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Huge blow for the SNP in new Scottish YouGov poll – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    DavidL said:

    We can only hope that one or more of the Sundays will think it is worth investing in some post resignation poling for Scotland and give us a better idea of what is going on. At the moment the poll in the thread header looks just too good to be true to me.

    As that great Scot Adam Smith pointed out, "there's a great deal of ruination in a nation." I have little doubt that the same applies to a political party like the SNP which has been so dominant at every level of Scottish politics for so long and has the entire establishment dominated by their placemen and hangers on living off a myriad of public teats which keep producing even as the local authorities are incapable of funding essential public services.

    There's a great deal of ruin in Adam Smith. He was rather fond of the word. I counted 41 instances in The Wealth of Nations.

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    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    Nigelb said:

    British police have banned the Kremlin critic and journalist Christo Grozev and his family from attending the Baftas on Sunday because they “represent a public safety risk”.

    Grozev is the award-winning investigative journalist for Bellingcat, the website that unmasked the two Salisbury poisoners and the would-be assassins of Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader. He has spent his career exposing Kremlin wrongdoing and now focuses on war crimes in Ukraine.

    He is featured in the documentary Navalny, which has been nominated for a best documentary Bafta, and had planned to attend the event in London with his teenage son and daughter. Earlier this month he learnt that Russian assassins had been targeting him.

    “I was surprised to discover that my whole family and I have all been banned by British police from attending this weekend’s Bafta awards where the documentary Navalny is nominated. The reason stated: we ‘represent a public security risk’,” Grozev tweeted.

    “I understand the need to keep the public safe (although I don’t understand how my son or teenage daughter constitute risk to the public). But moments like this show the growing dangers to independent journalists around the world.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-bar-journalist-who-exposed-navalny-murder-plot-from-baftas-7q0ttkpg0

    I'd like to see more details about this.
    Have the police advised them that they can't guarantee their safety (which is bad enough) - or have they actually "banned" their attending as a "security risk" ?
    I can quite see how they might be considered a security risk despite not being guilty of something. If the police consider that an attack on them by "terrorists" may involve massive collateral damage to bystanders. I may be wrong but I vaguely remember Rushdie being told he couldn't attend things back in the initial days of the fatwa as well.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,169
    edited February 2023
    Carnyx said:

    carnforth said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back to Brexit: still not completed (no. 4284):

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/17/uk-risks-disastrous-food-scandal-lax-post-brexit-border-controls-nfu-chief-minette-batters

    'Britain is in danger of a “disastrous” food scandal, owing to lax post-Brexit border controls on agricultural imports, the leader of the UK’s biggest farming organisation has warned.

    Minette Batters, the president of the National Farmers’ Union, accused ministers of a “dereliction of duty” in failing to ensure food and other agricultural imports were safe. She said the government had failed to learn the lessons of the horsemeat scandal of 2013.'

    Gummer burgers Mk 2 coming sometime soon, I think.

    We weren't checking before, were we? Unless we have loosened checks on non-EU food, where is the regression?

    Nice of remainers to admit EU food quality is, in practice, lower than ours, even if the rules are strict, though.

    Spot checks reveal just how low:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/port-officials-siezed-illegal-products-maggot-meat-dover-raid-b1033827.html
    The NFU are remainers?

    But it's one effect of HMG(London)'s complete imability to organise a brexit.
    Yes, the NFU recommended a Remain vote.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36078112.amp
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.

    Are you in Scotland Geoff, or merely wishing Thatcherism on the Scots?
    Both

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back to Brexit: still not completed (no. 4284):

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/17/uk-risks-disastrous-food-scandal-lax-post-brexit-border-controls-nfu-chief-minette-batters

    'Britain is in danger of a “disastrous” food scandal, owing to lax post-Brexit border controls on agricultural imports, the leader of the UK’s biggest farming organisation has warned.

    Minette Batters, the president of the National Farmers’ Union, accused ministers of a “dereliction of duty” in failing to ensure food and other agricultural imports were safe. She said the government had failed to learn the lessons of the horsemeat scandal of 2013.'

    Gummer burgers Mk 2 coming sometime soon, I think.

    The idea that we need more border checks on European goods is the most self-defeating of all anti-Brexit arguments.
    This is a *farmer* leading the *NFU* speaking.
    Yes, she's an advocate for British farming. To use her point as an anti-Brexit argument is to miss the point.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.

    Are you in Scotland Geoff, or merely wishing Thatcherism on the Scots?
    Both

    The Republic of Ireland is now more Thatcherite than England certainly.

    Can't see most Scots though going the same way
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,584
    carnforth said:

    Carnyx said:

    carnforth said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back to Brexit: still not completed (no. 4284):

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/17/uk-risks-disastrous-food-scandal-lax-post-brexit-border-controls-nfu-chief-minette-batters

    'Britain is in danger of a “disastrous” food scandal, owing to lax post-Brexit border controls on agricultural imports, the leader of the UK’s biggest farming organisation has warned.

    Minette Batters, the president of the National Farmers’ Union, accused ministers of a “dereliction of duty” in failing to ensure food and other agricultural imports were safe. She said the government had failed to learn the lessons of the horsemeat scandal of 2013.'

    Gummer burgers Mk 2 coming sometime soon, I think.

    We weren't checking before, were we? Unless we have loosened checks on non-EU food, where is the regression?

    Nice of remainers to admit EU food quality is, in practice, lower than ours, even if the rules are strict, though.

    Spot checks reveal just how low:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/port-officials-siezed-illegal-products-maggot-meat-dover-raid-b1033827.html
    The NFU are remainers?

    But it's one effect of HMG(London)'s complete imability to organise a brexit.
    Yes, the NFU recommended a Remain vote.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36078112.amp
    True. But their members sure arent' remainers! Or weren't!
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,584
    edited February 2023

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back to Brexit: still not completed (no. 4284):

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/17/uk-risks-disastrous-food-scandal-lax-post-brexit-border-controls-nfu-chief-minette-batters

    'Britain is in danger of a “disastrous” food scandal, owing to lax post-Brexit border controls on agricultural imports, the leader of the UK’s biggest farming organisation has warned.

    Minette Batters, the president of the National Farmers’ Union, accused ministers of a “dereliction of duty” in failing to ensure food and other agricultural imports were safe. She said the government had failed to learn the lessons of the horsemeat scandal of 2013.'

    Gummer burgers Mk 2 coming sometime soon, I think.

    The idea that we need more border checks on European goods is the most self-defeating of all anti-Brexit arguments.
    This is a *farmer* leading the *NFU* speaking.
    Yes, she's an advocate for British farming. To use her point as an anti-Brexit argument is to miss the point.
    It's not an anti-Brexit arsgument - it's an anti-crap implementation of Brexit argument. No point in Brexit if it can't be done properly even by Brexiter standards. What's the point of Brexit if you don't even bother with customs properly?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.

    Are you in Scotland Geoff, or merely wishing Thatcherism on the Scots?
    Both

    The Republic of Ireland is now more Thatcherite than England certainly.

    Can't see most Scots though going the same way
    Sadly I confess you are right.

