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Why Sunak’s ratings might not be enough – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,128
edited May 2023 in General
Why Sunak’s ratings might not be enough – politicalbetting.com

Public opinion towards the [X] brand:LAB: 37% positive / 35% negativeGRN: 28% / 31%LDEM: 23% / 36%CON: 20% / 52%REF: 13% / 38%via @IpsosUKhttps://t.co/T8J3lBRQkS pic.twitter.com/tXIQr6BAbV

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Morning.

    Yep Sunak is doing okay but the brand stinks.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited April 2023
    By the way, I think some of the positive ratings for Sunak need to be understood in the context of what came before. He's favourable in comparison with Boris and Truss.

    This is going to be a General Election where leadership ratings count for very little. Besides which, in the campaign itself I strongly suspect Sunak's ratings will dive in similar way to Theresa May's. He's not only very dull, he also has some murky material in the background.

    Never in any General Election will there have been such a clutch of dull leaders.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: will start looking over the markets shortly.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    How Dubai became a magnet for young professionals fleeing high-tax Britain
    Emirate hailed for offering higher wages, better weather and a break from Britain’s endless culture war

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/30/dubai-uk-professionals-high-tax-britain/

    One for @Sandpit.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    Oh dear.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    F1: long ramble for a tiny bet.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/04/azerbaijan-pre-race-2023.html

    2.25 on one or both AlphaTauris not being classified.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    F1: long ramble for a tiny bet.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/04/azerbaijan-pre-race-2023.html

    2.25 on one or both AlphaTauris not being classified.

    What is the point of a sprint race if it doesn’t decide the grid?

    Honestly, F1’s owners seem dumber than the DoH.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    A former member of the SAS said long hair and beards had become an unnecessary trend amongst some Special Forces units.

    He said: 'It is something which has been adopted from serving with the US Navy Seals and Delta Force.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12029855/SAS-troops-told-shave-photo-emerged-soldiers-sporting-beards.html

    I always thought the US special forces had long hair and beards after the SAS pointed out their regulation hair cuts made them too distinctive in the field.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    A Texas man firing an AR-15 in his front yard killed five people in a neighboring home after they asked him to stop shooting because a baby was sleeping. Police said all were shot execution-style; the youngest victim was 8-years-old

    https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1652313774085513218
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Liz Truss refuses to pay £12,000 in missing bathrobes row: Former PM demands 'accurate invoice' after being asked to settle Cabinet Office bill for 'lost items' and wining and dining at grace and favour Chevening estate

    Former Prime Minister sent bill for last summer when preparing administration
    Towelling robes and slippers are said to have disappeared from Chevening
    The Cabinet Office bill also includes food and wine she and her aides consumed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12029411/Former-PM-Liz-Truss-refuses-pay-12-000-Cabinet-Office-bill-row-lost-items.html
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    A former member of the SAS said long hair and beards had become an unnecessary trend amongst some Special Forces units.

    He said: 'It is something which has been adopted from serving with the US Navy Seals and Delta Force.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12029855/SAS-troops-told-shave-photo-emerged-soldiers-sporting-beards.html

    I always thought the US special forces had long hair and beards after the SAS pointed out their regulation hair cuts made them too distinctive in the field.

    Equally I thought facial hair was something of a tradition in the SAS, again differentiating from the regulars.

    I’d imagine anything that promotes a sense of elite difference and esprit de corps would be encouraged.
  • If Labour somehow manage to lose the next election, I think Sir Keir might just have an epic hissy fit


  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited April 2023
    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    Well if they do head down that "anti-wokery" line, which is what the headline was, after their likely defeat then they will be even longer in the wilderness.

    We've seen this before with both Conservatives AND Labour. Following a heavy defeat the next term sees the defeated party retreat into an even more entrenched position, which becomes even more unelectable.

    William Hague did it with his lurch to the right.

    Generally though the Right come to their senses more quickly (not the ERG obvs) perhaps because money and power are more innate.

    The Left are spectacularly adept at political suicide: Michael Foot, Militant Tendency, Arthur Scargill, Derek Hatton, Jeremy Corbyn. All utterly unelectable.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Dan Hodges says Sue Gray will be blocked from taking a job as Kier Starmer's chief of staff and this will prove Starmer is a sleazebag and slimeball.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-12029197/DAN-HODGES-Sir-Keir-Starmers-mask-torn-away-Graygate-probe.html
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    DeSantis had pre-booked James Cleverly and Kemi Badenoch, the Foreign Secretary and President of the Board of Trade. Coincidence or not, both are Black which might help RDS in a presidential run. Likewise his visit to the Churchill War Rooms.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    A former member of the SAS said long hair and beards had become an unnecessary trend amongst some Special Forces units.

    He said: 'It is something which has been adopted from serving with the US Navy Seals and Delta Force.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12029855/SAS-troops-told-shave-photo-emerged-soldiers-sporting-beards.html

    I always thought the US special forces had long hair and beards after the SAS pointed out their regulation hair cuts made them too distinctive in the field.

