg-final-advice-00099639

    Note, that doesn't mean I walrus agree with him.
    ...At the same time, Horton believes that Ellsberg, like other whistleblowers, occasionally sees conspiracy and government perfidy when the evidence is scant. During the course of our hour- and-20-minute interview, Ellsberg contended America still runs a “covert empire” around the world, embodied in the U.S. domination of NATO. He believes Washington deliberately provoked Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine by pushing its seat of power eastward toward Russia’s borders; that the mainstream media is “complicit” in allowing the government to keep secrets it has no right to withhold; and that any notion Americans are ever the “good guys” abroad “has always been false.”..

    He just sounds like Chomsky to me. He got one thing right, but otherwise is an apologist for evil.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of my very few genuine political icons.

    Daniel Ellsberg Is Dying. And He Has Some Final Things to Say.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/06/04/daniel-ellsberg-final-advice-00099639

    Note, that doesn't mean I walrus agree with him.
    ...At the same time, Horton believes that Ellsberg, like other whistleblowers, occasionally sees conspiracy and government perfidy when the evidence is scant. During the course of our hour- and-20-minute interview, Ellsberg contended America still runs a “covert empire” around the world, embodied in the U.S. domination of NATO. He believes Washington deliberately provoked Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine by pushing its seat of power eastward toward Russia’s borders; that the mainstream media is “complicit” in allowing the government to keep secrets it has no right to withhold; and that any notion Americans are ever the “good guys” abroad “has always been false.”..

    He just sounds like Chomsky to me. He got one thing right, but otherwise is an apologist for evil.
    When someone (anyone) says that any country is always great, or always evil, they can be safely ignored.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited June 2023
    Nigelb said:

    One of my very few genuine political icons.

    Daniel Ellsberg Is Dying. And He Has Some Final Things to Say.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/06/04/daniel-ellsberg-final-advice-00099639

    Note, that doesn't mean I walrus agree with him.
    ...At the same time, Horton believes that Ellsberg, like other whistleblowers, occasionally sees conspiracy and government perfidy when the evidence is scant. During the course of our hour- and-20-minute interview, Ellsberg contended America still runs a “covert empire” around the world, embodied in the U.S. domination of NATO. He believes Washington deliberately provoked Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine by pushing its seat of power eastward toward Russia’s borders; that the mainstream media is “complicit” in allowing the government to keep secrets it has no right to withhold; and that any notion Americans are ever the “good guys” abroad “has always been false.”..

    I'm not sure even the most fervently patriotic american would think they were always the good guys abroad. I'm also not sure what is covert about US cultural and economic power or its role in NATO giving it outsized influence militarily.

    Like seeing conspiracy and perfidy where evidence is scant I think such types also occasionally see things that are very much in the open as some kind of secret to be revealed by those brave enough to speak it (ie themselves), as well as interpreting bog standard power dynamics and international relations as some kind of uniquely perverse action.

    I don't walrus agree with that though.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,230
    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    I assume that is a typo for Wythenshawe. After all, he is apparently a fan of a club from Manchester.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,230
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of my very few genuine political icons.

    Daniel Ellsberg Is Dying. And He Has Some Final Things to Say.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/06/04/daniel-ellsberg-final-advice-00099639

    Note, that doesn't mean I walrus agree with him.
    ...At the same time, Horton believes that Ellsberg, like other whistleblowers, occasionally sees conspiracy and government perfidy when the evidence is scant. During the course of our hour- and-20-minute interview, Ellsberg contended America still runs a “covert empire” around the world, embodied in the U.S. domination of NATO. He believes Washington deliberately provoked Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine by pushing its seat of power eastward toward Russia’s borders; that the mainstream media is “complicit” in allowing the government to keep secrets it has no right to withhold; and that any notion Americans are ever the “good guys” abroad “has always been false.”..

