I think Sunak probably needs to get the lead down to single figures by September in order to avoid talk of another leadership election.
"Talk of", yes, but only that. He's surely locked into the capsule now.
It depends how much enthusiasm other potential candidates can muster. For instance Penny Mordaunt seems to have become more popular just recently. That might continue.
Although Rishi Sunak is justly proud of becoming Britain’s first prime minister of Indian origin, he has never openly discussed the extraordinary history of his paternal grandfather.
The Times has pieced together the background of Ram Dass Sunak and can reveal that he was two years old when his Punjabi town was attacked by British colonial forces, leaving at least nine dead and 27 injured.
Ram Dass was born in 1917, two years before police, soldiers and pilots carried out a two-day massacre against unarmed Indian civilians in his home town of Gujranwala.
Three aircraft sent from a Royal Air Force base in Lahore were used to drop bombs and machinegun unarmed civilians, including young children, at the Khalsa High School Boarding House, Gujranwala town centre and nearby villages. It is understood that the family, including the prime minister, had no idea about their grandfather’s roots.
Video of the Sunak family home, abandoned after Partition in 1947 and now derelict, is accessible online and the house is only a short distance from the town centre and the school that came under fire.
Surviving records confirm that ten bombs and 1,000 rounds of machinegun fire were directed at the Indian targets. One bomb was dropped deliberately on the school.
During the atrocities on April 14 and 15, 1919, police, army and air force units were ordered to tackle civilian protesters responding to the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in nearby Amritsar.
The Amritsar atrocity, highlighted in the 1982 film Gandhi, is well documented. Less attention was paid to the terrified families of Gujranwala, although their sufferings were noted six months later by the government-sponsored Hunter Committee that was eventually set up to investigate the disturbances in Punjab and other provinces.
The UK government really should pay reparations to the families/descendants of people who were ruled by the British Empire.
HMRC knows my bank details.
Scotland should be first in line given we are the last colony and have had it for the longest time.
How is Scotland the LAST colony? (I mean, it’s obviously not even a colony, but let’s no go there.)
I was under the impression all other colonies had gained their freedom.
It depends what you mean by a colony, but the UN list of non-self governing territories under UK rule is…
Gibraltar Anguilla Bermuda British Virgin Islands Cayman Islands Falkland Islands Montserrat Saint Helena Turks and Caicos Islands Pitcairn
I’m surprised you were able to forget the existence of several of these!
If you’re including Scotland as a “colony”, then one would probably want to add Northern Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and maybe Cumbria. Arguably we should count the Orkneys and Shetlands separately too.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Ted Heath, surely? Didn't he win some big yachting competition?
ETA: Yes, he did, although apparently when he was PM, rather than before!
Idi Amin was Ugandan light heavyweight boxing champion.
Ah yes - a genuine claim to fame. But if we get on to dictators then there will be all sorts of supposed sporting achievements... Kim Jong Un is a record breaking golfer, is he not?
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Ted Heath, surely? Didn't he win some big yachting competition?
ETA: Yes, he did, although apparently when he was PM, rather than before!
Idi Amin was Ugandan light heavyweight boxing champion.
Ah yes - a genuine claim to fame. But if we get on to dictators then there will be all sorts of supposed sporting achievements... Kim Jong Un is a record breaking golfer, is he not?
Yes, but he's descended from a deity, so doesn't count.
“10 GB of free internet per month, that’s rich,” says a 19-year-old first-time Turkish voter, mocking Erdogan’s promise to university students. “This government has already blocked half of the sites I’d want to use.” https://twitter.com/AlMonitor/status/1655610565266485257
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Ted Heath, surely? Didn't he win some big yachting competition?
ETA: Yes, he did, although apparently when he was PM, rather than before!
Idi Amin was Ugandan light heavyweight boxing champion.
Ah yes - a genuine claim to fame. But if we get on to dictators then there will be all sorts of supposed sporting achievements... Kim Jong Un is a record breaking golfer, is he not?
Yes, but he's descended from a deity, so doesn't count.
Although Rishi Sunak is justly proud of becoming Britain’s first prime minister of Indian origin, he has never openly discussed the extraordinary history of his paternal grandfather.
The Times has pieced together the background of Ram Dass Sunak and can reveal that he was two years old when his Punjabi town was attacked by British colonial forces, leaving at least nine dead and 27 injured.
Ram Dass was born in 1917, two years before police, soldiers and pilots carried out a two-day massacre against unarmed Indian civilians in his home town of Gujranwala.
Three aircraft sent from a Royal Air Force base in Lahore were used to drop bombs and machinegun unarmed civilians, including young children, at the Khalsa High School Boarding House, Gujranwala town centre and nearby villages. It is understood that the family, including the prime minister, had no idea about their grandfather’s roots.
Video of the Sunak family home, abandoned after Partition in 1947 and now derelict, is accessible online and the house is only a short distance from the town centre and the school that came under fire.
Surviving records confirm that ten bombs and 1,000 rounds of machinegun fire were directed at the Indian targets. One bomb was dropped deliberately on the school.
During the atrocities on April 14 and 15, 1919, police, army and air force units were ordered to tackle civilian protesters responding to the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in nearby Amritsar.
The Amritsar atrocity, highlighted in the 1982 film Gandhi, is well documented. Less attention was paid to the terrified families of Gujranwala, although their sufferings were noted six months later by the government-sponsored Hunter Committee that was eventually set up to investigate the disturbances in Punjab and other provinces.
The UK government really should pay reparations to the families/descendants of people who were ruled by the British Empire.
HMRC knows my bank details.
Scotland should be first in line given we are the last colony and have had it for the longest time.
How is Scotland the LAST colony? (I mean, it’s obviously not even a colony, but let’s no go there.)
I was under the impression all other colonies had gained their freedom.
It depends what you mean by a colony, but the UN list of non-self governing territories under UK rule is…
Gibraltar Anguilla Bermuda British Virgin Islands Cayman Islands Falkland Islands Montserrat Saint Helena Turks and Caicos Islands Pitcairn
I’m surprised you were able to forget the existence of several of these!
