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Memo to the “Bring Back Boris” brigade – politicalbetting.com

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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,839

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    Whether or not other countries do the same thing is strictly irrelevant. Sometimes (just sometimes) everyone else is wrong about something. The task is to decide on the merits of the case.
    But in this case they are not wrong and the reasons are clear. If someone is unwilling to take citizenship (and I would accept we need to make that a lot cheaper) then they are not making a commitment to the country. So why should they be able to vote on its future? Every other developed country seems to recognise this. I have yet to see any cogent argument against it.

    The counterargument is as I have stated downthread: that there are coherent reasons why you might want to preserve your foreign passport despite having made your life in this country. Not just the cost, but also the basis of being concerned about having the flexibility to visit family abroad at short notice without having to apply for a visa. Taking British citizenship can result in losing your other passport.
    We want the same thing: people who are allowed to vote should be the ones who have a stake in this country. I think your attitude towards those who live here but do not take citizenship is a little too unforgiving, possibly even a little paranoid about their motives. The passport is no reliable indicator of loyalty, the long pattern of living an sensible, ordinary life somewhere is a much better indicator in my view.
    Why are you so concerned with people potentially losing their other passport if you don't think a passport should confer any special rights?
    People need passports and, in some cases, visas or visa waivers to travel. If they have family in their birth country, they may be in a situation where they want to visit at short notice. That's a normal part of life, with ageing parents, siblings having children, friends' weddings etc.
    For some people, taking a British passport might complicate that and so they might decide it's better to keep hold of their other passport.

    I simply think that such a decision shouldn't be a bar to voting in the country where you live. I mean really, if you've got a long term job, 2 kids in the school, a gym membership, and you're running the local parkrun each weekend, are you really someone with no stake in this society?
    Yeah this is precisely where I am. There are a lot of people out there who perhaps have never lived overseas and don't have recent immigrant experience in their family history. But we live in a world of growing international mobility, and I think that democracies have to show some flexibility in terms of the franchise to ensure that fewer people fall into the taxation without representation trap simply because of the complexities of often competing citizenship frameworks.
    People also really need to break out of this mindset that somehow migration is inherently bad or threatening. The fact that even a child of immigrants like Suella Braverman can adopt this line of reasoning just illustrates what a strangely seductive mindset it is.
    The issue isn’t migration as such (apart from a small group). The issue is competition for scarce resources.

    Ordinary people saw wages held down, it was harder to get into local schools, the impossibility of GP appointments, council house waiting lists etc

    They not unreasonably made the connection between more people demanding services = more scarcity

    If governments had appropriately expanded *capacity* (not just increased spending) in public services then I think people would be more relaxed about immigration
    We're talking about the franchise.
    It's not like there's a limited supply of ballot papers. We could afford the extra pencils needed for marking your ballot even if we allowed every adult to vote.
    Immigration and infrastructure are really quite tangential issues to the subject here. Even if you stopped all immigration now, we'd still have this gap where people already here living settled, sensible, boring lives are not allowed to vote. That's the question here, not scarcity in public services.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,327
    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    Thanks for the work you do - it is vital.

    But life produces such stresses and strains. A differing anecdote: one of the calmest, nicest people I know was adopted. He is calm and doesn't get flustered by anything, and has done well in life. His adopted sister (from a different birth mother and father), is... less so. Same adoptive parents, different starts in life.

    I had a lot going on in my life when I was going through GCSE and A levels. I did well at my GCSEs, and horribly at my A-levels. That was my responsibility, not my circumstances - especially as I was in a worse state during my GCSE's than me A-levels...

    People are different. I am against qualifications being purely exam-based, but ability to perform under a little pressure is vital as well.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,194

    I can only think of one example where a party successfully managed to rig the deck, and that was Labour to devolution in Wales.

    I can't think of any other examples?

    I don't think PR would do it either. I think far too many Labour/Lib Dem establishment types think it would lock them in power forever, but it might just as easily open Pandora's Box.

    Scottish Parliament, albeit Labour + LDs in collusion (for an everlasting coalition).
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    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,169
    Deltapoll
    @DeltapollUK
    ·
    39m
    🚨🚨New Voting Intention🚨🚨
    Labour lead is sixteen points in latest results from Deltapoll.
    Con 29% (+1)
    Lab 45% (-2)
    Lib Dem 12% (+3)
    Other 15% (-1)
    Fieldwork: 12th - 15th May 2023
    Sample: 1,511 GB adults
    (Changes from 5th-9th May 2023)
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,056
    Boris or not (and I think not), I’m pretty sure

    Cookie said:

    EU Commissioner Timmermans on the benefits of English as a lingua franca:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_23_2731

    By the way, this is the first time in human history that we have in Lingua Franca that is not just for the elites. For the first time in human history, we have a global Lingua Franca that transcends societal layers. Thanks to the internet, thanks to other developments, thanks to the predominance of Anglo-Saxon culture, English is an instrument for all. And this is the first time, in human history, that we have a true Lingua Franca for all: bad English.

    This is so true and in some respects it puts native English speakers at a disadvantage, especially non-Americans (because it is a limited vocabulary version of American English that is the global lingua franca). British English in particular has a lot of ideosyncratic phrases that are extremely confusing to Global Bad English speakers. And try speaking to a Global Bad English speaker in a regional accent.
    I would argue - though I am aware this is not what the article meant! - that the UK leads the world in Bad English.
    Specifically, today, people who say 'them' when they mean 'those'. Including the head of HR at our place. Ugh.
    If I ever get convicted for murder it will be because someone has said "yourself" to me when they mean "you".
    How about “you yourself”?

    Not as bad as just “yourself”, which is a clumsy attempt at formality and also a little servile. Hate it.

    “Them” for those isn’t so bad because it is, I think, genuine dialect.

    As for Haitch though. Particular beloved of Haitch R managers.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,036
    Carnyx said:

    I can only think of one example where a party successfully managed to rig the deck, and that was Labour to devolution in Wales.

    I can't think of any other examples?

    I don't think PR would do it either. I think far too many Labour/Lib Dem establishment types think it would lock them in power forever, but it might just as easily open Pandora's Box.

    Scottish Parliament, albeit Labour + LDs in collusion (for an everlasting coalition).
    How'd that work out for them?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,194
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    I can only think of one example where a party successfully managed to rig the deck, and that was Labour to devolution in Wales.

