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Memo to the “Bring Back Boris” brigade – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,897
    Andy_JS said:

    More on the Mogg revelation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65599380

    "Jacob Rees-Mogg has suggested the Conservatives introduced voter ID to boost their election chances, but it came "back to bite them".

    The former minister said it had "made it hard for our own voters" to take part in England's local elections.

    The polls on 4 May were the first in Britain where people had to show photo ID, such as a passport or driving licence, to vote.

    Mr Rees-Mogg said the change had "upset a system that worked perfectly well.""

    Well that's interesting. Mogg's complaint is that deliberate voter suppression was carried out incompetently, not that it was an outrageous attack on democracy. There I was, amazed to agree with Mogg on something, anything at all, literally for the first time. But no. The record is unbroken.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    edited May 2023

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    This was a Telegraph report, so it’s quite possible you are getting worked up about nothing, indeed I thought that they had briefed it was not happening.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,753

    Andy_JS said:

    Off topic

    One of the biggest mysteries of recent years: how an important archive on the subject of the study of terrorism "went missing" from Leicester University.

    https://theatheistconservative.com/2022/01/15/an-historically-valuable-archive-is-lost-by-a-university/

    "An historically valuable archive is lost by a university
    The University of Leicester has lost the archive of the Institute for the Study of Terrorism (IST)."

    That report is more than a year old. Has there been a new development?
    When you are an archivist a one year old story is stop press news. BTW archivists only have one job, which is not to lose things.

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,147
    Always think about how a photo could be cut to make you look like a fool / crook

    image
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,244
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    An interesting extension of the free speech argument.

    Abbott knocks Dominion over Tucker Carlson’s departure from Fox News
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4003679-abbott-knocks-dominion-over-tucker-carlsons-departure-from-fox-news/
    Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) bashed Dominion Voting Systems over the departure of Tucker Carlson from Fox News, following a report that the popular conservative primetime host was fired from the network as part of its settlement with the voting software company.
    Carlson was told by a member of the network’s board of directors that he was taken off the air as part of the Fox News settlement with Dominion, according to Axios, which cited unidentified sources briefed on the conversations. Abbott said if the reporting was true, then he is “happy that Dominion does not operate in Texas.”
    “We may disagree with other’s positions, but we should never try to improperly silence views contrary to our own,” Abbott said on Twitter on Saturday. “If Dominion wants to do business with Texas in the future, they should first answer questions about what role, if any, they played in silencing a prominent conservative journalist.”
    A Fox News spokesperson in a statement to Axios said that the idea that Carlson was let go of as part of the settlement was “categorically false.” An attorney for Dominion also told the news outlet that it did not insist on Carlson being fired...

    Tucker intends to subpoena every internal email and memo from both sides, with regard to the Fox/Dominion case, he’s convinced there was a quid pro quo to fire him as part of the settlement.
    Dominion (and specifically their PE owners) only care about making money. All they really want is an agreement from Fox to never question their voting machines integrity.
    Of course. But Tucker is hoping to find an email somewhere, that says, or at least alludes, to him being fired as part of the settlement.

    He has a contract with Fox until the end of 2024, and they appear to be intending to throw lawyers at keeping him silent until after the election.

    The one thing he has, is his own Twitter account, and now it looks like Twitter is about to fast-track their video offering to get him as a platform exclusive.
    It will be interesting to see if Tucker is able to make Twitter work.

    My guess, for what it's worth, is that Tucker could build a great business on YouTube.

    But Twitter will be a much harder proposition for two reasons:

    (1) Twitter knows shit about its users, and therefore makes bugger all off advertising to them. (And Musk fired the team responsible for entering into partnerships with other sites to increase their visibility into their users.)

    (2) Twitter isn't on any smart TVs. It's perfectly possible for Tucker's customer base to hit the button on their TV and play YouTube videos. It's much harder (if at all possible) for him to do that with Twitter.

    Tucker could never build a business on YouTube. He’d be immediately demonetised, as have been Steven Crowder and Glenn Beck, with random videos deleted for random reasons.

    Yes, Twitter needs to develop the platform in the way that YouTube have. There’s a feeling that their new management understands this.

    There’s also the contract that Tucker has with Fox, that allegedly mentions Youtube but not Twitter - which leaves him with little choice. Fox could tie him up in litigation and injunctions running past the election, so Twitter is his only option.
    Separately, GB News and others aren't demonetized. It's not *that* easy to get demonetized: Alex Jones only fell foul when he went down the whole Sandy Hook wasn't real rabbit hole.
    Not Alex Jones. Steven Crowder and Glenn Beck, much more reasonable characters.
    I could be wrong, but Glenn Beck has only claimed that some of his clips have been demonetized for containing "sensitive" or "adult" content - see https://twitter.com/glennbeck/status/1304094216449126400?lang=en
    YouTube demonetization and "the algorithm" are, to put it politely, quixotic. There are many cases where it happens and it isn't limited to the latest American right-wing shibboleths.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553
    edited May 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    More on the Mogg revelation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65599380

    "Jacob Rees-Mogg has suggested the Conservatives introduced voter ID to boost their election chances, but it came "back to bite them".

    The former minister said it had "made it hard for our own voters" to take part in England's local elections.

    The polls on 4 May were the first in Britain where people had to show photo ID, such as a passport or driving licence, to vote.

    Mr Rees-Mogg said the change had "upset a system that worked perfectly well.""

    I hope Mike does a thread header. It certainly warrants debate.
    JRM was speaking in the context of Labour said to be thinking about changes to the electorate, and was warning things did not always work out as hoped. Certainly I'd want to see evidence that newly enfranchised EU citizens would vote Labour.
    Widening the franchise is generally positive I would have thought. It might be cynical in the extreme if the aim is significant electoral advantage. Although I suspect Cameron regrets not reducing the EURef age to 16. If he had he might still be PM.

    On the other hand I find a determined approach to suppressing legitimate voter numbers to be undemocratic. If there was a significant risk of voter fraud that is one thing, but there wasn't? And in the area where voter fraud had been pinpointed, namely postal votes, the whole fraudulent mess was ignored.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    edited May 2023
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Off topic

    One of the biggest mysteries of recent years: how an important archive on the subject of the study of terrorism "went missing" from Leicester University.

    https://theatheistconservative.com/2022/01/15/an-historically-valuable-archive-is-lost-by-a-university/

    "An historically valuable archive is lost by a university
    The University of Leicester has lost the archive of the Institute for the Study of Terrorism (IST)."

    That report is more than a year old. Has there been a new development?
    When you are an archivist a one year old story is stop press news. BTW archivists only have one job, which is not to lose things.

    Plus delete or destroy records past their retention in line with the organisation's retention schedule, albeit that does not seem to apply to these records
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,666

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    I doubt it will feature in the 2024 manifesto. And if it does, and Labour is voted into power, then that's democracy for you. The fact you don't agree with it doesn't make it a 'disgrace', any more than my views on many things that the Tories have done. For example, I may think the whole Rwanda thing is a 'disgrace', but that the Tories are perfectly entitled to pursue things I disagree with. Indeed, I'd be rather disappointed if they didn't.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @jonsopel

    Don’t want to go over the top, but this is absolutely jaw-dropping. Someone who was in the cabinet when legislation on voter ID was agreed and went through parliament acknowledges it WAS an attempt to gerrymander the elections

    https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1658076536350601216

    Said at the conference of loons.
    Which appears to be taking some of its themes from the US right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates
    ...The UK’s low birthrate is the most pressing policy issue of the generation and is caused in part by “cultural Marxism” stripping young people of any hope, a Conservative MP has argued at the start of a populist-tinged conference in London.

    Addressing the National Conservatism gathering, run by a US-based thinktank, Miriam Cates said western countries faced an existential threat from falling reproduction..
    The whole purpose of this well funded conference is to import the craziness of the US right into UK politics. See also recent attempts to rig the franchise (which a former Tory cabinet minister has admitted was gerrymandering). The Tories are utterly toxic now.
    Yes, falling birth rates in the West have long been a preoccupation of the US hard-Right. I don't know if the reason they give for this concern - Christian white folk being outbred by the Muslims - was made explicit on this occasion.
    More a case of atheist white folk being outbred by Muslims, Christian evangelicals also have lots of children and Catholics used to have more too
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,266
    Farooq said:

    carnforth said:

    Farooq said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ukranian President Zelensky in UK this lunchtime. Turned up at Chequers in an helicopter to meet the PM.