    They can be given an exemption to regulations if that has operational value until that happens it just indicates a breakdown in discipline.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    DeSantis had pre-booked James Cleverly and Kemi Badenoch, the Foreign Secretary and President of the Board of Trade. Coincidence or not, both are Black which might help RDS in a presidential run. Likewise his visit to the Churchill War Rooms.
    I don't think Churchill was black, although I'm willing to be corrected.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575

    Liz Truss refuses to pay £12,000 in missing bathrobes row: Former PM demands 'accurate invoice' after being asked to settle Cabinet Office bill for 'lost items' and wining and dining at grace and favour Chevening estate

    Former Prime Minister sent bill for last summer when preparing administration
    Towelling robes and slippers are said to have disappeared from Chevening
    The Cabinet Office bill also includes food and wine she and her aides consumed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12029411/Former-PM-Liz-Truss-refuses-pay-12-000-Cabinet-Office-bill-row-lost-items.html

    If I were Prime Minister, I'd write the cheque myself to get Liz Truss out of the papers, except she'd be back in them when reporters notice a £12,000 gift in her expenses declarations.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    Well if they do head down that "anti-wokery" line, which is what the headline was, after their likely defeat then they will be even longer in the wilderness.

    We've seen this before with both Conservatives AND Labour. Following a heavy defeat the next term sees the defeated party retreat into an even more entrenched position, which becomes even more unelectable.

    William Hague did it with his lurch to the right.

    Generally though the Right come to their senses more quickly (not the ERG obvs) perhaps because money and power are more innate.

    The Left are spectacularly adept at political suicide: Michael Foot, Militant Tendency, Arthur Scargill, Derek Hatton, Jeremy Corbyn. All utterly unelectable.
    The media tends to indulge the far/dim right much more as well.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Dura_Ace said:

    A former member of the SAS said long hair and beards had become an unnecessary trend amongst some Special Forces units.

    He said: 'It is something which has been adopted from serving with the US Navy Seals and Delta Force.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12029855/SAS-troops-told-shave-photo-emerged-soldiers-sporting-beards.html

    I always thought the US special forces had long hair and beards after the SAS pointed out their regulation hair cuts made them too distinctive in the field.

    They can be given an exemption to regulations if that has operational value until that happens it just indicates a breakdown in discipline.
    Well, as long as the bad guys give three weeks' notice, that will work.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    DeSantis had pre-booked James Cleverly and Kemi Badenoch, the Foreign Secretary and President of the Board of Trade. Coincidence or not, both are Black which might help RDS in a presidential run. Likewise his visit to the Churchill War Rooms.
    I don't think Churchill was black, although I'm willing to be corrected.
    That’s just reminded me of the v funny ‘he’s Indian, how much more Indian can you get?!’ sketches from Goodness Gracious Me.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    DeSantis had pre-booked James Cleverly and Kemi Badenoch, the Foreign Secretary and President of the Board of Trade. Coincidence or not, both are Black which might help RDS in a presidential run. Likewise his visit to the Churchill War Rooms.
    Boringly, I suspect it’s precisely because of their official roles that he’s visiting them and there isn’t much more to it than that.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    edited April 2023

    Dan Hodges says Sue Gray will be blocked from taking a job as Kier Starmer's chief of staff and this will prove Starmer is a sleazebag and slimeball.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-12029197/DAN-HODGES-Sir-Keir-Starmers-mask-torn-away-Graygate-probe.html

    First you should be suspicious because its a Dail Mail piece ...as for Starmer, he likes to suggest he is a man of probity, but he is a politician and supicion should be the first thought re any politician
    Would you buy a used car from Starmer? I wouldn't.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    If Labour somehow manage to lose the next election, I think Sir Keir might just have an epic hissy fit


    A carefully curated "anecdote" that doesn't stand up to a moment's scrutiny.

    Hilarious.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    DeSantis had pre-booked James Cleverly and Kemi Badenoch, the Foreign Secretary and President of the Board of Trade. Coincidence or not, both are Black which might help RDS in a presidential run. Likewise his visit to the Churchill War Rooms.
    I don't think Churchill was black, although I'm willing to be corrected.
    Have you seen his statue in Parliament Square?


    Ok, I was wrong!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Dan Hodges says Sue Gray will be blocked from taking a job as Kier Starmer's chief of staff and this will prove Starmer is a sleazebag and slimeball.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-12029197/DAN-HODGES-Sir-Keir-Starmers-mask-torn-away-Graygate-probe.html

    First you should be suspicious because its a Dail Mail piece ...as for Starmer, he likes to suggest he is a man of probity, but he is a politician and supicion should be the first thought re any politician
    Would you buy a used car from Starmer? I wouldn't.
    You'd find it difficult to, as he doesn't sell them.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    A Texas man firing an AR-15 in his front yard killed five people in a neighboring home after they asked him to stop shooting because a baby was sleeping. Police said all were shot execution-style; the youngest victim was 8-years-old

    https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1652313774085513218

    Brought to you from the, "shining city on a hill."
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    Ghedebrav said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    DeSantis had pre-booked James Cleverly and Kemi Badenoch, the Foreign Secretary and President of the Board of Trade. Coincidence or not, both are Black which might help RDS in a presidential run. Likewise his visit to the Churchill War Rooms.
    Boringly, I suspect it’s precisely because of their official roles that he’s visiting them and there isn’t much more to it than that.
    De Santis is pretty enthusiastic about Badenoch in that article. I wonder how KB feels about that endorsement. I'm not sure it's an unalloyed benefit.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    edited April 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Dan Hodges says Sue Gray will be blocked from taking a job as Kier Starmer's chief of staff and this will prove Starmer is a sleazebag and slimeball.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-12029197/DAN-HODGES-Sir-Keir-Starmers-mask-torn-away-Graygate-probe.html

    First you should be suspicious because its a Dail Mail piece ...as for Starmer, he likes to suggest he is a man of probity, but he is a politician and supicion should be the first thought re any politician
    Would you buy a used car from Starmer? I wouldn't.
    You'd find it difficult to, as he doesn't sell them.
    Whether he does or doesn't, the expression makes the point adeptly.

