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It’s always the shy types – politicalbetting.com

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,168
    Leon said:

    Corbyn fans please explain?

    I mean what are the odds of Jeremy Corbyn meeting up with a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier? He's the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

    For some reason Jeremy Corbyn is posing and smiling in a photo with Norwegian Neo-Nazi Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen



    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665422259165577217/photo/1

    Lysglimt Johansen is the leader of Norwegian far-right political party Alliance - Alternative for Norway. He is a virulent antisemite, a Holocaust denier, and an open supporter of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665423751507263488

    I would be amazed if Corbyn knew who he was.
    Whether it should be his job to do due diligence on stuff like that is another question.
    You believe he literally.... just bumped into him? Really? What are the chances?

    Now then, now then, let’s not get into photos of pols with ghastly people.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    edited June 2023

    I have canvassed, and I can confidently say I both hate it and am not particularly good at it.

    It's very weird knocking on the door of a random stranger and demanding to know their politics.

    I did it for the LDs at the Eastleigh by-election in 2013, which was a bit strange because I wasn't really a LD supporter and lived 150 miles away. Someone asked me about the Rosebowl stadium and I wasn't sure what they were talking about. They were very pleased when I turned up at their HQ and offered to do the job for 10 hours though.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    DougSeal said:

    I’ve never been canvassed.

    Well, you're a seal.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited June 2023
    stodge said:

    DougSeal said:

    I’ve never been canvassed.

    Do you live in a marginal? I live in what has turned from a Conservative safe seat to a Conservative / Lib Dem marginal, with the local council now firmly in Lib Dem hands. And at the last GE we got canvassed by the main three parties.

    None this year, as we did not have a LE...
    We have a local by-election here in Newham.

    Today saw the Labour candidate and 40 helpers going out and about delivering. Have to say I was rather envious - if I got half a dozen out to help I thought I was doing well. I imagine the Epping Conservatives, rather like East Ham Labour, have plenty of helpers they can call on if required.

    Not sure if @HYUFD will be tempted to come and help the Conservative cause in either of the two forthcoming Newham by-elections - the Conservatives have held help from Barking, Dagenham & Rainham and Ilford but their five or six helpers looks a bit weak next to the Labour squadron.

    The Greens are working the Boleyn Ward - will be interesting to see how they get on.
    We have enough to do trying to hold and win back council seats from LDs and Independents and help neighbouring parliamentary marginals like Harlow and Chingford.

    I am sure a few neighbouring boroughs will help but Newham doesn't have a single Tory borough councillor as Epping Forest doesn't have a single Labour district councillor and I doubt these by elections will change that
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,034

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Off-topic, but related to chat on the previous thread. Happened to see this article appear on Ars about bird population decline :

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/06/a-shocking-number-of-birds-are-in-trouble/

    "A shocking number of birds are in trouble
    We know better than ever how to help endangered birds, with notable conservation successes.

    ...

    The North American Breeding Bird Survey, organized by the US Geological Survey and Environment Canada, has enlisted thousands of participants to observe birds along roadsides each June since 1966. Audubon’s Christmas Bird Count, which began in 1900, encourages people to join a one-day bird tally scheduled in a three-week window during the holiday season. There are shorebird censuses and waterfowl surveys, all powered by citizen scientists.

    This wealth of longitudinal recordings started to turn up signs of distress as far back as 1989, Marra says, when researchers analyzed data from the North American Breeding Bird Survey and concluded that declines were occurring among most of the species that breed in forests of the eastern United States and Canada, then migrate to the tropics.

    Thirty years later, Marra and colleagues reassessed the situation using multiple bird-monitoring datasets from North America along with data on nocturnal bird migrations from weather radars. They found stunning losses. Since 1970, the team reported in Science in 2019, the number of birds in North America has declined by nearly 3 billion: a 29 percent loss of abundance. The paper used several methods for estimating changes in population sizes, Marra says, and “they all told us the same thing, which was that we’re watching the process of extinction happen.”"

    It is absolutely distressing. And happening in our lifetime

    So many crises all at once. AI to climate change to extinction to Covid to Ukraine-and-Putin to ALIENS

    Are they all somehow linked?

    A clever dude I met last week said "I get the feeling these are indeed the End Times, but they are also, let's face it, Really Interesting Times"
    On the AI front - I think you've used Midjourney quite a bit. If you've not tried some of the new open-source models, they're well worth a shot. The new RunDiffusionFX ones are quite impressive especially (also 'Epic Reality' for photo-realistic stuff). https://rundiffusion.com/rundiffusion-fx

    Also some of the papers exploring ideas for GPT/LLM's and the "Tree of Thoughts" are giving really quite impressive gains. Also quite a good paper exploring why adding "Let's work this out step-by-step to get the correct answer." to the end of a prompt improves the accuracy so much (and work on making it even better)

    https://openai.com/research/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision

    https://cdn.openai.com/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision/Lets_Verify_Step_by_Step.pdf
    Thanks. Will take a look


    Had drinks with a friend yesterday in beautiful Ted LAsso-land, and he told me an AI expert mate of his is speculating that AI's are not always "hallucinating" when they get things wrong, what we are seeing might be genuine qualia: this is the AI actively and consciously wondering, out loud

    My friend has gone from total AI skeptic to Fuck they could be sentient: in about two weeks

    Spooky
    Are you in LA?
    No, Camden. But off to an amazing place tomorrow....

    Cincinnati

    Eeeek
    Check out Over the Rhine, IF it's still there.

    Was chatting this AM with graduate of U of Cincinnati, who worked as student in a VERY old hardware store in the Over the Rhine 'hood. From when the Queen City (aka Porkopolis back in the day) was the biggest city in US east of the Alleghenies and a magnet for German immigrants pre-Civil War.

    Be sure to quaff at least one ice-cold Hudepohl while in Cincy.

    AND do NOT say ANTHING bad about Pete Rose. Especially while quaffing Hudepohl.
    TBF, I'm not looking forwards to Cincy, but BA are so desperate to get coverage they are laying on the Concorde Lounge, Biz Class, endless free booze, so it could be worse

    More importantly, I have tacked on a personal roadtrip afterwards: Virginia, DC, Maryland, Kentucky, or something like that. I am reading Battle Cry of Freedom as research and it is SUPERB

    I had no idea the South, pre Civil War, had real designs on Cuba and Mexico as new slave states to be added to the Confederacy. Came very close
    Ditto Nicaragua.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_(filibuster)

    also see my addendum previous post
    If you've not seen it, Alex Cox film 'Walker' is well worth a watch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_(film)

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    I have canvassed, and I can confidently say I both hate it and am not particularly good at it.

    It's very weird knocking on the door of a random stranger and demanding to know their politics.

    Might be easier to just wear a picture of Thatcher on your top with a camera on it, then use AI to analyse the instincive reaction of those who see it. You'd only need to have their attention for a single frame, so you could get through a lot more area in a day.

    Any political consultants I am available on a consultancy basis if you want more ideas to bring canvassing into the 21st century (whilst also keeping it in the 1980s as they like).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    edited June 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    "Joel Kotkin
    The end of the Silicon Valley dream
    How the home of big tech lost its way"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-end-of-the-silicon-valley-dream/

    "It is difficult, given what Silicon Valley has become, to convey exactly what it was like in the 1970s and ‘80s. It was a remarkable centre of technology, but also the embodiment of the spirit of capitalism at its very best, as epitomised by garage start-ups like Apple. Greed, of course, is always a human motivation, but the early Valley culture was created by entrepreneurial outsiders who genuinely wanted to make the world better."
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    DougSeal said:

    Corbyn fans please explain?