    I can't think of any other examples?

    I don't think PR would do it either. I think far too many Labour/Lib Dem establishment types think it would lock them in power forever, but it might just as easily open Pandora's Box.

    Scottish Parliament, albeit Labour + LDs in collusion (for an everlasting coalition).
    How'd that work out for them?
    Pretty well to begin with. And who knows what will happen in the future?
  • Options
    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,169
    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    1h
    Labour leads by 14%, up two points from last week.

    Westminster VI (14 May):

    Labour 42% (+1)
    Conservative 28% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 11% (-5)
    Reform UK 8% (+3)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 4% (+1)
    Other 2% (+1)

    Changes +/- 7 May
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,056

    Deltapoll
    @DeltapollUK
    ·
    39m
    🚨🚨New Voting Intention🚨🚨
    Labour lead is sixteen points in latest results from Deltapoll.
    Con 29% (+1)
    Lab 45% (-2)
    Lib Dem 12% (+3)
    Other 15% (-1)
    Fieldwork: 12th - 15th May 2023
    Sample: 1,511 GB adults
    (Changes from 5th-9th May 2023)

    Bloody annoying how they lump together others making an LLG to RefCon comparison impossible unless you delve into the details. Still it looks like LLG of at least 60 unless the Greens have bombed.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,355
    edited May 2023
    TimS said:

    Boris or not (and I think not), I’m pretty sure

    Cookie said:

    EU Commissioner Timmermans on the benefits of English as a lingua franca:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_23_2731

    By the way, this is the first time in human history that we have in Lingua Franca that is not just for the elites. For the first time in human history, we have a global Lingua Franca that transcends societal layers. Thanks to the internet, thanks to other developments, thanks to the predominance of Anglo-Saxon culture, English is an instrument for all. And this is the first time, in human history, that we have a true Lingua Franca for all: bad English.

    This is so true and in some respects it puts native English speakers at a disadvantage, especially non-Americans (because it is a limited vocabulary version of American English that is the global lingua franca). British English in particular has a lot of ideosyncratic phrases that are extremely confusing to Global Bad English speakers. And try speaking to a Global Bad English speaker in a regional accent.
    I would argue - though I am aware this is not what the article meant! - that the UK leads the world in Bad English.
    Specifically, today, people who say 'them' when they mean 'those'. Including the head of HR at our place. Ugh.
    If I ever get convicted for murder it will be because someone has said "yourself" to me when they mean "you".
    How about “you yourself”?

    Not as bad as just “yourself”, which is a clumsy attempt at formality and also a little servile. Hate it.

    “Them” for those isn’t so bad because it is, I think, genuine dialect.

    As for Haitch though. Particular beloved of Haitch R managers.
    Presumably ChatGPT can produce unlimited content in the style of an estate agent.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,853

    TimS said:

    Boris or not (and I think not), I’m pretty sure

    Cookie said:

    EU Commissioner Timmermans on the benefits of English as a lingua franca:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_23_2731

    By the way, this is the first time in human history that we have in Lingua Franca that is not just for the elites. For the first time in human history, we have a global Lingua Franca that transcends societal layers. Thanks to the internet, thanks to other developments, thanks to the predominance of Anglo-Saxon culture, English is an instrument for all. And this is the first time, in human history, that we have a true Lingua Franca for all: bad English.

    This is so true and in some respects it puts native English speakers at a disadvantage, especially non-Americans (because it is a limited vocabulary version of American English that is the global lingua franca). British English in particular has a lot of ideosyncratic phrases that are extremely confusing to Global Bad English speakers. And try speaking to a Global Bad English speaker in a regional accent.
    I would argue - though I am aware this is not what the article meant! - that the UK leads the world in Bad English.
    Specifically, today, people who say 'them' when they mean 'those'. Including the head of HR at our place. Ugh.
    If I ever get convicted for murder it will be because someone has said "yourself" to me when they mean "you".
    How about “you yourself”?

    Not as bad as just “yourself”, which is a clumsy attempt at formality and also a little servile. Hate it.

    “Them” for those isn’t so bad because it is, I think, genuine dialect.

    As for Haitch though. Particular beloved of Haitch R managers.
    Presumably ChatGPT can produce unlimited content in the style of an estate agent.
    It's not that bad!
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,056

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    1h
    Labour leads by 14%, up two points from last week.

    Westminster VI (14 May):

    Labour 42% (+1)
    Conservative 28% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 11% (-5)
    Reform UK 8% (+3)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 4% (+1)
    Other 2% (+1)

    Changes +/- 7 May

    LLG 58%, down 3 points. RefCon up 2.
  • Options
    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,169
    edited May 2023
    In respect to the infamous Scottish subsample, Labour have a lead of 10 with Deltapoll, while the SNP lead by 8 with R&W.
  • Options
    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,169
    J
    @Beyond_Topline
    ·
    43m
    Sunak now at -16 with Deltapoll. Starmer's ratings back to where they were pre-Locals, too.

    In-line with Opinium (-19) and Omnisis (-14) who also show Sunak's ratings significantly down.

    Meanwhile, R&W have Sunak on, erm, the best ratings he's had this year.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869
    Andy_JS said:

    "Braverman's immigration speech interrupted by protesters after Rees-Mogg heckled on stage

    Mr Rees-Mogg was moments into his speech when a protester warned of 'facism' before being hauled off stage by security."

    https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-rees-mogg-protester-storms-stage-during-speech-to-warn-of-fascism-12881437

    She handled that well.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Foss said:

    Farooq said:

    I can only think of one example where a party successfully managed to rig the deck, and that was Labour to devolution in Wales.

    I can't think of any other examples?

    I don't think PR would do it either. I think far too many Labour/Lib Dem establishment types think it would lock them in power forever, but it might just as easily open Pandora's Box.

    "establishment types"
    It's not unreasonable to suggest that PR might lead to an Alternative-for-Bolsover type of group and a Neo-Respect - both of which would draw at least some support from traditional Labour blocks.
    Sure, let the big parties fragment.
    I'm just wondering to what extent you can call a party that hasn't led a government for 13 years, and another party that hasn't led a government for a hundred years, "establishment types".
    It doesn't get much more establishment than being a member of the privy council.
    Right, ok then, so everybody is the establishment. Nadine Dorries, Angela Rayner, everyone. I guess Sinn Fein are the only ones to vote for if you don't like that.
    I said it with a small "e" - it's a sign of bubble thinking where you think everyone else thinks precisely the same way you do.