    Rain at Bristol today.. Sussex may be thwarted. Surrey are looking good......
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Interesting comments on the previous thread about interest rates.

    People forget there are six times the amount of savers as there are mortgage holders. Savers have had a pretty raw deal until recently. But now we can lock in deals that should beat inflation if it falls in line with forecast.

    For todays generation I’d guess they have not experienced the volatility of interest rate hikes that we had, really, until around 2008.

    It is good we are getting back towards where long term rates should be.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Ghedebrav said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    DeSantis had pre-booked James Cleverly and Kemi Badenoch, the Foreign Secretary and President of the Board of Trade. Coincidence or not, both are Black which might help RDS in a presidential run. Likewise his visit to the Churchill War Rooms.
    Boringly, I suspect it’s precisely because of their official roles that he’s visiting them and there isn’t much more to it than that.
    De Santis is pretty enthusiastic about Badenoch in that article. I wonder how KB feels about that endorsement. I'm not sure it's an unalloyed benefit.
    They’re both bonkers so probably appreciate the mutual neofash rubdown.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,317

    How Dubai became a magnet for young professionals fleeing high-tax Britain
    Emirate hailed for offering higher wages, better weather and a break from Britain’s endless culture war

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/30/dubai-uk-professionals-high-tax-britain/

    One for @Sandpit.

    This bit was interesting....

    "One senior director at a schools business in Dubai says whereas years ago they would receive hundreds of applications per teaching job, they now receive “thousands”, and many of them disgruntled Brits.

    “They are fed up with the conditions in English schools, with the politics, with Ofsted, with all of their income being eaten up by mortgage payments,” the director adds.

    A teacher in Dubai can earn a starting salary of £2,750 per month, on top of a housing allowance, furniture allowance, private healthcare, school fees for their children and travel expenses. This compares to a starting salary of around £2,250 per month for London teachers – which can be reduced to around £1,700 after taxes and pension contributions."


  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    How Dubai became a magnet for young professionals fleeing high-tax Britain
    Emirate hailed for offering higher wages, better weather and a break from Britain’s endless culture war

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/30/dubai-uk-professionals-high-tax-britain/

    One for @Sandpit.

    Better weather is quite subjective. The climate is one of a number of reasons why I wouldn’t want to live in the UAE.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593
    Just to dip back into a discussion on the previous thread … hospitality and catering have been particularly hit by Brexit because when we were in the EU they offered younger Europeans a great opportunity to come to the UK for a few years, or even just for a summer season, to perfect their English and then go home to do the kind of jobs such fluency enabled. They didn’t mind the relatively low pay or the poor accommodation because it was not forever and there was a significant upside. Obviously, this does not apply to young Brits. The incentives to work in the industry just aren’t there. Especially at a time of full employment.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited April 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    I thought exactly the same. Incidentally, eldest grandson asked yesterday if he and his wife and our baby great grandson could come and visit us ‘ on Saturday’.
    Not on coronation day!
    I expect we’ll be far too busy, amusing the baby to watch the coronation. Even if its on!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    edited April 2023

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Badenoch DeSantis story in the telegraph is interesting because it exists. Clearly some Tory folk are thinking beyond Sunak.

    DeSantis had pre-booked James Cleverly and Kemi Badenoch, the Foreign Secretary and President of the Board of Trade. Coincidence or not, both are Black which might help RDS in a presidential run. Likewise his visit to the Churchill War Rooms.
    Boringly, I suspect it’s precisely because of their official roles that he’s visiting them and there isn’t much more to it than that.
    De Santis is pretty enthusiastic about Badenoch in that article. I wonder how KB feels about that endorsement. I'm not sure it's an unalloyed benefit.
    They’re both bonkers so probably appreciate the mutual neofash rubdown.
    Both KB and Truss look like they've given up on the Sunak project and are already jockying for position in the race to become Leader of the Opposition. By contrast Penny Dreadful is keeping a low profile; unsure whether that is cautious reticence or characteristic laziness.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    ydoethur said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile in Scotland, getting new ferries not the only issue:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65439336

    "Orkney ferry runs aground after smoke in engine room"

    Shiwing why it’s important ships remain non-smoking.
    On a serious (and horrible) note - these ferry breakdowns will kill people, sooner or later. It will be a combination of a breakdown and suddenly worsening bad weather.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Just to dip back into a discussion on the previous thread … hospitality and catering have been particularly hit by Brexit because when we were in the EU they offered younger Europeans a great opportunity to come to the UK for a few years, or even just for a summer season, to perfect their English and then go home to do the kind of jobs such fluency enabled. They didn’t mind the relatively low pay or the poor accommodation because it was not forever and there was a significant upside. Obviously, this does not apply to young Brits. The incentives to work in the industry just aren’t there. Especially at a time of full employment.

    This may be true for some parts of the country but not for others. University cities and towns have a ready supply of workers from the student populations.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    Modelled on the 8pm clap for the NHS. If a few members of the public upload their oaths of allegiance to tiktok, then I'd think they'd be delighted.

    All forms of audiences participation - with the singular exception of panto - feel a bit naff to most British adults, but I can see what they are thinking of with that, and there's just a chance it might work really well for them.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    I look forward to us all taking the pledge of allegiance on here:

    "I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Ghedebrav said:

    How Dubai became a magnet for young professionals fleeing high-tax Britain
    Emirate hailed for offering higher wages, better weather and a break from Britain’s endless culture war

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/30/dubai-uk-professionals-high-tax-britain/

    One for @Sandpit.

