I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
Where have you been?
Which bit are you saying is wrong?
FPTP has largely produced poor governments. It persists not because it is good, it persists because it is in the vested interest of the two biggest parties.
It produces stable governments, not necessarily good ones. It allows parties time to try to change the country. It’s not necessarily to best form of government. I’m not sure PR is either.
You’re wrong. In the 100 years it produced stable government in the 40s, 50s, 80s and 2000s. The rest was not hugely stable. The last 13 years have been dismal from that point of view. You might also question the quality of the so called stable governments.
Time to give something else a go.
How was the nineties not stable? And which governments collapsed since 2010? Stable means unable to govern and thus a new election is needed.
You’re confusing stability for ‘has a majority’. They are not the same thing, as the last few years demonstrate. Boris won a majority, but no one thinks this government is remotely stable.
From the poll tax riots the two Tory leadership election, black Wednesday and the Maarstricht rebellions , the 1990s weren’t very stable.
I think we have a different definition of stability then. The ability to pass legislation, to win a vote of no confidence equals stable for me, but clearly not for you.
Is the Tory administration 2019-2023 stable?
Yes. See all the rather pathetic ‘general election now’ posters. The Tories remain in power, can pass legislation and can call the next election when they choose, up to Jan 2025. So yes. Unstable governments cannot pass laws, lose votes of no confidence and require fresh elections to try to achieve stability.
If you can’t get your economic policy accepted by the market, or you change your leader twice in 50days, I suggest your government is not stable. There is more to stability than HoC arithmetic.
A brief interruption that was resolved in record time. How long did Labour hang on to their Truss (Corbyn)?
FPTP produces coalitions as much as PR. It’s just the coalitions take the form of uneasy big tent groupings called the Tory and Labour Parties. And an uneasy small tent grouping like the LDs. Should Blair have been in the same party as Corbyn? Should Ken Clarke and…well virtually anyone in today’s Conservative Party?
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
You need an Isabella of Castille and Ferdinand of Aragon or at least a Joe McCarthy to sort these "culture warriors" out once and for all.
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
Where have you been?
Which bit are you saying is wrong?
FPTP has largely produced poor governments. It persists not because it is good, it persists because it is in the vested interest of the two biggest parties.
It produces stable governments, not necessarily good ones. It allows parties time to try to change the country. It’s not necessarily to best form of government. I’m not sure PR is either.
You’re wrong. In the 100 years it produced stable government in the 40s, 50s, 80s and 2000s. The rest was not hugely stable. The last 13 years have been dismal from that point of view. You might also question the quality of the so called stable governments.
Time to give something else a go.
How was the nineties not stable? And which governments collapsed since 2010? Stable means unable to govern and thus a new election is needed.
You’re confusing stability for ‘has a majority’. They are not the same thing, as the last few years demonstrate. Boris won a majority, but no one thinks this government is remotely stable.
From the poll tax riots the two Tory leadership election, black Wednesday and the Maarstricht rebellions , the 1990s weren’t very stable.
I think we have a different definition of stability then. The ability to pass legislation, to win a vote of no confidence equals stable for me, but clearly not for you.
Is the Tory administration 2019-2023 stable?
Yes. See all the rather pathetic ‘general election now’ posters. The Tories remain in power, can pass legislation and can call the next election when they choose, up to Jan 2025. So yes. Unstable governments cannot pass laws, lose votes of no confidence and require fresh elections to try to achieve stability.
If you can’t get your economic policy accepted by the market, or you change your leader twice in 50days, I suggest your government is not stable. There is more to stability than HoC arithmetic.
A brief interruption that was resolved in record time. How long did Labour hang on to their Truss (Corbyn)?
The collapse of the government’s economic policy is more than a brief interruption, and we’re still paying for it.
To my knowledge Corbyn didn’t make it to government.
You are referring to Brown's collapse of the Economy... and the ruination of the nastions finances one assumes.....
I would be highly surprised if this isn't a storm in a teacup. She shouldn't have done what she did, and in an earlier time should have been sacked. After Johnson's behaviour, why should she go?
I would normally be the last person to defend Braverman, but I am struggling to get past the confected outrage in all this. She had the same choice as potentially all of us, to pay the fine or attend a speed awareness course, she tried to establish whether she could in light of her position attend a speed awareness course alone and after a negative answer came back she then chose to pay the fine. Where's the scandal in that?
I would much rather the Opposition direct their focus elsewhere and only concentrate upon meaningful scandal when it really occurs. Goodness knows there's enough rotten about what this government is doing to the country daily without being sidetracked like this. And the further danger is that we are devaluing some of the appalling real scandals of the Johnson years by equating them as somehow equivalent to this. It's the equivalent of the boy who cried "wolf". When the next really bad scandal occurs and the wolf really is at the door it'll pass us by as just another routine breach of the ministerial code, words that have been reduced to be now almost devoid of meaning.
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I would be highly surprised if this isn't a storm in a teacup. She shouldn't have done what she did, and in an earlier time should have been sacked. After Johnson's behaviour, why should she go?
Did I miss something? Is Johnson still prime minister?
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
Where have you been?
Which bit are you saying is wrong?
FPTP has largely produced poor governments. It persists not because it is good, it persists because it is in the vested interest of the two biggest parties.
It produces stable governments, not necessarily good ones. It allows parties time to try to change the country. It’s not necessarily to best form of government. I’m not sure PR is either.
You’re wrong. In the 100 years it produced stable government in the 40s, 50s, 80s and 2000s. The rest was not hugely stable. The last 13 years have been dismal from that point of view. You might also question the quality of the so called stable governments.
Time to give something else a go.
How was the nineties not stable? And which governments collapsed since 2010? Stable means unable to govern and thus a new election is needed.
You’re confusing stability for ‘has a majority’. They are not the same thing, as the last few years demonstrate. Boris won a majority, but no one thinks this government is remotely stable.
From the poll tax riots the two Tory leadership election, black Wednesday and the Maarstricht rebellions , the 1990s weren’t very stable.
I think we have a different definition of stability then. The ability to pass legislation, to win a vote of no confidence equals stable for me, but clearly not for you.
Is the Tory administration 2019-2023 stable?
Yes. See all the rather pathetic ‘general election now’ posters. The Tories remain in power, can pass legislation and can call the next election when they choose, up to Jan 2025. So yes. Unstable governments cannot pass laws, lose votes of no confidence and require fresh elections to try to achieve stability.
If you can’t get your economic policy accepted by the market, or you change your leader twice in 50days, I suggest your government is not stable. There is more to stability than HoC arithmetic.
A brief interruption that was resolved in record time. How long did Labour hang on to their Truss (Corbyn)?
The collapse of the government’s economic policy is more than a brief interruption, and we’re still paying for it.
To my knowledge Corbyn didn’t make it to government.
You are referring to Brown's collapse of the Economy... and the ruination of the nastions finances one assumes.....
I’ll take AAA Labour over AA-,run on the pound Tories, any day.
Brexit will never be able to be resolved in an intelligent way if every time somebody points out something they're called a Rejoiner.
Let's be honest, Brexit isn't working. We could do a lot to resolve it short of rejoining but since the Tories are incapable of doing that despite starting the whole thing, Labour will have to. They must ignore the people calling them rejoiners at all costs, these are the same people that crashed the car in the first place.
The problem you have is that, whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, to many of those advocating changes to 'resolve' Brexit are the same who tried so hard to stop it in the first place before it had even happened. They shoed themselves to be untrsutworthy and dishonest and are now asking to be trusted again.
There ar many ways that the current sitiation could be improved if people had the will to do so. But there are very few politicians out there honest and trustworthy enough to be entrusted with that task.
£397bn of service exports in 2022, an increase of 20% compared to 2021, and up 23% on exports in 2018. These comparators are obviously flattered by Covid but even so. The forecasts that the UK was going to be the bottom performer of the G7 are wrong. Our growth this year, whilst far from exciting, is going to be ahead of the Eurozone.
The relentless negativity of those who want to refight the battles of some years ago now are distorting where we are and where we are going. The west as a whole are suffering from an energy shock on the back of Ukraine and we are very far from immune from that but we need as a country to focus on what we need to do now to grow quickly, improve our tax base, improve our balance of payments from the disastrous years in the SM (our own fault, not the SM's) and give better chances to our children.
So I guess you're in 9% of the population that thinks Brexit has been a success?
I don't think that we have made full use of it yet.
Our current immigration policy should be a marked improvement on freedom of movement but it requires both better controls from the likes of Border Force and more active management by the government in terms of targets.
Our existing arrangements with the EU are capable of being improved and I very much hope that the Windsor agreement will be the start of that.
Our civil service seem very reluctant to implement changes that might cause divergence from the EU. Some of this, such as manufacturing standards, is understandable, some less so.
But I think, on balance, we are doing ok. Economic policy is much more important than Brexit and is the job of the government. I wanted more incentives to invest and train in the budget. I want to see our education system more integrated with the industries and skills of the future. The cost of gas following on the cost of Covid has made this very difficult but I would barely give the government a pass mark to date. Again, we should be doing better but it is not Brexit that is holding us back.
It's good to have different views.