If you’re including Scotland as a “colony”, then one would probably want to add Northern Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and maybe Cumbria. Arguably we should count the Orkneys and Shetlands separately too.
Anguilla welcomed a British invasion in 1969 because they didn't want to have anything to do with St Kitts and Nevis whom they'd be lumped together with.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Ted Heath, surely? Didn't he win some big yachting competition?
ETA: Yes, he did, although apparently when he was PM, rather than before!
Yes he did. The Morning Cloud. I remember that. Talk about impressive multitasking. He was also a highly accomplished musician (piano and organ) and he kept that up too as PM.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Tarō Asō - former Japanese PM. Member of the Japanese shooting team at the 1976 Olympics. Edi Rama - former Albanian PM. Member of the Albanian National Basketball team.
Although Rishi Sunak is justly proud of becoming Britain’s first prime minister of Indian origin, he has never openly discussed the extraordinary history of his paternal grandfather.
The Times has pieced together the background of Ram Dass Sunak and can reveal that he was two years old when his Punjabi town was attacked by British colonial forces, leaving at least nine dead and 27 injured.
Ram Dass was born in 1917, two years before police, soldiers and pilots carried out a two-day massacre against unarmed Indian civilians in his home town of Gujranwala.
Three aircraft sent from a Royal Air Force base in Lahore were used to drop bombs and machinegun unarmed civilians, including young children, at the Khalsa High School Boarding House, Gujranwala town centre and nearby villages. It is understood that the family, including the prime minister, had no idea about their grandfather’s roots.
Video of the Sunak family home, abandoned after Partition in 1947 and now derelict, is accessible online and the house is only a short distance from the town centre and the school that came under fire.
Surviving records confirm that ten bombs and 1,000 rounds of machinegun fire were directed at the Indian targets. One bomb was dropped deliberately on the school.
During the atrocities on April 14 and 15, 1919, police, army and air force units were ordered to tackle civilian protesters responding to the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in nearby Amritsar.
The Amritsar atrocity, highlighted in the 1982 film Gandhi, is well documented. Less attention was paid to the terrified families of Gujranwala, although their sufferings were noted six months later by the government-sponsored Hunter Committee that was eventually set up to investigate the disturbances in Punjab and other provinces.
The UK government really should pay reparations to the families/descendants of people who were ruled by the British Empire.
HMRC knows my bank details.
Scotland should be first in line given we are the last colony and have had it for the longest time.
How is Scotland the LAST colony? (I mean, it’s obviously not even a colony, but let’s no go there.)
I was under the impression all other colonies had gained their freedom.
It depends what you mean by a colony, but the UN list of non-self governing territories under UK rule is…
Gibraltar Anguilla Bermuda British Virgin Islands Cayman Islands Falkland Islands Montserrat Saint Helena Turks and Caicos Islands Pitcairn
I’m surprised you were able to forget the existence of several of these!
If you’re including Scotland as a “colony”, then one would probably want to add Northern Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and maybe Cumbria. Arguably we should count the Orkneys and Shetlands separately too.
Arguably, England is a colony of the Channel Islands, being all that's left to the Crown of Normandy
Mr. F, the Harrying of the North killed about 75% of the people in Yorkshire, if memory serves (from Marc Morris' very good book on the period).
It's bizarre that some feel entitled for wrongs done to people who are not them, from people who did not do the wrongdoing. And pathetic that some feel inclined to indulge this irrational greed.
So I get double compensation for being a Yorkshireman of Pakistani heritage.
Hurrah.
I’ve often wondered just how successful I would have been in life if I didn’t live in such an oppressive country for minorities.
It might have given me the self confidence in myself to succeed.
Which 11th century Yorkshiremen are you a descendant of?
Look if Jesus can make it to the UK then it is entirely possible one of my antecedents made it to the UK in the 11th century.
And did these feet in ancient times etc.
On that “logic” we’re all entitled to reparations from everybody else
Hand it over, Blanche, or you lose your username.
While this is all very jolly, and I generally agree with the thrust that we're all descended from both victors and victims, the pedant in me can't help quibble with Eagles: surely his point should be that it is possible that an eleventh century Yorkshireman made his way to Pakistan? In any case, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility. There wasn't much intercontinental travel in the 11th century, but there was some. I believe that there is an area of Pakistan where blue eyes are quite common after a bit of medieval migration.
I am genuinely interested to know how foreign we all are (and indeed how British the rest of the world is). It's almost certainly the case that of the set of tenth century inhabitants of the British Isles who has any descendants in Britain today, that everyone in the British Isles today of broadly White British origin is descended from all of them. It might or might not be true that this logic can be applied more widely (i.e. am I also descended from everyone in Europe from the tenth century who had descendants?)
I recently found out I am descended from the artist Velasquez. Foreign genes have likely crept in somewhere to even the most British of us.
Not me. Coal mining and Yorkshire as far back as the eye can see.
Do you have any ancestors that you know of not from Yorkshire? If not, I find that surprising. I've heard that it tends to be the case that genes stay in one place. Yet I know very few people who have four grandparents from the same place. And those I do know in that category, that place is London: it was likely that their antecedents came there from outside. Now, 'people I know' isn't necessarily a representative sample, but still: I'm not atypical of those who I know: my grandparents were from Edinburgh, Manchester, Birmingham and London; and each of those four had grandparents from other parts of the country.
And even if you are all Yorkshire coalfield; well, coalfield jobs attracted incomers, and the era when the pits were opened was, what, six generations back - that's 64 great-great-great grandparents you had then. Surely at least one - very probably more - of them was an incomer. Coal mines attracted all manner of individuals for whom the countryside offered nothing but cold and starvation. Admittedly the amount of non-British introduced to all this was tiny, but such is the logic of exponential growth of the number of ancestors as you go further and further back in time that it seems very likely that the odd foreigner crept in amongst your gene pool.
My daughter and her mother have both had one of those online DNA tests, as my ex-wife is of Coloured South African origin and her grandmother would never admit to any non-European ancestry even though she obviously had loads (mostly various sorts of Asian, it turns out).
