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Ratings blow for Sunak from R&W – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,474
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    A lot (all?) of the ranting about other countries is a form of copium espoused by Brexiters who can’t bear to think of their country being unflatteringly compared to others.

    Someone - probably SeanF - will be along soon to claim that the UK must be the best country in the world given the number of immigrants it receives.

    Most of these posters have never left Rochdale (or the equivalent), so perhaps can be excused the passive aggressive parochialism.

    I’m not sure what Leon’s excuse is, although I note that he never actually seems to be in the UK, and nor does he actually have the kind of job that exposes much you to everyday reality. As he never ceases to tell us.

    I’m not ranting. I’ve admitted several times that Britain has significant problems, from debt to inflation to our shambolic public services

    However, I’m also pointing out that I travel extremely widely around the world (and within the UK, even if you don’t believe me) and that gives me a perspective that maybe others here don’t get. I just see more and I can compare

    Many nations are troubled, just like the UK. The globe has recently gone through a calamitous plague, so it’s not surprising. Quite a few have problems which make ours look relatively minor

    Brexit is neither here nor there in this wider scheme
    This is exactly what i have been saying. We had serious problems in the EU: a horrendous trade deficit, excessive consumption and poor productivity. Funnily enough these problems persist but now they are being blamed on Brexit. It is absurd. What is disappointing is how small the steps that have been taken to address any of these. Covid and Ukraine have undoubtedly made this more difficult but I would like a better sense of purpose and direction.
    Yes, the really dismaying thing about the UK is the pitiful inertia of our politicians. Our problems are difficult but not intractable. We also have good things going for us. Someone please get a grip
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336
    viewcode said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    I've just been having a look through some UCU and their local affiliates' twitter accounts

    They're in the middle of a huge pay dispute with their employers, but they're mostly going on about Palestine and Trans

    And they've just passed a motion condemning our support of Ukraine

    Why the fuck aren't aren't they focussed on education?

    What precisely is this Ukraine motion?
    Basically: send no weapons to Ukraine, and it's all NATO's fault.

    https://socialistworker.co.uk/news/ucu-congress-saturday/
    The UCU can fuck off then
    Indeed
    They've always had form for backing Neo-Nazis as well.

    For example, here (£):

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/israel-debate-inflamed-by-web-link-to-racist-site/403423.article

    Her excuse for those who can't gain access was that despite being a Ku Klux Klan article it was essentially truthful about Jews.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,800
    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    I've just been having a look through some UCU and their local affiliates' twitter accounts

    They're in the middle of a huge pay dispute with their employers, but they're mostly going on about Palestine and Trans

    And they've just passed a motion condemning our support of Ukraine

    Why the fuck aren't aren't they focussed on education?

    What precisely is this Ukraine motion?
    A heap of shit?
    Is that the full text of the motion?

    My question was genuine.
    Congress notes:

    one year after the brutal invasion, Ukraine has become a battleground for Russian and US imperialism
    it is estimated that 150,000 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians and 200,000 Russian soldiers have died since invasion
    Putin has threatened the use of nuclear weapons and unleashed war crimes
    the 2022 NATO summit committed to a US military base in Poland, a brigade in Romania, air missile systems in Italy and Germany and two additional F-35 squadrons in Britain
    Volodymyr Zelensky says he wants Ukraine to become a 'big Israel'—an armed, illiberal outpost of US imperialism.
    Congress believes:

    wars are fought by the poor and unemployed of one country killing and maiming the poor and unemployed of another
    we should say, 'Russian troops out, no to NATO escalation and expansion'
    we should stand in solidarity with ordinary Ukrainians and demand an immediate withdrawal of Russian troops
    NATO is not a progressive force: escalation risks widening war in the region
    only through a peaceful resolution can lives be saved.
    Resolves:

    UCU to call upon Russian to withdraw its troops and for government to stop arming Ukraine
    UCU to call for a peaceful resolution to the war
    Congress resolves to support protests called by Stop The War, CND and other anti-war organisations.

    But I think 'a heap of shit' was pithier, and summed up the general thrust of it.

    Here's a full list of resolutions.

    https://www.ucu.org.uk/article/12945/Business-of-the-strategy-and-finance-committee-open-session

    On a serious note, the UCU is anxious to avoid talking about employment matters because they would have to admit (a) they spend much of their time making cosy deals with the management and (b) they don't give a fuck about their members and never have since it was formed back in I think 2006.

    It's been an utter disaster for universities and their staff, vice chancellors apart, that the AUT and NATFHE merged. Although it has benefitted the Union bosses, most of whom make McCluskey look honest, to an enormous degree.

    Long may NASUWT hold out against the Nutters forcing something similar in school education.
    Yeah, heap of shit was fair, but I like to make my own mind up about these things and I had my doubts it was that bad. Doubts are now gone.
    It was also an awesome and subtle pun on the word 'motion.'

    But given the awesomeness and subtlety of it I'll forgive you for not noticing that.
    I'm flushed with shame that I missed the pun.
    I wouldn't worry too much. @Leon and @BlancheLivermore would have you up by the goolies if you missed a literary allusion.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,889
    Evening all :)

    Skimming the R&W data, the England sub sample gives Labour 43%, Conservatives 29%, Liberal Democrats 12%, Greens 8%, Reform 6% but there are some amusing numbers within that - Conservatives 39% in London and 6% in the East Midlands so a bucket of the usual salt required.

    As for Sunak, I don't know. He may find the same vein of popularity John Major managed in 1992 (aided and abetted by an awful Labour campaign) but he doesn't convince as an individual who has much empathy with the everyday concerns of the majority. He comes across as awkward and clumsy in social situations - I'm sure he's great company in his own circle - and seems more like a caricature of a Conservative Prime Minister talking the talk without walking the walk.

    I don't have a strong sense of what he believes or really thinks nor do I have any sense of a greater vision - why vote Conservative next time and what can the Conservatives point to after 13 years of leading the Government apart from their longevity (again aided and abetted by Labour electing Jeremy Corbyn)?

    Perversely, I think losing the election could be the making of him as a political figure and his influence will increase rather than diminish as the Conservatives go into Opposition.

    Looking at the Spanish local election results, a good night for PP and VOX, disappointing but not awful for PSOE and disastrous for the smaller left-leaning parties.

    It's looking possible PP and VOX combined will get a tiny majority in the next Corts while PSOE retains much of its parliamentary strength. The question is whether there will be a formal PP-VOX coalition or whether, pace the Sweden Democrats, VOX will simply support a minority centre-right administration (I suspect the local experiences will inform the national strategies).
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336
    Omnium said:

    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    I've just been having a look through some UCU and their local affiliates' twitter accounts

    They're in the middle of a huge pay dispute with their employers, but they're mostly going on about Palestine and Trans

    And they've just passed a motion condemning our support of Ukraine

    Why the fuck aren't aren't they focussed on education?

    What precisely is this Ukraine motion?
    A heap of shit?
    Is that the full text of the motion?

    My question was genuine.
    Congress notes:

    one year after the brutal invasion, Ukraine has become a battleground for Russian and US imperialism
    it is estimated that 150,000 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians and 200,000 Russian soldiers have died since invasion
    Putin has threatened the use of nuclear weapons and unleashed war crimes
    the 2022 NATO summit committed to a US military base in Poland, a brigade in Romania, air missile systems in Italy and Germany and two additional F-35 squadrons in Britain
    Volodymyr Zelensky says he wants Ukraine to become a 'big Israel'—an armed, illiberal outpost of US imperialism.
    Congress believes:

    wars are fought by the poor and unemployed of one country killing and maiming the poor and unemployed of another
    we should say, 'Russian troops out, no to NATO escalation and expansion'
    we should stand in solidarity with ordinary Ukrainians and demand an immediate withdrawal of Russian troops
    NATO is not a progressive force: escalation risks widening war in the region
    only through a peaceful resolution can lives be saved.
    Resolves:

    UCU to call upon Russian to withdraw its troops and for government to stop arming Ukraine
    UCU to call for a peaceful resolution to the war
    Congress resolves to support protests called by Stop The War, CND and other anti-war organisations.

    But I think 'a heap of shit' was pithier, and summed up the general thrust of it.

    Here's a full list of resolutions.

    https://www.ucu.org.uk/article/12945/Business-of-the-strategy-and-finance-committee-open-session

    On a serious note, the UCU is anxious to avoid talking about employment matters because they would have to admit (a) they spend much of their time making cosy deals with the management and (b) they don't give a fuck about their members and never have since it was formed back in I think 2006.