Picking up on a couple of your points. GDP it depends how you slice it. 2022 was a good growth year for the UK, but it has definitely done the worst of the G7 since Covid, which happens to coincide with Brexit. We only managed to not to be the last in the G7 in Q1 2023 because Germany did marginally worse.
Our exports are also underperforming our peers with growth less than them in a booming market. Not surprising given the increase in trade barriers because of Brexit of course.
Personally I don't think there's a lot of point in dwelling on what went wrong. We are where are. But I do think it's important to acknowledge the damage caused because only then can we start to limit it.
We have had a major balance of payments problem since North Sea oil started to decline in the early 1990s. Nearly 30 consecutive years of trade deficits culminating in a significant quantity of our productive assets in foreign ownership and a rent paying economy.
This happened in the SM and the EU. It wasn't the fault of either but the economic incompetence of our own governments. Trying to pretend the same problems now are caused by Brexit is not, in my view, acknowledging the damage, it is recognising that our path has been unsustainable for a long time and it has caught up with us. We need to change and the excuse of the EU not letting us (which was never more than marginally true, at best) is no longer available.
Some problems are directly caused by Brexit; others were already present but made worse by Brexit; a third group of problems aren't related to Brexit, but Brexit is a distraction from solving them. Finally there are problems that have nothing to do with Brexit. No problems seem to be solved by Brexit.
Current account deficits look to be in the second category. Already present but made worse by Brexit.
I should add, I think there may be an area of agreement between us: Brexit will force us to do things differently. We're stuck with it now. I am wondering if a high immigration economy may be the way forward. At least it's different from what other countries are doing.
Rishi Sunak under intense pressure to launch investigation into whether Suella Braverman broke ministerial code - as Downing Street appears to distance itself from beleaguered home secretary.
I would normally be the last person to defend Braverman, but I am struggling to get past the confected outrage in all this. She had the same choice as potentially all of us, to pay the fine or attend a speed awareness course, she tried to establish whether she could in light of her position attend a speed awareness course alone and after a negative answer came back she then chose to pay the fine. Where's the scandal in that?
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I refer you to the thread header. I'm looking down the list of "Which issues would most determine how Britons would vote in a General Election?" and struggling to see where your culture war concerns fit into any of the definitions. 0% of 2019 Conservative voters cite "Other" as an issue so maybe it's not more than a rounding error for those on the right either.
No, I’m not. I simply differ on what stability means.
Do you honestly think Boris Johnson's administration was in any way stable?
For most of its run yes. The last weeks no, clearly.
Then I think you're dead wrong. All the stuff that has come out since says it was a travesty.
I think your view is clouded by hatred (understandable) of Johnson.
No I think everything I have read confirms the same. Perhaps your liking of him has clouded yours?
Corbyn was just as bad in how he managed his centre, I've read Left Out.
I detest Johnson. He served a purpose, resolving the Brexit impasse, but was wholly unsuited to any office above whelk stall.
He did not resolve Brexit though. He negotiated a terrible deal.
The deal might have been terrible but it closed the chapter. The deal will continue to change and evolve, hopefully to a much better place. You forget the disaster our parliament that led to the 2019 election. Too many tried to overturn the Brexit vote. They were probably in the right in terms of the nations future, but the population as a whole didn’t see it that way.
The deal might have been terrible but it closed the chapter. The deal will continue to change and evolve, hopefully to a much better place. You forget the disaster our parliament that led to the 2019 election. Too many tried to overturn the Brexit vote. They were probably in the right in terms of the nations future, but the population as a whole didn’t see it that way.
Closed what chapter? We're STILL arguing about Brexit even now.
The problem is that his lot are useless and made it worse. They are why we are in a mess now, evidently the Brexiteers cannot be trusted with Brexit.
It is time for Keir Starmer to give it a go as he is the only reasonable alternative. Because of the Tories anyone who tries to help is called a rejoiner or a traitor.
Evidently the deal needs to be re-done by somebody else.
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
Where have you been?
Which bit are you saying is wrong?
FPTP has largely produced poor governments. It persists not because it is good, it persists because it is in the vested interest of the two biggest parties.
It produces stable governments, not necessarily good ones. It allows parties time to try to change the country. It’s not necessarily to best form of government. I’m not sure PR is either.
You’re wrong. In the 100 years it produced stable government in the 40s, 50s, 80s and 2000s. The rest was not hugely stable. The last 13 years have been dismal from that point of view. You might also question the quality of the so called stable governments.
Time to give something else a go.
How was the nineties not stable? And which governments collapsed since 2010? Stable means unable to govern and thus a new election is needed.
You’re confusing stability for ‘has a majority’. They are not the same thing, as the last few years demonstrate. Boris won a majority, but no one thinks this government is remotely stable.
From the poll tax riots the two Tory leadership election, black Wednesday and the Maarstricht rebellions , the 1990s weren’t very stable.
I think we have a different definition of stability then. The ability to pass legislation, to win a vote of no confidence equals stable for me, but clearly not for you.
Is the Tory administration 2019-2023 stable?
Yes. See all the rather pathetic ‘general election now’ posters. The Tories remain in power, can pass legislation and can call the next election when they choose, up to Jan 2025. So yes. Unstable governments cannot pass laws, lose votes of no confidence and require fresh elections to try to achieve stability.
If you can’t get your economic policy accepted by the market, or you change your leader twice in 50days, I suggest your government is not stable. There is more to stability than HoC arithmetic.
A brief interruption that was resolved in record time. How long did Labour hang on to their Truss (Corbyn)?
Johnson was your Corbyn, and he was PM for an horrifically long three years.
Ukraine will soon unleash a stealthy exploding robotic submarine against the Russian Navy.
The Toloka TLK-150 is the first underwater drone to be designed and built entirely in Ukraine and is the product of a new military-civilian partnership called Brave1.
Brave1 was tight-lipped when asked by The Telegraph about the capabilities of its new weapon but naval analysts said that it represents a major technological upgrade for Ukraine.
No, I’m not. I simply differ on what stability means.
Do you honestly think Boris Johnson's administration was in any way stable?
For most of its run yes. The last weeks no, clearly.
Then I think you're dead wrong. All the stuff that has come out since says it was a travesty.
I think your view is clouded by hatred (understandable) of Johnson.
No I think everything I have read confirms the same. Perhaps your liking of him has clouded yours?
Corbyn was just as bad in how he managed his centre, I've read Left Out.
I detest Johnson. He served a purpose, resolving the Brexit impasse, but was wholly unsuited to any office above whelk stall.
He did not resolve Brexit though. He negotiated a terrible deal.
The deal might have been terrible but it closed the chapter. The deal will continue to change and evolve, hopefully to a much better place. You forget the disaster our parliament that led to the 2019 election. Too many tried to overturn the Brexit vote. They were probably in the right in terms of the nations future, but the population as a whole didn’t see it that way.
We left the EU in 2020 and the transitional arrangements at the end of the same year. Putting any blame on anyone but Johnson and his merry band of incompetents is sophistry. Leaders are supposed to lead not follow. Saying “oh, it’s what the people wanted” is pathetic. Promising what cannot be delivered unforgivable.
I would be highly surprised if this isn't a storm in a teacup. She shouldn't have done what she did, and in an earlier time should have been sacked. After Johnson's behaviour, why should she go?
I would normally be the last person to defend Braverman, but I am struggling to get past the confected outrage in all this. She had the same choice as potentially all of us, to pay the fine or attend a speed awareness course, she tried to establish whether she could in light of her position attend a speed awareness course alone and after a negative answer came back she then chose to pay the fine. Where's the scandal in that?
I would much rather the Opposition direct their focus elsewhere and only concentrate upon meaningful scandal when it really occurs. Goodness knows there's enough rotten about what this government is doing to the country daily without being sidetracked like this. And the further danger is that we are devaluing some of the appalling real scandals of the Johnson years by equating them as somehow equivalent to this. It's the equivalent of the boy who cried "wolf". When the next really bad scandal occurs and the wolf really is at the door it'll pass us by as just another routine breach of the ministerial code, words that have been reduced to be now almost devoid of meaning.
Someone is briefing very heavily against Braverman. Question is who and why. The who looks to be the Prime Minister's office. The why is unclear. It may be that they have decided she's a liability and are using this as an excuse to get rid of her. I think likely they are trying to bring her to heel and stay on message. But if she refuses it may come to the same thing.
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
FPT has delivered voting minority government for the most part, post war.
A majority on the whole don't get a government comprising of a party or parties they voted for. Government for the 40%.
They are not voting for parties, They are voting for an individual MP. Tocomplain that voters didn't get something they weren't voting for in the first place is illogical.
Braverman will probably resign the day the net migration figures come out brandishing the government’s immigration policy a failure, saying that the leadership has betrayed Brexit & the will of the people etc which will kick off her big campaign to be leader of the opposition
The deal might have been terrible but it closed the chapter. The deal will continue to change and evolve, hopefully to a much better place. You forget the disaster our parliament that led to the 2019 election. Too many tried to overturn the Brexit vote. They were probably in the right in terms of the nations future, but the population as a whole didn’t see it that way.
Closed what chapter? We're STILL arguing about Brexit even now.
