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Survation finds 68% saying they didn’t believe Johnson – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited March 2023 in General
imageSurvation finds 68% saying they didn’t believe Johnson – politicalbetting.com

There’s a poll out from Survation on reaction to Johnson’s appearance before the privileges committee and it found that 68% said they didn’t believe Johnson’s assertion that he believed he was following the rules.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    For, unto us
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258
    edited March 2023
    Good morning all. Still struggling to get my body clock back in sync.

    A messy week for those on the right of the party. The splits in the ERG have been quite something. Sunak may have come out of it the happier but all of this is fodder for Labour. Especially come the General Election.

    The demise of Boris Johnson is a thing of beauty. What has surprised me are the number of commentators, including on the right, now linking the absurdity of Boris Johnson with the absurdity of Brexit.

  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Heathener said:

    Good morning all. Still struggling to get my body clock back in sync.

    A messy week for those on the right of the party. The splits in the ERG have been quite something. Sunak may have come out of it the happier but all of this is fodder for Labour. Especially come the General Election.

    The demise of Boris Johnson is a thing of beauty. What has surprised me are the number of commentators, including on the right, now linking the absurdity of Boris Johnson with the absurdity of Brexit.

    The bot is awake.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258
    edited March 2023

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all. Still struggling to get my body clock back in sync.

    A messy week for those on the right of the party. The splits in the ERG have been quite something. Sunak may have come out of it the happier but all of this is fodder for Labour. Especially come the General Election.

    The demise of Boris Johnson is a thing of beauty. What has surprised me are the number of commentators, including on the right, now linking the absurdity of Boris Johnson with the absurdity of Brexit.

    The bot is awake.
    You can't help yourself, can you? Aside from the curiosity that you yourself seem to be posting in the very early hours of the morning, many others on here have noticed and remarked on the fact that 80% of the time you come across as decent and pleasant, and then 20% of the time you are thoroughly unpleasant and vile to people. I'm not suggesting you find yourself 'bound and gagged in a basement until 2025', a wholly inappropriate remark for a family forum, but you might wish to take a step back and reflect on these words, considering how to try and improve yourself as a human being and in your interactions on this forum. Words have effects on others but it's more advice to you so that you don't end up in a vortex of self-induced late life unhappiness.

    Moving on, it has been a strange experience to return to the pantomime of UK (mostly Conservative) party politics. When you're abroad a lot of this sort of thing feels, well, at best frothy, at worse bizarrely irrelevant. That's not to suggest that partying during lockdown wasn't serious. It was. But the Westminster pantomime often bears little or no relation to life in the world. It's almost like an old freak show.

    That Rishi Sunak is doing a decent job of steadying the ship seems fairly undeniable. That Labour still hold commanding opinion poll leads equally so.


  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all. Still struggling to get my body clock back in sync.

    A messy week for those on the right of the party. The splits in the ERG have been quite something. Sunak may have come out of it the happier but all of this is fodder for Labour. Especially come the General Election.

    The demise of Boris Johnson is a thing of beauty. What has surprised me are the number of commentators, including on the right, now linking the absurdity of Boris Johnson with the absurdity of Brexit.

    The bot is awake.
    You can't help yourself, can you? Aside from the curiosity that you yourself seem to be posting in the very early hours of the morning, many others on here have noticed and remarked on the fact that 80% of the time you come across as decent and pleasant, and then 20% of the time you are thoroughly unpleasant and vile to people. I'm not suggesting you find yourself 'bound and gagged in a basement until 2025', a wholly inappropriate remark for a family forum, but you might wish to take a step back and reflect on these words, considering how to try and improve yourself as a human being and in your interactions on this forum. Words have effects on others but it's more advice to you so that you don't end up in a vortex of self-induced late life unhappiness.

    Moving on, it has been a strange experience to return to the pantomime of UK (mostly Conservative) party politics. When you're abroad a lot of this sort of thing feels, well, at best frothy, at worse bizarrely irrelevant. That's not to suggest that partying during lockdown wasn't serious. It was. But the Westminster pantomime often bears little or no relation to life in the world. It's almost like an old freak show.

    That Rishi Sunak is doing a decent job of steadying the ship seems fairly undeniable. That Labour still hold commanding opinion poll leads equally so.


    Sorry, your posts are just a bit boring.

    If you want people to engage with you positively then you need to earn their respect and deliver insight - not waste their time with the same dramatic hyperbole day after day.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all. Still struggling to get my body clock back in sync.

    A messy week for those on the right of the party. The splits in the ERG have been quite something. Sunak may have come out of it the happier but all of this is fodder for Labour. Especially come the General Election.

    The demise of Boris Johnson is a thing of beauty. What has surprised me are the number of commentators, including on the right, now linking the absurdity of Boris Johnson with the absurdity of Brexit.

    The bot is awake.
    You can't help yourself, can you? Aside from the curiosity that you yourself seem to be posting in the very early hours of the morning, many others on here have noticed and remarked on the fact that 80% of the time you come across as decent and pleasant, and then 20% of the time you are thoroughly unpleasant and vile to people. I'm not suggesting you find yourself 'bound and gagged in a basement until 2025', a wholly inappropriate remark for a family forum, but you might wish to take a step back and reflect on these words, considering how to try and improve yourself as a human being and in your interactions on this forum. Words have effects on others but it's more advice to you so that you don't end up in a vortex of self-induced late life unhappiness.

    Moving on, it has been a strange experience to return to the pantomime of UK (mostly Conservative) party politics. When you're abroad a lot of this sort of thing feels, well, at best frothy, at worse bizarrely irrelevant. That's not to suggest that partying during lockdown wasn't serious. It was. But the Westminster pantomime often bears little or no relation to life in the world. It's almost like an old freak show.

    That Rishi Sunak is doing a decent job of steadying the ship seems fairly undeniable. That Labour still hold commanding opinion poll leads equally so.


    Sorry, your posts are just a bit boring.

    If you want people to engage with you positively then you need to earn their respect and deliver insight - not waste their time with the same dramatic hyperbole day after day.
    Talking of which, whatever did happen to Leon?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Liz Truss has requested peerages for some of her closest Tory supporters despite her government lasting only seven weeks after a disastrous budget.

    The former prime minister is understood to have submitted a list of peerages, while No 10 is also still considering whether to grant a long list of honours requested by Boris Johnson as well.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,985

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    I did read a headline, last year, I think, that polytheism in Greece was on the rise (albeit without animal sacrifice).
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374
    IanB2 said:

    Liz Truss has requested peerages for some of her closest Tory supporters despite her government lasting only seven weeks after a disastrous budget.

    The former prime minister is understood to have submitted a list of peerages, while No 10 is also still considering whether to grant a long list of honours requested by Boris Johnson as well.