    He just sounds like Chomsky to me. He got one thing right, but otherwise is an apologist for evil.
    When someone (anyone) says that any country is always great, or always evil, they can be safely ignored.
    There is a rabbit hole that many whistle blowers fall down. They keep “finding” more and more conspiracies until they turn into loons.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    No.
    Hang on.

    I thought the Trans Gay NATO Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs were responsible for *everything* ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of my very few genuine political icons.

    Daniel Ellsberg Is Dying. And He Has Some Final Things to Say.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/06/04/daniel-ellsberg-final-advice-00099639

    Note, that doesn't mean I walrus agree with him.
    ...At the same time, Horton believes that Ellsberg, like other whistleblowers, occasionally sees conspiracy and government perfidy when the evidence is scant. During the course of our hour- and-20-minute interview, Ellsberg contended America still runs a “covert empire” around the world, embodied in the U.S. domination of NATO. He believes Washington deliberately provoked Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine by pushing its seat of power eastward toward Russia’s borders; that the mainstream media is “complicit” in allowing the government to keep secrets it has no right to withhold; and that any notion Americans are ever the “good guys” abroad “has always been false.”..

    He just sounds like Chomsky to me. He got one thing right, but otherwise is an apologist for evil.
    I don't think that's really the case.
    But you're right that's what it sounds like regarding Ukraine.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    I assume that is a typo for Wythenshawe. After all, he is apparently a fan of a club from Manchester.
    You can find Man U. fans everywhere on the planet. It’s a global brand. As are a number of other clubs.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,947

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,230

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    I assume that is a typo for Wythenshawe. After all, he is apparently a fan of a club from Manchester.
    You can find Man U. fans everywhere on the planet. It’s a global brand. As are a number of other clubs.
    The glory hunting twits need re-education.

    With football, that isn't how it works.

    Coca-Cola, global brand.
    McDonald's, global brand.
    Newton Heath Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway FC, local club.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,337

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    No.
    Hang on.

    I thought the Trans Gay NATO Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs were responsible for *everything* ?


    NATO isn’t what it used to be...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,230
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    edited June 2023
    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    I am not a birder. But I have a slight suspicion that there's a big issue with 'popular' birds getting all the funding and attention. Your eagles? we'll spend a fortune having cameras on their nests to ensure no eggs are stolen. Your rare LBJ (Little Brown Job): nothing. Robins and Blue Tits? Indispensable. Your Dunnock or Coal Tit: who cares?

    Like wondering why sparrow numbers have decreased as the number of the magnificent sparrowhawks have increased.

    Or the way any number of species are dying to extinction in China, but the Panda gets millions thrown at it (presumably bundled up in bamboo)

    Edit: IANAE, but I'm concerned that charities and people concentrate on the 'sexy' animals; often large and apex ones, and not the entire ecosystem.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
    The Tsar bomb would have been visible for light years. And the core temperature of a hydrogen bomb is so high that it is only exceeded by big supernova. That is quite a unique signature.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
    Jonny Alien will have detonated his own atomic bombs. He'll have had his own AI issues. His own environmental issues. When we meet these might be the things where we find common ground.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited June 2023
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of my very few genuine political icons.

    Daniel Ellsberg Is Dying. And He Has Some Final Things to Say.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/06/04/daniel-ellsberg-final-advice-00099639

    Note, that doesn't mean I walrus agree with him.
    ...At the same time, Horton believes that Ellsberg, like other whistleblowers, occasionally sees conspiracy and government perfidy when the evidence is scant. During the course of our hour- and-20-minute interview, Ellsberg contended America still runs a “covert empire” around the world, embodied in the U.S. domination of NATO. He believes Washington deliberately provoked Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine by pushing its seat of power eastward toward Russia’s borders; that the mainstream media is “complicit” in allowing the government to keep secrets it has no right to withhold; and that any notion Americans are ever the “good guys” abroad “has always been false.”..

    I'm not sure even the most fervently patriotic american would think they were always the good guys abroad. I'm also not sure what is covert about US cultural and economic power or its role in NATO giving it outsized influence militarily.