    I mean what are the odds of Jeremy Corbyn meeting up with a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier? He's the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

    For some reason Jeremy Corbyn is posing and smiling in a photo with Norwegian Neo-Nazi Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen



    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665422259165577217/photo/1

    Lysglimt Johansen is the leader of Norwegian far-right political party Alliance - Alternative for Norway. He is a virulent antisemite, a Holocaust denier, and an open supporter of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665423751507263488

    While I’m prepared to believe that Corbyn didn’t know who he was, the fact that the Nordic fascist had a lot of nice things to say about magic grandpa speaks volumes
    I'm sure the cause of any admiration from the chap will not lead to any self reflection on Corbyn's part.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Andy_JS said:

    I have canvassed, and I can confidently say I both hate it and am not particularly good at it.

    It's very weird knocking on the door of a random stranger and demanding to know their politics.

    I did it for the LDs at the Eastleigh by-election in 2013, which was a bit strange because I wasn't really a LD supporter and lived 150 miles away. Someone asked me about the Rosebowl stadium and I wasn't sure what they were talking about. They were very pleased when I turned up at their HQ and offered to do the job for 10 hours though.
    This tantalising anecdote feels like it could be fleshed out even more!
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    Leon said:

    Corbyn fans please explain?

    I mean what are the odds of Jeremy Corbyn meeting up with a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier? He's the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

    For some reason Jeremy Corbyn is posing and smiling in a photo with Norwegian Neo-Nazi Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen



    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665422259165577217/photo/1

    Lysglimt Johansen is the leader of Norwegian far-right political party Alliance - Alternative for Norway. He is a virulent antisemite, a Holocaust denier, and an open supporter of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665423751507263488

    I would be amazed if Corbyn knew who he was.
    Whether it should be his job to do due diligence on stuff like that is another question.
    You believe he literally.... just bumped into him? Really? What are the chances?
    Are you jealous? Can't imagine you'd turn down the chance of a meeting with Johansen. Or Breivik for that matter.

    I wouldn't assume that picture is genuine. And it's not unbelievable that Johansen would turn up at a pro-Assange meeting and try to get his photo taken with J Corbyn. Certainly what Johansen stands for is what Corbyn has strongly opposed all his political life.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,840

    I have canvassed, and I can confidently say I both hate it and am not particularly good at it.

    It's very weird knocking on the door of a random stranger and demanding to know their politics.

    And you weren't trying to do that over the Christmas holidays.

    Husband is increasingly convinced that Sunak and his ministers, knowing that they're headed into Opposition (or leaving Parliament, for those with majorities of less than 10,000,) will make like John Major or Gordon Brown and hang on by their fingernails until the last possible moment. The prospect of which will doubtless fill the electorate with joy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration. It will be this spectacular event happened and do you want to bleat about how awful it was or do you want to admit life is tough and vote for a party that defends you. And here's another event. And here's what the rightwing tabloids are saying...and so on. They will keep their majority.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Corbyn fans please explain?

    I mean what are the odds of Jeremy Corbyn meeting up with a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier? He's the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

    For some reason Jeremy Corbyn is posing and smiling in a photo with Norwegian Neo-Nazi Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen



    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665422259165577217/photo/1

    Lysglimt Johansen is the leader of Norwegian far-right political party Alliance - Alternative for Norway. He is a virulent antisemite, a Holocaust denier, and an open supporter of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665423751507263488

    I would be amazed if Corbyn knew who he was.
    Whether it should be his job to do due diligence on stuff like that is another question.
    You believe he literally.... just bumped into him? Really? What are the chances?
    Are you jealous? Can't imagine you'd turn down the chance of a meeting with Johansen. Or Breivik for that matter.

    I wouldn't assume that picture is genuine. And it's not unbelievable that Johansen would turn up at a pro-Assange meeting and try to get his photo taken with J Corbyn. Certainly what Johansen stands for is what Corbyn has strongly opposed all his political life.
    There will always be photos of politicians with awful people, and it isn't the case that means they suddenly share all values and views, though opponents will naturally claim it is so.

    Questions really arise if the figures involved are attending/promoting the same event(s), or despite being opposed in a great many ways, are aligned on a particular topic and making the same arguments, especially if one or both are referencing the other intentionally while the do it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Corbyn fans please explain?

    I mean what are the odds of Jeremy Corbyn meeting up with a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier? He's the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

    For some reason Jeremy Corbyn is posing and smiling in a photo with Norwegian Neo-Nazi Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen



    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665422259165577217/photo/1

    Lysglimt Johansen is the leader of Norwegian far-right political party Alliance - Alternative for Norway. He is a virulent antisemite, a Holocaust denier, and an open supporter of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665423751507263488

    While I’m prepared to believe that Corbyn didn’t know who he was, the fact that the Nordic fascist had a lot of nice things to say about magic grandpa speaks volumes
    I'm sure the cause of any admiration from the chap will not lead to any self reflection on Corbyn's part.
    Nor should it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joel Kotkin
    The end of the Silicon Valley dream
    How the home of big tech lost its way"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-end-of-the-silicon-valley-dream/

    "It is difficult, given what Silicon Valley has become, to convey exactly what it was like in the 1970s and ‘80s. It was a remarkable centre of technology, but also the embodiment of the spirit of capitalism at its very best, as epitomised by garage start-ups like Apple. Greed, of course, is always a human motivation, but the early Valley culture was created by entrepreneurial outsiders who genuinely wanted to make the world better."
    A major problem is that the whole area of tech was new and amazing in the 1970s and 1980s. There was Big Blue, and a few other major monolithic companies doing the same old, same old, and nothing else. The environment was rich for innovators. And the cost of entry was low.

    So they innovated. The vast majority of companies failed, but some - like MS, Apple, Oracle, Dell, Intel, etc, survived and thrived. Then came the Internet, and that tech's monstrosities: Google, Facebook, Amazon etc. But as it becomes more expensive to develop new tech to compete, these companies place active burdens in front of competitors.

    As a little-known example, I'm really nervous about Google's power over the Internet standards.

    Can anyone imagine a tiny Cambridge company thinking: "We can't find a microprocessor that fits our requirements. Let's design our own!" and designing an architecture that you almost certainly have on your person at the moment?

    (There's a brilliant book, I think it's called 'Big Blue', about IBM's attempt to make a PC. The one that succeeded was their *third* attempt - and that only succeeded when they gave Don Estridge his own group and permission to operate outside the company's usual processes.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,694

    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Bad news. Leach is not fantastic but he does a job. England really need a spinner. For me Moeen has to be the answer but he is not much of a threat and his 20:20 career has, if anything, made him an even more defensive option rather than an attacking one.
    Play Wood and use Root as the spinner.
    Yes, I suspect they will go the four-seamer route. There's a lot to commend it. You can play Broad and Anderson with less fear for their fitness and stamina, and you can certainly pick Wood for his extreme pace. Robinson is the obvious 'fourth' and has the additional merit of being a decent bat too for a number eight. There are other candidates though and it likely there would be rotation as the series develops. England are lucky to have strength in depth in this department and should use it.