    I don't see why not. If the convention is that former prime ministers dish out gongs, then, well, Liz Truss was actually prime minister so should have her turn.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,167

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all. Still struggling to get my body clock back in sync.

    A messy week for those on the right of the party. The splits in the ERG have been quite something. Sunak may have come out of it the happier but all of this is fodder for Labour. Especially come the General Election.

    The demise of Boris Johnson is a thing of beauty. What has surprised me are the number of commentators, including on the right, now linking the absurdity of Boris Johnson with the absurdity of Brexit.

    The bot is awake.
    Presumably with her flask prepped and ready.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,167
    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all. Still struggling to get my body clock back in sync.

    A messy week for those on the right of the party. The splits in the ERG have been quite something. Sunak may have come out of it the happier but all of this is fodder for Labour. Especially come the General Election.

    The demise of Boris Johnson is a thing of beauty. What has surprised me are the number of commentators, including on the right, now linking the absurdity of Boris Johnson with the absurdity of Brexit.

    The bot is awake.
    You can't help yourself, can you? Aside from the curiosity that you yourself seem to be posting in the very early hours of the morning, many others on here have noticed and remarked on the fact that 80% of the time you come across as decent and pleasant, and then 20% of the time you are thoroughly unpleasant and vile to people. I'm not suggesting you find yourself 'bound and gagged in a basement until 2025', a wholly inappropriate remark for a family forum, but you might wish to take a step back and reflect on these words, considering how to try and improve yourself as a human being and in your interactions on this forum. Words have effects on others but it's more advice to you so that you don't end up in a vortex of self-induced late life unhappiness.

    Moving on, it has been a strange experience to return to the pantomime of UK (mostly Conservative) party politics. When you're abroad a lot of this sort of thing feels, well, at best frothy, at worse bizarrely irrelevant. That's not to suggest that partying during lockdown wasn't serious. It was. But the Westminster pantomime often bears little or no relation to life in the world. It's almost like an old freak show.

    That Rishi Sunak is doing a decent job of steadying the ship seems fairly undeniable. That Labour still hold commanding opinion poll leads equally so.


    Sorry, your posts are just a bit boring.

    If you want people to engage with you positively then you need to earn their respect and deliver insight - not waste their time with the same dramatic hyperbole day after day.
    Talking of which, whatever did happen to Leon?
    Probably enjoying a nice meal and bottle in some exotic location.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    edited March 2023

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    I think that's too wide a definition of the word "religion". The first definition Google served me (from Oxford Dictionary) is:

    "the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods"

    "Diversity" or Veganism (or Thatcherism or Starmerism, whatever that is) are beliefs, or codes of ethics, not religions. They have the codes of ethics that many religions have as components, but no sky fairy.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.
  • Options
    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,250
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
    Why do I get the feeling that it's a list of things Casino doesn't approve of? Why not add 'belief in markets' 'being British' 'being a cricket fan' 'dislike of the EU' for balance?

    On the difference between the census and the BSA on numbers with no religion in the UK:

    Firstly the Census question is voluntary, and answered by 94% of people, so not answered by everyone as HYUFD seems to think.

    Secondly the ask different questions.
    Census:
    What is your religion?
    BSA:
    Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?
    IF YES: Which?

    Both are probably capturing affiliation more than belief, but the BSA question forces people to actively think if they belong or not.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    That poll is shocking.

    How on earth did they find enough Downing Street Civil Servants to make up 6% of the population?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    This is a bizarre story:

    Principal fired after Florida students shown Michelangelo statue
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65071989

    It shows just how stupid de Santis is.

    Although I suppose he has effectively banned the showing of photos of himself and Trump under the same law on the ground they’re Cupid stunts.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.

    At least one of them would enjoy it far too much....
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    His trajectory has been similar to Tony Blair's, but just much, much faster.

    Blair and Johnson both had killer political instinct at a human level. That is why they both got big majorities.

    Lying with emotional cunning is part of the territory. It works and works and works ... until you are caught out on something big and it doesn't.

    After Iraq, no-one believes a word Tony says. After partygate, no-one believes a word Johnson says.

    Johnson is finished politically. He & Nadine are perhaps the only people who haven't realised this.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
    If you redefine religion as anything that people feel strongly about and think important.

    Brexitism, monarchism, nationalism, militarism, unionism etc then you can find doctrines, sinners and punishment of heritics.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    Or...Boris was so bad that no-one believed him.

    It takes a real feat of mental gymnastics to hold the lie. People just saw he wasn't up to his usual standard - and marked him accordingly.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all. Still struggling to get my body clock back in sync.

    A messy week for those on the right of the party. The splits in the ERG have been quite something. Sunak may have come out of it the happier but all of this is fodder for Labour. Especially come the General Election.

    The demise of Boris Johnson is a thing of beauty. What has surprised me are the number of commentators, including on the right, now linking the absurdity of Boris Johnson with the absurdity of Brexit.

    The bot is awake.
    You can't help yourself, can you? Aside from the curiosity that you yourself seem to be posting in the very early hours of the morning, many others on here have noticed and remarked on the fact that 80% of the time you come across as decent and pleasant, and then 20% of the time you are thoroughly unpleasant and vile to people. I'm not suggesting you find yourself 'bound and gagged in a basement until 2025', a wholly inappropriate remark for a family forum, but you might wish to take a step back and reflect on these words, considering how to try and improve yourself as a human being and in your interactions on this forum. Words have effects on others but it's more advice to you so that you don't end up in a vortex of self-induced late life unhappiness.

    Moving on, it has been a strange experience to return to the pantomime of UK (mostly Conservative) party politics. When you're abroad a lot of this sort of thing feels, well, at best frothy, at worse bizarrely irrelevant. That's not to suggest that partying during lockdown wasn't serious. It was. But the Westminster pantomime often bears little or no relation to life in the world. It's almost like an old freak show.

    That Rishi Sunak is doing a decent job of steadying the ship seems fairly undeniable. That Labour still hold commanding opinion poll leads equally so.


    Sorry, your posts are just a bit boring.

    If you want people to engage with you positively then you need to earn their respect and deliver insight - not waste their time with the same dramatic hyperbole day after day.
    Talking of which, whatever did happen to Leon?
    Yes, I was wondering why the Doctor hasn't regenerated yet.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Fishing said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    I think that's too wide a definition of the word "religion". The first definition Google served me (from Oxford Dictionary) is:

    "the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods"

    "Diversity" or Veganism (or Thatcherism or Starmerism, whatever that is) are beliefs, or codes of ethics, not religions. They have the codes of ethics that many religions have as components, but no sky fairy.
    From the same article, though, "there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. Different religions may or may not contain various elements ranging from the divine, sacredness, faith, and a supernatural being or beings."

    It doesn't necessarily mean you have to believe in an afterlife or a supernatural being. And the Church can be virtual not physical.

