… Number 10 has refused to rule out a Tory deal with the DUP or other parties if it fails to secure a majority at the next general election. Rishi Sunak's spokesman said: "I don't think anyone at this stage is going to speculate on the results of the next election…
WTF? Speculating on the Lib Lab coalition of chaos after the next election results is EXACTLY what Sunak did at PMQs 🫣
I am picking up some absolute fury of Brexiteer Tory MPs who went to see chief whip Simon Hart at 5pm tonight about the watering down of the REUL Bill.
Twenty Tory MPs were there to protest. The Chief just listened. He left after 45 mins to go to see Sir Graham Brady, as normal.
Brexiteer Tory MPs cannot understand why the Government has done this.
They point out that not a single Tory MP voted against the REUL ill at the Second or Third Reading.
Two Tories tell me they think the U-turn is part of a deal with the EU for agreeing the Windsor Framework.
The tin-foil wearing MPs might be right but surely the more logical assumption is the REUL Bill would need huge amounts of effort to make it workable rather than a series of banal truisms. We can applaud getting rid of unnecessary regulations but unless these can easily be identified, the bill is mere claptrap.
It's more proof of Rishi Sunak overpromising and under delivering, again.
When do you expect BoJo and the Trussites to challenge him?
Next May.
Edit - Or when Sunak whips his MPs to suspend Boris Johnson for more than 10 days.
He won't whip them to do that. Not when he's overseen this in order to give those same MPs a legal pretext to reject any sanction over 10 days. It'd be a waste of money to do otherwise.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It's a tribute to the country that skin colour isn't a bar to getting into professional jobs, it is your social class.
Yes much progress on the first. But black people still have poor outcomes.
"Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' coronation remark becomes most complained about moment of 2023, Ofcom says
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It's a tribute to the country that skin colour isn't a bar to getting into professional jobs, it is your social class.
A hereditary monarchy means that someone from mine or TSE's ethnic/religious background(s) will never become King or Queen.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It's a tribute to the country that skin colour isn't a bar to getting into professional jobs, it is your social class.
A hereditary monarchy means that someone from mine or TSE's ethnic/religious background(s) will never become King or Queen.
Who'd want to be King instead of PM anyway?
And it wouldn't prevent it on ethnic grounds, religion is the only official blockage.
"Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' coronation remark becomes most complained about moment of 2023, Ofcom says
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It's a tribute to the country that skin colour isn't a bar to getting into professional jobs, it is your social class.
A hereditary monarchy means that someone from mine or TSE's ethnic/religious background(s) will never become King or Queen.
They could.
Prince George marries a non white woman, has kids, and we have our first not white monarch.
But yes, people of our ethnicity cannot get the job because of the de facto colour bar on the job.
I keep on telling you to lay Kemi Badenoch for next Tory leader.
The party will not forgive her betrayal on the EU laws bill.
Even though Kemi announced it, I suspect Rishi will get the blame?
Both will get the blame.
I don't think it's relevant to her chances of winning the leadership. If she has the political skills, she'll be teflon when it comes to something like this, and if she doesn't then she won't win anyway.
I keep on telling you to lay Kemi Badenoch for next Tory leader.
The party will not forgive her betrayal on the EU laws bill.
Even though Kemi announced it, I suspect Rishi will get the blame?
Both will get the blame.
There were 4000 laws, to be siloed into retain, modify, and repeal. We are now told 600 are to be repealed by the end of the year. What we haven't been told, as far as I can see, is how many were inspected (all 4000 or not?) and how many were inspected and retained or set aside for modification.
Of course, if you silo into retain, modify, repeal, and "don't know, too hard, do it later", which is probably what happened, it makes a lot more sense.
@MrHarryCole Non-exhaustive list of people who appear to have said no to being Tory candidate for London Mayor, so far:
Iain Dale Osborne Vaizey Tom Tugs Nick Candy Karen Bradey
Hinting:
Rob Rinder Dan Korski Shaun Bailey Nick Rogers Paul Scully
Running:
Samuel Kasumu Andrew Boff
Shaun Bailey is often seen as a bit of a figure of fun/joke candidate, but getting 45% of the run-off in a Labour city is a pretty strong achievement. The Tories could do worse than have him as a candidate again.
Says a lot about the state of London Conservatives that the list looks like that though. In theory, 2024 gives them an opening; the ULEZ expansion is the sort of issue that can wind up London outside the North/South Circular, but even that doesn't look like enough to get a Sack Saddiq campaign going.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
What is class? is a PB repeater that I don't wish to trigger but for me - in its serious political sense - it's about money rather than all of that 'using a fish knife' fun to talk about stuff. So you have rich and poor and shades of in between.
The “using a fish knife” thing is etiquette, class is not embarrassing someone by pointing out that they aren’t using it correctly.
Lol, yep, all that sort of thing. We always drift off there because it's fun. But class is about money and power. Those 2 things being intensely and positively correlated.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Utterly misleading. Degree apprenticeships are based around clinical training in addition to university based scholarship, and will usually take longer to achieve the qualifications. They will not be acting as doctors straight from A levels, anymore than a medical student is during experiential clinical placements.
Not so misleading. Apprenticeship doctors may eventually be as well qualified as those going through the traditional route but the key difference is that they will be unleashed on patients from day 1 while most doctors have to go through the training first. Which may or may not be a good idea, but it's definitely a big difference.
Which proves you don’t know much about training medics. All UG doctors will be getting clinical placement during their degrees. What they are not doing is acting as doctors. They will start with experiential visits and move on from there as there training allows.
Maybe not, but I understand the difference between paying people for a job of work and not paying them, which is the difference between these two classes of trainee doctors.
Which raises questions about what they are being paid for, why is this different from doctors on the standard route and how medical degrees should be funded. I further suspect these questions are getting conflated. If getting experience as salaried employees is a good thing, why isn't everyone doing it? On the hand if the issue is the unaffordability of medical degrees, shouldn't we be focusing on providing bursaries?
"Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' coronation remark becomes most complained about moment of 2023, Ofcom says
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
On the subject of conventional wisdom based on dodgy evidence, interesting piece on the questionable causational link between cannabis use and schizophrenia.
It’s very hard to get an honest debate about cannabis use. David Nutt was hounded out from his advisor role all those years ago for pointing out relative risks cf to other activities such as horse riding. A more mature society might think about whether legalising and ensuring quality of product for ALL drugs might not be the best way to minimise harms. As it is, my collaborator, who receives lots of drug samples for analysis, is constantly encountering extremely odd things, usually nothing like what they purport to be. My favourite recently is a sample of ‘skra’ that is actually a mix of ibuprofen and paracetamol… That one’s not dangerous, but many are. Many older folk have fond memories of weed. The modern incarnation is vastly stronger in THC content, and bears no relation to what Nicki Campbell and Tony Blair smoked in the 1970’s. Is this an issue? Hard to say because it’s really hard to do research in the current puritan environment.
I think cannabis use is a significant part of the explanation of why working class boys do so badly at school. It is quite endemic in Leicesters schools, with its characteristic effects of lassitude, paranoia and aggression.
Being doped up to the eyeballs inhibits social mobility and economic productivity. It ain't a successful formula for either individual or country.
