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Has Sunak got his own lockdown secret that he’s trying to hide? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    edited June 2023

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    theakes said:

    Over the past month 3 local by elections, Swansea, Scarborough and Camden, all showing a very significant fall in the Labour percentage vote, each seat has of course individual issues but the pattern has been the same, drops of 18%, and two each of 20% plus. These accompany the May 4th results when Labour did not do as well as many would have thought. Maybe there is a straw in the wind.

    Labour never seems to do as well in local elections, as the Conservatives do, in opposition. The Conservatives almost always outperformed their poll rating, in local elections, between 1997-2010. Labour have always underperformed theirs after 2010.

    Two polls were conducted in late April for the English local elections in May 2023, by Survation and Omnisis. When the same sample was asked on their voting intentions in a general election, the Labour lead over the Conservatives increased by around 9% compared to the net Labour lead in responses for the local elections. What is instructive about that polling is that it was the same sample being asked, so you are comparing like-for-like.

    Even in 1995, which was Labour's best ever year in local elections, they "only" got 47%, compared to most polls giving them over 50%.

    Part of it is down to Lib Dems and Greens outperforming their poll ratings, in local elections, but it's not the whole story. Survation also found Lib Dem local voters splitting 23%/9% in favour of Labour over the Conservatives, at the GE, and Greens splitting 14/11%, so one can't just add them to the Labour total.

    I do think there is an element among Labour voters who just are not interested in local elections.
    Turnout is around half of that at General Elections. Except in NI, where turnout is always over 50%.
    Do we know what turnout was at the English local elections? I don't remember seeing a figure this year. Normally BBC/Sky do give it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,177
    A
    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:
    Fair point. A few of the top violent scenes from the book:

    - Family murder with Cane and Abel
    - Killing of the firstborn at Passover
    - Bakhmut style obliteration at Sodom and Gomorra
    - Sarajevo style antics in Jericho
    - Just-Stop-Oil protest against the moneychangers in the temple
    - Execution of an innocent man on a cross
    - Terminator-2 / Stranger things vibes in the book of revelation
    You've missed a Lot of incest.
    God was a bit hard core. But after the mid life crisis - had a kid, died in bad circumstances - he does seem to have mellowed. A lot,
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    edited June 2023
    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:
    Fair point. A few of the top violent scenes from the book:

    - Family murder with Cane and Abel
    - Killing of the firstborn at Passover
    - Bakhmut style obliteration at Sodom and Gomorra
    - Sarajevo style antics in Jericho
    - Just-Stop-Oil protest against the moneychangers in the temple
    - Execution of an innocent man on a cross
    - Terminator-2 / Stranger things vibes in the book of revelation
    You've missed a Lot of incest.
    And King David sending someone off to die in the front line so he could shag his wife.
    Oh, and a mass drowning of the entire known world.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    https://twitter.com/Paul_SLG/status/1620720703564812288

    Meanwhile, in Cheshire.

    "Idiots don't oppose planning", PB told me
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Well, the Cup Final is going unexpectedly well so far. Much closer than I expected.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    edited June 2023
    DavidL said:

    Well, the Cup Final is going unexpectedly well so far. Much closer than I expected.

    Don't the rest of us plebs need saving?

    Stupid "national" "anthem" :lol:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Ach, Adair definitely deserved a century there. Excellent innings in hopeless circumstances.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    edited June 2023
    City score inside 13 seconds! OMG!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    DavidL said:

    Well, the Cup Final is going unexpectedly well so far. Much closer than I expected.

    Definitely didn't expect this post to age as fast as that. Going to be a long afternoon.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    This is bloody awful. Well over 1,000 casualties.

    Indian Railways need a massive upgrade. And there's lots of British expertise that could help.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65798640
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156

    This is bloody awful. Well over 1,000 casualties.

    Indian Railways need a massive upgrade. And there's lots of British expertise that could help.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65798640

    Too right! I think their unveiling of a "fast" train-set on the west (ie. opposite) coast a few weeks back might have led to an air of complacency.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vande_Bharat_Express
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    This could be really embarrassing. Should be at least 2-0 already. United are being absolutely stuffed by what you have to say is the greatest side ever to have been assembled in this country.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Well, the Cup Final is going unexpectedly well so far. Much closer than I expected.

    Definitely didn't expect this post to age as fast as that. Going to be a long afternoon.
    You are hereby banned from posting about the cricket until the end of The Ashes.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    This could be really embarrassing. Should be at least 2-0 already. United are being absolutely stuffed by what you have to say is the greatest side ever to have been assembled in this country.

    Their performance against Real Madrid in the home game was probably the best club performance I have ever seen. Frightening.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    https://twitter.com/JohnGlenUK/status/1664897395170107392

    I have written to the Shadow Chancellor, @RachelReevesMP setting out my concerns with Labour's economic plans which would increase taxes and borrowing, and fail to grip the inflation challenge.

    Liz. Truss.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    edited June 2023

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Have either of the FA Cup finalists released a single this year?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774
    Beautifully mown pitch, a green tartan
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,694

    https://twitter.com/JohnGlenUK/status/1664897395170107392

    I have written to the Shadow Chancellor, @RachelReevesMP setting out my concerns with Labour's economic plans which would increase taxes and borrowing, and fail to grip the inflation challenge.

    Liz. Truss.

    Isn’t it more normal for people to ask government ministers important questions?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774
    DougSeal said:

    Have either of the FA Cup finalists released a single this year?

    Is that the subject of your dissertation?

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    geoffw said:

    DougSeal said:

    Have either of the FA Cup finalists released a single this year?

    Is that the subject of your dissertation?

    Yes
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    No. I had 1992 lab, 2010 con, 2015 nom, 2017 con.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    Regarding British stagnation, I hope everyone reads this article.

    https://www.sambowman.co/p/democracy-is-the-solution-to-vetocracy

    British productivity has flatlined for 15 years.
    Longer really, since some of the previous growth was undoubtedly a financial bubble.