But the surprise was that my daughter has quite a large chunk of Iberian that her mother doesn't have, which must come from me even though all the ancestors I know about for several generations back come from the Channel Islands, Yorkshire, the West Country, and London. So you never know, you may be surprised by what you find.
At least you hope that the "Large chunk of Iberian" comes from your genes and not from a large chunky Iberian!
Although Rishi Sunak is justly proud of becoming Britain’s first prime minister of Indian origin, he has never openly discussed the extraordinary history of his paternal grandfather.
The Times has pieced together the background of Ram Dass Sunak and can reveal that he was two years old when his Punjabi town was attacked by British colonial forces, leaving at least nine dead and 27 injured.
Ram Dass was born in 1917, two years before police, soldiers and pilots carried out a two-day massacre against unarmed Indian civilians in his home town of Gujranwala.
Three aircraft sent from a Royal Air Force base in Lahore were used to drop bombs and machinegun unarmed civilians, including young children, at the Khalsa High School Boarding House, Gujranwala town centre and nearby villages. It is understood that the family, including the prime minister, had no idea about their grandfather’s roots.
Video of the Sunak family home, abandoned after Partition in 1947 and now derelict, is accessible online and the house is only a short distance from the town centre and the school that came under fire.
Surviving records confirm that ten bombs and 1,000 rounds of machinegun fire were directed at the Indian targets. One bomb was dropped deliberately on the school.
During the atrocities on April 14 and 15, 1919, police, army and air force units were ordered to tackle civilian protesters responding to the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in nearby Amritsar.
The Amritsar atrocity, highlighted in the 1982 film Gandhi, is well documented. Less attention was paid to the terrified families of Gujranwala, although their sufferings were noted six months later by the government-sponsored Hunter Committee that was eventually set up to investigate the disturbances in Punjab and other provinces.
The UK government really should pay reparations to the families/descendants of people who were ruled by the British Empire.
HMRC knows my bank details.
Scotland should be first in line given we are the last colony and have had it for the longest time.
How is Scotland the LAST colony? (I mean, it’s obviously not even a colony, but let’s no go there.)
I was under the impression all other colonies had gained their freedom.
It depends what you mean by a colony, but the UN list of non-self governing territories under UK rule is…
Gibraltar Anguilla Bermuda British Virgin Islands Cayman Islands Falkland Islands Montserrat Saint Helena Turks and Caicos Islands Pitcairn
I’m surprised you were able to forget the existence of several of these!
If you’re including Scotland as a “colony”, then one would probably want to add Northern Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and maybe Cumbria. Arguably we should count the Orkneys and Shetlands separately too.
Would disagree with the Channel Islands, they actively chose to break away from their traditional overlords in Normandy to stay under the English Crown when King John lost Normandy as he promised they could retain their ancient rights etc so were not invaded by England and annexed.
Funnily enough it’s Liberation day today so were a colony of Germany for a short time.
Mr. F, the Harrying of the North killed about 75% of the people in Yorkshire, if memory serves (from Marc Morris' very good book on the period).
It's bizarre that some feel entitled for wrongs done to people who are not them, from people who did not do the wrongdoing. And pathetic that some feel inclined to indulge this irrational greed.
So I get double compensation for being a Yorkshireman of Pakistani heritage.
Hurrah.
I’ve often wondered just how successful I would have been in life if I didn’t live in such an oppressive country for minorities.
It might have given me the self confidence in myself to succeed.
Which 11th century Yorkshiremen are you a descendant of?
Look if Jesus can make it to the UK then it is entirely possible one of my antecedents made it to the UK in the 11th century.
And did these feet in ancient times etc.
On that “logic” we’re all entitled to reparations from everybody else
Hand it over, Blanche, or you lose your username.
While this is all very jolly, and I generally agree with the thrust that we're all descended from both victors and victims, the pedant in me can't help quibble with Eagles: surely his point should be that it is possible that an eleventh century Yorkshireman made his way to Pakistan? In any case, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility. There wasn't much intercontinental travel in the 11th century, but there was some. I believe that there is an area of Pakistan where blue eyes are quite common after a bit of medieval migration.
I am genuinely interested to know how foreign we all are (and indeed how British the rest of the world is). It's almost certainly the case that of the set of tenth century inhabitants of the British Isles who has any descendants in Britain today, that everyone in the British Isles today of broadly White British origin is descended from all of them. It might or might not be true that this logic can be applied more widely (i.e. am I also descended from everyone in Europe from the tenth century who had descendants?)
I recently found out I am descended from the artist Velasquez. Foreign genes have likely crept in somewhere to even the most British of us.
Not me. Coal mining and Yorkshire as far back as the eye can see.
Do you have any ancestors that you know of not from Yorkshire? If not, I find that surprising. I've heard that it tends to be the case that genes stay in one place. Yet I know very few people who have four grandparents from the same place. And those I do know in that category, that place is London: it was likely that their antecedents came there from outside. Now, 'people I know' isn't necessarily a representative sample, but still: I'm not atypical of those who I know: my grandparents were from Edinburgh, Manchester, Birmingham and London; and each of those four had grandparents from other parts of the country.
And even if you are all Yorkshire coalfield; well, coalfield jobs attracted incomers, and the era when the pits were opened was, what, six generations back - that's 64 great-great-great grandparents you had then. Surely at least one - very probably more - of them was an incomer. Coal mines attracted all manner of individuals for whom the countryside offered nothing but cold and starvation. Admittedly the amount of non-British introduced to all this was tiny, but such is the logic of exponential growth of the number of ancestors as you go further and further back in time that it seems very likely that the odd foreigner crept in amongst your gene pool.
My daughter and her mother have both had one of those online DNA tests, as my ex-wife is of Coloured South African origin and her grandmother would never admit to any non-European ancestry even though she obviously had loads (mostly various sorts of Asian, it turns out).