    It's been an utter disaster for universities and their staff, vice chancellors apart, that the AUT and NATFHE merged. Although it has benefitted the Union bosses, most of whom make McCluskey look honest, to an enormous degree.

    Long may NASUWT hold out against the Nutters forcing something similar in school education.
    Yeah, heap of shit was fair, but I like to make my own mind up about these things and I had my doubts it was that bad. Doubts are now gone.
    It was also an awesome and subtle pun on the word 'motion.'

    But given the awesomeness and subtlety of it I'll forgive you for not noticing that.
    I'm flushed with shame that I missed the pun.
    I wouldn't worry too much. @Leon and @BlancheLivermore would have you up by the goolies if you missed a literary allusion.
    Would that make Farooq a turd party?
  • Options
    BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,278

    The UCU stuff is a part of what Sir Keir was implicitly supporting whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet

    He's been impressively consistent in his support of Ukraine since

    But who knows how Slalom Sir Keir will respond next?

    Er... SKS can travel in time?

    If not, how did he express any opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet?
    He remained a member after Salisbury
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,874
    If this was American PB.com, everywhere here would live in Omaha, Nebraska or Raleigh, North Carolina, in 4000 sq ft houses with neighbours who say “Howdy!” and bake cookies for the school lacrosse team.

    It’s really three or four different countries.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    I've just been having a look through some UCU and their local affiliates' twitter accounts

    They're in the middle of a huge pay dispute with their employers, but they're mostly going on about Palestine and Trans

    And they've just passed a motion condemning our support of Ukraine

    Why the fuck aren't aren't they focussed on education?

    What precisely is this Ukraine motion?
    A heap of shit?
    Is that the full text of the motion?

    My question was genuine.
    Congress notes:

    one year after the brutal invasion, Ukraine has become a battleground for Russian and US imperialism
    it is estimated that 150,000 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians and 200,000 Russian soldiers have died since invasion
    Putin has threatened the use of nuclear weapons and unleashed war crimes
    the 2022 NATO summit committed to a US military base in Poland, a brigade in Romania, air missile systems in Italy and Germany and two additional F-35 squadrons in Britain
    Volodymyr Zelensky says he wants Ukraine to become a 'big Israel'—an armed, illiberal outpost of US imperialism.
    Congress believes:

    wars are fought by the poor and unemployed of one country killing and maiming the poor and unemployed of another
    we should say, 'Russian troops out, no to NATO escalation and expansion'
    we should stand in solidarity with ordinary Ukrainians and demand an immediate withdrawal of Russian troops
    NATO is not a progressive force: escalation risks widening war in the region
    only through a peaceful resolution can lives be saved.
    Resolves:

    UCU to call upon Russian to withdraw its troops and for government to stop arming Ukraine
    UCU to call for a peaceful resolution to the war
    Congress resolves to support protests called by Stop The War, CND and other anti-war organisations.

    But I think 'a heap of shit' was pithier, and summed up the general thrust of it.

    Here's a full list of resolutions.

    https://www.ucu.org.uk/article/12945/Business-of-the-strategy-and-finance-committee-open-session

    On a serious note, the UCU is anxious to avoid talking about employment matters because they would have to admit (a) they spend much of their time making cosy deals with the management and (b) they don't give a fuck about their members and never have since it was formed back in I think 2006.

    It's been an utter disaster for universities and their staff, vice chancellors apart, that the AUT and NATFHE merged. Although it has benefitted the Union bosses, most of whom make McCluskey look honest, to an enormous degree.

    Long may NASUWT hold out against the Nutters forcing something similar in school education.
    Yeah, heap of shit was fair, but I like to make my own mind up about these things and I had my doubts it was that bad. Doubts are now gone.
    It was also an awesome and subtle pun on the word 'motion.'

    But given the awesomeness and subtlety of it I'll forgive you for not noticing that.
    The subtlety was on a par with the legendary modesty and quietness of dress of a certain site mod.

    Is this “motion” an attempt to

    1) Make the DfE look good?
    2) Apply for roles as OFSTED inspectors?
    3) Make Dominic Cummings look like an education reform genius?
    There is no way in this space time continuum anyone could achieve 1 or 3.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,874
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    A lot (all?) of the ranting about other countries is a form of copium espoused by Brexiters who can’t bear to think of their country being unflatteringly compared to others.

    Someone - probably SeanF - will be along soon to claim that the UK must be the best country in the world given the number of immigrants it receives.

    Most of these posters have never left Rochdale (or the equivalent), so perhaps can be excused the passive aggressive parochialism.

    I’m not sure what Leon’s excuse is, although I note that he never actually seems to be in the UK, and nor does he actually have the kind of job that exposes much you to everyday reality. As he never ceases to tell us.

    I’m not ranting. I’ve admitted several times that Britain has significant problems, from debt to inflation to our shambolic public services

    However, I’m also pointing out that I travel extremely widely around the world (and within the UK, even if you don’t believe me) and that gives me a perspective that maybe others here don’t get. I just see more and I can compare

    Many nations are troubled, just like the UK. The globe has recently gone through a calamitous plague, so it’s not surprising. Quite a few have problems which make ours look relatively minor

    Brexit is neither here nor there in this wider scheme
    This is exactly what i have been saying. We had serious problems in the EU: a horrendous trade deficit, excessive consumption and poor productivity. Funnily enough these problems persist but now they are being blamed on Brexit. It is absurd. What is disappointing is how small the steps that have been taken to address any of these. Covid and Ukraine have undoubtedly made this more difficult but I would like a better sense of purpose and direction.
    Yes, the really dismaying thing about the UK is the pitiful inertia of our politicians. Our problems are difficult but not intractable. We also have good things going for us. Someone please get a grip
    You have to explain why there appears to be nobody who can. Something structural. Blob-like, even,
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,563

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:
    Did you visit San Francisco in the 1990s? I'd be interested to know what it was like at that time compared to now.
    Or New York in the Seventies, Los Angeles or Chicago in the Eighties. There has always been a dark side to American cities.
    New York in the late 70s / early 80s was incredibly creative despite all the problems it was experiencing.
    Good point. And NYC WAS creative back then. Breeding great art and fine music

    That feeling is absent now. It’s just straight up urban decay with no punky upside. So far
    Cheap and nasty urban areas can encourage the creative types.

    Expensive and nasty don't.
    Hoxton before it changed…

    I went to a gallery opening there, years ago.

    The street was on the dodgy edge of Hoxton hipsterdum. Two large doorman shoved the homeless back from the door.

    Inside I was given a brochure. Printer on the kind of paper that requires not merely deforesting the Amazon, but also the slaughter of at least one indigenous tribe, it was a sub-Marxist rant about the evils of Capitalism and environmental degradation

    On the back, there was a note from the printer, saying that the brochure was non recyclable.

    I drank some more of the vintage champagne on offer, and perused “A Constant State Of Revolution”

    Someone had taken the famous Che picture, photoshopped it into the Wahol colour style. Then put it in a very plastic, fake 18th cent picture frame. The eyes had been cut out, and behind them a couple of swirly patterns were revolved by an electric motor.

    Yours for only £30k
    Slightly tangential but, on the surface, the lack of Guardianista outrage at the Police's arrest of TikToker Mizzy was a bit of a mystery considering he was a young Black man who was criticised for his pranks...

    ...until you realised that the sort of stuff he did - taking people's dogs and walking into houses unannounced etc - is the unstated nightmare of the Guardianistas who move into such neighbourhoods for its edginess i.e. they come face to face with some of the locals.
    During the famous LA riots, in a very liberal, very rich neighbourhood, someone I met later was staying with her parents.

    She was serving in the military - home on leave. She was horrified to discover that a neighbour, in the film business, had gone to the armoury of the prop company he ran and got actual automatic weapons out. Which he had distributed to his friends.

    They were a large number of miles from the riots.

    As she put it, she confiscated the machine guns from the scared white men, before they shot a pizza delivery chap or something.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    A lot (all?) of the ranting about other countries is a form of copium espoused by Brexiters who can’t bear to think of their country being unflatteringly compared to others.

    Someone - probably SeanF - will be along soon to claim that the UK must be the best country in the world given the number of immigrants it receives.

    Most of these posters have never left Rochdale (or the equivalent), so perhaps can be excused the passive aggressive parochialism.