    I've always had you down as something of a barbarian; using "an" in front of "helicopter" confirms it.
    Maybe he doesn't pronounce the h :smile:

    I think "an hereditary" is about the only defensible one these days. Most people drop the h there.
    A hereditary
    An hour
    A helicopter
    An honour
    A hammer

    An understanding
    A unicorn
    An arse
    A balloon

    in teh spirit of the thread
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,347

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    More on the Mogg revelation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65599380

    "Jacob Rees-Mogg has suggested the Conservatives introduced voter ID to boost their election chances, but it came "back to bite them".

    The former minister said it had "made it hard for our own voters" to take part in England's local elections...

    I wonder what it was the turned him against the wizard wheeze he voted for ?

    Getting spanked in the locals?

    A euphemism I hadn't come across.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,347
    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    O/t but I'm reading Savage Continent, by Keith Lowe, about the aftermath of WWII.

    The sufferings of Central and Eastern Europeans were indescribable.

    Belarus had lost a third of its population in the War, Ukraine, one fifth (on top of the Holodomor), Poland, Yugoslavia, and the Baltic States one sixth, Greece one tenth. Greece, Ukraine, and Poland, the Baltic States, however, were still in the middle of civil wars between nationalists, communists, and rival nationalists (Polish and Ukrainian nationalists slaughtered each others' people with gusto).

    Nobody batted an eyelid at the ethnic cleansing of Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Ruthenians, Bulgarians who found themselves on the wrong side of new borders (tragically, thousands of Jews who had survived the war, by getting themselves designated as "German", were then expelled from Poland and the Sudetenland). Few people wanted the surviving Jews back to reclaim their property, and most of the area was on the point of falling to communist rule.

    Thanks for that, I'll give that a read.

    Anyone got any recommendations for a good book about the American occupation of Japan?
    There's Michael Schaller's American Occupation of Japan.

    MacArthur, whom I regard as something of a dangerous megalomaniac, did have his positive side.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_MacArthur
    ...In 1947, MacArthur invited the founder and first executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Roger Nash Baldwin, to teach the Japanese government and people about civil rights and civil liberties. MacArthur also asked him to do the same for southern Korea, which MacArthur was responsible for when it was under U.S. Army occupation. MacArthur ignored members of the House Un-American Activities Committee and the FBI who believed that Baldwin was a Soviet-loving communist. He wanted a civil liberties expert to quickly introduce western-style civil rights to the Japanese and thought conservatives would take too long. Baldwin helped found the Japan Civil Liberties Union. In a confidential letter to ACLU leaders the anti-militarist and very liberal Baldwin said about MacArthur, "His observation on civil liberties and democracy rank with the best I ever heard from any civilian — and they were incredible from a general."..
    There's also this, but it doesn't seem to be in print ?
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25066295
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,194
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Off topic

    One of the biggest mysteries of recent years: how an important archive on the subject of the study of terrorism "went missing" from Leicester University.

    https://theatheistconservative.com/2022/01/15/an-historically-valuable-archive-is-lost-by-a-university/

    "An historically valuable archive is lost by a university
    The University of Leicester has lost the archive of the Institute for the Study of Terrorism (IST)."

    That report is more than a year old. Has there been a new development?
    When you are an archivist a one year old story is stop press news. BTW archivists only have one job, which is not to lose things.

    Plus delete or destroy records past their retention in line with the organisation's retention schedule, albeit that does not seem to apply to these records
    THat's a different kind of "archivist", though - a role which should never have been given that name, which is confusing. It's done in part to make sure there aren't any skeletons in cupboards.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,745
    Nigelb said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    More on the Mogg revelation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65599380

    "Jacob Rees-Mogg has suggested the Conservatives introduced voter ID to boost their election chances, but it came "back to bite them".

    The former minister said it had "made it hard for our own voters" to take part in England's local elections...

    I wonder what it was the turned him against the wizard wheeze he voted for ?

    Getting spanked in the locals?

    A euphemism I hadn't come across.
    It's what happens if you don't have a safe seat.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,053
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Football: not many bets this month compared to splendid April. Backed Wolves to win at home versus Everton at 2.82.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/05/epl-15-may-2023.html

    Good home performances lately for Wolves, although worth noting Evertone have also been quite handy away.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,342
    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @jonsopel

    Don’t want to go over the top, but this is absolutely jaw-dropping. Someone who was in the cabinet when legislation on voter ID was agreed and went through parliament acknowledges it WAS an attempt to gerrymander the elections

    https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1658076536350601216

    Said at the conference of loons.
    Which appears to be taking some of its themes from the US right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates
    ...The UK’s low birthrate is the most pressing policy issue of the generation and is caused in part by “cultural Marxism” stripping young people of any hope, a Conservative MP has argued at the start of a populist-tinged conference in London.

    Addressing the National Conservatism gathering, run by a US-based thinktank, Miriam Cates said western countries faced an existential threat from falling reproduction..
    The whole purpose of this well funded conference is to import the craziness of the US right into UK politics. See also recent attempts to rig the franchise (which a former Tory cabinet minister has admitted was gerrymandering). The Tories are utterly toxic now.
    Nearly as toxic as Starmer wanting to extend the franchise to children and foreigners. What next, let’s just let anyone in the UK on holiday vote in the election?

    I say this only slightly in jest, but am quite confident of a serious backlash against the proposals in polling.
    It's blantant gaslighting to accuse the other side of rigging the franchise while actually rigging the franchise.
    Stop doing it then
    Whatever else you can say about voter ID, it doesn’t change the franchise and it’s the norm in most non-Anglosphere democracies.
    In the light of the fact that all but one of EU nations have it demonstrates that the attempt to paint it as corrupt was toxic and damaging to democracy in this country. Unfortunately the Labour Party and its followers have bad history in this area. Demonise and question the integrity of your opponent is straight out of the Trump playbook. Either that or Trump took it straight out of the Labour Party playbook
    Which EU country is the exception?
    Just asking because you keep repeating this claim, and lots of people have asked you many times for your source, but you never give it. You also claimed that 46 out of 47 European countries require photo ID without giving a source. If you google this you find lots of rightwing US websites making the false claim that out of 47 European countries the UK is the only one that doesn't require photo ID to vote. You have also made the false claim that most EU countries do not have compulsory ID, without giving a source. Again the source for this seems to be rightwing US websites.

    Do you never give sources for your claims because you are embarrassed by these websites? I suppose that is to your credit.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    edited May 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Off topic

    One of the biggest mysteries of recent years: how an important archive on the subject of the study of terrorism "went missing" from Leicester University.

    https://theatheistconservative.com/2022/01/15/an-historically-valuable-archive-is-lost-by-a-university/

    "An historically valuable archive is lost by a university
    The University of Leicester has lost the archive of the Institute for the Study of Terrorism (IST)."

    That report is more than a year old. Has there been a new development?
    When you are an archivist a one year old story is stop press news. BTW archivists only have one job, which is not to lose things.

    Plus delete or destroy records past their retention in line with the organisation's retention schedule, albeit that does not seem to apply to these records
    THat's a different kind of "archivist", though - a role which should never have been given that name, which is confusing. It's done in part to make sure there aren't any skeletons in cupboards.
    Records Manager, though the 2 are often linked or done by the same person. There are also limits on retention of personal data and some retention of records categories is set by law or advised by the National Archives
  • Options
    northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,547
    edited May 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    O/t but I'm reading Savage Continent, by Keith Lowe, about the aftermath of WWII.

    The sufferings of Central and Eastern Europeans were indescribable.

    Belarus had lost a third of its population in the War, Ukraine, one fifth (on top of the Holodomor), Poland, Yugoslavia, and the Baltic States one sixth, Greece one tenth. Greece, Ukraine, and Poland, the Baltic States, however, were still in the middle of civil wars between nationalists, communists, and rival nationalists (Polish and Ukrainian nationalists slaughtered each others' people with gusto).

    Nobody batted an eyelid at the ethnic cleansing of Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Ruthenians, Bulgarians who found themselves on the wrong side of new borders (tragically, thousands of Jews who had survived the war, by getting themselves designated as "German", were then expelled from Poland and the Sudetenland). Few people wanted the surviving Jews back to reclaim their property, and most of the area was on the point of falling to communist rule.

    Thanks for that, I'll give that a read.