    Currently, the country basically refuses to develop housing or infrastructure, and heavily penalises ambition. Energy prices are a massive tariff on British business, and have tripled since 2004. And so on.

    You can see in this article both a thoroughgoing critique of the last x years of management, but also the likely seeds of criticism against the next Labour government.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    edited June 2023
    Penalty.

    But where the eff is he supposed to put his hands when he jumps?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Penalty for United - VAR!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303

    https://twitter.com/JohnGlenUK/status/1664897395170107392

    I have written to the Shadow Chancellor, @RachelReevesMP setting out my concerns with Labour's economic plans which would increase taxes and borrowing, and fail to grip the inflation challenge.

    Liz. Truss.

    "Grip" seems to be the Treasury's favourite new buzzword. I hate it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    United score! 1-1
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761

    https://twitter.com/JohnGlenUK/status/1664897395170107392

    I have written to the Shadow Chancellor, @RachelReevesMP setting out my concerns with Labour's economic plans which would increase taxes and borrowing, and fail to grip the inflation challenge.

    Liz. Truss.

    "Grip" seems to be the Treasury's favourite new buzzword. I hate it.
    Grip, as in lack of grip. Which the Government with an 80 seat majority seems to have forgotten it has.

    This really is embarrassing, this is the most powerful Government on paper since 2005 and yet it acts like it is going to fall any day now.

    People will ask, what was the point in that majority?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    edited June 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    No. I had 1992 lab, 2010 con, 2015 nom, 2017 con.
    I’ve picked them all, except 1992 when I was too young.

    I’m not claiming perfection, I got Brexit wrong, and have been surprised by the success of the Lib Dems in recent by-elections.

    The mood is clearly for change, and “Keir will do”.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    Penalty.

    But where the eff is he supposed to put his hands when he jumps?

    As United fan that looks harsh. I really don't know how you can jump with your hands by your side.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    Ferrari being Ferrari again.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Not a penalty for me, Jeff
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156

    https://twitter.com/JohnGlenUK/status/1664897395170107392

    I have written to the Shadow Chancellor, @RachelReevesMP setting out my concerns with Labour's economic plans which would increase taxes and borrowing, and fail to grip the inflation challenge.

    Liz. Truss.

    "Grip" seems to be the Treasury's favourite new buzzword. I hate it.
    Grip, as in lack of grip. Which the Government with an 80 seat majority seems to have forgotten it has.

    This really is embarrassing, this is the most powerful Government on paper since 2005 and yet it acts like it is going to fall any day now.

    People will ask, what was the point in that majority?
    Or FPTP?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319

    https://twitter.com/JohnGlenUK/status/1664897395170107392

    I have written to the Shadow Chancellor, @RachelReevesMP setting out my concerns with Labour's economic plans which would increase taxes and borrowing, and fail to grip the inflation challenge.

    Liz. Truss.

    "Grip" seems to be the Treasury's favourite new buzzword. I hate it.
    Remind us what Truss’s proposal for inflation was? I seem to recall it involved expansionary, unfunded tax cuts.

    She’s bonkers.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    You know I’m tired when I cannot do a Hand job gag about the cricket.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036

    You know I’m tired when I cannot do a Hand job gag about the cricket.

    You’re better at Tongue jobs than Hand jobs, surely?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    Bad Hand job from the Irish batter there.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,477
    DavidL said:

    Penalty.

    But where the eff is he supposed to put his hands when he jumps?

    As United fan that looks harsh. I really don't know how you can jump with your hands by your side.
    Soccer really hasn't figured how to use VAR.

    It should be there to correct obvious errors. Few refs would have given that, because it was anything but obvious.

    The FA needs to study how it is used in Rugby and Cricket. They won't though.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    https://twitter.com/JohnGlenUK/status/1664897395170107392

    I have written to the Shadow Chancellor, @RachelReevesMP setting out my concerns with Labour's economic plans which would increase taxes and borrowing, and fail to grip the inflation challenge.

    Liz. Truss.

    Isn’t it more normal for people to ask government ministers important questions?
    Getting ready for late next year.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    DavidL said:

    Penalty.

    But where the eff is he supposed to put his hands when he jumps?

    As United fan that looks harsh. I really don't know how you can jump with your hands by your side.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MO9B2jLOgw
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303

    https://twitter.com/JohnGlenUK/status/1664897395170107392

    I have written to the Shadow Chancellor, @RachelReevesMP setting out my concerns with Labour's economic plans which would increase taxes and borrowing, and fail to grip the inflation challenge.

    Liz. Truss.

    "Grip" seems to be the Treasury's favourite new buzzword. I hate it.
    Remind us what Truss’s proposal for inflation was? I seem to recall it involved expansionary, unfunded tax cuts.

    She’s bonkers.
    Truss has nothing to do with it. Horse was just using her name to discredit the Tories.

    As it happens, I think she was right in broad terms that higher interest rates combined with looser fiscal policy would have been a good idea.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,011
    edited June 2023

    Regarding British stagnation, I hope everyone reads this article.

    https://www.sambowman.co/p/democracy-is-the-solution-to-vetocracy

    British productivity has flatlined for 15 years.
    Longer really, since some of the previous growth was undoubtedly a financial bubble.

    Currently, the country basically refuses to develop housing or infrastructure, and heavily penalises ambition. Energy prices are a massive tariff on British business, and have tripled since 2004. And so on.

    You can see in this article both a thoroughgoing critique of the last x years of management, but also the likely seeds of criticism against the next Labour government.

    Is this not what I have been saying for months, voting for more of the same whether tory, labour or lib dem isnt going to help. I get told I am angry and yes I am because the tribals keep telling me vote for their party when all they offer is the same old shit we had the last 4 decades.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156

    You know I’m tired when I cannot do a Hand job gag about the cricket.

    You sound de-fellated.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    The handball rule is horribly over literally interpreted in the box when defenders are jumping for the ball
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,840

    This is bloody awful. Well over 1,000 casualties.