    All religions have codes/values, doctrine, and their priests. And the effect on day to day life is much the same as a traditional organised religion.

    Like I say, we are entering an age of polytheism.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    As an aside, Buddhism has no god as the object of worship and is widely considered a religion rather than a philosophy.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Dr. Foxy, ah, interesting. Still not a fan of language-fiddling and slogans, though.

    I blame Caesar. Kicked it all off with his veni vidi, vici rubbish. And that's in addition to his self-named salad.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.

    Dorian Grey?

    The Tories are afraid of revealing their true face?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
    Why do I get the feeling that it's a list of things Casino doesn't approve of? Why not add 'belief in markets' 'being British' 'being a cricket fan' 'dislike of the EU' for balance?

    On the difference between the census and the BSA on numbers with no religion in the UK:

    Firstly the Census question is voluntary, and answered by 94% of people, so not answered by everyone as HYUFD seems to think.

    Secondly the ask different questions.
    Census:
    What is your religion?
    BSA:
    Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?
    IF YES: Which?

    Both are probably capturing affiliation more than belief, but the BSA question forces people to actively think if they belong or not.
    I see we're on to ad hominum this morning. Probably because this is making you have to think too hard.

    It's not just me saying this. There are articles relating to it by philosophers and theologians who've been making this point recently.

    You can look them up yourself.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Jonathan said:

    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.

    Dorian Grey?

    The Tories are afraid of revealing their true face?
    It is not their true face anymore than Corbyn is Labour's true face.

    I agree it's electorally advantageous for you to hear as much as possible from those two, though.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.

    Dorian Grey?

    The Tories are afraid of revealing their true face?
    It is not their true face anymore than Corbyn is Labour's true face.

    I agree it's electorally advantageous for you to hear as much as possible from those two, though.
    Sunak is yet to win an election with the party, let alone the electorate. Whereas they voted enthusiastically for Truss and Johnson and might do so again. Whereas the Labour left were defeated in the 2020 leadership election.

  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,250

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
    Why do I get the feeling that it's a list of things Casino doesn't approve of? Why not add 'belief in markets' 'being British' 'being a cricket fan' 'dislike of the EU' for balance?

    On the difference between the census and the BSA on numbers with no religion in the UK:

    Firstly the Census question is voluntary, and answered by 94% of people, so not answered by everyone as HYUFD seems to think.

    Secondly the ask different questions.
    Census:
    What is your religion?
    BSA:
    Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?
    IF YES: Which?

    Both are probably capturing affiliation more than belief, but the BSA question forces people to actively think if they belong or not.
    I see we're on to ad hominum this morning. Probably because this is making you have to think too hard.

    It's not just me saying this. There are articles relating to it by philosophers and theologians who've been making this point recently.

    You can look them up yourself.
    Are you saying you approve of the things in your list?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
    Why do I get the feeling that it's a list of things Casino doesn't approve of? Why not add 'belief in markets' 'being British' 'being a cricket fan' 'dislike of the EU' for balance?

    On the difference between the census and the BSA on numbers with no religion in the UK:

    Firstly the Census question is voluntary, and answered by 94% of people, so not answered by everyone as HYUFD seems to think.

    Secondly the ask different questions.
    Census:
    What is your religion?
    BSA:
    Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?
    IF YES: Which?

    Both are probably capturing affiliation more than belief, but the BSA question forces people to actively think if they belong or not.
    I see we're on to ad hominum this morning. Probably because this is making you have to think too hard.

    It's not just me saying this. There are articles relating to it by philosophers and theologians who've been making this point recently.

    You can look them up yourself.
    Are you saying you approve of the things in your list?
    No, and I don't approve much of many organised religions either - I even have my criticisms of the Church of England.

    Your point, such as it is, is purely to try and find a reason to dismiss my argument out of hand so you don't have to think about it too much.

    You should. Because it's an important to contemplate to understand the future direction of society.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    Ironically Sunak’s plant based conservatism is the alternative to Truss’ red meat.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    An alternative and more likely explanation is the QT audience is stuffed full of politics nerds and activists who had actually watched Boris's session at the Privileges Committee, and were not relying on their general view of the man or a 30-second clip on the news.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    I am not a fan of that sort of product, but for different reasons, though I could be seen as their target market as a health conscious omnivore who eats vegan fairly often.

    I dislike these highly processed meat substitutes because of their highly synthetic nature. If I want to eat plants, I want to eat things that taste of plants, and prefer a wholefood approach.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    His trajectory has been similar to Tony Blair's, but just much, much faster.

    Blair and Johnson both had killer political instinct at a human level. That is why they both got big majorities.

    Lying with emotional cunning is part of the territory. It works and works and works ... until you are caught out on something big and it doesn't.

    After Iraq, no-one believes a word Tony says. After partygate, no-one believes a word Johnson says.

    Johnson is finished politically. He & Nadine are perhaps the only people who haven't realised this.
    I think the analogy with Blair is spot on. Think of the enthusiasm he generated in 1997, building a very broad voter coalition. No way he could rebuild that today.
  • Options

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    With you on "plant-based". Eugh. Sounds like a term that has been focus-grouped to death, come up with by people who are not Earth-based.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    With you on "plant-based". Eugh. Sounds like a term that has been focus-grouped to death, come up with by people who are not Earth-based.
    It's just capitalism developing new markets.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    An alternative and more likely explanation is the QT audience is stuffed full of politics nerds and activists who had actually watched Boris's session at the Privileges Committee, and were not relying on their general view of the man or a 30-second clip on the news.
    Critically they didn’t ask if they would still vote for Boris. Everyone has always known that Boris is a liar. We knew it in 2019. It didn’t stop people then, it wouldn’t stop people now.

    Boris lying is not news. The only difference between today and 2019 is that many Tories don’t believe this liar can win.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.

    At least one of them would enjoy it far too much....
    Boris all trussed up,?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,432

    Jonathan said:

    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.

    Dorian Grey?

    The Tories are afraid of revealing their true face?
    It is not their true face anymore than Corbyn is Labour's true face.

    I agree it's electorally advantageous for you to hear as much as possible from those two, though.
    Corbyn isn't a Labour MP any more, whereas Johnson and Truss are still Conservative MPs, with meaningful followings.

    Both (all?) parties need to own up to the terrible options they put before the public in 2019, but in practical terms Labour are a bit further along that road than the Conservatives. Easier to regenerate in opposition, of course, but Sunak didn't have to appoint Braverman or Anderson.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    felix said:

    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.

    At least one of them would enjoy it far too much....
    Boris all trussed up,?
    Fifty shades of Sue Gray?
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all. Still struggling to get my body clock back in sync.

    A messy week for those on the right of the party. The splits in the ERG have been quite something. Sunak may have come out of it the happier but all of this is fodder for Labour. Especially come the General Election.