  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081
    edited February 2023
    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back to Brexit: still not completed (no. 4284):

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/17/uk-risks-disastrous-food-scandal-lax-post-brexit-border-controls-nfu-chief-minette-batters

    'Britain is in danger of a “disastrous” food scandal, owing to lax post-Brexit border controls on agricultural imports, the leader of the UK’s biggest farming organisation has warned.

    Minette Batters, the president of the National Farmers’ Union, accused ministers of a “dereliction of duty” in failing to ensure food and other agricultural imports were safe. She said the government had failed to learn the lessons of the horsemeat scandal of 2013.'

    Gummer burgers Mk 2 coming sometime soon, I think.

    The idea that we need more border checks on European goods is the most self-defeating of all anti-Brexit arguments.
    This is a *farmer* leading the *NFU* speaking.
    Yes, she's an advocate for British farming. To use her point as an anti-Brexit argument is to miss the point.
    It's not an anti-Brexit arsgument - it's an anti-crap implementation of Brexit argument.
    If the complaint is that there are "little to no checks on imports that are coming in from the EU", then they are calling for more 'Brexit', not less. To say that more border checks are necessary is to argue against the concept of the single market.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,169
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back to Brexit: still not completed (no. 4284):

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/17/uk-risks-disastrous-food-scandal-lax-post-brexit-border-controls-nfu-chief-minette-batters

    'Britain is in danger of a “disastrous” food scandal, owing to lax post-Brexit border controls on agricultural imports, the leader of the UK’s biggest farming organisation has warned.

    Minette Batters, the president of the National Farmers’ Union, accused ministers of a “dereliction of duty” in failing to ensure food and other agricultural imports were safe. She said the government had failed to learn the lessons of the horsemeat scandal of 2013.'

    Gummer burgers Mk 2 coming sometime soon, I think.

    The idea that we need more border checks on European goods is the most self-defeating of all anti-Brexit arguments.
    This is a *farmer* leading the *NFU* speaking.
    Yes, she's an advocate for British farming. To use her point as an anti-Brexit argument is to miss the point.
    It's not an anti-Brexit arsgument - it's an anti-crap implementation of Brexit argument. No point in Brexit if it can't be done properly even by Brexiter standards. What's the point of Brexit if you don't even bother with customs properly?
    It would be nice if the UK and EU could have equivalence on food standards, but since they won't agree, we have effectively granted equivalence unilateraly. This could be seen a sign of either weakness or pragmatism, as you like.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back to Brexit: still not completed (no. 4284):

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/17/uk-risks-disastrous-food-scandal-lax-post-brexit-border-controls-nfu-chief-minette-batters

    'Britain is in danger of a “disastrous” food scandal, owing to lax post-Brexit border controls on agricultural imports, the leader of the UK’s biggest farming organisation has warned.

    Minette Batters, the president of the National Farmers’ Union, accused ministers of a “dereliction of duty” in failing to ensure food and other agricultural imports were safe. She said the government had failed to learn the lessons of the horsemeat scandal of 2013.'

    Gummer burgers Mk 2 coming sometime soon, I think.

    The idea that we need more border checks on European goods is the most self-defeating of all anti-Brexit arguments.
    This is a *farmer* leading the *NFU* speaking.
    Yes, she's an advocate for British farming. To use her point as an anti-Brexit argument is to miss the point.
    It's not an anti-Brexit arsgument - it's an anti-crap implementation of Brexit argument. No point in Brexit if it can't be done properly even by Brexiter standards. What's the point of Brexit if you don't even bother with customs properly?
    The horsemeat scandal happened pre the referendum....what is the point of the eu if it allows food safety to be compromised and the reason food safety was compromised was because the meat came from EU countries so we were meant to trust it was safe.....pot kettle
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Having read through that Dominion filing in their Fox lawsuit, a great many people unsurprisingly come off as incredibly dishonest, but the presenter Lou Dobbs seems to be the biggest and most reckless idiot in terms of seeming to believe things despite his own people telling him it was not true.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    Just out of interest, I wonder if anyone here has suggested any conceivable justification for the release of the information about Nicola Bulley by the police.

    I haven't been following, so if anyone did I would have missed it.
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    CorrectHorseBattery3CorrectHorseBattery3 Posts: 2,757
    edited February 2023

    Nice one, I’ve got back into the 5km runs myself. Under 25 mins on a good day, downhill with a following wind. Not bad I don’t think, I’ll be 45 next week. The gut is slowly going. Which is nice. Hope you have a good one!

    My feeling is there are a lot of people up here feeling the pinch financially. The Johnsonian Get Brexit Done invasion of the Red Wall was a one trick pony. People can see the empty shelves, are seeing the price rises, the strikes, the increasingly pervasive feeling that the country is spiralling downhill. Sure, some folk have got pay-rises - a mate of mine has become a HGV driver and his wage has gone up £30k - but most people are poorer, andworried. Pubs are empty, shops are shutting, we’re fucked.

    Which means, I think, that the Tories are fucked up here next time. Starmer doesn’t arouse blazing passion, but he doesn’t repel people like Corbyn did. It was squeaky bum time for my MP, Yvette Cooper, in 2019, but she’ll be safe now. The Red Wall will go back to Labour.

    My friend 25 minutes for 5K is fantastic, certainly puts you well above average! I'm trying to break the sub 20 goal eventually, at the moment only running a few minutes whilst I slowly recover from my shin splints.

    Yvette will have a big majority IMHO, she's impressive.

    I feel similar anger from the Tories in London (of course) but in the posh South East there is a strong feeling that they need to go. People are not frightened by a Starmer victory and actually many people see him as too boring to do anything dangerous. A big asset IMHO.

    I do not believe Ed M nor Brown aroused passion either, they both still held those seats comfortably. And indeed even in 2005 Blair did.
  • Options

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    On topic: David Clegg (who I am not familiar with) has this to say in the Washington Post:
    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/02/16/nicola-sturgeon-snp-scotland-politics/

    "The SNP has won eight elections in eight years under Sturgeon, and few observers believed the next British general election, due no later than January 2025, would see Scotland return a substantively different result."

    And:
    "Sturgeon’s farewell offered no self-reflection about her own contributions to the country’s polarization, but that might have been beside the point. Lately the tribal nature of the independence debate in Scotland — amplified by the social media echo chamber — has made the normal functioning of politics seem next to impossible. Is that any different from the impact of Brexit in Britain or of Donald Trump in the United States?"

    I don't know enough about Sturgeon and Scottish politics to have an opinion on the piece, but thought many of you might like to know about it.

    (Though I will say the piece does have a touch of those famous lines about the people failing the government.)

    David Clegg is the editor of the Dundee Courier, owned by a firm wehich is generally regarded as anti-independence, certainly in its other newspaper the Sunday Post. But of course this is not a D C Thomson newspaper he is publishing in.
    Didn’t DC Thompson do comics?
    Still do, including in the Sunday Post, which to many folk, and certainly me in my younger days, is a comic with some news. It's where the Broons and Oor Wullie are published.
    And, back in the day, ITV in Southern England.
    ITV?
    It's an old-style 'television channel' from back in the day.
    And yes, DC Thompson were one of the companies who did Southern Television (Worzel Gummidge, Houseparty, Take a letter Mr Jones and a variety show fronted by their weatherman).
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    sarissa said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see everyone down south is copying the standard of hysterics we expect from Leon, clowns everywhere dribbling over one bollox poll, dearie dearie me.