I've never thought of aggression as an effect of cannabis, are you sure you aren't thinking of coke? I imagine it might be hard to seperate cause and effect, since heavy drug use is often a form of self-medication, speaking to wider mental health and environmental problems that also contribute to poor educational performance. Plus when I was a student all the massive caners were posh boys from private school. I imagine that getting stoned all the time probably isn't great for one's ability to learn. I've never been a fan of the stuff personally. But I think the poor performance at school of working class kids probably has many sources. Living in a highly class conscious society with the knowledge that others look down on you because of your accent and other trivial class signifiers, and that the cards are massively stacked against you even if you do work hard because of private schools and other barriers to opportunity probably doesn't help.
@MrHarryCole Non-exhaustive list of people who appear to have said no to being Tory candidate for London Mayor, so far:
Iain Dale Osborne Vaizey Tom Tugs Nick Candy Karen Bradey
Hinting:
Rob Rinder Dan Korski Shaun Bailey Nick Rogers Paul Scully
Running:
Samuel Kasumu Andrew Boff
Shaun Bailey is often seen as a bit of a figure of fun/joke candidate, but getting 45% of the run-off in a Labour city is a pretty strong achievement. The Tories could do worse than have him as a candidate again.
Says a lot about the state of London Conservatives that the list looks like that though. In theory, 2024 gives them an opening; the ULEZ expansion is the sort of issue that can wind up London outside the North/South Circular, but even that doesn't look like enough to get a Sack Saddiq campaign going.
Paul Scully not the worst choice. Think he could have a squeak with ULEZ and galvanisng the outer Londoners.
@MrHarryCole Non-exhaustive list of people who appear to have said no to being Tory candidate for London Mayor, so far:
Iain Dale Osborne Vaizey Tom Tugs Nick Candy Karen Bradey
Hinting:
Rob Rinder Dan Korski Shaun Bailey Nick Rogers Paul Scully
Running:
Samuel Kasumu Andrew Boff
Shaun Bailey is often seen as a bit of a figure of fun/joke candidate, but getting 45% of the run-off in a Labour city is a pretty strong achievement. The Tories could do worse than have him as a candidate again.
Bailey's effort, while better than Zak Goldsmith, was about the same as Steven Norris in his second election against Ken Livingstone in 2004 and let's not forget, Bailey lost by over 10 points in the run off.
The 2021 round of local elections (which was basically both the 2020 and 2021 elections run together) had a projected national vote of Conservative 36%, Labour 29% and Liberal Democrat 17% so compared to last Thursday's poll there's been an 8% swing from Conservative to Labour since 2021.
IF the polling numbers this time next year are akin to where we are now, it looks like another round of Conservative losses - the one saving grace is it's a much smaller round of contests than last week.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
What is class? is a PB repeater that I don't wish to trigger but for me - in its serious political sense - it's about money rather than all of that 'using a fish knife' fun to talk about stuff. So you have rich and poor and shades of in between.
I think you have used the phrase often though have you not? Am I mixing you up with someone else, but did you not describe yourself as such?
Yes, I have done - but I said 'poorer non professional background' on this thread.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It's a tribute to the country that skin colour isn't a bar to getting into professional jobs, it is your social class.
A hereditary monarchy means that someone from mine or TSE's ethnic/religious background(s) will never become King or Queen.
They could.
Prince George marries a non white woman, has kids, and we have our first not white monarch.
But yes, people of our ethnicity cannot get the job because of the de facto colour bar on the job.
Erm, what about the Sussex family? They're surely one helicopter crash from Buck House, are they not?
I keep on telling you to lay Kemi Badenoch for next Tory leader.
The party will not forgive her betrayal on the EU laws bill.
Even though Kemi announced it, I suspect Rishi will get the blame?
Both will get the blame.
Rishi's stupid promise, though.
Once again, Brexit turns out to be easy to say, much harder to do. As long as talking a good Tough On Europe game wins advancement in the Conservative Party, we will continue to have a line of rubes making promises they turn out to be unable to keep.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
What is class? is a PB repeater that I don't wish to trigger but for me - in its serious political sense - it's about money rather than all of that 'using a fish knife' fun to talk about stuff. So you have rich and poor and shades of in between.
I think you have used the phrase often though have you not? Am I mixing you up with someone else, but did you not describe yourself as such?
Yes, I have done - but I said 'poorer non professional background' on this thread.
Excellent. I hope that you have removed the ghastly phrase from your otherwise relatively broad lexicon (well for a chartered accountant anyway)
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
The pundit, er, classes, always seem more obsessed by class than anyone I've ever met in real life. But that might be just my class talking.
I always find it a little odd when people say "I am proud to be working class" when they are actually a very well off BBC producer or novelist or such like. Perhaps it is code for "look how clever I was to come from this humble background and yet be soooo successful"
I guess I find the concept of being "proud" about anything that you did not chose a little peculiar.
Depends on how you define class. Some people would draw one line: those whose income is from work, and those whose income is from wealth. I personally find that the most illuminating distinction rather than noodling around in all these nanoscopic details about whether a self-employed plumber is middle class, upper working class or whatever.
And by that token, being proud of making your own way rather than leeching off rent is something that makes sense. A lot of sense.
Yes that's meaningful. But a high earner will amass wealth and the yield from that can soon enough become a big part of their income.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
The pundit, er, classes, always seem more obsessed by class than anyone I've ever met in real life. But that might be just my class talking.
I always find it a little odd when people say "I am proud to be working class" when they are actually a very well off BBC producer or novelist or such like. Perhaps it is code for "look how clever I was to come from this humble background and yet be soooo successful"
I guess I find the concept of being "proud" about anything that you did not chose a little peculiar.
Depends on how you define class. Some people would draw one line: those whose income is from work, and those whose income is from wealth. I personally find that the most illuminating distinction rather than noodling around in all these nanoscopic details about whether a self-employed plumber is middle class, upper working class or whatever.
And by that token, being proud of making your own way rather than leeching off rent is something that makes sense. A lot of sense.
Yes that's meaningful. But a high earner will amass wealth and the yield from that can soon enough become a big part of their income.
You can take the graduate out of the accountant, but you can't take the accountant out of the graduate eh Kina?
"Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' coronation remark becomes most complained about moment of 2023, Ofcom says
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
"Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' coronation remark becomes most complained about moment of 2023, Ofcom says
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Utterly misleading. Degree apprenticeships are based around clinical training in addition to university based scholarship, and will usually take longer to achieve the qualifications. They will not be acting as doctors straight from A levels, anymore than a medical student is during experiential clinical placements.
Not so misleading. Apprenticeship doctors may eventually be as well qualified as those going through the traditional route but the key difference is that they will be unleashed on patients from day 1 while most doctors have to go through the training first. Which may or may not be a good idea, but it's definitely a big difference.
Which proves you don’t know much about training medics. All UG doctors will be getting clinical placement during their degrees. What they are not doing is acting as doctors. They will start with experiential visits and move on from there as there training allows.
Maybe not, but I understand the difference between paying people for a job of work and not paying them, which is the difference between these two classes of trainee doctors.
Which raises questions about what they are being paid for, why is this different from doctors on the standard route and how medical degrees should be funded. I further suspect these questions are getting conflated. If getting experience as salaried employees is a good thing, why isn't everyone doing it? On the hand if the issue is the unaffordability of medical degrees, shouldn't we be focusing on providing bursaries?
This new class of doctor chimes with the apparent view of government that the medical profession is overqualified for a job that could soon be done by the next iteration of ChatGPT. Consider it alongside this week's proposal that many prescriptions can be provided by pharmacists rather than doctors. Why bother teaching biochemical and anatomical trivia when most doctors will never wield a scalpel in anger?
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
What is class? is a PB repeater that I don't wish to trigger but for me - in its serious political sense - it's about money rather than all of that 'using a fish knife' fun to talk about stuff. So you have rich and poor and shades of in between.