    The demise of Boris Johnson is a thing of beauty. What has surprised me are the number of commentators, including on the right, now linking the absurdity of Boris Johnson with the absurdity of Brexit.

    The bot is awake.
    You can't help yourself, can you? Aside from the curiosity that you yourself seem to be posting in the very early hours of the morning, many others on here have noticed and remarked on the fact that 80% of the time you come across as decent and pleasant, and then 20% of the time you are thoroughly unpleasant and vile to people. I'm not suggesting you find yourself 'bound and gagged in a basement until 2025', a wholly inappropriate remark for a family forum, but you might wish to take a step back and reflect on these words, considering how to try and improve yourself as a human being and in your interactions on this forum. Words have effects on others but it's more advice to you so that you don't end up in a vortex of self-induced late life unhappiness.

    Moving on, it has been a strange experience to return to the pantomime of UK (mostly Conservative) party politics. When you're abroad a lot of this sort of thing feels, well, at best frothy, at worse bizarrely irrelevant. That's not to suggest that partying during lockdown wasn't serious. It was. But the Westminster pantomime often bears little or no relation to life in the world. It's almost like an old freak show.

    That Rishi Sunak is doing a decent job of steadying the ship seems fairly undeniable. That Labour still hold commanding opinion poll leads equally so.


    Sorry, your posts are just a bit boring.

    If you want people to engage with you positively then you need to earn their respect and deliver insight - not waste their time with the same dramatic hyperbole day after day.
    Talking of which, whatever did happen to Leon?
    Yes, I was wondering why the Doctor hasn't regenerated yet.
    A massive malfunction - he's back as Heathener.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    I am not a fan of that sort of product, but for different reasons, though I could be seen as their target market as a health conscious omnivore who eats vegan fairly often.

    I dislike these highly processed meat substitutes because of their highly synthetic nature. If I want to eat plants, I want to eat things that taste of plants, and prefer a wholefood approach.
    I largely agree.

    Incidentally, is there a way to use the Amazon website now without inadvertently signing up to Prime?

    They seem to slap it in your face like a wet fish now every time I go on there.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,250

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
    Why do I get the feeling that it's a list of things Casino doesn't approve of? Why not add 'belief in markets' 'being British' 'being a cricket fan' 'dislike of the EU' for balance?

    On the difference between the census and the BSA on numbers with no religion in the UK:

    Firstly the Census question is voluntary, and answered by 94% of people, so not answered by everyone as HYUFD seems to think.

    Secondly the ask different questions.
    Census:
    What is your religion?
    BSA:
    Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?
    IF YES: Which?

    Both are probably capturing affiliation more than belief, but the BSA question forces people to actively think if they belong or not.
    I see we're on to ad hominum this morning. Probably because this is making you have to think too hard.

    It's not just me saying this. There are articles relating to it by philosophers and theologians who've been making this point recently.

    You can look them up yourself.
    Are you saying you approve of the things in your list?
    No, and I don't approve much of many organised religions either - I even have my criticisms of the Church of England.

    Your point, such as it is, is purely to try and find a reason to dismiss my argument out of hand so you don't have to think about it too much.

    You should. Because it's an important to contemplate to understand the future direction of society.
    Of course any strongly held beliefs show aspects of religious fervour. Hardly a brilliant insight.

    But you seem to have just shoehorned in a list of things that you irrationally hate.

    'hatred of veganism' seems to be a far commoner religion than veganism itself, sadly.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    Ironically Sunak’s plant based conservatism is the alternative to Truss’ red meat.
    Although she came across as plant life.

    Well, a lettuce anyway...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    With you on "plant-based". Eugh. Sounds like a term that has been focus-grouped to death, come up with by people who are not Earth-based.
    It's just capitalism developing new markets.
    It is cynical marketing, aimed particulalrly at children.

    We are not disagreeing.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.

    Dorian Grey?

    The Tories are afraid of revealing their true face?
    It is not their true face anymore than Corbyn is Labour's true face.

    I agree it's electorally advantageous for you to hear as much as possible from those two, though.
    Sunak is yet to win an election with the party, let alone the electorate. Whereas they voted enthusiastically for Truss and Johnson and might do so again. Whereas the Labour left were defeated in the 2020 leadership election.

    ...for now. Let's see what happens if Starmer gets to be PM.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited March 2023
    Tories condemning Boris from a synthetic moral high ground now, enthusiastically put him in office not that long ago. A Faustian pact they are trying desperately to forget. Sunak was quite happy or ‘fine’ to party alongside him.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    felix said:

    Boris and Truss need to be bound and gagged in a basement until January 2025.

    At least one of them would enjoy it far too much....
    Boris all trussed up,?
    They are very few in number, but there are certain thought that must never be had.

  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
    Why do I get the feeling that it's a list of things Casino doesn't approve of? Why not add 'belief in markets' 'being British' 'being a cricket fan' 'dislike of the EU' for balance?

    On the difference between the census and the BSA on numbers with no religion in the UK:

    Firstly the Census question is voluntary, and answered by 94% of people, so not answered by everyone as HYUFD seems to think.

    Secondly the ask different questions.
    Census:
    What is your religion?
    BSA:
    Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?
    IF YES: Which?

    Both are probably capturing affiliation more than belief, but the BSA question forces people to actively think if they belong or not.
    I see we're on to ad hominum this morning. Probably because this is making you have to think too hard.

    It's not just me saying this. There are articles relating to it by philosophers and theologians who've been making this point recently.

    You can look them up yourself.
    Are you saying you approve of the things in your list?
    No, and I don't approve much of many organised religions either - I even have my criticisms of the Church of England.

    Your point, such as it is, is purely to try and find a reason to dismiss my argument out of hand so you don't have to think about it too much.

    You should. Because it's an important to contemplate to understand the future direction of society.
    Of course any strongly held beliefs show aspects of religious fervour. Hardly a brilliant insight.

    But you seem to have just shoehorned in a list of things that you irrationally hate.

    'hatred of veganism' seems to be a far commoner religion than veganism itself, sadly.
    Veganism is definitely a religion. It's purist, dogmatic, and essentially irrational, and like the abstinence movements (also grounded in religion) that were so common at the start of the 20th century.

    I have no problem with vegetarians as they pose no threat to me. Vegans are a threat as they are campaigners and, ultimately, want to stop meat entirely - so they will have my resistance.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    His trajectory has been similar to Tony Blair's, but just much, much faster.

    Blair and Johnson both had killer political instinct at a human level. That is why they both got big majorities.

    Lying with emotional cunning is part of the territory. It works and works and works ... until you are caught out on something big and it doesn't.

    After Iraq, no-one believes a word Tony says. After partygate, no-one believes a word Johnson says.