    How many barrels of cask strength turnip juice have you got through, since the news?

    You've definitely lost the angry edge today. Is it possible, dare I suggest, that you are happy?
    Bit of both , glad the wicked witch is gone , apprehensive that the Macbeths will be in Bute House and we will be back where we started. Time someone published the e-mails.
    Are there any SNP candidates you would be happy with? Forbes, or is she still too close to the Sturgeon set?
    Would not want any of Sturgeon's lot, all just butt lickers. Forbes has never went against anything re Sturgeon and chose to duck GRR rather than even abstain on GRR, so not sure on her. Macbeths will be a disaster for obvious reasons if you are Scottish and most of rest are just seat warmers, so answer is not sure at all who I would want. Maybe Ash Regan may be best of bad lot. Totally shocked that people are suggesting Humza Useless could even throw his hat in the ring.
    Bit meandering but most have beenso scared to say boo to Sturgeon or have been serious butt lickers to know if any talent there at all, so Forbes or Regan it would have to be.
    What about the betting fav - Robertson?
    A slight drift in his price - the only significant moves on Ladbrokes are Keith Brown from 20/1 to 12, and Ash Regan (my outside pick) from 66 to 16. May be a thin market as yet though.
    Brown is another useless lying donkey , hard to believe he could have even a very very remote hope. Regan could be a dark horse, given Cheery out of running she is only one ever said Boo to Sturgeon.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Scottish Labour to sell empty homes for £1

    https://twitter.com/ScottishLabour/status/1626642222731956228?s=20
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    Is the concern with Forbes that she's leading a party which wouldn't agree with her at all? Maybe under Salmond but the SNP now is very liberal?
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    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited February 2023

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes to fund transfers North? Many of the highest earners who work in London also live in the Home Counties.

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:
    Fck autocorrect
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    Chris said:

    Just out of interest, I wonder if anyone here has suggested any conceivable justification for the release of the information about Nicola Bulley by the police.

    I haven't been following, so if anyone did I would have missed it.

    I can't think there's the slightest justification. Someone f*cked up. My suspicion is that the investigation team, or at least some on it, have assumed there is no crime because... reasons to do with their assessment of Ms Buller's character/health.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,116
    Chris said:

    Just out of interest, I wonder if anyone here has suggested any conceivable justification for the release of the information about Nicola Bulley by the police.

    I haven't been following, so if anyone did I would have missed it.

    I think it’s arse covering. My belief, and it’s nothing more than that, is that the prior police involvement at her house was suicide related, and that’s why they so readily latched onto the drowning theory. Of course this earlier visit wasn’t in the public domain, and with the recent criticism I think they are trying to justify decisions.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,217

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    If it is anything like the schemes in Italy (and I think Spain) the issue is that they are in areas where people don't want to live.

    The reason that properties get abandoned is that people don't want to live there, even as the price approaches zero.

    So unless you change the desirability of the locality, not much will change in the end.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited February 2023

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
  • Options
    Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    British police have banned the Kremlin critic and journalist Christo Grozev and his family from attending the Baftas on Sunday because they “represent a public safety risk”.

    Grozev is the award-winning investigative journalist for Bellingcat, the website that unmasked the two Salisbury poisoners and the would-be assassins of Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader. He has spent his career exposing Kremlin wrongdoing and now focuses on war crimes in Ukraine.

    He is featured in the documentary Navalny, which has been nominated for a best documentary Bafta, and had planned to attend the event in London with his teenage son and daughter. Earlier this month he learnt that Russian assassins had been targeting him.

    “I was surprised to discover that my whole family and I have all been banned by British police from attending this weekend’s Bafta awards where the documentary Navalny is nominated. The reason stated: we ‘represent a public security risk’,” Grozev tweeted.

    “I understand the need to keep the public safe (although I don’t understand how my son or teenage daughter constitute risk to the public). But moments like this show the growing dangers to independent journalists around the world.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-bar-journalist-who-exposed-navalny-murder-plot-from-baftas-7q0ttkpg0

    I'd like to see more details about this.
    Have the police advised them that they can't guarantee their safety (which is bad enough) - or have they actually "banned" their attending as a "security risk" ?
    I can quite see how they might be considered a security risk despite not being guilty of something. If the police consider that an attack on them by "terrorists" may involve massive collateral damage to bystanders. I may be wrong but I vaguely remember Rushdie being told he couldn't attend things back in the initial days of the fatwa as well.
    Rushdie was under police protection. This journalist isn't, AFAIK.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    On topic: David Clegg (who I am not familiar with) has this to say in the Washington Post:
    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/02/16/nicola-sturgeon-snp-scotland-politics/

    "The SNP has won eight elections in eight years under Sturgeon, and few observers believed the next British general election, due no later than January 2025, would see Scotland return a substantively different result."

    And:
    "Sturgeon’s farewell offered no self-reflection about her own contributions to the country’s polarization, but that might have been beside the point. Lately the tribal nature of the independence debate in Scotland — amplified by the social media echo chamber — has made the normal functioning of politics seem next to impossible. Is that any different from the impact of Brexit in Britain or of Donald Trump in the United States?"

    I don't know enough about Sturgeon and Scottish politics to have an opinion on the piece, but thought many of you might like to know about it.

    (Though I will say the piece does have a touch of those famous lines about the people failing the government.)

    David Clegg is the editor of the Dundee Courier, owned by a firm wehich is generally regarded as anti-independence, certainly in its other newspaper the Sunday Post. But of course this is not a D C Thomson newspaper he is publishing in.
    Didn’t DC Thompson do comics?
    Still do, including in the Sunday Post, which to many folk, and certainly me in my younger days, is a comic with some news. It's where the Broons and Oor Wullie are published.
    And, back in the day, ITV in Southern England.
    ITV?
    It's an old-style 'television channel' from back in the day.
    And yes, DC Thompson were one of the companies who did Southern Television (Worzel Gummidge, Houseparty, Take a letter Mr Jones and a variety show fronted by their weatherman).
    How can you miss out the all time classic Out of Town?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Hargreaves
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 6,977

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited February 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes to fund transfers North? Many of the highest earners who work in London also live in the Home Counties.

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Yes that's true, too.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    You genuinely believe there are no differences in national character between, say, the Japanese, the Aboriginal Australians of northern Queensland, the Icelandics, the San Bushmen of Botswana, the Inuit and the Ashkenazi Jews? None at all?

    I get why you ‘have’ to pay lip service to this bullshit, because if you admit it, you admit there are differences between human races. But your discomfort does not stop your supposed belief from being juvenile bullshit
  • Options

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Given how popular Thatcher was in Scotland, I think you may have to dream on.
    Thatcher was more popular in Scotland than either Heath before her or Major after her.
    Her problem was that she was polarising, leading to massive anti-Tory tactical votng from all sides.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,584

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097

    Chris said:

    Just out of interest, I wonder if anyone here has suggested any conceivable justification for the release of the information about Nicola Bulley by the police.

    I haven't been following, so if anyone did I would have missed it.