    There is no strength in depth in the spin department. I'm not sure what the issue is with Moen but if he were up to it and available they wouldn't have kept playing Leach, who is reliable but no great threat at Test level. The other spinners - Bess, Jack, and heaven forbid Dawson - don't bear thining about.
    Very wrong on leach vs Moen. Leach has 124 wickets from 30 odd tests. Mo 195 from twice that. Leach gets a serious amount of action on the ball. That he’s played in every match under Stokes speaks volumes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    kle4 said:

    I actually agree with Leon on this one. It's like how people claim AI created music is worthless because it has no real meaning behind it, no true creation, but the fact is you can play human vs AI created stuff next to each other and without being told which is which the listenere will enjoy and feel emotion to both without distinction.

    Ultimately it may well be AI is never 'truly' sentient and just reaches a very convincing imitation of it. But at that point there is no real difference.

    Will AI ever be able to create a convincing Radiohead album...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778
    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Corbyn fans please explain?

    I mean what are the odds of Jeremy Corbyn meeting up with a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier? He's the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

    For some reason Jeremy Corbyn is posing and smiling in a photo with Norwegian Neo-Nazi Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen



    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665422259165577217/photo/1

    Lysglimt Johansen is the leader of Norwegian far-right political party Alliance - Alternative for Norway. He is a virulent antisemite, a Holocaust denier, and an open supporter of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665423751507263488

    I would be amazed if Corbyn knew who he was.
    Whether it should be his job to do due diligence on stuff like that is another question.
    You believe he literally.... just bumped into him? Really? What are the chances?
    Are you jealous? Can't imagine you'd turn down the chance of a meeting with Johansen. Or Breivik for that matter.

    I wouldn't assume that picture is genuine. And it's not unbelievable that Johansen would turn up at a pro-Assange meeting and try to get his photo taken with J Corbyn. Certainly what Johansen stands for is what Corbyn has strongly opposed all his political life.
    Does anyone know, or is prepared to opine, what will happen to The Witcher? Is he getting shipped off to ADX Florence or not? Is it up to eBay Priti now?
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    Most immigrants aren't qualified. Admittedly I haven't seen the stats but this is the perception. Many Brits aren't tolerant at all of foreigners.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778
    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    It's not controlled and the slines are dickhurt over it. Hence hysterical shit about boats in the Mail/Telegraph.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited June 2023

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Corbyn fans please explain?

    I mean what are the odds of Jeremy Corbyn meeting up with a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier? He's the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

    For some reason Jeremy Corbyn is posing and smiling in a photo with Norwegian Neo-Nazi Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen



    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665422259165577217/photo/1

    Lysglimt Johansen is the leader of Norwegian far-right political party Alliance - Alternative for Norway. He is a virulent antisemite, a Holocaust denier, and an open supporter of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665423751507263488

    While I’m prepared to believe that Corbyn didn’t know who he was, the fact that the Nordic fascist had a lot of nice things to say about magic grandpa speaks volumes
    I'm sure the cause of any admiration from the chap will not lead to any self reflection on Corbyn's part.
    Nor should it.
    That's astonishingly defensive and close minded. Self reflection doesn't mean you have to change your view, just, well, to reflect. I thought you were in favour of people reflecting on their views and words more than they do.

    Hypothetically, if a very nasty person praised something I said or did, or used what I said/did to promote their own ideology and politics which are opposed to mine, I'd take a second to reflect on why they did so, and whether the way I put my view or the action I took inadvertently bolstered that nasty person's nasty ideology . But I might be able to conclude that even nasty people don't have universally nasty views, and I cannot help it if the rather broad point I made overlapped with something they found able to endorse.

    I personally don't think that is what happens when people overlap on the extreme ends of the far left or far right on specific issues, I think it is classic horseshoe theory, but people will disagree on the details there. But whilst you don't cast someone out because nasty person X supported or praised them, there's nothing wrong with them wondering why that person did so.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    I refuse to be canvassed.

    I have no voting in tent.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    If anyone's interested, this is the book I mentioned (I got the title wrong):

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-Magic-Politics-Personal-Computer/dp/0246134453

    IMO well worth a read if you're interested in that part of history. It's interesting to think how history might be different if Estridge hadn't died in 1985.

    If you don't want to get the book, the following is a potted history:
    https://uk.pcmag.com/news/135020/project-chess-the-story-behind-the-original-ibm-pc
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Yes, indeed so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    It's not controlled and the slines are dickhurt over it. Hence hysterical shit about boats in the Mail/Telegraph.
    Who the heck are the slines? Google is no help.

    Also, he did say 'feel' we have control, not have control.

    I disagree on that point though, I don't think the Tories at least feel we have control and as you say are very mad about that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    Most immigrants aren't qualified. Admittedly I haven't seen the stats but this is the perception. Many Brits aren't tolerant at all of foreigners.
    I actually think Brits are pretty tolerant.

    But we all know most of the people crossing in boats are taking the piss: Indians were the largest group the month before last, and Albanians have slowed to a trickle from over 12k last year since that new deal came in.

    The much bigger issue is the Med and that's where Europe has the real problem.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    'Extinct' butterfly species reappears in UK
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65804939
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    It's not controlled and the slines are dickhurt over it. Hence hysterical shit about boats in the Mail/Telegraph.
    Who the heck are the slines? Google is no help.

    Also, he did say 'feel' we have control, not have control.

    I disagree on that point though, I don't think the Tories at least feel we have control and as you say are very mad about that.
    I forgot I was on pb.com where all cultural references antecedent to Lesley Judd's departure from Blue Peter are unknowable.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sline

    The word has some currency among my A-level tutees and originates from Neal Stephenson's novel Anathem.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    ydoethur said:

    I refuse to be canvassed.

    I have no voting in tent.

    Bit polarised there ...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Bad news. Leach is not fantastic but he does a job. England really need a spinner. For me Moeen has to be the answer but he is not much of a threat and his 20:20 career has, if anything, made him an even more defensive option rather than an attacking one.
    Play Wood and use Root as the spinner.
    Yes, I suspect they will go the four-seamer route. There's a lot to commend it. You can play Broad and Anderson with less fear for their fitness and stamina, and you can certainly pick Wood for his extreme pace. Robinson is the obvious 'fourth' and has the additional merit of being a decent bat too for a number eight. There are other candidates though and it likely there would be rotation as the series develops. England are lucky to have strength in depth in this department and should use it.

    There is no strength in depth in the spin department. I'm not sure what the issue is with Moen but if he were up to it and available they wouldn't have kept playing Leach, who is reliable but no great threat at Test level. The other spinners - Bess, Jack, and heaven forbid Dawson - don't bear thining about.
    Very wrong on leach vs Moen. Leach has 124 wickets from 30 odd tests. Mo 195 from twice that. Leach gets a serious amount of action on the ball. That he’s played in every match under Stokes speaks volumes.
    Leach is number one choice when he is fit and available, no question. The problem we are trying to address is that he isn't.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    I refuse to be canvassed.

    I have no voting in tent.

    Bit polarised there ...
    I applaud you for trying but that was definitely ropey.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    I refuse to be canvassed.

    I have no voting in tent.

    Bit polarised there ...
    I applaud you for trying but that was definitely ropey.
    Just staking out my position.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    It's not controlled and the slines are dickhurt over it. Hence hysterical shit about boats in the Mail/Telegraph.
    Who the heck are the slines? Google is no help.

    Also, he did say 'feel' we have control, not have control.

    I disagree on that point though, I don't think the Tories at least feel we have control and as you say are very mad about that.
    I forgot I was on pb.com where all cultural references antecedent to Lesley Judd's departure from Blue Peter are unknowable.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sline

    The word has some currency among my A-level tutees and originates from Neal Stephenson's novel Anathem.
    So basically, Amanda Spielman?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    I actually agree with Leon on this one. It's like how people claim AI created music is worthless because it has no real meaning behind it, no true creation, but the fact is you can play human vs AI created stuff next to each other and without being told which is which the listenere will enjoy and feel emotion to both without distinction.