    I’m not sure what Leon’s excuse is, although I note that he never actually seems to be in the UK, and nor does he actually have the kind of job that exposes much you to everyday reality. As he never ceases to tell us.

    I’m not ranting. I’ve admitted several times that Britain has significant problems, from debt to inflation to our shambolic public services

    However, I’m also pointing out that I travel extremely widely around the world (and within the UK, even if you don’t believe me) and that gives me a perspective that maybe others here don’t get. I just see more and I can compare

    Many nations are troubled, just like the UK. The globe has recently gone through a calamitous plague, so it’s not surprising. Quite a few have problems which make ours look relatively minor

    Brexit is neither here nor there in this wider scheme
    This is exactly what i have been saying. We had serious problems in the EU: a horrendous trade deficit, excessive consumption and poor productivity. Funnily enough these problems persist but now they are being blamed on Brexit. It is absurd. What is disappointing is how small the steps that have been taken to address any of these. Covid and Ukraine have undoubtedly made this more difficult but I would like a better sense of purpose and direction.
    Yes, the really dismaying thing about the UK is the pitiful inertia of our politicians. Our problems are difficult but not intractable. We also have good things going for us. Someone please get a grip
    You have to explain why there appears to be nobody who can. Something structural. Blob-like, even,
    All of us are too busy punning on PB so we have to leave the running of the country to lesser mortals.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,028

    The UCU stuff is a part of what Sir Keir was implicitly supporting whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet

    He's been impressively consistent in his support of Ukraine since

    But who knows how Slalom Sir Keir will respond next?

    Er... SKS can travel in time?

    If not, how did he express any opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet?
    Not being a Ukraine Ultra is a crime that is so grave that even innocence itself is no defence.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,907
    O/T

    Can't stop laughing at the fact that someone from Aylesbury thought Aylesbury was the furthest point from the sea in the UK.

    "Where, exactly, is the furthest point in Britain from the sea?
    Edward Lock, Harpenden, UK
    I was always led to believe it was Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, but it seems it would be Church Flatts farm, near Coton in the Elms in Derbyshire. Latitude: 52' 43.6'N. Longitude: 1' 37.2'W
    James Oaten, Aylesbury, England"

    https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-63924,00.html
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,474

    If this was American PB.com, everywhere here would live in Omaha, Nebraska or Raleigh, North Carolina, in 4000 sq ft houses with neighbours who say “Howdy!” and bake cookies for the school lacrosse team.

    It’s really three or four different countries.

    London, UK, population 8.9 million; homicides in 2022: 109

    Omaha, Nebraska, population 487,000; homicides in 2022: 31

    Hmm

    That said I do take your point. Lots of Americans in the nicer small towns and richer suburbs have enviably lovely lives, entirely untroubled by violence and decay

    Trouble is an awful lot of Americans live in the great cities, and nearly all of them have these increasingly menacing issues

    Rome in the 4th century was like this. The cities decayed but the rich retreated to small towns and villas and, for them, life remained great
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Can't stop laughing at the fact that someone from Aylesbury thought Aylesbury was the furthest point from the sea in the UK.

    "Where, exactly, is the furthest point in Britain from the sea?
    Edward Lock, Harpenden, UK
    I was always led to believe it was Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, but it seems it would be Church Flatts farm, near Coton in the Elms in Derbyshire. Latitude: 52' 43.6'N. Longitude: 1' 37.2'W
    James Oaten, Aylesbury, England"

    https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-63924,00.html

    To be fair Aylesbury doesn't look like a terrible answer if you aren't sure where the Thames becomes the sea, which itself isn't obvious. Probably 90-95% of the country is closer to the sea than Aylesbury?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,474

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    A lot (all?) of the ranting about other countries is a form of copium espoused by Brexiters who can’t bear to think of their country being unflatteringly compared to others.

    Someone - probably SeanF - will be along soon to claim that the UK must be the best country in the world given the number of immigrants it receives.

    Most of these posters have never left Rochdale (or the equivalent), so perhaps can be excused the passive aggressive parochialism.

    I’m not sure what Leon’s excuse is, although I note that he never actually seems to be in the UK, and nor does he actually have the kind of job that exposes much you to everyday reality. As he never ceases to tell us.

    I’m not ranting. I’ve admitted several times that Britain has significant problems, from debt to inflation to our shambolic public services

    However, I’m also pointing out that I travel extremely widely around the world (and within the UK, even if you don’t believe me) and that gives me a perspective that maybe others here don’t get. I just see more and I can compare

    Many nations are troubled, just like the UK. The globe has recently gone through a calamitous plague, so it’s not surprising. Quite a few have problems which make ours look relatively minor

    Brexit is neither here nor there in this wider scheme
    This is exactly what i have been saying. We had serious problems in the EU: a horrendous trade deficit, excessive consumption and poor productivity. Funnily enough these problems persist but now they are being blamed on Brexit. It is absurd. What is disappointing is how small the steps that have been taken to address any of these. Covid and Ukraine have undoubtedly made this more difficult but I would like a better sense of purpose and direction.
    Yes, the really dismaying thing about the UK is the pitiful inertia of our politicians. Our problems are difficult but not intractable. We also have good things going for us. Someone please get a grip
    You have to explain why there appears to be nobody who can. Something structural. Blob-like, even,
    Dunno. It is pathetic. Starmer v Sunak is a truly dispiriting choice. But it is still better than Biden v Trump
  • Options
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Can't stop laughing at the fact that someone from Aylesbury thought Aylesbury was the furthest point from the sea in the UK.

    "Where, exactly, is the furthest point in Britain from the sea?
    Edward Lock, Harpenden, UK
    I was always led to believe it was Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, but it seems it would be Church Flatts farm, near Coton in the Elms in Derbyshire. Latitude: 52' 43.6'N. Longitude: 1' 37.2'W
    James Oaten, Aylesbury, England"

    https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-63924,00.html

    Is it that funny? I mean, he's wrong, but it's not like Aylesbury is a fishing village.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,889
    I've not been to America for a few years (certainly since the pandemic) but even before that I found San Francisco an intimidating city and the poverty was never far from the surface (literally) in Las Vegas.

    It is the most powerful nation and yet the levels of relative poverty (not absolute - even the poorest in America do better than many on the planet) are stark and enlightening.

    Is it a failure of personal and collective responsibility or is it a failure of a system of economy and government which offers so much in reward yet incarcerates so many as a proportion.

    Unfortunately, rather than seeing homelessness and drug addiction as a national problem requiring all sides to get involved, too many seek to make cheap political advantage.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,874

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Can't stop laughing at the fact that someone from Aylesbury thought Aylesbury was the furthest point from the sea in the UK.

    "Where, exactly, is the furthest point in Britain from the sea?
    Edward Lock, Harpenden, UK
    I was always led to believe it was Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, but it seems it would be Church Flatts farm, near Coton in the Elms in Derbyshire. Latitude: 52' 43.6'N. Longitude: 1' 37.2'W
    James Oaten, Aylesbury, England"

    https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-63924,00.html

    Is it that funny? I mean, he's wrong, but it's not like Aylesbury is a fishing village.
    Andy_JS has a very odd sense of humour.
    Is he a serial killer? I wouldn’t be surprised.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927
    edited May 2023

    A lot (all?) of the ranting about other countries is a form of copium espoused by Brexiters who can’t bear to think of their country being unflatteringly compared to others.

    Someone - probably SeanF - will be along soon to claim that the UK must be the best country in the world given the number of immigrants it receives.

    Most of these posters have never left Rochdale (or the equivalent), so perhaps can be excused the passive aggressive parochialism.

    I’m not sure what Leon’s excuse is, although I note that he never actually seems to be in the UK, and nor does he actually have the kind of job that exposes much you to everyday reality. As he never ceases to tell us.

    I can't recall saying any such thing.

    You do , on the whole, come over much like Montague Withnail mourning his lost youth, when lamenting the state of Britiain after the end of New Labour.

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,474
    stodge said:

    I've not been to America for a few years (certainly since the pandemic) but even before that I found San Francisco an intimidating city and the poverty was never far from the surface (literally) in Las Vegas.

    It is the most powerful nation and yet the levels of relative poverty (not absolute - even the poorest in America do better than many on the planet) are stark and enlightening.

    Is it a failure of personal and collective responsibility or is it a failure of a system of economy and government which offers so much in reward yet incarcerates so many as a proportion.