    Indian Railways need a massive upgrade. And there's lots of British expertise that could help.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65798640

    To be fair, British trains have an excellent safety record. Doubtless aided by the fact that, owing to endless rounds of both engineering works and strikes, they are increasingly incapable of carrying any passengers at all.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    1-1 at Half-term
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    10 race ban for George Russell.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,694
    Pulpstar said:

    The handball rule is horribly over literally interpreted in the box when defenders are jumping for the ball

    It’s tricky. In an ideal world hand ball would just be if a player deliberately handled the ball. But too often the hand or arm is hit by the ball and it’s deflected, potentially affecting the play. So now we have a ridiculous situation with the arm needing to be in a natural position, whatever that means.

    Combine this with tv replays and you get penalties like this that no-one thinks should be a pen.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,840
    I was discussing with the husband earlier today how sticky inflation has proven to be - far more so than I anticipated when it was first taking off - and both how much longer it's going to drag on for, and how high the Bank may feel itself forced to raise interest rates to tame it.

    I don't suppose that several more years of this, forcing sustained interest rates of 8% or even 10% and a resultant huge collapse of house prices, is at all possible? That would suit us down to the ground.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,752
    edited June 2023
    pigeon said:

    I was discussing with the husband earlier today how sticky inflation has proven to be - far more so than I anticipated when it was first taking off - and both how much longer it's going to drag on for, and how high the Bank may feel itself forced to raise interest rates to tame it.

    I don't suppose that several more years of this, forcing sustained interest rates of 8% or even 10% and a resultant huge collapse of house prices, is at all possible? That would suit us down to the ground.

    10% interest rate should result in a big collapse of something, for sure.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited June 2023
    Sean_F said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
    The winner in 2015 and 2017 wasn't, just a majority was not expected in the former and was in the latter and it ended up the reverse.


    Only in 1992 did the man who was expected to become PM, Kinnock, fail to win and Major was the shock re elected winner
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    edited June 2023

    Pulpstar said:

    The handball rule is horribly over literally interpreted in the box when defenders are jumping for the ball

    It’s tricky. In an ideal world hand ball would just be if a player deliberately handled the ball. But too often the hand or arm is hit by the ball and it’s deflected, potentially affecting the play. So now we have a ridiculous situation with the arm needing to be in a natural position, whatever that means.

    Combine this with tv replays and you get penalties like this that no-one thinks should be a pen.
    Couldn't a non-intentional handball be just a free kick instead of a penalty?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    pigeon said:

    This is bloody awful. Well over 1,000 casualties.

    Indian Railways need a massive upgrade. And there's lots of British expertise that could help.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65798640

    To be fair, British trains have an excellent safety record. Doubtless aided by the fact that, owing to endless rounds of both engineering works and strikes, they are increasingly incapable of carrying any passengers at all.
    Britain's newest train station, opened last Saturday. Pics by yours truly last Tuesday:







  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,477
    Andy_JS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The handball rule is horribly over literally interpreted in the box when defenders are jumping for the ball

    It’s tricky. In an ideal world hand ball would just be if a player deliberately handled the ball. But too often the hand or arm is hit by the ball and it’s deflected, potentially affecting the play. So now we have a ridiculous situation with the arm needing to be in a natural position, whatever that means.

    Combine this with tv replays and you get penalties like this that no-one thinks should be a pen.
    Couldn't a non-intentional handball be just a free kick instead of a penalty?
    It's not complicated. You use your common sense, and appoint referees who have some.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,840

    pigeon said:

    This is bloody awful. Well over 1,000 casualties.

    Indian Railways need a massive upgrade. And there's lots of British expertise that could help.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65798640

    To be fair, British trains have an excellent safety record. Doubtless aided by the fact that, owing to endless rounds of both engineering works and strikes, they are increasingly incapable of carrying any passengers at all.
    Britain's newest train station, opened last Saturday. Pics by yours truly last Tuesday:







    Are you the only one there? I rest my case. :smile:
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401

    pigeon said:

    This is bloody awful. Well over 1,000 casualties.

    Indian Railways need a massive upgrade. And there's lots of British expertise that could help.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65798640

    To be fair, British trains have an excellent safety record. Doubtless aided by the fact that, owing to endless rounds of both engineering works and strikes, they are increasingly incapable of carrying any passengers at all.
    Britain's newest train station, opened last Saturday. Pics by yours truly last Tuesday:







    Is that the line south to Bramley/Mortimer?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916
    edited June 2023

    pigeon said:

    This is bloody awful. Well over 1,000 casualties.

    Indian Railways need a massive upgrade. And there's lots of British expertise that could help.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65798640

    To be fair, British trains have an excellent safety record. Doubtless aided by the fact that, owing to endless rounds of both engineering works and strikes, they are increasingly incapable of carrying any passengers at all.
    Britain's newest train station, opened last Saturday. Pics by yours truly last Tuesday:
    ...
    From Google maps it looks like the station is almost surrounded by water...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,993
    Pagan2 said:

    Regarding British stagnation, I hope everyone reads this article.

    https://www.sambowman.co/p/democracy-is-the-solution-to-vetocracy

    British productivity has flatlined for 15 years.
    Longer really, since some of the previous growth was undoubtedly a financial bubble.

    Currently, the country basically refuses to develop housing or infrastructure, and heavily penalises ambition. Energy prices are a massive tariff on British business, and have tripled since 2004. And so on.

    You can see in this article both a thoroughgoing critique of the last x years of management, but also the likely seeds of criticism against the next Labour government.

    Is this not what I have been saying for months, voting for more of the same whether tory, labour or lib dem isnt going to help. I get told I am angry and yes I am because the tribals keep telling me vote for their party when all they offer is the same old shit we had the last 4 decades.
    The Bowman article is well worth reading and makes some valuable points but it misses what are very often the root causes of local objections to proposed developments.

    There's a perception "NIMBYs" are opposed to any development anywhere and especially on anything green - that's not usually the case. What local people object to are developments which will create an unsupportable burden on pre-existing local infrastructures and networks without the developer making any compensatory effort to strengthen those networks in response.