I think you have used the phrase often though have you not? Am I mixing you up with someone else, but did you not describe yourself as such?
Yes, I have done - but I said 'poorer non professional background' on this thread.
Excellent. I hope that you have removed the ghastly phrase from your otherwise relatively broad lexicon (well for a chartered accountant anyway)
The Nigel regime is all about policing other people's language.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It's a tribute to the country that skin colour isn't a bar to getting into professional jobs, it is your social class.
Yes much progress on the first. But black people still have poor outcomes.
Even old Etonians made Chancellor.
Ah but he isn't really bl ... no no, rewind, I don't want to lose the PB whip!
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It's a tribute to the country that skin colour isn't a bar to getting into professional jobs, it is your social class.
A hereditary monarchy means that someone from mine or TSE's ethnic/religious background(s) will never become King or Queen.
Who'd want to be King instead of PM anyway?
And it wouldn't prevent it on ethnic grounds, religion is the only official blockage.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
The pundit, er, classes, always seem more obsessed by class than anyone I've ever met in real life. But that might be just my class talking.
I always find it a little odd when people say "I am proud to be working class" when they are actually a very well off BBC producer or novelist or such like. Perhaps it is code for "look how clever I was to come from this humble background and yet be soooo successful"
I guess I find the concept of being "proud" about anything that you did not chose a little peculiar.
Depends on how you define class. Some people would draw one line: those whose income is from work, and those whose income is from wealth. I personally find that the most illuminating distinction rather than noodling around in all these nanoscopic details about whether a self-employed plumber is middle class, upper working class or whatever.
And by that token, being proud of making your own way rather than leeching off rent is something that makes sense. A lot of sense.
Yes that's meaningful. But a high earner will amass wealth and the yield from that can soon enough become a big part of their income.
The catch being the degree to which that no longer happens.
Unless you are a very long way up the professional tree, having a maiden aunt who leaves you the proceeds of her flat in Islington outweighs almost anything people can save from the proceeds of work.
We really shouldn't have let things get this far out of hand.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
What is class? is a PB repeater that I don't wish to trigger but for me - in its serious political sense - it's about money rather than all of that 'using a fish knife' fun to talk about stuff. So you have rich and poor and shades of in between.
I think you have used the phrase often though have you not? Am I mixing you up with someone else, but did you not describe yourself as such?
Yes, I have done - but I said 'poorer non professional background' on this thread.
Excellent. I hope that you have removed the ghastly phrase from your otherwise relatively broad lexicon (well for a chartered accountant anyway)
The Nigel regime is all about policing other people's language.
I am not sure I like the sound of "The Nigel Regime". It sounds like a highly unpleasant fascist dictatorship in a dystopian parallel universe where Farage won a landslide and then decided to invade Ireland.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
Surgeons in the UK are referred to as "Dr" until they get a consultancy, and then they get the Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms. They are very big on hierarchies.
On the subject of conventional wisdom based on dodgy evidence, interesting piece on the questionable causational link between cannabis use and schizophrenia.
It’s very hard to get an honest debate about cannabis use. David Nutt was hounded out from his advisor role all those years ago for pointing out relative risks cf to other activities such as horse riding. A more mature society might think about whether legalising and ensuring quality of product for ALL drugs might not be the best way to minimise harms. As it is, my collaborator, who receives lots of drug samples for analysis, is constantly encountering extremely odd things, usually nothing like what they purport to be. My favourite recently is a sample of ‘skra’ that is actually a mix of ibuprofen and paracetamol… That one’s not dangerous, but many are. Many older folk have fond memories of weed. The modern incarnation is vastly stronger in THC content, and bears no relation to what Nicki Campbell and Tony Blair smoked in the 1970’s. Is this an issue? Hard to say because it’s really hard to do research in the current puritan environment.
I think cannabis use is a significant part of the explanation of why working class boys do so badly at school. It is quite endemic in Leicesters schools, with its characteristic effects of lassitude, paranoia and aggression.
Being doped up to the eyeballs inhibits social mobility and economic productivity. It ain't a successful formula for either individual or country.
I've never thought of aggression as an effect of cannabis, are you sure you aren't thinking of coke? I imagine it might be hard to seperate cause and effect, since heavy drug use is often a form of self-medication, speaking to wider mental health and environmental problems that also contribute to poor educational performance. Plus when I was a student all the massive caners were posh boys from private school. I imagine that getting stoned all the time probably isn't great for one's ability to learn. I've never been a fan of the stuff personally. But I think the poor performance at school of working class kids probably has many sources. Living in a highly class conscious society with the knowledge that others look down on you because of your accent and other trivial class signifiers, and that the cards are massively stacked against you even if you do work hard because of private schools and other barriers to opportunity probably doesn't help.
No, I think paranoia and aggression are part of the personality change that we see in long term cannabis users, though generally short of psychosis. While actually stoned they are not generally aggressive.
The chronic coke heads that I have seen tend more to jittery personalities and have difficulty concentrating, but can be aggressive when high.
And remember, Omnisis who last polled the Labour lead at 21% also correctly called the local election NEV lead at 9%.
Didn’t Omnisis only poll those areas voting? In which case the total vote lead is what to compare the poll against, not the BBC/PNS lead of 9% (the Sky/NEV lead was just 7%, which everyone seems to gloss over).
"without falling prey for various rape myths which juries are said to be prone to. The evidence for these myths affecting jurors is a pilot based on mock trials (not real ones)."
I am not a lawyer (tm). AIUI in England (and I presume Scotland, though not the US?), jurors cannot be questioned about *why* they decided one way or the other. Is this correct, and if so, what alternative is there to mock trials when you want to try to understand *why* juries vote the way they do?
(Apols if my understanding is incorrect.)
The reason for not getting the jurors to explain their reasons is that it undermines the verdict.
The problem with the mock trials pilot is two-fold:-
1. People behave differently in pretend situations to real life. In reality, good counsel - whether prosecuting or defence - get a good sense of how the jury is thinking, what is worrying them etc, both from their demeanour in court and the questions they ask (through the judge) and adjust their presentation accordingly.
2. Here - and I read the paper from the 2 academics which led to this proposal - it seemed to me to work backwards from the conclusion it already had ie men aren't convicted because jurors have myths about rape. That is not a sound basis to rip up the jury system.
Somewhere on my shelves I have a book written by a juror about his experiences which, without revealing secrets of the jury room, is a very useful account of the whole process and how jurors approach their task.
Great article. Especially as it’s not from a crude “men’s rights” perspective, but a legal one. From a woman who cares about women’s rights. The SNP’s proposals are clearly deeply problematic. I don’t know what the solution is, however.
Seems to me, in the broad sweep of history, we ditched religious marriage as the mechanism for establishing sexual consent, and haven’t really figured out what to replace it with. Not sure lawyers, the legal system and, ultimately, our current crop of politicians have the answers.
I think every society needs a coherent, easily understood - and broadly considered “fair” mechanism for establishing sexual consent, to function.
Any ideas, anyone?
Thanks again, @Cyclefree your output on here is outstanding.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
Surgeons in the UK are referred to as "Dr" until they get a consultancy, and then they get the Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms. They are very big on hierarchies.
No, they become Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms when they pass their professional exams, so some trainees are Dr and some Mx. In Scotland all are Dr.
Worth noting that a common path to a Consultant job is CESR as opposed to CCT via a structured training scheme, the first being by demonstrating equivalent experience, so there is precedent for Dr Apprenticeships.