    Unfortunately, rather than seeing homelessness and drug addiction as a national problem requiring all sides to get involved, too many seek to make cheap political advantage.

    Actually, the poverty in somewhere like rural Mississippi is absolutely shocking. Not just relatively startling

    But I’m bored of bashing America now. It still makes bloody great TV for a start. And on that note I’m going to watch Succession

    Later
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774

    The UCU stuff is a part of what Sir Keir was implicitly supporting whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet

    He's been impressively consistent in his support of Ukraine since

    But who knows how Slalom Sir Keir will respond next?

    Er... SKS can travel in time?

    If not, how did he express any opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet?
    He remained a member after Salisbury
    Ah, so he can't travel time but you can move goalposts. I see.
  • Options

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Can't stop laughing at the fact that someone from Aylesbury thought Aylesbury was the furthest point from the sea in the UK.

    "Where, exactly, is the furthest point in Britain from the sea?
    Edward Lock, Harpenden, UK
    I was always led to believe it was Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, but it seems it would be Church Flatts farm, near Coton in the Elms in Derbyshire. Latitude: 52' 43.6'N. Longitude: 1' 37.2'W
    James Oaten, Aylesbury, England"

    https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-63924,00.html

    Is it that funny? I mean, he's wrong, but it's not like Aylesbury is a fishing village.
    Andy_JS has a very odd sense of humour.
    Is he a serial killer? I wouldn’t be surprised.

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Can't stop laughing at the fact that someone from Aylesbury thought Aylesbury was the furthest point from the sea in the UK.

    "Where, exactly, is the furthest point in Britain from the sea?
    Edward Lock, Harpenden, UK
    I was always led to believe it was Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, but it seems it would be Church Flatts farm, near Coton in the Elms in Derbyshire. Latitude: 52' 43.6'N. Longitude: 1' 37.2'W
    James Oaten, Aylesbury, England"

    https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-63924,00.html

    Is it that funny? I mean, he's wrong, but it's not like Aylesbury is a fishing village.
    Andy_JS has a very odd sense of humour.
    Is he a serial killer? I wouldn’t be surprised.
    Perhaps he can help me with the question that's bugging me... which point in the UK is furthest from an abandoned quarry where a body would never be found?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    I was running about an hour behind on the IPL. What a match, what a final over. What a final 2 balls. Just incredible sport. I do feel that GT would have had a better chance over the full 20 overs but wow.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Can't stop laughing at the fact that someone from Aylesbury thought Aylesbury was the furthest point from the sea in the UK.

    "Where, exactly, is the furthest point in Britain from the sea?
    Edward Lock, Harpenden, UK
    I was always led to believe it was Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, but it seems it would be Church Flatts farm, near Coton in the Elms in Derbyshire. Latitude: 52' 43.6'N. Longitude: 1' 37.2'W
    James Oaten, Aylesbury, England"

    https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-63924,00.html

    Is it that funny? I mean, he's wrong, but it's not like Aylesbury is a fishing village.
    https://randomtechthoughts.blog/2020/08/22/how-far-is-it-to-the-coast/
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    I've not been to America for a few years (certainly since the pandemic) but even before that I found San Francisco an intimidating city and the poverty was never far from the surface (literally) in Las Vegas.

    It is the most powerful nation and yet the levels of relative poverty (not absolute - even the poorest in America do better than many on the planet) are stark and enlightening.

    Is it a failure of personal and collective responsibility or is it a failure of a system of economy and government which offers so much in reward yet incarcerates so many as a proportion.

    Unfortunately, rather than seeing homelessness and drug addiction as a national problem requiring all sides to get involved, too many seek to make cheap political advantage.

    Actually, the poverty in somewhere like rural Mississippi is absolutely shocking. Not just relatively startling

    But I’m bored of bashing America now. It still makes bloody great TV for a start. And on that note I’m going to watch Succession

    Later
    It may be a feature, not a bug.

    The US is designed to make poverty very unpleasant. So, avoid it.
  • Options
    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,800
    The comment above re What3words set me searching. Weirdly, the seat where I watch Heart of Midlothian FC play home games appears to be ///slowly.link.plays!
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    sarissa said:

    The comment above re What3words set me searching. Weirdly, the seat where I watch Heart of Midlothian FC play home games appears to be ///slowly.link.plays!

    That's a really good one!
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412
    Dura_Ace said:

    The UCU stuff is a part of what Sir Keir was implicitly supporting whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet

    He's been impressively consistent in his support of Ukraine since

    But who knows how Slalom Sir Keir will respond next?

    Er... SKS can travel in time?

    If not, how did he express any opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet?
    Not being a Ukraine Ultra is a crime that is so grave that even innocence itself is no defence.
    Massive irony being, of course, that the total area illegally occupied by Russia (including territory of Georgia and Moldova, not just Ukraine!) is far in excess of the area illegally occupied by Israel!
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,563
    A
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    I've not been to America for a few years (certainly since the pandemic) but even before that I found San Francisco an intimidating city and the poverty was never far from the surface (literally) in Las Vegas.

    It is the most powerful nation and yet the levels of relative poverty (not absolute - even the poorest in America do better than many on the planet) are stark and enlightening.

    Is it a failure of personal and collective responsibility or is it a failure of a system of economy and government which offers so much in reward yet incarcerates so many as a proportion.

    Unfortunately, rather than seeing homelessness and drug addiction as a national problem requiring all sides to get involved, too many seek to make cheap political advantage.

    Actually, the poverty in somewhere like rural Mississippi is absolutely shocking. Not just relatively startling

    But I’m bored of bashing America now. It still makes bloody great TV for a start. And on that note I’m going to watch Succession

    Later
    My theory on America is that it is actually a montage of countries, ranging from third world, to somewhere in the late 22nd century.

    The American Dream is moving from the one to the other.
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,788
    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:
    Did you visit San Francisco in the 1990s? I'd be interested to know what it was like at that time compared to now.
    Or New York in the Seventies, Los Angeles or Chicago in the Eighties. There has always been a dark side to American cities.
    Even New York during the crack epidemic was not as bad as Fentanyl is now - in multiple cities

    I get the sense you haven’t been to urban America recently. I have. This shit is new and bad
    Some of us actually live in the US.
    It is not quite the hell-scape you pretend it is.

    I’ve spent several months of the last two years traveling around America. And I’m back again next week

    I’ve been to the West Coast, the desert states, Florida, the Deep South and the Rockies, etc

    It is fucked in a way I have not seen before. There is still phenomenal wealth and power - but the urban problems are palpable. New Orleans is the 8th most murderous city on the planet, the first 7 are all Mexican cities sunk in the drug wars
    America has such a disparity in income that you get astonishing scenes of deprivation.

    Britain is next in the income disparity stakes.
    You should do two months in your own country. There’s no New Orleans, but there’s also a kind of entrenched post-industrial squalor that is hard to find in other places too.
    There's nowhere in the UK I would be afraid to walk around in the middle of the night. That's how safe it is. London has had just 4 gun deaths this year, with a population of more than 9 million.
    Nowhere? You sure about that?
    https://what3words.com/discouraged.names.rules
    https://what3words.com/political.betting.comb

    Damn it, so close.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,563

    Dura_Ace said:

    The UCU stuff is a part of what Sir Keir was implicitly supporting whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet

    He's been impressively consistent in his support of Ukraine since

    But who knows how Slalom Sir Keir will respond next?

    Er... SKS can travel in time?

    If not, how did he express any opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet?
    Not being a Ukraine Ultra is a crime that is so grave that even innocence itself is no defence.
    Massive irony being, of course, that the total area illegally occupied by Russia (including territory of Georgia and Moldova, not just Ukraine!) is far in excess of the area illegally occupied by Israel!
    Zelensky is a Jew. Since Jews Don't Count.....
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Dura_Ace said:

    The UCU stuff is a part of what Sir Keir was implicitly supporting whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet

    He's been impressively consistent in his support of Ukraine since

    But who knows how Slalom Sir Keir will respond next?

    Er... SKS can travel in time?

    If not, how did he express any opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet?
    Not being a Ukraine Ultra is a crime that is so grave that even innocence itself is no defence.
    Perhaps if 'not being a Ukraine Ultra' is performatively expressed as a type of martyrdom, pretending it means anyone who doesn't uncritically buy into every piece of pro-Ukrainian propaganda online.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,563
    edited May 2023
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The UCU stuff is a part of what Sir Keir was implicitly supporting whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet

    He's been impressively consistent in his support of Ukraine since

    But who knows how Slalom Sir Keir will respond next?