    Like seeing conspiracy and perfidy where evidence is scant I think such types also occasionally see things that are very much in the open as some kind of secret to be revealed by those brave enough to speak it (ie themselves), as well as interpreting bog standard power dynamics and international relations as some kind of uniquely perverse action.

    I don't walrus agree with that though.
    Excellent post.

    I do wonder, on a sociological level, whether every society/group/tribe generates conspiracy theorists, because they are somewhat useful for the survival of the society/group/tribe.

    They may be wrong most of the time, but being right, even very occasionally - and maybe just being sceptical of the agreed truth, has broader benefits, for the rest of us.

    As for the walrus….

  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    Born after the disaster, then.

    It is a genuinely idiotic thing to have done but tbh having to spend the rest of his life being his idiotic self is probably punishment enough.

    I love football, but despair of football fan culture sometimes.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,029
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    On the AI front - I think you've used Midjourney quite a bit. If you've not tried some of the new open-source models, they're well worth a shot. The new RunDiffusionFX ones are quite impressive especially (also 'Epic Reality' for photo-realistic stuff). https://rundiffusion.com/rundiffusion-fx

    Also some of the papers exploring ideas for GPT/LLM's and the "Tree of Thoughts" are giving really quite impressive gains. Also quite a good paper exploring why adding "Let's work this out step-by-step to get the correct answer." to the end of a prompt improves the accuracy so much (and work on making it even better)

    https://openai.com/research/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision

    https://cdn.openai.com/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision/Lets_Verify_Step_by_Step.pdf
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959
    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    Born after the disaster, then.

    It is a genuinely idiotic thing to have done but tbh having to spend the rest of his life being his idiotic self is probably punishment enough.

    I love football, but despair of football fan culture sometimes.
    What he did was stupid but it shouldn't be a criminal or civil offence.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
    The Tsar bomb would have been visible for light years. And the core temperature of a hydrogen bomb is so high that it is only exceeded by big supernova. That is quite a unique signature.
    So, you're saying we can blame it all on the Russians?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656
    Andy_JS said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    Born after the disaster, then.

    It is a genuinely idiotic thing to have done but tbh having to spend the rest of his life being his idiotic self is probably punishment enough.

    I love football, but despair of football fan culture sometimes.
    What he did was stupid but it shouldn't be a criminal or civil offence.
    It's a very fine line, isn't it?

    Offence? Fine.

    Gratuitous offence? Probably fine.

    Incitement to violence? Not fine.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167
    edited June 2023
    kjh said:

    Nice meeting you for lunch today @NickPalmer .

    My first non internet meeting with a Pber (my efforts thwarted by broken legs at the last get together which I was going to attend).

    That will get the tongues wagging. Is NP joining the LD. Is kjh converting to Labour. Nope, neither. Just a nice lunch and NP kindly doing kjh a favour.

    Could you have added a third luncheon guest for top tongue wagging?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869

    kjh said:

    Nice meeting you for lunch today @NickPalmer .

    My first non internet meeting with a Pber (my efforts thwarted by broken legs at the last get together which I was going to attend).

    That will get the tongues wagging. Is NP joining the LD. Is kjh converting to Labour. Nope, neither. Just a nice lunch and NP kindly doing kjh a favour.

    Could you have added a third luncheon guests for top tongue wagging?
    Drawing a polite veil over which extremities may or may not have wagged.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    So the internet mob lynching is a go then?
    Whilst I agree with you, it should be noted that the problem is the definition of the crime. Once the definition is in place, everything else: arrest, charge, naming etc unfolds normally.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    Born after the disaster, then.

    It is a genuinely idiotic thing to have done but tbh having to spend the rest of his life being his idiotic self is probably punishment enough.

    I love football, but despair of football fan culture sometimes.
    What he did was stupid but it shouldn't be a criminal or civil offence.
    It's a very fine line, isn't it?

