Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

How Starmer compares with other opposition leaders at this stage – politicalbetting.com

13

Comments

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    DavidL said:

    I would say that in the last 3 years Starmer has made Labour electable again which is no mean feat after the catastrophe of the Corbyn era. He has driven those low life nutters out of Labour in the same way Kinnick did with Militant. He has also sought to reorientate Labour to the centre ground by abandoning the pledges that got him elected one at a time.

    The package he is offering now is dull, boring and safe. Which is exactly what he needs. I still think he will make a small majority with the help of a serious dod of seats from Scotland.

    He is no Tony Blair or even David Cameron but he has been a significantly better than average LOTO.

    I think so much of being a successful LOTO is timing.

    If Keir Starmer had tried exactly the same things up against Cameron in GE2015 he'd probably have got no further than Ed Miliband - especially as his personal presence and ratings are so bland.

    People just weren't willing to give Labour a hearing then and wanted the Conservatives to continue with their plan. The same applies, of course, in inverse to Rishi as PM now. It will apply to the next Conservative LOTO, in particular.

    So remember that point next time someone is "crap": timing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    @SheffCouncil
    Today, we are remembering George Floyd, who 3 years ago was killed by a former US police officer.

    In Sheffield, we are committed to a three-year improvement plan to become an anti-racist city and are currently carrying out a six-month review on the initial targets.


    https://twitter.com/sheffcouncil/status/1661665132491993088
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    edited May 2023
    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Given US portion sizes perhaps there should be a ban on serving the whole enchilada and it should be split into thirds for breakfast, lunch and dinner?
    Not sure if you're joking, but "the whole enchilada" is a common phrase in the US like "the whole shooting match" or "the whole kit and caboodle" here.
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole shooting match with respect to public health in this country.”

    Still sounds stupid.

    (And everyone knows what 'the whole enchilada' means.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Expectations. £20K isn't a lot of money in much of the UK. And healthcare professionals see themselves as higher up the totem pole than security guards....
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016

    Comedy from Jenrick. A 24% YonY increase in migration shows the government is reducing migration, and you can't trust Labour as they don't want to reduce migration like the government are doing.

    It’s the old falling inflation trick.

    Everything you need to live is only going up by 8.7% rather than 10.1%, vastly expensive trebles all round!
    I wouldn’t order any food btw.
    No don't order food. That's going up at 19% still and not showing any real signs of easing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited May 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:


    Ukranians (mostly temporary)

    I don't know about this. We know quite a few Ukrainians and some do want to go back but I'd estimate it at much less than 50%. The ones with kids in particular seem most intent on staying.

    Also, the first wave of refugees were from Donetsk, Zaporizhzhiya, Dnipropetrovsk, etc. because the places in the East got the most fucked up at the start. Lots of these people are culturally, ethnically and linguistically Russian so they are somewhat unsure about what their status will be in whatever post-SMO Ukraine looks like. This fear also fuels return hesitancy.

    There's an upbeat article in the New Yorker this morning about conditions and combat on the "Zero Line". Well worth a read. It's basically Passchendaele but with smartphones.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/05/29/two-weeks-at-the-front-in-ukraine
    I think it depends very much on who and where they have to go back to.

    A couple of Ukranians I know quite well, mother and daughter, are returning to Kiev next month, a place which is relatively calm and where the husband lives.

    Single mothers, or war widows, from the areas currently under occupation or seriously affected by the war, may take longer to make the decision.

    A lot of minds will change at the point where the war actually finishes, some will be eager to go back and help with rebuilding their country, others will wonder if they have any reason to want to return at all.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    Work visas have increased from 162,588 to 345,451 in the year ending March 2023. Other visas including humanitarian schemes for Ukrainians, Afghans and Syrians have also soared from 51,031 to 265,270 in the same period.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/25/uk-net-migration-record-high-despite-tory-promises-cut-arrivals

    21-22 figures on work visas:


    What the hell does the country need more 'management consultants' for ?
    Because the UK, and London in particular, is home to a number of global companies that are HQ'ed here that have complex supply chains and organisations internationally that need constant change and adaptation to remain relevant to their market and customer base, and they don't have the skills in-house.

    Management consultants help them do it, and pay a lot of tax to the exchequer too.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016

    @SheffCouncil
    Today, we are remembering George Floyd, who 3 years ago was killed by a former US police officer.

    In Sheffield, we are committed to a three-year improvement plan to become an anti-racist city and are currently carrying out a six-month review on the initial targets.


    https://twitter.com/sheffcouncil/status/1661665132491993088

    WTF is the point in that...?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Eabhal said:

    Work visas have increased from 162,588 to 345,451 in the year ending March 2023. Other visas including humanitarian schemes for Ukrainians, Afghans and Syrians have also soared from 51,031 to 265,270 in the same period.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/25/uk-net-migration-record-high-despite-tory-promises-cut-arrivals

    21-22 figures on work visas:


    The number of computer programmers and software developers required is an indictment of the younger generation given how much time they spend on social media and playing games.

    Basic spreadsheet ability is seriously lacking in many young office workers.
    Basic anything ability is seriously lacking in many older office workers.

    (We need to make training/education in your 40s and 50s culturally acceptable. I'll be working into my 70s).
    It’s acceptable; it’s just not available.
    It is also far from true, I see far more IT illiterate millenials than I do those in their 40's and 50's because we have had spread sheets and word processors and email basically all our working lives and pc's were mainly work machines whereas for them computers are largely entertainment and they think of them as such
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Work visas have increased from 162,588 to 345,451 in the year ending March 2023. Other visas including humanitarian schemes for Ukrainians, Afghans and Syrians have also soared from 51,031 to 265,270 in the same period.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/25/uk-net-migration-record-high-despite-tory-promises-cut-arrivals

    21-22 figures on work visas:


    What the hell does the country need more 'management consultants' for ?
    Because the UK, and London in particular, is home to a number of global companies that are HQ'ed here that have complex supply chains and organisations internationally that need constant change and adaptation to remain relevant to their market and customer base, and they don't have the skills in-house.

    Management consultants help them do it, and pay a lot of tax to the exchequer too.
    For a lot of the international consultancy houses, and the international businesses they support, getting skilled worker visas for the UK became somewhat easier this year.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
  • RichardrRichardr Posts: 80
    algarkirk said:

    Re the article, in January Peter Kellner opined that Labour need a 10 point lead to get a majority with tactical voting, and a 13 point lead on UNS.

    here it is:

    https://kellnerpolitics.com/2023/01/27/801/

    So, if correct, Michael Smithson's view is if anything understated.
    A useful exercise is to think, even incompletely, of this: if Labour need to hold all their seats and win 125 extra to obtain a majority of 1, which are the 125 seats they will win? And which is the 125th most difficult of those they will win. And do you still think they will?

    If the SNP do well, and Labour miss some targets, they may need to get down to seats Rugby, Rochford, Banbury (155th place) to win a majority. Don't bet the farm.

    Anyway, Lab needing LD support is the best result available!

    One of the issues as you touch on is Scotland. As Kelner's states, a 13% lead for Labour would give it just three seats in Scotland on Universal National Swing. Whether that is realistic depends on the SNP vote, something that isn't really subject to the same swing factors as elsewhere.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Yes there is no great enthusiasm for Starmer, he trails both Blair and Cameron in terms of net satisfaction when leader of the opposition and they both of course won the next general elections. However he does at least have better ratings then the likes of Corbyn, Miliband, Howard, IDS, Hague and Kinnock and Foot who all lost.

    So that means that while voters won't be voting for a Starmer led government with any great desire, they won't be voting Conservative to keep him out of No 10 either. So the unpopularity of the government will still likely see a Labour government after the next general election
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    Andy_JS said:

    "Cashless Britain is a disaster waiting to happen
    Relentless march towards digital payments doesn’t benefit the average consumer
    Adam Williams"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/cashless-britain-disaster-waiting-happen/

    Is Adam Williams dim or just lazy?