But the surprise was that my daughter has quite a large chunk of Iberian that her mother doesn't have, which must come from me even though all the ancestors I know about for several generations back come from the Channel Islands, Yorkshire, the West Country, and London. So you never know, you may be surprised by what you find.
I'm tempted to get these tests for my wife and me. As far as I know I have extremely boring British Isles ancestry with West Country/Irish on my mum's side and South Wales and the East Coast (East Anglia up to the East Coast of Scotland) on my dad's side. It would be interesting to know if there was more in there. My wife's family come from Sri Lanka, which being an island on historical trade routes will probably give her lots of interesting stuff. We have speculated if there are some European genes in there as some of her family - and most notably our children - are quite fair.
Which DNA test did you do? I have done quite a few and would say that Ancestry is currently the most accurate for ethnicity. Also they now have something called Sideview that split's your ethnicity and matches by parent.
I haven't done it, I'd be interested in people's experiences as well as any privacy concerns.
One other point - one can end up with somer unexpected relatives.
I'm no republican but the arrest of Graham Smith from Republic after he'd carefully prepped/coordinated his anti-monarchy protest (As is his right) with the met police was really uncalled for. There's now an obvious incentive just to not bother telling the police and resort to the disruptive tactics as per Just Stop Oil rather than trying to do it the correct way as Smith clearly sought to do.
Good to know it's not just the EU you're in favour of craven obeisance toward.
I'll put your ad hominem stuff aside. What does Liz Truss intervening in Chinese/Taiwan tensions usefully acheive?
A more pertinent question might be what has the past 10-20 years of minding our p's and q's achieved - as far as I can see, the answer is very little. Where Britain is concerned, China has made every effort to enrich itself at our expense, by fair means or less than fair means. This is a deliberate process, and whilst I don't blame the Chinese for doing it, I do blame successive UK Governments for failing to counter it. We will not reverse this process solely by making speeches in Taiwan, but it is important that we put our national interest first in our dealings with China, and along with tightening security around intellectual property, ensuring that there is no unwarranted activity by Chinese security services on British soil, and adopting 'like for like' tariffs on Chinese goods and services, we should not be intimidated away from supporting allies like the Taiwanese. Firm but fair is a good approach in all our foreign dealings - it's much less likely that other countries will be upset with us if we adopt this approach from the beginning. It's when we start by sucking up and then suddenly get tough that people start getting irate.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Gary Lineker surely. In what sense is he not a politician?
There are thousands of Sportmen/women who have been outspoken on political issues. The Black Power salute in them Munich olympics being one of many examples.
This is somewhat different from a sportsperson who decides to seek election and/or move up the ladder of power.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Gary Lineker surely. In what sense is he not a politician?
There are thousands of Sportmen/women who have been outspoken on political issues. The Black Power salute in them Munich olympics being one of many examples.
This is somewhat different from a sportsperson who decides to seek election and/or move up the ladder of power.
Jeffrey Archer!
But Roger Bannister doesn't qualify, I suppose. Politically, I mean.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Ted Heath, surely? Didn't he win some big yachting competition?
ETA: Yes, he did, although apparently when he was PM, rather than before!
Idi Amin was Ugandan light heavyweight boxing champion.
Ah yes - a genuine claim to fame. But if we get on to dictators then there will be all sorts of supposed sporting achievements... Kim Jong Un is a record breaking golfer, is he not?
Actually, Taiwan ought to be supported, like Ukraine.
I'm all in favour of supporting Taiwan. I'm just not sure how Liz Truss upping the temperature as part of her latest vanity project in any way achieves that.
Actually, Taiwan ought to be supported, like Ukraine.
I'm all in favour of supporting Taiwan. I'm just not sure how Liz Truss upping the temperature as part of her latest vanity project in any way achieves that.
Actually, Taiwan ought to be supported, like Ukraine.
I'm all in favour of supporting Taiwan. I'm just not sure how Liz Truss upping the temperature as part of her latest vanity project in any way achieves that.
In other words, your objection has nothing at all to do with whether making a speech in Taiwan is the right thing to do, and everything to do with your personal feelings about who is making it.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Manny Pacquiao, (Lords) Sebastian Coe & Ian Botham,
I remember in 1979 Seb Coe broke 3 world records at 3 different distances in 41 days. He was surely the greatest runner we have ever produced. He didn't do much as an MP but he has done incredibly well in the world of athletic politics.
Both sides of my family have strong Irish connections. My Dad's paternal line was Irish Protestant from Carlow and my Mum's paternal line was Irish Catholic from Cork. In both cases they moved to London in the mid - late 19th century.
A huge number of people in Britain are as "Irish" as Joe Biden, I'm one of them, who himself is also by the same reckoning "English".
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Ted Heath, surely? Didn't he win some big yachting competition?
ETA: Yes, he did, although apparently when he was PM, rather than before!
Idi Amin was Ugandan light heavyweight boxing champion.
Ah yes - a genuine claim to fame. But if we get on to dictators then there will be all sorts of supposed sporting achievements... Kim Jong Un is a record breaking golfer, is he not?
Right family, wrong generation.
Ah... d'oh!
What I mean is that I am privy to certain information regarding the present supreme leader's golfing prowess. Even fewer strokes than his father, I hear - two holes in one shot!
The total capitalization of London-listed equities fell from a high of $4.3 trillion in 2007 to about $3 trillion in 2023, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Over the same period, the value of US stocks more than doubled to $43 trillion.
Both sides of my family have strong Irish connections. My Dad's paternal line was Irish Protestant from Carlow and my Mum's paternal line was Irish Catholic from Cork. In both cases they moved to London in the mid - late 19th century.
A huge number of people in Britain are as "Irish" as Joe Biden, I'm one of them, who himself is also by the same reckoning "English".
Aye. I certainly don't consider myself Irish for all that I have a great liking for the place and the people. I find ancestry interesting but find it odd to make any sort of claim beyond that.
Mr. F, the Harrying of the North killed about 75% of the people in Yorkshire, if memory serves (from Marc Morris' very good book on the period).