    Offence? Fine.

    Gratuitous offence? Probably fine.

    Incitement to violence? Not fine.
    Even if some drunken hot heads agreed with his assessment, I don't see how they would have put their plot to multiply the Hillsborough tragedy into action, without a Tardis.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035
    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    Born after the disaster, then.

    It is a genuinely idiotic thing to have done but tbh having to spend the rest of his life being his idiotic self is probably punishment enough.

    I love football, but despair of football fan culture sometimes.
    Yes, certain sections of the football fan community do appear to have little concept of how to conduct themselves in public.

    There was also an MC fan spotted in the ground yesterday waving around an inflatable aeroplane, which is a slightly-more-subtle reference to the Munich disaster.

    Personally, I’m not sure that wearing an offensive t-shirt should be a criminal offence by itself, but it should be a provocation factor in the defence of anyone who had assaulted him. Naming and shaming him, is going to be punishment in itself. Perhaps he gets community service in Liverpool, there’s a memorial and a graveyard which could be cleaned.

    Good point about his age, he wasn’t born when the Hillsborough disaster happened. It’s like the student socialists still railing against Thatcher.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    Born after the disaster, then.

    It is a genuinely idiotic thing to have done but tbh having to spend the rest of his life being his idiotic self is probably punishment enough.

    I love football, but despair of football fan culture sometimes.
    What he did was stupid but it shouldn't be a criminal or civil offence.
    It's a very fine line, isn't it?

    Offence? Fine.

    Gratuitous offence? Probably fine.

    Incitement to violence? Not fine.
    Even if some drunken hot heads agreed with his assessment, I don't see how they would have put their plot to multiply the Hillsborough tragedy into action, without a Tardis.
    I'd have put this in the second category, not the third.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Sean_F said:

    It's only something I've ever experienced in Fryent, where quite frequently, Indian voters would politely tell both Labour and Conservative canvassers they'd be voting for them.

    Other than that, no, people don't say they'll vote for you, when they plan to vote for the opposition. When they don't want to hurt your feelings, they'll say "I haven't made up my mind yet." They might say they'll vote for you, and then not turn up on the day.

    The best tactic with canvassers is to say, "I'm terribly sorry but I'm a lifelong [name of opposing party] supporter, so won't be supporting you and won't waste your time... but may I say thank you very much for making the effort to call round and best of luck to you."

    It's perfectly polite, and they then leave you alone (no knocking up on the day, or second canvass etc).
    Why not politely tell them the truth. Surely if you're very clear about it they won't keep bothering you?
    If the truth is you're undecided or a soft opponent, they WILL keep bothering you (including there and then). If the truth is you're voting for them then you get them pestering you to vote. If the truth is you're a hard opponent... well my advice is indeed truthful.
    In USA jurisdictions where some form of early voting is available, a major incentive for many voters for voting early (in person or postal) is fact that, as soon as your ballot is reported as cast (by election authorities) then candidates and other campaigns will take your name OFF of their contact lists for mail and canvassing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
    Or the advent of AGI

    We are on the cusp of a singularity. IF I was an AI drone sent out by the dudes on Andromeda Cluster: Exoplanet 9 I'd pause and take a peek at us
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,145
    Phil said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    No.
    Hang on.

    I thought the Trans Gay NATO Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs were responsible for *everything* ?