    Er... SKS can travel in time?

    If not, how did he express any opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet?
    Not being a Ukraine Ultra is a crime that is so grave that even innocence itself is no defence.
    Perhaps if 'not being a Ukraine Ultra' is performatively expressed as a type of martyrdom, pretending it means anyone who doesn't uncritically buy into every piece of pro-Ukrainian propaganda online.
    When I here people upset about support for Ukraine vs the Manly Stonkiness Of Russia, I think of this -


    .....And he was much too good a journalist to spoil his contrast by remarking that the half-dozen comparatively slender young men in blue pajamas who were standing about their victorious land ironclad, drinking coffee and eating biscuits, had also in their eyes and carriage something not altogether degraded below the level of a man.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    A lot (all?) of the ranting about other countries is a form of copium espoused by Brexiters who can’t bear to think of their country being unflatteringly compared to others.

    Someone - probably SeanF - will be along soon to claim that the UK must be the best country in the world given the number of immigrants it receives.

    Most of these posters have never left Rochdale (or the equivalent), so perhaps can be excused the passive aggressive parochialism.

    I’m not sure what Leon’s excuse is, although I note that he never actually seems to be in the UK, and nor does he actually have the kind of job that exposes much you to everyday reality. As he never ceases to tell us.

    I’m not ranting. I’ve admitted several times that Britain has significant problems, from debt to inflation to our shambolic public services

    However, I’m also pointing out that I travel extremely widely around the world (and within the UK, even if you don’t believe me) and that gives me a perspective that maybe others here don’t get. I just see more and I can compare

    Many nations are troubled, just like the UK. The globe has recently gone through a calamitous plague, so it’s not surprising. Quite a few have problems which make ours look relatively minor

    Brexit is neither here nor there in this wider scheme
    This is exactly what i have been saying. We had serious problems in the EU: a horrendous trade deficit, excessive consumption and poor productivity. Funnily enough these problems persist but now they are being blamed on Brexit. It is absurd. What is disappointing is how small the steps that have been taken to address any of these. Covid and Ukraine have undoubtedly made this more difficult but I would like a better sense of purpose and direction.
    Yes, the really dismaying thing about the UK is the pitiful inertia of our politicians. Our problems are difficult but not intractable. We also have good things going for us. Someone please get a grip
    In part this is the oft noted point that we get the politicians we deserve - we rarely reward politicians offering radical solutions due to both reasonable caution toward radical solutions (which are often proposed by rabid ideologues with no care for reality), and a stubborn resistance to accepting there might be actual costs to solutions.

    However, our leaders do not get off the hook entirely. Great leaders can shape opinion not just follow it, and have long presented the solution to everything as incredibly simple - vote them in, and the problem will be fixed, nay, improved, whilst also probably being cheaper, and no don't ask for details - or careen about between different radical solutions without much assessment of if it is a good idea.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,602

    . .
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The UCU stuff is a part of what Sir Keir was implicitly supporting whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet

    He's been impressively consistent in his support of Ukraine since

    But who knows how Slalom Sir Keir will respond next?

    Er... SKS can travel in time?

    If not, how did he express any opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine whilst a member of Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet?
    Not being a Ukraine Ultra is a crime that is so grave that even innocence itself is no defence.
    Perhaps if 'not being a Ukraine Ultra' is performatively expressed as a type of martyrdom, pretending it means anyone who doesn't uncritically buy into every piece of pro-Ukrainian propaganda online.
    When I here people upset about support for Ukraine vs the Manly Stonkiness Of Russia, I think of this -


    .....And he was much too good a journalist to spoil his contrast by remarking that the half-dozen comparatively slender young men in blue pajamas who were standing about their victorious land ironclad, drinking coffee and eating biscuits, had also in their eyes and carriage something not altogether degraded below the level of a man.
    I'm put in mind of a variation of this quote when people try to make themselves free thinking martyrs against an unforgiving mob of online Ukrainian automatons.

    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991


    . .

    The sheep seems up for it.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Can't stop laughing at the fact that someone from Aylesbury thought Aylesbury was the furthest point from the sea in the UK.

    "Where, exactly, is the furthest point in Britain from the sea?
    Edward Lock, Harpenden, UK
    I was always led to believe it was Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, but it seems it would be Church Flatts farm, near Coton in the Elms in Derbyshire. Latitude: 52' 43.6'N. Longitude: 1' 37.2'W
    James Oaten, Aylesbury, England"

    https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-63924,00.html

    Is it that funny? I mean, he's wrong, but it's not like Aylesbury is a fishing village.
    Andy_JS has a very odd sense of humour.
    Is he a serial killer? I wouldn’t be surprised.
    As the old joke goes, I think the odds of there being two serial killers on here are pretty low, so I'm confident he probably isn't.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412


    . .

    Wascally Wabbit!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336


    . .

    That's not a very respectful way to refer to Dean Foresters.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336
    Of course, 'Welsh' is actually a corruption of 'Walisc,' which is the Saxon for 'alien'...
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,602
    It’s Official. Starmer’s Labour are complete idiots.

    They accepted money from Dale Vince.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    I've not been to America for a few years (certainly since the pandemic) but even before that I found San Francisco an intimidating city and the poverty was never far from the surface (literally) in Las Vegas.

    It is the most powerful nation and yet the levels of relative poverty (not absolute - even the poorest in America do better than many on the planet) are stark and enlightening.

    Is it a failure of personal and collective responsibility or is it a failure of a system of economy and government which offers so much in reward yet incarcerates so many as a proportion.

    Unfortunately, rather than seeing homelessness and drug addiction as a national problem requiring all sides to get involved, too many seek to make cheap political advantage.

    Actually, the poverty in somewhere like rural Mississippi is absolutely shocking. Not just relatively startling

    But I’m bored of bashing America now. It still makes bloody great TV for a start. And on that note I’m going to watch Succession

    Later
    It may be a feature, not a bug.

    The US is designed to make poverty very unpleasant. So, avoid it.
    Yes, the US is a great place to be rich, an OK place to be average but an awful place to be poor
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    ydoethur said:

    Of course, 'Welsh' is actually a corruption of 'Walisc,' which is the Saxon for 'alien'...

    These alien abduction stories suddenly make more sense.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336

    ydoethur said:

    Of course, 'Welsh' is actually a corruption of 'Walisc,' which is the Saxon for 'alien'...

    These alien abduction stories suddenly make more sense.
    There was a time when we were snow donder with those stories.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    I've just been having a look through some UCU and their local affiliates' twitter accounts

    They're in the middle of a huge pay dispute with their employers, but they're mostly going on about Palestine and Trans

    And they've just passed a motion condemning our support of Ukraine

    Why the fuck aren't aren't they focussed on education?

    What precisely is this Ukraine motion?
    A heap of shit?
    Is that the full text of the motion?

    My question was genuine.
    Congress notes:

    one year after the brutal invasion, Ukraine has become a battleground for Russian and US imperialism
    it is estimated that 150,000 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians and 200,000 Russian soldiers have died since invasion
    Putin has threatened the use of nuclear weapons and unleashed war crimes
    the 2022 NATO summit committed to a US military base in Poland, a brigade in Romania, air missile systems in Italy and Germany and two additional F-35 squadrons in Britain
    Volodymyr Zelensky says he wants Ukraine to become a 'big Israel'—an armed, illiberal outpost of US imperialism.
    Congress believes:

    wars are fought by the poor and unemployed of one country killing and maiming the poor and unemployed of another
    we should say, 'Russian troops out, no to NATO escalation and expansion'
    we should stand in solidarity with ordinary Ukrainians and demand an immediate withdrawal of Russian troops
    NATO is not a progressive force: escalation risks widening war in the region
    only through a peaceful resolution can lives be saved.
    Resolves:

    UCU to call upon Russian to withdraw its troops and for government to stop arming Ukraine
    UCU to call for a peaceful resolution to the war
    Congress resolves to support protests called by Stop The War, CND and other anti-war organisations.

    But I think 'a heap of shit' was pithier, and summed up the general thrust of it.

    Here's a full list of resolutions.

    https://www.ucu.org.uk/article/12945/Business-of-the-strategy-and-finance-committee-open-session

    On a serious note, the UCU is anxious to avoid talking about employment matters because they would have to admit (a) they spend much of their time making cosy deals with the management and (b) they don't give a fuck about their members and never have since it was formed back in I think 2006.