    Ultimately it may well be AI is never 'truly' sentient and just reaches a very convincing imitation of it. But at that point there is no real difference.

    Will AI ever be able to create a convincing Radiohead album...
    Will anyone? *ducks*
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    It's not controlled and the slines are dickhurt over it. Hence hysterical shit about boats in the Mail/Telegraph.
    Who the heck are the slines? Google is no help.

    Also, he did say 'feel' we have control, not have control.

    I disagree on that point though, I don't think the Tories at least feel we have control and as you say are very mad about that.
    I forgot I was on pb.com where all cultural references antecedent to Lesley Judd's departure from Blue Peter are unknowable.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sline

    The word has some currency among my A-level tutees and originates from Neal Stephenson's novel Anathem.
    Nice to know I'm not the only one who reads Stephenson, even occasionally. But don't you mean subsequent?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    Most immigrants aren't qualified. Admittedly I haven't seen the stats but this is the perception. Many Brits aren't tolerant at all of foreigners.
    I actually think Brits are pretty tolerant.

    But we all know most of the people crossing in boats are taking the piss: Indians were the largest group the month before last, and Albanians have slowed to a trickle from over 12k last year since that new deal came in.

    The much bigger issue is the Med and that's where Europe has the real problem.

    Indians? Did they take the HYUFD route from the Persian/Arabian Gulf, or what?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,477
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Bad news. Leach is not fantastic but he does a job. England really need a spinner. For me Moeen has to be the answer but he is not much of a threat and his 20:20 career has, if anything, made him an even more defensive option rather than an attacking one.
    Play Wood and use Root as the spinner.
    Yes, I suspect they will go the four-seamer route. There's a lot to commend it. You can play Broad and Anderson with less fear for their fitness and stamina, and you can certainly pick Wood for his extreme pace. Robinson is the obvious 'fourth' and has the additional merit of being a decent bat too for a number eight. There are other candidates though and it likely there would be rotation as the series develops. England are lucky to have strength in depth in this department and should use it.

    There is no strength in depth in the spin department. I'm not sure what the issue is with Moen but if he were up to it and available they wouldn't have kept playing Leach, who is reliable but no great threat at Test level. The other spinners - Bess, Jack, and heaven forbid Dawson - don't bear thining about.
    Very wrong on leach vs Moen. Leach has 124 wickets from 30 odd tests. Mo 195 from twice that. Leach gets a serious amount of action on the ball. That he’s played in every match under Stokes speaks volumes.
    Leach is number one choice when he is fit and available, no question. The problem we are trying to address is that he isn't.
    There's a very good piece on Cricinfo weighing up the options:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/rehan-ahmed-will-jacks-moeen-ali-candidates-replace-jack-leach-england-ashes-squad-1379861

    Exec summary is that the four-seamer route is the safest and most likely, but don't rule out any of the others, including 18 yo Rehan Ahmed.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    It's not controlled and the slines are dickhurt over it. Hence hysterical shit about boats in the Mail/Telegraph.
    Who the heck are the slines? Google is no help.

    Also, he did say 'feel' we have control, not have control.

    I disagree on that point though, I don't think the Tories at least feel we have control and as you say are very mad about that.
    I forgot I was on pb.com where all cultural references antecedent to Lesley Judd's departure from Blue Peter are unknowable.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sline

    The word has some currency among my A-level tutees and originates from Neal Stephenson's novel Anathem.
    It's explained in the novel as a contraction of "baseline".
  • Local by-election in St Peters Ward, St Albans on Tuesday 13 June.

    This is the centre of St Albans, including the main City Station.

    I am sure that anyone who would like to canvas would be welcome by any of the four parties standing - Conservative, Labour, Green, Lib Dem.

    I expect that the main fight will between the Green and Lib Dems; it is a Lib Dem resignation and the Greens won the ward in May. Conservatives last won the ward in 2015, but you have to go back to 2002 for a Labour win.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,843

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Bad news. Leach is not fantastic but he does a job. England really need a spinner. For me Moeen has to be the answer but he is not much of a threat and his 20:20 career has, if anything, made him an even more defensive option rather than an attacking one.
    Play Wood and use Root as the spinner.
    Yes, I suspect they will go the four-seamer route. There's a lot to commend it. You can play Broad and Anderson with less fear for their fitness and stamina, and you can certainly pick Wood for his extreme pace. Robinson is the obvious 'fourth' and has the additional merit of being a decent bat too for a number eight. There are other candidates though and it likely there would be rotation as the series develops. England are lucky to have strength in depth in this department and should use it.

    There is no strength in depth in the spin department. I'm not sure what the issue is with Moen but if he were up to it and available they wouldn't have kept playing Leach, who is reliable but no great threat at Test level. The other spinners - Bess, Jack, and heaven forbid Dawson - don't bear thining about.
    Very wrong on leach vs Moen. Leach has 124 wickets from 30 odd tests. Mo 195 from twice that. Leach gets a serious amount of action on the ball. That he’s played in every match under Stokes speaks volumes.
    Leach is number one choice when he is fit and available, no question. The problem we are trying to address is that he isn't.
    There's a very good piece on Cricinfo weighing up the options:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/rehan-ahmed-will-jacks-moeen-ali-candidates-replace-jack-leach-england-ashes-squad-1379861

    Exec summary is that the four-seamer route is the safest and most likely, but don't rule out any of the others, including 18 yo Rehan Ahmed.
    Hmm not sure about that especially with Anderson not guaranteed fit, nor Robinson not Wood.. Root as a spinner isn't enough imho.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Many Tory voters are shy switchers?

    They used to be frequent, avid floggers!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    edited June 2023
    I never knew there was a place in an American city called Over-the-Rhine. Learn something new every day.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,217
    edited June 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    Calling it hypocritical is an odd form of collective responsibility. Should the people who didn't emigrate have blocked the path of those who did by building a kind of Berlin wall?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    Biden is at an implied probability of 72% at Betfair to be the Democratic candidate in USPE2024.
    Just been looking at his history of falling over.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-falling-on-stairs-poland-video-ukraine-b2288204.html
    "White House physician Kevin O’Connor (writes) that Mr Biden has a stiff gait as the result of 'significant spinal arthritis, mild post-fracture foot arthritis and a mild sensory peripheral neuropathy of the feet'."
    The party will be nuts to run with Biden, even if it's Trump on the other side and he gets even more psycho. The Republican campaign will show clips over and over again of Biden's senility. Let it go, Joe. You did well to beat Trump and the world thanks you. Now hand the baton over in the public interest.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,217

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
    Both you and Williamglen make a valid point. Those who emigrated are different from those left behind who don’t like immigration. One group doesn’t owe the other anything.

    Perhaps that’s part of the reason these countries are slowly dying. The dynamic, entrepreneurial ones emigrated to seek their fortune. They certainly didn’t mind about living somewhere - like Australia - that was a melting pot of new cultures. The cautious home-loving ones stayed behind, and just want a quiet life. Immigration means change, and challenge, and things not being like the old days.

    We don’t have the emigration problem so much in Britain, at least not these days, because a. unemployment hasn’t been a problem for a long time, and b. we don’t do foreign languages. But our demographics aren’t much better than Italy or Greece. Better, though trending in the wrong direction. But thankfully we have a much more balanced attitude towards immigration.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
    Both you and Williamglen make a valid point. Those who emigrated are different from those left behind who don’t like immigration. One group doesn’t owe the other anything.