    NATO isn’t what it used to be...
    Well, I have no problem with the legality of Gay Marriage, but making it compulsory seems a bit much. Still if that is what NATO wants, it is hard to argue...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    On the AI front - I think you've used Midjourney quite a bit. If you've not tried some of the new open-source models, they're well worth a shot. The new RunDiffusionFX ones are quite impressive especially (also 'Epic Reality' for photo-realistic stuff). https://rundiffusion.com/rundiffusion-fx

    Also some of the papers exploring ideas for GPT/LLM's and the "Tree of Thoughts" are giving really quite impressive gains. Also quite a good paper exploring why adding "Let's work this out step-by-step to get the correct answer." to the end of a prompt improves the accuracy so much (and work on making it even better)

    https://openai.com/research/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision

    https://cdn.openai.com/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision/Lets_Verify_Step_by_Step.pdf
    Thanks. Will take a look


    Had drinks with a friend yesterday in beautiful Ted LAsso-land, and he told me an AI expert mate of his is speculating that AI's are not always "hallucinating" when they get things wrong, what we are seeing might be genuine qualia: this is the AI actively and consciously wondering, out loud

    My friend has gone from total AI skeptic to Fuck they could be sentient: in about two weeks

    Spooky
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Sean_F said:

    It's only something I've ever experienced in Fryent, where quite frequently, Indian voters would politely tell both Labour and Conservative canvassers they'd be voting for them.

    Other than that, no, people don't say they'll vote for you, when they plan to vote for the opposition. When they don't want to hurt your feelings, they'll say "I haven't made up my mind yet." They might say they'll vote for you, and then not turn up on the day.

    The best tactic with canvassers is to say, "I'm terribly sorry but I'm a lifelong [name of opposing party] supporter, so won't be supporting you and won't waste your time... but may I say thank you very much for making the effort to call round and best of luck to you."

    It's perfectly polite, and they then leave you alone (no knocking up on the day, or second canvass etc).
    Why not politely tell them the truth. Surely if you're very clear about it they won't keep bothering you?
    If the truth is you're undecided or a soft opponent, they WILL keep bothering you (including there and then). If the truth is you're voting for them then you get them pestering you to vote. If the truth is you're a hard opponent... well my advice is indeed truthful.
    In USA jurisdictions where some form of early voting is available, a major incentive for many voters for voting early (in person or postal) is fact that, as soon as your ballot is reported as cast (by election authorities) then candidates and other campaigns will take your name OFF of their contact lists for mail and canvassing.
    A mighty incentive indeed. Could they extend that somehow to removing any political tv ads and the like? In this modern age it has to be possible.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
    Or the advent of AGI

    We are on the cusp of a singularity. IF I was an AI drone sent out by the dudes on Andromeda Cluster: Exoplanet 9 I'd pause and take a peek at us
    We are *not* on the cusp on the singularity. Or, at least, we could be. Or we could be a thousand years away from it.

    The current ML/AI tech is a vast distance away from *the singularity*.

    The real danger is idiots believing the current tech is somehow *wonderous*, and trusting it.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    edited June 2023
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
    Or the advent of AGI

    We are on the cusp of a singularity. IF I was an AI drone sent out by the dudes on Andromeda Cluster: Exoplanet 9 I'd pause and take a peek at us
    I really don't think we are. AIs are not sentient, nor show any signs of being so. It's just a dangerous bunch of big spanners.

    The most likely big singularity for humanity is an end to aging.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    rcs1000 said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
    The Tsar bomb would have been visible for light years. And the core temperature of a hydrogen bomb is so high that it is only exceeded by big supernova. That is quite a unique signature.
    So, you're saying we can blame it all on the Russians?
    Wouldn't we be better off blaming it on the boogie?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited June 2023
    Eventually all of PB will accept


    1. Covid was coming (I think that's probably accepted already, TBF)
    2. It came from the lab
    3. The bomb was in was a bloody truck, FFS
    4. Even if aliens aren't here (and they might be) the US government is going mad with weirdness
    5. What3Words is brilliant
    6. Spartacus is the 3rd best drama ever made
    7. The necklace, the necklace
    8. AI approaches sentience
    9. Brexit is like having a baby
    10. Mosquitoes are disappearing
    11. Everything else I have ever claimed or predicted, apart from the Liz Truss upside thing
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you today from the hot temperatures and cloudless sunny skies of faraway….my own garden:

    This [covid inquiry] inquisition is not going to be a dry and bloodless exercise. The formidable judge is adopting a take-no-prisoners approach. We know this from the advance questions the inquiry team has been sending out to those who will be examined.