The problem is that his lot are useless and made it worse. They are why we are in a mess now, evidently the Brexiteers cannot be trusted with Brexit.
It is time for Keir Starmer to give it a go as he is the only reasonable alternative. Because of the Tories anyone who tries to help is called a rejoiner or a traitor.
Evidently the deal needs to be re-done by somebody else.
We left the EU. That’s the chapter. We agreed terms of trade and cooperation. The planes kept flying, the ferries kept sailing. The deal was a bit shit, free trade isn’t the same as being in the single market.
Of course we are arguing over Brexit - the effects will ripple for decades. Doesn’t mean that the Johnson government didn’t at least get the first stage over the line.
Braverman will probably resign the day the net migration figures come out brandishing the government’s immigration policy a failure, saying that the leadership has betrayed Brexit & the will of the people etc which will kick off her big campaign to be leader of the opposition
Good point! A third possibility of the briefing against Braverman is that the PM's office expect Braverman to flounce off and are getting their retaliation in first.
I would normally be the last person to defend Braverman, but I am struggling to get past the confected outrage in all this. She had the same choice as potentially all of us, to pay the fine or attend a speed awareness course, she tried to establish whether she could in light of her position attend a speed awareness course alone and after a negative answer came back she then chose to pay the fine. Where's the scandal in that?
You missed the cover up then
Did I? Well I don't think I'm the only one. I really couldn't give a monkeys about the whole thing.
The deal might have been terrible but it closed the chapter. The deal will continue to change and evolve, hopefully to a much better place. You forget the disaster our parliament that led to the 2019 election. Too many tried to overturn the Brexit vote. They were probably in the right in terms of the nations future, but the population as a whole didn’t see it that way.
Closed what chapter? We're STILL arguing about Brexit even now.
The problem is that his lot are useless and made it worse. They are why we are in a mess now, evidently the Brexiteers cannot be trusted with Brexit.
It is time for Keir Starmer to give it a go as he is the only reasonable alternative. Because of the Tories anyone who tries to help is called a rejoiner or a traitor.
Evidently the deal needs to be re-done by somebody else.
We left the EU. That’s the chapter. We agreed terms of trade and cooperation. The planes kept flying, the ferries kept sailing. The deal was a bit shit, free trade isn’t the same as being in the single market.
Of course we are arguing over Brexit - the effects will ripple for decades. Doesn’t mean that the Johnson government didn’t at least get the first stage over the line.
But you concede that they did not resolve Brexit itself and that they ultimately presided over the mess we are in now, yes?
Rishi Sunak under intense pressure to launch investigation into whether Suella Braverman broke ministerial code - as Downing Street appears to distance itself from beleaguered home secretary.
No, I’m not. I simply differ on what stability means.
Do you honestly think Boris Johnson's administration was in any way stable?
For most of its run yes. The last weeks no, clearly.
Then I think you're dead wrong. All the stuff that has come out since says it was a travesty.
I think your view is clouded by hatred (understandable) of Johnson.
No I think everything I have read confirms the same. Perhaps your liking of him has clouded yours?
Corbyn was just as bad in how he managed his centre, I've read Left Out.
I detest Johnson. He served a purpose, resolving the Brexit impasse, but was wholly unsuited to any office above whelk stall.
He did not resolve Brexit though. He negotiated a terrible deal.
The deal might have been terrible but it closed the chapter. The deal will continue to change and evolve, hopefully to a much better place. You forget the disaster our parliament that led to the 2019 election. Too many tried to overturn the Brexit vote. They were probably in the right in terms of the nations future, but the population as a whole didn’t see it that way.
We left the EU in 2020 and the transitional arrangements at the end of the same year. Putting any blame on anyone but Johnson and his merry band of incompetents is sophistry. Leaders are supposed to lead not follow. Saying “oh, it’s what the people wanted” is pathetic. Promising what cannot be delivered unforgivable.
I’m sorry but that ignores the history of the times. People like Alastair Meeks were driven mad by the idea that a no deal Brexit might mean medicines not arriving in the U.K. The EU were bargaining hard to their advantage (why wouldn’t they?) Getting some kind a deal over the line was hugely significant. I don’t expect everyone to agree, but I do think it was an achievement of sorts. Go back and look at the politics of 2017 to 2019 to see the fix the country was in.
Now we are past this and the government or the next is at liberty to create a new relationship with the EU at their leisure, with no time pressure. I’m pretty sure that we will end up very closely aligned with SM.
It just confirmed to me how wrong I was and why I have moved back to my natural centre-left home.
It is incredibly depressing that John McDonnell, who understood how damaging Salisbury was, was cast aside.
Yes, I had and still have some time for McDonnell. He is at least a pragmatist. I note that he has broken with Corbyn over the latter's tankie stance on Ukraine.
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
FPT has delivered voting minority government for the most part, post war.
A majority on the whole don't get a government comprising of a party or parties they voted for. Government for the 40%.
They are not voting for parties, They are voting for an individual MP. Tocomplain that voters didn't get something they weren't voting for in the first place is illogical.
De jure they're voting for an individual to be an MP. De facto, they're usually choosing a party and don't know or don't care about the individual standing. For most people it's just a name, and they wouldn't know their candidates if they fell over them.
That's a product of our current political culture rather than the electoral system.
A third thing I learned on Twitter this morning (via Nick Timothy) is that 22% of study visas went to dependants, compared to 6% in 2019.
You can see what the government is *trying* to do about economic growth.
I cannot fathom it. I suspect it's to get more medical staff into the NHS quick-ish but it's one hell of a brave way to do it.
44% of the dependent visas are going to Indian nationals and 30% to Nigerian nationals. And it's expected to have gone from c.16k to 150k in the last year. That's on top of Indians being the biggest in boat crossings last month.
It's clear to me that student visas, as well as boat crossings, are simply a way to circumvent work permits to economically migrate - and the combined population of India and Nigeria is nearly 1.7 billion, so there will be no end to it.
To me, this is a greater “loss of control” than even the volumes we saw under FOM (against which, successive governments made no effective mitigation).
I can't think of a better way to kill off Brexit than pursuing this policy.
Brexit is already dead, as a governing philosophy. The wave function collapsed over Christmas 2021, after Frost’s resignation.
Fewer people think Brexit has gone well than believe the moon landings were faked.
The incoming government has no interest in maintaining Brexit, only in mitigating it. Brexit is now short-hand for arrant stupidity, bordering on suicide. They should probably rename the Darwin Awards the Brexit Awards.
And, yet, the pomposity of Rejoiners could be more than enough to keep it in the frame for years to come.
We’re not going to fix anything if you simply insult the people who are pointing out the problems as “pompous Rejoiners”
I've been insulted on here several times this evening. I think that's pretty pompous. And if you have only one eye to see then you're part of the problem.
Don't forget that it's sneering attitudes by self-regarding self-serving types that people were voting against in the first place.
If they've learned nothing from it then we will go precisely nowhere, and voting to continue to annoy them will be a strong motivator.
The deal might have been terrible but it closed the chapter. The deal will continue to change and evolve, hopefully to a much better place. You forget the disaster our parliament that led to the 2019 election. Too many tried to overturn the Brexit vote. They were probably in the right in terms of the nations future, but the population as a whole didn’t see it that way.
Closed what chapter? We're STILL arguing about Brexit even now.
The problem is that his lot are useless and made it worse. They are why we are in a mess now, evidently the Brexiteers cannot be trusted with Brexit.
It is time for Keir Starmer to give it a go as he is the only reasonable alternative. Because of the Tories anyone who tries to help is called a rejoiner or a traitor.
Evidently the deal needs to be re-done by somebody else.
We left the EU. That’s the chapter. We agreed terms of trade and cooperation. The planes kept flying, the ferries kept sailing. The deal was a bit shit, free trade isn’t the same as being in the single market.
Of course we are arguing over Brexit - the effects will ripple for decades. Doesn’t mean that the Johnson government didn’t at least get the first stage over the line.
But you concede that they did not resolve Brexit itself and that they ultimately presided over the mess we are in now, yes?
Brexit will never be ‘resolved’ - our relationship will continually evolve, as it did when we were in the common market and then the EU.
As to the mess we are in - of course the Tories own that, The caveat is the scale of the challenges in the last few years. The covid pandemic is in danger of being forgotten (as Leon predicted) as on the whole we prefer not to dwell on bad stuff, and things are, for most, back to normal now. The huge energy crisis has not been seen since the early 70s. Both of these would have scuppered ANY government. You can argue that the choices made in 2010 were wrong. I think we need more money and better ideas into health for a start. We need to find a way to better economic growth, and that probably is best approached by embracing green technologies and trying to lead rather than follow.
For what it’s worth I think the nation needs a majority Labour government that’s prepared to do hard things. We may well have it in less than year.
It just confirmed to me how wrong I was and why I have moved back to my natural centre-left home.
It is incredibly depressing that John McDonnell, who understood how damaging Salisbury was, was cast aside.
Yes, I had and still have some time for McDonnell. He is at least a pragmatist. I note that he has broken with Corbyn over the latter's tankie stance on Ukraine.
John McDonnell said "we have lost the fucking election" when he found out what Seumus had told Corbyn to say about Russia's poisoning. He was right.