    This is about "soft" infrastructure rather than whether the sewage, water, electricity, wifi and other utility distribution infrastructures can cope or be enhanced to cope with the additional load. This is about provision of GPs, schools, shops, transport, places to go, eat, sit etc.

    If you bring an extra 1,000 or more people into an area where will they go to see a GP? Answer - unless a new health centre is built, they'll run to the existing GP surgeries and overwhelm them. What about schools for the children and places for the elderly? As I see the new blocks going up near Plaistow, West Ham and Bow Road stations, my first thought is how many of these new people will want to use the tube and how overcrowded will the network become?

    Planning and development needs to be not just about building houses but also about building new communities and strengthening existing communities, ensuring the standard of life and living for all is improved by and through development and it's not a licence for developers to print money.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    stodge said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Regarding British stagnation, I hope everyone reads this article.

    https://www.sambowman.co/p/democracy-is-the-solution-to-vetocracy

    British productivity has flatlined for 15 years.
    Longer really, since some of the previous growth was undoubtedly a financial bubble.

    Currently, the country basically refuses to develop housing or infrastructure, and heavily penalises ambition. Energy prices are a massive tariff on British business, and have tripled since 2004. And so on.

    You can see in this article both a thoroughgoing critique of the last x years of management, but also the likely seeds of criticism against the next Labour government.

    Is this not what I have been saying for months, voting for more of the same whether tory, labour or lib dem isnt going to help. I get told I am angry and yes I am because the tribals keep telling me vote for their party when all they offer is the same old shit we had the last 4 decades.
    The Bowman article is well worth reading and makes some valuable points but it misses what are very often the root causes of local objections to proposed developments.

    There's a perception "NIMBYs" are opposed to any development anywhere and especially on anything green - that's not usually the case. What local people object to are developments which will create an unsupportable burden on pre-existing local infrastructures and networks without the developer making any compensatory effort to strengthen those networks in response.

    This is about "soft" infrastructure rather than whether the sewage, water, electricity, wifi and other utility distribution infrastructures can cope or be enhanced to cope with the additional load. This is about provision of GPs, schools, shops, transport, places to go, eat, sit etc.

    If you bring an extra 1,000 or more people into an area where will they go to see a GP? Answer - unless a new health centre is built, they'll run to the existing GP surgeries and overwhelm them. What about schools for the children and places for the elderly? As I see the new blocks going up near Plaistow, West Ham and Bow Road stations, my first thought is how many of these new people will want to use the tube and how overcrowded will the network become?

    Planning and development needs to be not just about building houses but also about building new communities and strengthening existing communities, ensuring the standard of life and living for all is improved by and through development and it's not a licence for developers to print money.
    I agree with this.
    But I also agree with his general critique of “vetocracy” Britain.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,993
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
    The winner in 2015 and 2017 wasn't, just a majority was not expected in the former and was in the latter and it ended up the reverse.


    Only in 1992 did the man who was expected to become PM, Kinnock, fail to win and Major was the shock re elected winner
    Going further back, I think 1970 was a surprise given the size of the Labour majority as was February 1974 as it was generally thought anti-union sentiment would return Heath and the Conservatives with a small majority.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,840

    pigeon said:

    I was discussing with the husband earlier today how sticky inflation has proven to be - far more so than I anticipated when it was first taking off - and both how much longer it's going to drag on for, and how high the Bank may feel itself forced to raise interest rates to tame it.

    I don't suppose that several more years of this, forcing sustained interest rates of 8% or even 10% and a resultant huge collapse of house prices, is at all possible? That would suit us down to the ground.

    10% interest rate should result in a big collapse of something, for sure.
    Well, we're desperate. OK, perhaps not exactly desperate, but frustrated. Trapped in an expensive part of the world because we're chained to our jobs, and stuck in a one bedroom flat which is essentially too bloody small because we're getting older and don't want to roll the dice on an astronomical new mortgage. We also have quite a lot of cash - though still not enough given the exorbitant sums being demanded by sellers - and would like to trade up to something bigger. We don't expect a Georgian mansion. A two bedroom house would be altogether enough.

    We, along with a substantial fraction of the general population including most people under 40, are longing for the housing market to crash. Consequently, it almost certainly won't happen. But we live in hope.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    edited June 2023
    Giles Martin has remixed “Pet Sounds”, using the same techniques from his recent Beatles remixes.

    Not on Spotify, annoyingly.
    But worth the free-and-cancellable-after-one-month Apple Music sub.

    Revel in the new texture and detail.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,993
    Ireland have made a decent fist of this - I didn't think they'd avoid an innings defeat.

    Less of a mismatch than I thought yesterday - same true of the Cup Final.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    2-1 to City!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Oh that's very poor from De Gea. Surely should have stopped that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    Germany heading for a political earthquake:

    image
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    stodge said:

    Ireland have made a decent fist of this - I didn't think they'd avoid an innings defeat.

    Less of a mismatch than I thought yesterday - same true of the Cup Final.

    The declaration is still some way off.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,993

    stodge said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Regarding British stagnation, I hope everyone reads this article.

    https://www.sambowman.co/p/democracy-is-the-solution-to-vetocracy

    British productivity has flatlined for 15 years.
    Longer really, since some of the previous growth was undoubtedly a financial bubble.

    Currently, the country basically refuses to develop housing or infrastructure, and heavily penalises ambition. Energy prices are a massive tariff on British business, and have tripled since 2004. And so on.

    You can see in this article both a thoroughgoing critique of the last x years of management, but also the likely seeds of criticism against the next Labour government.

    Is this not what I have been saying for months, voting for more of the same whether tory, labour or lib dem isnt going to help. I get told I am angry and yes I am because the tribals keep telling me vote for their party when all they offer is the same old shit we had the last 4 decades.
    The Bowman article is well worth reading and makes some valuable points but it misses what are very often the root causes of local objections to proposed developments.

    There's a perception "NIMBYs" are opposed to any development anywhere and especially on anything green - that's not usually the case. What local people object to are developments which will create an unsupportable burden on pre-existing local infrastructures and networks without the developer making any compensatory effort to strengthen those networks in response.

