"It's OK to give the hospital keys to the national pervert because Tony Blair had him round for dinner once" is a great electoral slogan for the Tories?
I haven't noticed Edwina Currie on the Tory candidates list again?
I believe the former DPP who never prosecuted Savile might have something to do with the top of today's Labour Party though!
And the Starmer Savile smear is back, and not just from you on this thread.
I'm really tickled pink by northern_monkey using the phrase "unicorn-hunting bullshit" this week of all weeks when the "unicorn" is real. We've had the likes of @Scott_xP posting stupid meme after stupid meme for years about how Brexiteers like myself preferred solution for NI is a unicorn and yet the unicorn is real and has happened.
A throwback to everyone's favourite European Twitter commentator during Covid19 and FBPE Favourite Dave Keating, from when I was opposing Theresa May's deal, is well worth looking back at today: https://twitter.com/davekeating/status/1053224418653159425
Dave Keating @DaveKeating 19 Oct 2018 So what exactly is the Irish border backstop problem in the #Brexit talks? I break it down on France 24. [video] In other words, the #Brexit trilemma:
What solution do we have today to the Trilemma?
Not quite.
“When goods move from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, they will now move without customs bureaucracy, they will move without routine customs checks,” he told Radio 4.
But that’s not quite what the Windsor Framework says. The 26-page agreement contains provisions for bureaucracy that would not apply to goods moving between, say, England and Wales.
For example, the Framework says businesses will have to provide “commercial data” to an official body to move goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.
Later, the Framework says that a lorry entering Northern Ireland from England, Wales or Scotland would need a “document confirming that goods are staying in Northern Ireland and are moved in line with the terms of our internal market scheme”...
A very light touch border, sure. But more of a border than between, say Portsmouth and the Isle of WIght.
Rishi has done very well. But when you overclaim, you risk creating trouble down the line.
My take. It hasn’t dealt with the problem border, but moved the problem to the most worrying place for it to be, the reason it was in the sea in the first place.
Sunak’s deal will not end EU law in Northern Ireland, nor ultimate oversight of EU judges in some circumstances, so for certain Northern Island is still on a different course from mainland UK. This means the “green lane” removing Irish Sea border merely kicks that problem back to increased market surveillance on North-South Ireland border, especially as the EU and UK increasingly diverge - this is exactly where everyone but the DUP fear it being!
So is that border problem really resolved, as some claim, or just MOVED to a more worrying place for it to be in the coming years of divergence going forward?
Yes and no.
First thing to note is that there's a long line of British PMs doing Brilliant Deals With Europe that turn out to be oversold. Something about our national psyche needs a win, rather than a high-scoring draw that ensures both teams progress to the next round of the competition. And sucessful negotiations that stick tend to be win-win.
As for the border question, I think the border stays where it was, because it's the only sane and safe place to put it. As you say, putting it between NI and the Republic pleases the DUP (c'mon, it's a chunk of why they backed Brexit all along) and terrifies anyone else. My guess (provincial physics master, me) is that, as long as they get the computer access, the EU can get the info they need from the Irish Sea checks and there's space to tighten or relax if the green lane gets abused.
Something similar with the ECJ cushioning and the Stormont Lock. They're not just symbolic, but when push comes to shove the ECJ seems to have the powers it needs in the end. And the Stormont Lock might never be activated; the threshold and costs are just high enough to make it more hassle than it's worth. See Norway- they've done exactly one veto, I think.
It does lead to wry amusement; the angriest comments today seem to be from those who welcome RIshi's deal as the foundation to pile more Brexit upon the Brexit that's already secured. Everyone else seems to be saying "the deal looks fine and it's nice to have a UK government who isn't trying to get their way by headbanging."
Maybe the opportunity to headbang was the point all along.
I note what you are saying. But Note how some are posting tonight, if Scotland was independent, in EU and Euro, as is ROI we would need a hard border between England and Scotland.
I am sticking with the big take out of Sunak’s deal is it doesn’t solve the problem of a border in the Irish Sea, it merely kicks ongoing unresolved problem back to increased market surveillance on North-South Ireland border, as the two markets diverge - exactly what many feared and warned of long before we even voted for Brexit. as we consider how time plays out with this deal in place.
Sunak’s Agreement doesn’t really resolve all the issues he is claiming it resolves. And it leaves us sadly with nothing now in the offing that can reopen Stormont and get Good Friday Agreement back on track. 😕
It’s quite a colossal failure really.
Some of it's sadly inevitable. If the DUP don't want to play ball with Stormont and enough of their voters like that, there's not much the rest of us can do. And, despite what some would claim, the Irish trilemma has been shrunk, but it's still present.