    I think it’s arse covering.
    I can see that would be an obvious possible explanation. That's why I wondered whether anyone had come up with an alternative explanation that could justify it.

    Generally the release of this kind of information is very strongly circumscribed by law, even when the person concerned is deceased. The BBC reported earlier that an "aide" of the Home Secretary "stressed the decision was a matter for Lancashire Police." As far as I know the police aren't above the law, so I doubt that's correct. The reported involvement of the Information Commissioner would tend to confirm that.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    But your beloved FPTP delivers Labour a majority in the Sengland parliament, HY.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/area_seast.html
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/area_lond.html
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    RunDeep said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    British police have banned the Kremlin critic and journalist Christo Grozev and his family from attending the Baftas on Sunday because they “represent a public safety risk”.

    Grozev is the award-winning investigative journalist for Bellingcat, the website that unmasked the two Salisbury poisoners and the would-be assassins of Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader. He has spent his career exposing Kremlin wrongdoing and now focuses on war crimes in Ukraine.

    He is featured in the documentary Navalny, which has been nominated for a best documentary Bafta, and had planned to attend the event in London with his teenage son and daughter. Earlier this month he learnt that Russian assassins had been targeting him.

    “I was surprised to discover that my whole family and I have all been banned by British police from attending this weekend’s Bafta awards where the documentary Navalny is nominated. The reason stated: we ‘represent a public security risk’,” Grozev tweeted.

    “I understand the need to keep the public safe (although I don’t understand how my son or teenage daughter constitute risk to the public). But moments like this show the growing dangers to independent journalists around the world.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-bar-journalist-who-exposed-navalny-murder-plot-from-baftas-7q0ttkpg0

    I'd like to see more details about this.
    Have the police advised them that they can't guarantee their safety (which is bad enough) - or have they actually "banned" their attending as a "security risk" ?
    I can quite see how they might be considered a security risk despite not being guilty of something. If the police consider that an attack on them by "terrorists" may involve massive collateral damage to bystanders. I may be wrong but I vaguely remember Rushdie being told he couldn't attend things back in the initial days of the fatwa as well.
    Rushdie was under police protection. This journalist isn't, AFAIK.
    I can see a protection point of view though as there may be a state actor willing to poison the whole bafta ceremony to get revenge on a single man. My view would be they shouldn't be able to ban him but they could certainly advise the ceremony organisers and guests there is a risk if he attends
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    But your beloved FPTP delivers Labour a majority in the Sengland parliament, HY.
    Because politics would be exactly the same in those circumstances?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    LDs in the South tend to be more of the Orange Book than Social Democrat variety
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected, I suspect they still won't fill in all the seats on a minibus after the next election
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,880

    Chris said:

    Just out of interest, I wonder if anyone here has suggested any conceivable justification for the release of the information about Nicola Bulley by the police.

    I haven't been following, so if anyone did I would have missed it.

    I can't think there's the slightest justification. Someone f*cked up. My suspicion is that the investigation team, or at least some on it, have assumed there is no crime because... reasons to do with their assessment of Ms Buller's character/health.
    DavidL was right last night: the police should have just put up with the criticism and keep that to themselves.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    edited February 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    How do either of those two policies disproportionally affect the poor?

    Regarding empty homes and hospital stays: If your home is unoccupied because you live in a care home or hostel, you are in hospital on a permanent basis, or you have gone to live somewhere else to provide or receive personal care due to age, illness or disability, you are exempt from Council Tax.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,363
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    You genuinely believe there are no differences in national character between, say, the Japanese, the Aboriginal Australians of northern Queensland, the Icelandics, the San Bushmen of Botswana, the Inuit and the Ashkenazi Jews? None at all?

    I get why you ‘have’ to pay lip service to this bullshit, because if you admit it, you admit there are differences between human races. But your discomfort does not stop your supposed belief from being juvenile bullshit
    Perhaps kinabalu feels uncomfortable with the implication that, say, Japanese people are simply born more polite than French people, and that a Japanese baby adopted by a Parisien couple would grow up polite despite its environment?
    In which case, perhaps we could call 'national character' some term like 'preferred behavioural norms for the culture'?
    It would be less snappy and might be less clear what you meant though.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    LDs in the South tend to be more of the Orange Book than Social Democrat variety
    You really think Lib Dems supporters in the South of England are going to vote Tory to "keep Labour out"? Can you really be so deluded?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,584
    edited February 2023

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    How do either of those two policies disproportionally affect the poor?

    Regarding empty homes and hospital stays: If your home is unoccupied because you live in a care home or hostel, you are in hospital on a permanent basis, or you have gone to live somewhere else to provide or receive personal care due to age, illness or disability, you are exempt from Council Tax.
    On the former: council tax is a much higher percentage of the house value for poor people. Edit: was referring only to the CT increase.

    The details will be important.

    On the latter: thanks.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    But your beloved FPTP delivers Labour a majority in the Sengland parliament, HY.
    Because politics would be exactly the same in those circumstances?
    I was only responding to HYUFD who, as usual, is talking bollocks.

    I notice he's now appropriated the LDs to his right-wing coalition.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 3,859
    Pagan2 said:

    RunDeep said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    British police have banned the Kremlin critic and journalist Christo Grozev and his family from attending the Baftas on Sunday because they “represent a public safety risk”.

    Grozev is the award-winning investigative journalist for Bellingcat, the website that unmasked the two Salisbury poisoners and the would-be assassins of Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader. He has spent his career exposing Kremlin wrongdoing and now focuses on war crimes in Ukraine.

    He is featured in the documentary Navalny, which has been nominated for a best documentary Bafta, and had planned to attend the event in London with his teenage son and daughter. Earlier this month he learnt that Russian assassins had been targeting him.

    “I was surprised to discover that my whole family and I have all been banned by British police from attending this weekend’s Bafta awards where the documentary Navalny is nominated. The reason stated: we ‘represent a public security risk’,” Grozev tweeted.

    “I understand the need to keep the public safe (although I don’t understand how my son or teenage daughter constitute risk to the public). But moments like this show the growing dangers to independent journalists around the world.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-bar-journalist-who-exposed-navalny-murder-plot-from-baftas-7q0ttkpg0

    I'd like to see more details about this.
    Have the police advised them that they can't guarantee their safety (which is bad enough) - or have they actually "banned" their attending as a "security risk" ?
    I can quite see how they might be considered a security risk despite not being guilty of something. If the police consider that an attack on them by "terrorists" may involve massive collateral damage to bystanders. I may be wrong but I vaguely remember Rushdie being told he couldn't attend things back in the initial days of the fatwa as well.
    Rushdie was under police protection. This journalist isn't, AFAIK.
    I can see a protection point of view though as there may be a state actor willing to poison the whole bafta ceremony to get revenge on a single man. My view would be they shouldn't be able to ban him but they could certainly advise the ceremony organisers and guests there is a risk if he attends
    I’m a bit baffled that a lot of people don’t seem to remember the concept that the Russians don’t really give a crap about collateral damage to innocents (Salisbury, Ukraine) and if they decide it’s worth taking him out with a poison or polonium for example it’s not just the risk to the chap and his family but also other guests and staff at the event.

    They can do all they can to protect him and his family but at a large event it’s a lot easier to evade the protection and put lots of others at unnecessary risk.