    Perhaps that’s part of the reason these countries are slowly dying. The dynamic, entrepreneurial ones emigrated to seek their fortune. They certainly didn’t mind about living somewhere - like Australia - that was a melting pot of new cultures. The cautious home-loving ones stayed behind, and just want a quiet life. Immigration means change, and challenge, and things not being like the old days.

    We don’t have the emigration problem so much in Britain, at least not these days, because a. unemployment hasn’t been a problem for a long time, and b. we don’t do foreign languages. But our demographics aren’t much better than Italy or Greece. Better, though trending in the wrong direction. But thankfully we have a much more balanced attitude towards immigration.
    Apparently the UK had the largest expat population of any EU member state in 2016, but most of them migrated to other Anglosphere countries:

    http://metrocosm.com/eu-diaspora-map/

    image
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,147
    edited June 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    I actually agree with Leon on this one. It's like how people claim AI created music is worthless because it has no real meaning behind it, no true creation, but the fact is you can play human vs AI created stuff next to each other and without being told which is which the listenere will enjoy and feel emotion to both without distinction.

    Ultimately it may well be AI is never 'truly' sentient and just reaches a very convincing imitation of it. But at that point there is no real difference.

    Will AI ever be able to create a convincing Radiohead album...
    Just prompt it with "OK, Computer..."
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    Irish economy enters technical recession following unexpected 4.6% fall in GDP

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-41153617.html
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
    Both you and Williamglen make a valid point. Those who emigrated are different from those left behind who don’t like immigration. One group doesn’t owe the other anything.

    Perhaps that’s part of the reason these countries are slowly dying. The dynamic, entrepreneurial ones emigrated to seek their fortune. They certainly didn’t mind about living somewhere - like Australia - that was a melting pot of new cultures. The cautious home-loving ones stayed behind, and just want a quiet life. Immigration means change, and challenge, and things not being like the old days.

    We don’t have the emigration problem so much in Britain, at least not these days, because a. unemployment hasn’t been a problem for a long time, and b. we don’t do foreign languages. But our demographics aren’t much better than Italy or Greece. Better, though trending in the wrong direction. But thankfully we have a much more balanced attitude towards immigration.
    Apparently the UK had the largest expat population of any EU member state in 2016, but most of them migrated to other Anglosphere countries:

    http://metrocosm.com/eu-diaspora-map/

    image
    Yes, in particular there was one last big wave of UK-born migrants to Australia in the generation after the war, and still today Australia has around a million residents born in the UK.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Carnyx said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    This is why the Tories can and will win the next general election. It won't be about housing or the NHS. It will be about immigration.
    No, Starmer will in in 2024. For sure

    The Brits - especially post Brexit - are notably tolerant. We feel we have control now. So we tolerate higher migration of qualified people

    But it may well be a huge issue by 2029, when a Tory party under, say, Badenoch, or a further right populist party under Fuck knows, could win big

    To realise this, you need to thought-game a situation where we are like Italy, facing 500,000 people crossing the Channel in dinghies, without about 5 being returned every 9 months. At that point we'd probably vote for Hitler
    Most immigrants aren't qualified. Admittedly I haven't seen the stats but this is the perception. Many Brits aren't tolerant at all of foreigners.
    I actually think Brits are pretty tolerant.

    But we all know most of the people crossing in boats are taking the piss: Indians were the largest group the month before last, and Albanians have slowed to a trickle from over 12k last year since that new deal came in.

    The much bigger issue is the Med and that's where Europe has the real problem.

    Indians? Did they take the HYUFD route from the Persian/Arabian Gulf, or what?
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/international-students-immigration-cbsa-ircc-india-1.6782999

    "Dozens of students who could be kicked out of Canada say they were duped by immigration agents in India"
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    ydoethur said:

    I refuse to be canvassed.

    I have no voting in tent.

    Tent poll or Opinion pole?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    edited June 2023
    "Lockdown benefits ‘a drop in the bucket compared to the costs’, landmark study [from Johns Hopkins University] finds

    Researchers say draconian measures taken in spring 2020 had 'negligible impact' on Covid mortality compared with lighter-touch countries"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/04/first-lockdown-prevented-1700-deaths-landmark-study-finds/

    To the surprise of precisely nobody who knew anything about economics and thinks that government can cause problems as well as solving them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    Called the apparent owner of the Cessna that caused the fighter jet scramble and sonic boom over DC, before crashing in southwest VA. She said, “No comment, and get off my phone.”
    https://twitter.com/SollenbergerRC/status/1665467947387691010
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Westie said:

    Biden is at an implied probability of 72% at Betfair to be the Democratic candidate in USPE2024.
    Just been looking at his history of falling over.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-falling-on-stairs-poland-video-ukraine-b2288204.html
    "White House physician Kevin O’Connor (writes) that Mr Biden has a stiff gait as the result of 'significant spinal arthritis, mild post-fracture foot arthritis and a mild sensory peripheral neuropathy of the feet'."
    The party will be nuts to run with Biden, even if it's Trump on the other side and he gets even more psycho. The Republican campaign will show clips over and over again of Biden's senility. Let it go, Joe. You did well to beat Trump and the world thanks you. Now hand the baton over in the public interest.

    To be fair to Biden he is the only Democrat who has proven he can beat Trump and Trump is in his late 70s and hardly young either.

    If the younger De Santis was the GOP candidate a younger Democrat like Buttigieg or Whitmer might be a better candidate but at the moment Trump remains the GOP frontrunner
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    Did we mention Tiananmen today ?

    Here's my essay about the slaughter of protesters that night in Beijing: https://nytimes.com/2019/06/01/opinion/sunday/tiananmen-square-protest.html . It's infuriating to have witnessed a massacre and then have people deny that it ever happened -- and worse when they quote me as saying it didn't happen!
    https://twitter.com/NickKristof/status/1665207852921933824
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    HYUFD said:

    Westie said:

    Biden is at an implied probability of 72% at Betfair to be the Democratic candidate in USPE2024.
    Just been looking at his history of falling over.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-falling-on-stairs-poland-video-ukraine-b2288204.html
    "White House physician Kevin O’Connor (writes) that Mr Biden has a stiff gait as the result of 'significant spinal arthritis, mild post-fracture foot arthritis and a mild sensory peripheral neuropathy of the feet'."
    The party will be nuts to run with Biden, even if it's Trump on the other side and he gets even more psycho. The Republican campaign will show clips over and over again of Biden's senility. Let it go, Joe. You did well to beat Trump and the world thanks you. Now hand the baton over in the public interest.

    To be fair to Biden he is the only Democrat who has proven he can beat Trump and Trump is in his late 70s and hardly young either.