It's bizarre that some feel entitled for wrongs done to people who are not them, from people who did not do the wrongdoing. And pathetic that some feel inclined to indulge this irrational greed.
So I get double compensation for being a Yorkshireman of Pakistani heritage.
Hurrah.
I’ve often wondered just how successful I would have been in life if I didn’t live in such an oppressive country for minorities.
It might have given me the self confidence in myself to succeed.
Which 11th century Yorkshiremen are you a descendant of?
Look if Jesus can make it to the UK then it is entirely possible one of my antecedents made it to the UK in the 11th century.
And did these feet in ancient times etc.
On that “logic” we’re all entitled to reparations from everybody else
Hand it over, Blanche, or you lose your username.
While this is all very jolly, and I generally agree with the thrust that we're all descended from both victors and victims, the pedant in me can't help quibble with Eagles: surely his point should be that it is possible that an eleventh century Yorkshireman made his way to Pakistan? In any case, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility. There wasn't much intercontinental travel in the 11th century, but there was some. I believe that there is an area of Pakistan where blue eyes are quite common after a bit of medieval migration.
I am genuinely interested to know how foreign we all are (and indeed how British the rest of the world is). It's almost certainly the case that of the set of tenth century inhabitants of the British Isles who has any descendants in Britain today, that everyone in the British Isles today of broadly White British origin is descended from all of them. It might or might not be true that this logic can be applied more widely (i.e. am I also descended from everyone in Europe from the tenth century who had descendants?)
I recently found out I am descended from the artist Velasquez. Foreign genes have likely crept in somewhere to even the most British of us.
Not me. Coal mining and Yorkshire as far back as the eye can see.
Do you have any ancestors that you know of not from Yorkshire? If not, I find that surprising. I've heard that it tends to be the case that genes stay in one place. Yet I know very few people who have four grandparents from the same place. And those I do know in that category, that place is London: it was likely that their antecedents came there from outside. Now, 'people I know' isn't necessarily a representative sample, but still: I'm not atypical of those who I know: my grandparents were from Edinburgh, Manchester, Birmingham and London; and each of those four had grandparents from other parts of the country.
And even if you are all Yorkshire coalfield; well, coalfield jobs attracted incomers, and the era when the pits were opened was, what, six generations back - that's 64 great-great-great grandparents you had then. Surely at least one - very probably more - of them was an incomer. Coal mines attracted all manner of individuals for whom the countryside offered nothing but cold and starvation. Admittedly the amount of non-British introduced to all this was tiny, but such is the logic of exponential growth of the number of ancestors as you go further and further back in time that it seems very likely that the odd foreigner crept in amongst your gene pool.
My daughter and her mother have both had one of those online DNA tests, as my ex-wife is of Coloured South African origin and her grandmother would never admit to any non-European ancestry even though she obviously had loads (mostly various sorts of Asian, it turns out).
But the surprise was that my daughter has quite a large chunk of Iberian that her mother doesn't have, which must come from me even though all the ancestors I know about for several generations back come from the Channel Islands, Yorkshire, the West Country, and London. So you never know, you may be surprised by what you find.
I'm tempted to get these tests for my wife and me. As far as I know I have extremely boring British Isles ancestry with West Country/Irish on my mum's side and South Wales and the East Coast (East Anglia up to the East Coast of Scotland) on my dad's side. It would be interesting to know if there was more in there. My wife's family come from Sri Lanka, which being an island on historical trade routes will probably give her lots of interesting stuff. We have speculated if there are some European genes in there as some of her family - and most notably our children - are quite fair.
Which DNA test did you do? I have done quite a few and would say that Ancestry is currently the most accurate for ethnicity. Also they now have something called Sideview that split's your ethnicity and matches by parent.
I haven't done it, I'd be interested in people's experiences as well as any privacy concerns.
Presumably you know that the police use such sites to trace criminals either directly or through genetic relatives. But then one effectively signs away rights to privacy when sending samples.
Re ethnicity, I don't have any expertise, but one obvious issue is what DNA they use - mitochondrial or nuclear, and in the latter case what chomosomes. Y chromosome DNA is through the male, mitDNA through the female line.
Edit: to be more accurate, comments about right to privacy depend on what one does, e.g. if one opens one's data to comparison with others on genealogical websites. But it is something I would be loath to do anyway.
It feels like we may have seen the best of Jofra Archer back in 2019.
Jofra Archer is a doubt for the Ashes after he was ruled out for the remainder of this season’s Indian Premier League through injury.
Archer has returned home having been replaced at Mumbai Indians by his England team-mate Chris Jordan. He spent 17 months on the sidelines because of elbow and back injuries before returning to international cricket in January this year.
The 28-year-old fast bowler, however, played only five of Mumbai’s ten matches this season. He reportedly underwent a minor operation on his troublesome right elbow last month though Archer reacted angrily to the reports at the time.
Actually, Taiwan ought to be supported, like Ukraine.
I'm all in favour of supporting Taiwan. I'm just not sure how Liz Truss upping the temperature as part of her latest vanity project in any way achieves that.
In other words, your objection has nothing at all to do with whether making a speech in Taiwan is the right thing to do, and everything to do with your personal feelings about who is making it.
Absolutely. Lizz Truss is a proven incompetent, failure and narcissist. Nevertheless, she is still a former British prime minister and that alone carries significant weight. So we have a dangerous mix here. When she starts going around stirring the hornets' nest that has graver implications than if a nonentity such as you or I did likewise. The woman doesn't have anything useful to say about anything, let alone about the fraught subject of China's claim to Taiwan. Let her go away and work in a charity shop or something, in infinite silence. We don't need her. The world doesn't need her.
Actually, Taiwan ought to be supported, like Ukraine.
I'm all in favour of supporting Taiwan. I'm just not sure how Liz Truss upping the temperature as part of her latest vanity project in any way achieves that.
The Ukrainian / Republic of China border needs sorting out.
I'm no republican but the arrest of Graham Smith from Republic after he'd carefully prepped/coordinated his anti-monarchy protest (As is his right) with the met police was really uncalled for. There's now an obvious incentive just to not bother telling the police and resort to the disruptive tactics as per Just Stop Oil rather than trying to do it the correct way as Smith clearly sought to do.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Seb Coe?