    This is about "soft" infrastructure rather than whether the sewage, water, electricity, wifi and other utility distribution infrastructures can cope or be enhanced to cope with the additional load. This is about provision of GPs, schools, shops, transport, places to go, eat, sit etc.

    If you bring an extra 1,000 or more people into an area where will they go to see a GP? Answer - unless a new health centre is built, they'll run to the existing GP surgeries and overwhelm them. What about schools for the children and places for the elderly? As I see the new blocks going up near Plaistow, West Ham and Bow Road stations, my first thought is how many of these new people will want to use the tube and how overcrowded will the network become?

    Planning and development needs to be not just about building houses but also about building new communities and strengthening existing communities, ensuring the standard of life and living for all is improved by and through development and it's not a licence for developers to print money.
    I agree with this.
    But I also agree with his general critique of “vetocracy” Britain.
    The question of productivity is one we've discussed on here many times before and it's not an easy subject on which to have a public discussion as it means saying some things which will be contentious.

    The availability of cheap labour from 2004-05 onwards has been a huge factor in reducing productivity. When it is so much easier to bring in another pair of hands (and they don't cost much), why would you invest in automaton, why would you review business processes, why would you consider methods?

    Why would you invest in a machine which washes cars when you can recruit half a dozen blokes to clean cars the old fashioned way? The machine can break down - if one of the blokes doesn't turn up, you can soon find someone else to do the work. The number of men waiting outside the local Wickes of a morning looking for cash-in-hand casual labour doesn't suggest we're going to get a handle on this any time soon.

    The other fallacy is investing in computer systems would reduce staff counts and make those who remain more productive - no - most computer systems are badly implemented and become constipated with information most of which is never used, accessed, analysed or available.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929
    stodge said:

    Ireland have made a decent fist of this - I didn't think they'd avoid an innings defeat.

    Less of a mismatch than I thought yesterday - same true of the Cup Final.

    I hope the crowd applauded when Ireland took the lead.
  • stodge said:

    Ireland have made a decent fist of this - I didn't think they'd avoid an innings defeat.

    Less of a mismatch than I thought yesterday - same true of the Cup Final.

    I hope the crowd applauded when Ireland took the lead.
    They certainly did. I mean, who wouldn't want it strung out a bit on a warm afternoon in June anyway?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929
    Is anyone getting a Headingley '81 vibe?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    edited June 2023
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Regarding British stagnation, I hope everyone reads this article.

    https://www.sambowman.co/p/democracy-is-the-solution-to-vetocracy

    British productivity has flatlined for 15 years.
    Longer really, since some of the previous growth was undoubtedly a financial bubble.

    Currently, the country basically refuses to develop housing or infrastructure, and heavily penalises ambition. Energy prices are a massive tariff on British business, and have tripled since 2004. And so on.

    You can see in this article both a thoroughgoing critique of the last x years of management, but also the likely seeds of criticism against the next Labour government.

    Is this not what I have been saying for months, voting for more of the same whether tory, labour or lib dem isnt going to help. I get told I am angry and yes I am because the tribals keep telling me vote for their party when all they offer is the same old shit we had the last 4 decades.
    The Bowman article is well worth reading and makes some valuable points but it misses what are very often the root causes of local objections to proposed developments.

    There's a perception "NIMBYs" are opposed to any development anywhere and especially on anything green - that's not usually the case. What local people object to are developments which will create an unsupportable burden on pre-existing local infrastructures and networks without the developer making any compensatory effort to strengthen those networks in response.

    This is about "soft" infrastructure rather than whether the sewage, water, electricity, wifi and other utility distribution infrastructures can cope or be enhanced to cope with the additional load. This is about provision of GPs, schools, shops, transport, places to go, eat, sit etc.

    If you bring an extra 1,000 or more people into an area where will they go to see a GP? Answer - unless a new health centre is built, they'll run to the existing GP surgeries and overwhelm them. What about schools for the children and places for the elderly? As I see the new blocks going up near Plaistow, West Ham and Bow Road stations, my first thought is how many of these new people will want to use the tube and how overcrowded will the network become?

    Planning and development needs to be not just about building houses but also about building new communities and strengthening existing communities, ensuring the standard of life and living for all is improved by and through development and it's not a licence for developers to print money.
    I agree with this.
    But I also agree with his general critique of “vetocracy” Britain.
    The question of productivity is one we've discussed on here many times before and it's not an easy subject on which to have a public discussion as it means saying some things which will be contentious.

    The availability of cheap labour from 2004-05 onwards has been a huge factor in reducing productivity. When it is so much easier to bring in another pair of hands (and they don't cost much), why would you invest in automaton, why would you review business processes, why would you consider methods?

    Why would you invest in a machine which washes cars when you can recruit half a dozen blokes to clean cars the old fashioned way? The machine can break down - if one of the blokes doesn't turn up, you can soon find someone else to do the work. The number of men waiting outside the local Wickes of a morning looking for cash-in-hand casual labour doesn't suggest we're going to get a handle on this any time soon.

    The other fallacy is investing in computer systems would reduce staff counts and make those who remain more productive - no - most computer systems are badly implemented and become constipated with information most of which is never used, accessed, analysed or available.
    Immigration has improved productivity, as most studies confirm. It allowed firms to access skills more readily and allow greater specialisation. I certainly saw this in my own industry. There are other disincentives to capital investment, some noted in the article.

    The car wash story much beloved on here is seen around the world, not just a British story born of immigration-driven stagnation. It seems like it has more to do with the desire for a bespoke service from consumers on one hand, and a easy-access service industry for immigrants (see also hospitality) on the other, than any productivity metaphor.

    I don’t think the computing challenge holds much water, either, at least not as expressed. The counter factual is, what?, de-computerisation? Good luck with that.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
    The winner in 2015 and 2017 wasn't, just a majority was not expected in the former and was in the latter and it ended up the reverse.


    Only in 1992 did the man who was expected to become PM, Kinnock, fail to win and Major was the shock re elected winner
    And '92 was about the polls being systematically wrong (shy Tory syndrome) in a way we now understand.