    “ Business owners like cash because it helps them avoid the sky-high card processing fees charged by banks and machine provider”

    This is provably wrong. Cash handling is more expensive - as some basic desk research would quickly tell him.

    Cash is inconvenient, dirty, wasteful, risky and pointless. The idea that we are still going to be carrying around silly scraps of paper and shards of worthless metal in our pockets in any great volume in the next decade is for the birds.
    Relying on money systems which have no paper/coin based cash back up for digital/electronic failure even for small amounts for a short time is not entirely risk free.

    As anyone without cash wanting to use the buffet/buy a drink on train journey I made recently from London Euston to the north of England will have found out.

    That was trivial, but in the real world just as we are only 48 hours from food riots at all times, we are also only hours from a cash riot at all times.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited May 2023

    @SheffCouncil
    Today, we are remembering George Floyd, who 3 years ago was killed by a former US police officer.

    In Sheffield, we are committed to a three-year improvement plan to become an anti-racist city and are currently carrying out a six-month review on the initial targets.


    https://twitter.com/sheffcouncil/status/1661665132491993088

    Presumably they’re starting with the defunding of South Yorkshire Police?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Given US portion sizes perhaps there should be a ban on serving the whole enchilada and it should be split into thirds for breakfast, lunch and dinner?
    Not sure if you're joking, but "the whole enchilada" is a common phrase in the US like "the whole shooting match" or "the whole kit and caboodle" here.
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole shooting match with respect to public health in this country.”

    Still sounds stupid.

    (And everyone knows what 'the whole enchilada' means.)
    "Major overhaul of public health" I suppose he means. He's got a lot of padding in there.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    My irony generator is poor verging on terrible. Mea maxima culpa.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    @SheffCouncil
    Today, we are remembering George Floyd, who 3 years ago was killed by a former US police officer.

    In Sheffield, we are committed to a three-year improvement plan to become an anti-racist city and are currently carrying out a six-month review on the initial targets.


    https://twitter.com/sheffcouncil/status/1661665132491993088

    WTF is the point in that...?
    The point is that an an Anti-Racism committee can be appointed for each major organisation in the city. This will require a chain of reporting up and down the line. This in turn requires a Senior Management Team person to lead. Targets can be created. At the end of the year, at a big awards ceremony, the SMT can give each other awards for their brilliant performance in anti-racism work.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    It depends whether you think universities are here in the UK to serve a global market or global demand, largely to educate Britons, or a mixture of the two.

    Private schools get around this by charging a market rate for fees, but also capping numbers from, say, China - which they could otherwise fill their schools with several times over - and setting up satellites there instead.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    edited May 2023

    @SheffCouncil
    Today, we are remembering George Floyd, who 3 years ago was killed by a former US police officer.

    In Sheffield, we are committed to a three-year improvement plan to become an anti-racist city and are currently carrying out a six-month review on the initial targets.


    https://twitter.com/sheffcouncil/status/1661665132491993088

    WTF is the point in that...?
    Perhaps to do something more than just "systematic tokenism and vacuous protestations"?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    My mum keeps going on about Indian "students" all the time. So I accuse her of being a Tory - prompting more shouting :lol:
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    ---missing point but --- Premier League alone accounts for 0.5% of UK total tax take.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    My mum keeps going on about Indian "students" all the time. So I accuse her of being a Tory - prompting more shouting :lol:
    Some of my Indian heritage colleagues tell me that the predicted jokes have begun to come true.

    While they were previously praised for getting into Finance IT, they are now being asked when they are going into politics.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    My irony generator is poor verging on terrible. Mea maxima culpa.

    It is a genuine question, I'm interested in what you're saying but puzzled.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    Richardr said:

    algarkirk said:

    Re the article, in January Peter Kellner opined that Labour need a 10 point lead to get a majority with tactical voting, and a 13 point lead on UNS.

    here it is:

    https://kellnerpolitics.com/2023/01/27/801/

    So, if correct, Michael Smithson's view is if anything understated.
    A useful exercise is to think, even incompletely, of this: if Labour need to hold all their seats and win 125 extra to obtain a majority of 1, which are the 125 seats they will win? And which is the 125th most difficult of those they will win. And do you still think they will?

    If the SNP do well, and Labour miss some targets, they may need to get down to seats Rugby, Rochford, Banbury (155th place) to win a majority. Don't bet the farm.

    Anyway, Lab needing LD support is the best result available!

    One of the issues as you touch on is Scotland. As Kelner's states, a 13% lead for Labour would give it just three seats in Scotland on Universal National Swing. Whether that is realistic depends on the SNP vote, something that isn't really subject to the same swing factors as elsewhere.
    Yes. I think looking at the balance of likelihoods right now the Scottish debacle helps Labour more than straight UNS would. This could of course change.

    However the uphill task for Labour to get a majority is still improbable. Tactical voting will help of course, but may also help the LDs enough to help them into a supporting role. And there will be a few seats which Labour should win but the LDs manage to stop them by accidentally coming a good third.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    There's actually quite a lot of research out there on exactlly this. What there isn't, is a single cohesive data set.

    Which is what we need, for so many, many things.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,934
    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Good to see presidential candidates picking ideas from the fascist playbook
    the rejection of modernism (page 14)
    subjecting opposing ideologies to violence (page 88)

    And what's this "war room" shit about? Why not just call it a bunker, you dead-eyed psycho?
    War room seems to be American for campaign headquarters, with a hint of below-radar edginess. The film The War Room about the Clinton campaign is said to have inspired a young Dominic Cummings in his quest for greatness. The similarly-titled War Room is a more recent film about the power of prayer and it is possible DeSantis is hoping to lure in religiously-minded voters.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door when I can earn the same money stacking shelves at tesco's. I know I would quit like a shot. I wouldn't stop programming it would just become a hobby working on projects that interest me without having to put up with the stress of dealing corporate idiots.

    I suspect many would do the same
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door when I can earn the same money stacking shelves at tesco's. I know I would quit like a shot. I wouldn't stop programming it would just become a hobby working on projects that interest me without having to put up with the stress of dealing corporate idiots.

    I suspect many would do the same
    You mean that part of a Utopian ideology turns out to be bollocks in the real world?

    I'll get my coat. It's the one with Plato's Republic in the pocket.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    edited May 2023
    Mr. Royale, one of the most intriguing aspects of the Diadochi era is that almost any one of them could've founded a successful dynasty. It was bad luck for so many of them to be around when there were so many capable and intelligent leaders.

    Likewise, Hannibal had atrocious luck. A few centuries later, Rome would've capitulated. A few centuries earlier, Rome would've been too weak to fight. But he encountered it at the zenith of its patriotic fervour, and militarily on the ascendant too.

    Edited extra bit: Machiavelli makes a similar note regarding leaders requiring opportunity, such as Theseus and uniting the scattered Athenians.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    How many university places there are does not need to be a left v right issue. They are part, and only a part, of the vocation/training/education/personal development provision.

    The leftish part of me wants to divert large amounts of energy and funding to more locally based FE/apprenticeships and greater opportunities for non academic post 16s.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,934

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    My mum keeps going on about Indian "students" all the time. So I accuse her of being a Tory - prompting more shouting :lol:
    As long as you don't chuck orange paint on her prize-winning crysanths.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    There's actually quite a lot of research out there on exactlly this. What there isn't, is a single cohesive data set.