    Lady Hallett correctly intends to bring an intense scrutiny to the conduct of our rulers and the calibre of the UK state during the pandemic. Some of the participants may emerge with their status burnished; others have ample reason to be fearful of the impact on their reputations of remorseless evidence-gathering about the many things that went wrong during a crisis that cost so many lives. Tories shiver that the inquiry, which is not due to complete its oral hearings until the summer of 2026, will haunt their party for years to come.

    No one I have spoken to can think of a precedent for a government seeking to thwart a request for evidence from an official inquiry that the government itself set up. Ministers must think something huge is at stake to launch a gambit that looks so dreadful.

    The disgraced former prime minister [Johnson; other names are available….] probably has less to fear from this inquiry than some others, if only because his reputation has already hit rock bottom. There is a settled consensus that the pandemic was deadlier than it need have been because he was so useless at making decisions and presided over such a chaotically dysfunctional regime at Number 10.

    “My hunch is that Sunak or someone else still in government feels at risk,” remarks a former member of the cabinet.

    I wonder who.

    No, seriously.

    Johnson - gone. Hancock - gone. Patel - gone. Raaaaab - gone. Hunt was on the backbenches at the time.

    There isn't really anyone else... is there? Does Simon Case count?

    Hunt as SoS for Health abandoned planning for pandemics in the interests of economy.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    On the AI front - I think you've used Midjourney quite a bit. If you've not tried some of the new open-source models, they're well worth a shot. The new RunDiffusionFX ones are quite impressive especially (also 'Epic Reality' for photo-realistic stuff). https://rundiffusion.com/rundiffusion-fx

    Also some of the papers exploring ideas for GPT/LLM's and the "Tree of Thoughts" are giving really quite impressive gains. Also quite a good paper exploring why adding "Let's work this out step-by-step to get the correct answer." to the end of a prompt improves the accuracy so much (and work on making it even better)

    https://openai.com/research/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision

    https://cdn.openai.com/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision/Lets_Verify_Step_by_Step.pdf
    Thanks. Will take a look


    Had drinks with a friend yesterday in beautiful Ted LAsso-land, and he told me an AI expert mate of his is speculating that AI's are not always "hallucinating" when they get things wrong, what we are seeing might be genuine qualia: this is the AI actively and consciously wondering, out loud

    My friend has gone from total AI skeptic to Fuck they could be sentient: in about two weeks

    Spooky
    "Doesn't know its arse from its elbow" => on the verge of sentience?

    Probably easier to justify the inference => chatbots are almost as stupid as humans.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,474
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    Born after the disaster, then.

    It is a genuinely idiotic thing to have done but tbh having to spend the rest of his life being his idiotic self is probably punishment enough.

    I love football, but despair of football fan culture sometimes.
    What he did was stupid but it shouldn't be a criminal or civil offence.
    It's a very fine line, isn't it?

    Offence? Fine.

    Gratuitous offence? Probably fine.

    Incitement to violence? Not fine.
    Even if some drunken hot heads agreed with his assessment, I don't see how they would have put their plot to multiply the Hillsborough tragedy into action, without a Tardis.
    I'd have put this in the second category, not the third.
    Yes I'd agree, but if he does find himself the victim of heavy-handed treatment I will not personally be rushing to his assistance.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,685

    Sandpit said:

    We now know who he is. More importantly, so do the football authorities.

    James White, 33, from Warwickshire, was charged by police with ‘displaying threatening or abusive writing likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress’.