    It's been an utter disaster for universities and their staff, vice chancellors apart, that the AUT and NATFHE merged. Although it has benefitted the Union bosses, most of whom make McCluskey look honest, to an enormous degree.

    Long may NASUWT hold out against the Nutters forcing something similar in school education.
    Student politics. With bald patches. At UCL, every now and then the nutters would pass a resolution voting to give money to the IRA or something.

    And then several hundred students would turn up and vote all their crap out. While they snivelled about it not being fair.
    What is it about these organisations that so enthralls a certain type of 'activist' to hijack them to bang on about things that are completely irrelevant, to pursue their personal hobby horse? Doesn't seem to matter all that much what the professional field is, though I presume some are worse for it than others.

    I found it very hard to vote in a recent union election because a) for the most part everyone agreed on the basic points b) a large proportion still felt the need to get explicitly party political in a way which seemed to me to be pointless other than to compete in displays of fervour, and c) there was clearly factioning going on with candidates asking for specific others to receive votes on different slates, but very little reference to what connected them, or even no reference at all, making me wonder what the heck was going on.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623


    . .

    The "proud to love animals" tag-line still doesn't look any better in that context.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    ydoethur said:

    Of course, 'Welsh' is actually a corruption of 'Walisc,' which is the Saxon for 'alien'...

    Foreigner. Stranger.
    The Saxons arrived, and called the people already here foreigners.

    Of course, things have changed a lot since then, and the boot is now on the other foot. These days, if you say you're English, you're be arrested and thrown in jail.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    ydoethur said:

    Of course, 'Welsh' is actually a corruption of 'Walisc,' which is the Saxon for 'alien'...

    Making people foreigners in their own country, you can't say the Saxons couldn't do propaganda. Ok, backed up by the sword admittedly.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,994
    edited May 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. First that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and second that, in spite of all that, he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. Fist that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and two that in spite of all that he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    Oh. Are we about to go back to calling people "beta cucks"? I really miss that aspect of 2016.
  • Options
    northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,533
    Good job we Brexited to rid ourselves of all that pesky red tape that was strangling trade.

    Oh.


  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,135
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    I've not been to America for a few years (certainly since the pandemic) but even before that I found San Francisco an intimidating city and the poverty was never far from the surface (literally) in Las Vegas.

    It is the most powerful nation and yet the levels of relative poverty (not absolute - even the poorest in America do better than many on the planet) are stark and enlightening.

    Is it a failure of personal and collective responsibility or is it a failure of a system of economy and government which offers so much in reward yet incarcerates so many as a proportion.

    Unfortunately, rather than seeing homelessness and drug addiction as a national problem requiring all sides to get involved, too many seek to make cheap political advantage.

    Actually, the poverty in somewhere like rural Mississippi is absolutely shocking. Not just relatively startling

    But I’m bored of bashing America now. It still makes bloody great TV for a start. And on that note I’m going to watch Succession

    Later
    The last episode was perfect.
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,979

    It’s Official. Starmer’s Labour are complete idiots.

    They accepted money from Dale Vince.

    Weren’t the donations made before he started supporting Just Stop Oil.

    In which case what’s the problem. The DM needs to STFU over the outage given the Tories were awash with Russian money .
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,994
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. Fist that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and two that in spite of all that he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    Oh. Are we about to go back to calling people "beta cucks"? I really miss that aspect of 2016.
    Don't even know what the phrase means (sheltered upbringing I guess). But if it means Major is a useless twat who doesn't know when he is being bent over a table and shafted like a junior minister from South Derbyshire then it seems apt.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,874
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. Fist that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and two that in spite of all that he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    Oh. Are we about to go back to calling people "beta cucks"? I really miss that aspect of 2016.
    It is not clear which timeline Tyndall inhabits. He seems to think the UK was hampered by social chapter regulation whereas in the real world it had (has) one of the most deregulated labour markets in the world.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,994

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. Fist that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and two that in spite of all that he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    Oh. Are we about to go back to calling people "beta cucks"? I really miss that aspect of 2016.
    It is not clear which timeline Tyndall inhabits. He seems to think the UK was hampered by social chapter regulation whereas in the real world it had (has) one of the most deregulated labour markets in the world.
    It was not me that was complaining about the Social Chapter, it was Major himself, sobbing about betrayal and being deceived in his own letters to the Commission President. Dumb fuck (Major, not you).
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,111

    Good job we Brexited to rid ourselves of all that pesky red tape that was strangling trade.

    Oh.


    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy). EU red tape affected 100% of the economy.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,874
    edited May 2023
    WillG said:

    Good job we Brexited to rid ourselves of all that pesky red tape that was strangling trade.

    Oh.


    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy). EU red tape affected 100% of the economy.
    Another one of those “1+1=bananas” statements.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,111
    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Of course, 'Welsh' is actually a corruption of 'Walisc,' which is the Saxon for 'alien'...

    Foreigner. Stranger.
    The Saxons arrived, and called the people already here foreigners.

    Of course, things have changed a lot since then, and the boot is now on the other foot. These days, if you say you're English, you're be arrested and thrown in jail.
    To be fair, the Saxons called people back on the continent foreigners too.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallachians
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloons
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130

    Good job we Brexited to rid ourselves of all that pesky red tape that was strangling trade.

    Oh.


    The French may be being overly officious, but if the packaging is that specialised that it needs to be couriered I would have thought it's obvious that it has a value.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,111
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    A lot (all?) of the ranting about other countries is a form of copium espoused by Brexiters who can’t bear to think of their country being unflatteringly compared to others.

    Someone - probably SeanF - will be along soon to claim that the UK must be the best country in the world given the number of immigrants it receives.

    Most of these posters have never left Rochdale (or the equivalent), so perhaps can be excused the passive aggressive parochialism.

    I’m not sure what Leon’s excuse is, although I note that he never actually seems to be in the UK, and nor does he actually have the kind of job that exposes much you to everyday reality. As he never ceases to tell us.

    I’m not ranting. I’ve admitted several times that Britain has significant problems, from debt to inflation to our shambolic public services

    However, I’m also pointing out that I travel extremely widely around the world (and within the UK, even if you don’t believe me) and that gives me a perspective that maybe others here don’t get. I just see more and I can compare

    Many nations are troubled, just like the UK. The globe has recently gone through a calamitous plague, so it’s not surprising. Quite a few have problems which make ours look relatively minor

    Brexit is neither here nor there in this wider scheme
    This is exactly what i have been saying. We had serious problems in the EU: a horrendous trade deficit, excessive consumption and poor productivity. Funnily enough these problems persist but now they are being blamed on Brexit. It is absurd. What is disappointing is how small the steps that have been taken to address any of these. Covid and Ukraine have undoubtedly made this more difficult but I would like a better sense of purpose and direction.
    Yes, the really dismaying thing about the UK is the pitiful inertia of our politicians. Our problems are difficult but not intractable. We also have good things going for us. Someone please get a grip
    In part this is the oft noted point that we get the politicians we deserve - we rarely reward politicians offering radical solutions due to both reasonable caution toward radical solutions (which are often proposed by rabid ideologues with no care for reality), and a stubborn resistance to accepting there might be actual costs to solutions.

    However, our leaders do not get off the hook entirely. Great leaders can shape opinion not just follow it, and have long presented the solution to everything as incredibly simple - vote them in, and the problem will be fixed, nay, improved, whilst also probably being cheaper, and no don't ask for details - or careen about between different radical solutions without much assessment of if it is a good idea.
    Britain's deep rooted scepticism of big bold ideas has been a source of strength, as it had made us resistant to the temptations of fascism and communism. One of the main reasons we haven't had a revolution since Cromwell. But it is also a source of weakness. Trying to rewire a British company to work differently is incredibly hard compared to doing the same thing in the US.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,602
    edited May 2023
    nico679 said:

    It’s Official. Starmer’s Labour are complete idiots.

    They accepted money from Dale Vince.

    Weren’t the donations made before he started supporting Just Stop Oil.

    In which case what’s the problem. The DM needs to STFU over the outage given the Tories were awash with Russian money .
    You trying to spin it that Dale Vince money is somehow more acceptable as money from Putin’s regime? Good luck with that spin. Dale Vince is underwriting all the over the top eco activism out there. He’s at war with all of us sensible balanced people.

    It’s transparent what you are doing, going on attack as you don’t have a defence on this one.