I think Cyclefree's point about the inadequacy of investigations is the strongest single argument around this.
Whether or not juries are subject to bias will always be contentious, but is an extremely difficult area objectively to research - and the question she raises about judges being subject to their own biases is eminently reasonable.
What's beyond question is the patchy - or worse - provision of police investigation, and the enormous delays rape cases are subject to. Doing something about that would, naturally, involve a large commitment of additional resources. But such an effort would unquestionably be fair to both alleged victims and perpetrators.
Ostensibly easy fixes like this one are no substitute for that.
The attack on judicial independence is the most offensive, legally, constitutionally and politically.
Blair wanted to get rid of juries for big fraud trials. I remember him using the word "nobbled" in the House of Commons and for some reason it made me laugh.
I can see the arguments for getting rid of juries for fraud trials, some of them take ages (some have taken two years) and it is unrealistic to expect jurors to give up their time for so long.
Then there's the complexity angle.
Very very strongly disagree with this. In the end fraud cases are about honesty and juries are well able to assess that.
The following faculties have so far confirmed they will be boycotting juryless courts.
Aberdeen, Airdrie, Ayr, Borders, Dumfries, Dundee, Edinburgh, Falkirk, Glasgow, Hamilton, Highland & Moray, Paisley, Perth and West Lothian.
Am I right in assuming that anyone convicted in one of these juryless trials will have the right to appeal up to the Supreme Court in London? I would hope and expect that a lot of convictions will be deemed unsafe.
The problem is that by making the system inherently unsafe they could actually end up with a lot more guilty defendents ultimately goingfree on appeal.
The challenge will be on the basis that the court is not independent and impartial and, therefore, a breach of a defendant's Article 6 rights. At that point the whole Act fails as ultra vires Holyrood's powers - since under devolution Holyrood has no power to pass legislation which would put the U.K. in breach of international obligations, like the ECHR.
You do have to wonder who is giving legal advice to the SNP government these days.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
I think it unlikely that they will progress more swiftly if they have to pass the same exams.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
. ...A more mature society might think about whether legalising and ensuring quality of product for ALL drugs might not be the best way to minimise harms...
There is a rather interesting quirk to this. Legal, regulated, quality-controlled drug X will be more expensive than illegal, unregulated, adulterated drug X. So the criminal classes will continue to sell the illegal ones because the profit is greater. You have to discourage this by punishing unlicensed sellers and fining adulterated product. In short, you have to police the market.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
I do remember reading a few years ago in a book on the history of medicine that there was a year in the mid 1920s that was quite momentous in terms of public health. It was the first time in the UK that statistically someone who was ill or injured had more chance of surviving if they saw a doctor than if they didn't. Whilst I understand that crossover had to happen sometime I was amazed that it was so recent in history - only a century ago or so. I would love to find it again.
On the face of it that's incredible, but I read it out to my wife and she wasn't surprised at all, simply saying, "antibiotics and Lister".
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
What is class? is a PB repeater that I don't wish to trigger but for me - in its serious political sense - it's about money rather than all of that 'using a fish knife' fun to talk about stuff. So you have rich and poor and shades of in between.
I think you have used the phrase often though have you not? Am I mixing you up with someone else, but did you not describe yourself as such?
Yes, I have done - but I said 'poorer non professional background' on this thread.
Excellent. I hope that you have removed the ghastly phrase from your otherwise relatively broad lexicon (well for a chartered accountant anyway)
The Nigel regime is all about policing other people's language.
I am not sure I like the sound of "The Nigel Regime". It sounds like a highly unpleasant fascist dictatorship in a dystopian parallel universe where Farage won a landslide and then decided to invade Ireland.
Suddenly the XTC song "We're only making plans for Nigel" takes on a much darker hue. A think tank in this alt-history Farageverse.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
I do remember reading a few years ago in a book on the history of medicine that there was a year in the mid 1920s that was quite momentous in terms of public health. It was the first time in the UK that statistically someone who was ill or injured had more chance of surviving if they saw a doctor than if they didn't. Whilst I understand that crossover had to happen sometime I was amazed that it was so recent in history - only a century ago or so. I would love to find it again.
On the face of it that's incredible, but I read it out to my wife and she wasn't surprised at all, simply saying, "antibiotics and Lister".
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
I think it unlikely that they will progress more swiftly if they have to pass the same exams.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
Surely the answer to all is this is increased and earlier specialisation, with priority for the areas of medicine that are most under resourced?
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
I do remember reading a few years ago in a book on the history of medicine that there was a year in the mid 1920s that was quite momentous in terms of public health. It was the first time in the UK that statistically someone who was ill or injured had more chance of surviving if they saw a doctor than if they didn't. Whilst I understand that crossover had to happen sometime I was amazed that it was so recent in history - only a century ago or so. I would love to find it again.
On the face of it that's incredible, but I read it out to my wife and she wasn't surprised at all, simply saying, "antibiotics and Lister".
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
I think it depends very much what was wrong with the patient. Even in the pre-anaesthesia days with no knowledge of sepsis there were quite good survival rates for battlefield injuries and broken bones. Less so for many of the more medical illnesses such as heart, chest and gut complaints etc, where probably much harm was done.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
I think it unlikely that they will progress more swiftly if they have to pass the same exams.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
Surely the answer to all is this is increased and earlier specialisation, with priority for the areas of medicine that are most under resourced?
Though paradoxically the areas most underresourced are the generalists who have to know a bit of everything.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
I do remember reading a few years ago in a book on the history of medicine that there was a year in the mid 1920s that was quite momentous in terms of public health. It was the first time in the UK that statistically someone who was ill or injured had more chance of surviving if they saw a doctor than if they didn't. Whilst I understand that crossover had to happen sometime I was amazed that it was so recent in history - only a century ago or so. I would love to find it again.
On the face of it that's incredible, but I read it out to my wife and she wasn't surprised at all, simply saying, "antibiotics and Lister".
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
I think it depends very much what was wrong with the patient. Even in the pre-anaesthesia days with no knowledge of sepsis there were quite good survival rates for battlefield injuries and broken bones. Less so for many of the more medical illnesses such as heart, chest and gut complaints etc, where probably much harm was done.
Wasn't that why homeopathy was so respectable for so long? Mucky doctors cutting patients open and poking around did so much harm that soothing words and sugar water led to better outcomes?
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
The pundit, er, classes, always seem more obsessed by class than anyone I've ever met in real life. But that might be just my class talking.
I always find it a little odd when people say "I am proud to be working class" when they are actually a very well off BBC producer or novelist or such like. Perhaps it is code for "look how clever I was to come from this humble background and yet be soooo successful"
I guess I find the concept of being "proud" about anything that you did not chose a little peculiar.
Depends on how you define class. Some people would draw one line: those whose income is from work, and those whose income is from wealth. I personally find that the most illuminating distinction rather than noodling around in all these nanoscopic details about whether a self-employed plumber is middle class, upper working class or whatever.
And by that token, being proud of making your own way rather than leeching off rent is something that makes sense. A lot of sense.
Yes that's meaningful. But a high earner will amass wealth and the yield from that can soon enough become a big part of their income.
The catch being the degree to which that no longer happens.
Unless you are a very long way up the professional tree, having a maiden aunt who leaves you the proceeds of her flat in Islington outweighs almost anything people can save from the proceeds of work.
We really shouldn't have let things get this far out of hand.