    Closing the gap from here will be spectacular.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    Is anyone getting a Headingley '81 vibe?

    No
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870
    edited June 2023

    Germany heading for a political earthquake:

    image

    Who are the new AfD voters? Pro Russian greens flocking to the pro Russian AfD? Ex SDP pro Russians? It doesn't seem likely many of the new AfD voters are ideologically far-right like the pre-existing ones.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Regarding British stagnation, I hope everyone reads this article.

    https://www.sambowman.co/p/democracy-is-the-solution-to-vetocracy

    British productivity has flatlined for 15 years.
    Longer really, since some of the previous growth was undoubtedly a financial bubble.

    Currently, the country basically refuses to develop housing or infrastructure, and heavily penalises ambition. Energy prices are a massive tariff on British business, and have tripled since 2004. And so on.

    You can see in this article both a thoroughgoing critique of the last x years of management, but also the likely seeds of criticism against the next Labour government.

    Is this not what I have been saying for months, voting for more of the same whether tory, labour or lib dem isnt going to help. I get told I am angry and yes I am because the tribals keep telling me vote for their party when all they offer is the same old shit we had the last 4 decades.
    The Bowman article is well worth reading and makes some valuable points but it misses what are very often the root causes of local objections to proposed developments.

    There's a perception "NIMBYs" are opposed to any development anywhere and especially on anything green - that's not usually the case. What local people object to are developments which will create an unsupportable burden on pre-existing local infrastructures and networks without the developer making any compensatory effort to strengthen those networks in response.

    This is about "soft" infrastructure rather than whether the sewage, water, electricity, wifi and other utility distribution infrastructures can cope or be enhanced to cope with the additional load. This is about provision of GPs, schools, shops, transport, places to go, eat, sit etc.

    If you bring an extra 1,000 or more people into an area where will they go to see a GP? Answer - unless a new health centre is built, they'll run to the existing GP surgeries and overwhelm them. What about schools for the children and places for the elderly? As I see the new blocks going up near Plaistow, West Ham and Bow Road stations, my first thought is how many of these new people will want to use the tube and how overcrowded will the network become?

    Planning and development needs to be not just about building houses but also about building new communities and strengthening existing communities, ensuring the standard of life and living for all is improved by and through development and it's not a licence for developers to print money.
    I agree with this.
    But I also agree with his general critique of “vetocracy” Britain.
    The question of productivity is one we've discussed on here many times before and it's not an easy subject on which to have a public discussion as it means saying some things which will be contentious.

    The availability of cheap labour from 2004-05 onwards has been a huge factor in reducing productivity. When it is so much easier to bring in another pair of hands (and they don't cost much), why would you invest in automaton, why would you review business processes, why would you consider methods?

    Why would you invest in a machine which washes cars when you can recruit half a dozen blokes to clean cars the old fashioned way? The machine can break down - if one of the blokes doesn't turn up, you can soon find someone else to do the work. The number of men waiting outside the local Wickes of a morning looking for cash-in-hand casual labour doesn't suggest we're going to get a handle on this any time soon.

    The other fallacy is investing in computer systems would reduce staff counts and make those who remain more productive - no - most computer systems are badly implemented and become constipated with information most of which is never used, accessed, analysed or available.
    Immigration has improved productivity, as most studies confirm. It allowed firms to access skills more readily and allow greater specialisation.

    The car wash story much beloved on here is seen around the world, but just a British story born of immigration-driven stagnation. It seems like it has more to do with the desire for a bespoke service from consumers on one hand, and a easy-access service industry for immigrants (see also hospitality) on the other, than any productivity metaphor.

    I don’t think the computing challenge holds much water, either, at least not as expressed. The counter factual is, what?, de-computerisation? Good luck with that.
    Correlation isn't causation, but the collapse in British productivity growth is correlated with the advent of mass immigration.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    edited June 2023
    Liam Gallagher’s a cock.

    Imaging winding up a young football fan.

    Liam must have a tiny penis.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    edited June 2023

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Regarding British stagnation, I hope everyone reads this article.

    https://www.sambowman.co/p/democracy-is-the-solution-to-vetocracy

    British productivity has flatlined for 15 years.
    Longer really, since some of the previous growth was undoubtedly a financial bubble.

    Currently, the country basically refuses to develop housing or infrastructure, and heavily penalises ambition. Energy prices are a massive tariff on British business, and have tripled since 2004. And so on.

    You can see in this article both a thoroughgoing critique of the last x years of management, but also the likely seeds of criticism against the next Labour government.

    Is this not what I have been saying for months, voting for more of the same whether tory, labour or lib dem isnt going to help. I get told I am angry and yes I am because the tribals keep telling me vote for their party when all they offer is the same old shit we had the last 4 decades.
    The Bowman article is well worth reading and makes some valuable points but it misses what are very often the root causes of local objections to proposed developments.

    There's a perception "NIMBYs" are opposed to any development anywhere and especially on anything green - that's not usually the case. What local people object to are developments which will create an unsupportable burden on pre-existing local infrastructures and networks without the developer making any compensatory effort to strengthen those networks in response.

    This is about "soft" infrastructure rather than whether the sewage, water, electricity, wifi and other utility distribution infrastructures can cope or be enhanced to cope with the additional load. This is about provision of GPs, schools, shops, transport, places to go, eat, sit etc.

    If you bring an extra 1,000 or more people into an area where will they go to see a GP? Answer - unless a new health centre is built, they'll run to the existing GP surgeries and overwhelm them. What about schools for the children and places for the elderly? As I see the new blocks going up near Plaistow, West Ham and Bow Road stations, my first thought is how many of these new people will want to use the tube and how overcrowded will the network become?

    Planning and development needs to be not just about building houses but also about building new communities and strengthening existing communities, ensuring the standard of life and living for all is improved by and through development and it's not a licence for developers to print money.
    I agree with this.
    But I also agree with his general critique of “vetocracy” Britain.
    The question of productivity is one we've discussed on here many times before and it's not an easy subject on which to have a public discussion as it means saying some things which will be contentious.