Colin Moynihan, Miniature For Sport
Ming Campbell. He hardly ever mentions it but he was an Olympian sprinter.
The fastest white man on the planet. Also the result of his training has been to leave him in old age unable to walk far. Meant he had a massive taxi bill when in Parliament.
I'm no republican but the arrest of Graham Smith from Republic after he'd carefully prepped/coordinated his anti-monarchy protest (As is his right) with the met police was really uncalled for. There's now an obvious incentive just to not bother telling the police and resort to the disruptive tactics as per Just Stop Oil rather than trying to do it the correct way as Smith clearly sought to do.
A shocker for the Met tbh.
So snafu?
The jokes write themselves….
“A massive corruption ring uncovered in the Met. Investigators were alerted by suspicious behaviour by the unit - no racism, sexual assaults and a habit of solving crimes.”
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Ted Heath, surely? Didn't he win some big yachting competition?
ETA: Yes, he did, although apparently when he was PM, rather than before!
Pope John Paul II. Goalkeeper.
Lord Astor: won a gold and a bronze at the 1908 Olympics in rackets (whatever that is) and later Conservative MP for Dover. His son was also a Conservative MP, rising to be a PPS.
Actually, Taiwan ought to be supported, like Ukraine.
But instead they're getting a visit from Liz Truss.
Declaring war on China could be the Black Swan event the Conservatives need. Snap election, big win and total capitulation on the Friday after the election.
Jeez and here am I feeling sorry for Anthony Joshua - who would want to be him climbing through the ropes of his next fight, whoever it is. What will be going through his head goodness only knows.
Imagine however if Lab were to lose the next GE. That would be so damaging to their collective psyche I'm not sure they could recover. Perhaps @bjo will form his much beloved core Lab to take their chances and banish all the Lab right wingers to the wilderness.
It ought to be Wilder but you can make a case for Zhang.
Zhang is not a bad fight (although I thought that was now Fury's next fight) but it's not the fight we want.
Actually, Taiwan ought to be supported, like Ukraine.
I'm all in favour of supporting Taiwan. I'm just not sure how Liz Truss upping the temperature as part of her latest vanity project in any way achieves that.
In other words, your objection has nothing at all to do with whether making a speech in Taiwan is the right thing to do, and everything to do with your personal feelings about who is making it.
Absolutely. Lizz Truss is a proven incompetent, failure and narcissist. Nevertheless, she is still a former British prime minister and that alone carries significant weight. So we have a dangerous mix here. When she starts going around stirring the hornets' nest that has graver implications than if a nonentity such as you or I did likewise. The woman doesn't have anything useful to say about anything, let alone about the fraught subject of China's claim to Taiwan. Let her go away and work in a charity shop or something, in infinite silence. We don't need her. The world doesn't need her.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Manny Pacquiao, (Lords) Sebastian Coe & Ian Botham,
I remember in 1979 Seb Coe broke 3 world records at 3 different distances in 41 days. He was surely the greatest runner we have ever produced. He didn't do much as an MP but he has done incredibly well in the world of athletic politics.
Being able to run fast must have come in handy when canvassing for the Tories. Most voters will have run out of puff before 1500 metres.
Wikipedia’s list of sportspeople politicians includes Gyles Brandreth on account of his Scrabble playing. He was President of the Association of British Scrabble Players. He was also a European champion at Monopoly.
Actually, Taiwan ought to be supported, like Ukraine.
Who is paying for this trip ? Taiwan ? The UK taxpayer ? Liz Truss personally (Hah, right...) ?
Is it part of government strategy ?
If we think it's a good idea, why isn't Cleverly or Goldsmith doing this ?
Good point. If it transpires that the government is behind this - using Liz as some kind of outrider - then I'll take it all back: Liz is a national asset and dutiful servant of her country. But I think we all know that probably isn't the case.
Have we mentioned Sir Menzies Campbell in the former sports star turned politician list?
How about John Major? He liked playing sport...
And David Mellor ,,, didn't he play for Chelsea?
Didn’t Gerry Adams used to shoot professionally?
I'd rather be washed up on a desert island with Michelle O'Neill. How do I tell Blanche that, due to the Coronation process, I have no inner monologue?
The total capitalization of London-listed equities fell from a high of $4.3 trillion in 2007 to about $3 trillion in 2023, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Over the same period, the value of US stocks more than doubled to $43 trillion.
If there is any one single factor in the fall off in UK total market capitalisation it is that the regulatory rules and requirements around listing in London (not only on the Stock Market but what you have to do as a company, the various legal requirements you have to make etc) make it totally unattractive. We have a poisonous combination of regulators who gold-plate the regulations to the nth degree and what is effectively a New Labour (still) mindset of seeing corporates not as entities to generate profits but to bring about 'desired' outcomes such as in ESG, diversity etc.
If there was one EU rule that heavily influenced things also it was MiFid2 - and in an entirely negative way when the UK (again) gold-plated the rules making research coverage of UK smaller cap companies unattractive.
Jeez and here am I feeling sorry for Anthony Joshua - who would want to be him climbing through the ropes of his next fight, whoever it is. What will be going through his head goodness only knows.
Imagine however if Lab were to lose the next GE. That would be so damaging to their collective psyche I'm not sure they could recover. Perhaps @bjo will form his much beloved core Lab to take their chances and banish all the Lab right wingers to the wilderness.
It ought to be Wilder but you can make a case for Zhang.
Zhang is not a bad fight (although I thought that was now Fury's next fight) but it's not the fight we want.
I know for obvious reasons fighters can't box each other as much as say the big tennis stars play each other, but the ducking is seriously bad in the heavyweight division. I think Fury is the worst of the lot for it tbh -
Spence - Crawford & Alvarez - Bivol II look the best fights this year hopefully they'll happen.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Manny Pacquiao, (Lords) Sebastian Coe & Ian Botham,
I remember in 1979 Seb Coe broke 3 world records at 3 different distances in 41 days. He was surely the greatest runner we have ever produced. He didn't do much as an MP but he has done incredibly well in the world of athletic politics.