    They who pay the Piper, play the tune Nico. No energy security for UK under Labour as they are dancing to Vince Dales funding.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,111
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    I've not been to America for a few years (certainly since the pandemic) but even before that I found San Francisco an intimidating city and the poverty was never far from the surface (literally) in Las Vegas.

    It is the most powerful nation and yet the levels of relative poverty (not absolute - even the poorest in America do better than many on the planet) are stark and enlightening.

    Is it a failure of personal and collective responsibility or is it a failure of a system of economy and government which offers so much in reward yet incarcerates so many as a proportion.

    Unfortunately, rather than seeing homelessness and drug addiction as a national problem requiring all sides to get involved, too many seek to make cheap political advantage.

    Actually, the poverty in somewhere like rural Mississippi is absolutely shocking. Not just relatively startling

    But I’m bored of bashing America now. It still makes bloody great TV for a start. And on that note I’m going to watch Succession

    Later
    It may be a feature, not a bug.

    The US is designed to make poverty very unpleasant. So, avoid it.
    Yes, the US is a great place to be rich, an OK place to be average but an awful place to be poor
    Which is not a feature at all. Making poverty awful doesn't increase the chance you will get out of it. It makes it harder to escape.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,143
    WillG said:

    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy).

    Bollocks.

    Try buying from suppliers in Europe now.

    It's a fucking shitshow.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    Scott_xP said:

    WillG said:

    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy).

    Bollocks.

    Try buying from suppliers in Europe now.

    It's a fucking shitshow.
    So domestic suppliers now have a competitive advantage? It will be interesting to see the medium-term effects of that.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,135

    WillG said:

    Good job we Brexited to rid ourselves of all that pesky red tape that was strangling trade.

    Oh.


    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy). EU red tape affected 100% of the economy.
    Another one of those “1+1=bananas” statements.
    Straight bananas at that.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,792
    Word of warning, the Koreans seem to have landed on the optimal alcohol concentration to get trolleyed without effort.
    Soju, at 20% alcohol, is bland enough to neck rapidly in large quantities, but potent enough to render you senseless remarkably quickly.

    On that note, I bid you all goodnight.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128

    Good job we Brexited to rid ourselves of all that pesky red tape that was strangling trade.

    Oh.


    Thanks for the warning.

    I'll be off to Asda again tomorrow to stock up on £4 wine while I still can.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,995
    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Of course, 'Welsh' is actually a corruption of 'Walisc,' which is the Saxon for 'alien'...

    Foreigner. Stranger.
    The Saxons arrived, and called the people already here foreigners.

    Of course, things have changed a lot since then, and the boot is now on the other foot. These days, if you say you're English, you're be arrested and thrown in jail.
    Bloody Beaker People.
    Coming over here with their ceramic technology.
    What was wrong with cupping your hands to drink?
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,135

    Scott_xP said:

    WillG said:

    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy).

    Bollocks.

    Try buying from suppliers in Europe now.

    It's a fucking shitshow.
    So domestic suppliers now have a competitive advantage? It will be interesting to see the medium-term effects of that.
    Prosperity through autarky! The Pyongyang School of Economics has another graduate.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,111
    Leon said:

    If this was American PB.com, everywhere here would live in Omaha, Nebraska or Raleigh, North Carolina, in 4000 sq ft houses with neighbours who say “Howdy!” and bake cookies for the school lacrosse team.

    It’s really three or four different countries.

    London, UK, population 8.9 million; homicides in 2022: 109

    Omaha, Nebraska, population 487,000; homicides in 2022: 31

    Hmm

    That said I do take your point. Lots of Americans in the nicer small towns and richer suburbs have enviably lovely lives, entirely untroubled by violence and decay

    Trouble is an awful lot of Americans live in the great cities, and nearly all of them have these increasingly menacing issues

    Rome in the 4th century was like this. The cities decayed but the rich retreated to small towns and villas and, for them, life remained great
    A huge chunk, perhaps the majority, of the population of the "great American cities" live in leafy green suburbs. And crime in the downturn cores is nowhere near what it was in the late 80s. Plus in most cities it is dropping from COVID highs.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,602
    Nigelb said:

    Word of warning, the Koreans seem to have landed on the optimal alcohol concentration to get trolleyed without effort.
    Soju, at 20% alcohol, is bland enough to neck rapidly in large quantities, but potent enough to render you senseless remarkably quickly.

    On that note, I bid you all goodnight.

    Enjoy your sojourn in bed :)
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130

    Scott_xP said:

    WillG said:

    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy).

    Bollocks.

    Try buying from suppliers in Europe now.

    It's a fucking shitshow.
    So domestic suppliers now have a competitive advantage? It will be interesting to see the medium-term effects of that.
    Prosperity through autarky! The Pyongyang School of Economics has another graduate.
    It's hardly autarky when the UK has one of the most open economies in the world.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,235

    Scott_xP said:

    WillG said:

    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy).

    Bollocks.

    Try buying from suppliers in Europe now.

    It's a fucking shitshow.
    So domestic suppliers now have a competitive advantage? It will be interesting to see the medium-term effects of that.
    Prosperity through autarky! The Pyongyang School of Economics has another graduate.
    This is probably an easy undergraduate question, so forgive me. But how does the world economy generate prosperity, absent trade with other planets?
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,111
    I looked it up. The greatest American city, New York, is primarily suburban, with 58% of the population living in suburbs.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. First that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and second that, in spite of all that, he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    It should be remembered that Major increased interest rates more in a day than has happened during the last 18 months.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,907

    It’s Official. Starmer’s Labour are complete idiots.

    They accepted money from Dale Vince.

    Dale who?
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,322

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. Fist that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and two that in spite of all that he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    Oh. Are we about to go back to calling people "beta cucks"? I really miss that aspect of 2016.
    It is not clear which timeline Tyndall inhabits. He seems to think the UK was hampered by social chapter regulation whereas in the real world it had (has) one of the most deregulated labour markets in the world.
    It was not me that was complaining about the Social Chapter, it was Major himself, sobbing about betrayal and being deceived in his own letters to the Commission President. Dumb fuck (Major, not you).
    Major's antipathy towards the Social Chapter clearly didn't last: Labour soon signed up to it anyway, the sky didn't fall in, and Major wanted us to stay in the EU. So that really is the mootest of moot points.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,082
    WillG said:

    Good job we Brexited to rid ourselves of all that pesky red tape that was strangling trade.

    Oh.


    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy). EU red tape affected 100% of the economy.
    Plus it is self evident that unused packaging has a value. The guy messed up
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    I've not been to America for a few years (certainly since the pandemic) but even before that I found San Francisco an intimidating city and the poverty was never far from the surface (literally) in Las Vegas.

    It is the most powerful nation and yet the levels of relative poverty (not absolute - even the poorest in America do better than many on the planet) are stark and enlightening.

    Is it a failure of personal and collective responsibility or is it a failure of a system of economy and government which offers so much in reward yet incarcerates so many as a proportion.

    Unfortunately, rather than seeing homelessness and drug addiction as a national problem requiring all sides to get involved, too many seek to make cheap political advantage.

    Actually, the poverty in somewhere like rural Mississippi is absolutely shocking. Not just relatively startling

    But I’m bored of bashing America now. It still makes bloody great TV for a start. And on that note I’m going to watch Succession

    Later
    It may be a feature, not a bug.

    The US is designed to make poverty very unpleasant. So, avoid it.
    I wonder if that could be a legacy of the settler versus indentured workers / slaves split.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,602
    Andy_JS said:

    It’s Official. Starmer’s Labour are complete idiots.

    They accepted money from Dale Vince.

    Dale who?
    Dangerous extremist.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,907

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Can't stop laughing at the fact that someone from Aylesbury thought Aylesbury was the furthest point from the sea in the UK.

    "Where, exactly, is the furthest point in Britain from the sea?
    Edward Lock, Harpenden, UK
    I was always led to believe it was Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, but it seems it would be Church Flatts farm, near Coton in the Elms in Derbyshire. Latitude: 52' 43.6'N. Longitude: 1' 37.2'W
    James Oaten, Aylesbury, England"

    https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-63924,00.html

    Is it that funny? I mean, he's wrong, but it's not like Aylesbury is a fishing village.
    Andy_JS has a very odd sense of humour.
    Is he a serial killer? I wouldn’t be surprised.
    I also find these Little Britain sketches amusing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMboDekgvz0
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,637
    To illustrate the rampant anglophilia of PBS (Public Broadcasting Service) in the USA, the network is now broadcasting "The Queen at War" as part of its Memorial Day programming.