    Better weather is quite subjective. The climate is one of a number of reasons why I wouldn’t want to live in the UAE.
    Some friends in Dubai are sending their boys to a U.K. boarding school, so they can do stuff like play football on grass in the sunshine.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Doethur, sorry for the slow reply.

    I'd axe the sprint altogether. Having it as stand alone nonsense on Saturday only makes sense if it's for third drivers. It's nuts to put qualifying on at 2pm on a Friday.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    edited April 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Dan Hodges says Sue Gray will be blocked from taking a job as Kier Starmer's chief of staff and this will prove Starmer is a sleazebag and slimeball.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-12029197/DAN-HODGES-Sir-Keir-Starmers-mask-torn-away-Graygate-probe.html

    First you should be suspicious because its a Dail Mail piece ...as for Starmer, he likes to suggest he is a man of probity, but he is a politician and supicion should be the first thought re any politician
    Would you buy a used car from Starmer? I wouldn't.
    You'd find it difficult to, as he doesn't sell them.
    Dan's article is quite an expose on both Starmer/Gray and Labour's unfitness for Government. It is all the more interesting because Dan was very much a Labour Party shill, yet now he absolutely detests the Party and what he considers to be their appalling leader.

    It can't be denied that Dan has a first hand insight into both Starmer's malevolence and Rishi's genius. Perhaps we need to take heed. Or is Dan just writing any old s*** for the Daily Mail because he needs the salary.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Jonathan said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
    I can tell you're excited, but your side will be absolutely no better once they take office.

    Let's not forget: multiple Labour MPs were prosecuted over the expenses scandal, and some jailed. And, Brown left the public finances in an absolutely dire state.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

    My broader question is: what is it about Westminster and our politics that makes people behave like this, as soon as they have power?
  • ydoethur said:

    Dan Hodges says Sue Gray will be blocked from taking a job as Kier Starmer's chief of staff and this will prove Starmer is a sleazebag and slimeball.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-12029197/DAN-HODGES-Sir-Keir-Starmers-mask-torn-away-Graygate-probe.html

    First you should be suspicious because its a Dail Mail piece ...as for Starmer, he likes to suggest he is a man of probity, but he is a politician and supicion should be the first thought re any politician
    Would you buy a used car from Starmer? I wouldn't.
    You'd find it difficult to, as he doesn't sell them.
    Dan's article is quite an expose on both Starmer/Gray and Labour's unfitness for Government. It is all the more interesting because Dan was very much a Labour Party shill, yet now he absolutely detests the Party and what he considers to be their appalling leader.

    It can't be denied that Dan has a first hand insight into both Starmer's malevolence and Rishi's genius. Perhaps we need to take heed. Or is Dan just writing any old s*** for the Daily Mail because he needs the salary.
    How can you doubt the insight of the man who gave us this analysis during currygate?


  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    I look forward to us all taking the pledge of allegiance on here:

    "I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    ... and then there was nought but silence and rolling tumbleweed.

    Charles is either deluded or taking the p***.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    Taz said:

    Just to dip back into a discussion on the previous thread … hospitality and catering have been particularly hit by Brexit because when we were in the EU they offered younger Europeans a great opportunity to come to the UK for a few years, or even just for a summer season, to perfect their English and then go home to do the kind of jobs such fluency enabled. They didn’t mind the relatively low pay or the poor accommodation because it was not forever and there was a significant upside. Obviously, this does not apply to young Brits. The incentives to work in the industry just aren’t there. Especially at a time of full employment.

    This may be true for some parts of the country but not for others. University cities and towns have a ready supply of workers from the student populations.
    They're there, but that limits the availability in time and place.

    And it doesn't solve the other problem. Part of the package for visiting young European hospitality workers was the year of immersion in British culture. I suspect that was worth quite a lot to them, so they were happy to be paid less cash.

    Replace them with Brits and they don't value that and they will want more money to compensate. Given the thin margins in hospitality, there isn't the spare money to do that. And automation is of limited benefit.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593
    Taz said:

    Just to dip back into a discussion on the previous thread … hospitality and catering have been particularly hit by Brexit because when we were in the EU they offered younger Europeans a great opportunity to come to the UK for a few years, or even just for a summer season, to perfect their English and then go home to do the kind of jobs such fluency enabled. They didn’t mind the relatively low pay or the poor accommodation because it was not forever and there was a significant upside. Obviously, this does not apply to young Brits. The incentives to work in the industry just aren’t there. Especially at a time of full employment.

    This may be true for some parts of the country but not for others. University cities and towns have a ready supply of workers from the student populations.
    Part-time perhaps if they want to top up their loans, but that was always the case. And students usually go home in summer.

  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    Modelled on the 8pm clap for the NHS. If a few members of the public upload their oaths of allegiance to tiktok, then I'd think they'd be delighted.

    All forms of audiences participation - with the singular exception of panto - feel a bit naff to most British adults, but I can see what they are thinking of with that, and there's just a chance it might work really well for them.
    Agree though I’d add football support to panto (and the two are related).
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    ...
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,570

    I look forward to us all taking the pledge of allegiance on here:

    "I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    We were just saying that that can definitely get in the sea.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    I will take the oath with enthusiasm, despite my personal reservations about Charles Windsor's judgement as a man.