Between Seb Coe and Mo Farah for greatest British runner, both won everything more than once, although it’s notoriously difficult to compare different eras.
Although Rishi Sunak is justly proud of becoming Britain’s first prime minister of Indian origin, he has never openly discussed the extraordinary history of his paternal grandfather.
The Times has pieced together the background of Ram Dass Sunak and can reveal that he was two years old when his Punjabi town was attacked by British colonial forces, leaving at least nine dead and 27 injured.
Ram Dass was born in 1917, two years before police, soldiers and pilots carried out a two-day massacre against unarmed Indian civilians in his home town of Gujranwala.
Three aircraft sent from a Royal Air Force base in Lahore were used to drop bombs and machinegun unarmed civilians, including young children, at the Khalsa High School Boarding House, Gujranwala town centre and nearby villages. It is understood that the family, including the prime minister, had no idea about their grandfather’s roots.
Video of the Sunak family home, abandoned after Partition in 1947 and now derelict, is accessible online and the house is only a short distance from the town centre and the school that came under fire.
Surviving records confirm that ten bombs and 1,000 rounds of machinegun fire were directed at the Indian targets. One bomb was dropped deliberately on the school.
During the atrocities on April 14 and 15, 1919, police, army and air force units were ordered to tackle civilian protesters responding to the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in nearby Amritsar.
The Amritsar atrocity, highlighted in the 1982 film Gandhi, is well documented. Less attention was paid to the terrified families of Gujranwala, although their sufferings were noted six months later by the government-sponsored Hunter Committee that was eventually set up to investigate the disturbances in Punjab and other provinces.
The UK government really should pay reparations to the families/descendants of people who were ruled by the British Empire.
HMRC knows my bank details.
The Irish are ahead of you (and the Scots) in the queue.
The Scots participated in the Empire with boundless enthusiasm, and prospered hugely off the back of it.
Disproportionately so. It is rank hypocrisy for them to claim (as a few historical illiterates have claimed on here) that they are a "colony". Looking at the number of Scots, or those of Scottish decent that have held the highest offices in Westminster it is possible to suggest that it is England that is held captive
Ireland, on the other hand, has a very different story. It is an insult to the Irish for Scots to claim any similarity, particularly as Scottish settlers and their regiments did so much to further Irish misery.
Plenty of Irish played a big role in building the British Empire. 27% of Wellington's army was Irish.
Wellington was, of course born in Ireland, though apparently did not consider himself Irish (even though he was technically much more Irish than most so-called "Irish-Americans") saying that being born in a barn does not make someone a horse. A great general, but clearly a bit of a twat.
He was an Ascendant. That makes him “a bit of a twat” almost by definition.
Former international sportsmen or women as major politicians. Imran Khan, George Weah, Klitchko, any others? (Trump playing golf doesn’t count).
Manny Pacquiao, (Lords) Sebastian Coe & Ian Botham,
I remember in 1979 Seb Coe broke 3 world records at 3 different distances in 41 days. He was surely the greatest runner we have ever produced. He didn't do much as an MP but he has done incredibly well in the world of athletic politics.
Between Seb Coe and Mo Farah for greatest British runner, both won everything more than once, although it’s notoriously difficult to compare different eras.
Lord Lucan is the country's finest ever runner and world champion at hide and seek.
Jeez and here am I feeling sorry for Anthony Joshua - who would want to be him climbing through the ropes of his next fight, whoever it is. What will be going through his head goodness only knows.
Imagine however if Lab were to lose the next GE. That would be so damaging to their collective psyche I'm not sure they could recover. Perhaps @bjo will form his much beloved core Lab to take their chances and banish all the Lab right wingers to the wilderness.
It ought to be Wilder but you can make a case for Zhang.
Zhang is not a bad fight (although I thought that was now Fury's next fight) but it's not the fight we want.
I know for obvious reasons fighters can't box each other as much as say the big tennis stars play each other, but the ducking is seriously bad in the heavyweight division. I think Fury is the worst of the lot for it tbh -
Spence - Crawford & Alvarez - Bivol II look the best fights this year hopefully they'll happen.
Well we just had Tank vs Garcia tbf.
Spence-Crawford obvs absolutely, but I don't see what changes with Canelo-Bivol II. Bivol/Beterbiev is the one we want.
But then as you say there are plenty we want. I'd watch Zhang fight any of the current HWs fwiw.
Jeez and here am I feeling sorry for Anthony Joshua - who would want to be him climbing through the ropes of his next fight, whoever it is. What will be going through his head goodness only knows.
Imagine however if Lab were to lose the next GE. That would be so damaging to their collective psyche I'm not sure they could recover. Perhaps @bjo will form his much beloved core Lab to take their chances and banish all the Lab right wingers to the wilderness.
It ought to be Wilder but you can make a case for Zhang.
Zhang is not a bad fight (although I thought that was now Fury's next fight) but it's not the fight we want.
I know for obvious reasons fighters can't box each other as much as say the big tennis stars play each other, but the ducking is seriously bad in the heavyweight division. I think Fury is the worst of the lot for it tbh -
Spence - Crawford & Alvarez - Bivol II look the best fights this year hopefully they'll happen.
Get Usyk and Fury in the ring together, and settle things once and for all. Two-fight deal, first one at Wembley and the second in Kiev.
The total capitalization of London-listed equities fell from a high of $4.3 trillion in 2007 to about $3 trillion in 2023, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Over the same period, the value of US stocks more than doubled to $43 trillion.
If there is any one single factor in the fall off in UK total market capitalisation it is that the regulatory rules and requirements around listing in London (not only on the Stock Market but what you have to do as a company, the various legal requirements you have to make etc) make it totally unattractive. We have a poisonous combination of regulators who gold-plate the regulations to the nth degree and what is effectively a New Labour (still) mindset of seeing corporates not as entities to generate profits but to bring about 'desired' outcomes such as in ESG, diversity etc.