If only Corbyn had gone with somebody sensible as his press secretary. Kevin Maguire was available
Rishi Sunak under intense pressure to launch investigation into whether Suella Braverman broke ministerial code - as Downing Street appears to distance itself from beleaguered home secretary.
Rishi Sunak under intense pressure to launch investigation into whether Suella Braverman broke ministerial code - as Downing Street appears to distance itself from beleaguered home secretary.
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
FPT has delivered voting minority government for the most part, post war.
A majority on the whole don't get a government comprising of a party or parties they voted for. Government for the 40%.
They are not voting for parties, They are voting for an individual MP. Tocomplain that voters didn't get something they weren't voting for in the first place is illogical.
De jure they're voting for an individual to be an MP. De facto, they're usually choosing a party and don't know or don't care about the individual standing. For most people it's just a name, and they wouldn't know their candidates if they fell over them.
That's a product of our current political culture rather than the electoral system.
Exactly. It serves the parties well to maintain the lie that they are the recipient of the votes. Stop those MPs getting to uppity with all that democracy bollocks.
Rishi Sunak under intense pressure to launch investigation into whether Suella Braverman broke ministerial code - as Downing Street appears to distance itself from beleaguered home secretary.
Rishi Sunak under intense pressure to launch investigation into whether Suella Braverman broke ministerial code - as Downing Street appears to distance itself from beleaguered home secretary.
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
FPT has delivered voting minority government for the most part, post war.
A majority on the whole don't get a government comprising of a party or parties they voted for. Government for the 40%.
They are not voting for parties, They are voting for an individual MP. Tocomplain that voters didn't get something they weren't voting for in the first place is illogical.
De jure they're voting for an individual to be an MP. De facto, they're usually choosing a party and don't know or don't care about the individual standing. For most people it's just a name, and they wouldn't know their candidates if they fell over them.
That's a product of our current political culture rather than the electoral system.
Exactly. It serves the parties well to maintain the lie that they are the recipient of the votes. Stop those MPs getting to uppity with all that democracy bollocks.
But it's exactly what's in the minds of most voters when they cast their ballot. The parties claiming them as a mandate for the party and its manifesto is an honest reflection of the intentions of the voters.
But unlike in a PR system, it doesn't have to be that way. There's nothing to stop people electing a parliament full of Martin Bell-style candidates.
The deal might have been terrible but it closed the chapter. The deal will continue to change and evolve, hopefully to a much better place. You forget the disaster our parliament that led to the 2019 election. Too many tried to overturn the Brexit vote. They were probably in the right in terms of the nations future, but the population as a whole didn’t see it that way.
Closed what chapter? We're STILL arguing about Brexit even now.
The problem is that his lot are useless and made it worse. They are why we are in a mess now, evidently the Brexiteers cannot be trusted with Brexit.
It is time for Keir Starmer to give it a go as he is the only reasonable alternative. Because of the Tories anyone who tries to help is called a rejoiner or a traitor.
Evidently the deal needs to be re-done by somebody else.
I suppose.both things can be true. The UK had to exit the EU because people voted for it. AND the whole thing's a mess, nothing is resolved and it's all the fault of the Conservatives and Johnson in particular.
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
FPT has delivered voting minority government for the most part, post war.
A majority on the whole don't get a government comprising of a party or parties they voted for. Government for the 40%.
They are not voting for parties, They are voting for an individual MP. Tocomplain that voters didn't get something they weren't voting for in the first place is illogical.
De jure they're voting for an individual to be an MP. De facto, they're usually choosing a party and don't know or don't care about the individual standing. For most people it's just a name, and they wouldn't know their candidates if they fell over them.
That's a product of our current political culture rather than the electoral system.
Exactly. It serves the parties well to maintain the lie that they are the recipient of the votes. Stop those MPs getting to uppity with all that democracy bollocks.
But it's exactly what's in the minds of most voters when they cast their ballot. The parties claiming them as a mandate for the party and its manifesto is an honest reflection of the intentions of the voters.
Well the first of those is simply wrong. And that is because the parties maintain that fiction. And the second is a joke. We already know from court cases that the manifesto has absolutely no legal standing and from political reality that the parties will ditch anything they really didn't want as soon as they are actually elected. Of course coalition just gives them the political cover to do it in the name of forming 'stable Government'.
Anyone using the excuse that people 'think' they are voting for a party as justification are simply indulging in the political equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome.
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I refer you to the thread header. I'm looking down the list of "Which issues would most determine how Britons would vote in a General Election?" and struggling to see where your culture war concerns fit into any of the definitions. 0% of 2019 Conservative voters cite "Other" as an issue so maybe it's not more than a rounding error for those on the right either.
The only one of the issues mentioned above that could be included as a culture war issue is immigration, which 27% still see as the pivotal issue.
The top issue unsurprisingly is the economy. Yet as I said if Labour win the next election and fail to cut inflation or grow the economy the polls will rebound to the Tories anyway. If they do improve the economy then the Tories will lose anyway and the best they can hope for is to rally their base around the culture war
Good drama on London Live 'Absence of War' with John Thaw in the title role based on David Hare's play about the Labour leadership in the 1992 election. I would advise Starmer and his team to watch
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
FPT has delivered voting minority government for the most part, post war.
A majority on the whole don't get a government comprising of a party or parties they voted for. Government for the 40%.
They are not voting for parties, They are voting for an individual MP. Tocomplain that voters didn't get something they weren't voting for in the first place is illogical.
De jure they're voting for an individual to be an MP. De facto, they're usually choosing a party and don't know or don't care about the individual standing. For most people it's just a name, and they wouldn't know their candidates if they fell over them.
That's a product of our current political culture rather than the electoral system.
Exactly. It serves the parties well to maintain the lie that they are the recipient of the votes. Stop those MPs getting to uppity with all that democracy bollocks.
But it's exactly what's in the minds of most voters when they cast their ballot. The parties claiming them as a mandate for the party and its manifesto is an honest reflection of the intentions of the voters.
Well, not the manifesto bit at least, since most people do not read them, and most of the contents are not widely reported. And we often find out afterwards that many MPs don't know a lot about what is in them, might have highly disagreed with bits, and in any case parties are highly selective about which bits they follow through on (for both good and bad reasons).
Parties really should save a lot of effort trying to pull together a coherent narrative and just release bullet point lists of intended goals and policies - the good ones include that as a summary in the chapters anyway.
I recall a LD one from, I think, 2017, which was quite schizophrenic as the opening and a lot of it was a pitch to be the new main opposition to a dominant Tory result which had seemed on the cards, and the rest was the standard manifesto fare of 'if we got in to power somehow then we'd do X'.
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
I do think we will probably get PR under Labour but not because Labour particularly wants it.
We wont get pr under labour for the simple reason is they will have to put it to a referendum and the result of it will be fuck no we dont want that
Nah, no referendum. Just do it.
Voting for our government is our choice not theirs, it is their job interview.....they dont get to tell us how to do the interview. Any party that tries to change the system without a referendum is going to land itself in the shit with voters.
The voting belongs to us not fuckwit politicians
If the Lib Dems demand PR and Labour agree, they should implement it. They'll have a mandate and it will be better for us all.
Then they wont mind if we just implement lamppost protocol
Do you honestly think PR is bad? Really?
PR is different. Under FPTP parties are coalitions. Generally in the U.K. we have majority governments which represent the coalition of the ruling party, and broadly implements manifestos. Under PM parties tend to splinter, and government relies on horse trading after the election. At which point manifestos get ripped up, Pace tuition fees and the Lib Dems. I don’t know which is best. For minor parties FPTP is unfair. UKIP representaed a lot of people but struggled to gain representation in parliament, as does the greens etc. But many would not like the act of a coalition formation either.
For all its faults, FPTP post has tended to deliver stable government in the U.K., which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
FPT has delivered voting minority government for the most part, post war.
A majority on the whole don't get a government comprising of a party or parties they voted for. Government for the 40%.
They are not voting for parties, They are voting for an individual MP. Tocomplain that voters didn't get something they weren't voting for in the first place is illogical.
De jure they're voting for an individual to be an MP. De facto, they're usually choosing a party and don't know or don't care about the individual standing. For most people it's just a name, and they wouldn't know their candidates if they fell over them.
That's a product of our current political culture rather than the electoral system.
Exactly. It serves the parties well to maintain the lie that they are the recipient of the votes. Stop those MPs getting to uppity with all that democracy bollocks.
But it's exactly what's in the minds of most voters when they cast their ballot. The parties claiming them as a mandate for the party and its manifesto is an honest reflection of the intentions of the voters.
But unlike in a PR system, it doesn't have to be that way. There's nothing to stop people electing a parliament full of Martin Bell-style candidates.
There isn't anything preventing that from happening, no. Other than the fact that it's not what people seem to want.
It feels to me like what you and Richard are saying is that voters could or should change their attitudes. That sounds to me like putting the cart before the horse.
I'm just pointing out one aspect of the current system that allows for more flexibility than PR.
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Brexit has been a disaster.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
It just confirmed to me how wrong I was and why I have moved back to my natural centre-left home.
It is incredibly depressing that John McDonnell, who understood how damaging Salisbury was, was cast aside.