Yes that's true. Amassing a large lump sum through work is unattainable for all but a few.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
I think it unlikely that they will progress more swiftly if they have to pass the same exams.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
A problem is that the current system is not producing routinely stellar doctors and GPs. Some are awful. The question is whether any changes would alter the ratio of good :: bad doctors. The article's paywalled, so I cannot access it, which means the following might be totally off-piste.
IA obviously NAE, but it seems to me there are many classes of 'doctors': from one working in A&E, to one involved in medical research, to ones who do the same sort of tasks day to day, to the House-style miracle diagnostician. I would not be in the least bit surprised if current medical degrees taught you a broad background, but a vast amount of the learning happened on the job afterwards. As happens with all degrees.
I don't have a degree, and I would like to think I did fairly well in my career despite (because?) of this. I am in favour of people without degrees getting chances; and certainly against them having doors closed to them. But then I think of someone without a degree trying to diagnose an illness I might have, and I worry. But then again, doctors have proved rather poor in that situation in the past...
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
I do remember reading a few years ago in a book on the history of medicine that there was a year in the mid 1920s that was quite momentous in terms of public health. It was the first time in the UK that statistically someone who was ill or injured had more chance of surviving if they saw a doctor than if they didn't. Whilst I understand that crossover had to happen sometime I was amazed that it was so recent in history - only a century ago or so. I would love to find it again.
On the face of it that's incredible, but I read it out to my wife and she wasn't surprised at all, simply saying, "antibiotics and Lister".
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
I think it depends very much what was wrong with the patient. Even in the pre-anaesthesia days with no knowledge of sepsis there were quite good survival rates for battlefield injuries and broken bones. Less so for many of the more medical illnesses such as heart, chest and gut complaints etc, where probably much harm was done.
There was a thing on the telly the other day where a man in India had half his face clawed off by a tiger. It had "healed" in the sense the open wound was stable, but the effect was horrific. He walked around with half a scarf around half his face. Somebody always recovers.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
What is class? is a PB repeater that I don't wish to trigger but for me - in its serious political sense - it's about money rather than all of that 'using a fish knife' fun to talk about stuff. So you have rich and poor and shades of in between.
I think you have used the phrase often though have you not? Am I mixing you up with someone else, but did you not describe yourself as such?
Yes, I have done - but I said 'poorer non professional background' on this thread.
Excellent. I hope that you have removed the ghastly phrase from your otherwise relatively broad lexicon (well for a chartered accountant anyway)
The Nigel regime is all about policing other people's language.
I am not sure I like the sound of "The Nigel Regime". It sounds like a highly unpleasant fascist dictatorship in a dystopian parallel universe where Farage won a landslide and then decided to invade Ireland.
Nigelism as the name of a political doctrine has a nice ring to it.
I am picking up some absolute fury of Brexiteer Tory MPs who went to see chief whip Simon Hart at 5pm tonight about the watering down of the REUL Bill.
Twenty Tory MPs were there to protest. The Chief just listened. He left after 45 mins to go to see Sir Graham Brady, as normal.
Brexiteer Tory MPs cannot understand why the Government has done this.
They point out that not a single Tory MP voted against the REUL ill at the Second or Third Reading.
Two Tories tell me they think the U-turn is part of a deal with the EU for agreeing the Windsor Framework.
The tin-foil wearing MPs might be right but surely the more logical assumption is the REUL Bill would need huge amounts of effort to make it workable rather than a series of banal truisms. We can applaud getting rid of unnecessary regulations but unless these can easily be identified, the bill is mere claptrap.
If it's claptrap, why have the EU made dropping parts of it a condition of their 'concessions' toward the Windsor Framework? The framework agreement is turning into a thoroughgoing disaster. It has already destroyed the NI protocol bill, by which the UK Government would have exercised its legal right to disallow parts of the protocol. Now it's also destroying the ability of the UK Government to overturn EU laws that shouldn't apply to the UK anyway.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
I do remember reading a few years ago in a book on the history of medicine that there was a year in the mid 1920s that was quite momentous in terms of public health. It was the first time in the UK that statistically someone who was ill or injured had more chance of surviving if they saw a doctor than if they didn't. Whilst I understand that crossover had to happen sometime I was amazed that it was so recent in history - only a century ago or so. I would love to find it again.
On the face of it that's incredible, but I read it out to my wife and she wasn't surprised at all, simply saying, "antibiotics and Lister".
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
I think it depends very much what was wrong with the patient. Even in the pre-anaesthesia days with no knowledge of sepsis there were quite good survival rates for battlefield injuries and broken bones. Less so for many of the more medical illnesses such as heart, chest and gut complaints etc, where probably much harm was done.
Wasn't that why homeopathy was so respectable for so long? Mucky doctors cutting patients open and poking around did so much harm that soothing words and sugar water led to better outcomes?
Certainly iatrogenic* illnesses have always been an issue in medicine.
*physician induced. See the works of Ivan Illiich, one of the great thinkers of the modern age.
I keep on telling you to lay Kemi Badenoch for next Tory leader.
The party will not forgive her betrayal on the EU laws bill.
Even though Kemi announced it, I suspect Rishi will get the blame?
Both will get the blame.
Badenoch is being utterly feeble about the Post Office bonus brouhaha. An internal investigation by someone on the Remuneration Committee, FFS! It should not be marking its own homework.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
I think it unlikely that they will progress more swiftly if they have to pass the same exams.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
A problem is that the current system is not producing routinely stellar doctors and GPs. Some are awful. The question is whether any changes would alter the ratio of good :: bad doctors. The article's paywalled, so I cannot access it, which means the following might be totally off-piste.
IA obviously NAE, but it seems to me there are many classes of 'doctors': from one working in A&E, to one involved in medical research, to ones who do the same sort of tasks day to day, to the House-style miracle diagnostician. I would not be in the least bit surprised if current medical degrees taught you a broad background, but a vast amount of the learning happened on the job afterwards. As happens with all degrees.
I don't have a degree, and I would like to think I did fairly well in my career despite (because?) of this. I am in favour of people without degrees getting chances; and certainly against them having doors closed to them. But then I think of someone without a degree trying to diagnose an illness I might have, and I worry. But then again, doctors have proved rather poor in that situation in the past...
Robert Jenrick being eviscerated by Chrishnan Guru-Murthy.
No wonder the Sunak regime is falling apart.
Sunak sounded like a rank amateur at PMQs today.
When it comes to actual politics, Rishi is an amateur. Catapulted into a safe seat, so he's never had the joy of trudging the streets of Grimup North in a futile attempt to get people to vote for him. An MP for not very long at all, then Chancellor, then PM. There's not really anything in his CV to prepare him for the fate he's now experiencing.
For the sake of balance, the greenness of Starmer should also be pointed out. But he's not trying to run the country at the same time as getting better at politics.
I am picking up some absolute fury of Brexiteer Tory MPs who went to see chief whip Simon Hart at 5pm tonight about the watering down of the REUL Bill.
Twenty Tory MPs were there to protest. The Chief just listened. He left after 45 mins to go to see Sir Graham Brady, as normal.
Brexiteer Tory MPs cannot understand why the Government has done this.
They point out that not a single Tory MP voted against the REUL ill at the Second or Third Reading.
Two Tories tell me they think the U-turn is part of a deal with the EU for agreeing the Windsor Framework.
"Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' coronation remark becomes most complained about moment of 2023, Ofcom says
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
I think it unlikely that they will progress more swiftly if they have to pass the same exams.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
A problem is that the current system is not producing routinely stellar doctors and GPs. Some are awful. The question is whether any changes would alter the ratio of good :: bad doctors. The article's paywalled, so I cannot access it, which means the following might be totally off-piste.