    Which is what we need, for so many, many things.
    Being cynical as I usually am I suspect the no easily accessed cohesive data set is deliberate because they would find a fair number of degrees that are not worth the paper they are written on let alone 50k debt
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    Hmmm, ok. I guess I don't think of compression of wage differences as a socialist idea. Or, at least, it's an idea that transcends socialism. We used to have lower differentials without being a socialist country, and there are sound reasons within the context of capitalism to want something closer to equality than we currently have.
    I guess the question I still have is this: can a socialist still accept some level of wage differential? I think the answer is yes. Perhaps the point was only that the degree of difference would be too large to be acceptable to many socialists, but that's something I'll leave to socialists to decide.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    My irony generator is poor verging on terrible. Mea maxima culpa.

    It is a genuine question, I'm interested in what you're saying but puzzled.
    Militant unions can be quite aggressive in asserting an interest of their members while ignoring their fact that their gains can mean in relative terms losses to others who are equally deserving and already much poorer. (Train drivers??)

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    Mr. Royale, one of the most intriguing aspects of the Diadochi era is that almost any one of them could've founded a successful dynasty. It was bad luck for so many of them to be around when there were so many capable and intelligent leaders.

    Likewise, Hannibal had atrocious luck. A few centuries later, Rome would've capitulated. A few centuries earlier, Rome would've been too weak to fight. But he encountered it at the zenith of its patriotic fervour, and militarily on the ascendant too.

    Edited extra bit: Machiavelli makes a similar note regarding leaders requiring opportunity, such as Theseus and uniting the scattered Athenians.

    I think Daniel Kahneman makes interesting points in Thinking, Fast and Slow too.

    Most CEOs think the success of companies is down to them, and failures totally beyond their control.

    In reality, much of that is timing too - they are just sailing ships on a stormy sea.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door when I can earn the same money stacking shelves at tesco's. I know I would quit like a shot. I wouldn't stop programming it would just become a hobby working on projects that interest me without having to put up with the stress of dealing corporate idiots.

    I suspect many would do the same
    @dixiedean 's TAs being a real life example.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    Hmmm, ok. I guess I don't think of compression of wage differences as a socialist idea. Or, at least, it's an idea that transcends socialism. We used to have lower differentials without being a socialist country, and there are sound reasons within the context of capitalism to want something closer to equality than we currently have.
    I guess the question I still have is this: can a socialist still accept some level of wage differential? I think the answer is yes. Perhaps the point was only that the degree of difference would be too large to be acceptable to many socialists, but that's something I'll leave to socialists to decide.
    Define socialist. It's a broad church. Though there are some who spend their time going "No True Socialist..."
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458
    algarkirk said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    How many university places there are does not need to be a left v right issue. They are part, and only a part, of the vocation/training/education/personal development provision.

    The leftish part of me wants to divert large amounts of energy and funding to more locally based FE/apprenticeships and greater opportunities for non academic post 16s.

    Far too much of our learning is focused on 16-21 and academic subjects. Far too little on health, fitness, food, relationships and picking up new skills and knowledge throughout our life time.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    My irony generator is poor verging on terrible. Mea maxima culpa.

    It is a genuine question, I'm interested in what you're saying but puzzled.
    Militant unions can be quite aggressive in asserting an interest of their members while ignoring their fact that their gains can mean in relative terms losses to others who are equally deserving and already much poorer. (Train drivers??)

    Ok, that's true.
    But I guess some unions aren't socialist at all, and a lot of what unions are about isn't really about socialism.
    I'm in a union (one that is politically unaffiliated, I couldn't bear to support Labour, even indirectly) and I really never hear anything from them about political ideology. It's all about pay and conditions of their members.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door when I can earn the same money stacking shelves at tesco's. I know I would quit like a shot. I wouldn't stop programming it would just become a hobby working on projects that interest me without having to put up with the stress of dealing corporate idiots.

    I suspect many would do the same
    @dixiedean 's TAs being a real life example.
    I am sure there are many many roles that would find it harder to get people in. Even for example doctors and surgeons. While many no doubt go into medecine for altruistic reasons I am pretty sure the pay when you get to senior levels drives a significant percentage as well
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    Hmmm, ok. I guess I don't think of compression of wage differences as a socialist idea. Or, at least, it's an idea that transcends socialism. We used to have lower differentials without being a socialist country, and there are sound reasons within the context of capitalism to want something closer to equality than we currently have.
    I guess the question I still have is this: can a socialist still accept some level of wage differential? I think the answer is yes. Perhaps the point was only that the degree of difference would be too large to be acceptable to many socialists, but that's something I'll leave to socialists to decide.
    Define socialist. It's a broad church. Though there are some who spend their time going "No True Socialist..."
    And where on earth do the revolutionary communists now at the heart of the Tory party fit in?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    Hmmm, ok. I guess I don't think of compression of wage differences as a socialist idea. Or, at least, it's an idea that transcends socialism. We used to have lower differentials without being a socialist country, and there are sound reasons within the context of capitalism to want something closer to equality than we currently have.
    I guess the question I still have is this: can a socialist still accept some level of wage differential? I think the answer is yes. Perhaps the point was only that the degree of difference would be too large to be acceptable to many socialists, but that's something I'll leave to socialists to decide.
    Define socialist. It's a broad church. Though there are some who spend their time going "No True Socialist..."
    Yes, that's the thorny question. For me "socialism" is about common ownership, so things like making wages a bit more equal than they are now don't fit into that camp.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    edited May 2023
    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    My irony generator is poor verging on terrible. Mea maxima culpa.

    It is a genuine question, I'm interested in what you're saying but puzzled.
    Militant unions can be quite aggressive in asserting an interest of their members while ignoring their fact that their gains can mean in relative terms losses to others who are equally deserving and already much poorer. (Train drivers??)

    One of the unsung successes in modern industrial relations was the introduction of independent arbitration based deals between companies and unions. This replaced the annual bun fights over pay and conditions with a much more rational structure. And by massively reducing the "them vs us" mentality (on both sides), made companies better places to work as well.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Why do you bang on about "the right" so much when in economic terms you are part of it?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,934
    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    Why waste money on "Jane Austen studies"? English was the media studies of its day. For the sake of the country, employers need to become less snooty about where they recruit from, like when Google discovered its best programmers did not come from Ivy League colleges.

    I'm in favour of education for all. Cynics can have a field day allocating courses to trade schools or finishing schools but the rich and powerful often went to the latter.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,572
    algarkirk said:

    Re the article, in January Peter Kellner opined that Labour need a 10 point lead to get a majority with tactical voting, and a 13 point lead on UNS.

    here it is:

    https://kellnerpolitics.com/2023/01/27/801/

    So, if correct, Michael Smithson's view is if anything understated.
    A useful exercise is to think, even incompletely, of this: if Labour need to hold all their seats and win 125 extra to obtain a majority of 1, which are the 125 seats they will win? And which is the 125th most difficult of those they will win. And do you still think they will?

    If the SNP do well, and Labour miss some targets, they may need to get down to seats Rugby, Rochford, Banbury (155th place) to win a majority. Don't bet the farm.

    Anyway, Lab needing LD support is the best result available!

    On the other hand, if I set a user defined poll on the new boundaries in Electoral Calculus, with an overall Lab lead of 4% (Lab on 40%), the SNP on 36% with a lead of 4% over Labour in Scotland, and a modest amount of tactical voting between Lab/LD/Green (25%), Labour end up with 325 which is exactly 50% of the seats in parliament.

    The Electoral Calculus model isn't based on UNS and, unlike Kellner, my parameters take account of the SNP's difficulties in Scotland.

    The 7% required lead that Mike cites certainly doesn't seem implausibly low to me.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,934
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door when I can earn the same money stacking shelves at tesco's. I know I would quit like a shot. I wouldn't stop programming it would just become a hobby working on projects that interest me without having to put up with the stress of dealing corporate idiots.