But this is better than what was there before, and sometimes better is all you can hope for.
It it better though? My whole argument is, aside from pets plants and parcels in many ways it worse, not better!
Let me explain in bullet points.
Sunak’s deal will not end EU law in Northern Ireland, nor ultimate oversight of EU judges in some circumstances. That’s asking the DUP to permanently now accept Second Class Sovereignty, not live in an anomaly for a while everyone promises to sort out. It’s very easy to dismiss DUP as never satisfied, but they are being asked to accept Second Class Sovereignty in their own country, are they not. New EU laws they can do nothing about, no real brake or Veto to stop their country divulging away from the UK with new EU law and rules.
In fact this deal bolsters EU because it enshrines more NEW EU law in future without NI politicians being able to stop it. It enshrines the right of EU to take 'appropriate remedial measures' to protect their market whenever they don’t get their way.
It does not resolve the problem of border in Irish Sea. It transfers the unresolved problem back to increased market surveillance on North-South Ireland border, as the two markets diverge. This in turn allows an Independent Scotland to ask for exactly the same. It’s actually shining a pathway and inspiring Scottish Independence.
How can it better this week, when last week there was the hope, based on long time promise, all these things would be properly sorted out, not fudged behind a wall of spin. That hopes gone. The hope these issues properly sorted out and Stormont resuming at last, is now gone. How can that leave us in a better place post deal than pre deal?
Again, I think you are wilfully misreading it. EU law can be stopped, just not for trivial reasons or by one person on their own. And where it is objected to, it won’t be EU courts that decide on it. Essentially, they’ve been reduced to advising on existing case law.
Similarly, of course it doesn’t ‘resolve’ the border because as long as it’s there it can’t be ‘resolved’. But it will substantially mitigate it. There have incidentally always been some checks on moving items across the Irish Sea for health and safety reasons. This adds a few more but it won’t be noticeably more onerous for most people.
Finally since the Sunningdale Agreement in 1985 Ireland has always had the right to raise issues about Northern Ireland to London and has since 1998 been able to do so to Brussels as well. (I might add that the former caused a huge amount of anger in Northern Ireland.) So there is another way for them to petition the EU.
This deal isn’t perfect but it’s far better than any other possible deal would have been. Including May’s deal.
I’m not quite sure why you’re so stubborn in clinging on your misreading of it.
I'm really tickled pink by northern_monkey using the phrase "unicorn-hunting bullshit" this week of all weeks when the "unicorn" is real. We've had the likes of @Scott_xP posting stupid meme after stupid meme for years about how Brexiteers like myself preferred solution for NI is a unicorn and yet the unicorn is real and has happened.
A throwback to everyone's favourite European Twitter commentator during Covid19 and FBPE Favourite Dave Keating, from when I was opposing Theresa May's deal, is well worth looking back at today: https://twitter.com/davekeating/status/1053224418653159425
Dave Keating @DaveKeating 19 Oct 2018 So what exactly is the Irish border backstop problem in the #Brexit talks? I break it down on France 24. [video] In other words, the #Brexit trilemma:
What solution do we have today to the Trilemma?
Not quite.
“When goods move from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, they will now move without customs bureaucracy, they will move without routine customs checks,” he told Radio 4.
But that’s not quite what the Windsor Framework says. The 26-page agreement contains provisions for bureaucracy that would not apply to goods moving between, say, England and Wales.
For example, the Framework says businesses will have to provide “commercial data” to an official body to move goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.
Later, the Framework says that a lorry entering Northern Ireland from England, Wales or Scotland would need a “document confirming that goods are staying in Northern Ireland and are moved in line with the terms of our internal market scheme”...
A very light touch border, sure. But more of a border than between, say Portsmouth and the Isle of WIght.
Rishi has done very well. But when you overclaim, you risk creating trouble down the line.
My take. It hasn’t dealt with the problem border, but moved the problem to the most worrying place for it to be, the reason it was in the sea in the first place.
Sunak’s deal will not end EU law in Northern Ireland, nor ultimate oversight of EU judges in some circumstances, so for certain Northern Island is still on a different course from mainland UK. This means the “green lane” removing Irish Sea border merely kicks that problem back to increased market surveillance on North-South Ireland border, especially as the EU and UK increasingly diverge - this is exactly where everyone but the DUP fear it being!
So is that border problem really resolved, as some claim, or just MOVED to a more worrying place for it to be in the coming years of divergence going forward?
Yes and no.
First thing to note is that there's a long line of British PMs doing Brilliant Deals With Europe that turn out to be oversold. Something about our national psyche needs a win, rather than a high-scoring draw that ensures both teams progress to the next round of the competition. And sucessful negotiations that stick tend to be win-win.