    Anyone got any recommendations for a good book about the American occupation of Japan?
    There's Michael Schaller's American Occupation of Japan.

    MacArthur, whom I regard as something of a dangerous megalomaniac, did have his positive side.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_MacArthur
    ...In 1947, MacArthur invited the founder and first executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Roger Nash Baldwin, to teach the Japanese government and people about civil rights and civil liberties. MacArthur also asked him to do the same for southern Korea, which MacArthur was responsible for when it was under U.S. Army occupation. MacArthur ignored members of the House Un-American Activities Committee and the FBI who believed that Baldwin was a Soviet-loving communist. He wanted a civil liberties expert to quickly introduce western-style civil rights to the Japanese and thought conservatives would take too long. Baldwin helped found the Japan Civil Liberties Union. In a confidential letter to ACLU leaders the anti-militarist and very liberal Baldwin said about MacArthur, "His observation on civil liberties and democracy rank with the best I ever heard from any civilian — and they were incredible from a general."..
    There's also this, but it doesn't seem to be in print ?
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25066295
    Cheers, I have a reader's card for Leeds Uni library, I'll see if they have it.

    EDIT - they do!
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,753

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @jonsopel

    Don’t want to go over the top, but this is absolutely jaw-dropping. Someone who was in the cabinet when legislation on voter ID was agreed and went through parliament acknowledges it WAS an attempt to gerrymander the elections

    https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1658076536350601216

    Said at the conference of loons.
    Which appears to be taking some of its themes from the US right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates
    ...The UK’s low birthrate is the most pressing policy issue of the generation and is caused in part by “cultural Marxism” stripping young people of any hope, a Conservative MP has argued at the start of a populist-tinged conference in London.

    Addressing the National Conservatism gathering, run by a US-based thinktank, Miriam Cates said western countries faced an existential threat from falling reproduction..
    The whole purpose of this well funded conference is to import the craziness of the US right into UK politics. See also recent attempts to rig the franchise (which a former Tory cabinet minister has admitted was gerrymandering). The Tories are utterly toxic now.
    Yes, falling birth rates in the West have long been a preoccupation of the US hard-Right. I don't know if the reason they give for this concern - Christian white folk being outbred by the Muslims - was made explicit on this occasion.
    If you were called in, perhaps from Martian overlords, to organise a society to discourage a sustainably reasonable birth rate without actually making it illegal to have babies you would be well advised to look at our sort of society in the UK right now and nick some policies.

    Having been a bit of an outlier in the last few years we have joined our European friends on the downward slope.

    Among the headline policies:

    Massive house prices + social housing crisis
    Education and training till you are old (ask any doctor)
    Unspoken expectations from employers (up to two is OK)
    'We are all doomed' puts people off
    Two full time jobs - the paid one and the mother/carer one
    A commitment averse culture
    Grandparents a million miles away
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,347

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    O/t but I'm reading Savage Continent, by Keith Lowe, about the aftermath of WWII.

    The sufferings of Central and Eastern Europeans were indescribable.

    Belarus had lost a third of its population in the War, Ukraine, one fifth (on top of the Holodomor), Poland, Yugoslavia, and the Baltic States one sixth, Greece one tenth. Greece, Ukraine, and Poland, the Baltic States, however, were still in the middle of civil wars between nationalists, communists, and rival nationalists (Polish and Ukrainian nationalists slaughtered each others' people with gusto).

    Nobody batted an eyelid at the ethnic cleansing of Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Ruthenians, Bulgarians who found themselves on the wrong side of new borders (tragically, thousands of Jews who had survived the war, by getting themselves designated as "German", were then expelled from Poland and the Sudetenland). Few people wanted the surviving Jews back to reclaim their property, and most of the area was on the point of falling to communist rule.

    Thanks for that, I'll give that a read.

    Anyone got any recommendations for a good book about the American occupation of Japan?
    There's Michael Schaller's American Occupation of Japan.

    MacArthur, whom I regard as something of a dangerous megalomaniac, did have his positive side.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_MacArthur
    ...In 1947, MacArthur invited the founder and first executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Roger Nash Baldwin, to teach the Japanese government and people about civil rights and civil liberties. MacArthur also asked him to do the same for southern Korea, which MacArthur was responsible for when it was under U.S. Army occupation. MacArthur ignored members of the House Un-American Activities Committee and the FBI who believed that Baldwin was a Soviet-loving communist. He wanted a civil liberties expert to quickly introduce western-style civil rights to the Japanese and thought conservatives would take too long. Baldwin helped found the Japan Civil Liberties Union. In a confidential letter to ACLU leaders the anti-militarist and very liberal Baldwin said about MacArthur, "His observation on civil liberties and democracy rank with the best I ever heard from any civilian — and they were incredible from a general."..
    There's also this, but it doesn't seem to be in print ?
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25066295
    Cheers, I have a reader's card for Leeds Uni library, I'll see if they have it.

    EDIT - they do!
    Let us know if it's any good (I haven't read it).
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,266
    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:
    It has the same sugar/fat ratio as breast milk, that is apparently why we like it. I have ice cream nearly every night, go me.
    Technically, it's the same carbohydrates/fat ratio. Breast milk contains relatively little in the way of straight sugar: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5331577/#:~:text=Fructose, glucose, and lactose were,associated with infant body composition.
    Look, Luckyguy is allowed to justify being a tit man any way he needs to.
    Can breast milk be turned into ice cream?
    It is often turned into ice cream, it's just usually cow's breast milk.
    Albeit they do add lots of sugar to it.
    I'm confused - the suggestion earlier that breast milk contains relatively little in the way of straight sugar (and implying that much of the carbohydrate in it isn't stdraight sugar) when in fact any soluble mono- or di-saccharide IS a sugar.

    Unless the milk contains starches etc., in which case it'd be more like sweet wallpaper paste? What am I missing?
    Worrying Carnyx , you seem very au fait with cows udders
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,347
    NYT publishes OpEd defending lynching.

    https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1657890411661197314
    “What if Penny had stood down and done nothing at all? Would everyone — including Neely — have emerged from that subway car unscathed?” asks @DavidAFrench. “We can’t know for certain, and that lack of certainty creates the conditions for violence.”

    I thought this was one of the Pitchbot parodies, but apparently not.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,757

    Andy_JS said:

    More on the Mogg revelation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65599380

    "Jacob Rees-Mogg has suggested the Conservatives introduced voter ID to boost their election chances, but it came "back to bite them".

    The former minister said it had "made it hard for our own voters" to take part in England's local elections.

    The polls on 4 May were the first in Britain where people had to show photo ID, such as a passport or driving licence, to vote.

    Mr Rees-Mogg said the change had "upset a system that worked perfectly well.""

    I hope Mike does a thread header. It certainly warrants debate.
    JRM was speaking in the context of Labour said to be thinking about changes to the electorate, and was warning things did not always work out as hoped. Certainly I'd want to see evidence that newly enfranchised EU citizens would vote Labour.
    Widening the franchise is generally positive I would have thought. It might be cynical in the extreme if the aim is significant electoral advantage. Although I suspect Cameron regrets not reducing the EURef age to 16. If he had he might still be PM.

    On the other hand I find a determined approach to suppressing legitimate voter numbers to be undemocratic. If there was a significant risk of voter fraud that is one thing, but there wasn't? And in the area where voter fraud had been pinpointed, namely postal votes, the whole fraudulent mess was ignored.
    Yes, we said all that on pb. We even warned, where "we" includes Conservative posters, that this might hit Tory voters, though probably most were thinking about the red wall rather than blue rinse.
  • Options
    northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,547
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    O/t but I'm reading Savage Continent, by Keith Lowe, about the aftermath of WWII.

    The sufferings of Central and Eastern Europeans were indescribable.

    Belarus had lost a third of its population in the War, Ukraine, one fifth (on top of the Holodomor), Poland, Yugoslavia, and the Baltic States one sixth, Greece one tenth. Greece, Ukraine, and Poland, the Baltic States, however, were still in the middle of civil wars between nationalists, communists, and rival nationalists (Polish and Ukrainian nationalists slaughtered each others' people with gusto).

    Nobody batted an eyelid at the ethnic cleansing of Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Ruthenians, Bulgarians who found themselves on the wrong side of new borders (tragically, thousands of Jews who had survived the war, by getting themselves designated as "German", were then expelled from Poland and the Sudetenland). Few people wanted the surviving Jews back to reclaim their property, and most of the area was on the point of falling to communist rule.