Yes, I had and still have some time for McDonnell. He is at least a pragmatist. I note that he has broken with Corbyn over the latter's tankie stance on Ukraine.
I had not realised until recently that McDonnell came in as an MP in 1997, so despite being of an age witrh Corbyn he has been an MP for 14 years less.
I don't know what he did prior to becoming an MP (I'm sure he was involved in politics), but on seeing the difference in when they were first elected I did wonder if coming of political age in the Blair era contributed a lot to John being slicker, more professional, despite sharing a lot of the same politics, rather than being stewed in the politics of the early to mid 80s..
I would be highly surprised if this isn't a storm in a teacup. She shouldn't have done what she did, and in an earlier time should have been sacked. After Johnson's behaviour, why should she go?
I would normally be the last person to defend Braverman, but I am struggling to get past the confected outrage in all this. She had the same choice as potentially all of us, to pay the fine or attend a speed awareness course, she tried to establish whether she could in light of her position attend a speed awareness course alone and after a negative answer came back she then chose to pay the fine. Where's the scandal in that?
I would much rather the Opposition direct their focus elsewhere and only concentrate upon meaningful scandal when it really occurs. Goodness knows there's enough rotten about what this government is doing to the country daily without being sidetracked like this. And the further danger is that we are devaluing some of the appalling real scandals of the Johnson years by equating them as somehow equivalent to this. It's the equivalent of the boy who cried "wolf". When the next really bad scandal occurs and the wolf really is at the door it'll pass us by as just another routine breach of the ministerial code, words that have been reduced to be now almost devoid of meaning.
I can't work this out and who is benefitting from the 'leak' of this story. She is the home secretary. It looks like she needed to ask the civil service for some advice on what to do in light of her situation and she suggested a solution of her own (a 1 to 1 course), and then the civil service didn't want to help, and then leaked the whole thing with some kind of innuendo that she was acting inappropriately or had some kind of improper motivation. I'm not sure who she is supposed to ask for advice if not her own civil servants.
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Brexit has been a disaster.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
I would be highly surprised if this isn't a storm in a teacup. She shouldn't have done what she did, and in an earlier time should have been sacked. After Johnson's behaviour, why should she go?
I would normally be the last person to defend Braverman, but I am struggling to get past the confected outrage in all this. She had the same choice as potentially all of us, to pay the fine or attend a speed awareness course, she tried to establish whether she could in light of her position attend a speed awareness course alone and after a negative answer came back she then chose to pay the fine. Where's the scandal in that?
I would much rather the Opposition direct their focus elsewhere and only concentrate upon meaningful scandal when it really occurs. Goodness knows there's enough rotten about what this government is doing to the country daily without being sidetracked like this. And the further danger is that we are devaluing some of the appalling real scandals of the Johnson years by equating them as somehow equivalent to this. It's the equivalent of the boy who cried "wolf". When the next really bad scandal occurs and the wolf really is at the door it'll pass us by as just another routine breach of the ministerial code, words that have been reduced to be now almost devoid of meaning.
I can't work this out and who is benefitting from the 'leak' of this story. She is the home secretary. It looks like she needed to ask the civil service for some advice on what to do in light of her situation and she suggested a solution of her own (a 1 to 1 course), and then the civil service didn't want to help, and then leaked the whole thing with some kind of innuendo that she was acting inappropriately or had some kind of improper motivation. I'm not sure who she is supposed to ask for advice if not her own civil servants.
If it was not a ministerial matter I'm not sure why she would ask her civil servants. She could perhaps seek advice from a Spad?
As for innuendo she had some kind of improper motivation, it is hard to figurue out what other kind of motivation there could be in suggesting she get a bespoke solution rather than just taking one of the options any speeding fine letter sets out. Why would it even occur to her to ask if she could do it differently, and why did she think she should?
The innuendo should be that it is a deeply weird response to getting a fine, never mind if it was improper.
TSE's thread is 100% on the money, as is Gove. The problem is, and the reason for the focus on culture issues, is that the Tories don't have a good story to tell on the economy. The economy is rubbish and they're not doing anything worthwhile about it. So what else do they have?
You mean GDP is rubbish.
But for many millions - oldies, GenXers who have paid off their mortgages, teenagers who want a job things are very nice.
For other groups things aren't so good with the apogee of crap likely being a young, southern graduate.
Not so good for young people who want to buy a house, eventually retire, raise a family, work a job above min wage and not zero hours however
Actually it is.
There such a shortage of skilled workers because of insufficient training during recent decades then there are good opportunities for teenagers who want to learn a skill, work hard and earn money.
Obviously easier for them to earn enough to get a house the further north they are so southerners will have to 'get on their bikes' to find affordable housing.
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Brexit has been a disaster.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
It has reduced immigration from the EU at least and regained some sovereignty which is what those voted for it for.
Universal credit has ensured it always pays more to work, no matter how few hours, than stay on benefits full time.
Free schools have like Birbalsingh's have been a triumph, offering more choice to parents, strong disciplne and excellent exam results and top university entrance.
In 2010 Labour unemployment was 8% when Brown left office, it is now 4%.
It was a Tory led government that took the lowest earners out of tax, even if the LDs also took credit for it
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Brexit has been a disaster.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
It has reduced immigration from the EU at least and regained some sovereignty which is what those voted for it for.
Universal credit has ensured it always pays more to work, no matter how few hours, than stay on benefits full time.
Free schools have like Birbalsingh's have been a triumph, offering more choice to parents, strong disciplne and excellent exam results and top university entrance.
In 2010 Labour unemployment was 8% when Brown left office, it is now 4%.
It was a Tory led government that took the lowest earners out of tax, even if the LDs also took credit for it
I don't believe the tories want to win the next election. They want a brief period in opposition, preferably when labour don't have much of a majority, so they can come up with some new ideas for government.
I think the 'culture wars' issues will work a lot better for the conservative party when they can try and pin the problem on the labour party being in power. As things stand they are rather impotent because they are complaining about things that are basically within their control.
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Brexit has been a disaster.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
Perhaps you could to define what you mean by 'disaster'.
And normally you're all in favour of more benefits.
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Brexit has been a disaster.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
It has reduced immigration from the EU at least and regained some sovereignty which is what those voted for it for.
Universal credit has ensured it always pays more to work, no matter how few hours, than stay on benefits full time.
Free schools have like Birbalsingh's have been a triumph, offering more choice to parents, strong disciplne and excellent exam results and top university entrance.
In 2010 Labour unemployment was 8% when Brown left office, it is now 4%.
It was a Tory led government that took the lowest earners out of tax, even if the LDs also took credit for it
Wut, they literally opposed the policy
As with all Tories HYUFD doesn't allow facts get in the way of a statement that sounds good for the Tories.
However, it's wrong as if the aim was still to get people out of tax the Tories would be increasing the tax allowance while say shifting other bands lower.
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Brexit has been a disaster.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
It has reduced immigration from the EU at least and regained some sovereignty which is what those voted for it for.
Universal credit has ensured it always pays more to work, no matter how few hours, than stay on benefits full time.
Free schools have like Birbalsingh's have been a triumph, offering more choice to parents, strong disciplne and excellent exam results and top university entrance.
In 2010 Labour unemployment was 8% when Brown left office, it is now 4%.
It was a Tory led government that took the lowest earners out of tax, even if the LDs also took credit for it
Wut, they literally opposed the policy
If any policy was brought in during the coalition then both parties are entitled to claim credit, regardless of who came up with it first or opposed it initially - whatever their initial stances they hashed out an agreement and delivered together.
Do we give no credit to any party backing the gay marriage vote for example because the past position of the party may have been different?
Likewise both parties can be blamed for any policies brought in during the coalition.
I would be highly surprised if this isn't a storm in a teacup. She shouldn't have done what she did, and in an earlier time should have been sacked. After Johnson's behaviour, why should she go?
I would normally be the last person to defend Braverman, but I am struggling to get past the confected outrage in all this. She had the same choice as potentially all of us, to pay the fine or attend a speed awareness course, she tried to establish whether she could in light of her position attend a speed awareness course alone and after a negative answer came back she then chose to pay the fine. Where's the scandal in that?
I would much rather the Opposition direct their focus elsewhere and only concentrate upon meaningful scandal when it really occurs. Goodness knows there's enough rotten about what this government is doing to the country daily without being sidetracked like this. And the further danger is that we are devaluing some of the appalling real scandals of the Johnson years by equating them as somehow equivalent to this. It's the equivalent of the boy who cried "wolf". When the next really bad scandal occurs and the wolf really is at the door it'll pass us by as just another routine breach of the ministerial code, words that have been reduced to be now almost devoid of meaning.
I can't work this out and who is benefitting from the 'leak' of this story. She is the home secretary. It looks like she needed to ask the civil service for some advice on what to do in light of her situation and she suggested a solution of her own (a 1 to 1 course), and then the civil service didn't want to help, and then leaked the whole thing with some kind of innuendo that she was acting inappropriately or had some kind of improper motivation. I'm not sure who she is supposed to ask for advice if not her own civil servants.
I don't think she was asking for advice. She was asking her civil servants to do something improper that they refused to do.