    The availability of cheap labour from 2004-05 onwards has been a huge factor in reducing productivity. When it is so much easier to bring in another pair of hands (and they don't cost much), why would you invest in automaton, why would you review business processes, why would you consider methods?

    Why would you invest in a machine which washes cars when you can recruit half a dozen blokes to clean cars the old fashioned way? The machine can break down - if one of the blokes doesn't turn up, you can soon find someone else to do the work. The number of men waiting outside the local Wickes of a morning looking for cash-in-hand casual labour doesn't suggest we're going to get a handle on this any time soon.

    The other fallacy is investing in computer systems would reduce staff counts and make those who remain more productive - no - most computer systems are badly implemented and become constipated with information most of which is never used, accessed, analysed or available.
    Immigration has improved productivity, as most studies confirm. It allowed firms to access skills more readily and allow greater specialisation.

    The car wash story much beloved on here is seen around the world, but just a British story born of immigration-driven stagnation. It seems like it has more to do with the desire for a bespoke service from consumers on one hand, and a easy-access service industry for immigrants (see also hospitality) on the other, than any productivity metaphor.

    I don’t think the computing challenge holds much water, either, at least not as expressed. The counter factual is, what?, de-computerisation? Good luck with that.
    Correlation isn't causation, but the collapse in British productivity growth is correlated with the advent of mass immigration.
    And yet the correlation (if it exists) is not seen in more successful economies.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited June 2023
    carnforth said:

    Germany heading for a political earthquake:

    image

    Who are the new AfD voters? Pro Russian greens flocking to the pro Russian AfD? Ex SDP pro Russians? It doesn't seem likely many of the new AfD voters are ideologically far-right like the existing ones.
    Based on the swing since 2021 mainly working class SPD voters and a handful of working class Union voters made up for on the Union side at least by middle class liberal FDP voters switching to the Union

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_German_federal_election
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504

    Liam Gallagher’s a cock.

    Imaging winding up a young football.

    Liam must have a tiny penis.

    Make no sense, do your sentences.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    Crawley to face

    Oh dear.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981

    Liam Gallagher’s a cock.

    Imaging winding up a young football fan.

    Liam must have a tiny penis.

    https://twitter.com/fartinthebath/status/1665019015419273218?s=46
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,011

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Regarding British stagnation, I hope everyone reads this article.

    https://www.sambowman.co/p/democracy-is-the-solution-to-vetocracy

    British productivity has flatlined for 15 years.
    Longer really, since some of the previous growth was undoubtedly a financial bubble.

    Currently, the country basically refuses to develop housing or infrastructure, and heavily penalises ambition. Energy prices are a massive tariff on British business, and have tripled since 2004. And so on.

    You can see in this article both a thoroughgoing critique of the last x years of management, but also the likely seeds of criticism against the next Labour government.

    Is this not what I have been saying for months, voting for more of the same whether tory, labour or lib dem isnt going to help. I get told I am angry and yes I am because the tribals keep telling me vote for their party when all they offer is the same old shit we had the last 4 decades.
    The Bowman article is well worth reading and makes some valuable points but it misses what are very often the root causes of local objections to proposed developments.

    There's a perception "NIMBYs" are opposed to any development anywhere and especially on anything green - that's not usually the case. What local people object to are developments which will create an unsupportable burden on pre-existing local infrastructures and networks without the developer making any compensatory effort to strengthen those networks in response.

    This is about "soft" infrastructure rather than whether the sewage, water, electricity, wifi and other utility distribution infrastructures can cope or be enhanced to cope with the additional load. This is about provision of GPs, schools, shops, transport, places to go, eat, sit etc.

    If you bring an extra 1,000 or more people into an area where will they go to see a GP? Answer - unless a new health centre is built, they'll run to the existing GP surgeries and overwhelm them. What about schools for the children and places for the elderly? As I see the new blocks going up near Plaistow, West Ham and Bow Road stations, my first thought is how many of these new people will want to use the tube and how overcrowded will the network become?

    Planning and development needs to be not just about building houses but also about building new communities and strengthening existing communities, ensuring the standard of life and living for all is improved by and through development and it's not a licence for developers to print money.
    I agree with this.
    But I also agree with his general critique of “vetocracy” Britain.
    The question of productivity is one we've discussed on here many times before and it's not an easy subject on which to have a public discussion as it means saying some things which will be contentious.

    The availability of cheap labour from 2004-05 onwards has been a huge factor in reducing productivity. When it is so much easier to bring in another pair of hands (and they don't cost much), why would you invest in automaton, why would you review business processes, why would you consider methods?

    Why would you invest in a machine which washes cars when you can recruit half a dozen blokes to clean cars the old fashioned way? The machine can break down - if one of the blokes doesn't turn up, you can soon find someone else to do the work. The number of men waiting outside the local Wickes of a morning looking for cash-in-hand casual labour doesn't suggest we're going to get a handle on this any time soon.

    The other fallacy is investing in computer systems would reduce staff counts and make those who remain more productive - no - most computer systems are badly implemented and become constipated with information most of which is never used, accessed, analysed or available.
    Immigration has improved productivity, as most studies confirm. It allowed firms to access skills more readily and allow greater specialisation.

    The car wash story much beloved on here is seen around the world, but just a British story born of immigration-driven stagnation. It seems like it has more to do with the desire for a bespoke service from consumers on one hand, and a easy-access service industry for immigrants (see also hospitality) on the other, than any productivity metaphor.

    I don’t think the computing challenge holds much water, either, at least not as expressed. The counter factual is, what?, de-computerisation? Good luck with that.
    Correlation isn't causation, but the collapse in British productivity growth is correlated with the advent of mass immigration.
    And yet the correlation (if it exists) is not seen in more successful economies.
    You have to show there is as much unskilled migration to those countries first. We got a lot of skilled migrants for example from eastern europe that came and didn't do skilled jobs they worked for example as barista's and hospitality. It is not enough to look at the skills of migrants you also need to look at the jobs they did.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
    The winner in 2015 and 2017 wasn't, just a majority was not expected in the former and was in the latter and it ended up the reverse.