    Thanks for that, I'll give that a read.

    Anyone got any recommendations for a good book about the American occupation of Japan?
    There's Michael Schaller's American Occupation of Japan.

    MacArthur, whom I regard as something of a dangerous megalomaniac, did have his positive side.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_MacArthur
    ...In 1947, MacArthur invited the founder and first executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Roger Nash Baldwin, to teach the Japanese government and people about civil rights and civil liberties. MacArthur also asked him to do the same for southern Korea, which MacArthur was responsible for when it was under U.S. Army occupation. MacArthur ignored members of the House Un-American Activities Committee and the FBI who believed that Baldwin was a Soviet-loving communist. He wanted a civil liberties expert to quickly introduce western-style civil rights to the Japanese and thought conservatives would take too long. Baldwin helped found the Japan Civil Liberties Union. In a confidential letter to ACLU leaders the anti-militarist and very liberal Baldwin said about MacArthur, "His observation on civil liberties and democracy rank with the best I ever heard from any civilian — and they were incredible from a general."..
    There's also this, but it doesn't seem to be in print ?
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25066295
    Cheers, I have a reader's card for Leeds Uni library, I'll see if they have it.

    EDIT - they do!
    Let us know if it's any good (I haven't read it).
    Will do
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553
    ...
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @jonsopel

    Don’t want to go over the top, but this is absolutely jaw-dropping. Someone who was in the cabinet when legislation on voter ID was agreed and went through parliament acknowledges it WAS an attempt to gerrymander the elections

    https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1658076536350601216

    Said at the conference of loons.
    Which appears to be taking some of its themes from the US right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates
    ...The UK’s low birthrate is the most pressing policy issue of the generation and is caused in part by “cultural Marxism” stripping young people of any hope, a Conservative MP has argued at the start of a populist-tinged conference in London.

    Addressing the National Conservatism gathering, run by a US-based thinktank, Miriam Cates said western countries faced an existential threat from falling reproduction..
    The whole purpose of this well funded conference is to import the craziness of the US right into UK politics. See also recent attempts to rig the franchise (which a former Tory cabinet minister has admitted was gerrymandering). The Tories are utterly toxic now.
    Yes, falling birth rates in the West have long been a preoccupation of the US hard-Right. I don't know if the reason they give for this concern - Christian white folk being outbred by the Muslims - was made explicit on this occasion.
    More a case of atheist white folk being outbred by Muslims, Christian evangelicals also have lots of children and Catholics used to have more too
    Dear, oh Lord!

    Atheists, go forth and multiply.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    edited May 2023
    On topic.

    “The real problem they’ve got is that Johnson looks like a vote loser as we can see in the chart from YouGov.”

    But he was always marmite before he became leader, so his distractors would always make the case he’s rubbish, avoid, but it didn’t stop him getting the whomping wins at leader contests, ballot boxes - so he still has the record as being the king of getting best electoral results for Tories. He has yet to fail - therefore you can’t win any argument with his backers on Twitter or anywhere if he has yet to fail.

    The other problem is Mike, despite everything thrown at him about Partygate, Patterson, Wallpaper, Peppa Pig, when ousted by the parliamentary party, not the membership, the Tories were in a much better place in polls than they are now. That’s another fact his supporters can hit back over the net at you, you can’t return, that wins the point. When he was PM, this time last year, the Tories were not in such a bad place in polls for mid term government.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,707
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:
    It has the same sugar/fat ratio as breast milk, that is apparently why we like it. I have ice cream nearly every night, go me.
    Technically, it's the same carbohydrates/fat ratio. Breast milk contains relatively little in the way of straight sugar: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5331577/#:~:text=Fructose, glucose, and lactose were,associated with infant body composition.
    Look, Luckyguy is allowed to justify being a tit man any way he needs to.
    Can breast milk be turned into ice cream?
    It is often turned into ice cream, it's just usually cow's breast milk.
    Albeit they do add lots of sugar to it.
    I'm confused - the suggestion earlier that breast milk contains relatively little in the way of straight sugar (and implying that much of the carbohydrate in it isn't stdraight sugar) when in fact any soluble mono- or di-saccharide IS a sugar.

    Unless the milk contains starches etc., in which case it'd be more like sweet wallpaper paste? What am I missing?
    Worrying Carnyx , you seem very au fait with cows udders
    He's teat-total.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,347

    On topic.

    ...The other problem is Mike, despite everything thrown at him about Partygate, Patterson, Wallpaper, Peppa Pig, when ousted by the parliamentary party, not the membership, the Tories were in a much better place in polls than they are now. That’s another fact his supporters can hit back over the net at you, you can’t return, that wins the point. When he was PM, this time last year, the Tories were not in such a bad place in polls for mid term government.

    The other problem is that a return for Boris would see a series of massive gambles on his part, ahead of the next election, which would likely end very badly indeed for the country.

    If your priority is only to see the Tory party destroyed, then it's not an awful prospect. But should you place any value at all on the wellbeing of the nation, it's rather alarming (albeit highly unlikely to happen).
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    I'd be OK with some limited extensions in local elections for permanent residents, but certainly not for national elections.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,357

    On topic.

    “The real problem they’ve got is that Johnson looks like a vote loser as we can see in the chart from YouGov.”

    But he was always marmite before he became leader, so his distractors would always make the case he’s rubbish, avoid, but it didn’t stop him getting the whomping wins at leader contests, ballot boxes - so he still has the record as being the king of getting best electoral results for Tories. He has yet to fail - therefore you can’t win any argument with his backers on Twitter or anywhere if he had yet to fail.

    The other problem is Mike, despite everything thrown at him about Partygate, Patterson, Wallpaper, Peppa Pig, when ousted by the parliamentary party, not the membership, the Tories were in a much better place in polls than they are now. That’s another fact his supporters can hit back over the net at you, you can’t return, that wins the point. When he was PM, this time last year, the Tories were not in such a bad place in polls for mid term government.

    The parliamentary Tory party was suffering from a bout of mass hysteria when they got rid of him.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,936

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,194

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:
    It has the same sugar/fat ratio as breast milk, that is apparently why we like it. I have ice cream nearly every night, go me.
    Technically, it's the same carbohydrates/fat ratio. Breast milk contains relatively little in the way of straight sugar: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5331577/#:~:text=Fructose, glucose, and lactose were,associated with infant body composition.
    Look, Luckyguy is allowed to justify being a tit man any way he needs to.
    Can breast milk be turned into ice cream?
    It is often turned into ice cream, it's just usually cow's breast milk.
    Albeit they do add lots of sugar to it.
    I'm confused - the suggestion earlier that breast milk contains relatively little in the way of straight sugar (and implying that much of the carbohydrate in it isn't stdraight sugar) when in fact any soluble mono- or di-saccharide IS a sugar.

    Unless the milk contains starches etc., in which case it'd be more like sweet wallpaper paste? What am I missing?
    Worrying Carnyx , you seem very au fait with cows udders
    He's teat-total.
    Only before 1800.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,707
    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,897

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    I think you can make a valid case for or against
    extending the franchise to permanent residents, who have made the commitment to live, work and pay taxes in the UK, and arguably a better case than non resident citizens and Commonwealth citizens, who currently do have the right to vote.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380



    Whatever else you can say about voter ID, it doesn’t change the franchise and it’s the norm in most non-Anglosphere democracies.

    Yes, because ID cards are the norm in nearly all of them. It's inconsistent to approve of voter ID and disapprove of ID cards.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324
    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    Ireland is a special case, in that Irish citizens are not considered aliens.

    Now, there are many reasons for this, and one can make a good case that we should not continue it.

    But I'm not sure that's a can of worms I would open right now.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,757
    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    Could not a clinical psychologist advise on stress-reduction techniques, or a friendly GP prescribe valium or whatever is current?
  • Options
    maxhmaxh Posts: 863

    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
    Really?
    I’ve been: a civil servant (local and central government); a journalist; a teacher; an engineer; a sole trader
    None have required me to recall five years of knowledge under timed conditions with no possibility of an extension and no ability to improve my work.
    Am I missing something?
  • Options
    pm215pm215 Posts: 947

    maxh said:


    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
    Certainly some jobs require performance under significant stress. And some jobs require a certain level of education. But the two sets are far from perfectly overlapping. My job, as an example, certainly needs the kind of skills typically tested and honed through a degree level education (and often job ads mandate having a degree), but it is far from being stressful, and I rarely have to think on my feet. Conversely I'm sure there are jobs which you could walk into without any formal qualifications but which are way more day to day stress than I could handle.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553
    Nigelb said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    More on the Mogg revelation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65599380

    "Jacob Rees-Mogg has suggested the Conservatives introduced voter ID to boost their election chances, but it came "back to bite them".