    I suspect many would do the same
    It is an interesting thought experiment though. Would you stack shelves as a hobby, for instance? Perhaps programming has intrinsic benefits as well as a higher salary.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    My mum keeps going on about Indian "students" all the time. So I accuse her of being a Tory - prompting more shouting :lol:
    As long as you don't chuck orange paint on her prize-winning crysanths.
    Bright orange calendulas this year!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    Mr. Royale, one of the most intriguing aspects of the Diadochi era is that almost any one of them could've founded a successful dynasty. It was bad luck for so many of them to be around when there were so many capable and intelligent leaders.

    Likewise, Hannibal had atrocious luck. A few centuries later, Rome would've capitulated. A few centuries earlier, Rome would've been too weak to fight. But he encountered it at the zenith of its patriotic fervour, and militarily on the ascendant too.

    Edited extra bit: Machiavelli makes a similar note regarding leaders requiring opportunity, such as Theseus and uniting the scattered Athenians.

    Randomness, luck, chance and opportunity steer all things. Every single important bit of my (lucky) life at this moment would have been different - radically so, but for being placed in a particular language subject set, against my will, at school at age 12.

    Most lives when you track back depend on utterly trivial forks in the road.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    Farooq said:

    nico679 said:

    Asylum backlog now upto 172,000. So more lies from Braverman !

    Welcome to the Asylum UK hotline. Your call is important to us. Currently we are dealing with a high volume of calls. You are number ONE SEVEN ONE NINE NINE SIX in the queue.
    Please hold the line. The call handler will be with you as soon as possible.
    [Rod Stewart Sailing plays]
    Or Hotel California plays.
    This is where I am just sharper than you Farooq. Though you do give it a damn good try, I must admit.
    ICYMI:

    "You won't do well to silence me
    With your words or wagging tongue"
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited May 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT

    On my LinkedIn feed this morning, an email from the recruitment consultants inviting applications to become members of the newly announced London Policing Board.

    You have to fill in a form and send in a 2 minute video. Well that will be easy: here you go 11 articles on what is wrong with the police and what needs to be done. Read those. Call me when you've read them.

    Go on. You know you want to…

    (And, from your writings here and what we know of you, would have an awful lot to contribute to the Board)
    I might but I can pretty much guarantee that I will not be chosen.
    AlistairM said:

    Just Stop Oil protesters have now targeted another key oil-consuming demographic the Chelsea Flower Show. Apparently the only good garden is one that grows food.

    https://www.gbnews.com/just-stop-oil-chelsea-flower-show-orange-paint

    Plough your gardens everyone and plant food or else Just Stop Oil will come and throw paint at you.

    Pissing off middle aged female gardeners, ones who know how to use sharp, potentially lethal gardening tools ..... brave, very brave. Planting flowers is essential for wildlife, birds, bees and insects. These ignorant morons should have paint poured over them, be chained to some brambles and nettles and left in the sun all day.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,225

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door when I can earn the same money stacking shelves at tesco's. I know I would quit like a shot. I wouldn't stop programming it would just become a hobby working on projects that interest me without having to put up with the stress of dealing corporate idiots.

    I suspect many would do the same
    It is an interesting thought experiment though. Would you stack shelves as a hobby, for instance? Perhaps programming has intrinsic benefits as well as a higher salary.
    Well no, I wouldn't stack shelves as a hoby, although I would prefer it to fishing.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,934
    algarkirk said:

    Mr. Royale, one of the most intriguing aspects of the Diadochi era is that almost any one of them could've founded a successful dynasty. It was bad luck for so many of them to be around when there were so many capable and intelligent leaders.

    Likewise, Hannibal had atrocious luck. A few centuries later, Rome would've capitulated. A few centuries earlier, Rome would've been too weak to fight. But he encountered it at the zenith of its patriotic fervour, and militarily on the ascendant too.

    Edited extra bit: Machiavelli makes a similar note regarding leaders requiring opportunity, such as Theseus and uniting the scattered Athenians.

    Randomness, luck, chance and opportunity steer all things. Every single important bit of my (lucky) life at this moment would have been different - radically so, but for being placed in a particular language subject set, against my will, at school at age 12.

    Most lives when you track back depend on utterly trivial forks in the road.
    Most fundamentally, where we were born. This is the greatest nation on earth (T Blair). Some of us got the double up with rich and well-connected parents.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door when I can earn the same money stacking shelves at tesco's. I know I would quit like a shot. I wouldn't stop programming it would just become a hobby working on projects that interest me without having to put up with the stress of dealing corporate idiots.

    I suspect many would do the same
    It is an interesting thought experiment though. Would you stack shelves as a hobby, for instance? Perhaps programming has intrinsic benefits as well as a higher salary.
    No I wouldn't stack shelves for a hobby

    However you also need to distinguish between writing software for a project you enjoy where you have total control which is fun and writing some dreary corporate app because you need money to live where you have no control and have to write the app as asked for even when you can see what has been asked for makes no sense which is soul destroying
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    I thought it had been well established that very few students stay on in the country illegally: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/24/pressure-grows-for-immigration-targets-to-exclude-foreign-students

    Fees income from foreign students is an important part of the economy. It’s much bigger than fishing. Remember how much the fishing industry was a talking point during Brexit? It’s much less than the educating foreign students industry.
    In which case sounds like a bit of a red herring?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Good to see presidential candidates picking ideas from the fascist playbook
    the rejection of modernism (page 14)
    subjecting opposing ideologies to violence (page 88)

    And what's this "war room" shit about? Why not just call it a bunker, you dead-eyed psycho?
    War room seems to be American for campaign headquarters, with a hint of below-radar edginess. The film The War Room about the Clinton campaign is said to have inspired a young Dominic Cummings in his quest for greatness. The similarly-titled War Room is a more recent film about the power of prayer and it is possible DeSantis is hoping to lure in religiously-minded voters.
    This GOP primary battle is certainly turning me religious. Every night before I go to bed I kneel and pray to the almighty that they find somebody other than Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    Why waste money on "Jane Austen studies"? English was the media studies of its day. For the sake of the country, employers need to become less snooty about where they recruit from, like when Google discovered its best programmers did not come from Ivy League colleges.

    I'm in favour of education for all. Cynics can have a field day allocating courses to trade schools or finishing schools but the rich and powerful often went to the latter.
    I didn't say people couldn't waste money on it. If they want to do the course for intellectual curiousity reasons fine. I just said they should have the information up front in case they are making a choice of course for financial/employment rewards.

    Giving people information so they can make an informed decision is not a bad thing
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257
    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    These are largely available, are they not?
    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/graduate-outcomes-by-degree-subject-and-university
    (report and the additional tables)

    Not sure that the differentials compared to non-grads are included (but anyone going to university should be capable of working that out from published figures) and not 30 years out, but then I'm not sure that information on long term outcomes for someone doing a course 30 years ago is that relevant. 30 years ago is in the middle of the 90s mass expansion so things could be quite different now in many places.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    algarkirk said:

    Mr. Royale, one of the most intriguing aspects of the Diadochi era is that almost any one of them could've founded a successful dynasty. It was bad luck for so many of them to be around when there were so many capable and intelligent leaders.

    Likewise, Hannibal had atrocious luck. A few centuries later, Rome would've capitulated. A few centuries earlier, Rome would've been too weak to fight. But he encountered it at the zenith of its patriotic fervour, and militarily on the ascendant too.

    Edited extra bit: Machiavelli makes a similar note regarding leaders requiring opportunity, such as Theseus and uniting the scattered Athenians.

    Randomness, luck, chance and opportunity steer all things. Every single important bit of my (lucky) life at this moment would have been different - radically so, but for being placed in a particular language subject set, against my will, at school at age 12.

    Most lives when you track back depend on utterly trivial forks in the road.
    And the single most influential chance factor of all is birth circumstances - where and to whom you are born.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited May 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    Why waste money on "Jane Austen studies"? English was the media studies of its day. For the sake of the country, employers need to become less snooty about where they recruit from, like when Google discovered its best programmers did not come from Ivy League colleges.