I agree it's not a huge deal as they and she didn't actually do what she asked them to do. The politics is where this is interesting. Who is briefing against her and why. It's from within her own party, and probably her own government, not the opposition.
I would be highly surprised if this isn't a storm in a teacup. She shouldn't have done what she did, and in an earlier time should have been sacked. After Johnson's behaviour, why should she go?
I would normally be the last person to defend Braverman, but I am struggling to get past the confected outrage in all this. She had the same choice as potentially all of us, to pay the fine or attend a speed awareness course, she tried to establish whether she could in light of her position attend a speed awareness course alone and after a negative answer came back she then chose to pay the fine. Where's the scandal in that?
I would much rather the Opposition direct their focus elsewhere and only concentrate upon meaningful scandal when it really occurs. Goodness knows there's enough rotten about what this government is doing to the country daily without being sidetracked like this. And the further danger is that we are devaluing some of the appalling real scandals of the Johnson years by equating them as somehow equivalent to this. It's the equivalent of the boy who cried "wolf". When the next really bad scandal occurs and the wolf really is at the door it'll pass us by as just another routine breach of the ministerial code, words that have been reduced to be now almost devoid of meaning.
I agree that it doesn't seem that big of a deal (and I have zero love for Braverman), but the problem seems to be asking Civil Servants to help her with a personal matter, which is something you're not supposed to do.
"Ministers are banned from directing civil servants to help with their personal affairs under the code, which states that they have a personal obligation to ensure that “no conflict arises, or appears to arise between their personal interests and public duties”.
They are also expected to abide by the Nolan principles of public life, which set ethical standards for ministers and are written into the ministerial code. There is now a range of sanctions available for ministers who are in breach."
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
I'd argue, and same to @FF43, that HRC's comments are not just sour grapes but also contributed to the worsening politics in the States. Clinton calling Trump an illegitimate President just gave his supporters the excuse they wanted to up the ante the next time.
With regards to @FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
It just confirmed to me how wrong I was and why I have moved back to my natural centre-left home.
It is incredibly depressing that John McDonnell, who understood how damaging Salisbury was, was cast aside.
Yes, I had and still have some time for McDonnell. He is at least a pragmatist. I note that he has broken with Corbyn over the latter's tankie stance on Ukraine.
I had not realised until recently that McDonnell came in as an MP in 1997, so despite being of an age witrh Corbyn he has been an MP for 14 years less.
I don't know what he did prior to becoming an MP (I'm sure he was involved in politics), but on seeing the difference in when they were first elected I did wonder if coming of political age in the Blair era contributed a lot to John being slicker, more professional, despite sharing a lot of the same politics, rather than being stewed in the politics of the early to mid 80s..
Similar age to Nick Palmer as well, who was also first elected in 1997.
Most political careers are affected by where and when someone becomes a candidate.
I don't believe the tories want to win the next election. They want a brief period in opposition, preferably when labour don't have much of a majority, so they can come up with some new ideas for government.
I think very few Tory MPs really want that. Intellectually they might see the benefits of a refreshing period in opposition, but in practice a party follows the dictum that it's always better to be in power than out. You never know, you might be able to figure something out.
And an intended 'brief period' can quickly go wrong - we've had stretches of 18 years, 13 years, and 13 years (and counting) for the other major party being in opposition. Even hoping Labour win but without a majority is risky, since they might somehow deliver, or the people might go 'F*ck it, best give them a bit more of a boost, the Tories are still not up to it'.
I don't believe the tories want to win the next election. They want a brief period in opposition, preferably when labour don't have much of a majority, so they can come up with some new ideas for government.
I think the 'culture wars' issues will work a lot better for the conservative party when they can try and pin the problem on the labour party being in power. As things stand they are rather impotent because they are complaining about things that are basically within their control.
The data in the header suggests the opposite
Elections are generally about the economy and public services, but other issues can also become salient; that is why Labour have been going on about crime, for instance.
I don't believe the tories want to win the next election. They want a brief period in opposition, preferably when labour don't have much of a majority, so they can come up with some new ideas for government.
I think the 'culture wars' issues will work a lot better for the conservative party when they can try and pin the problem on the labour party being in power. As things stand they are rather impotent because they are complaining about things that are basically within their control.
Yes, another Tory win would probably be the Major government 1992-97 except worse. It would be all downhill from there with even more Tory councillors losing their seats, even more party infighting etc.
The party in opposition can at least return to conservative principles and it will be up to Labour to improve the economy, if they don't and fast the swingback to the Tory opposition will be swift. While as you say once in opposition under a more rightwing leader there can be clearer blue water on the culture wars between the Tory opposition and the Starmer government
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
I'd argue, and same to FF43, that HRC's comments are not just sour grapes but also contributed to the worsening politics in the States. Clinton calling Trump an illegitimate President just gave his supporters the excuse they wanted to up the ante the next time.
With regards to FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
I was speaking generically, but the reason for the second paragraph was because I agree calling a victor illegitimate is in fact going beyond simple sour grapes. It's still nowhere near as bad as where things hgave gotten in terms of direct action, incitement of violence and possibly even criminal behaviour, and so an equivalence argument would fail, but declaring illegitimacy (which is more than just tweeting #notmypresident or whatever, which is just performance) would raise flags.
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Brexit has been a disaster.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
It has reduced immigration from the EU at least and regained some sovereignty which is what those voted for it for.
Universal credit has ensured it always pays more to work, no matter how few hours, than stay on benefits full time.
Free schools have like Birbalsingh's have been a triumph, offering more choice to parents, strong disciplne and excellent exam results and top university entrance.
In 2010 Labour unemployment was 8% when Brown left office, it is now 4%.
It was a Tory led government that took the lowest earners out of tax, even if the LDs also took credit for it
Wut, they literally opposed the policy
No they didn't, it was Osborne who proposed it as Chancellor and Tory MPs voted for the budget including it
It just confirmed to me how wrong I was and why I have moved back to my natural centre-left home.
It is incredibly depressing that John McDonnell, who understood how damaging Salisbury was, was cast aside.
Yes, I had and still have some time for McDonnell. He is at least a pragmatist. I note that he has broken with Corbyn over the latter's tankie stance on Ukraine.
John McDonnell said "we have lost the fucking election" when he found out what Seumus had told Corbyn to say about Russia's poisoning. He was right.
If only Corbyn had gone with somebody sensible as his press secretary. Kevin Maguire was available
Anti Tory for sure but never had a reputation for being radical left. I'm sure Corbyn wanted 'one of us.'
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
I'd argue, and same to @FF43, that HRC's comments are not just sour grapes but also contributed to the worsening politics in the States. Clinton calling Trump an illegitimate President just gave his supporters the excuse they wanted to up the ante the next time.
With regards to @FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
I don't think it's splitting hairs. There is a material difference between Trump's and Clinton's allegations. Would be a large difference if her assertions are true, which is possible.
But I don't think her comments were wise, precisely because they will be treated in the same way as Trump's. It doesn't do any good.
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
I'd argue, and same to @FF43, that HRC's comments are not just sour grapes but also contributed to the worsening politics in the States. Clinton calling Trump an illegitimate President just gave his supporters the excuse they wanted to up the ante the next time.
With regards to @FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
By telling people that Trump was an illegitimate president who had effectively been chosen by the Kremlin, Clinton herself became one of the major disseminators of Russian propaganda.
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
I'd argue, and same to @FF43, that HRC's comments are not just sour grapes but also contributed to the worsening politics in the States. Clinton calling Trump an illegitimate President just gave his supporters the excuse they wanted to up the ante the next time.
With regards to @FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
I don't think it's splitting hairs. There is a material difference between Trump's and Clinton's allegations. Would be a large difference if her assertions are true, which is possible.
But I don't think her comments were wise, precisely because they will be treated in the same way as Trump's. It doesn't do any good.
There is not a material difference. Clinton accused Trump of being an illegitimate President and Trump accused Biden of stealing the election. Both claimed the same thing - the winner should not be President.
Mind you, Clinton was only copying Carter in her comments:
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Brexit was hardly bugger all, it was probably the biggest change in Britain's foreign policy since WW2. Nor was universal credit, free schools, reducing the levels of unemployment Labour left in 2010, taking the lowest earners out of income tax etc
Brexit has been a disaster.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
It has reduced immigration from the EU at least and regained some sovereignty which is what those voted for it for.
Universal credit has ensured it always pays more to work, no matter how few hours, than stay on benefits full time.
Free schools have like Birbalsingh's have been a triumph, offering more choice to parents, strong disciplne and excellent exam results and top university entrance.
In 2010 Labour unemployment was 8% when Brown left office, it is now 4%.
It was a Tory led government that took the lowest earners out of tax, even if the LDs also took credit for it
Wut, they literally opposed the policy
If a policy was brought in during the coalition then both parties are entitled to claim credit, regardless of who came up with it first or opposed it initially - whatever their initial stances they hashed out an agreement and delivered together.
Do we give no credit to any party backing the gay marriage vote for example because the past position of the party may have been different?
I give no credit at all to the Conservative party for equal marriage because they voted against it. Credit given to those Conservatives who voted for it, of course. But given they were outnumbered by their party colleagues to opposed it, the Conservatives can absolutely get to fuck on that issue.