    Be careful what you wish for.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The nationalist Tory right currently planning for a decade in opposition in the full glare of publicity really is quite a thing, isn't it? Who on earth inside the Tory party is in a position to stop them, though?

    Not necessarily guaranteed the Nationalist right will be in opposition for ten years is it? Look who has won the most recent elections for the right in the western world. Trump, Meloni, Johnson, Morrison, Netanyahu and Le Pen got closer than many expected in 2022. In Sweden and Finland and Austria too the centre right only won with the support of a Nationalist right party.

    Indeed since Trump won in 2016 only in Greece and Ireland have mainstream parties of the centre right in the West won a general election outright on a non Nationalist platform and in Ireland that was technically a coalition of FF and FG with SF winning most votes and seats

    There is no viable Nationalist Right other than the Tories in the UK. Nor will there be, at least until the Tories are thoroughly broken. And the rogues gallery you listed of Nationalist right leaders are only in that position because of decades of building support so that they were ready to take advantage of circumstance - with the possible exception of Trump but even he relied upon decades old organsiations and movements on the fringes of politcis.

    The UK doesn't really do Nationalist right. Just as it doesn't really do true solcialist left. And I for one am content with that.
    For now. With PR RefUK would win 50-100 seats. Remember in 2015 even under FPTP UKIP got 13%.

    Having said that a new Corbynite Left Party would also win 50-100 seats under PR.

    The UK only doesn't really do nationalist right and socialist left (with the brief exceptions of Johnson and Corbyn becoming Tory and Labour leaders) due to FPTP. Under PR a sixth to a third of MPs+ would always be from the Nationalist right or socialist left
    In 2015, under PR, the Tories + UKIP had an absolute majority of the vote, and so that's the Government we would have got.
    Well, if that looked likely in the run-up to the election it might have pushed some centrist Tori voters into voting Lib Dem instead.

    It's a mistake to read across vote shares from our FPTP GEs and predict PR election results on that basis. I know the Electoral Reform Society do that for every GE and I tend to think - what's the point?

    The greatest advantage of a non-FPTP system is precisely that it gives voters better choices then they have with FPTP, and so I'd hope that voters would use those choices to vote differently (though I'm not naive enough to think that they'd vote in a way that made me happy, given that one of my local TDs in Ireland is a complete bell-end by the name of Michael Collins).
    That's possible, and of course the opposite is true - UKIP votes might have increased under PR, and not necessarily at the expense of the Tories. Labour could have edged down further.

    The point is that right-wing coalitions will emerge just as often as left-wing ones do.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    Andy_JS said:

    Heathener said:

    Spent the day hiking on Dartmoor after working the weekend. Bliss.

    There is only one Conservative I fear fighting against at the next General Election and his name is Boris Johnson.

    The guy is a shit but that's part of the point.

    Anyone other than him, it's a Labour landslide.

    I have a suspicion Johnson will replace Sunak in the next 12 months if the polls continue to show a 15 to 20 point Labour lead.
    The switcheroo is becoming inevitable isn’t it. It’s 2019 all over again.

    Even “Labour landslide nailed on” Heathener is now qualifying it with “except if Boris Johnson is leader.”

    When all that’s left (the moment will be after Sunak’s damp squib of a party conference) is to press the Black Swan button, of course they will press the button.

    The problem Labour and Lib Dem PBers have, quite simply, in their hatred of Boris they don’t understand how or why he appeals. The cold water to chuck in their faces, the hint, is it’s got nothing to do with the real Boris Johnson. It’s to do with how he is imagined. Like Mrs Moore in the passage to India. Or like the anti democracy bloodthirsty psychopath Oliver Cromwell, who people think was a good guy and happy to use the b******* as their avatar. Or people thinking Thomas Moor was the nice bloke in that play.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,036
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    I can only think of one example where a party successfully managed to rig the deck, and that was Labour to devolution in Wales.

    I can't think of any other examples?

    I don't think PR would do it either. I think far too many Labour/Lib Dem establishment types think it would lock them in power forever, but it might just as easily open Pandora's Box.

    Scottish Parliament, albeit Labour + LDs in collusion (for an everlasting coalition).
    How'd that work out for them?
    Pretty well to begin with. And who knows what will happen in the future?
    But not now, so I don't think you can describe it as successfully rigging the deck.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,344
    Freedom of speech seems to be the topic of the day.

    Article in the New Yorker by the fine legal commentator Jeannie Suk Gersen:
    My piece on defamation and democracy, in this week's
    @NewYorker , asks whether we can do better than NYT v. Sullvan, and better hold liars to account, for the sake of our democracy. https://newyorker.com/magazine/2023/05/22/the-dark-side-of-defamation-law. I know, not a popular opinion among journalists, but hear me out.

    https://twitter.com/JeannieSGersen/status/1657508191477825537

    FWIW, I like the US attitude towards a fairly maximalist view of free speech, but I agree with her conclusion that the "actual malice" standard could do with re-examining.
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    pm215pm215 Posts: 947
    TimS said:

    Deltapoll
    @DeltapollUK
    ·
    39m
    🚨🚨New Voting Intention🚨🚨
    Labour lead is sixteen points in latest results from Deltapoll.
    Con 29% (+1)
    Lab 45% (-2)
    Lib Dem 12% (+3)
    Other 15% (-1)
    Fieldwork: 12th - 15th May 2023
    Sample: 1,511 GB adults
    (Changes from 5th-9th May 2023)

    Bloody annoying how they lump together others making an LLG to RefCon comparison impossible unless you delve into the details. Still it looks like LLG of at least 60 unless the Greens have bombed.
    I'm pretty sure the Greens are against the bomb...
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869
    How is Joe Biden still available at 1.33?

    Seriously tempted to drop a big one on that.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,147

    Andy_JS said:

    Heathener said:

    Spent the day hiking on Dartmoor after working the weekend. Bliss.

    There is only one Conservative I fear fighting against at the next General Election and his name is Boris Johnson.