    But, he is no longer Charles Windsor. He is now King Charles III, and I will pledge allegiance to the King, who represents us, our country and our constitution.

    There is no contradiction: I'm not a cuck, unintelligent or seduced by 'woo-woo'. It's about my love of this country: loyalty to the office and to the state, our national stability, continuity and our history and heritage.

    And, I will genuinely wish him well too. It's not an easy job to do.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    I look forward to us all taking the pledge of allegiance on here:

    "I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    ... and then there was nought but silence and rolling tumbleweed.

    Charles is either deluded or taking the p***.
    He is turning into a far less amusing version of Spike Milligan.


  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Ghedebrav said:

    How Dubai became a magnet for young professionals fleeing high-tax Britain
    Emirate hailed for offering higher wages, better weather and a break from Britain’s endless culture war

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/30/dubai-uk-professionals-high-tax-britain/

    One for @Sandpit.

    Better weather is quite subjective. The climate is one of a number of reasons why I wouldn’t want to live in the UAE.
    Some friends in Dubai are sending their boys to a U.K. boarding school, so they can do stuff like play football on grass in the sunshine.
    I’m looking out at the incredibly lush green grass (it needs a mow tbf) in my little back garden right now - as well as the raspberries and blackcurrants bursting into leaf and the hop bines running wild - and the thought of living somewhere hot and dusty just feels appalling. We can moan about the rain and whatnot but I love my verdant corner of the world.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Jonathan said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
    I can tell you're excited, but your side will be absolutely no better once they take office.

    Let's not forget: multiple Labour MPs were prosecuted over the expenses scandal, and some jailed. And, Brown left the public finances in an absolutely dire state.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

    My broader question is: what is it about Westminster and our politics that makes people behave like this, as soon as they have power?
    There are 650 MPs at any one time. If there no more or less honest than the public at large you'd expect potentially dozens to act dishonestly in their self-interest, reflecting only a low single figures percentage of the cohort.

    While I think we should hold MPs to high standards, and have robust procedures for exposing wrongdoing and imposing suitable punishments, we shouldn't be too surprised at a constant parade of dishonest MPs.
  • Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Jonathan said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
    I can tell you're excited, but your side will be absolutely no better once they take office.

    Let's not forget: multiple Labour MPs were prosecuted over the expenses scandal, and some jailed. And, Brown left the public finances in an absolutely dire state.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

    My broader question is: what is it about Westminster and our politics that makes people behave like this, as soon as they have power?
    The expenses scandal was an epochal, watershed moment in British politics. It validated and solidified most people’s vague cynicism about politicians, hitherto confined to individual cases. This was more: “They’re all at it.” (And a lot of them were).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited April 2023

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    An idiom for which KCIII is noted [edit]. Are you gearing up to demand his direct royal rule, then, as with KCI?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Jonathan said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
    I can tell you're excited, but your side will be absolutely no better once they take office.

    Let's not forget: multiple Labour MPs were prosecuted over the expenses scandal, and some jailed. And, Brown left the public finances in an absolutely dire state.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

    My broader question is: what is it about Westminster and our politics that makes people behave like this, as soon as they have power?
    There are 650 MPs at any one time. If there no more or less honest than the public at large you'd expect potentially dozens to act dishonestly in their self-interest, reflecting only a low single figures percentage of the cohort.

    While I think we should hold MPs to high standards, and have robust procedures for exposing wrongdoing and imposing suitable punishments, we shouldn't be too surprised at a constant parade of dishonest MPs.
    Except those were just those prosecuted. Expenses abuses were widespread. As were sexual misdemeanours and bullying.

    Far too many people who enter politics have issues, and there is no HR or disciplinary system worth the candle.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    Was thinking Killing In The Name myself
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    I’ve been trying to find an organ arrangement of God Save The Queen. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be one, but I figure I can probably gently improvise - it’s a fairly simple chord sequence.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    ...
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    For those of us who have already fallen out of love with the BBC, such an appointment would be an awesome final nail in the coffin. I suspect someone with substantially more gravitas, perhaps MadNad would be more appropriate.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    On Topic

    "if the locals were solely about Rishi Sunak and Sir Keir Starmer ......."

    They were for mr thats why I spoilt my ballot
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069

    Jonathan said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
    I can tell you're excited, but your side will be absolutely no better once they take office.

    Let's not forget: multiple Labour MPs were prosecuted over the expenses scandal, and some jailed. And, Brown left the public finances in an absolutely dire state.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

    My broader question is: what is it about Westminster and our politics that makes people behave like this, as soon as they have power?
    There are 650 MPs at any one time. If there no more or less honest than the public at large you'd expect potentially dozens to act dishonestly in their self-interest, reflecting only a low single figures percentage of the cohort.

    While I think we should hold MPs to high standards, and have robust procedures for exposing wrongdoing and imposing suitable punishments, we shouldn't be too surprised at a constant parade of dishonest MPs.
    Except those were just those prosecuted. Expenses abuses were widespread. As were sexual misdemeanours and bullying.

    Far too many people who enter politics have issues, and there is no HR or disciplinary system worth the candle.
    Price the good guys pay for not touching politics with a bargepole- to be ruled by nutters, crooks and the fundamentally unemployable.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,889

    Jonathan said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
    I can tell you're excited, but your side will be absolutely no better once they take office.

    Let's not forget: multiple Labour MPs were prosecuted over the expenses scandal, and some jailed. And, Brown left the public finances in an absolutely dire state.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

    My broader question is: what is it about Westminster and our politics that makes people behave like this, as soon as they have power?
    There are 650 MPs at any one time. If there no more or less honest than the public at large you'd expect potentially dozens to act dishonestly in their self-interest, reflecting only a low single figures percentage of the cohort.