    The former minister said it had "made it hard for our own voters" to take part in England's local elections...

    I wonder what it was the turned him against the wizard wheeze he voted for ?

    Getting spanked in the locals?

    A euphemism I hadn't come across.
    It might be something administered to JRM by Nanny?
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060
    FF43 said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    I think you can make a valid case for or against
    extending the franchise to permanent residents, who have made the commitment to live, work and pay taxes in the UK, and arguably a better case than non resident citizens and Commonwealth citizens, who currently do have the right to vote.
    The latter I would remove. The former I would suggest should lose their franchise after a certain amount of time - say 5 years. But it would be automatically returned if they returend to settle in the UK again as British citizens.

    Of course you would need exceptions for long term work postings but otherwise I see no objection to suspending the franchise for those who move out of the country long term.

    I see no argument, nor precedent, for giving the franchise to those who do not intend to become British citizens.

    To be honest I think it is probably time to also end the reciprocal arrangements with the Irish given they are an entirely seperate country
  • Options
    maxhmaxh Posts: 863
    edited May 2023

    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    Could not a clinical psychologist advise on stress-reduction techniques, or a friendly GP prescribe valium or whatever is current?
    The student in question has worked with a clinical psychologist for years - it has helped (he used to struggle to remain in class at all - now he is calm, confident and resilient in most situations).

    Prescription medication is an interesting idea - I imagine GPs would be reluctant to give Valium to a minor but it might be the best answer right now.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060
    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    I agree. As I have already said on the previous thread.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @jonsopel

    Don’t want to go over the top, but this is absolutely jaw-dropping. Someone who was in the cabinet when legislation on voter ID was agreed and went through parliament acknowledges it WAS an attempt to gerrymander the elections

    https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1658076536350601216

    Said at the conference of loons.
    Which appears to be taking some of its themes from the US right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates
    ...The UK’s low birthrate is the most pressing policy issue of the generation and is caused in part by “cultural Marxism” stripping young people of any hope, a Conservative MP has argued at the start of a populist-tinged conference in London.

    Addressing the National Conservatism gathering, run by a US-based thinktank, Miriam Cates said western countries faced an existential threat from falling reproduction..
    The whole purpose of this well funded conference is to import the craziness of the US right into UK politics. See also recent attempts to rig the franchise (which a former Tory cabinet minister has admitted was gerrymandering). The Tories are utterly toxic now.
    Yes, falling birth rates in the West have long been a preoccupation of the US hard-Right. I don't know if the reason they give for this concern - Christian white folk being outbred by the Muslims - was made explicit on this occasion.
    More a case of atheist white folk being outbred by Muslims, Christian evangelicals also have lots of children and Catholics used to have more too
    Dear, oh Lord!

    Atheists, go forth and multiply.
    Outside of a few small groups (like Ultra Orthodox Jews) there is bugger all correlation between religiosity and TFR.

    Italy, for example, is way more religious than the UK (73% say religion is important vs 25% in the UK), and yet has a much worse TFR.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324

    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    I agree. As I have already said on the previous thread.
    (Leaving aside Ireland for now) it is certainly indefensible that a Commonwealth citizen can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060
    maxh said:

    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
    Really?
    I’ve been: a civil servant (local and central government); a journalist; a teacher; an engineer; a sole trader
    None have required me to recall five years of knowledge under timed conditions with no possibility of an extension and no ability to improve my work.
    Am I missing something?
    Mine does. With the added complication that if I get it wrong it can cost millions of pounds and possibly lives. Now that is an extreme case but many, many jobs require people to make rapid decisions based on accumulated knowledge and on the spot calculations with little or no time to reference either external information sources nor other experts. In the case of an engineer, sadly, time is money and he will get little sympathy fro any employer for being unable to work under pressure.

    In the end the world is not fair. Work is sometimes not fair whilst at the same time being absolutely necessary. Yes it is good to identify those who are not able to cope and move them onto a different path where, quite possibly, they will shine. But that certainly isn't a reason to tear up the education system.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553
    rcs1000 said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @jonsopel

    Don’t want to go over the top, but this is absolutely jaw-dropping. Someone who was in the cabinet when legislation on voter ID was agreed and went through parliament acknowledges it WAS an attempt to gerrymander the elections

    https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1658076536350601216

    Said at the conference of loons.
    Which appears to be taking some of its themes from the US right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates
    ...The UK’s low birthrate is the most pressing policy issue of the generation and is caused in part by “cultural Marxism” stripping young people of any hope, a Conservative MP has argued at the start of a populist-tinged conference in London.

    Addressing the National Conservatism gathering, run by a US-based thinktank, Miriam Cates said western countries faced an existential threat from falling reproduction..
    The whole purpose of this well funded conference is to import the craziness of the US right into UK politics. See also recent attempts to rig the franchise (which a former Tory cabinet minister has admitted was gerrymandering). The Tories are utterly toxic now.
    Yes, falling birth rates in the West have long been a preoccupation of the US hard-Right. I don't know if the reason they give for this concern - Christian white folk being outbred by the Muslims - was made explicit on this occasion.
    More a case of atheist white folk being outbred by Muslims, Christian evangelicals also have lots of children and Catholics used to have more too
    Dear, oh Lord!

    Atheists, go forth and multiply.
    Outside of a few small groups (like Ultra Orthodox Jews) there is bugger all correlation between religiosity and TFR.

    Italy, for example, is way more religious than the UK (73% say religion is important vs 25% in the UK), and yet has a much worse TFR.
    Are you suggesting HYUFD's post was not entirely factual? Heavens above!
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,745

    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
    Many jobs do require knowledge to be produced under severe stress, but very many don't. At the moment, the GCSE system means that everyone has to try and squeeze through the high-stress gateway, even though it's a poor fit for who some people are as people and what their future plans are.

    We sort of recognise that post-16, when A Levels and BTEC courses provide differently-styled pathways through learning. Though for maths and English, we make students who failed GCSE first time round keep repeating the same thing.

    There's a legit question about when to start having separate pathways, because that inevitably closes some options off for some people. There's also a legit question about how far equivalence should go, because some schools did use vocational courses inappropriately to boost their headline results and that needed to stop.

    But the current setup also wastes people's time and talent, and that's both unkind and something the country can't afford.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,436
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:
    It has the same sugar/fat ratio as breast milk, that is apparently why we like it. I have ice cream nearly every night, go me.
    Technically, it's the same carbohydrates/fat ratio. Breast milk contains relatively little in the way of straight sugar: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5331577/#:~:text=Fructose, glucose, and lactose were,associated with infant body composition.
    Look, Luckyguy is allowed to justify being a tit man any way he needs to.
    Can breast milk be turned into ice cream?
    It is often turned into ice cream, it's just usually cow's breast milk.
    Albeit they do add lots of sugar to it.
    I'm confused - the suggestion earlier that breast milk contains relatively little in the way of straight sugar (and implying that much of the carbohydrate in it isn't stdraight sugar) when in fact any soluble mono- or di-saccharide IS a sugar.

    Unless the milk contains starches etc., in which case it'd be more like sweet wallpaper paste? What am I missing?
    Worrying Carnyx , you seem very au fait with cows udders
    The specialty of oldest restaurant in Berlin, Zur Letzten Instanz, is stuffed cow udder. I did not partake.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,603
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    I agree. As I have already said on the previous thread.
    (Leaving aside Ireland for now) it is certainly indefensible that a Commonwealth citizen can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    Reparations, innit?

    I like to think this is the explanation for Johnson.