    I'm in favour of education for all. Cynics can have a field day allocating courses to trade schools or finishing schools but the rich and powerful often went to the latter.
    I didn't say people couldn't waste money on it. If they want to do the course for intellectual curiousity reasons fine. I just said they should have the information up front in case they are making a choice of course for financial/employment rewards.

    Giving people information so they can make an informed decision is not a bad thing
    The easiest way to achieve what you’re looking for, is for the government to stop underwriting the loans.

    If a bank had to advance the loan, and agree the fees with the institution and the student, banks would very quickly have a massive database of the value of each course.

    The Mickey Mouse courses would have to dramatically cut their fees, if they wanted to attract anyone who needed a loan.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,225
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Mr. Royale, one of the most intriguing aspects of the Diadochi era is that almost any one of them could've founded a successful dynasty. It was bad luck for so many of them to be around when there were so many capable and intelligent leaders.

    Likewise, Hannibal had atrocious luck. A few centuries later, Rome would've capitulated. A few centuries earlier, Rome would've been too weak to fight. But he encountered it at the zenith of its patriotic fervour, and militarily on the ascendant too.

    Edited extra bit: Machiavelli makes a similar note regarding leaders requiring opportunity, such as Theseus and uniting the scattered Athenians.

    Randomness, luck, chance and opportunity steer all things. Every single important bit of my (lucky) life at this moment would have been different - radically so, but for being placed in a particular language subject set, against my will, at school at age 12.

    Most lives when you track back depend on utterly trivial forks in the road.
    And the single most influential chance factor of all is birth circumstances - where and to whom you are born.
    It isn't just a matter of material comfort and security, although that helps. The best luck you can have is to be born into a happy family.

    And on that philosophical note I shall go and return to mine. Laters.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT

    On my LinkedIn feed this morning, an email from the recruitment consultants inviting applications to become members of the newly announced London Policing Board.

    You have to fill in a form and send in a 2 minute video. Well that will be easy: here you go 11 articles on what is wrong with the police and what needs to be done. Read those. Call me when you've read them.

    Go on. You know you want to…

    (And, from your writings here and what we know of you, would have an awful lot to contribute to the Board)
    I might but I can pretty much guarantee that I will not be chosen.
    AlistairM said:

    Just Stop Oil protesters have now targeted another key oil-consuming demographic the Chelsea Flower Show. Apparently the only good garden is one that grows food.

    https://www.gbnews.com/just-stop-oil-chelsea-flower-show-orange-paint

    Plough your gardens everyone and plant food or else Just Stop Oil will come and throw paint at you.

    Pissing off middle aged female gardeners, ones who know how to use sharp, potentially lethal gardening tools ..... brave, very brave. Planting flowers is essential for wildlife, birds, bees and insects. These ignorant morons should have paint poured over them, be chained to some brambles and nettles and left in the sun all day.
    Genuinely interested to know what footwear these pillocks wear:

    1. leather - the bastards

    2. oil-derived plastics - the hypocritical bastards

    3. sewn-together walnut husks.....
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Farooq said:



    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.

    Hmmm, ok. I guess I don't think of compression of wage differences as a socialist idea. Or, at least, it's an idea that transcends socialism. We used to have lower differentials without being a socialist country, and there are sound reasons within the context of capitalism to want something closer to equality than we currently have.
    I guess the question I still have is this: can a socialist still accept some level of wage differential? I think the answer is yes. Perhaps the point was only that the degree of difference would be too large to be acceptable to many socialists, but that's something I'll leave to socialists to decide.
    Marx suggested that the distinction was between socialism="From each according to ability, to each according to work" - and communism - "...to each according to need". So if you're disabled and unable to work, you might need a higher income than someone healthy and working hard. (Trying to follow that philosophy, I earn well, live frugally and give a lot away - if and when I fall ill, I'll feel unapologetic at doing less and claiming benefits.)

    Marx has been dead for a long time and we've seen versions of communism that few would argue came anywhere near the theoretical definition. But for folk like me who liked the original concept, instinctively we like low differentials and high benefits for people in difficulty (not least refugees and people in poor countries). Instinctive attitudes do dictate a lot of political stances, not always perfectly logically.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,171
    https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2021/09/09/international-students-are-worth-28-8-billion-to-the-uk/ “International students are worth £28.8 billion to the UK”

    This is a sector where the UK is internationally competitive. It does wonders for our balance of payments. It would be madness to cut off our nose to spite our face by cutting down international student numbers.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458
    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Good to see presidential candidates picking ideas from the fascist playbook
    the rejection of modernism (page 14)
    subjecting opposing ideologies to violence (page 88)

    And what's this "war room" shit about? Why not just call it a bunker, you dead-eyed psycho?
    War room seems to be American for campaign headquarters, with a hint of below-radar edginess. The film The War Room about the Clinton campaign is said to have inspired a young Dominic Cummings in his quest for greatness. The similarly-titled War Room is a more recent film about the power of prayer and it is possible DeSantis is hoping to lure in religiously-minded voters.
    This GOP primary battle is certainly turning me religious. Every night before I go to bed I kneel and pray to the almighty that they find somebody other than Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis.
    Praying for Tuckers luck?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Selebian said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    These are largely available, are they not?
    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/graduate-outcomes-by-degree-subject-and-university
    (report and the additional tables)

    Not sure that the differentials compared to non-grads are included (but anyone going to university should be capable of working that out from published figures) and not 30 years out, but then I'm not sure that information on long term outcomes for someone doing a course 30 years ago is that relevant. 30 years ago is in the middle of the 90s mass expansion so things could be quite different now in many places.
    Thanks for that. So next question is do careers advisers in schools point that out to students when deciding on university courses?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    algarkirk said:

    Mr. Royale, one of the most intriguing aspects of the Diadochi era is that almost any one of them could've founded a successful dynasty. It was bad luck for so many of them to be around when there were so many capable and intelligent leaders.

    Likewise, Hannibal had atrocious luck. A few centuries later, Rome would've capitulated. A few centuries earlier, Rome would've been too weak to fight. But he encountered it at the zenith of its patriotic fervour, and militarily on the ascendant too.

    Edited extra bit: Machiavelli makes a similar note regarding leaders requiring opportunity, such as Theseus and uniting the scattered Athenians.

    Randomness, luck, chance and opportunity steer all things. Every single important bit of my (lucky) life at this moment would have been different - radically so, but for being placed in a particular language subject set, against my will, at school at age 12.

    Most lives when you track back depend on utterly trivial forks in the road.
    Gates. You go thru a succession of gates. When you go thru one, you are changed. You can go thru any gate you can afford, but you can't go back. Some gates won't let you thru if you've gone thru other gates. You have 60-70 years to work out the best route. Good luck...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,171
    Pagan2 said:

    Selebian said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    These are largely available, are they not?
    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/graduate-outcomes-by-degree-subject-and-university
    (report and the additional tables)

    Not sure that the differentials compared to non-grads are included (but anyone going to university should be capable of working that out from published figures) and not 30 years out, but then I'm not sure that information on long term outcomes for someone doing a course 30 years ago is that relevant. 30 years ago is in the middle of the 90s mass expansion so things could be quite different now in many places.
    Thanks for that. So next question is do careers advisers in schools point that out to students when deciding on university courses?
    Some do, some don’t. Good careers advice is one of those things that suffers when school budgets are cut to the bone and you’re struggling to employ teachers for the core curriculum.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door when I can earn the same money stacking shelves at tesco's. I know I would quit like a shot. I wouldn't stop programming it would just become a hobby working on projects that interest me without having to put up with the stress of dealing corporate idiots.