As for the border question, I think the border stays where it was, because it's the only sane and safe place to put it. As you say, putting it between NI and the Republic pleases the DUP (c'mon, it's a chunk of why they backed Brexit all along) and terrifies anyone else. My guess (provincial physics master, me) is that, as long as they get the computer access, the EU can get the info they need from the Irish Sea checks and there's space to tighten or relax if the green lane gets abused.
Something similar with the ECJ cushioning and the Stormont Lock. They're not just symbolic, but when push comes to shove the ECJ seems to have the powers it needs in the end. And the Stormont Lock might never be activated; the threshold and costs are just high enough to make it more hassle than it's worth. See Norway- they've done exactly one veto, I think.
It does lead to wry amusement; the angriest comments today seem to be from those who welcome RIshi's deal as the foundation to pile more Brexit upon the Brexit that's already secured. Everyone else seems to be saying "the deal looks fine and it's nice to have a UK government who isn't trying to get their way by headbanging."
Maybe the opportunity to headbang was the point all along.
I note what you are saying. But Note how some are posting tonight, if Scotland was independent, in EU and Euro, as is ROI we would need a hard border between England and Scotland.
I am sticking with the big take out of Sunak’s deal is it doesn’t solve the problem of a border in the Irish Sea, it merely kicks ongoing unresolved problem back to increased market surveillance on North-South Ireland border, as the two markets diverge - exactly what many feared and warned of long before we even voted for Brexit. as we consider how time plays out with this deal in place.
Sunak’s Agreement doesn’t really resolve all the issues he is claiming it resolves. And it leaves us sadly with nothing now in the offing that can reopen Stormont and get Good Friday Agreement back on track. 😕
It’s quite a colossal failure really.
Some of it's sadly inevitable. If the DUP don't want to play ball with Stormont and enough of their voters like that, there's not much the rest of us can do. And, despite what some would claim, the Irish trilemma has been shrunk, but it's still present.
But this is better than what was there before, and sometimes better is all you can hope for.
It it better though? My whole argument is, aside from pets plants and parcels in many ways it worse, not better!
Let me explain in bullet points.
Sunak’s deal will not end EU law in Northern Ireland, nor ultimate oversight of EU judges in some circumstances. That’s asking the DUP to permanently now accept Second Class Sovereignty, not live in an anomaly for a while everyone promises to sort out. It’s very easy to dismiss DUP as never satisfied, but they are being asked to accept Second Class Sovereignty in their own country, are they not. New EU laws they can do nothing about, no real brake or Veto to stop their country divulging away from the UK with new EU law and rules.
In fact this deal bolsters EU because it enshrines more NEW EU law in future without NI politicians being able to stop it. It enshrines the right of EU to take 'appropriate remedial measures' to protect their market whenever they don’t get their way.
It does not resolve the problem of border in Irish Sea. It transfers the unresolved problem back to increased market surveillance on North-South Ireland border, as the two markets diverge. This in turn allows an Independent Scotland to ask for exactly the same. It’s actually shining a pathway and inspiring Scottish Independence.
How can it better this week, when last week there was the hope, based on long time promise, all these things would be properly sorted out, not fudged behind a wall of spin. That hopes gone. The hope these issues properly sorted out and Stormont resuming at last, is now gone. How can that leave us in a better place post deal than pre deal?
No it doesn't. It gives a green lane for goods between GB and NI as long as NI remains in the UK. The red lane for significant checks only applies to GB goods going to the Republic of Ireland. If NI ever left the UK the hard border would be transferred to the Irish Sea again.
Just as a hard border would be constructed between England and Scotland complete with customs posts if it ever left the UK to rejoin the EU
“customs posts”? You’ve gone soft - what happened to your earlier proposal for the hundred metres of sand with land mines, a wall, and watchtowers?
He realised that the wall had been built 2000 years ago and was 50 miles too far south.
Comments
Similarly, of course it doesn’t ‘resolve’ the border because as long as it’s there it can’t be ‘resolved’. But it will substantially mitigate it. There have incidentally always been some checks on moving items across the Irish Sea for health and safety reasons. This adds a few more but it won’t be noticeably more onerous for most people.
Finally since the Sunningdale Agreement in 1985 Ireland has always had the right to raise issues about Northern Ireland to London and has since 1998 been able to do so to Brussels as well. (I might add that the former caused a huge amount of anger in Northern Ireland.) So there is another way for them to petition the EU.
This deal isn’t perfect but it’s far better than any other possible deal would have been. Including May’s deal.
I’m not quite sure why you’re so stubborn in clinging on your misreading of it.