    While I think we should hold MPs to high standards, and have robust procedures for exposing wrongdoing and imposing suitable punishments, we shouldn't be too surprised at a constant parade of dishonest MPs.
    The problem is the broken voting system which creates permanently "safe seats".

    If we had the Single Transferable Vote in multi-member constituencies, electors could discriminate between parties (as now) but also within each party.

    This, of course, gives much more power to the electors, instead of the current stitch-up from the top of the party machine - which is why both Snak and Starmer are opposed to any kind of change.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    I wonder how much of our problem's are really down to money, actually.

    We probably need another £150bn of tax revenue coming in a year, each year, of which £80-90bn needs to go on extra spending on the education, science, R&D, transport, energy, crime & justice, defence and the NHS and about £50bn on reducing income taxes and NI.

    No party can get close to that. Unless they can get Britain to grow an insanely fast way, which would need us to develop new technologies and capabilities and retain all the workers & IP (we normally cash out to the Americans inside 18 months).

    Yes. Best case scenario is that a government manages to find some financial headroom somehow, and then invests that into education/science/R&D/infrastructure, which then pays off in terms of increasing the trend rate of growth, so that there's then money available for everything else.

    But how do you find the financial headroom at a time when the demographic transition inevitably means that the demands for increased spending on the NHS and pensions are immense?
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,729
    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    How Dubai became a magnet for young professionals fleeing high-tax Britain
    Emirate hailed for offering higher wages, better weather and a break from Britain’s endless culture war

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/30/dubai-uk-professionals-high-tax-britain/

    One for @Sandpit.

    Better weather is quite subjective. The climate is one of a number of reasons why I wouldn’t want to live in the UAE.
    Some friends in Dubai are sending their boys to a U.K. boarding school, so they can do stuff like play football on grass in the sunshine.
    I’m looking out at the incredibly lush green grass (it needs a mow tbf) in my little back garden right now - as well as the raspberries and blackcurrants bursting into leaf and the hop bines running wild - and the thought of living somewhere hot and dusty just feels appalling. We can moan about the rain and whatnot but I love my verdant corner of the world.
    Don't mow. Or if you must just make a pathway across your lawn. Will likely look fine and much better for wildlife. And put in a pond!
  • Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    Was thinking Killing In The Name myself
    For me that song is forever associated with Simon Cowell and The X Factor.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    mwadams said:

    I look forward to us all taking the pledge of allegiance on here:

    "I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    We were just saying that that can definitely get in the sea.
    Who is "we"?

    There's a lot of egoism here, and not much duty. People who react like this tend to have a puffed up sense of their own importance and not much sense of their wider obligations to the country, which they take for granted.

    You are swearing loyalty to our Head of State, and thus more broadly to the State, not a man who you have to personally and humiliating genuflect to in some sort of docile submission gesture of servitude - the monarch is, in effect, a public servant who represents our State and us on our behalf. He works for us.

    It's a ritual of mutual obligations, and it's your duty,

    So, get over yourself, and take the pledge.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    I’ve been trying to find an organ arrangement of God Save The Queen. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be one, but I figure I can probably gently improvise - it’s a fairly simple chord sequence.
    Playing God Save the Queen for the coronation of an organ?

    Have I misread this?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Jonathan said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
    I can tell you're excited, but your side will be absolutely no better once they take office.

    Let's not forget: multiple Labour MPs were prosecuted over the expenses scandal, and some jailed. And, Brown left the public finances in an absolutely dire state.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

    My broader question is: what is it about Westminster and our politics that makes people behave like this, as soon as they have power?
    There are 650 MPs at any one time. If there no more or less honest than the public at large you'd expect potentially dozens to act dishonestly in their self-interest, reflecting only a low single figures percentage of the cohort.

    While I think we should hold MPs to high standards, and have robust procedures for exposing wrongdoing and imposing suitable punishments, we shouldn't be too surprised at a constant parade of dishonest MPs.
    Except those were just those prosecuted. Expenses abuses were widespread. As were sexual misdemeanours and bullying.

    Far too many people who enter politics have issues, and there is no HR or disciplinary system worth the candle.
    Some enter politics merely to live the dream of owning a motorhome.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    I’ve been trying to find an organ arrangement of God Save The Queen. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be one, but I figure I can probably gently improvise - it’s a fairly simple chord sequence.
    King. God Save the King. (Actually I still trip up on Send Her/Him Victorious.)
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    How Dubai became a magnet for young professionals fleeing high-tax Britain
    Emirate hailed for offering higher wages, better weather and a break from Britain’s endless culture war

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/30/dubai-uk-professionals-high-tax-britain/

    One for @Sandpit.

    Better weather is quite subjective. The climate is one of a number of reasons why I wouldn’t want to live in the UAE.
    Some friends in Dubai are sending their boys to a U.K. boarding school, so they can do stuff like play football on grass in the sunshine.
    I’m looking out at the incredibly lush green grass (it needs a mow tbf) in my little back garden right now - as well as the raspberries and blackcurrants bursting into leaf and the hop bines running wild - and the thought of living somewhere hot and dusty just feels appalling. We can moan about the rain and whatnot but I love my verdant corner of the world.
    Don't mow. Or if you must just make a pathway across your lawn. Will likely look fine and much better for wildlife. And put in a pond!
    I’ll get to a pond eventually, when the kids are a bit older. As a permaculturist would note, too many slugs is the same problem as not enough frogs.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,729

    ydoethur said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile in Scotland, getting new ferries not the only issue:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65439336

    "Orkney ferry runs aground after smoke in engine room"

    Shiwing why it’s important ships remain non-smoking.
    On a serious (and horrible) note - these ferry breakdowns will kill people, sooner or later. It will be a combination of a breakdown and suddenly worsening bad weather.
    The Corran ferry is out of service too which is pretty disastrous for Ardnsmurchan and Morven. It's hard to overestimate the impact this is having in remote communities in the Highlands which are dependent on tourism.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    I wonder how much of our problem's are really down to money, actually.