    The guy is a shit but that's part of the point.

    Anyone other than him, it's a Labour landslide.

    I have a suspicion Johnson will replace Sunak in the next 12 months if the polls continue to show a 15 to 20 point Labour lead.
    The switcheroo is becoming inevitable isn’t it. It’s 2019 all over again.

    Even “Labour landslide nailed on” Heathener is now qualifying it with “except if Boris Johnson is leader.”

    When all that’s left (the moment will be after Sunak’s damp squib of a party conference) is to press the Black Swan button, of course they will press the button.

    The problem Labour and Lib Dem PBers have, quite simply, in their hatred of Boris they don’t understand how or why he appeals. The cold water to chuck in their faces, the hint, is it’s got nothing to do with the real Boris Johnson. It’s to do with how he is imagined. Like Mrs Moore in the passage to India. Or like the anti democracy bloodthirsty psychopath Oliver Cromwell, who people think was a good guy and happy to use the b******* as their avatar. Or people thinking Thomas Moor was the nice bloke in that play.
    My dislike of Bozo is that he's a lying crook with less morals than an alley cat on heat.

    But I don't think it's worth thinking about him until the Standards committee recommend their punishment and the Tory party is forced to make a painful decision.

  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    edited May 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    "Braverman's immigration speech interrupted by protesters after Rees-Mogg heckled on stage

    Mr Rees-Mogg was moments into his speech when a protester warned of 'facism' before being hauled off stage by security."

    https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-rees-mogg-protester-storms-stage-during-speech-to-warn-of-fascism-12881437

    She handled that well.
    “Right… Anyone else?” 🙂

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_fbASHIMJc
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694

    Andy_JS said:

    "Braverman's immigration speech interrupted by protesters after Rees-Mogg heckled on stage

    Mr Rees-Mogg was moments into his speech when a protester warned of 'facism' before being hauled off stage by security."

    https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-rees-mogg-protester-storms-stage-during-speech-to-warn-of-fascism-12881437

    She handled that well.
    “Right… Anyone else?” 🙂
    Will be interesting to see how her naked pitch for the Tory leadership is greeted in the Tory press tomorrow.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,436
    edited May 2023

    So with JRM admitting the voter ID change was a voter suppression thing, I wouldn't be surprised to see the police launch a criminal investigation into Sunak, Johnson et al.

    The snivelling little shits that defended this should reflect on their Trumpesque like behaviour.

    Deploy the tent!



  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869
    Boris Johnson isn't coming back.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,789

    Boris Johnson isn't coming back.

    He and his supporters think he is.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553

    So with JRM admitting the voter ID change was a voter suppression thing, I wouldn't be surprised to see the police launch a criminal investigation into Sunak, Johnson et al.

    The snivelling little shits that defended this should reflect on their Trumpesque like behaviour.

    Can we have a big old thread header on this massive scandal please?

    This should be enormous but PBers seem more outraged that Starmer has suggested a review to widen voter participation. Maybe it's for party gain, maybe not.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,789

    So with JRM admitting the voter ID change was a voter suppression thing, I wouldn't be surprised to see the police launch a criminal investigation into Sunak, Johnson et al.

    The snivelling little shits that defended this should reflect on their Trumpesque like behaviour.

    Can we have a big old thread header on this massive scandal please?

    This should be enormous but PBers seem more outraged that Starmer has suggested a review to widen voter participation. Maybe it's for party gain, maybe not.
    I'm sure Mike will publish one, I'm sure the PBers that told Mike he was wrong on this topic will be eager to apologise to him.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Braverman's immigration speech interrupted by protesters after Rees-Mogg heckled on stage

    Mr Rees-Mogg was moments into his speech when a protester warned of 'facism' before being hauled off stage by security."

    https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-rees-mogg-protester-storms-stage-during-speech-to-warn-of-fascism-12881437

    Jacob still called him 'a jolly good fellow' and said 'we believe in freedom of speech'. Well handled Jacob!

    Braverman less quick with any riposte as her protestors were booed and carried out of the hall
    Nonsense. Have you not seen it? Braverman was just like Lady Thatcher how she dealt with it.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,653

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    1h
    Labour leads by 14%, up two points from last week.

    Westminster VI (14 May):

    Labour 42% (+1)
    Conservative 28% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 11% (-5)
    Reform UK 8% (+3)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 4% (+1)
    Other 2% (+1)

    Changes +/- 7 May

    Broken, sleazy Tories and LibDems on the slide!
  • Options
    maxhmaxh Posts: 863

    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    Thanks for the work you do - it is vital.

    But life produces such stresses and strains. A differing anecdote: one of the calmest, nicest people I know was adopted. He is calm and doesn't get flustered by anything, and has done well in life. His adopted sister (from a different birth mother and father), is... less so. Same adoptive parents, different starts in life.

    I had a lot going on in my life when I was going through GCSE and A levels. I did well at my GCSEs, and horribly at my A-levels. That was my responsibility, not my circumstances - especially as I was in a worse state during my GCSE's than me A-levels...

    People are different. I am against qualifications being purely exam-based, but ability to perform under a little pressure is vital as well.
    I agree with all you say - and reflecting on your and others' replies I'm not sure my original post was that clear.

    It's not that any form of stress causes him to lose the ability to perform. It's the particular form of stress that exams create. He is just an extreme example of what many kids experience - he just says his mind goes blank; he knows that he knows how to e.g. factorise a quadratic, but he can't access that info in the moment.

    Of course that is a weakness, but it shouldn't be one that bars him from a whole range of life choices after a set of exams at 16.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869
    On voting rights, I'd say what's in the long-term interests of the Conservative and Labour parties on Commonwealth and EU voters, respectively, is probably precisely the other way round.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @jonsopel

    Don’t want to go over the top, but this is absolutely jaw-dropping. Someone who was in the cabinet when legislation on voter ID was agreed and went through parliament acknowledges it WAS an attempt to gerrymander the elections

    https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1658076536350601216

    Said at the conference of loons.
    Which appears to be taking some of its themes from the US right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates
    ...The UK’s low birthrate is the most pressing policy issue of the generation and is caused in part by “cultural Marxism” stripping young people of any hope, a Conservative MP has argued at the start of a populist-tinged conference in London.