    (Not in the sense of undoing harm done to Commonwealth countries or that Johnson was voted in to do great things for the Commonwealth, but... well, it's only fair that commonwealth citizens get to meddle in our politics and help install unsuitable leaders, for a change, is it not? :wink: )
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    I agree. As I have already said on the previous thread.
    (Leaving aside Ireland for now) it is certainly indefensible that a Commonwealth citizen can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    There was an allegation that the Conservatives in 1992 optimised the opportunity, especially with South Africans with little or no connection to Blighty. Now that may be an urban myth as I am unable to reference the allegation. Or my memory is playing tricks on me.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    Mogg's admission today has to be very serious for the government. Let's see what Starmer can do with it.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    Farooq said:

    It’s funny how JRM is no longer seen as a lying toerag now that he says something that is useful to his former accusers

    Who, specifically?
    Or is this another example of imagined hypocrisy?
    There have been approving comments from people who haven’t previously had much time for him. “Lying toerag” was my own phrase but suspect not too far from the truth of their opinion of him.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,613
    edited May 2023
    pm215 said:

    maxh said:


    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
    Certainly some jobs require performance under significant stress. And some jobs require a certain level of education. But the two sets are far from perfectly overlapping. My job, as an example, certainly needs the kind of skills typically tested and honed through a degree level education (and often job ads mandate having a degree), but it is far from being stressful, and I rarely have to think on my feet. Conversely I'm sure there are jobs which you could walk into without any formal qualifications but which are way more day to day stress than I could handle.
    I was brilliant at exams. Quite enjoyed them. Didn't have to work too hard in preparation for them. They were an enjoyable three hours doing puzzles (maths) or developing an argument (geography etc), preceded by a few weeks of no homework in which the physical effort of writing or producing any measurable results was required. And I always did pretty well. An observer of me at 14 or 16 or 18 might have thought measured by the metrics of exam success I was destined for great things.

    Real life however turned out to be rather more difficult than just knowing stuff, and stressful situations in real life are rather harder and more unpleasant to deal with than a jolly jaunt through an A Level. Regrettably, I think what school taught me was that life was pretty easy and you don't need to try particularly hard and you'll still do well, which probably wasn't the best lesson to take.

    I mean, I've done ok. I'm in a job which I find interesting and which pays me pretty well and in which I am dry and warm and secure and which affords me little moments to come and argue good-naturedly with you lot. But most of my mates at school, despite doing in most cases less well at school, have done rather better with their careers, and in all honesty I don't envy them one bit as their jobs strike me as a mix of unexciting white collar tasks coupled with terrifying levels of responsibility. I can't help wondering whether I'd have been considerably better suited to learning a trade.

  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162

    It’s funny how JRM is no longer seen as a lying toerag now that he says something that is useful to his former accusers

    No idea what he has said but he is more a condescending, over privileged and pompous relic than a lying toerag.....
    HuffPo chose to interpret a comment he made as an admission that the voter ID was designed to suppress voters for non-Tories
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,484
    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,745

    Farooq said:

    It’s funny how JRM is no longer seen as a lying toerag now that he says something that is useful to his former accusers

    Who, specifically?
    Or is this another example of imagined hypocrisy?
    There have been approving comments from people who haven’t previously had much time for him. “Lying toerag” was my own phrase but suspect not too far from the truth of their opinion of him.
    Plenty of reasons to dislike Mogg that have nothing to do with whether he tells the truth or not. For me, "ghastly hypocrite" always got closer to the mark.

    In that sense, the "oh you believe him now" thing worked better with someone like Dominic Cummings. People who should have known better did lap up his gossip about Boris once DC left the government, and that was foolish.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    This was a Telegraph report, so it’s quite possible you are getting worked up about nothing, indeed I thought that they had briefed it was not happening.
    I ignored it when it was a Telegraph report and concentrated on the argument about whether or not the franchise should be extended to 16 year olds which is more of a philosophical debate. But today the allegation has been repeated by the Guardian - a paper which I have a lot more time for journalistically - so I am forced to take it seriously.
  • Options
    maxhmaxh Posts: 863
    edited May 2023

    maxh said:

    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
    Really?
    I’ve been: a civil servant (local and central government); a journalist; a teacher; an engineer; a sole trader
    None have required me to recall five years of knowledge under timed conditions with no possibility of an extension and no ability to improve my work.
    Am I missing something?
    Mine does. With the added complication that if I get it wrong it can cost millions of pounds and possibly lives. Now that is an extreme case but many, many jobs require people to make rapid decisions based on accumulated knowledge and on the spot calculations with little or no time to reference either external information sources nor other experts. In the case of an engineer, sadly, time is money and he will get little sympathy fro any employer for being unable to work under pressure.

    In the end the world is not fair. Work is sometimes not fair whilst at the same time being absolutely necessary. Yes it is good to identify those who are not able to cope and move them onto a different path where, quite possibly, they will shine. But that certainly isn't a reason to tear up the education system.
    Hmmm…I can’t comment on your particular job (other than to say it sounds rewarding). But I’m not convinced by the picture you paint, particularly “little or no time to reference external sources”.

    Many high pressure jobs require an ability to solve novel problems under pressure, but I’m not convinced many require the flawless recall of facts without reference to external sources.

    I would have much more confidence in an engineer who was prepared to reference a specific set of tolerances, say, over one who gave me an immediate response.

    Perhaps my original post was unclear, though. It’s not any forms of stress that will cause this person to underperform; it is the specific case of exams. He’s perfectly okay, for example, leading a room full of students.

    ETA: Also, if he has basic facts in front of him, he’s okay doing the ‘novel problems’ bit.

    I can see the point for a niche set of jobs, but not for an exam which is a general gateway to the world of professional careers. Fail maths and a whole lot of doors close.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,707
    maxh said:

    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
    Really?
    I’ve been: a civil servant (local and central government); a journalist; a teacher; an engineer; a sole trader
    None have required me to recall five years of knowledge under timed conditions with no possibility of an extension and no ability to improve my work.
    Am I missing something?
    You would know best what the triggers are and whether the rigours of various careers would rule him out of them. I would be concerned that it might not be that predictable.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,484

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    This was a Telegraph report, so it’s quite possible you are getting worked up about nothing, indeed I thought that they had briefed it was not happening.
    I ignored it when it was a Telegraph report and concentrated on the argument about whether or not the franchise should be extended to 16 year olds which is more of a philosophical debate. But today the allegation has been repeated by the Guardian - a paper which I have a lot more time for journalistically - so I am forced to take it seriously.
    This is the Guardian's report

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/what-are-labours-plans-for-giving-foreign-nationals-the-right-to-vote?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,276
    edited May 2023
    Looks like slowing down on the India trade deal might have paid dividends. The Indian motoring industry are now willing to countenance dropping the 70%-100% tariffs on car imports, although with a quota:

    https://www.livemint.com/auto-news/siam-says-zero-duty-acceptable-on-imported-cars-from-uk-if-the-need-arises-11684155557565.html

    That, together with the phasing out of tarriffs on Scotch, already announced, would make this a pretty decent deal for Britain, with a usually hugely-protectionist country.

    (Of course, the biggest benificiary of this would be, er, Tata)
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162

    eek said:

    One less Brexiteer for the Beeb to get on QT or Newsnight. I couldn't even be arsed with a sardonic 'vaguely credible'.




    Why are right-wingers always doing the country down? Pessimism is a cancer that is eating away at the core of conservatism.
    Declinism is the latest version of the British Disease from the 70s.

    The only thing Brexit has done is revealed that the heart of Declinism is the Treasury and that it needs to be destroyed with it's contradictory demands separated out so the arguments are visible in public.

    Case in point Vancouver and Leeds are roughly the same population.

    Since 1980 Vancouver has built a 3 line underground Metro system. Leeds has done nothing because the Treasury instantly blocks any plans and all the money.
    One one hand, the Treasury is one of the few British institutions that “works”, in that acts as a bulwark for “sound money” and against general profligacy, regardless of what the electoral system throws up.

    On the other hand, it maintains much of the economy in a death-grip, as your Leeds example shows.
    The issue is that many local schemes are overspeced and padded with political pork. (The same as national schemes TBF).

    The Treasury vetoes them because they can’t force the proponents to accept more modest proposals

  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,745

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    The difficulty Braverman has with the level of immigration is that she is in government and immigration is part of her brief. If she really dislikes government policy in that area, she really ought to resign.

    (Who was the minister who called for Bozza to resign, but decided not to resign herself... oh bloody hell it was Braverman, wasn't it?)