    We probably need another £150bn of tax revenue coming in a year, each year, of which £80-90bn needs to go on extra spending on the education, science, R&D, transport, energy, crime & justice, defence and the NHS and about £50bn on reducing income taxes and NI.

    No party can get close to that. Unless they can get Britain to grow an insanely fast way, which would need us to develop new technologies and capabilities and retain all the workers & IP (we normally cash out to the Americans inside 18 months).

    Yes. Best case scenario is that a government manages to find some financial headroom somehow, and then invests that into education/science/R&D/infrastructure, which then pays off in terms of increasing the trend rate of growth, so that there's then money available for everything else.

    But how do you find the financial headroom at a time when the demographic transition inevitably means that the demands for increased spending on the NHS and pensions are immense?
    You tell people it's their job to work and make as much provision for their old age using their own assets and talents as possible, the universality of pensioner provision at 60+ needs to change.

    Also, we are currently leaching all our nuclear fusion expertise to the Americans (where we are actually ahead of them in the science atm) for that time-honoured reason that we won't invest and won't pay.

    The time-old British disease.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Carnyx said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    An idiom for which KCIII is noted [edit]. Are you gearing up to demand his direct royal rule, then, as with KCI?
    No.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    mwadams said:

    I look forward to us all taking the pledge of allegiance on here:

    "I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    We were just saying that that can definitely get in the sea.
    Who is "we"?

    There's a lot of egoism here, and not much duty. People who react like this tend to have a puffed up sense of their own importance and not much sense of their wider obligations to the country, which they take for granted.

    You are swearing loyalty to our Head of State, and thus more broadly to the State, not a man who you have to personally and humiliating genuflect to in some sort of docile submission gesture of servitude - the monarch is, in effect, a public servant who represents our State and us on our behalf. He works for us.

    It's a ritual of mutual obligations, and it's your duty,

    So, get over yourself, and take the pledge.
    I prefer to fulfil my obligations to community and society in less performative and more practical ways, but to each their own. Like people who sing football chants at the telly, it strikes me as pointless and odd, but intoning the pledge annoys me to precisely the same extent (I.e. not at all).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    I’ve been trying to find an organ arrangement of God Save The Queen. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be one, but I figure I can probably gently improvise - it’s a fairly simple chord sequence.
    King. God Save the King. (Actually I still trip up on Send Her/Him Victorious.)
    https://youtu.be/RvMxqcgBhWQ
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    ydoethur said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    I’ve been trying to find an organ arrangement of God Save The Queen. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be one, but I figure I can probably gently improvise - it’s a fairly simple chord sequence.
    Playing God Save the Queen for the coronation of an organ?

    Have I misread this?
    No I think you have perfectly summarised the musicality around the Coronation of a massive organ.
  • Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    I’ve been trying to find an organ arrangement of God Save The Queen. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be one, but I figure I can probably gently improvise - it’s a fairly simple chord sequence.
    Crank up the distortion, it’ll sound banging…


  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,889

    I wonder how much of our problem's are really down to money, actually.

    We probably need another £150bn of tax revenue coming in a year, each year, of which £80-90bn needs to go on extra spending on the education, science, R&D, transport, energy, crime & justice, defence and the NHS and about £50bn on reducing income taxes and NI.

    No party can get close to that. Unless they can get Britain to grow an insanely fast way, which would need us to develop new technologies and capabilities and retain all the workers & IP (we normally cash out to the Americans inside 18 months).

    Yes. Best case scenario is that a government manages to find some financial headroom somehow, and then invests that into education/science/R&D/infrastructure, which then pays off in terms of increasing the trend rate of growth, so that there's then money available for everything else.

    But how do you find the financial headroom at a time when the demographic transition inevitably means that the demands for increased spending on the NHS and pensions are immense?
    You tell people it's their job to work and make as much provision for their old age using their own assets and talents as possible, the universality of pensioner provision at 60+ needs to change.

    Also, we are currently leaching all our nuclear fusion expertise to the Americans (where we are actually ahead of them in the science atm) for that time-honoured reason that we won't invest and won't pay.

    The time-old British disease.
    Do you mean that we cannot leave everything to market forces? That would be the end of Conservative Party thinking, as we know it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited April 2023
    Can we get @HYUFD (and others?) miked up and live broadcast them saying the public oath of allegiance to the king here on PB pls.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    I’ve been trying to find an organ arrangement of God Save The Queen. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be one, but I figure I can probably gently improvise - it’s a fairly simple chord sequence.
    King. God Save the King. (Actually I still trip up on Send Her/Him Victorious.)
    I meant the Queen. I don’t think the Sex Pistols have rerecorded and reissued it with updated lyrics, have they?