    Addressing the National Conservatism gathering, run by a US-based thinktank, Miriam Cates said western countries faced an existential threat from falling reproduction..
    The whole purpose of this well funded conference is to import the craziness of the US right into UK politics. See also recent attempts to rig the franchise (which a former Tory cabinet minister has admitted was gerrymandering). The Tories are utterly toxic now.
    Yes, falling birth rates in the West have long been a preoccupation of the US hard-Right. I don't know if the reason they give for this concern - Christian white folk being outbred by the Muslims - was made explicit on this occasion.
    More a case of atheist white folk being outbred by Muslims, Christian evangelicals also have lots of children and Catholics used to have more too
    Dear, oh Lord!

    Atheists, go forth and multiply.
    Outside of a few small groups (like Ultra Orthodox Jews) there is bugger all correlation between religiosity and TFR.

    Italy, for example, is way more religious than the UK (73% say religion is important vs 25% in the UK), and yet has a much worse TFR.
    You clearly did not read any of the links I posted which ALL showed that the religious have a much higher birthrate than the non religious.
    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/news/religious-people-have-more-children
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/religious-belief-makes-you-have-more-children-gttxqqxvx
    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/gods-little-rabbits-religious-people-out-reproduce-secular-ones-by-a-landslide/

    In Italy the most religious are pensioners, so obviously irrelevant to birthrate. The point is only relevant to those aged 16-45
    So, those religious pensioners gave birth to non religious folk*?

    * While younger, obviously
    'Data from around 34,000 people between the ages of 18 and 45 from eight European countries – Austria, France, the Netherlands, Sweden, Poland, Russia, Bulgaria, and Georgia – were evaluated in this longitudinal study..Religion still plays a central role in family planning today, as the results suggest. "Our study confirms that practicing Christians, i.e., those who regularly attend church services, want and actually have more children than nominal Christians and non-religious people," says OeAW demographer Isabella Buber-Ennser.

    An example of this: in Austria, practicing Christians between the ages of 20 and 29 stated that they would like two to three children. The 35- to 44-year-old practicing Christian women then had an average of two children (1.8). In comparison, for women without a religion, the desired number of children in the age group 20 to 29 was two children (1.9) and the age group 35 to 44 then only had one child (0.9).

    Although the data differ from country to country, the general trend is similar: in the eight countries examined, practicing Christian women in the 20 to 29 age group want an average of 2.5 children, and the 35- to 44-year-olds have an average of two. On the other hand, those who do not have a denomination only want two children and have an average of 1.5 children.'
    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/news/religious-people-have-more-children

    “In the past 15 years there has been an increasing effort to explain the evolution of religiousness,” said Janko Međedović, writing in the Journal of Biosocial Science..He looked at 461 parents of psychology students at Singidunum University in the Serbian capital, Belgrade, and asked them how many children they had and also how many they had planned to have when they were young adults.

    The more religious the parents were the more children they originally desired and the more they ended up having — and the effect was particularly marked among men. In 2016, a review of census data from almost 4 million women in 32 countries found that those who were religious were less likely to be childless.'
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/religious-belief-makes-you-have-more-children-gttxqqxvx

    'Even flailing religious denominations placing their emphasis on converting outsiders, such as Yehova’s witnesses, are out-reproducing nonreligious mothers. Hindus (2.79 births per woman), Muslims (2.44), and Jews (2.06), meanwhile, are prolific producers of human beings. Nonreligious Swiss mothers bear a measly 1.11 children.'
    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/gods-little-rabbits-religious-people-out-reproduce-secular-ones-by-a-landslide/
    To repeat my question,

    So, those religious pensioners gave birth to non religious folk*?

    * While younger, obviously
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,753
    edited May 2023
    TimS said:

    Boris or not (and I think not), I’m pretty sure

    Cookie said:

    EU Commissioner Timmermans on the benefits of English as a lingua franca:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_23_2731

    By the way, this is the first time in human history that we have in Lingua Franca that is not just for the elites. For the first time in human history, we have a global Lingua Franca that transcends societal layers. Thanks to the internet, thanks to other developments, thanks to the predominance of Anglo-Saxon culture, English is an instrument for all. And this is the first time, in human history, that we have a true Lingua Franca for all: bad English.

    This is so true and in some respects it puts native English speakers at a disadvantage, especially non-Americans (because it is a limited vocabulary version of American English that is the global lingua franca). British English in particular has a lot of ideosyncratic phrases that are extremely confusing to Global Bad English speakers. And try speaking to a Global Bad English speaker in a regional accent.
    I would argue - though I am aware this is not what the article meant! - that the UK leads the world in Bad English.
    Specifically, today, people who say 'them' when they mean 'those'. Including the head of HR at our place. Ugh.
    If I ever get convicted for murder it will be because someone has said "yourself" to me when they mean "you".
    How about “you yourself”?

    Not as bad as just “yourself”, which is a clumsy attempt at formality and also a little servile. Hate it.

    “Them” for those isn’t so bad because it is, I think, genuine dialect.

    As for Haitch though. Particular beloved of Haitch R managers.
    "I had went to them shops, thems were barie but then I had to gan yam to me mam's" is perfectly good English, still to be heard.

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,789
    England’s selectors have discussed the idea of Ben Stokes opening the batting in the Ashes amid fresh concerns over his fitness to bowl in this summer’s Test matches.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ben-stokess-bowling-struggles-renew-ashes-injury-fears-flxb5rqph
  • Options
    maxhmaxh Posts: 863
    Andy_JS said:

    "Braverman's immigration speech interrupted by protesters after Rees-Mogg heckled on stage

    Mr Rees-Mogg was moments into his speech when a protester warned of 'facism' before being hauled off stage by security."

    https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-rees-mogg-protester-storms-stage-during-speech-to-warn-of-fascism-12881437

    I mean, if you choose to call your conference 'National Conservatism' it does rather echo another 'National ...ism' that isn't quite the best look for Braverman et al. right now.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,959

    On voting rights, I'd say what's in the long-term interests of the Conservative and Labour parties on Commonwealth and EU voters, respectively, is probably precisely the other way round.

    I'd imagine EU, Commonwealth, or other nationals, who have been here 10 years and paying taxes, who live in constituency X will be pretty closely aligned with the existing electorate of constituency X. So the ones in London might be metropolitan city liberal/lefty types and the ones in Wiltshire more rural and conservative.