    Yes it’s disgraceful that in this country someone should be told by the police not to go somewhere because of danger but if he got nobbled and a load of celebs and waiters did as well everyone would be screaming at the police asking why they didn’t stop it.

    I’m sure there are regular situations where individuals are told by the police they cannot go somewhere in the uk because they know that either there is a threat to their safety if they go or it risks causing a threat to the general public with their presence.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    How do either of those two policies disproportionally affect the poor?

    Regarding empty homes and hospital stays: If your home is unoccupied because you live in a care home or hostel, you are in hospital on a permanent basis, or you have gone to live somewhere else to provide or receive personal care due to age, illness or disability, you are exempt from Council Tax.
    On the former: council tax is a much higher percentage of the house value for poor people.

    On the latter: thanks.
    If a poor person owns an empty house I would be very surprised and sure its a small to non existent percent
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
    I'll revise my advice. If you think I'm a Lib Dem, you need to get yourself a brain, never mind a dictionary.
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    But your beloved FPTP delivers Labour a majority in the Sengland parliament, HY.
    Because politics would be exactly the same in those circumstances?
    I was only responding to HYUFD who, as usual, is talking bollocks.

    I notice he's now appropriated the LDs to his right-wing coalition.
    The entire hypothetical discussion consisted of the people on each side talking bollocks, unsurprisingly given who it was.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,584
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    How do either of those two policies disproportionally affect the poor?

    Regarding empty homes and hospital stays: If your home is unoccupied because you live in a care home or hostel, you are in hospital on a permanent basis, or you have gone to live somewhere else to provide or receive personal care due to age, illness or disability, you are exempt from Council Tax.
    On the former: council tax is a much higher percentage of the house value for poor people.

    On the latter: thanks.
    If a poor person owns an empty house I would be very surprised and sure its a small to non existent percent
    It does happen, though I was thinking of council tax when considering the impact on the poor.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    How do either of those two policies disproportionally affect the poor?

    Regarding empty homes and hospital stays: If your home is unoccupied because you live in a care home or hostel, you are in hospital on a permanent basis, or you have gone to live somewhere else to provide or receive personal care due to age, illness or disability, you are exempt from Council Tax.
    On the former: council tax is a much higher percentage of the house value for poor people.

    On the latter: thanks.
    If a poor person owns an empty house I would be very surprised and sure its a small to non existent percent
    That's the point. The poor don't own empty houses. Unless they are ill and in a hospital or long term care (or prison maybe, when their empty house would also be exempt from CT).
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081
    edited February 2023
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    You genuinely believe there are no differences in national character between, say, the Japanese, the Aboriginal Australians of northern Queensland, the Icelandics, the San Bushmen of Botswana, the Inuit and the Ashkenazi Jews? None at all?

    I get why you ‘have’ to pay lip service to this bullshit, because if you admit it, you admit there are differences between human races. But your discomfort does not stop your supposed belief from being juvenile bullshit
    Size, culture, politics, landscape, architecture, weather, ethnic and religious mix of population, prosperity, these type things can and do differ between countries (and in most cases can change over time within countries to varying degrees), but what there isn't is any such thing as a 'national character'.

    Human characteristics such as brave v cowardly, chatty v introvert, diligent v lazy, aggressive v placid, cruel v kind, dour v fun loving, etc etc cannot meaningfully be applied to nations. It's ok as a bit of fun (although depending, since sometimes there are darker motives) or as lubricant for glibly sophisticated banter, but no more than that.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    But your beloved FPTP delivers Labour a majority in the Sengland parliament, HY.
    Because politics would be exactly the same in those circumstances?
    I was only responding to HYUFD who, as usual, is talking bollocks.

    I notice he's now appropriated the LDs to his right-wing coalition.
    The entire hypothetical discussion consisted of the people on each side talking bollocks, unsurprisingly given who it was.
    What drew you to join the discussion then? Oh... ;-)
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
    I'll revise my advice. If you think I'm a Lib Dem, you need to get yourself a brain, never mind a dictionary.
    It doesn't matter if you are or aren't a lib dem, the fact remains until the ld's actually win seats in an actual election they are the opposition to absolutely no one, they are merely a flea biting an elephants scrotum, full of sound and fury signifying nothing
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,386
    edited February 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    It sounds a bit PR Stunt / Populist.

    1 - £1 selling off is more Thatcherite than Thatcher's 50% or 60% discount on Council houses.
    2 - It will be marginal as we have already spent 20 years cracking down on empty homes.
    3 - How do they stop investors striking formal or informal back to back deals? SNP had problems with that, with council houses being sold off to English investors.
    4 - Would they generally not be better pulling them into the social sector as rentals for the people on the waiting list?
    5 - What about the significant % of empty homes that are owned by Councils / HAs?

    It will, however, galvanise the owners of those homes into action.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    Being serious for a moment, those LD numbers are quite high in the south (14%). Is that a recent development or have they been at that level for some time?
  • Options
    RunDeepRunDeep Posts: 77
    edited February 2023
    The articles on Jes Staley, Epstein and what the Barclays Board knew and said in the Times today and yesterday are worth reading.

    There is a very obvious inconsistency in the statements being made which screams out at you.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    But your beloved FPTP delivers Labour a majority in the Sengland parliament, HY.
    Because politics would be exactly the same in those circumstances?
    I was only responding to HYUFD who, as usual, is talking bollocks.

    I notice he's now appropriated the LDs to his right-wing coalition.
    They were from 2010 to 2015
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    edited February 2023
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    It sounds a bit PR Stunt / Populist.

    1 - £1 selling off is more Thatcherite than Thatcher's 50% or 60% discount on Council houses.
    2 - It will be marginal as we have already spent 20 years cracking down on empty homes.
    3 - How do they stop investors striking formal or informal back to back deals? SNP had problems with that, with council houses being sold off to English investors.
    4 - Would they generally not be better pulling them into the social sector as rentals for the people on the waiting list?
    5 - What about the significant % of empty homes that are owned by Councils / HAs?

    It will, however, galvanise the owners of those homes into action.
    1 - These are not in the main council houses AIUI. Edit: I see what you mean. Maybe GeoffW can get his Thatcherite wish by voting SLab ;-)
    2 - 27,000 empty houses is the number quoted.
    3 - Clauses in the contract?
    4 - Yes
    5 - Really? Are there any? Here in Dorset HA homes are like hen's teeth - massive waiting list, no empty homes AFAIK.
  • Options

    Nice one, I’ve got back into the 5km runs myself. Under 25 mins on a good day, downhill with a following wind. Not bad I don’t think, I’ll be 45 next week. The gut is slowly going. Which is nice. Hope you have a good one!

    My feeling is there are a lot of people up here feeling the pinch financially. The Johnsonian Get Brexit Done invasion of the Red Wall was a one trick pony. People can see the empty shelves, are seeing the price rises, the strikes, the increasingly pervasive feeling that the country is spiralling downhill. Sure, some folk have got pay-rises - a mate of mine has become a HGV driver and his wage has gone up £30k - but most people are poorer, andworried. Pubs are empty, shops are shutting, we’re fucked.