IA obviously NAE, but it seems to me there are many classes of 'doctors': from one working in A&E, to one involved in medical research, to ones who do the same sort of tasks day to day, to the House-style miracle diagnostician. I would not be in the least bit surprised if current medical degrees taught you a broad background, but a vast amount of the learning happened on the job afterwards. As happens with all degrees.
I don't have a degree, and I would like to think I did fairly well in my career despite (because?) of this. I am in favour of people without degrees getting chances; and certainly against them having doors closed to them. But then I think of someone without a degree trying to diagnose an illness I might have, and I worry. But then again, doctors have proved rather poor in that situation in the past...
I am picking up some absolute fury of Brexiteer Tory MPs who went to see chief whip Simon Hart at 5pm tonight about the watering down of the REUL Bill.
Twenty Tory MPs were there to protest. The Chief just listened. He left after 45 mins to go to see Sir Graham Brady, as normal.
Brexiteer Tory MPs cannot understand why the Government has done this.
They point out that not a single Tory MP voted against the REUL ill at the Second or Third Reading.
Two Tories tell me they think the U-turn is part of a deal with the EU for agreeing the Windsor Framework.
Sunak to his credit decided the headbangers in his party could be safely ignored. I hope he sticks with this assessment.
Sunak has made progress in healing the rift with the EU , not least with the WF, and he has the next 18 months to sideline the ERG and take the party back to a much closer relationship with the EU
I am picking up some absolute fury of Brexiteer Tory MPs who went to see chief whip Simon Hart at 5pm tonight about the watering down of the REUL Bill.
Twenty Tory MPs were there to protest. The Chief just listened. He left after 45 mins to go to see Sir Graham Brady, as normal.
Brexiteer Tory MPs cannot understand why the Government has done this.
They point out that not a single Tory MP voted against the REUL ill at the Second or Third Reading.
Two Tories tell me they think the U-turn is part of a deal with the EU for agreeing the Windsor Framework.
The tin-foil wearing MPs might be right but surely the more logical assumption is the REUL Bill would need huge amounts of effort to make it workable rather than a series of banal truisms. We can applaud getting rid of unnecessary regulations but unless these can easily be identified, the bill is mere claptrap.
If it's claptrap, why have the EU made dropping parts of it a condition of their 'concessions' toward the Windsor Framework? The framework agreement is turning into a thoroughgoing disaster. It has already destroyed the NI protocol bill, by which the UK Government would have exercised its legal right to disallow parts of the protocol. Now it's also destroying the ability of the UK Government to overturn EU laws that shouldn't apply to the UK anyway.
Any evidence that the EU have made dropping parts of the bill a condition for signing the Windsor agreement? Two Conservative MPs saying so isn't evidence in itself.
"Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' coronation remark becomes most complained about moment of 2023, Ofcom says
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
I do remember reading a few years ago in a book on the history of medicine that there was a year in the mid 1920s that was quite momentous in terms of public health. It was the first time in the UK that statistically someone who was ill or injured had more chance of surviving if they saw a doctor than if they didn't. Whilst I understand that crossover had to happen sometime I was amazed that it was so recent in history - only a century ago or so. I would love to find it again.
On the face of it that's incredible, but I read it out to my wife and she wasn't surprised at all, simply saying, "antibiotics and Lister".
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
I think it depends very much what was wrong with the patient. Even in the pre-anaesthesia days with no knowledge of sepsis there were quite good survival rates for battlefield injuries and broken bones. Less so for many of the more medical illnesses such as heart, chest and gut complaints etc, where probably much harm was done.
Wasn't that why homeopathy was so respectable for so long? Mucky doctors cutting patients open and poking around did so much harm that soothing words and sugar water led to better outcomes?
Certainly iatrogenic* illnesses have always been an issue in medicine.
*physician induced. See the works of Ivan Illiich, one of the great thinkers of the modern age.
Deciding to look at EU legislation at Parliaments leisure rather than arbitrarily getting rid of nearly 3000 laws seems like a sensible thing to do to me...
However Rishi's problem is that putting all EU legislation through the shredder was a key plank of his "Ready For Rishi" leadership campaign.
He once again looks sneaky, shifty and untrustworthy... Rishi is the pound shop Boris.
Robert Jenrick being eviscerated by Chrishnan Guru-Murthy.
No wonder the Sunak regime is falling apart.
Sunak sounded like a rank amateur at PMQs today.
When it comes to actual politics, Rishi is an amateur. Catapulted into a safe seat, so he's never had the joy of trudging the streets of Grimup North in a futile attempt to get people to vote for him. An MP for not very long at all, then Chancellor, then PM. There's not really anything in his CV to prepare him for the fate he's now experiencing.
For the sake of balance, the greenness of Starmer should also be pointed out. But he's not trying to run the country at the same time as getting better at politics.
It's interesting that both main parties are run by skilled technocrats who are far from natural politicians.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
I think it unlikely that they will progress more swiftly if they have to pass the same exams.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
A problem is that the current system is not producing routinely stellar doctors and GPs. Some are awful. The question is whether any changes would alter the ratio of good :: bad doctors. The article's paywalled, so I cannot access it, which means the following might be totally off-piste.
IA obviously NAE, but it seems to me there are many classes of 'doctors': from one working in A&E, to one involved in medical research, to ones who do the same sort of tasks day to day, to the House-style miracle diagnostician. I would not be in the least bit surprised if current medical degrees taught you a broad background, but a vast amount of the learning happened on the job afterwards. As happens with all degrees.
I don't have a degree, and I would like to think I did fairly well in my career despite (because?) of this. I am in favour of people without degrees getting chances; and certainly against them having doors closed to them. But then I think of someone without a degree trying to diagnose an illness I might have, and I worry. But then again, doctors have proved rather poor in that situation in the past...
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
I think it unlikely that they will progress more swiftly if they have to pass the same exams.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
A problem is that the current system is not producing routinely stellar doctors and GPs. Some are awful. The question is whether any changes would alter the ratio of good :: bad doctors. The article's paywalled, so I cannot access it, which means the following might be totally off-piste.
IA obviously NAE, but it seems to me there are many classes of 'doctors': from one working in A&E, to one involved in medical research, to ones who do the same sort of tasks day to day, to the House-style miracle diagnostician. I would not be in the least bit surprised if current medical degrees taught you a broad background, but a vast amount of the learning happened on the job afterwards. As happens with all degrees.
I don't have a degree, and I would like to think I did fairly well in my career despite (because?) of this. I am in favour of people without degrees getting chances; and certainly against them having doors closed to them. But then I think of someone without a degree trying to diagnose an illness I might have, and I worry. But then again, doctors have proved rather poor in that situation in the past...
Thanks for that. I haven't read it yet, but I might suggest that whoever created that webpage go on a 'how to use paragraphs' course.
Perhaps they could get an Apprentice to do it...
TBF I'd have more confidence in GPs if they could actually write legible prescriptions. I would not be surprised if this was a cause of a fair few medical issues every year.
"Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' coronation remark becomes most complained about moment of 2023, Ofcom says
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
I do remember reading a few years ago in a book on the history of medicine that there was a year in the mid 1920s that was quite momentous in terms of public health. It was the first time in the UK that statistically someone who was ill or injured had more chance of surviving if they saw a doctor than if they didn't. Whilst I understand that crossover had to happen sometime I was amazed that it was so recent in history - only a century ago or so. I would love to find it again.