    It won't change many Westminster seats at all, none is a runner.

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,707
    edited May 2023

    Boris Johnson isn't coming back.

    If the current miserable excuse for a Prime Minister was doing a half tolerable job, nobody would be discussing it. As he isn't, hope of some sort of intervention springs eternal.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,223

    England’s selectors have discussed the idea of Ben Stokes opening the batting in the Ashes amid fresh concerns over his fitness to bowl in this summer’s Test matches.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ben-stokess-bowling-struggles-renew-ashes-injury-fears-flxb5rqph

    I have a ticket for the first day at Lord's. I'm praying for no rain and for England to bat first.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    edited May 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @jonsopel

    Don’t want to go over the top, but this is absolutely jaw-dropping. Someone who was in the cabinet when legislation on voter ID was agreed and went through parliament acknowledges it WAS an attempt to gerrymander the elections

    https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1658076536350601216

    Said at the conference of loons.
    Which appears to be taking some of its themes from the US right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates
    ...The UK’s low birthrate is the most pressing policy issue of the generation and is caused in part by “cultural Marxism” stripping young people of any hope, a Conservative MP has argued at the start of a populist-tinged conference in London.

    Addressing the National Conservatism gathering, run by a US-based thinktank, Miriam Cates said western countries faced an existential threat from falling reproduction..
    The whole purpose of this well funded conference is to import the craziness of the US right into UK politics. See also recent attempts to rig the franchise (which a former Tory cabinet minister has admitted was gerrymandering). The Tories are utterly toxic now.
    Yes, falling birth rates in the West have long been a preoccupation of the US hard-Right. I don't know if the reason they give for this concern - Christian white folk being outbred by the Muslims - was made explicit on this occasion.
    More a case of atheist white folk being outbred by Muslims, Christian evangelicals also have lots of children and Catholics used to have more too
    Dear, oh Lord!

    Atheists, go forth and multiply.
    Outside of a few small groups (like Ultra Orthodox Jews) there is bugger all correlation between religiosity and TFR.

    Italy, for example, is way more religious than the UK (73% say religion is important vs 25% in the UK), and yet has a much worse TFR.
    You clearly did not read any of the links I posted which ALL showed that the religious have a much higher birthrate than the non religious.
    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/news/religious-people-have-more-children
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/religious-belief-makes-you-have-more-children-gttxqqxvx
    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/gods-little-rabbits-religious-people-out-reproduce-secular-ones-by-a-landslide/

    In Italy the most religious are pensioners, so obviously irrelevant to birthrate. The point is only relevant to those aged 16-45
    So, those religious pensioners gave birth to non religious folk*?

    * While younger, obviously
    'Data from around 34,000 people between the ages of 18 and 45 from eight European countries – Austria, France, the Netherlands, Sweden, Poland, Russia, Bulgaria, and Georgia – were evaluated in this longitudinal study..Religion still plays a central role in family planning today, as the results suggest. "Our study confirms that practicing Christians, i.e., those who regularly attend church services, want and actually have more children than nominal Christians and non-religious people," says OeAW demographer Isabella Buber-Ennser.

    An example of this: in Austria, practicing Christians between the ages of 20 and 29 stated that they would like two to three children. The 35- to 44-year-old practicing Christian women then had an average of two children (1.8). In comparison, for women without a religion, the desired number of children in the age group 20 to 29 was two children (1.9) and the age group 35 to 44 then only had one child (0.9).

    Although the data differ from country to country, the general trend is similar: in the eight countries examined, practicing Christian women in the 20 to 29 age group want an average of 2.5 children, and the 35- to 44-year-olds have an average of two. On the other hand, those who do not have a denomination only want two children and have an average of 1.5 children.'
    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/news/religious-people-have-more-children

    “In the past 15 years there has been an increasing effort to explain the evolution of religiousness,” said Janko Međedović, writing in the Journal of Biosocial Science..He looked at 461 parents of psychology students at Singidunum University in the Serbian capital, Belgrade, and asked them how many children they had and also how many they had planned to have when they were young adults.

    The more religious the parents were the more children they originally desired and the more they ended up having — and the effect was particularly marked among men. In 2016, a review of census data from almost 4 million women in 32 countries found that those who were religious were less likely to be childless.'
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/religious-belief-makes-you-have-more-children-gttxqqxvx

    'Even flailing religious denominations placing their emphasis on converting outsiders, such as Yehova’s witnesses, are out-reproducing nonreligious mothers. Hindus (2.79 births per woman), Muslims (2.44), and Jews (2.06), meanwhile, are prolific producers of human beings. Nonreligious Swiss mothers bear a measly 1.11 children.'
    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/gods-little-rabbits-religious-people-out-reproduce-secular-ones-by-a-landslide/
    To repeat my question,

    So, those religious pensioners gave birth to non religious folk*?

    * While younger, obviously
    Quite possibly, as the younger population in Italy is less Roman Catholic than the older population Italy's birthrate too is in decline.

    Whatever the results as the studies I showed above demonstrate atheists have a lower birthrate than Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Jews, especially those who actively worship and practice their faith
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Obviously the Tories are planning to be active the day the migration figures are published - no one has said what the day is, can the government control the timing for Friday afternoon before whitsun holidays? They are obviously going to distract from the bad news with something.

    I reckon if they put a plane in the air to Rwanda the day the immigration figures come out, the Tories will go up in the following polls. Imagine the front pages if Braverman can get a plane in the air to Rwanda the day the immigration figures come out.
  • Options
    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,169

    Boris Johnson isn't coming back.

    He and his supporters think he is.
    Any gossip on how many letters Brady may have received?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,789

    Boris Johnson isn't coming back.

    He and his supporters think he is.
    Any gossip on how many letters Brady may have received?
    Sir Graham isn't accepting letters until the end of October.

    As Truss and Johnson found out, you don't need letters to be ousted.
  • Options
    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,169
    There's also the matter of how Mad Nad, JRM etc. convince 180 odd MPs to no confidence Rishi even if they manage to get enough letters in...
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,789

    There's also the matter of how Mad Nad, JRM etc. convince 180 odd MPs to no confidence Rishi even if they manage to get enough letters in...