    “I don’t want to resign because I have that duty and we need an Attorney in government”

    Attorney General SuellaBraverman says that, despite calling for the Prime Minister to resign, she will continue in her role.


    https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1544804556588158977
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,484

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    I understand that to qualify they have to have 5 years settled status and be a taxpayer, but on reading more on the subject I do believe Starmer has opened a can of worms
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,839
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    I agree. As I have already said on the previous thread.
    (Leaving aside Ireland for now) it is certainly indefensible that a Commonwealth citizen can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    You could have someone with a British passport who can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    Is that any different?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869
    If this is the sort of thing Labour tries to pull in opposition, what do you think they'll do in Government?
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060

    EU Commissioner Timmermans on the benefits of English as a lingua franca:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_23_2731

    By the way, this is the first time in human history that we have in Lingua Franca that is not just for the elites. For the first time in human history, we have a global Lingua Franca that transcends societal layers. Thanks to the internet, thanks to other developments, thanks to the predominance of Anglo-Saxon culture, English is an instrument for all. And this is the first time, in human history, that we have a true Lingua Franca for all: bad English.

    I like his sense of humour. And of course he is right. Bad English rules. :)
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,839

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    Whether or not other countries do the same thing is strictly irrelevant. Sometimes (just sometimes) everyone else is wrong about something. The task is to decide on the merits of the case.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324
    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    I agree. As I have already said on the previous thread.
    (Leaving aside Ireland for now) it is certainly indefensible that a Commonwealth citizen can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    You could have someone with a British passport who can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    Is that any different?
    Yes.

    They are citizens of the United Kingdom.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,839

    If this is the sort of thing Labour tries to pull in opposition, what do you think they'll do in Government?

    Hopefully, exactly this
  • Options
    maxhmaxh Posts: 863

    maxh said:

    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
    Really?
    I’ve been: a civil servant (local and central government); a journalist; a teacher; an engineer; a sole trader
    None have required me to recall five years of knowledge under timed conditions with no possibility of an extension and no ability to improve my work.
    Am I missing something?
    You would know best what the triggers are and whether the rigours of various careers would rule him out of them. I would be concerned that it might not be that predictable.
    I would definitely acknowledge that he will have some weaknesses in comparison to someone who has not experienced the same childhood trauma.

    But he also has strengths that few 16 year olds have - he has had to overcome his demons in a way most of us don’t need to do until a bit more grizzled, which has given him an emotional maturity that is missing from a lot of school leavers.

    He would absolutely be an asset to many professional organisations, but likely won’t get the chance to show that, or at least will have to work harder again to overcome the result he is likely to get this summer.
  • Options
    FlannerFlanner Posts: 409

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I wondered whether news that Boris has brought a house in Oxford could be a sign he's expecting to lose Uxbridge and South Ruislip either after being recalled following the Commons Privileges committee report or at Election 24 - And is eyeing up a nice, safe Conservative seat in rural Oxfordshire?

    Quite possibly. Uxbridge is in the top 100 Labour target seats and will almost certainly go Labour on current polls.

    However Henley is not ultra safe Tory now either, on May 4th. Indeed the LDs won a landslide victory in South Oxfordshire on 4th May winning 21 seats while the Tories collapsed to just 1 councillor.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2023/england/councils/E07000179

    Even somewhere like Walsall or Dudley or Basildon or Dartford where the Tories held control of the council this month would be safer for Boris now than Henley (albeit less posh and glamorous)
    A friend lives in Brightwell (the Oxfordshire village where Boris is heading) and says there are indeed extensive preparations being made, not least a police car that drives up and down all day - inevitable, I suppose. The culture of the area is very LibDem - prosperous, nice, well-educated and socially liberal. Not naturally populist, as HYUFD says - don't know if Henley is different,
    Yes, the Henley constituency is broadly like that. Thame and Henley are the two largest towns. John Howell (current MP and, as such, Johnson's successor) has a comfortable majority but is not particularly liked. If the LibDems throw resources into the constituency they have a chance of taking it; if the candidate is Johnson, even more so.

    Expect to see this bar-chart used repeatedly over the next few years:


    John Howell announced in April this year he would not be standing for re-election in Henley
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,839
    rcs1000 said:

    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    I agree. As I have already said on the previous thread.
    (Leaving aside Ireland for now) it is certainly indefensible that a Commonwealth citizen can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    You could have someone with a British passport who can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    Is that any different?
    Yes.

    They are citizens of the United Kingdom.
    So all the stuff about here for a matter of weeks, paying taxes, intentions... all that stuff was irrelevant really. You just added it in for, what, sophistry?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,357
    Farooq said:

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    Whether or not other countries do the same thing is strictly irrelevant. Sometimes (just sometimes) everyone else is wrong about something. The task is to decide on the merits of the case.
    If you take your view to its logical conclusion, then we should abolish the concept of citizenship altogether in favour of residency and turn the national goverment into a kind of supersized local council.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869
    carnforth said:

    Looks like slowing down on the India trade deal might have paid dividends. The Indian motoring industry are now willing to countenance dropping the 70%-100% tariffs on car imports, although with a quota:

    https://www.livemint.com/auto-news/siam-says-zero-duty-acceptable-on-imported-cars-from-uk-if-the-need-arises-11684155557565.html

    That, together with the phasing out of tarriffs on Scotch, already announced, would make this a pretty decent deal for Britain, with a usually hugely-protectionist country.

    (Of course, the biggest benificiary of this would be, er, Tata)

    I'm a bit sceptical.

    I think Modi and the BJP are a bit like to us what the ERG are to the EU.

    They only want a trade deal with the UK if they can sell it as a defeat for their former colonial rulers, hence all the stuff about repatriation of the Crown Jewels etc., and this is on top of his needless desecration /destruction of anything in India built between 1750 and 1950, includings Lutyens architectural works in New Delhi, which plenty of his own people have misgivings about.

    Modi's way of operating is to whip people up and get them angry about stuff.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,995
    The nationalist Tory right currently planning for a decade in opposition in the full glare of publicity really is quite a thing, isn't it? Who on earth inside the Tory party is in a position to stop them, though?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,357
    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    I agree. As I have already said on the previous thread.
    (Leaving aside Ireland for now) it is certainly indefensible that a Commonwealth citizen can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    You could have someone with a British passport who can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    Is that any different?
    Yes.

    They are citizens of the United Kingdom.
    So all the stuff about here for a matter of weeks, paying taxes, intentions... all that stuff was irrelevant really. You just added it in for, what, sophistry?
    No, it wasn't irrelevant. There's clearly a difference between a returning citizen and somebody who had no prior connection to the UK turning up and voting.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,995
    The Tory nationalist right currently planning for a decade or more in the wilderness right out in the open really is a sight to behold. Who inside the party is going to tell them how damaging this all looks?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869
    Cookie said:

    pm215 said:

    maxh said:


    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    But many professional jobs require just that. If the issue cannot be solved, the young man needs to be guided toward a future career without these sorts of challenges.
    Certainly some jobs require performance under significant stress. And some jobs require a certain level of education. But the two sets are far from perfectly overlapping. My job, as an example, certainly needs the kind of skills typically tested and honed through a degree level education (and often job ads mandate having a degree), but it is far from being stressful, and I rarely have to think on my feet. Conversely I'm sure there are jobs which you could walk into without any formal qualifications but which are way more day to day stress than I could handle.
    I was brilliant at exams. Quite enjoyed them. Didn't have to work too hard in preparation for them. They were an enjoyable three hours doing puzzles (maths) or developing an argument (geography etc), preceded by a few weeks of no homework in which the physical effort of writing or producing any measurable results was required. And I always did pretty well. An observer of me at 14 or 16 or 18 might have thought measured by the metrics of exam success I was destined for great things.

    Real life however turned out to be rather more difficult than just knowing stuff, and stressful situations in real life are rather harder and more unpleasant to deal with than a jolly jaunt through an A Level. Regrettably, I think what school taught me was that life was pretty easy and you don't need to try particularly hard and you'll still do well, which probably wasn't the best lesson to take.

    I mean, I've done ok. I'm in a job which I find interesting and which pays me pretty well and in which I am dry and warm and secure and which affords me little moments to come and argue good-naturedly with you lot. But most of my mates at school, despite doing in most cases less well at school, have done rather better with their careers, and in all honesty I don't envy them one bit as their jobs strike me as a mix of unexciting white collar tasks coupled with terrifying levels of responsibility. I can't help wondering whether I'd have been considerably better suited to learning a trade.