On the face of it that's incredible, but I read it out to my wife and she wasn't surprised at all, simply saying, "antibiotics and Lister".
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
I think it depends very much what was wrong with the patient. Even in the pre-anaesthesia days with no knowledge of sepsis there were quite good survival rates for battlefield injuries and broken bones. Less so for many of the more medical illnesses such as heart, chest and gut complaints etc, where probably much harm was done.
Wasn't that why homeopathy was so respectable for so long? Mucky doctors cutting patients open and poking around did so much harm that soothing words and sugar water led to better outcomes?
Certainly iatrogenic* illnesses have always been an issue in medicine.
*physician induced. See the works of Ivan Illiich, one of the great thinkers of the modern age.
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
For life experience, you mean, or because unis will train them better technically? Not sure the latter has to apply. Eg if you have top A levels and then combine work experience with study in some non-uni setting I can see that this might produce good doctors?
There is something to be said for seeing how folk interact at an early stage - benefits both sides before they go too far. Mrs C did quite a bit of voluntary work with old folk when considering what university degree to go for. She went into another field, but to this day has much more sympathy and understanding with the old than many of us do.
But there are other ways to achieve that specific aim.
Maybe a plus for the idea is it might help more young people from poorer non-professional backgrounds into medicine? Those who are clever enough but are put off uni by the cost of it and the debt you have to take on.
Working class kids were hardly teeming into medicine before the introduction of fees.
Or into any profession for that matter.
It would be interesting to see whether there were more "working class" children accessing the professions back in the days of grammar schools. Love them or loathe them, they gave access to a level of education now reserved for those who can privately educate or are able to buy a house in an area that has a top performing school.
Of course, it also depends on your definition of "working class". Personally I think people who keep using this anachronistic term are as responsible for the maintenance of the class system as much as the worst middle class snob.
What is class? is a PB repeater that I don't wish to trigger but for me - in its serious political sense - it's about money rather than all of that 'using a fish knife' fun to talk about stuff. So you have rich and poor and shades of in between.
I think you have used the phrase often though have you not? Am I mixing you up with someone else, but did you not describe yourself as such?
Yes, I have done - but I said 'poorer non professional background' on this thread.
Excellent. I hope that you have removed the ghastly phrase from your otherwise relatively broad lexicon (well for a chartered accountant anyway)
The Nigel regime is all about policing other people's language.
I am not sure I like the sound of "The Nigel Regime". It sounds like a highly unpleasant fascist dictatorship in a dystopian parallel universe where Farage won a landslide and then decided to invade Ireland.
Suddenly the XTC song "We're only making plans for Nigel" takes on a much darker hue. A think tank in this alt-history Farageverse.
Oddly enough, I was listening to the Nouvelle Vague cover of that just last night :
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
This is right back to the old days of apothecaries and 'surgeons' learning on the job as apprentices. Formal training optional. Uni only if you wanted to be posh and gentlemanly and cater for a posh clientele. 180 years ago?
180 years ago the status of a surgeon (largely required for hacking off limbs with saws - hence the title "sawbones") was very much more humble than a physician, where the main role of the latter was to diagnose and to advise treatment, such as leaches. At some point in the last 100 years or so, when surgery became more complex, the comparative status largely reversed where surgeons were consider the more prestigious end of the medical profession. It is because of this distinction within the profession that in the UK and Ireland surgeons are still referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr"
This is a peculiarity (IIRC) of the UK and Ireland medical profession. Elsewhere in the world surgeons are all called the honorific "Dr". It causes great confusion to people visiting UK hospitals from overseas.
I do remember reading a few years ago in a book on the history of medicine that there was a year in the mid 1920s that was quite momentous in terms of public health. It was the first time in the UK that statistically someone who was ill or injured had more chance of surviving if they saw a doctor than if they didn't. Whilst I understand that crossover had to happen sometime I was amazed that it was so recent in history - only a century ago or so. I would love to find it again.
On the face of it that's incredible, but I read it out to my wife and she wasn't surprised at all, simply saying, "antibiotics and Lister".
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
I think it depends very much what was wrong with the patient. Even in the pre-anaesthesia days with no knowledge of sepsis there were quite good survival rates for battlefield injuries and broken bones. Less so for many of the more medical illnesses such as heart, chest and gut complaints etc, where probably much harm was done.
Wasn't that why homeopathy was so respectable for so long? Mucky doctors cutting patients open and poking around did so much harm that soothing words and sugar water led to better outcomes?
Certainly iatrogenic* illnesses have always been an issue in medicine.
*physician induced. See the works of Ivan Illiich, one of the great thinkers of the modern age.
Illich is much more iconoclastic than that. He sees the whole process of medicine (and schooling, and charity amongst other things) as dangerous and infantalising to society. It isn't just that he thinks much medicine is dangerous and needs improving, he thinks the whole process destructive.
Well worth a read, even if you conclude its a lot of bollocks.
I think Cyclefree's point about the inadequacy of investigations is the strongest single argument around this.
Whether or not juries are subject to bias will always be contentious, but is an extremely difficult area objectively to research - and the question she raises about judges being subject to their own biases is eminently reasonable.
What's beyond question is the patchy - or worse - provision of police investigation, and the enormous delays rape cases are subject to. Doing something about that would, naturally, involve a large commitment of additional resources. But such an effort would unquestionably be fair to both alleged victims and perpetrators.
Ostensibly easy fixes like this one are no substitute for that.
The attack on judicial independence is the most offensive, legally, constitutionally and politically.
Blair wanted to get rid of juries for big fraud trials. I remember him using the word "nobbled" in the House of Commons and for some reason it made me laugh.
I can see the arguments for getting rid of juries for fraud trials, some of them take ages (some have taken two years) and it is unrealistic to expect jurors to give up their time for so long.
Then there's the complexity angle.
Very very strongly disagree with this. In the end fraud cases are about honesty and juries are well able to assess that.
The following faculties have so far confirmed they will be boycotting juryless courts.
Aberdeen, Airdrie, Ayr, Borders, Dumfries, Dundee, Edinburgh, Falkirk, Glasgow, Hamilton, Highland & Moray, Paisley, Perth and West Lothian.
Am I right in assuming that anyone convicted in one of these juryless trials will have the right to appeal up to the Supreme Court in London? I would hope and expect that a lot of convictions will be deemed unsafe.
The problem is that by making the system inherently unsafe they could actually end up with a lot more guilty defendents ultimately goingfree on appeal.
The challenge will be on the basis that the court is not independent and impartial and, therefore, a breach of a defendant's Article 6 rights. At that point the whole Act fails as ultra vires Holyrood's powers - since under devolution Holyrood has no power to pass legislation which would put the U.K. in breach of international obligations, like the ECHR.
You do have to wonder who is giving legal advice to the SNP government these days.
I think the important question is who is *listening* to legal advice in the SNP government these days.
"Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' coronation remark becomes most complained about moment of 2023, Ofcom says
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
Elitist snob that I am, I'm not the only one who would prefer his doctors to have degrees?
NHS scheme will allow school leavers to train as doctors without traditional medical degree
New apprenticeships would put people on wards straight after their A-levels, instead of paying pricey fees for five years at university
School leavers will be able to start working as doctors without going to university, under new NHS plans to fix the growing staff crisis.
The apprenticeship scheme could allow one in 10 doctors to start work without a traditional medical degree, straight after their A-levels. A third of nurses are also expected to be trained under the "radical new approach".
It is the centrepiece of a long-delayed NHS workforce strategy, following warnings that staff shortages in England could reach half a million without action to find new ways to train and recruit health workers.