    (But I know what you mean. I have to remind the priest at Evensong every time to intone “O Lord, save the King”…)
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Taz said:

    Just to dip back into a discussion on the previous thread … hospitality and catering have been particularly hit by Brexit because when we were in the EU they offered younger Europeans a great opportunity to come to the UK for a few years, or even just for a summer season, to perfect their English and then go home to do the kind of jobs such fluency enabled. They didn’t mind the relatively low pay or the poor accommodation because it was not forever and there was a significant upside. Obviously, this does not apply to young Brits. The incentives to work in the industry just aren’t there. Especially at a time of full employment.

    This may be true for some parts of the country but not for others. University cities and towns have a ready supply of workers from the student populations.
    I think it’s rather sad that students fill their free time working.
    But that has always been the case and it does have other benefits than just the money. Expanding their social circle for one.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    A former member of the SAS said long hair and beards had become an unnecessary trend amongst some Special Forces units.

    He said: 'It is something which has been adopted from serving with the US Navy Seals and Delta Force.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12029855/SAS-troops-told-shave-photo-emerged-soldiers-sporting-beards.html

    I always thought the US special forces had long hair and beards after the SAS pointed out their regulation hair cuts made them too distinctive in the field.

    They can be given an exemption to regulations if that has operational value until that happens it just indicates a breakdown in discipline.
    Well, as long as the bad guys give three weeks' notice, that will work.
    This is real life not a Michael Bay film. There are no ops where having a beard is a matter of life or death. I understand why the SF community likes looking like homeless derelicts as it emphasises their collective sense of otherness and makes them a bit more American (a key objective of just about every part of the British armed forces). However, the unit in question does need frequent and forceful reminders that the rules apply to them as much as a 18 year old blanket stacker in the "Recruits' Last Chance".
    If you were operating somewhere where most locals had beards, then beards make sense. If you're not out doing heroic deeds in the field, then have a fecking shave and get yer Barnet sheared!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    Jonathan said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
    I can tell you're excited, but your side will be absolutely no better once they take office.

    Let's not forget: multiple Labour MPs were prosecuted over the expenses scandal, and some jailed. And, Brown left the public finances in an absolutely dire state.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

    My broader question is: what is it about Westminster and our politics that makes people behave like this, as soon as they have power?
    We punish them for hard truths so they are used to evasions. They have to be pushy egotists to get through party selections (or at least your chances are higher) so they think they deserve more. The political discourse is bitter and toxic, turning already cynical people bitter and rancorous. Even the powerful ones feel constrained by realities of power so wish to exercise petty authority or take advantage where they can. There's no incentive to think beyond the next headline which affects personal and political decisions.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    ClippP said:

    Jonathan said:

    On topic, hard to disagree with this really.

    The behaviour of far too Conservative MPs is absolutely appalling.

    The Tories have two problems to overcome to regain public trust, who they are and what they’ve done.

    Sunak is at least attempt at solving the first problem, but with people like Braverman still in post it’s at best a work in progress.

    Meanwhile, on the later point you can’t trash the economy and expect people to vote for you as if nothing happened. That takes time.

    Todays Tories are nasty and they make you poorer.
    I can tell you're excited, but your side will be absolutely no better once they take office.

    Let's not forget: multiple Labour MPs were prosecuted over the expenses scandal, and some jailed. And, Brown left the public finances in an absolutely dire state.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

    My broader question is: what is it about Westminster and our politics that makes people behave like this, as soon as they have power?
    There are 650 MPs at any one time. If there no more or less honest than the public at large you'd expect potentially dozens to act dishonestly in their self-interest, reflecting only a low single figures percentage of the cohort.

    While I think we should hold MPs to high standards, and have robust procedures for exposing wrongdoing and imposing suitable punishments, we shouldn't be too surprised at a constant parade of dishonest MPs.
    The problem is the broken voting system which creates permanently "safe seats".

    If we had the Single Transferable Vote in multi-member constituencies, electors could discriminate between parties (as now) but also within each party.

    This, of course, gives much more power to the electors, instead of the current stitch-up from the top of the party machine - which is why both Snak and Starmer are opposed to any kind of change.
    As a fan of STV I dont think that explanation quite works when non-safe still have wrong uns.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238

    Ghedebrav said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65435426

    A bit odd and feels somewhat at odds with the ‘reforming modern monarch’ thing KCIII is generally going for.

    While I might watch the Cozza if I’ve nowt else to do, the idea that I’ll chant an oath of allegiance to the telly is a non-starter.

    At that time I shall sing the chorus of Closer by the Nine Inch Nails.

    https://genius.com/Nine-inch-nails-closer-lyrics
    I’ve been trying to find an organ arrangement of God Save The Queen. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be one, but I figure I can probably gently improvise - it’s a fairly simple chord sequence.
    Crank up the distortion, it’ll sound banging…


    Perfect.

    I do have a genuinely banging Christmas piece (Naji Hakim’s Adeste Fideles) which begins with the same notes as the final “No Future”s, so I might steal that.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    This is interesting. HMG are looking to buy missiles with a range of 100-300km to send to Ukraine.

    "Missiles or Rockets with a range 100-300km; land, sea or air launch. Payload 20-490kg"

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/international-fund-for-ukraine-ifu
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    I don't have an issue swearing allegiance in the sense it's just an attempt at ritual like an anthem and as an atheist it's never stopped me sing God save the etc. Harmless if a bit naff like many rituals.

    But seeking to shame people into it over apparent their lack of duty is just textbook virtue signalling wokery performing. Even HYUFD was just having fun over it with celebrating the lack of hanging drawing and quartering for recusants.
This discussion has been closed.