    If the younger De Santis was the GOP candidate a younger Democrat like Buttigieg or Whitmer might be a better candidate but at the moment Trump remains the GOP frontrunner
    Also, a bad back is not senility.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    edited June 2023
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/04/first-lockdown-prevented-1700-deaths-landmark-study-finds/

    "Lockdown benefits ‘a drop in the bucket compared to the costs’, landmark study finds

    Researchers say draconian measures taken in spring 2020 had 'negligible impact' on Covid mortality compared with lighter-touch countries"
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,034
    Andy_JS said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/04/first-lockdown-prevented-1700-deaths-landmark-study-finds/

    "Lockdown benefits ‘a drop in the bucket compared to the costs’, landmark study finds

    Researchers say draconian measures taken in spring 2020 had 'negligible impact' on Covid mortality compared with lighter-touch countries"

    That's very useful to know in retrospect. I wish (hope) it's not going to be used as a "SEE I TOLD YOU" by ill-informed nutters.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,034
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Westie said:

    Biden is at an implied probability of 72% at Betfair to be the Democratic candidate in USPE2024.
    Just been looking at his history of falling over.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-falling-on-stairs-poland-video-ukraine-b2288204.html
    "White House physician Kevin O’Connor (writes) that Mr Biden has a stiff gait as the result of 'significant spinal arthritis, mild post-fracture foot arthritis and a mild sensory peripheral neuropathy of the feet'."
    The party will be nuts to run with Biden, even if it's Trump on the other side and he gets even more psycho. The Republican campaign will show clips over and over again of Biden's senility. Let it go, Joe. You did well to beat Trump and the world thanks you. Now hand the baton over in the public interest.

    To be fair to Biden he is the only Democrat who has proven he can beat Trump and Trump is in his late 70s and hardly young either.

    If the younger De Santis was the GOP candidate a younger Democrat like Buttigieg or Whitmer might be a better candidate but at the moment Trump remains the GOP frontrunner
    Also, a bad back is not senility.
    On a personal level - phew!
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,067

    ydoethur said:

    I refuse to be canvassed.

    I have no voting in tent.

    Tent poll or Opinion pole?
    If anyone canvasses me I tell them to motor home.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    "Immigrants are changing Central Texas barbecue for the better
    A dispatch from the world’s first “Tex-Ethiopian smokehouse”

    https://www.economist.com/culture/2023/06/01/immigrants-are-changing-central-texas-barbecue-for-the-better
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    Good idea?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/04/universal-basic-income-of-1600-pounds-a-month-to-be-trialled-in-england

    "Universal basic income of £1,600 a month to be trialled in two places in England
    Scheme to run for two years and participants will be monitored to see what effect it has on mental and physical health

    Thirty people will be paid a lump sum without conditions each month for two years and will be observed to understand the effects on their lives. Two places in England have been selected for the micro pilot scheme: central Jarrow, in north-east England, and East Finchley, in north London.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/04/universal-basic-income-of-1600-pounds-a-month-to-be-trialled-in-england

    "Universal basic income of £1,600 a month to be trialled in two places in England
    Scheme to run for two years and participants will be monitored to see what effect it has on mental and physical health

    Thirty people will be paid a lump sum without conditions each month for two years and will be observed to understand the effects on their lives. Two places in England have been selected for the micro pilot scheme: central Jarrow, in north-east England, and East Finchley, in north London.

    A poor experimental design. You'd want to guarantee random people an income for life to see the true impact on their career choices. If that seems costly to researchers, well, so is the policy.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424
    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/04/universal-basic-income-of-1600-pounds-a-month-to-be-trialled-in-england

    "Universal basic income of £1,600 a month to be trialled in two places in England
    Scheme to run for two years and participants will be monitored to see what effect it has on mental and physical health

    Thirty people will be paid a lump sum without conditions each month for two years and will be observed to understand the effects on their lives. Two places in England have been selected for the micro pilot scheme: central Jarrow, in north-east England, and East Finchley, in north London.

    A poor experimental design. You'd want to guarantee random people an income for life to see the true impact on their career choices. If that seems costly to researchers, well, so is the policy.
    Well if we're going to trial that, I want to trial the Purge. That's equally credible... 😀
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On May 16th last year, 7-year old Sasha lost a leg in a Russian rocket attack.

    Today she won a gymnastics competition.

    https://twitter.com/SlavaUk30722777/status/1665317864721743872

    The sort of 'Nazis' @NickPalmer and @Dura_Ace warned us about ...

    I'm liking that because stories like that about the human spirit touch me very deeply. I don't think the dig at either @NickPalmer or @Dura_Ace was really called for.
    Given their views on the conflict, I think it's very fair. They have been excusers and appeasers of the aggressors in this evil war. Shame on them.

    I wonder how the little girl *poked* the Russians into attacking her, or how her country yokel dialect caused them to bomb the building she was in?
    War is shit and Russia undoubtedly bears the blame for this one. But different views of how we got here are welcome as are different ideas of how we stop this. Sasha's inspirational story does not prove one side right or wrong in itself.
    Thank you.

    I can't speak for @Dura_Ace, except to note that he's taken in Ukrainian refugees, which is more than most of us. As for me, I'm very clear that the invasion was imperialist aggression, and joined Jeremy Hunt and the LibDem leader in a joint rally to denounce it (and to call for support for the refugees locally). I've always supported our stated aim in the early part of the war to give Ukraine defensive weaponry to halt the invasion. But I disagree with the strategy of step by step escalation, which in my view will simply perpetuate and worsen the conflict and the misery, benefiting only extreme nationalists on both sides and at the expense of ordinary Ukrainians.

    I don't comment on it often here, as people like Josias instantly go ad hominem about it, and since I can't do anything very useful I can't be bothered to argue with shouty anonymous strangers. But there should be space here for more than one opinion without abuse.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Farooq said:

    The new study on the impact of lockdowns is published in a report by the Institute of Economic Affairs out on Monday.

    Hahahaha, get in the fucking bin. The IE fucking A. Big Tobacco think tank, Tufton Street weirdos. Yeah, I'm going to get my health policy information from them, definitely.

    Well, we had prominent Communist Party of GB members advising SAGE and endorsing maximal lockdown.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On May 16th last year, 7-year old Sasha lost a leg in a Russian rocket attack.

    Today she won a gymnastics competition.

    https://twitter.com/SlavaUk30722777/status/1665317864721743872

    The sort of 'Nazis' @NickPalmer and @Dura_Ace warned us about ...

    I'm liking that because stories like that about the human spirit touch me very deeply. I don't think the dig at either @NickPalmer or @Dura_Ace was really called for.
    Given their views on the conflict, I think it's very fair. They have been excusers and appeasers of the aggressors in this evil war. Shame on them.

    I wonder how the little girl *poked* the Russians into attacking her, or how her country yokel dialect caused them to bomb the building she was in?
    War is shit and Russia undoubtedly bears the blame for this one. But different views of how we got here are welcome as are different ideas of how we stop this. Sasha's inspirational story does not prove one side right or wrong in itself.
    Thank you.

    I can't speak for @Dura_Ace, except to note that he's taken in Ukrainian refugees, which is more than most of us. As for me, I'm very clear that the invasion was imperialist aggression, and joined Jeremy Hunt and the LibDem leader in a joint rally to denounce it (and to call for support for the refugees locally). I've always supported our stated aim in the early part of the war to give Ukraine defensive weaponry to halt the invasion. But I disagree with the strategy of step by step escalation, which in my view will simply perpetuate and worsen the conflict and the misery, benefiting only extreme nationalists on both sides and at the expense of ordinary Ukrainians.

    I don't comment on it often here, as people like Josias instantly go ad hominem about it, and since I can't do anything very useful I can't be bothered to argue with shouty anonymous strangers. But there should be space here for more than one opinion without abuse.
    I think the problem here may be that after a year there is no evidence either that Ukrainians are fascists or that their government is planning to bomb Moscow.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    Just noticed that California's population has dropped below 39 million according to the latest estimates.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/03/us/california-population-decline.html
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Farooq said:

    EPG said:

    Farooq said:

    The new study on the impact of lockdowns is published in a report by the Institute of Economic Affairs out on Monday.