    Keep on pointing Sunak is a loser.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,789
    tlg86 said:

    England’s selectors have discussed the idea of Ben Stokes opening the batting in the Ashes amid fresh concerns over his fitness to bowl in this summer’s Test matches.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ben-stokess-bowling-struggles-renew-ashes-injury-fears-flxb5rqph

    I have a ticket for the first day at Lord's. I'm praying for no rain and for England to bat first.
    Fingers crossed for you. England to be 600/1 at stumps on Day 1.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Good afternoon

    Re Starmer's proposals on EU citizens, I do believe that anyone living here with settled status and paying tax should be entitled to vote

    However, I also believe that this is a mistep by Starmer as well as his proposals for votes for 16 and 17 year olds

    In the next fortnight the UK immigration figures for this year are due out and reportedly will be near one million, no doubt largely from Ukraine, Hong Kong, and Afghanistan which is a huge number

    Braverman ( no I do not like her) in a speech today apparently attacked this level of immigration and also Starmer

    The red wall and others will not be impressed with this high level of immigration, and add into the mix that Starmer is wanting to give votes to upto 5 million EU citizens then you can see a big row over immigration on the horizon

    Again I have to ask why you believe that we should be the one exception amongst first world countries in allowing non citizens to vote in our national elections? In fact we should be moving the other way and removing the franchise from the anomolies (Commonwealth and Irish citizens)
    Whether or not other countries do the same thing is strictly irrelevant. Sometimes (just sometimes) everyone else is wrong about something. The task is to decide on the merits of the case.
    But in this case they are not wrong and the reasons are clear. If someone is unwilling to take citizenship (and I would accept we need to make that a lot cheaper) then they are not making a commitment to the country. So why should they be able to vote on its future? Every other developed country seems to recognise this. I have yet to see any cogent argument against it.

    The counterargument is as I have stated downthread: that there are coherent reasons why you might want to preserve your foreign passport despite having made your life in this country. Not just the cost, but also the basis of being concerned about having the flexibility to visit family abroad at short notice without having to apply for a visa. Taking British citizenship can result in losing your other passport.
    We want the same thing: people who are allowed to vote should be the ones who have a stake in this country. I think your attitude towards those who live here but do not take citizenship is a little too unforgiving, possibly even a little paranoid about their motives. The passport is no reliable indicator of loyalty, the long pattern of living an sensible, ordinary life somewhere is a much better indicator in my view.
    Why are you so concerned with people potentially losing their other passport if you don't think a passport should confer any special rights?
    People need passports and, in some cases, visas or visa waivers to travel. If they have family in their birth country, they may be in a situation where they want to visit at short notice. That's a normal part of life, with ageing parents, siblings having children, friends' weddings etc.
    For some people, taking a British passport might complicate that and so they might decide it's better to keep hold of their other passport.

    I simply think that such a decision shouldn't be a bar to voting in the country where you live. I mean really, if you've got a long term job, 2 kids in the school, a gym membership, and you're running the local parkrun each weekend, are you really someone with no stake in this society?
    Yeah this is precisely where I am. There are a lot of people out there who perhaps have never lived overseas and don't have recent immigrant experience in their family history. But we live in a world of growing international mobility, and I think that democracies have to show some flexibility in terms of the franchise to ensure that fewer people fall into the taxation without representation trap simply because of the complexities of often competing citizenship frameworks.
    People also really need to break out of this mindset that somehow migration is inherently bad or threatening. The fact that even a child of immigrants like Suella Braverman can adopt this line of reasoning just illustrates what a strangely seductive mindset it is.
    Migration is certainly not bad or threatening. But when migrants settle somewhere they should take citizenship of the country in which they settle. At least if they want to take part in the democratic process of that country.

    And millions of people fall into the taxation without representation trap as you call it. They do so without even living in the country tacxing them. I worked on and off for 15 years in Norway and paid Norwegian taxes. But there was no way in a million years Norway was going to let me vote in their elections. Nor did I expect them to. I was there to do a job and then go home. Even if I kept going back for 15 years.
    Although you and I are diametrically opposed politically I read your views with interest. I am surprised you are so alarmed by a discussion about the extension of the franchise, which let's face it is as we speak no more than a discussion, yet seen relatively comfortable with ID cards introduced in order to facilitate what has now been busted as a cast iron voter suppression attempt. I am surprised
    No you have me wrong. I was vehemently opposed to ID cards for voting (and indeed ID cards in any form that demands presentation to the authorities). I posted at length about it in the run up to the locals. It was a clear what the reasons were for it and that it was an abuse of power.
    Fair enough. My point was clumsy. You have always been David Davis like in your opposition to compulsory ID cards. I meant the requirement for ID in order to vote. You have countered my point clearly and concisely.
  • Options
    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,169

    There's also the matter of how Mad Nad, JRM etc. convince 180 odd MPs to no confidence Rishi even if they manage to get enough letters in...

    Keep on pointing Sunak is a loser.
    If the alternative is Boris though...
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324
    maxh said:



    Nigelb said:

    maxh - A few years ago, I read about a heart medicine -- that was being used (off label) by a few symphony musicians because if kept them calm during performances. It's been a while, so I can't think of the name of the medicine.

    I should add that the article where I read about this medicine wasn't entirely sympthetic. (It was probably in the NYT.)

    Beta blockers ?
    Also once used by snooker players.
    Back in the mists of time I ran a citizens assembly on recreational drug use, and was surprised that part of the discussion was about performance enhancing drugs in schools and universities.

    As I recall they were quite experimental drugs and I think there was rightly a much more vociferous reaction against their use in young people than against most
    recreational drugs.

    Since then I have never come across a case of them actually being used, though. Perhaps at uni?

    In any case, if our solution to any problem is to encourage a teenager to take experimental drugs I think we’re probably asking the wrong questions!
    As I understand it, Adderall and Ritalin are widely abused in older (15+) kids and university students.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    edited May 2023

    There's also the matter of how Mad Nad, JRM etc. convince 180 odd MPs to no confidence Rishi even if they manage to get enough letters in...

    Indeed, short of losing another 1000+ seats at next May's local elections, in which case there would be barely any Tory councillors left, Rishi will lead the Tories into the general election in autumn 2024.