    Only in 1992 did the man who was expected to become PM, Kinnock, fail to win and Major was the shock re elected winner
    And '92 was about the polls being systematically wrong (shy Tory syndrome) in a way we now understand.

    Closing the gap from here will be spectacular.
    Major also led Kinnock as preferred PM
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
    The winner in 2015 and 2017 wasn't, just a majority was not expected in the former and was in the latter and it ended up the reverse.


    Only in 1992 did the man who was expected to become PM, Kinnock, fail to win and Major was the shock re elected winner
    Going further back, I think 1970 was a surprise given the size of the Labour majority as was February 1974 as it was generally thought anti-union sentiment would return Heath and the Conservatives with a small majority.
    1970 was the bigger surprise, Heath won outright with a clear majority when Labour led most election polls. Feb 1974 less so as it was a hung parliament and the Tories won the popular vote
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
    The winner in 2015 and 2017 wasn't, just a majority was not expected in the former and was in the latter and it ended up the reverse.


    Only in 1992 did the man who was expected to become PM, Kinnock, fail to win and Major was the shock re elected winner
    And '92 was about the polls being systematically wrong (shy Tory syndrome) in a way we now understand.

    Closing the gap from here will be spectacular.
    Major also led Kinnock as preferred PM
    Major also led Kinnock in the satisfaction/approval ratings, something Sunak doesn’t lead Starmer on.

    We all know which is the better predictor of election outcomes.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    carnforth said:

    Germany heading for a political earthquake:

    image

    Who are the new AfD voters? Pro Russian greens flocking to the pro Russian AfD? Ex SDP pro Russians? It doesn't seem likely many of the new AfD voters are ideologically far-right like the pre-existing ones.
    AfD are much stronger with younger voters than older ones. So they may be benefiting from natural demographic change.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    This is what a complete **** looks like.

    Hopefully Manchester United give him a life ban.



  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    United have given up. Bringing on that carthorse Weghorst can't mean anything else.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Carnyx said:

    pigeon said:

    This is bloody awful. Well over 1,000 casualties.

    Indian Railways need a massive upgrade. And there's lots of British expertise that could help.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65798640

    To be fair, British trains have an excellent safety record. Doubtless aided by the fact that, owing to endless rounds of both engineering works and strikes, they are increasingly incapable of carrying any passengers at all.
    Britain's newest train station, opened last Saturday. Pics by yours truly last Tuesday:







    Is that the line south to Bramley/Mortimer?
    Yes it is, the station's just south of the junction of the main line towards Newbury and the West.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,694

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
    The winner in 2015 and 2017 wasn't, just a majority was not expected in the former and was in the latter and it ended up the reverse.


    Only in 1992 did the man who was expected to become PM, Kinnock, fail to win and Major was the shock re elected winner
    And '92 was about the polls being systematically wrong (shy Tory syndrome) in a way we now understand.

    Closing the gap from here will be spectacular.
    While this is true, don’t rule out a new shy Tory effect. The government is not doing well, and there are loons out there like Heathener who berate bus passengers about it. Would not be surprised to see some people do things different in the privacy of the booth to what they said before.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,238
    I guess this new Reading Green Park station is all part of Levelling Up and Northern Poorhouse Rail.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
    The winner in 2015 and 2017 wasn't, just a majority was not expected in the former and was in the latter and it ended up the reverse.


    Only in 1992 did the man who was expected to become PM, Kinnock, fail to win and Major was the shock re elected winner
    And '92 was about the polls being systematically wrong (shy Tory syndrome) in a way we now understand.

    Closing the gap from here will be spectacular.
    While this is true, don’t rule out a new shy Tory effect. The government is not doing well, and there are loons out there like Heathener who berate bus passengers about it. Would not be surprised to see some people do things different in the privacy of the booth to what they said before.
    Why would they do that?
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640

    Giles Martin has remixed “Pet Sounds”, using the same techniques from his recent Beatles remixes.

    Not on Spotify, annoyingly.
    But worth the free-and-cancellable-after-one-month Apple Music sub.

    Revel in the new texture and detail.

    Thanks for that, I look forward to listening to it. He’s done remarkable work with Abbey Road, Sgt Pepper and Revolver. I hope he does all the Beatles’ albums.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Sean_F said:

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tories-fear-shy-switchers-hiding-scale-general-election-defeat

    We assume the shy Tory exists - but could there be a new "shy Labour" voter with Keir Starmer?

    That's possible. I know of two Tory voters (who both also voted for Brexit) who are thinking of voting Labour for the first time at the next election.

    They are umming and erring about it, and I am applying pressure, but I think SKS either wins very big, or he doesn't.
    Totally agree. It's a Hung Parliament (still more likely IMHO), or a big "unexpected" win.
    One caveat.

    Whatever happens will seem obvious with hindsight. Either "the Conservatives were struggling to break 30 percent with a year to go- there was no way they were going to get close" or "Sunak was bound to calm things down and the mountain for Labour was just too high" or "Johnson was so determined to return that it was inevitable that he would work his old magic again".

    The only question is- which of these is true, and can we work it out in advance?
    Isn’t it generally true that we’ve known the outcome of every general election since…well since I’ve been following them.

    Keir will be next PM, we just don’t quite know whether or not he’ll get a majority.
    1992, 2015, and 2017, were genuine surprises, IMHO. Everything else from 1979 was predictable.
    Quite.

    1992 - Neil Kinnock PM. I had Pink Champagne on ice.
    2015 - Coalition Govt so Cameron made a referendum promise he didn't expect to have to keep.
    2017 - Strong & Stable - until Magic (sic) Grandpa struck.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504

    I guess this new Reading Green Park station is all part of Levelling Up and Northern Poorhouse Rail.

    Well, hopefully you'll be getting *six* new stations near you next year:
    https://www.northumberlandline.uk/

    But I bet you'll find a reason to whinge about that.
This discussion has been closed.