    I suspect many would do the same
    It is an interesting thought experiment though. Would you stack shelves as a hobby, for instance? Perhaps programming has intrinsic benefits as well as a higher salary.
    No I wouldn't stack shelves for a hobby

    However you also need to distinguish between writing software for a project you enjoy where you have total control which is fun and writing some dreary corporate app because you need money to live where you have no control and have to write the app as asked for even when you can see what has been asked for makes no sense which is soul destroying
    Some people do jigsaws for fun. Not a huge difference between the two. The main difference I can think of is if you've drawn the short straw and you're loading items that are individually heavy but quite numerous, e.g. 2l bottles in the drinks aisle, which can knacker your back if you aren't careful.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,934
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    Why waste money on "Jane Austen studies"? English was the media studies of its day. For the sake of the country, employers need to become less snooty about where they recruit from, like when Google discovered its best programmers did not come from Ivy League colleges.

    I'm in favour of education for all. Cynics can have a field day allocating courses to trade schools or finishing schools but the rich and powerful often went to the latter.
    I didn't say people couldn't waste money on it. If they want to do the course for intellectual curiousity reasons fine. I just said they should have the information up front in case they are making a choice of course for financial/employment rewards.

    Giving people information so they can make an informed decision is not a bad thing
    We should also recognise that the earning power of graduates often depends less on the course and more on networking and reputation. That is bad for the country. And even if we grant that Oxford PPE is a vocational course for Prime Ministers like David Cameron, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak. Theresa May read geography, and Boris classics.

    Hmm. Have I just stumbled across a great betting system? Every other PM read PPE at Oxford. Admittedly it is a small sample.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,934

    https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2021/09/09/international-students-are-worth-28-8-billion-to-the-uk/ “International students are worth £28.8 billion to the UK”

    This is a sector where the UK is internationally competitive. It does wonders for our balance of payments. It would be madness to cut off our nose to spite our face by cutting down international student numbers.

    And yet the Home Office under successive Home Secretaries is determined to count students as immigrants.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT

    On my LinkedIn feed this morning, an email from the recruitment consultants inviting applications to become members of the newly announced London Policing Board.

    You have to fill in a form and send in a 2 minute video. Well that will be easy: here you go 11 articles on what is wrong with the police and what needs to be done. Read those. Call me when you've read them.

    Go on. You know you want to…

    (And, from your writings here and what we know of you, would have an awful lot to contribute to the Board)
    I might but I can pretty much guarantee that I will not be chosen.
    AlistairM said:

    Just Stop Oil protesters have now targeted another key oil-consuming demographic the Chelsea Flower Show. Apparently the only good garden is one that grows food.

    https://www.gbnews.com/just-stop-oil-chelsea-flower-show-orange-paint

    Plough your gardens everyone and plant food or else Just Stop Oil will come and throw paint at you.

    Pissing off middle aged female gardeners, ones who know how to use sharp, potentially lethal gardening tools ..... brave, very brave. Planting flowers is essential for wildlife, birds, bees and insects. These ignorant morons should have paint poured over them, be chained to some brambles and nettles and left in the sun all day.
    Genuinely interested to know what footwear these pillocks wear:

    1. leather - the bastards

    2. oil-derived plastics - the hypocritical bastards

    3. sewn-together walnut husks.....
    we_should_improve_society_somewhat_and_yet_you_participate_in_society_im_very_smart.jpg
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT

    On my LinkedIn feed this morning, an email from the recruitment consultants inviting applications to become members of the newly announced London Policing Board.

    You have to fill in a form and send in a 2 minute video. Well that will be easy: here you go 11 articles on what is wrong with the police and what needs to be done. Read those. Call me when you've read them.

    Go on. You know you want to…

    (And, from your writings here and what we know of you, would have an awful lot to contribute to the Board)
    I might but I can pretty much guarantee that I will not be chosen.
    AlistairM said:

    Just Stop Oil protesters have now targeted another key oil-consuming demographic the Chelsea Flower Show. Apparently the only good garden is one that grows food.

    https://www.gbnews.com/just-stop-oil-chelsea-flower-show-orange-paint

    Plough your gardens everyone and plant food or else Just Stop Oil will come and throw paint at you.

    Pissing off middle aged female gardeners, ones who know how to use sharp, potentially lethal gardening tools ..... brave, very brave. Planting flowers is essential for wildlife, birds, bees and insects. These ignorant morons should have paint poured over them, be chained to some brambles and nettles and left in the sun all day.
    Genuinely interested to know what footwear these pillocks wear:

    1. leather - the bastards

    2. oil-derived plastics - the hypocritical bastards

    3. sewn-together walnut husks.....
    4. The same disposable cheap synthetic crap from China, shipped half way around the world after the slaves made it, that most people seem to be wearing these days.

    My wife has something of a fetish for cotton clothing, and I get this diatribe from her every time we go shopping!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Farooq said:

    nico679 said:

    Asylum backlog now upto 172,000. So more lies from Braverman !

    Welcome to the Asylum UK hotline. Your call is important to us. Currently we are dealing with a high volume of calls. You are number ONE SEVEN ONE NINE NINE SIX in the queue.
    Please hold the line. The call handler will be with you as soon as possible.
    [Rod Stewart Sailing plays]
    Or Hotel California plays.
    This is where I am just sharper than you Farooq. Though you do give it a damn good try, I must admit.
    ICYMI:

    "You won't do well to silence me
    With your words or wagging tongue"
    Not even more shit eighties synth music 🫣 what’s wrong with you PB people?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    edited May 2023

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    Why waste money on "Jane Austen studies"? English was the media studies of its day. For the sake of the country, employers need to become less snooty about where they recruit from, like when Google discovered its best programmers did not come from Ivy League colleges.

    I'm in favour of education for all. Cynics can have a field day allocating courses to trade schools or finishing schools but the rich and powerful often went to the latter.
    Having to do all those trendy things like learn Anglo Saxon, read Beowulf, The Battle of Maldon and the Parlement of Foules never felt quite to have the robust rigour of a proper old fashioned media studies course. But distance lends enchantment perhaps.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited May 2023

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Mr. Royale, one of the most intriguing aspects of the Diadochi era is that almost any one of them could've founded a successful dynasty. It was bad luck for so many of them to be around when there were so many capable and intelligent leaders.

    Likewise, Hannibal had atrocious luck. A few centuries later, Rome would've capitulated. A few centuries earlier, Rome would've been too weak to fight. But he encountered it at the zenith of its patriotic fervour, and militarily on the ascendant too.

    Edited extra bit: Machiavelli makes a similar note regarding leaders requiring opportunity, such as Theseus and uniting the scattered Athenians.

    Randomness, luck, chance and opportunity steer all things. Every single important bit of my (lucky) life at this moment would have been different - radically so, but for being placed in a particular language subject set, against my will, at school at age 12.

    Most lives when you track back depend on utterly trivial forks in the road.
    And the single most influential chance factor of all is birth circumstances - where and to whom you are born.
    It isn't just a matter of material comfort and security, although that helps. The best luck you can have is to be born into a happy family.

    And on that philosophical note I shall go and return to mine. Laters.
    Very true. Not everything is about money. Eg I got no leg ups from money or connections, but my comp school was good and my parents were loving and supportive. Plus I got myself born in a free and rich country (although a poor part of it) and the government paid me to go to uni. So in the grand scheme of things my luck score is easily a positive relative to most people on the planet - and probably relative to most people in the UK.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Given US portion sizes perhaps there should be a ban on serving the whole enchilada and it should be split into thirds for breakfast, lunch and dinner?
    Not sure if you're joking, but "the whole enchilada" is a common phrase in the US like "the whole shooting match" or "the whole kit and caboodle" here.
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole shooting match with respect to public health in this country.”

    Still sounds stupid.