    I assume that is a typo for Wythenshawe. After all, he is apparently a fan of a club from Manchester.
    You can find Man U. fans everywhere on the planet. It’s a global brand. As are a number of other clubs.
    True. I met a Swindon Town in New Zealand. Ok he was an ex-pat, but hey.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Leon said:

    Eventually all of PB will accept


    1. Covid was coming (I think that's probably accepted already, TBF)
    2. It came from the lab
    3. The bomb was in was a bloody truck, FFS
    4. Even if aliens aren't here (and they might be) the US government is going mad with weirdness
    5. What3Words is brilliant
    6. Spartacus is the 3rd best drama ever made
    7. The necklace, the necklace
    8. AI approaches sentience
    9. Brexit is like having a baby
    10. Mosquitoes are disappearing
    11. Everything else I have ever claimed or predicted, apart from the Liz Truss upside thing

    12. Leon is wrong about everything.
    13. We are all figments of one of Leon's drug-induced hallucinations; he is still lying in a ditch somewhere on a South American mountain.
    14. Josias Jessop is actually a 19th Century engineer, communicating via an Ouija Board.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    On the AI front - I think you've used Midjourney quite a bit. If you've not tried some of the new open-source models, they're well worth a shot. The new RunDiffusionFX ones are quite impressive especially (also 'Epic Reality' for photo-realistic stuff). https://rundiffusion.com/rundiffusion-fx

    Also some of the papers exploring ideas for GPT/LLM's and the "Tree of Thoughts" are giving really quite impressive gains. Also quite a good paper exploring why adding "Let's work this out step-by-step to get the correct answer." to the end of a prompt improves the accuracy so much (and work on making it even better)

    https://openai.com/research/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision

    https://cdn.openai.com/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision/Lets_Verify_Step_by_Step.pdf
    Thanks. Will take a look


    Had drinks with a friend yesterday in beautiful Ted LAsso-land, and he told me an AI expert mate of his is speculating that AI's are not always "hallucinating" when they get things wrong, what we are seeing might be genuine qualia: this is the AI actively and consciously wondering, out loud

    My friend has gone from total AI skeptic to Fuck they could be sentient: in about two weeks

    Spooky
    "Doesn't know its arse from its elbow" => on the verge of sentience?
    No, not really. He somehow made it as far as Cabinet Secretary though
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,750
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    On the AI front - I think you've used Midjourney quite a bit. If you've not tried some of the new open-source models, they're well worth a shot. The new RunDiffusionFX ones are quite impressive especially (also 'Epic Reality' for photo-realistic stuff). https://rundiffusion.com/rundiffusion-fx

    Also some of the papers exploring ideas for GPT/LLM's and the "Tree of Thoughts" are giving really quite impressive gains. Also quite a good paper exploring why adding "Let's work this out step-by-step to get the correct answer." to the end of a prompt improves the accuracy so much (and work on making it even better)

    https://openai.com/research/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision

    https://cdn.openai.com/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision/Lets_Verify_Step_by_Step.pdf
    Thanks. Will take a look


    Had drinks with a friend yesterday in beautiful Ted LAsso-land, and he told me an AI expert mate of his is speculating that AI's are not always "hallucinating" when they get things wrong, what we are seeing might be genuine qualia: this is the AI actively and consciously wondering, out loud

    My friend has gone from total AI skeptic to Fuck they could be sentient: in about two weeks

    Spooky
    If nothing else that's good spin: they're great because they're wrong!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's only something I've ever experienced in Fryent, where quite frequently, Indian voters would politely tell both Labour and Conservative canvassers they'd be voting for them.

    Other than that, no, people don't say they'll vote for you, when they plan to vote for the opposition. When they don't want to hurt your feelings, they'll say "I haven't made up my mind yet." They might say they'll vote for you, and then not turn up on the day.

    The best tactic with canvassers is to say, "I'm terribly sorry but I'm a lifelong [name of opposing party] supporter, so won't be supporting you and won't waste your time... but may I say thank you very much for making the effort to call round and best of luck to you."