Ii think this is a brilliant idea. It used to be that the professions acquired skills via non-degree means like apprenticeships or evening classes. If this follows a similar route we get skilled doctors earlier and cheaper
I think it unlikely that they will progress more swiftly if they have to pass the same exams.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
A problem is that the current system is not producing routinely stellar doctors and GPs. Some are awful. The question is whether any changes would alter the ratio of good :: bad doctors. The article's paywalled, so I cannot access it, which means the following might be totally off-piste.
IA obviously NAE, but it seems to me there are many classes of 'doctors': from one working in A&E, to one involved in medical research, to ones who do the same sort of tasks day to day, to the House-style miracle diagnostician. I would not be in the least bit surprised if current medical degrees taught you a broad background, but a vast amount of the learning happened on the job afterwards. As happens with all degrees.
I don't have a degree, and I would like to think I did fairly well in my career despite (because?) of this. I am in favour of people without degrees getting chances; and certainly against them having doors closed to them. But then I think of someone without a degree trying to diagnose an illness I might have, and I worry. But then again, doctors have proved rather poor in that situation in the past...
Thanks for that. I haven't read it yet, but I might suggest that whoever created that webpage go on a 'how to use paragraphs' course.
Perhaps they could get an Apprentice to do it...
TBF I'd have more confidence in GPs if they could actually write legible prescriptions. I would not be surprised if this was a cause of a fair few medical issues every year.
Comments
EDIT: Did I just press "send"???
… Number 10 has refused to rule out a Tory deal with the DUP or other parties if it fails to secure a majority at the next general election.
Rishi Sunak's spokesman said: "I don't think anyone at this stage is going to speculate on the results of the next election…
WTF? Speculating on the Lib Lab coalition of chaos after the next election results is EXACTLY what Sunak did at PMQs 🫣
Thousands of complaints were filed about the remark, which the Bridgerton star made when she appeared on ITV's live coverage of the King's coronation celebrations. Acknowledging the backlash in a radio interview, she said: "I think I upset a few people.""
https://news.sky.com/story/adjoa-andohs-terribly-white-coronation-remark-becomes-most-complained-about-moment-of-2023-ofcom-says-12877889
And it wouldn't prevent it on ethnic grounds, religion is the only official blockage.
Prince George marries a non white woman, has kids, and we have our first not white monarch.
But yes, people of our ethnicity cannot get the job because of the de facto colour bar on the job.
No wonder the Sunak regime is falling apart.
Of course, if you silo into retain, modify, repeal, and "don't know, too hard, do it later", which is probably what happened, it makes a lot more sense.
Which raises questions about what they are being paid for, why is this different from doctors on the standard route and how medical degrees should be funded. I further suspect these questions are getting conflated. If getting experience as salaried employees is a good thing, why isn't everyone doing it? On the hand if the issue is the unaffordability of medical degrees, shouldn't we be focusing on providing bursaries?
I imagine it might be hard to seperate cause and effect, since heavy drug use is often a form of self-medication, speaking to wider mental health and environmental problems that also contribute to poor educational performance. Plus when I was a student all the massive caners were posh boys from private school.
I imagine that getting stoned all the time probably isn't great for one's ability to learn. I've never been a fan of the stuff personally. But I think the poor performance at school of working class kids probably has many sources. Living in a highly class conscious society with the knowledge that others look down on you because of your accent and other trivial class signifiers, and that the cards are massively stacked against you even if you do work hard because of private schools and other barriers to opportunity probably doesn't help.
The 2021 round of local elections (which was basically both the 2020 and 2021 elections run together) had a projected national vote of Conservative 36%, Labour 29% and Liberal Democrat 17% so compared to last Thursday's poll there's been an 8% swing from Conservative to Labour since 2021.
IF the polling numbers this time next year are akin to where we are now, it looks like another round of Conservative losses - the one saving grace is it's a much smaller round of contests than last week.
ETA scooped by Farooq
Once again, Brexit turns out to be easy to say, much harder to do. As long as talking a good Tough On Europe game wins advancement in the Conservative Party, we will continue to have a line of rubes making promises they turn out to be unable to keep.
Unless you are a very long way up the professional tree, having a maiden aunt who leaves you the proceeds of her flat in Islington outweighs almost anything people can save from the proceeds of work.
We really shouldn't have let things get this far out of hand.
The chronic coke heads that I have seen tend more to jittery personalities and have difficulty concentrating, but can be aggressive when high.
I don’t know the total vote lead, does anyone?
The problem with the mock trials pilot is two-fold:-
1. People behave differently in pretend situations to real life. In reality, good counsel - whether prosecuting or defence - get a good sense of how the jury is thinking, what is worrying them etc, both from their demeanour in court and the questions they ask (through the judge) and adjust their presentation accordingly.
2. Here - and I read the paper from the 2 academics which led to this proposal - it seemed to me to work backwards from the conclusion it already had ie men aren't convicted because jurors have myths about rape. That is not a sound basis to rip up the jury system.
Somewhere on my shelves I have a book written by a juror about his experiences which, without revealing secrets of the jury room, is a very useful account of the whole process and how jurors approach their task.
Worth noting that a common path to a Consultant job is CESR as opposed to CCT via a structured training scheme, the first being by demonstrating equivalent experience, so there is precedent for Dr Apprenticeships.
It’s only a Modest Proposal…
You do have to wonder who is giving legal advice to the SNP government these days.
Unless the scheme is only done with insignificant numbers of candidates, there is a major need for skilled supervisors amongst more senior doctors. I really don't see where that capacity comes from for this scheme, nor for that matter with Labour's plan to double numbers.
It does make me wonder how doctors managed to pursue their profession for so many centuries with such a poor success rate. I guess the impulse to want to do something in the face of illness (or other calamity) is so strong that the something people do doesn't have to be at all useful (see also the history of Education reforms from the DfE?)
IA obviously NAE, but it seems to me there are many classes of 'doctors': from one working in A&E, to one involved in medical research, to ones who do the same sort of tasks day to day, to the House-style miracle diagnostician. I would not be in the least bit surprised if current medical degrees taught you a broad background, but a vast amount of the learning happened on the job afterwards. As happens with all degrees.
I don't have a degree, and I would like to think I did fairly well in my career despite (because?) of this. I am in favour of people without degrees getting chances; and certainly against them having doors closed to them. But then I think of someone without a degree trying to diagnose an illness I might have, and I worry. But then again, doctors have proved rather poor in that situation in the past...
*physician induced. See the works of Ivan Illiich, one of the great thinkers of the modern age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Illich
https://www.instituteforapprenticeships.org/apprenticeship-standards/doctor-degree-v1-0
For the sake of balance, the greenness of Starmer should also be pointed out. But he's not trying to run the country at the same time as getting better at politics.
It's on its way out, I think.
Apparently Sky reported only upto 20 mps attended tonight's 1922 committee meeting
Something for everyone there, I trust.
https://youtu.be/yKxM4ToLLR8
However Rishi's problem is that putting all EU legislation through the shredder was a key plank of his "Ready For Rishi" leadership campaign.
He once again looks sneaky, shifty and untrustworthy... Rishi is the pound shop Boris.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsDWd7ayXhY
https://twitter.com/Bobby_Seagull/status/1654788805419835392
Apparently the original version of that sketch pre-dated Harold Shipman's arrest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQu1c4UflE
Well worth a read, even if you conclude its a lot of bollocks.
https://twitter.com/duke_cpu/status/1656350958333329412