    Which means, I think, that the Tories are fucked up here next time. Starmer doesn’t arouse blazing passion, but he doesn’t repel people like Corbyn did. It was squeaky bum time for my MP, Yvette Cooper, in 2019, but she’ll be safe now. The Red Wall will go back to Labour.

    My friend 25 minutes for 5K is fantastic, certainly puts you well above average! I'm trying to break the sub 20 goal eventually, at the moment only running a few minutes whilst I slowly recover from my shin splints.

    Yvette will have a big majority IMHO, she's impressive.

    I feel similar anger from the Tories in London (of course) but in the posh South East there is a strong feeling that they need to go. People are not frightened by a Starmer victory and actually many people see him as too boring to do anything dangerous. A big asset IMHO.

    I do not believe Ed M nor Brown aroused passion either, they both still held those seats comfortably. And indeed even in 2005 Blair did.
    Man, shin splints are a swine. Take it steady, you’ll get there.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 6,977
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    All fair questions which is why people talk about it but don’t actually do it!

  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    I'm from the North and my first thought was to agree - but what about the Brexit division whereby Scotland and London are on one side and the North on the other?
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 6,977

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    How do either of those two policies disproportionally affect the poor?

    Regarding empty homes and hospital stays: If your home is unoccupied because you live in a care home or hostel, you are in hospital on a permanent basis, or you have gone to live somewhere else to provide or receive personal care due to age, illness or disability, you are exempt from Council Tax.
    I read his care homes / hospital / holiday home point as relating to the £1 forced sale
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
    I'll revise my advice. If you think I'm a Lib Dem, you need to get yourself a brain, never mind a dictionary.
    It doesn't matter if you are or aren't a lib dem, the fact remains until the ld's actually win seats in an actual election they are the opposition to absolutely no one, they are merely a flea biting an elephants scrotum, full of sound and fury signifying nothing
    Do you not have even the slightest glimmering of what was being discussed?
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
    I'll revise my advice. If you think I'm a Lib Dem, you need to get yourself a brain, never mind a dictionary.
    It doesn't matter if you are or aren't a lib dem, the fact remains until the ld's actually win seats in an actual election they are the opposition to absolutely no one, they are merely a flea biting an elephants scrotum, full of sound and fury signifying nothing
    Do you not have even the slightest glimmering of what was being discussed?
    Yes but claiming the lib dems is the principal opposition is risible, no one likes them which is why they never get voted in for large numbers....lack of mp's = irrelevance just as refuk, greens etc are irrelevant. They are powerless to affect anything so any of your crap about being the opposition is wrong
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    How do either of those two policies disproportionally affect the poor?

    Regarding empty homes and hospital stays: If your home is unoccupied because you live in a care home or hostel, you are in hospital on a permanent basis, or you have gone to live somewhere else to provide or receive personal care due to age, illness or disability, you are exempt from Council Tax.
    I read his care homes / hospital / holiday home point as relating to the £1 forced sale
    Ah I see. I am sure if any £1 sale policy were implemented the same empty homes exemptions for CT would have to be applied.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,584
    edited February 2023

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    It sounds a bit PR Stunt / Populist.

    1 - £1 selling off is more Thatcherite than Thatcher's 50% or 60% discount on Council houses.
    2 - It will be marginal as we have already spent 20 years cracking down on empty homes.
    3 - How do they stop investors striking formal or informal back to back deals? SNP had problems with that, with council houses being sold off to English investors.
    4 - Would they generally not be better pulling them into the social sector as rentals for the people on the waiting list?
    5 - What about the significant % of empty homes that are owned by Councils / HAs?

    It will, however, galvanise the owners of those homes into action.
    1 - These are not in the main council houses AIUI. Edit: I see what you mean. Maybe GeoffW can get his Thatcherite wish by voting SLab ;-)
    2 - 27,000 empty houses is the number quoted.
    3 - Clauses in the contract?
    4 - Yes
    5 - Really? Are there any? Here in Dorset HA homes are like hen's teeth - massive waiting list, no empty homes AFAIK.
    That 27K is almost exactly 1% of all dwellings in Scotland, and about a third of all empty homes.

    I wonder if they got that 27K by rounding down from the stat on page 13

    https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/statistics-and-data/statistics/statistics-by-theme/households/household-estimates/2021

    But this refers to the covid era with delays in processing legalities and so on. On the next page they say "(The spike in the percentage of long-term empty properties in
    2020 may reflect the impact of Covid lockdown restrictions, for example with fewer
    people moving house in that period.)"
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited February 2023
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    I'm from the North and my first thought was to agree - but what about the Brexit division whereby Scotland and London are on one side and the North on the other?
    I personally think the division is between the English big cities/university ones and the red wall/ middle England.

    London, Brighton, Bristol, Oxford, Manchester, Newcastle, Liverpool all have more in common with Scotland , for different reasons, than places like the midlands, the rural south or rural Lancashire, I think. Hence all oppose Brexit/vote Left.
  • Options

    Entirely off-topic but I think the problem with me being a YouTuber is that on filming / editing days I am spending too much time looking at myself and listening to my voice. Having monetised I'm now shooting in 4k so more detail to show my increasing grey hairs and already wonky teeth.

    How do politicians cope when they are either on TV or taking pictures of themselves pointing at potholes?

    What’s your channel about? Will you share the name or do you wish to retain your anonymity?

    I watch a lot of YouTube, it’s great when you find a really good channel.
    https://www.youtube.com/@justgetatesla

    Basically I am having fun with my Tesla. Its not total Elon fanboi stuff, have talked about stuff thats good and bad with the car.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,111

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    I'm from the North and my first thought was to agree - but what about the Brexit division whereby Scotland and London are on one side and the North on the other?
    I personally think the division is between the English big cities and the red wall/ middle England.

    London, Bristol, Oxford, Manchester, Newcastle, Liverpool have more in common with Scotland , for different reasons, than places like the midlands, the rural south or rural yorkshire, i think.
    University cities/college towns all. Canterbury, with two universities, politically now has very little in common with the rest of Kent, even though Canterbury is not that big compared with the Medway Towns, Ashford, Maidstone etc. The only reason the LA in Canterbury is blue is the inclusion of Herne Bay, which culturally (and Westminster constituency wise) is in Thanet.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
    I'll revise my advice. If you think I'm a Lib Dem, you need to get yourself a brain, never mind a dictionary.
    It doesn't matter if you are or aren't a lib dem, the fact remains until the ld's actually win seats in an actual election they are the opposition to absolutely no one, they are merely a flea biting an elephants scrotum, full of sound and fury signifying nothing
    Do you not have even the slightest glimmering of what was being discussed?
    Yes but claiming the lib dems is the principal opposition is risible, no one likes them which is why they never get voted in for large numbers....lack of mp's = irrelevance just as refuk, greens etc are irrelevant. They are powerless to affect anything so any of your crap about being the opposition is wrong
    I'm not sure what your objection to the LDs as principal opposition to the Tories in much of the South specifically is. They have not regained second place in some of those places but they have in many of them and in local authority terms they are the main second choice in many of those areas.