    Hahahaha, get in the fucking bin. The IE fucking A. Big Tobacco think tank, Tufton Street weirdos. Yeah, I'm going to get my health policy information from them, definitely.

    Well, we had prominent Communist Party of GB members advising SAGE and endorsing maximal lockdown.
    And if Susan Michie tried to publish a "study" on the Communist Party website instead of in a peer-reviewed psychology journal, we should dismiss that "study" too.
    On the basis of the last 10 years, you can also ignore most of what's published in peer-reviewed experimental psychology.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
    Both you and Williamglen make a valid point. Those who emigrated are different from those left behind who don’t like immigration. One group doesn’t owe the other anything.

    Perhaps that’s part of the reason these countries are slowly dying. The dynamic, entrepreneurial ones emigrated to seek their fortune. They certainly didn’t mind about living somewhere - like Australia - that was a melting pot of new cultures. The cautious home-loving ones stayed behind, and just want a quiet life. Immigration means change, and challenge, and things not being like the old days.

    We don’t have the emigration problem so much in Britain, at least not these days, because a. unemployment hasn’t been a problem for a long time, and b. we don’t do foreign languages. But our demographics aren’t much better than Italy or Greece. Better, though trending in the wrong direction. But thankfully we have a much more balanced attitude towards immigration.
    Apparently the UK had the largest expat population of any EU member state in 2016, but most of them migrated to other Anglosphere countries:

    http://metrocosm.com/eu-diaspora-map/

    image
    Though if you use those figures as % of total population it changes the rankings somewhat.

    Britain with a population of around 66 milllion in 2016 means that 4.9 million expats represents about 7.5% of the population.

    For Poland its about 9%
    For Romania its about 17%
    For Ireland its about 19%
    For Portugal its around 22%
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
    Both you and Williamglen make a valid point. Those who emigrated are different from those left behind who don’t like immigration. One group doesn’t owe the other anything.

    Perhaps that’s part of the reason these countries are slowly dying. The dynamic, entrepreneurial ones emigrated to seek their fortune. They certainly didn’t mind about living somewhere - like Australia - that was a melting pot of new cultures. The cautious home-loving ones stayed behind, and just want a quiet life. Immigration means change, and challenge, and things not being like the old days.

    We don’t have the emigration problem so much in Britain, at least not these days, because a. unemployment hasn’t been a problem for a long time, and b. we don’t do foreign languages. But our demographics aren’t much better than Italy or Greece. Better, though trending in the wrong direction. But thankfully we have a much more balanced attitude towards immigration.
    Apparently the UK had the largest expat population of any EU member state in 2016, but most of them migrated to other Anglosphere countries:

    http://metrocosm.com/eu-diaspora-map/

    image
    Though if you use those figures as % of total population it changes the rankings somewhat.

    Britain with a population of around 66 milllion in 2016 means that 4.9 million expats represents about 7.5% of the population.

    For Poland its about 9%
    For Romania its about 17%
    For Ireland its about 19%
    For Portugal its around 22%
    The numbers for Portugal are quite extraordinary, albeit a fair number are probably in Brazil rather than in the rest of the EU.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
    Both you and Williamglen make a valid point. Those who emigrated are different from those left behind who don’t like immigration. One group doesn’t owe the other anything.

    Perhaps that’s part of the reason these countries are slowly dying. The dynamic, entrepreneurial ones emigrated to seek their fortune. They certainly didn’t mind about living somewhere - like Australia - that was a melting pot of new cultures. The cautious home-loving ones stayed behind, and just want a quiet life. Immigration means change, and challenge, and things not being like the old days.

    We don’t have the emigration problem so much in Britain, at least not these days, because a. unemployment hasn’t been a problem for a long time, and b. we don’t do foreign languages. But our demographics aren’t much better than Italy or Greece. Better, though trending in the wrong direction. But thankfully we have a much more balanced attitude towards immigration.
    Apparently the UK had the largest expat population of any EU member state in 2016, but most of them migrated to other Anglosphere countries:

    http://metrocosm.com/eu-diaspora-map/

    image
    Though if you use those figures as % of total population it changes the rankings somewhat.

    Britain with a population of around 66 milllion in 2016 means that 4.9 million expats represents about 7.5% of the population.

    For Poland its about 9%
    For Romania its about 17%
    For Ireland its about 19%
    For Portugal its around 22%
    I assume most of the 4.9m from UK are in USA, Canada, Australia, NZ.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424
    War Of The Worlds. In real time. On Twitter. June 2023

    https://twitter.com/1897WotW
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870
    edited June 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
    Both you and Williamglen make a valid point. Those who emigrated are different from those left behind who don’t like immigration. One group doesn’t owe the other anything.

    Perhaps that’s part of the reason these countries are slowly dying. The dynamic, entrepreneurial ones emigrated to seek their fortune. They certainly didn’t mind about living somewhere - like Australia - that was a melting pot of new cultures. The cautious home-loving ones stayed behind, and just want a quiet life. Immigration means change, and challenge, and things not being like the old days.

    We don’t have the emigration problem so much in Britain, at least not these days, because a. unemployment hasn’t been a problem for a long time, and b. we don’t do foreign languages. But our demographics aren’t much better than Italy or Greece. Better, though trending in the wrong direction. But thankfully we have a much more balanced attitude towards immigration.
    Apparently the UK had the largest expat population of any EU member state in 2016, but most of them migrated to other Anglosphere countries:

    http://metrocosm.com/eu-diaspora-map/

    image
    Though if you use those figures as % of total population it changes the rankings somewhat.

    Britain with a population of around 66 milllion in 2016 means that 4.9 million expats represents about 7.5% of the population.

    For Poland its about 9%
    For Romania its about 17%
    For Ireland its about 19%
    For Portugal its around 22%
    The numbers for Portugal are quite extraordinary, albeit a fair number are probably in Brazil rather than in the rest of the EU.
    Even after Brexit, the UK is the most popular destination these days (2021 data):

    "The United Kingdom was the leading destination (12,000 entries), followed by Spain (8,000), Switzerland (8,000), France (6,000) and Germany (6,000)."

    But historically it was France:

    "France continues to be the country with the largest number of residents born in Portugal, resulting mainly from the great wave of emigration in the 1960/70’s, with 598,000 individuals.

    Switzerland has 207,000 residents born in Portugal, followed by the United States of America (162,000), the United Kingdom (156,000), Brazil (138,000 in 2010), Canada (134,000) and Germany (115,000)."

    Source: https://www.portugalresident.com/60000-portuguese-emigrated-in-2021-uk-principal-destination/
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited June 2023

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
    Both you and Williamglen make a valid point. Those who emigrated are different from those left behind who don’t like immigration. One group doesn’t owe the other anything.

    Perhaps that’s part of the reason these countries are slowly dying. The dynamic, entrepreneurial ones emigrated to seek their fortune. They certainly didn’t mind about living somewhere - like Australia - that was a melting pot of new cultures. The cautious home-loving ones stayed behind, and just want a quiet life. Immigration means change, and challenge, and things not being like the old days.

    We don’t have the emigration problem so much in Britain, at least not these days, because a. unemployment hasn’t been a problem for a long time, and b. we don’t do foreign languages. But our demographics aren’t much better than Italy or Greece. Better, though trending in the wrong direction. But thankfully we have a much more balanced attitude towards immigration.
    Apparently the UK had the largest expat population of any EU member state in 2016, but most of them migrated to other Anglosphere countries:

    http://metrocosm.com/eu-diaspora-map/

    image
    I wonder where the highest global % (not in absolute numbers) is?