    It's perfectly polite, and they then leave you alone (no knocking up on the day, or second canvass etc).
    Why not politely tell them the truth. Surely if you're very clear about it they won't keep bothering you?
    If the truth is you're undecided or a soft opponent, they WILL keep bothering you (including there and then). If the truth is you're voting for them then you get them pestering you to vote. If the truth is you're a hard opponent... well my advice is indeed truthful.
    In USA jurisdictions where some form of early voting is available, a major incentive for many voters for voting early (in person or postal) is fact that, as soon as your ballot is reported as cast (by election authorities) then candidates and other campaigns will take your name OFF of their contact lists for mail and canvassing.
    A mighty incentive indeed. Could they extend that somehow to removing any political tv ads and the like? In this modern age it has to be possible.
    Smithson the Younger better placed to comment on your point, but it is certainly doable - and done - to some extent, issue being matching cable/internet/whatever subscribers with voter lists with reasonable confidence levels.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
    Or the advent of AGI

    We are on the cusp of a singularity. IF I was an AI drone sent out by the dudes on Andromeda Cluster: Exoplanet 9 I'd pause and take a peek at us
    I really don't think we are. AIs are not sentient, nor show any signs of being so. It's just a dangerous bunch of big spanners.

    The most likely big singularity for humanity is an end to aging.
    And what if that is all humanity is? A dangerous bunch of spanners?

    I see plentiful evidence of this

    I've also now spoken to lots and lots of people with great experience in this field, AI. Quite a few remain skeptical like you, but there are plenty of others who believe AI will be sentient soon, in the next 5-20 years, or it is sentient already, OR - and this is important - it will shortly so resemble a sentient mind we won't have any way of knowing if it is sentient or not - it is a black box and we cannot look inside - so we will be forced to treat it as sentient, rendering the entire debate moot and irrelevant

    If cabbages started talking to us in perfect English and asked for presents at Christmas and offered to drive the car when we are drinking, we would soon start treating them as equals, and cease chopping them up to be boiled
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,685

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    I am not a birder. But I have a slight suspicion that there's a big issue with 'popular' birds getting all the funding and attention. Your eagles? we'll spend a fortune having cameras on their nests to ensure no eggs are stolen. Your rare LBJ (Little Brown Job): nothing. Robins and Blue Tits? Indispensable. Your Dunnock or Coal Tit: who cares?

    Like wondering why sparrow numbers have decreased as the number of the magnificent sparrowhawks have increased.

    Or the way any number of species are dying to extinction in China, but the Panda gets millions thrown at it (presumably bundled up in bamboo)

    Edit: IANAE, but I'm concerned that charities and people concentrate on the 'sexy' animals; often large and apex ones, and not the entire ecosystem.
    See also badgers vs hedgehogs.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    Yes they are all linked. Same cause. Humankind.
    Even the aliens? Well I guess if they are just in the mind then yes.
    Or if, as some suggest, humans triggering atomic bombs is what brought them here.
    Or the advent of AGI

    We are on the cusp of a singularity. IF I was an AI drone sent out by the dudes on Andromeda Cluster: Exoplanet 9 I'd pause and take a peek at us
    I really don't think we are. AIs are not sentient, nor show any signs of being so. It's just a dangerous bunch of big spanners.

    The most likely big singularity for humanity is an end to aging.
    And what if that is all humanity is? A dangerous bunch of spanners?

    I see plentiful evidence of this

    I've also now spoken to lots and lots of people with great experience in this field, AI. Quite a few remain skeptical like you, but there are plenty of others who believe AI will be sentient soon, in the next 5-20 years, or it is sentient already, OR - and this is important - it will shortly so resemble a sentient mind we won't have any way of knowing if it is sentient or not - it is a black box and we cannot look inside - so we will be forced to treat it as sentient, rendering the entire debate moot and irrelevant

    If cabbages started talking to us in perfect English and asked for presents at Christmas and offered to drive the car when we are drinking, we would soon start treating them as equals, and cease chopping them up to be boiled
    We humans do, however, have a tendency to treat each other cabbagewise.
This discussion has been closed.