    Johnson is finished politically. He & Nadine are perhaps the only people who haven't realised this.
    I think the analogy with Blair is spot on. Think of the enthusiasm he generated in 1997, building a very broad voter coalition. No way he could rebuild that today.
    The electorate today is highly cynical about all politicians. In their hearts they know that all the promises of pain free solutions are garbage. The winner next time will be a least bad vote. D-ream need a new song...
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    Jonathan said:

    Tories condemning Boris from a synthetic moral high ground now enthusiastically put him in office not that long ago. A Faustian pact they are trying desperately to forget. Sunak was quite happy or ‘fine’ to party alongside him.

    Because the alternative was your Corbyn.

    Boris or Corbyn.

    If it had been Starmer - or Burnham at a push - there may have been a transition from May that never involved Johnson.

    (Although Starmer's anti-democratic weaselyness over the Brexit second referendum would have kept him out of power. As it might yet.)
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    That sounds more like the extreme ends of veganism. Plant-based foods are for people who want to eat meat without eating meat, hence plant-based burgers and various nut-based milks. Fwiw, at my old works canteen, the plant-based sausage rolls outsold the sausage-based sausage rolls. Try it, you might like it.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Tories condemning Boris from a synthetic moral high ground now enthusiastically put him in office not that long ago. A Faustian pact they are trying desperately to forget. Sunak was quite happy or ‘fine’ to party alongside him.

    Because the alternative was your Corbyn.

    Boris or Corbyn.

    If it had been Starmer - or Burnham at a push - there may have been a transition from May that never involved Johnson.

    (Although Starmer's anti-democratic weaselyness over the Brexit second referendum would have kept him out of power. As it might yet.)
    Yawn. You put the oaf in. You loved it.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 3,926
    Jonathan said:

    Tories condemning Boris from a synthetic moral high ground now enthusiastically put him in office not that long ago. A Faustian pact they are trying desperately to forget. Sunak was quite happy or ‘fine’ to party alongside him.

    I know you are no big fan of the Tories or Sunak but do you not think you make yourself look a little stupid by adopting a “synthetic moral high ground” in claiming Sunak partied alongside Boris?

    It’s pretty clear to anyone with a brain cell that Sunak wasn’t partying and all but the most one-eyed understand that the Sunak fine was a bit bizarre as he had wandered into a meeting where a crap birthday “party” had been set up.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,432
    Jonathan said:

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    An alternative and more likely explanation is the QT audience is stuffed full of politics nerds and activists who had actually watched Boris's session at the Privileges Committee, and were not relying on their general view of the man or a 30-second clip on the news.
    Critically they didn’t ask if they would still vote for Boris. Everyone has always known that Boris is a liar. We knew it in 2019. It didn’t stop people then, it wouldn’t stop people now.

    Boris lying is not news. The only difference between today and 2019 is that many Tories don’t believe this liar can win.
    In 2019, there was quite a bit of "Johnson may be a terrible human being, but he's using his powers of terrible on our side. Sticking it to The Man, especially The Man In Brussels." That's not a bad electoral vibe. It's also why he got away with the early scandals- they didn't really hurt the public. The reason Partygate and Paterson were so damaging was that he was sticking it to us. Then, with Pinchergate, he stuck it to Conservative MPs.

    Boris betrays everyone in the end; it's only a question of when.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    I am not a fan of that sort of product, but for different reasons, though I could be seen as their target market as a health conscious omnivore who eats vegan fairly often.

    I dislike these highly processed meat substitutes because of their highly synthetic nature. If I want to eat plants, I want to eat things that taste of plants, and prefer a wholefood approach.
    I largely agree.

    Incidentally, is there a way to use the Amazon website now without inadvertently signing up to Prime?

    They seem to slap it in your face like a wet fish now every time I go on there.
    Not sure. Despite taking every precaution, at the end I'm never really sure whether I've signed up to the Prime trial or not because Amazon leaves the logo there.

    It is partly my fault. I had Amazon Prime for years until they put up the price quite sharply, when I cancelled because I could no longer justify paying a little bit extra for convenience. I suspect rather a lot of us low- to mid-level users made that same decision and took poor Mr Bezos by surprise.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Nah. You need to embrace change. The market follows peoples evolving taste. Some folk don’t want to eat meat.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,138

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231

    Jonathan said:

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    An alternative and more likely explanation is the QT audience is stuffed full of politics nerds and activists who had actually watched Boris's session at the Privileges Committee, and were not relying on their general view of the man or a 30-second clip on the news.
    Critically they didn’t ask if they would still vote for Boris. Everyone has always known that Boris is a liar. We knew it in 2019. It didn’t stop people then, it wouldn’t stop people now.

    Boris lying is not news. The only difference between today and 2019 is that many Tories don’t believe this liar can win.
    In 2019, there was quite a bit of "Johnson may be a terrible human being, but he's using his powers of terrible on our side. Sticking it to The Man, especially The Man In Brussels." That's not a bad electoral vibe. It's also why he got away with the early scandals- they didn't really hurt the public. The reason Partygate and Paterson were so damaging was that he was sticking it to us. Then, with Pinchergate, he stuck it to Conservative MPs.

    Boris betrays everyone in the end; it's only a question of when.
    Not totally accurate. Given his inventiveness there's always the question of 'how' as well.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    Paradoxically, they are, because if everyone went vegan there would be no farm animals.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,628

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    I think you have woke on the brain CS. I'm a meat eater and really enjoy it. I'll try more or less anything and I love a roast or a good ribeye steak. But I also recognise the ethical and health angle of not eating meat and I'm also keen to try new things so it is good marketing as far as I'm concerned. I'll give new things ago. I'm also looking forward to my first cricket burger to see whether I like that or not.

    It is never going to turn me into a veggie or vegan, however I'm never going to be offended by it and welcome it.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited March 2023

    Jonathan said:

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    An alternative and more likely explanation is the QT audience is stuffed full of politics nerds and activists who had actually watched Boris's session at the Privileges Committee, and were not relying on their general view of the man or a 30-second clip on the news.
    Critically they didn’t ask if they would still vote for Boris. Everyone has always known that Boris is a liar. We knew it in 2019. It didn’t stop people then, it wouldn’t stop people now.

    Boris lying is not news. The only difference between today and 2019 is that many Tories don’t believe this liar can win.
    In 2019, there was quite a bit of "Johnson may be a terrible human being, but he's using his powers of terrible on our side. Sticking it to The Man, especially The Man In Brussels." That's not a bad electoral vibe. It's also why he got away with the early scandals- they didn't really hurt the public. The reason Partygate and Paterson were so damaging was that he was sticking it to us. Then, with Pinchergate, he stuck it to Conservative MPs.

    Boris betrays everyone in the end; it's only a question of when.
    The irony is that Tory party grew in Boris’ image. It started seeing other people and betrayed Boris.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,349

    Interesting marrying that poll finding with the clip from this week's Question Time where not a single soul puts their hand up to say they believe Boris.