    Lebanon?

    Some small, obscure country whose a) economy fell off a cliff a few decades ago, and b ) had a free movement agreement / liberal visa regime with other more prosperous countries, i'd guess.

    Somewhere in the Caribbean, perhaps?

    Lesotho/Eswatini?
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    kle4 said:

    Westie said:

    Leon said:

    Corbyn fans please explain?

    I mean what are the odds of Jeremy Corbyn meeting up with a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier? He's the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

    For some reason Jeremy Corbyn is posing and smiling in a photo with Norwegian Neo-Nazi Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen



    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665422259165577217/photo/1

    Lysglimt Johansen is the leader of Norwegian far-right political party Alliance - Alternative for Norway. He is a virulent antisemite, a Holocaust denier, and an open supporter of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1665423751507263488

    I would be amazed if Corbyn knew who he was.
    Whether it should be his job to do due diligence on stuff like that is another question.
    You believe he literally.... just bumped into him? Really? What are the chances?
    Are you jealous? Can't imagine you'd turn down the chance of a meeting with Johansen. Or Breivik for that matter.

    I wouldn't assume that picture is genuine. And it's not unbelievable that Johansen would turn up at a pro-Assange meeting and try to get his photo taken with J Corbyn. Certainly what Johansen stands for is what Corbyn has strongly opposed all his political life.
    There will always be photos of politicians with awful people, and it isn't the case that means they suddenly share all values and views, though opponents will naturally claim it is so.

    Questions really arise if the figures involved are attending/promoting the same event(s), or despite being opposed in a great many ways, are aligned on a particular topic and making the same arguments, especially if one or both are referencing the other intentionally while the do it.
    Yes I agree - questions certainly do arise about what was going on if anything with Johansen and J Corbyn. We probably wouldn't give the same answers though. We can maybe agree that Corbyn should give his side of it.

    Anders Breivik of course praised both Jeremy Clarkson and Melanie Phillips in the long manifesto that he murdered 77 people in order to publicise. Phillips's response when asked, if I recall correctly, was that she wasn't going to comment on the actions of an insane person.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    ping said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @Casino_Royale


    "That was a very sobering article.

    Either Europe's centrist parties get a grip on this issue or, eventually, we'll see European polities collapse into autocracy and dictatorship as they become overwhelmed with the problem."

    ++++


    I reckon it is too late. The numbers of migrants are too big and the waves will come too fast

    Brace. I expect several countries to veer into far right politics, or, to be more precise, populism with a large dollop of xenophobia (the actual economics might well be "left"), and regimes prepared to shoot people or sink boats

    We're already there in Hungary, Poland, maybe Greece, possibly Italy if Meloni can't get a grip

    Turning back boats at gunpoint is one guaranteed way to stop them.

    So, if they don't, then sooner or later I expect some regime to try it.

    The Greeks have already been filmed towing boats back out into the Aegean and saying Fuck off, good luck, don't come back

    Eventually the Italians will do the same, and hang the consequences. No society can tolerate 400,000 illegal people simply swarming the frontier (and 400,000 is the prediction for this year in Italy). Meloni's entire career depends on this. This is her THING. If she - openly "hard right" - cannot stop the boats then the Italians will vote for someone prepared to be even tougher

    It will end in gunfire and drownings, but then, it already does: it is just hidden away in Africa - but now it will become visible

    Ironically the Greeks could do with a bit of immigration, since their population is in decline and the fertility rate is 1.3.
    That’s the weird thing. Being anti-immigration in Southern Europe where nobody has babies anymore is true foot shooting behaviour. And oddly hypocritical, in countries that have exported millions of emigrants over the last century to America, Australia and Northern Europe.
    I don't really agree with that. Immigration is about more than numbers. Culture, integration/assimilation are other acceptable things to consider. And I wouldn't say those countries have exported their people. Individuals from those countries freely chose to leave and other countries decided to accept them. I can't see it as hypocritical.
    Both you and Williamglen make a valid point. Those who emigrated are different from those left behind who don’t like immigration. One group doesn’t owe the other anything.

    Perhaps that’s part of the reason these countries are slowly dying. The dynamic, entrepreneurial ones emigrated to seek their fortune. They certainly didn’t mind about living somewhere - like Australia - that was a melting pot of new cultures. The cautious home-loving ones stayed behind, and just want a quiet life. Immigration means change, and challenge, and things not being like the old days.

    We don’t have the emigration problem so much in Britain, at least not these days, because a. unemployment hasn’t been a problem for a long time, and b. we don’t do foreign languages. But our demographics aren’t much better than Italy or Greece. Better, though trending in the wrong direction. But thankfully we have a much more balanced attitude towards immigration.
    Apparently the UK had the largest expat population of any EU member state in 2016, but most of them migrated to other Anglosphere countries:

    http://metrocosm.com/eu-diaspora-map/

    image
    I wonder where the highest global % (not in absolute numbers) is?

    Lebanon?

    Some small, obscure country whose a) economy fell off a cliff a few decades ago, and b ) had a free movement agreement / liberal visa regime with other more prosperous countries, i'd guess.

    Somewhere in the Caribbean, perhaps?

    Lesotho/Eswatini?
    Of the countries on that map, probably Latvia.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    Arise, Dame Jacinda Ardern.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On May 16th last year, 7-year old Sasha lost a leg in a Russian rocket attack.

    Today she won a gymnastics competition.

    https://twitter.com/SlavaUk30722777/status/1665317864721743872

    The sort of 'Nazis' @NickPalmer and @Dura_Ace warned us about ...

    I'm liking that because stories like that about the human spirit touch me very deeply. I don't think the dig at either @NickPalmer or @Dura_Ace was really called for.
    Given their views on the conflict, I think it's very fair. They have been excusers and appeasers of the aggressors in this evil war. Shame on them.

    I wonder how the little girl *poked* the Russians into attacking her, or how her country yokel dialect caused them to bomb the building she was in?
    War is shit and Russia undoubtedly bears the blame for this one. But different views of how we got here are welcome as are different ideas of how we stop this. Sasha's inspirational story does not prove one side right or wrong in itself.
    Thank you.

    I can't speak for @Dura_Ace, except to note that he's taken in Ukrainian refugees, which is more than most of us. As for me, I'm very clear that the invasion was imperialist aggression, and joined Jeremy Hunt and the LibDem leader in a joint rally to denounce it (and to call for support for the refugees locally). I've always supported our stated aim in the early part of the war to give Ukraine defensive weaponry to halt the invasion. But I disagree with the strategy of step by step escalation, which in my view will simply perpetuate and worsen the conflict and the misery, benefiting only extreme nationalists on both sides and at the expense of ordinary Ukrainians.

    I don't comment on it often here, as people like Josias instantly go ad hominem about it, and since I can't do anything very useful I can't be bothered to argue with shouty anonymous strangers. But there should be space here for more than one opinion without abuse.
    to defend myself:

    @NickPalmer , *before* the war began, you said that we shouldn't 'poke' Russia into it. That places the blame, not on Russia, but on us.

    You've made several other claims, including that NATO said they would not expand eastwards - which is rubbish, and another claim the Russians make.

    For someone who sees this as imperialist aggression, you are very, very close to your friend Corbyn's and Stop The War's "Blame-The-West" view. Odd, that.

    And this matters.

    Yes, there should be a multitude of views on here. But when your view is wrong, both morally and factually, expect to get called out for it (as I would my own views). If you want to recant those views, fair enough.
This discussion has been closed.