    All the stuff about not being voted for in large numbers or getting many MPs may be true, but doesn't negate the point that they are the principal opposition for much of the rural south. It can sometimes be a distant opposition, but they are still the principal opposition such as it exists there.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    I'm from the North and my first thought was to agree - but what about the Brexit division whereby Scotland and London are on one side and the North on the other?
    That's true. There's never been as much antipathy towards the EU in Scotland, that is maybe the main area where political culture differs. I suppose if Scots want to blame someone they feel they didn't vote for that is distant and yet somehow the cause of all their problems (even when they aren't) they can look to London, not Brussels. You'd have thought that might be true in the North of England too, but it doesn't seem to be the case for whatever reason — I suppose a shared sense of Englishness?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081
    edited February 2023
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    You genuinely believe there are no differences in national character between, say, the Japanese, the Aboriginal Australians of northern Queensland, the Icelandics, the San Bushmen of Botswana, the Inuit and the Ashkenazi Jews? None at all?

    I get why you ‘have’ to pay lip service to this bullshit, because if you admit it, you admit there are differences between human races. But your discomfort does not stop your supposed belief from being juvenile bullshit
    Perhaps kinabalu feels uncomfortable with the implication that, say, Japanese people are simply born more polite than French people, and that a Japanese baby adopted by a Parisien couple would grow up polite despite its environment?
    In which case, perhaps we could call 'national character' some term like 'preferred behavioural norms for the culture'?
    It would be less snappy and might be less clear what you meant though.
    I think that's a terrific phrase - and actually makes it clearer and more precise what we mean. It would weed out the nonsense since it makes sense only for instances where it really is the case - which are very few relative to the instances where it isn't.

    So, yes, let's go with it. The acronym if it's too much of a mouthful. National Character is out, PBNFTC is in - but for very limited exact usage.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Evening all :)

    The one thing worse than using current polling data to make an argument is to use old polling data to make the same argument.

    Seriously - YouGov data from more than two weeks go? Entirely and completely irrelevant.

    The Omnisis and Techne poll numbers are well within what seems to be the new range - Labour in the high 40s, the Conservatives in the mid to high 20s and the LDs flirting with 10%.

    Looking at the Omnisis data tables in a bit more detail, the 209 Conservative GE vote splits 54% Conservative, 19% Labour, 13% Don't Know, 8% Reform.

    The 65+ age group still favours the Conservatives by 44 to 31 but that's a 17% swing from 2019.

    The England VI is Labour 49%, Conservative 26.5% and LD 11%. so that's a notch under an 18% swing from Conservative to Labour. That would leave the Conservatives reduced to a rump of around 120 seats.

    Omnisis also asked Reform supporters how they would vote if there were no Reform candidate in their constituency - on an admittedly very small sample, 28% said Labour to 15% Conservative. Interestingly, Reform supporters in London and Scotland were more likely to vote Labour than their counterparts in the rest of England but it completely debunks the notion put about by one or two on this site Reform supporters would 100% vote Conservative.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,053
    Another improving poll for labour in Scotland.

    Could they close even further ?


    https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1626658057915715584?s=61&t=eBEoZeLsu487zIoTe7Bfsw
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    call w
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
    I'll revise my advice. If you think I'm a Lib Dem, you need to get yourself a brain, never mind a dictionary.
    It doesn't matter if you are or aren't a lib dem, the fact remains until the ld's actually win seats in an actual election they are the opposition to absolutely no one, they are merely a flea biting an elephants scrotum, full of sound and fury signifying nothing
    Do you not have even the slightest glimmering of what was being discussed?
    Yes but claiming the lib dems is the principal opposition is risible, no one likes them which is why they never get voted in for large numbers....lack of mp's = irrelevance just as refuk, greens etc are irrelevant. They are powerless to affect anything so any of your crap about being the opposition is wrong
    I'm not sure what your objection to the LDs as principal opposition to the Tories in much of the South specifically is. They have not regained second place in some of those places but they have in many of them and in local authority terms they are the main second choice in many of those areas.

    All the stuff about not being voted for in large numbers or getting many MPs may be true, but doesn't negate the point that they are the principal opposition for much of the rural south. It can sometimes be a distant opposition, but they are still the principal opposition such as it exists there.
    I am referring to opposition as in parliament, all parties like ld , refuk, greens do mainly is take enough votes of either labour or tories to let the other through.

    Being second in votes and not getting an mp does not make you the opposition it makes you a loser
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,386
    edited February 2023

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    It sounds a bit PR Stunt / Populist.

    1 - £1 selling off is more Thatcherite than Thatcher's 50% or 60% discount on Council houses.
    2 - It will be marginal as we have already spent 20 years cracking down on empty homes.
    3 - How do they stop investors striking formal or informal back to back deals? SNP had problems with that, with council houses being sold off to English investors.
    4 - Would they generally not be better pulling them into the social sector as rentals for the people on the waiting list?
    5 - What about the significant % of empty homes that are owned by Councils / HAs?

    It will, however, galvanise the owners of those homes into action.
    1 - These are not in the main council houses AIUI.
    2 - 27,000 empty houses is the number quoted.
    3 - Clauses in the contract?
    4 - Yes
    5 - Really? Are there any? Here in Dorset HA homes are like hen's teeth - massive waiting list, no empty homes AFAIK.
    27,000 is 1% of the 2.7 million dwellings in Scotland, so that is smallish but I agree significant at the margin. I was expecting a lower number than that. England is about 0.8% on the published numbers.

    The named Scottish Empty Homes website is run by Shelter, and does not contain much detailed data. Generally Shelter data is opaque and ill-defined. From past experience I would want a definition and a second source.

    A long-term empty is I think 12 months or more.

    In England in 2022 there were, with numbers based on "Empty" discounts on Council Tax (which may cause certain category errors - eg no point reporting empty if you still pay full Council Tax on it and get more hassle):

    - 248k long-term empties;
    - 33k were owned by Local Authorities "vacant";
    - 32k owned by Housing Associations under "general needs vacant";
    - 14k owned by Housing Associations under "general needs vacant not available" - things like supported units for elderly. This is I think a sub-category of the larger HA number;
    - Owned by eg Health Authorities does not seem to be collected, but is small.

    So yes social sector empties are significant, though a minority. If LA / HC in Scotland are on top of the number quoted, then that makes it quite a bit higher than the numbers published for England.

    Data is here. You want Live Table 615.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables-on-dwelling-stock-including-vacants

    Dorset report 5 LA owned LT empties, 160 general HA LT empties, and 83 "vacant not available" HA LT empties. Same live data table. Yes, it looks tight in Dorset.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,880
    Taz said:

    Another improving poll for labour in Scotland.

    Could they close even further ?


    https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1626658057915715584?s=61&t=eBEoZeLsu487zIoTe7Bfsw

    Yougov outlier?
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,573
    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    LDs in the South tend to be more of the Orange Book than Social Democrat variety
    I'm not saying you are wrong @hyufd and it is certainly true for me, but where do you get that from? I obviously know a lot of LDs in the South and I couldn't make that statement nor could I disagree with it.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    A swing from SNP to Labour would allow more Tories to save their seats. Bad news.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,573
    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
    I'll revise my advice. If you think I'm a Lib Dem, you need to get yourself a brain, never mind a dictionary.
    It doesn't matter if you are or aren't a lib dem, the fact remains until the ld's actually win seats in an actual election they are the opposition to absolutely no one, they are merely a flea biting an elephants scrotum, full of sound and fury signifying nothing
    The statement was 'You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".'