    Do NOT expect any revelations re: involvement of then-Princess Elizabeth in the debacle of Dieppe!
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,959
    Leon said:

    If this was American PB.com, everywhere here would live in Omaha, Nebraska or Raleigh, North Carolina, in 4000 sq ft houses with neighbours who say “Howdy!” and bake cookies for the school lacrosse team.

    It’s really three or four different countries.

    London, UK, population 8.9 million; homicides in 2022: 109

    Omaha, Nebraska, population 487,000; homicides in 2022: 31

    Hmm

    That said I do take your point. Lots of Americans in the nicer small towns and richer suburbs have enviably lovely lives, entirely untroubled by violence and decay

    Trouble is an awful lot of Americans live in the great cities, and nearly all of them have these increasingly menacing issues

    Rome in the 4th century was like this. The cities decayed but the rich retreated to small towns and villas and, for them, life remained great
    I was getting a train back from a rather enjoyable beer festival with a historian a few years ago. As the rampant weeds brushed against the windows he remarked "You know, it was the roads. It was the roads the Romans all spoke about during the decline."

  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,979

    nico679 said:

    It’s Official. Starmer’s Labour are complete idiots.

    They accepted money from Dale Vince.

    Weren’t the donations made before he started supporting Just Stop Oil.

    In which case what’s the problem. The DM needs to STFU over the outage given the Tories were awash with Russian money .
    You trying to spin it that Dale Vince money is somehow more acceptable as money from Putin’s regime? Good luck with that spin. Dale Vince is underwriting all the over the top eco activism out there. He’s at war with all of us sensible balanced people.

    It’s transparent what you are doing, going on attack as you don’t have a defence on this one.

    They who pay the Piper, play the tune Nico. No energy security for UK under Labour as they are dancing to Vince Dales funding.
    What’s worse trying to save the planet or taking Russian money ? The DM is a hate filled piece of trash. Vince has also donated to Greenpeace. I’m not defending all the actions of Just Stop Oil but making the point that the DM needs to STFU with the outrage given its wholehearted support for the Tories when they were rolling in Russian money . I look forward to the DM asking the Tories to return their Russian blood money !
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412

    Andy_JS said:

    It’s Official. Starmer’s Labour are complete idiots.

    They accepted money from Dale Vince.

    Dale who?
    Dangerous extremist.
    Climate Change is far more dangerous...
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,602
    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Of course, 'Welsh' is actually a corruption of 'Walisc,' which is the Saxon for 'alien'...

    Foreigner. Stranger.
    The Saxons arrived, and called the people already here foreigners.

    Of course, things have changed a lot since then, and the boot is now on the other foot. These days, if you say you're English, you're be arrested and thrown in jail.
    Quite a lot of Viking woven into the Scottish fabric.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Scotland
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,950
    dixiedean said:

    ...Bloody Beaker People. Coming over here...

    I preferred Kermit

  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,028
    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    WillG said:

    New red tape only affects UK exports to Europe (14% of the economy).

    Bollocks.

    Try buying from suppliers in Europe now.

    It's a fucking shitshow.
    So domestic suppliers now have a competitive advantage? It will be interesting to see the medium-term effects of that.
    Prosperity through autarky! The Pyongyang School of Economics has another graduate.
    This is probably an easy undergraduate question, so forgive me. But how does the world economy generate prosperity, absent trade with other planets?
    Surely the question is whether there would be greater prosperity if we were in SM/CU with other worlds. Pork markets on Mars.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,602

    Andy_JS said:

    It’s Official. Starmer’s Labour are complete idiots.

    They accepted money from Dale Vince.

    Dale who?
    Dangerous extremist.
    Climate Change is far more dangerous...
    Tackle it rationally then, not irrationally.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. First that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and second that, in spite of all that, he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    It should be remembered that Major increased interest rates more in a day than has happened during the last 18 months.
    Major left an inflation rate of 3%, it was 9% in 1990 when he came in, 4.6% in 2010 when Brown left office and is now 9%
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. First that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and second that, in spite of all that, he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    Majors's opt out from the Euro certainly meant something
  • Options
    WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited May 2023
    Immanentisation of the eschaton alert:
    Guardian: "Suspected Russia-trained spy whale reappears off Sweden’s coast".
    The time is so ripe for a son of crop circles or son of UFOs hoax.
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,959
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. First that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and second that, in spite of all that, he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    It should be remembered that Major increased interest rates more in a day than has happened during the last 18 months.
    Major left an inflation rate of 3%, it was 9% in 1990 when he came in, 4.6% in 2010 when Brown left office and is now 9%
    Damn Nigel Lawson and his inflationary ways.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    If this was American PB.com, everywhere here would live in Omaha, Nebraska or Raleigh, North Carolina, in 4000 sq ft houses with neighbours who say “Howdy!” and bake cookies for the school lacrosse team.

    It’s really three or four different countries.

    London, UK, population 8.9 million; homicides in 2022: 109

    Omaha, Nebraska, population 487,000; homicides in 2022: 31

    Hmm

    That said I do take your point. Lots of Americans in the nicer small towns and richer suburbs have enviably lovely lives, entirely untroubled by violence and decay

    Trouble is an awful lot of Americans live in the great cities, and nearly all of them have these increasingly menacing issues

    Rome in the 4th century was like this. The cities decayed but the rich retreated to small towns and villas and, for them, life remained great
    I was getting a train back from a rather enjoyable beer festival with a historian a few years ago. As the rampant weeds brushed against the windows he remarked "You know, it was the roads. It was the roads the Romans all spoke about during the decline."

    Weeds = wild flowers = good for the environment.

    Who wants the world to look as manicured as a cemetery ?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,950
    carnforth said:

    But how does the world economy generate prosperity, absent trade with other planets?

    Wealth is created by trade and creating things - the movement of things from low-value uses to high-value uses. A tree and a seam of iron becomes an axe, which is traded to somebody who needs an axe. The faster and more often people trade, the faster and more often people create things, the more wealthier we are.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Rishi is pretty awful. An extremely wealthy nonentity who is out of his depth. He comes across as a schoolboy.

    In the last week we have seen more chaotic manoeuvring from Suella, an absolute shambles on immigration, and a quite extraordinary announcement about price capping, and there's a disturbing undercurrent in the mortgage / lending market. They are managing the singularly impressive feat of appealing to nobody.

    The tories are toast. Everybody knows it. I doubt whether opinion polls will change much right up to the day of the General Election.

    Rishi is fine. He's just not good enough to undo 13 years of failure
    He’s crap.
    He’s sub-Major, let’s be honest.

    It’s only in comparison with the deranged Truss and the flamboyant larceny of Johnson that he seems “fine”.
    John Major seems to come out better with every year that passes after his humiliating defeat in 1997.

    In fact 26 years since he left office, Major is still the longest serving Conservative PM since Thatcher and still won the most votes for any PM in history in his surprise 1992 re election victory. He left a growing economy and balanced budget for New Labour and low inflation, secured an opt out from the Euro while keeping the UK in the EU, won the Gulf War with Bush 41 and set the way for peace in Northern Ireland.

    Very interesting talk and Q and A by Sir John at the Oxford Union in March here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3vKLMtRgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutpaMhsfKE
    I would say this, but I think Major rather spoiled his capacity to be a respected uniter in the party as he has veered ever further into angry europhilia. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be free to express it, but he speaks about European issues with the same dull-witted sarcastic barbs (fondly self-imagined to be the height of wit) as all angry remainers do. It makes me question how fiercely really he negotiated Maastricht on our behalf.
    I am always amused by the sense of hurt and betrayal he managed to get into the letter he wrote to the European Commission President after he was stitched up over the Social Chapter just before he was ousted. It shows two things clearly. First that he was dumb enough to believe the opt outs he thought he had secured actually meant anything and second that, in spite of all that, he still couldn't break his love affair with the EC. He behaved like a betrayed spouse still not quite believing the marriage has gone wrong.
    It should be remembered that Major increased interest rates more in a day than has happened during the last 18 months.
    Major left an inflation rate of 3%, it was 9% in 1990 when he came in, 4.6% in 2010 when Brown left office and is now 9%
    Damn Nigel Lawson and his inflationary ways.
    Shadowing the DM and cutting interest rates during a genuine economic boom to do so.

    Followed by the 'oil shock' of 1990.
This discussion has been closed.