    (And everyone knows what 'the whole enchilada' means.)
    "Major overhaul of public health" I suppose he means. He's got a lot of padding in there.
    I think it's more of a dog whistle to the antivaxxers. Hence the extended periphrasis.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Morning all! Lets all enjoy the spectacle of today's *legal* migration numbers and the mouth-foaming from a right wing. "We're not racists" they insist, they just want all foreigners to go away. Which isn't racism, its jingoism, bigotry, false patriotism where the Empire still dominates the world, all that bollocks.

    Starmer's attack on this yesterday was clever, because it calls out the hypocrisy. What may be less clever is that it doesn't face into the reality that much of the WWC red wall vote is as I describe - jingoist and bigoted. They don't want anyone who isn't them living there, never mind people who speak funny.

    You really didn’t need to repeat that bile.

    Many of us on the centre-right are proud of what the UK has done for Ukraine and Hong Kong over the past year, and believe that a skills-based system is better than a free-for-all based on nationality, that had the effect of driving down wages for the very poorest in society.
    The very poorest in society are either on minimum wage or more likely not working. Its the low end of the squeezed middle that could be said to have benefitted from recent wage inflation.
    Many were working jobs like hospitality which were nailed down hard to whatever minimum wage was, now many of those people for the first time are finding that there wages have risen above minimum wage. Are there still those on min wage yes sure there is. That however does not mean some workers have seen their wages rise above minimum
    It's worth noting that for people prepared to work a lot of hours/have multiple jobs the minimum wage yields modestly decent cash in comparative terms.

    £10.42x42hoursx50weeks is £21882. While (eg) nurses can be paid £100k (not many), they can also be paid £22-25k (probably more than are paid £100k).

    The gap between min wage and this is not great.

    I wonder whether this is part of what is feeding the massive range of strike/industrial action. The minimum wage is great; but the more radical the union, the keener they are on unsocialist differentials.

    Interesting post but I don't think I understand what you mean by "unsocialist differentials". Can you clarify?
    In a lot of socialist utopian concepts and literature, wage differentials are considered to be a part of the class struggle. A world where everyone gets paid the same is the ideal.
    And is ridiculous for anyone giving it a moments thought. Why for example would I so my job as a software engineer which is often stressful especially coming up to a release and often requires working long hours to get something out the door when I can earn the same money stacking shelves at tesco's. I know I would quit like a shot. I wouldn't stop programming it would just become a hobby working on projects that interest me without having to put up with the stress of dealing corporate idiots.

    I suspect many would do the same
    It is an interesting thought experiment though. Would you stack shelves as a hobby, for instance? Perhaps programming has intrinsic benefits as well as a higher salary.
    No I wouldn't stack shelves for a hobby

    However you also need to distinguish between writing software for a project you enjoy where you have total control which is fun and writing some dreary corporate app because you need money to live where you have no control and have to write the app as asked for even when you can see what has been asked for makes no sense which is soul destroying
    Some people do jigsaws for fun. Not a huge difference between the two. The main difference I can think of is if you've drawn the short straw and you're loading items that are individually heavy but quite numerous, e.g. 2l bottles in the drinks aisle, which can knacker your back if you aren't careful.
    One of the great insights of Mark Twain's masterpiece 'Tom Sawyer' (probably cancelled by now for obvious reasons) is that people will do for fun and voluntarily many things which they would hate to do as paid employment or under compulsion. The way Tom Sawyer discovers this is a gem of children's writing.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Given US portion sizes perhaps there should be a ban on serving the whole enchilada and it should be split into thirds for breakfast, lunch and dinner?
    Not sure if you're joking, but "the whole enchilada" is a common phrase in the US like "the whole shooting match" or "the whole kit and caboodle" here.
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole shooting match with respect to public health in this country.”

    Still sounds stupid.

    (And everyone knows what 'the whole enchilada' means.)
    "Major overhaul of public health" I suppose he means. He's got a lot of padding in there.
    I think it's more of a dog whistle to the antivaxxers. Hence the extended periphrasis.
    Do you know, I genuinely thought for a moment he intended to *improve* healthcare... 😀
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Good to see presidential candidates picking ideas from the fascist playbook
    the rejection of modernism (page 14)
    subjecting opposing ideologies to violence (page 88)

    And what's this "war room" shit about? Why not just call it a bunker, you dead-eyed psycho?
    War room seems to be American for campaign headquarters, with a hint of below-radar edginess. The film The War Room about the Clinton campaign is said to have inspired a young Dominic Cummings in his quest for greatness. The similarly-titled War Room is a more recent film about the power of prayer and it is possible DeSantis is hoping to lure in religiously-minded voters.
    Where else would you base your war on woke ?
    (Autocorrect attempted to change that to 'war on work'; it knows me too well.)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:



    Randomness, luck, chance and opportunity steer all things. Every single important bit of my (lucky) life at this moment would have been different - radically so, but for being placed in a particular language subject set, against my will, at school at age 12.

    Most lives when you track back depend on utterly trivial forks in the road.

    And the single most influential chance factor of all is birth circumstances - where and to whom you are born.
    Yes, exactly. That's the philosophical underpinning of the left-wing attitudes that we were discussing earlier. If life is significantly determined by luck, it makes sense for the lucky ones to help the unlucky ones - not least as one can flip from one to the other inside one's lifespan. Most of us will end up dependent on others.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Farooq said:

    nico679 said:

    Asylum backlog now upto 172,000. So more lies from Braverman !

    Welcome to the Asylum UK hotline. Your call is important to us. Currently we are dealing with a high volume of calls. You are number ONE SEVEN ONE NINE NINE SIX in the queue.
    Please hold the line. The call handler will be with you as soon as possible.
    [Rod Stewart Sailing plays]
    Or Hotel California plays.
    This is where I am just sharper than you Farooq. Though you do give it a damn good try, I must admit.
    ICYMI:

    "You won't do well to silence me
    With your words or wagging tongue"
    Not even more shit eighties synth music 🫣 what’s wrong with you PB people?
    Screamo O’clock

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0USdLQZ-Clk&t=21s
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,934
    edited May 2023
    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    Why waste money on "Jane Austen studies"? English was the media studies of its day. For the sake of the country, employers need to become less snooty about where they recruit from, like when Google discovered its best programmers did not come from Ivy League colleges.

    I'm in favour of education for all. Cynics can have a field day allocating courses to trade schools or finishing schools but the rich and powerful often went to the latter.
    Having to do all those trendy things like learn Anglo Saxon, read Beowulf, The Battle of Maldon and the Parlement of Foules never felt quite to have the robust rigour of a proper old fashioned media studies course. But distance lends enchantment perhaps.

    If you look back to when English courses were introduced over a hundred years ago, the arguments were the same. Learning poems was for schoolchildren. Reading novels was a trivial pursuit; worse than that, a woman's hobby. Face it, an English degree is a posh version of Richard & Judy's book club. And how many English graduates go on to become poets or novelists?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Given US portion sizes perhaps there should be a ban on serving the whole enchilada and it should be split into thirds for breakfast, lunch and dinner?
    Not sure if you're joking, but "the whole enchilada" is a common phrase in the US like "the whole shooting match" or "the whole kit and caboodle" here.
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole shooting match with respect to public health in this country.”

    Still sounds stupid.

    (And everyone knows what 'the whole enchilada' means.)
    "Major overhaul of public health" I suppose he means. He's got a lot of padding in there.
    I think it's more of a dog whistle to the antivaxxers. Hence the extended periphrasis.
    Ah right. Yes, that figures. What a grim place the GOP is these days.

    Have you got your sense of smell back btw?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,588
    ...

    Farooq said:

    nico679 said:

    Asylum backlog now upto 172,000. So more lies from Braverman !