You've missed my point - there had not been gay marriage before, including during the entirety of the previous Labour administration, so I presume that at least the big two parties both opposed the idea prior to that point, in very recent memory in fact. So there was a change in position, and a very welcome one.
Yet the argument that the Tories cannot claim credit for a coalition policy because prior to the coalition they opposed that policy is to me exactly the same as claiming no party can take claim credit for supporting the gay marriage vote, even if they did so unanimously (wiki tells us that in fact 14 Labour and 4 LDs voted against it, obviously far smaller proportions that the Tories), because they literally opposed it previously. By the same logic Labour, who overwhelmingly backed the vote, should get no credit because they literally used to oppose it, at least by never approving it when they had the chance.
Ultimately if the parties in a coalition came together in support of a policy then I think it is fair game for them to jostle for credit for who came up with the idea first, but I have always found it slightly ridiculous that some LDs in particular think it is unfair for the Tories to claim credit for it. They all voted for those things, and the other side may well have changed their minds upon seeing it works.
The argument seems to be that if a party agrees to do something begrudgingly at first it doesn't count, but that's nonsense. The gay marriage vote is on stronger grounds in that a plurality of Tory MPs did not back it, but that won't have been true for most coalition policies.
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
I'd argue, and same to @FF43, that HRC's comments are not just sour grapes but also contributed to the worsening politics in the States. Clinton calling Trump an illegitimate President just gave his supporters the excuse they wanted to up the ante the next time.
With regards to @FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
I don't think it's splitting hairs. There is a material difference between Trump's and Clinton's allegations. Would be a large difference if her assertions are true, which is possible.
But I don't think her comments were wise, precisely because they will be treated in the same way as Trump's. It doesn't do any good.
There is not a material difference. Clinton accused Trump of being an illegitimate President and Trump accused Biden of stealing the election. Both claimed the same thing - the winner should not be President.
Mind you, Clinton was only copying Carter in her comments:
The actions of both are clearly different - including so many bogus lawsuits, pressuring officials to act unlawfully (such as with Pence) and so on, so the argument here is presumably that the issue is a difference of degree and not a difference of kind.
That could be true, the accusation of illegitimacy was wrong behaviour, but of course differences of degree can be rather significant, like difference between a summer day of 15 degrees and 45 degrees.
Interestingly looking at the gay marriage vote in the Lords a plurality of Tories there supported the bill (by voting against a wrecking amendment at second reading), though as with the Commons there were large numbers who did not vote, and Crossbenchers were pretty evenly divided.
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
I'd argue, and same to @FF43, that HRC's comments are not just sour grapes but also contributed to the worsening politics in the States. Clinton calling Trump an illegitimate President just gave his supporters the excuse they wanted to up the ante the next time.
With regards to @FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
I don't think it's splitting hairs. There is a material difference between Trump's and Clinton's allegations. Would be a large difference if her assertions are true, which is possible.
But I don't think her comments were wise, precisely because they will be treated in the same way as Trump's. It doesn't do any good.
There is not a material difference. Clinton accused Trump of being an illegitimate President and Trump accused Biden of stealing the election. Both claimed the same thing - the winner should not be President.
Mind you, Clinton was only copying Carter in her comments:
The actions of both are clearly different - including so many bogus lawsuits, pressuring officials to act unlawfully (such as with Pence) and so on, so the argument here is presumably that the issue is a difference of degree and not a difference of kind.
That could be true, the accusation of illegitimacy was wrong behaviour, but of course differences of degree can be rather significant, like difference between a summer day of 15 degrees and 45 degrees.
There was quite a serious campaign to get the electoral college to overrule the result in 2016.
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
I'd argue, and same to @FF43, that HRC's comments are not just sour grapes but also contributed to the worsening politics in the States. Clinton calling Trump an illegitimate President just gave his supporters the excuse they wanted to up the ante the next time.
With regards to @FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
I don't think it's splitting hairs. There is a material difference between Trump's and Clinton's allegations. Would be a large difference if her assertions are true, which is possible.
But I don't think her comments were wise, precisely because they will be treated in the same way as Trump's. It doesn't do any good.
There is not a material difference. Clinton accused Trump of being an illegitimate President and Trump accused Biden of stealing the election. Both claimed the same thing - the winner should not be President.
Mind you, Clinton was only copying Carter in her comments:
The actions of both are clearly different - including so many bogus lawsuits, pressuring officials to act unlawfully (such as with Pence) and so on, so the argument here is presumably that the issue is a difference of degree and not a difference of kind.
That could be true, the accusation of illegitimacy was wrong behaviour, but of course differences of degree can be rather significant, like difference between a summer day of 15 degrees and 45 degrees.
There was quite a serious campaign to get the electoral college to overrule the result in 2016.
Ukraine will soon unleash a stealthy exploding robotic submarine against the Russian Navy.
The Toloka TLK-150 is the first underwater drone to be designed and built entirely in Ukraine and is the product of a new military-civilian partnership called Brave1.
Brave1 was tight-lipped when asked by The Telegraph about the capabilities of its new weapon but naval analysts said that it represents a major technological upgrade for Ukraine.
There was an American program to do something similar sounding with the Mk 48 - give it an extreme range, low speed option, complete with the option to virtually stop in the water. Was based around an all new electric propulsion system, IIRC, though there was an OTTO fuelled alternative.
Yes the economy is key and getting the deficit and inflation down but that doesn't mean you can ignore the culture wars the woke left are raging, which the right needs to fight back on. As Meloni proved last year and Trump proved in 2016 fighting the culture wars on a conservative platform can even lead to victory
Had to laugh at: "...the culture wars the woke left are raging..."
You won't hear anyone on the left talking about the 'culture war'; it is entirely an invention and preoccupation of the right.
Only if you think trashing our heritage, trans in womens bathrooms', restricting conservative speakers etc is a non issue which those on the right don't
I would say many on the left not only think all you mention above are not only non-issues but also entirely acceptable, and indeed welcome, positions to hold. There are many on the left who would quite happily ban parties on the right for being "unacceptable" in a way that none (except on the neo-Nazi fringes) of the right would even dream of doing.
I would certainly consider a refusal to accept a properly certified election result (eg Trump and various other Republicans) as a bar to standing in any future ones. But this isn't a left v right thing. I'd say the same if it were Dems doing it.
I have liked your comment for the willingness to criticise both sides @kinabalu. Quick question for you though - should HRC be barred from standing for office again given her comments in 2019?
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed. 2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations. 3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
An accusation of illegitimacy without evidence is bad form, inappropriate, and should certainly be taken into account when considering voting for that person again. I'd not be comfortable doing so.
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
I'd argue, and same to @FF43, that HRC's comments are not just sour grapes but also contributed to the worsening politics in the States. Clinton calling Trump an illegitimate President just gave his supporters the excuse they wanted to up the ante the next time.
With regards to @FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
I don't think it's splitting hairs. There is a material difference between Trump's and Clinton's allegations. Would be a large difference if her assertions are true, which is possible.
But I don't think her comments were wise, precisely because they will be treated in the same way as Trump's. It doesn't do any good.
There is not a material difference. Clinton accused Trump of being an illegitimate President and Trump accused Biden of stealing the election. Both claimed the same thing - the winner should not be President.
Mind you, Clinton was only copying Carter in her comments:
The actions of both are clearly different - including so many bogus lawsuits, pressuring officials to act unlawfully (such as with Pence) and so on, so the argument here is presumably that the issue is a difference of degree and not a difference of kind.
That could be true, the accusation of illegitimacy was wrong behaviour, but of course differences of degree can be rather significant, like difference between a summer day of 15 degrees and 45 degrees.
There was quite a serious campaign to get the electoral college to overrule the result in 2016.
No there wasn't. There was a clear and prompt concession from the loser and the outgoing administration offered full cooperation with the transition.
Comments
Corbyn was just as bad in how he managed his centre, I've read Left Out.
I would much rather the Opposition direct their focus elsewhere and only concentrate upon meaningful scandal when it really occurs. Goodness knows there's enough rotten about what this government is doing to the country daily without being sidetracked like this. And the further danger is that we are devaluing some of the appalling real scandals of the Johnson years by equating them as somehow equivalent to this. It's the equivalent of the boy who cried "wolf". When the next really bad scandal occurs and the wolf really is at the door it'll pass us by as just another routine breach of the ministerial code, words that have been reduced to be now almost devoid of meaning.
Rishi Sunak under intense pressure to launch investigation into whether Suella Braverman broke ministerial code - as Downing Street appears to distance itself from beleaguered home secretary.
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1660380225203499010
The left is on the whole, not fighting any sort of "war" over culture.
Eventually some consensus of compromise will be formed and we'll argue about something else. This is gay rights all over again.
"A government source told the BBC that Braverman had been 'concerned' about her insurance premiums..."
What a twat she is.
You forget the disaster our parliament that led to the 2019 election. Too many tried to overturn the Brexit vote. They were probably in the right in terms of the nations future, but the population as a whole didn’t see it that way.
The problem is that his lot are useless and made it worse. They are why we are in a mess now, evidently the Brexiteers cannot be trusted with Brexit.