    The most likely explanation is that in public, no-one wants to admit they believe Boris. If that's the case there may be some "hidden Tories" in the general opinion polls -- I'm old enough to remember GE92. Might Labour's current lead be overstated?

    An alternative explanation is that the Question Time audience is stuffed full of lefty-sympathisers. The BBC would never do that though!!

    It had crossed my mind. I never watch Question Time for that very reason. It never offers balance so what is the point of it.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    That sounds more like the extreme ends of veganism. Plant-based foods are for people who want to eat meat without eating meat, hence plant-based burgers and various nut-based milks. Fwiw, at my old works canteen, the plant-based sausage rolls outsold the sausage-based sausage rolls. Try it, you might like it.
    People who try it rapidly decide they don't like it, and rightly so:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bear-grylls-diet-vegan-carnivore-health-2ss8f0v8n#:~:text=For, after years of veganism,grains, wheat or raw vegetables.

    Incidentally, it's not like I haven't experimented to see what all the fuss is about. I once tried a recipe with tofu (and almost vomited) and a "cauliflower steak", which was a fancy name for a shit meal with a grilled slice of cauliflower.

    I got so hungry I couldn't sleep and woke up at 2am to have a massive bowl of cornflakes.

    No-one wants that shit.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,138
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    Paradoxically, they are, because if everyone went vegan there would be no farm animals.
    There would be no animals on farms. If you take a Bengal Tiger out of Bengal and put it in Thurrock it doesn’t stop being Bengal Tiger. Similarly if you take farm animals out of farms they’re still farm animals. Just at less likelihood of being eaten.

    The argument that we would lose specific breeds of, say, pigs is correct but actually a good thing for pigs overall.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Royale, while they went down well, when I bought some 'organic chocolate' as a gift ages ago I did wonder what the alternative was. Chocolate with metallic chunks?

    Health and meat is interesting. All the amino acids you need are in meat. Because we're made of meat too. Getting all the stuff you need from a vegetarian or even more restrictive vegan diet does involve homework. And we're specifically designed to eat meat (it's the natural diet, along with vegetables) hence having incisors and canines.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    Paradoxically, they are, because if everyone went vegan there would be no farm animals.
    There would be no animals on farms. If you take a Bengal Tiger out of Bengal and put it in Thurrock it doesn’t stop being Bengal Tiger. Similarly if you take farm animals out of farms they’re still farm animals. Just at less likelihood of being eaten.

    The argument that we would lose specific breeds of, say, pigs is correct but actually a good thing for pigs overall.
    How many pigs and cows do you think there are in the wild?

    A few wild boar (who are a menace) and, er...
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Seal, not so. For most species (giant tortoises sadly excepted) the best evolutionary adaptation is being tasty and farmable.

    Pigs are at no risk of extinction. Likewise sheep, goats, cattle. There's a huge number of animals and species that exist in large numbers precisely because they're useful to humans.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,138
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    Paradoxically, they are, because if everyone went vegan there would be no farm animals.
    There would be no animals on farms. If you take a Bengal Tiger out of Bengal and put it in Thurrock it doesn’t stop being Bengal Tiger. Similarly if you take farm animals out of farms they’re still farm animals. Just at less likelihood of being eaten.

    The argument that we would lose specific breeds of, say, pigs is correct but actually a good thing for pigs overall.
    How many pigs and cows do you think there are in the wild?

    A few wild boar (who are a menace) and, er...
    There should be far more. A homeland for pigs has already been established and, frankly, I’d love to live there…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Beach
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,250

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
    Why do I get the feeling that it's a list of things Casino doesn't approve of? Why not add 'belief in markets' 'being British' 'being a cricket fan' 'dislike of the EU' for balance?

    On the difference between the census and the BSA on numbers with no religion in the UK:

    Firstly the Census question is voluntary, and answered by 94% of people, so not answered by everyone as HYUFD seems to think.

    Secondly the ask different questions.
    Census:
    What is your religion?
    BSA:
    Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?
    IF YES: Which?

    Both are probably capturing affiliation more than belief, but the BSA question forces people to actively think if they belong or not.
    I see we're on to ad hominum this morning. Probably because this is making you have to think too hard.

    It's not just me saying this. There are articles relating to it by philosophers and theologians who've been making this point recently.

    You can look them up yourself.
    Are you saying you approve of the things in your list?
    No, and I don't approve much of many organised religions either - I even have my criticisms of the Church of England.

    Your point, such as it is, is purely to try and find a reason to dismiss my argument out of hand so you don't have to think about it too much.

    You should. Because it's an important to contemplate to understand the future direction of society.
    Of course any strongly held beliefs show aspects of religious fervour. Hardly a brilliant insight.

    But you seem to have just shoehorned in a list of things that you irrationally hate.

    'hatred of veganism' seems to be a far commoner religion than veganism itself, sadly.
    Veganism is definitely a religion. It's purist, dogmatic, and essentially irrational, and like the abstinence movements (also grounded in religion) that were so common at the start of the 20th century.

    I have no problem with vegetarians as they pose no threat to me. Vegans are a threat as they are campaigners and, ultimately, want to stop meat entirely - so they will have my resistance.
    I know plenty of vegans. And I know they are vegans because I have asked them. As in when I invite them for a meal I say 'is there anything you don't eat?' They have never commented on anyone putting milk in their tea.

    On the other hand I know several fanatic anti-vegans who will jump on any excuse to attack vegans.

    I understand that people can very easily feel resentful if they think that other people might be morally superior to them in some way, but this insecurity is coming from inside themselves.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,971
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    Paradoxically, they are, because if everyone went vegan there would be no farm animals.
    There would be no animals on farms. If you take a Bengal Tiger out of Bengal and put it in Thurrock it doesn’t stop being Bengal Tiger. Similarly if you take farm animals out of farms they’re still farm animals. Just at less likelihood of being eaten.

    The argument that we would lose specific breeds of, say, pigs is correct but actually a good thing for pigs overall.
    How many pigs and cows do you think there are in the wild?

    A few wild boar (who are a menace) and, er...
    There should be far more. A homeland for pigs has already been established and, frankly, I’d love to live there…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Beach
    Recipe for ethnic tensions between the seals and the pigs, contending for their respective homelands.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328

    Mr. Royale, while they went down well, when I bought some 'organic chocolate' as a gift ages ago I did wonder what the alternative was. Chocolate with metallic chunks?

    Health and meat is interesting. All the amino acids you need are in meat. Because we're made of meat too. Getting all the stuff you need from a vegetarian or even more restrictive vegan diet does involve homework. And we're specifically designed to eat meat (it's the natural diet, along with vegetables) hence having incisors and canines.

    I think the truth is that multiple things can be true at the same time.