    Know what you mean
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Farooq said:

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    Whether or not other countries do the same thing is strictly irrelevant. Sometimes (just sometimes) everyone else is wrong about something. The task is to decide on the merits of the case.
    If you take your view to its logical conclusion, then we should abolish the concept of citizenship altogether in favour of residency and turn the national goverment into a kind of supersized local council.
    One would indeed have to ask what the point of citizenship actually is, if all of its benefits are automatically granted to any resident in the UK.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    (That's not quite true: British citizens are allowed to vote in Irish national elections, albeit not in their Presidential, on the basis that Irish citizens don't get to vote for the Monarch.)
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,839

    Farooq said:

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    Whether or not other countries do the same thing is strictly irrelevant. Sometimes (just sometimes) everyone else is wrong about something. The task is to decide on the merits of the case.
    If you take your view to its logical conclusion, then we should abolish the concept of citizenship altogether in favour of residency and turn the national goverment into a kind of supersized local council.
    I don't agree with the characterisation in the latter half of your post about "supersized local council"... national government is qualitatively different to that. But otherwise... yes. Exactly. If someone is here legally for a period of time, say, five years in the last ten (I'm flexible on details) then yeah, give them the vote.
    Flip side, if someone's been living in another country for a period (e.g. >5 years in the last ten) then they shouldn't have a vote here.

    If you live here legally or if you don't, that's what's important in my mind.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162



    Whatever else you can say about voter ID, it doesn’t change the franchise and it’s the norm in most non-Anglosphere democracies.

    Yes, because ID cards are the norm in nearly all of them. It's inconsistent to approve of voter ID and disapprove of ID cards.
    It’s rarely ID cards that people object to, it’s the way that successive governments have tried to implement them

    A dumb piece of plastic would be fine.

    Giving the police the right to demand it is problematic. Linking a massive database behind it is even worse. Especially when just about anyone* could access it

    * an exaggeration obviously
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060
    Farooq said:

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    Whether or not other countries do the same thing is strictly irrelevant. Sometimes (just sometimes) everyone else is wrong about something. The task is to decide on the merits of the case.
    But in this case they are not wrong and the reasons are clear. If someone is unwilling to take citizenship (and I would accept we need to make that a lot cheaper) then they are not making a commitment to the country. So why should they be able to vote on its future? Every other developed country seems to recognise this. I have yet to see any cogent argument against it.

  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,753
    "In apparent criticism of academics and other advisers, Braverman said Conservatives should be “sceptical of self-appointed gurus, experts and elites who think they know best what is in the public’s interest, even when that public is quite certain that they need something different from what those experts are proposing."

    Well said, private school, Cambridge educated, barrister, MP, Home Secretary. Don't sit on the fence about what is wrong with elites and experts.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    carnforth said:

    Looks like slowing down on the India trade deal might have paid dividends. The Indian motoring industry are now willing to countenance dropping the 70%-100% tariffs on car imports, although with a quota:

    https://www.livemint.com/auto-news/siam-says-zero-duty-acceptable-on-imported-cars-from-uk-if-the-need-arises-11684155557565.html

    That, together with the phasing out of tarriffs on Scotch, already announced, would make this a pretty decent deal for Britain, with a usually hugely-protectionist country.

    (Of course, the biggest benificiary of this would be, er, Tata)

    I'm a bit sceptical.

    I think Modi and the BJP are a bit like to us what the ERG are to the EU.

    They only want a trade deal with the UK if they can sell it as a defeat for their former colonial rulers, hence all the stuff about repatriation of the Crown Jewels etc., and this is on top of his needless desecration /destruction of anything in India built between 1750 and 1950, includings Lutyens architectural works in New Delhi, which plenty of his own people have misgivings about.

    Modi's way of operating is to whip people up and get them angry about stuff.
    He doesn't want to get his own back just on us. He wants to take swipe at India's Muslim rulers, too..
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    I understand that to qualify they have to have 5 years settled status and be a taxpayer, but on reading more on the subject I do believe Starmer has opened a can of worms
    Personally, I would allow them (so long as they met the tests) to vote in local elections, but not national.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869
    Andy_JS said:

    Mogg's admission today has to be very serious for the government. Let's see what Starmer can do with it.

    Sigh. What's he done now?
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060



    Whatever else you can say about voter ID, it doesn’t change the franchise and it’s the norm in most non-Anglosphere democracies.

    Yes, because ID cards are the norm in nearly all of them. It's inconsistent to approve of voter ID and disapprove of ID cards.
    It’s rarely ID cards that people object to, it’s the way that successive governments have tried to implement them

    A dumb piece of plastic would be fine.

    Giving the police the right to demand it is problematic. Linking a massive database behind it is even worse. Especially when just about anyone* could access it

    * an exaggeration obviously
    Not necessarily too much of an exaggeration seeing who was able to access data under the RIPA legislation
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,839

    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    I agree. As I have already said on the previous thread.
    (Leaving aside Ireland for now) it is certainly indefensible that a Commonwealth citizen can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    You could have someone with a British passport who can come to the UK for a matter of weeks, pay no taxes, have no intention of permanently residing in the country, and yet have the right to vote in elections.
    Is that any different?
    Yes.

    They are citizens of the United Kingdom.
    So all the stuff about here for a matter of weeks, paying taxes, intentions... all that stuff was irrelevant really. You just added it in for, what, sophistry?
    No, it wasn't irrelevant. There's clearly a difference between a returning citizen and somebody who had no prior connection to the UK turning up and voting.
    Yes. The colour of their passport.
    I maintain that there is a difference and it's entirely unimportant.

    FWIW I don't think either case should qualify for a vote. If you've been living in Spain for 20 years, and you rock up in April expecting to vote in May, tough shit. You should have to wait.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,703
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It's an absolute disgrace! How dare the Labour Party float some ideas, including about changing the electorate, in advance of writing its manifesto for the next GE! Bring back the days when we could all say the Labour Party has no policies! The cheek of it - discussing policy matters and asking members for their views!

    Alternatively, people could chill out and reserve judgement and vitriol until they see which of the ideas currently being kicked about, on all manner of things, actually make it into Labour's manifesto.

    The fact they are even considering extending the franchise in the way suggested to non citizens is indeed a disgrace. Any honest politician (with apologies for the obvious oxymoron) would not look twice at the idea.
    Is it a disgrace that the Irish and Commonwealth citizens get to vote if they live here!?

    Ireland is a special case, in that Irish citizens are not considered aliens.

    Now, there are many reasons for this, and one can make a good case that we should not continue it.

    But I'm not sure that's a can of worms I would open right now.
    You'd instantly disenfranchise everyone in Northern Ireland who wanted to be Irish and not British, which would atomise one of the key compromises of the Good Friday Agreement.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,484

    It’s funny how JRM is no longer seen as a lying toerag now that he says something that is useful to his former accusers

    No idea what he has said but he is more a condescending, over privileged and pompous relic than a lying toerag.....
    HuffPo chose to interpret a comment he made as an admission that the voter ID was designed to suppress voters for non-Tories
    Of course centrist Dad twitter has run with it too.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,357
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    Whether or not other countries do the same thing is strictly irrelevant. Sometimes (just sometimes) everyone else is wrong about something. The task is to decide on the merits of the case.
    If you take your view to its logical conclusion, then we should abolish the concept of citizenship altogether in favour of residency and turn the national goverment into a kind of supersized local council.
    I don't agree with the characterisation in the latter half of your post about "supersized local council"... national government is qualitatively different to that. But otherwise... yes. Exactly. If someone is here legally for a period of time, say, five years in the last ten (I'm flexible on details) then yeah, give them the vote.
    Flip side, if someone's been living in another country for a period (e.g. >5 years in the last ten) then they shouldn't have a vote here.

    If you live here legally or if you don't, that's what's important in my mind.
    In what ways do you think migration to the UK should be limited?
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,348
    edited May 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    Mogg's admission today has to be very serious for the government. Let's see what Starmer can do with it.

    Sigh. What's he done now?
    Blown all the apologists for voter ID out the water.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869

    EU Commissioner Timmermans on the benefits of English as a lingua franca:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_23_2731

    By the way, this is the first time in human history that we have in Lingua Franca that is not just for the elites. For the first time in human history, we have a global Lingua Franca that transcends societal layers. Thanks to the internet, thanks to other developments, thanks to the predominance of Anglo-Saxon culture, English is an instrument for all. And this is the first time, in human history, that we have a true Lingua Franca for all: bad English.

    For maximum trolling, should it not now be Lingua Anglia?
This discussion has been closed.