If there was one EU rule that heavily influenced things also it was MiFid2 - and in an entirely negative way when the UK (again) gold-plated the rules making research coverage of UK smaller cap companies unattractive.
What it is not down to is Brexit.
Johnson Matthew's problem is that he wants a load of subsidy for a pile of tech which isn't going anywhere fast, anywhere in the world. For good or ill, electricification appears to be the chosen pathway for pretty much everything* and hydrogen has largely gone back in the "too difficult" box.
*apart from large chunks of the UK rail network, where the morons at the DfT have decided that it's better value for money to scrap existing EMU fleets with plenty of life left and buy expensive new electric trains with diesel engines slung underneath for all the bits with no wires than to put up wires.
Comments
I heard Dialup once ran in the Grand National (fell three times, but remounted)
Gibraltar
Anguilla
Bermuda
British Virgin Islands
Cayman Islands
Falkland Islands
Montserrat
Saint Helena
Turks and Caicos Islands
Pitcairn
I’m surprised you were able to forget the existence of several of these!
If you’re including Scotland as a “colony”, then one would probably want to add Northern Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and maybe Cumbria. Arguably we should count the Orkneys and Shetlands separately too.
“10 GB of free internet per month, that’s rich,” says a 19-year-old first-time Turkish voter, mocking Erdogan’s promise to university students. “This government has already blocked half of the sites I’d want to use.”
https://twitter.com/AlMonitor/status/1655610565266485257
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17509999.anguilla-farcical-british-invasion-everyone-forgets/
Edi Rama - former Albanian PM. Member of the Albanian National Basketball team.
(with thanks of course to Wiki)
Funnily enough it’s Liberation day today so were a colony of Germany for a short time.
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2021/nov/21/i-took-a-dna-test-and-found-a-whole-new-family
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/26/strange-but-ultimately-positive-genetic-discovery-reveals-up-to-1000-relatives-linked-to-prolific-sperm-donor
There's now an obvious incentive just to not bother telling the police and resort to the disruptive tactics as per Just Stop Oil rather than trying to do it the correct way as Smith clearly sought to do.
A shocker for the Met tbh.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/icon-belgian-army-wwi.html?firefox=1
This is somewhat different from a sportsperson who decides to seek election and/or move up the ladder of power.
But Roger Bannister doesn't qualify, I suppose. Politically, I mean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damiano_Tommasi
(He was amazing on Championship Manager 01/02)
What I mean is that I am privy to certain information regarding the present supreme leader's golfing prowess. Even fewer strokes than his father, I hear - two holes in one shot!
Taiwan ? The UK taxpayer ? Liz Truss personally (Hah, right...) ?
Is it part of government strategy ?
If we think it's a good idea, why isn't Cleverly or Goldsmith doing this ?
Britain has lost the global race to manufacture batteries and is now on the brink of losing the race for green hydrogen tech, says Johnson Matthew CEO
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1655879512142360580?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg
The total capitalization of London-listed equities fell from a high of $4.3 trillion in 2007 to about $3 trillion in 2023, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Over the same period, the value of US stocks more than doubled to $43 trillion.
https://twitter.com/ascendedyield/status/1655887809725579265?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg
Rejoin hit a new high in @Omnisis Brexit tracker, with voters who want the UK to re-join the EU now at 63% ...
https://twitter.com/damianlow3/status/1655829183275122689?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg
Being a former Prime Minister of Pakistan is a bit of a death sentence in recent times, particularly if your surname is Khan
Jofra Archer is a doubt for the Ashes after he was ruled out for the remainder of this season’s Indian Premier League through injury.
Archer has returned home having been replaced at Mumbai Indians by his England team-mate Chris Jordan. He spent 17 months on the sidelines because of elbow and back injuries before returning to international cricket in January this year.
The 28-year-old fast bowler, however, played only five of Mumbai’s ten matches this season. He reportedly underwent a minor operation on his troublesome right elbow last month though Archer reacted angrily to the reports at the time.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jofra-archer-a-doubt-for-ashes-after-returning-home-from-ipl-due-to-injury-7qwvvr627
He hardly ever mentions it but he was an Olympian sprinter.
Also the result of his training has been to leave him in old age unable to walk far. Meant he had a massive taxi bill when in Parliament.
“A massive corruption ring uncovered in the Met. Investigators were alerted by suspicious behaviour by the unit - no racism, sexual assaults and a habit of solving crimes.”
Mike Tindall, kids 20th to 23rd in line for the throne and a world cup winner. Some resumé !
Edit: blimmin' heck I just saw that he is now SoS for Wales.
If there was one EU rule that heavily influenced things also it was MiFid2 - and in an entirely negative way when the UK (again) gold-plated the rules making research coverage of UK smaller cap companies unattractive.
What it is not down to is Brexit.
I think Fury is the worst of the lot for it tbh -
Spence - Crawford & Alvarez - Bivol II look the best fights this year hopefully they'll happen.
Spence-Crawford obvs absolutely, but I don't see what changes with Canelo-Bivol II. Bivol/Beterbiev is the one we want.
But then as you say there are plenty we want. I'd watch Zhang fight any of the current HWs fwiw.
Also ended up as chairman of Woolwich FC.
*apart from large chunks of the UK rail network, where the morons at the DfT have decided that it's better value for money to scrap existing EMU fleets with plenty of life left and buy expensive new electric trains with diesel engines slung underneath for all the bits with no wires than to put up wires.
This lot, whoever they are (*), would appear to be paying.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/09/liz-truss-to-visit-taiwan-and-give-speech-that-could-upset-uks-china-strategy
...She is expected to deliver the Taiwan speech in the early hours of the morning UK time at an event organised by the Prospect Foundation thinktank. It was among groups China imposed sanctions on last month in retaliation for Pelosi’s meeting with the Taiwanese president...
edit
*
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospect_Foundation
FWIW, I have no problem with it.
https://twitter.com/hamandcheese/status/1655663839503941633?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg
(Or an Apollo, or a CERN).