    We need meat but we probably eat too much of the unhealthy sort, but we should still eat and enjoy it - and probably the offal too - and it should be grass-fed and sustainably grown, to the greatest extent possible. Fish stocks can be harvested (who really has a problem about fishing and then gutting one, and hasn't done it with their mates/Dad?) but again needs to be at sustainable levels.

    The rest is that there's just too many people on the planet. That isn't going to change - you can't stop people - so we'll need to engineer solutions to the side effects of the energy consumption and production. Probably adding seaweed and additives into cow herds etc.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Just been browsing pb from December 2019. It’s another world.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    Good morning, everyone.

    I did read a headline, last year, I think, that polytheism in Greece was on the rise (albeit without animal sacrifice).

    The Olympian bunch? Now there’s a bunch of Gods after @Dura_Ace heart….
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    The award winning 'Cow' is well worth watching. An excellent documentary by Andrea Arnold.

    https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/cow
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - religion is far more common than people think. We all have things we believe in; it's just we are now entering an age of polytheism rather than a commitment to organised religion.

    "Diversity", Veganism, Mediation and Gaianism all show aspects of religious fervour. And, like all religions, they have their doctrines, their sinners, punishments for heretics who don't follow doctrine and rewards of virtue and acceptance for those who piously do.

    The word "aspects" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
    Why do I get the feeling that it's a list of things Casino doesn't approve of? Why not add 'belief in markets' 'being British' 'being a cricket fan' 'dislike of the EU' for balance?

    On the difference between the census and the BSA on numbers with no religion in the UK:

    Firstly the Census question is voluntary, and answered by 94% of people, so not answered by everyone as HYUFD seems to think.

    Secondly the ask different questions.
    Census:
    What is your religion?
    BSA:
    Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?
    IF YES: Which?

    Both are probably capturing affiliation more than belief, but the BSA question forces people to actively think if they belong or not.
    I see we're on to ad hominum this morning. Probably because this is making you have to think too hard.

    It's not just me saying this. There are articles relating to it by philosophers and theologians who've been making this point recently.

    You can look them up yourself.
    Are you saying you approve of the things in your list?
    No, and I don't approve much of many organised religions either - I even have my criticisms of the Church of England.

    Your point, such as it is, is purely to try and find a reason to dismiss my argument out of hand so you don't have to think about it too much.

    You should. Because it's an important to contemplate to understand the future direction of society.
    Of course any strongly held beliefs show aspects of religious fervour. Hardly a brilliant insight.

    But you seem to have just shoehorned in a list of things that you irrationally hate.

    'hatred of veganism' seems to be a far commoner religion than veganism itself, sadly.
    Veganism is definitely a religion. It's purist, dogmatic, and essentially irrational, and like the abstinence movements (also grounded in religion) that were so common at the start of the 20th century.

    I have no problem with vegetarians as they pose no threat to me. Vegans are a threat as they are campaigners and, ultimately, want to stop meat entirely - so they will have my resistance.
    I know plenty of vegans. And I know they are vegans because I have asked them. As in when I invite them for a meal I say 'is there anything you don't eat?' They have never commented on anyone putting milk in their tea.

    On the other hand I know several fanatic anti-vegans who will jump on any excuse to attack vegans.

    I understand that people can very easily feel resentful if they think that other people might be morally superior to them in some way, but this insecurity is coming from inside themselves.
    How interesting that your experience is the precise opposite to mine.

    You never need to ask if they're a vegan, they will tell you the first opportunity you get, so I don't believe you.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    Paradoxically, they are, because if everyone went vegan there would be no farm animals.
    There would be no animals on farms. If you take a Bengal Tiger out of Bengal and put it in Thurrock it doesn’t stop being Bengal Tiger. Similarly if you take farm animals out of farms they’re still farm animals. Just at less likelihood of being eaten.

    The argument that we would lose specific breeds of, say, pigs is correct but actually a good thing for pigs overall.
    How many pigs and cows do you think there are in the wild?

    A few wild boar (who are a menace) and, er...
    There should be far more. A homeland for pigs has already been established and, frankly, I’d love to live there…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Beach
    Whether there 'should be' or not, there would not be.

    And in any case, to make a pedantic point, even in the unlikely event that there were pigs or cattle in large numbers, if they were not on a farm by definition they wouldn't be farm animals...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Tories condemning Boris from a synthetic moral high ground now enthusiastically put him in office not that long ago. A Faustian pact they are trying desperately to forget. Sunak was quite happy or ‘fine’ to party alongside him.

    Because the alternative was your Corbyn.

    Boris or Corbyn.

    If it had been Starmer - or Burnham at a push - there may have been a transition from May that never involved Johnson.

    (Although Starmer's anti-democratic weaselyness over the Brexit second referendum would have kept him out of power. As it might yet.)
    Yawn. You put the oaf in. You loved it.
    Yep, I loved that he got an 80 seat majority over Labour.

    And when he served his purpose and didn't do it for us any more, we discarded him. How very fitting that Boris's modus operandi should be played back against him...

    But he only got that 80 seat majority because of 1. who he replaced and 2. who he was up against. Thanks Labour!
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610
    edited March 2023
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    Paradoxically, they are, because if everyone went vegan there would be no farm animals.
    There would be no animals on farms. If you take a Bengal Tiger out of Bengal and put it in Thurrock it doesn’t stop being Bengal Tiger. Similarly if you take farm animals out of farms they’re still farm animals. Just at less likelihood of being eaten.

    The argument that we would lose specific breeds of, say, pigs is correct but actually a good thing for pigs overall.
    How many pigs and cows do you think there are in the wild?

    A few wild boar (who are a menace) and, er...
    There should be far more. A homeland for pigs has already been established and, frankly, I’d love to live there…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Beach
    An interesting article here on extinction and habitat loss.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/18/a-wake-up-call-total-weight-of-wild-mammals-less-than-10-of-humanitys

    In total in the world:

    390 million tons of people
    630 million tons of domesticated animals etc
    Only 22 million tons of wild land mammals.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231

    Mr. Royale, while they went down well, when I bought some 'organic chocolate' as a gift ages ago I did wonder what the alternative was. Chocolate with metallic chunks?

    Health and meat is interesting. All the amino acids you need are in meat. Because we're made of meat too. Getting all the stuff you need from a vegetarian or even more restrictive vegan diet does involve homework. And we're specifically designed to eat meat (it's the natural diet, along with vegetables) hence having incisors and canines.

    I think the truth is that multiple things can be true at the same time.

    We need meat but we probably eat too much of the unhealthy sort, but we should still eat and enjoy it - and probably the offal too - and it should be grass-fed and sustainably grown, to the greatest extent possible. Fish stocks can be harvested (who really has a problem about fishing and then gutting one, and hasn't done it with their mates/Dad?) but again needs to be at sustainable levels.