    Welcome to the Asylum UK hotline. Your call is important to us. Currently we are dealing with a high volume of calls. You are number ONE SEVEN ONE NINE NINE SIX in the queue.
    Please hold the line. The call handler will be with you as soon as possible.
    [Rod Stewart Sailing plays]
    Or Hotel California plays.
    This is where I am just sharper than you Farooq. Though you do give it a damn good try, I must admit.
    ICYMI:

    "You won't do well to silence me
    With your words or wagging tongue"
    Not even more shit eighties synth music 🫣 what’s wrong with you PB people?
    I went to school with Nick Rhodes of Duran Duran so I consider myself an expert. I can't stand Depeche Mode, or Orchestral Manoeuvres. The Human League or Howard Jones though...and let's not forget Giorgio Moroder.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Given US portion sizes perhaps there should be a ban on serving the whole enchilada and it should be split into thirds for breakfast, lunch and dinner?
    Not sure if you're joking, but "the whole enchilada" is a common phrase in the US like "the whole shooting match" or "the whole kit and caboodle" here.
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole shooting match with respect to public health in this country.”

    Still sounds stupid.

    (And everyone knows what 'the whole enchilada' means.)
    "Major overhaul of public health" I suppose he means. He's got a lot of padding in there.
    I think it's more of a dog whistle to the antivaxxers. Hence the extended periphrasis.
    Do you know, I genuinely thought for a moment he intended to *improve* healthcare... 😀
    LOL.
    https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article274237135.html
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    Farooq said:

    nico679 said:

    Asylum backlog now upto 172,000. So more lies from Braverman !

    Welcome to the Asylum UK hotline. Your call is important to us. Currently we are dealing with a high volume of calls. You are number ONE SEVEN ONE NINE NINE SIX in the queue.
    Please hold the line. The call handler will be with you as soon as possible.
    [Rod Stewart Sailing plays]
    Or Hotel California plays.
    This is where I am just sharper than you Farooq. Though you do give it a damn good try, I must admit.
    ICYMI:

    "You won't do well to silence me
    With your words or wagging tongue"
    Not even more shit eighties synth music 🫣 what’s wrong with you PB people?
    We can do seventies synth if you like. Kraftwerk, Donna Summer and Giorgio Moroder, Foxx, Eno, Numan, Oldfield... 😀
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited May 2023
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly John 14:6

    DESANTIS: "The woke mind virus is basically a form of cultural marxism.”

    “It's an attack on the truth — and because it’s a war on truth, I think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke.”

    https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1661525909034213376

    Is this bit about food regulation ?
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole enchilada with respect to public health in this country.”

    Given US portion sizes perhaps there should be a ban on serving the whole enchilada and it should be split into thirds for breakfast, lunch and dinner?
    Not sure if you're joking, but "the whole enchilada" is a common phrase in the US like "the whole shooting match" or "the whole kit and caboodle" here.
    “You need major, major overhaul of the whole shooting match with respect to public health in this country.”

    Still sounds stupid.

    (And everyone knows what 'the whole enchilada' means.)
    "Major overhaul of public health" I suppose he means. He's got a lot of padding in there.
    I think it's more of a dog whistle to the antivaxxers. Hence the extended periphrasis.
    Do you know, I genuinely thought for a moment he intended to *improve* healthcare... 😀
    When Americans talk about “healthcare” in a legislative sense, they almost certainly mean either vaccinations or abortions, depending on their political beliefs. Perhaps also sex-change operations.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    Farooq said:

    nico679 said:

    Asylum backlog now upto 172,000. So more lies from Braverman !

    Welcome to the Asylum UK hotline. Your call is important to us. Currently we are dealing with a high volume of calls. You are number ONE SEVEN ONE NINE NINE SIX in the queue.
    Please hold the line. The call handler will be with you as soon as possible.
    [Rod Stewart Sailing plays]
    Or Hotel California plays.
    This is where I am just sharper than you Farooq. Though you do give it a damn good try, I must admit.
    ICYMI:

    "You won't do well to silence me
    With your words or wagging tongue"
    Not even more shit eighties synth music 🫣 what’s wrong with you PB people?
    Eighties? Excuse me, this was released in 2023!

    Tsk! Kids these days!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Selebian said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    These are largely available, are they not?
    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/graduate-outcomes-by-degree-subject-and-university
    (report and the additional tables)

    Not sure that the differentials compared to non-grads are included (but anyone going to university should be capable of working that out from published figures) and not 30 years out, but then I'm not sure that information on long term outcomes for someone doing a course 30 years ago is that relevant. 30 years ago is in the middle of the 90s mass expansion so things could be quite different now in many places.
    "Are they not?"

    Is that a Scottishism? I always imagine it said with a Scottish accent. Perhaps too much Dr Finlay as a child.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:



    Randomness, luck, chance and opportunity steer all things. Every single important bit of my (lucky) life at this moment would have been different - radically so, but for being placed in a particular language subject set, against my will, at school at age 12.

    Most lives when you track back depend on utterly trivial forks in the road.

    And the single most influential chance factor of all is birth circumstances - where and to whom you are born.
    Yes, exactly. That's the philosophical underpinning of the left-wing attitudes that we were discussing earlier. If life is significantly determined by luck, it makes sense for the lucky ones to help the unlucky ones - not least as one can flip from one to the other inside one's lifespan. Most of us will end up dependent on others.
    This is why I'm on the left. 'Everyone can succeed with drive and ambition' rhetoric is fine for pep talks but has no place in politics.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    The government has delayed the “40 new hospitals” until 2030 or beyond.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Some perspective on the immigration numbers:

    The new total will include 174,200 Ukrainian refugees and 160,700 Hongkongers fleeing repression in China — groups entering the country via special visa schemes that command considerable public support.

    It will also include large numbers of foreign students — they totaled 485,758 last year


    https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-brexit-done-uk-conservatives-on-immigration-rishi-sunak/

    Though to be fair since we are talking net migration and a significant number of those students will leave each year, it is debatable how much influence student numbers have on the figures we are talking about.
    I am very cynical about "students".

    I think it's a back-door for many to get into the UK permanently, particularly since they can bring families too - it's only the fees that cap the numbers.
    If we greatly reduce the numbers of foreign students, we will need to find alternative funding for universities. Though we know the instinct of the right would be simply to shut half of them down, why waste money on "David Beckham Studies" anyway?
    Figures for courses should be published against average non graduate stats. For each course

    Course name
    %unemployed and %wage differential vs non graduates at 1,5,10,20 and 30 years.
    I suspect indeed on those measures some courses are worthless.

    While some take a course out of pure intellectual interest many however do so because they think it will give them a higher paying job.

    Students deserve these figures to allow them the information they need to choose.
    Why waste money on "Jane Austen studies"? English was the media studies of its day. For the sake of the country, employers need to become less snooty about where they recruit from, like when Google discovered its best programmers did not come from Ivy League colleges.

    I'm in favour of education for all. Cynics can have a field day allocating courses to trade schools or finishing schools but the rich and powerful often went to the latter.
    Having to do all those trendy things like learn Anglo Saxon, read Beowulf, The Battle of Maldon and the Parlement of Foules never felt quite to have the robust rigour of a proper old fashioned media studies course. But distance lends enchantment perhaps.

    If you look back to when English courses were introduced over a hundred years ago, the arguments were the same. Learning poems was for schoolchildren. Reading novels was a trivial pursuit; worse than that, a woman's hobby. Face it, an English degree is a posh version of Richard & Judy's book club. And how many English graduates go on to become poets or novelists?
    The capacity to translate Beowulf or to identify classical sources in Paradise Lost has never failed to give me that extra edge in the competitive race of life. Pub talk is always enlivened by informed discussion of The Dream of the Rood. Grandchildren open mouthed and enchanted by tales of Gorboduc and the Dunciad.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    I see Rishi Sunak now claims to like Jilly Cooper novels.
    What a cringing berk he is.
This discussion has been closed.