It is time for Keir Starmer to give it a go as he is the only reasonable alternative. Because of the Tories anyone who tries to help is called a rejoiner or a traitor.
Evidently the deal needs to be re-done by somebody else.
It is incredibly depressing that John McDonnell, who understood how damaging Salisbury was, was cast aside.
The Toloka TLK-150 is the first underwater drone to be designed and built entirely in Ukraine and is the product of a new military-civilian partnership called Brave1.
Brave1 was tight-lipped when asked by The Telegraph about the capabilities of its new weapon but naval analysts said that it represents a major technological upgrade for Ukraine.
“Russia has a new problem in the Black Sea,” said HI Sutton, a naval analyst, who described the Toloka TLK-150 as a “loitering torpedo”.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/05/20/exploding-underwater-drone-ukraine/
Let's get somebody in to take a more pragmatic approach, clearly that man is now Keir Starmer.
https://twitter.com/ayeshahazarika/status/1660381252317315074
LAB: 49% (-4)
CON: 19% (=)
PLC: 10% (-2)
RFM: 9% (+1)
LDM: 8% (+4)
GRN: 4% (+1)
Via @YouGov, 12-17 May.
Changes w/ 17-23 Feb.
30 point lead! In Wales lol
The deal was a bit shit, free trade isn’t the same as being in the single market.
Of course we are arguing over Brexit - the effects will ripple for decades. Doesn’t mean that the Johnson government didn’t at least get the first stage over the line.
I don’t expect everyone to agree, but I do think it was an achievement of sorts. Go back and look at the politics of 2017 to 2019 to see the fix the country was in.
Now we are past this and the government or the next is at liberty to create a new relationship with the EU at their leisure, with no time pressure. I’m pretty sure that we will end up very closely aligned with SM.
Don't forget that it's sneering attitudes by self-regarding self-serving types that people were voting against in the first place.
If they've learned nothing from it then we will go precisely nowhere, and voting to continue to annoy them will be a strong motivator.
As to the mess we are in - of course the Tories own that,
The caveat is the scale of the challenges in the last few years. The covid pandemic is in danger of being forgotten (as Leon predicted) as on the whole we prefer not to dwell on bad stuff, and things are, for most, back to normal now. The huge energy crisis has not been seen since the early 70s. Both of these would have scuppered ANY government. You can argue that the choices made in 2010 were wrong. I think we need more money and better ideas into health for a start. We need to find a way to better economic growth, and that probably is best approached by embracing green technologies and trying to lead rather than follow.
For what it’s worth I think the nation needs a majority Labour government that’s prepared to do hard things. We may well have it in less than year.
If only Corbyn had gone with somebody sensible as his press secretary. Kevin Maguire was available
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html
Anyone using the excuse that people 'think' they are voting for a party as justification are simply indulging in the political equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome.
The top issue unsurprisingly is the economy. Yet as I said if Labour win the next election and fail to cut inflation or grow the economy the polls will rebound to the Tories anyway. If they do improve the economy then the Tories will lose anyway and the best they can hope for is to rally their base around the culture war
How does their record over the last 13 years compare?
https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1659814983075495937
At least Labour did some stuff, the Tories have done bugger all.
Parties really should save a lot of effort trying to pull together a coherent narrative and just release bullet point lists of intended goals and policies - the good ones include that as a summary in the chapters anyway.
I recall a LD one from, I think, 2017, which was quite schizophrenic as the opening and a lot of it was a pitch to be the new main opposition to a dominant Tory result which had seemed on the cards, and the rest was the standard manifesto fare of 'if we got in to power somehow then we'd do X'.
1. Hillary Clinton says she thinks Trump to be an illegitimate president - because of voter fraud.- not the election process itself. I don't think she was asking him to be removed.
2. It depends whether her allegations and Trump's allegations of malpractice are true. I think there's more evidence for her allegations.
3. Unlike Trump Clinton isn't proposing to stand for office.
Universal credit has been a disaster.
Free schools have been a disaster.
Unemployment is nominally reduced but more people than ever are IN WORK and claiming benefits.
Taking lowest earners out of tax, was a Lib Dem policy!
I don't know what he did prior to becoming an MP (I'm sure he was involved in politics), but on seeing the difference in when they were first elected I did wonder if coming of political age in the Blair era contributed a lot to John being slicker, more professional, despite sharing a lot of the same politics, rather than being stewed in the politics of the early to mid 80s..
As for innuendo she had some kind of improper motivation, it is hard to figurue out what other kind of motivation there could be in suggesting she get a bespoke solution rather than just taking one of the options any speeding fine letter sets out. Why would it even occur to her to ask if she could do it differently, and why did she think she should?
The innuendo should be that it is a deeply weird response to getting a fine, never mind if it was improper.
There such a shortage of skilled workers because of insufficient training during recent decades then there are good opportunities for teenagers who want to learn a skill, work hard and earn money.
Obviously easier for them to earn enough to get a house the further north they are so southerners will have to 'get on their bikes' to find affordable housing.
Universal credit has ensured it always pays more to work, no matter how few hours, than stay on benefits full time.
Free schools have like Birbalsingh's have been a triumph, offering more choice to parents, strong disciplne and excellent exam results and top university entrance.
In 2010 Labour unemployment was 8% when Brown left office, it is now 4%.
It was a Tory led government that took the lowest earners out of tax, even if the LDs also took credit for it
It's deeply sad people have gone so far beyond just sour grapes comments now though.
It's so sad when implicit support for an autocratic regime's positions comes between friends.
I think the 'culture wars' issues will work a lot better for the conservative party when they can try and pin the problem on the labour party being in power. As things stand they are rather impotent because they are complaining about things that are basically within their control.
And normally you're all in favour of more benefits.
However, it's wrong as if the aim was still to get people out of tax the Tories would be increasing the tax allowance while say shifting other bands lower.
Do we give no credit to any party backing the gay marriage vote for example because the past position of the party may have been different?
Likewise both parties can be blamed for any policies brought in during the coalition.
I agree it's not a huge deal as they and she didn't actually do what she asked them to do. The politics is where this is interesting. Who is briefing against her and why. It's from within her own party, and probably her own government, not the opposition.
From The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/21/rishi-sunak-under-pressure-to-launch-ethics-probe-over-suella-braverman-speeding-row
"Ministers are banned from directing civil servants to help with their personal affairs under the code, which states that they have a personal obligation to ensure that “no conflict arises, or appears to arise between their personal interests and public duties”.
They are also expected to abide by the Nolan principles of public life, which set ethical standards for ministers and are written into the ministerial code. There is now a range of sanctions available for ministers who are in breach."
With regards to @FF43, I see where yo are coming from but it is splitting hairs - if she is saying publicly he is an illegitimate President, by the nature of her words, she is saying he has no legitimacy and therefore should not be President. It might be phrased in different ways from Trump saying Biden stole the election but it's the same implication - he is President due to illegitimate means.
As I have also argued as well before, a coup can take many forms - it does not have to be just violent, a la 'A Very British Coup'
Most political careers are affected by where and when someone becomes a candidate.
And an intended 'brief period' can quickly go wrong - we've had stretches of 18 years, 13 years, and 13 years (and counting) for the other major party being in opposition. Even hoping Labour win but without a majority is risky, since they might somehow deliver, or the people might go 'F*ck it, best give them a bit more of a boost, the Tories are still not up to it'.
The party in opposition can at least return to conservative principles and it will be up to Labour to improve the economy, if they don't and fast the swingback to the Tory opposition will be swift. While as you say once in opposition under a more rightwing leader there can be clearer blue water on the culture wars between the Tory opposition and the Starmer government
But I don't think her comments were wise, precisely because they will be treated in the same way as Trump's. It doesn't do any good.
Mind you, Clinton was only copying Carter in her comments:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/jimmy-carter-says-trump-wouldnt-be-president-without-help-from-russia/2019/06/28/deef1ef0-99b6-11e9-8d0a-5edd7e2025b1_story.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/21/uk-arms-sales-reach-record-85bn-as-global-tensions-escalate
Yet the argument that the Tories cannot claim credit for a coalition policy because prior to the coalition they opposed that policy is to me exactly the same as claiming no party can take claim credit for supporting the gay marriage vote, even if they did so unanimously (wiki tells us that in fact 14 Labour and 4 LDs voted against it, obviously far smaller proportions that the Tories), because they literally opposed it previously. By the same logic Labour, who overwhelmingly backed the vote, should get no credit because they literally used to oppose it, at least by never approving it when they had the chance.
Ultimately if the parties in a coalition came together in support of a policy then I think it is fair game for them to jostle for credit for who came up with the idea first, but I have always found it slightly ridiculous that some LDs in particular think it is unfair for the Tories to claim credit for it. They all voted for those things, and the other side may well have changed their minds upon seeing it works.
The argument seems to be that if a party agrees to do something begrudgingly at first it doesn't count, but that's nonsense. The gay marriage vote is on stronger grounds in that a plurality of Tory MPs did not back it, but that won't have been true for most coalition policies.
That could be true, the accusation of illegitimacy was wrong behaviour, but of course differences of degree can be rather significant, like difference between a summer day of 15 degrees and 45 degrees.
Trump 62,984,828 votes