    The rest is that there's just too many people on the planet. That isn't going to change.
    Give Vladimir Putin time...
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,628

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    That sounds more like the extreme ends of veganism. Plant-based foods are for people who want to eat meat without eating meat, hence plant-based burgers and various nut-based milks. Fwiw, at my old works canteen, the plant-based sausage rolls outsold the sausage-based sausage rolls. Try it, you might like it.
    People who try it rapidly decide they don't like it, and rightly so:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bear-grylls-diet-vegan-carnivore-health-2ss8f0v8n#:~:text=For, after years of veganism,grains, wheat or raw vegetables.

    Incidentally, it's not like I haven't experimented to see what all the fuss is about. I once tried a recipe with tofu (and almost vomited) and a "cauliflower steak", which was a fancy name for a shit meal with a grilled slice of cauliflower.

    I got so hungry I couldn't sleep and woke up at 2am to have a massive bowl of cornflakes.

    No-one wants that shit.
    I once bought edamame beans just to try as a veg with a meat based meal. Thought I would give them a go as it was a veg I hadn't tried. Horrid. However I used those left as a base for a veggie burger and they were delicious. I must admit I also have never enjoyed tofu. However everyone to their own. Live and let live. Nobody is making you eat stuff you don't like.

    I like to think I am a bit of a foodie. I love traditional stuff but also anything new. I'm disappointed when I dislike stuff as a shame I am missing out rather than slagging it off. I guess the only exception is I can be dismissive of junk food, although I do eat some of it.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Jonathan, towards the end of last year I reconnected with someone from a regular client and it was weird to think that the last time we talked there hadn't been a pandemic for a century...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    Paradoxically, they are, because if everyone went vegan there would be no farm animals.
    There would be no animals on farms. If you take a Bengal Tiger out of Bengal and put it in Thurrock it doesn’t stop being Bengal Tiger. Similarly if you take farm animals out of farms they’re still farm animals. Just at less likelihood of being eaten.

    The argument that we would lose specific breeds of, say, pigs is correct but actually a good thing for pigs overall.
    How many pigs and cows do you think there are in the wild?

    A few wild boar (who are a menace) and, er...
    There should be far more. A homeland for pigs has already been established and, frankly, I’d love to live there…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Beach
    An interesting article here on extinction and habitat loss.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/18/a-wake-up-call-total-weight-of-wild-mammals-less-than-10-of-humanitys

    In total in the world:

    390 million tons of people
    630 million tons of domesticated animals etc
    Only 22 million tons of wild land mammals.
    Which of those categories has Donald Trump been put in...?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Tories condemning Boris from a synthetic moral high ground now enthusiastically put him in office not that long ago. A Faustian pact they are trying desperately to forget. Sunak was quite happy or ‘fine’ to party alongside him.

    Because the alternative was your Corbyn.

    Boris or Corbyn.

    If it had been Starmer - or Burnham at a push - there may have been a transition from May that never involved Johnson.

    (Although Starmer's anti-democratic weaselyness over the Brexit second referendum would have kept him out of power. As it might yet.)
    Yawn. You put the oaf in. You loved it.
    Yep, I loved that he got an 80 seat majority over Labour.

    And when he served his purpose and didn't do it for us any more, we discarded him. How very fitting that Boris's modus operandi should be played back against him...

    But he only got that 80 seat majority because of 1. who he replaced and 2. who he was up against. Thanks Labour!
    So Tories cannot claim any moral high ground now. Boris and the Tories entered a mutual Faustian pact. They’d sell their own grandmother for a few seats. Both come up smelling of manure.
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    Last night’s Picard. ❤️❤️❤️

    There wasn’t a single scene that I didn’t love or fangirled over.

    This season of Picard isn’t just one of the greatest seasons of sci-fi it is one of the greatest seasons of TV.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,138
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    As an aside, I'm not a fan of these adverts for 'plant-based' things.

    If they're vegetarian or vegan then being more specific, albeit with a less trendy new slogan, is more useful.

    In practice it means Vegan, but using the marketing of "plant based" expands the market to people who are more flexitarian, eating these products alongside dairy, fish, and even meat, as a way of broadening a diet, and making it more healthy. That's capitalism for you.

    "Plant-based" is a massive turnoff for me - the phrase alone pisses me off.

    A lot of virtue-signalling pretentious wank. On another level, you could also read it as being - often correctly - as entirely synthesised crap from palm oil and plant 'matter'.

    Would I respond differently if put another way?

    Yes. Describe organic/ home-grown / local farmer's fruit and vegetables and I start to get interested - but only if there was some real food to go with it as well. See profile.
    "Virtue-signalling" is an odd term to apply to the term "plant-based" since the whole point of it is to broaden the market to those who are NOT ethical vegans, and thus don't particularly associate with the term "vegan".

    You can say it's unappealing as a phrase, and that's fine. But I think you've thrown the term "virtue-signalling" in as a buzzword without really thinking about it, since that's essentially the last thing it is.
    Nah, it's virtue-signalling.

    Plant-based diet is a thing, now, and it means: "look at me, I'm better than you and I care about the planet."

    It also implies a culture war on meat, which is why it will invoke resistance.
    You care far too much what other people do. If someone doesn’t want to eat meat that’s completely fine. The content of my bolognaise is none of your business.
    I totally agree. But when they try and make my business their business their business becomes my business, if that's not too esoteric.

    They want to stop people eating meat. Period.

    They are a threat.
    Not if you’re a farm animal.
    Paradoxically, they are, because if everyone went vegan there would be no farm animals.
    There would be no animals on farms. If you take a Bengal Tiger out of Bengal and put it in Thurrock it doesn’t stop being Bengal Tiger. Similarly if you take farm animals out of farms they’re still farm animals. Just at less likelihood of being eaten.

    The argument that we would lose specific breeds of, say, pigs is correct but actually a good thing for pigs overall.
    How many pigs and cows do you think there are in the wild?

    A few wild boar (who are a menace) and, er...
    There should be far more. A homeland for pigs has already been established and, frankly, I’d love to live there…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Beach
    Whether there 'should be' or not, there would not be.

    And in any case, to make a pedantic point, even in the unlikely event that there were pigs or cattle in large numbers, if they were not on a farm by definition they wouldn't be farm animals...
    Of course they would be. To take my earlier analogy, you propose that a Bengal Tiger in Thurrock is no longer a Bengal Tiger? It’s a “Thurrock Tiger”, an “Estuary Tiger”, an “Essex Tiger”? Maybe they’d be called “ex farm animals” or “farm survivors” but they’d still be distinguished by their former relationship to farms.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Eagles, not watched any of it but have heard weird things. Namely, first two seasons of Picard being rubbish, then almost all the writers etc leaving and one guy doing tons of the work but actually turning it around and making it good stuff. Accurate?
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