    Remember last October 197 Tory MPs nominated Rishi but only 62 MPs nominated Boris, I doubt much has changed since. Only once the membership get a say again if Rishi and Hunt lose the next general election will a more rightwing leader be elected again
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,411

    Cookie said:

    EU Commissioner Timmermans on the benefits of English as a lingua franca:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_23_2731

    By the way, this is the first time in human history that we have in Lingua Franca that is not just for the elites. For the first time in human history, we have a global Lingua Franca that transcends societal layers. Thanks to the internet, thanks to other developments, thanks to the predominance of Anglo-Saxon culture, English is an instrument for all. And this is the first time, in human history, that we have a true Lingua Franca for all: bad English.

    This is so true and in some respects it puts native English speakers at a disadvantage, especially non-Americans (because it is a limited vocabulary version of American English that is the global lingua franca). British English in particular has a lot of ideosyncratic phrases that are extremely confusing to Global Bad English speakers. And try speaking to a Global Bad English speaker in a regional accent.
    I would argue - though I am aware this is not what the article meant! - that the UK leads the world in Bad English.
    Specifically, today, people who say 'them' when they mean 'those'. Including the head of HR at our place. Ugh.
    If I ever get convicted for murder it will be because someone has said "yourself" to me when they mean "you".
    How about “you yourself”?

    I have already murdered several people for saying 'This moment in time' when they meant 'now'.

    They deserved it.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,789

    There's also the matter of how Mad Nad, JRM etc. convince 180 odd MPs to no confidence Rishi even if they manage to get enough letters in...

    Keep on pointing Sunak is a loser.
    If the alternative is Boris though...
    They are hoping Tory MPs remember 2019 rather than the fact Boris Johnson was ousted for putting a known sexual predator into a position of authority then lying about it.

    If Boris Johnson makes the final two he wins.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553
    edited May 2023

    Boris Johnson isn't coming back.

    He and his supporters think he is.
    Any gossip on how many letters Brady may have received?
    Sir Graham isn't accepting letters until the end of October.

    As Truss and Johnson found out, you don't need letters to be ousted.
    As our man on the spot, who gets the gig after Richie Rich?

    If the Cons could parachute Zelensky into Mid Beds, he challenges as leader and six weeks later you could have a landslide.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,789

    NEW THREAD

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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,897
    What are the key differences between National Conservatism and National Socialism?
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,060
    FF43 said:

    What are the key differences between National Conservatism and National Socialism?
    Worse dress sense?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553

    Cookie said:

    EU Commissioner Timmermans on the benefits of English as a lingua franca:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_23_2731

    By the way, this is the first time in human history that we have in Lingua Franca that is not just for the elites. For the first time in human history, we have a global Lingua Franca that transcends societal layers. Thanks to the internet, thanks to other developments, thanks to the predominance of Anglo-Saxon culture, English is an instrument for all. And this is the first time, in human history, that we have a true Lingua Franca for all: bad English.

    This is so true and in some respects it puts native English speakers at a disadvantage, especially non-Americans (because it is a limited vocabulary version of American English that is the global lingua franca). British English in particular has a lot of ideosyncratic phrases that are extremely confusing to Global Bad English speakers. And try speaking to a Global Bad English speaker in a regional accent.
    I would argue - though I am aware this is not what the article meant! - that the UK leads the world in Bad English.
    Specifically, today, people who say 'them' when they mean 'those'. Including the head of HR at our place. Ugh.
    If I ever get convicted for murder it will be because someone has said "yourself" to me when they mean "you".
    How about “you yourself”?

    I have already murdered several people for saying 'This moment in time' when they meant 'now'.

    They deserved it.
    Having lived in South Wales for nearly 40 years I have developed a contradictory time related verbal tic. "I'll be along, now in a minute".
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,355

    Boris Johnson isn't coming back.

    He and his supporters think he is.
    IIRC you think he is, so are you in that category despite yourself?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,327
    maxh said:

    maxh said:

    O/T (apologies) anecdote alert:

    TL;DR - even if we dealt with all the myriad problems with the underfunding of our education system, it would still entrench disadvantage - here's how.

    I am lucky enough to run a mentoring system for kids in school who have been through the foster system. They're awesome, and the programme transforms lives. But some of them still fail exams unnecessarily.

    I had my final mentoring session with one student before his first maths exam on Friday. He could answer almost every question confidently on the foundation paper, and without a doubt deserves a grade 5. He has a fantastic work ethic and would make a good apprentice engineer.

    But he will almost certainly fail maths. Not because he doesn't know things, but because he has experienced sufficient early childhood trauma that when he feels stress his body floods with adrenalin and his brain goes into primate mode.

    I get that there isn't an easy alternative to our current exam system (although Canada seems to manage it) but if we have an education system that judges kids by their ability to produce knowledge under severe stress, we are entrenching disadvantage.

    Thanks for the work you do - it is vital.

    But life produces such stresses and strains. A differing anecdote: one of the calmest, nicest people I know was adopted. He is calm and doesn't get flustered by anything, and has done well in life. His adopted sister (from a different birth mother and father), is... less so. Same adoptive parents, different starts in life.

    I had a lot going on in my life when I was going through GCSE and A levels. I did well at my GCSEs, and horribly at my A-levels. That was my responsibility, not my circumstances - especially as I was in a worse state during my GCSE's than me A-levels...

    People are different. I am against qualifications being purely exam-based, but ability to perform under a little pressure is vital as well.
    I agree with all you say - and reflecting on your and others' replies I'm not sure my original post was that clear.

    It's not that any form of stress causes him to lose the ability to perform. It's the particular form of stress that exams create. He is just an extreme example of what many kids experience - he just says his mind goes blank; he knows that he knows how to e.g. factorise a quadratic, but he can't access that info in the moment.

    Of course that is a weakness, but it shouldn't be one that bars him from a whole range of life choices after a set of exams at 16.
    IMV there is *one* process that is set to define it; something that suits this gentleman might disadvantage someone more exam-based; someone who performs well under stress, or in that sort of situation.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,543

    So with JRM admitting the voter ID change was a voter suppression thing, I wouldn't be surprised to see the police launch a criminal investigation into Sunak, Johnson et al.

    The snivelling little shits that defended this should reflect on their Trumpesque like behaviour.

    I thought voter ID originated at the Electoral Commission?
This discussion has been closed.