    If they aren't the principle opposition in parts of the South eg Woking, Wokingham, Guildford, Mole Valley, Wimbledon, SW Surrey, etc, etc, etc who the hell do you think are?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,584
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    There weren’t any details in the article, but expropriation is a dangerous path to tread
    Not clear how it works at all. Also a 500% increase in council tax for empty homes. Disproprortionately affects the poor rather than the rich. And a real issue for people in hospital. Logically also applies to holiday homes as well (otherwise someone goes and stays in it 1 night a year). Interesting.
    It sounds a bit PR Stunt / Populist.

    1 - £1 selling off is more Thatcherite than Thatcher's 50% or 60% discount on Council houses.
    2 - It will be marginal as we have already spent 20 years cracking down on empty homes.
    3 - How do they stop investors striking formal or informal back to back deals? SNP had problems with that, with council houses being sold off to English investors.
    4 - Would they generally not be better pulling them into the social sector as rentals for the people on the waiting list?
    5 - What about the significant % of empty homes that are owned by Councils / HAs?

    It will, however, galvanise the owners of those homes into action.
    1 - These are not in the main council houses AIUI.
    2 - 27,000 empty houses is the number quoted.
    3 - Clauses in the contract?
    4 - Yes
    5 - Really? Are there any? Here in Dorset HA homes are like hen's teeth - massive waiting list, no empty homes AFAIK.
    27,000 is 1% of the 2.7 million dwellings in Scotland, so that is smallish but I agree significant at the margin. I was expecting a lower number than that. England is about 0.8% on the published numbers.

    The named Scottish Empty Homes website is run by Shelter, and does not contain much detailed data. Generally Shelter data is opaque and ill-defined. From past experience I would want a definition and a second source.

    A long-term empty is I think 12 months or more.

    In England in 2022 there were, with numbers based on "Empty" discounts on Council Tax (which may cause certain category errors - eg no point reporting empty if you still pay full Council Tax on it and get more hassle):

    - 248k long-term empties;
    - 33k were owned by Local Authorities "vacant";
    - 32k owned by Housing Associations under "general needs vacant";
    - 14k owned by Housing Associations under "general needs vacant not available" - things like supported units for elderly. This is I think a sub-category of the larger HA number;
    - Owned by eg Health Authorities does not seem to be collected, but is small.

    So yes social sector empties are significant, though a minority. If LA / HC in Scotland are on top of the number quoted, then that makes it quite a bit higher than the numbers published for England.

    Data is here. You want Live Table 615.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables-on-dwelling-stock-including-vacants

    Dorset report 5 LA owned LT empties, 160 general HA LT empties, and 83 "vacant not available" HA LT empties. Same live data table. Yes, it looks tight in Dorset.
    Different years - see my post below: 2021 in Scotland, affected by covid delays in legalities.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,826
    kjh said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
    I'll revise my advice. If you think I'm a Lib Dem, you need to get yourself a brain, never mind a dictionary.
    It doesn't matter if you are or aren't a lib dem, the fact remains until the ld's actually win seats in an actual election they are the opposition to absolutely no one, they are merely a flea biting an elephants scrotum, full of sound and fury signifying nothing
    The statement was 'You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".'

    If they aren't the principle opposition in parts of the South eg Woking, Wokingham, Guildford, Mole Valley, Wimbledon, SW Surrey, etc, etc, etc who the hell do you think are?
    No one because the LD's won't get elected, opposition implies they have a chance. I suspect at best after the next election the LD's will at best goto double their mp numbers.

    They are only opposition if they have a chance and fortunately there are enough anyone but ld voters, in which I include myself, to prevent an ld win. I would vote for corbyn to keep an lib dem out
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    You genuinely believe there are no differences in national character between, say, the Japanese, the Aboriginal Australians of northern Queensland, the Icelandics, the San Bushmen of Botswana, the Inuit and the Ashkenazi Jews? None at all?

    I get why you ‘have’ to pay lip service to this bullshit, because if you admit it, you admit there are differences between human races. But your discomfort does not stop your supposed belief from being juvenile bullshit
    Size, culture, politics, landscape, architecture, weather, ethnic and religious mix of population, prosperity, these type things can and do differ between countries (and in most cases can change over time within countries to varying degrees), but what there isn't is any such thing as a 'national character'.

    Human characteristics such as brave v cowardly, chatty v introvert, diligent v lazy, aggressive v placid, cruel v kind, dour v fun loving, etc etc cannot meaningfully be applied to nations. It's ok as a bit of fun (although depending, since sometimes there are darker motives) or as lubricant for glibly sophisticated banter, but no more than that.

    You are already quite a dull person. A retired accountant. What is impressive, in a dull way, is that you somehow manage to be even duller than that

    You should amp up the bisexual “I like polo-players in tight jodhpurs” stuff. It’s your only saving grace
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    I'm from the North and my first thought was to agree - but what about the Brexit division whereby Scotland and London are on one side and the North on the other?
    I personally think the division is between the English big cities/university ones and the red wall/ middle England.

    London, Brighton, Bristol, Oxford, Manchester, Newcastle, Liverpool all have more in common with Scotland , for different reasons, than places like the midlands, the rural south or rural Lancashire, I think. Hence all oppose Brexit/vote Left.
    That certainly is the Brexit division, yes. And yet Liverpool v Oxford really doesn't feel like a political identity derby, if you know what I mean.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,573
    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    More to the point, what does the South East of England get out of being part of England, apart from higher taxes?

    An independent South East, or at least one with its own Parliament within the UK, could be more like Bavaria or Switzerland
    Right now it would be majority Labour. I somehow don't think you'll be happy with that
    It wouldn't. The Tories and LDs and RefUK combined are still well ahead of Labour in the South East.

    Even in 1997 the home counties mostly stayed Tory in the end
    Erh no they aren't.
    They are.

    Labour is on 40% in the latest Yougov in the South, the Tories and LDs and RefUK are on 51% combined in the South

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/523wfnrggo/TheTimes_VI_230201_W.pdf
    You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".

    You would do better to count the "Don't Knows" in the Tory column, and fantasise that they are going to turn out and save the day. Or perhaps that the aliens will invade and the election will be called off.
    The LD's aren't the opposition to anyone till they get elected ...
    I suggest you invest in a dictionary.
    I suggest you get more than 10 mp's before calling yourself the principal opposition to anyone, jo swinson style hubris at its best.
    I'll revise my advice. If you think I'm a Lib Dem, you need to get yourself a brain, never mind a dictionary.
    It doesn't matter if you are or aren't a lib dem, the fact remains until the ld's actually win seats in an actual election they are the opposition to absolutely no one, they are merely a flea biting an elephants scrotum, full of sound and fury signifying nothing
    The statement was 'You do realise that the LDs are (even now) the principal opposition to the Tories in parts of "the South".'

    If they aren't the principle opposition in parts of the South eg Woking, Wokingham, Guildford, Mole Valley, Wimbledon, SW Surrey, etc, etc, etc who the hell do you think are?
    No one because the LD's won't get elected, opposition implies they have a chance. I suspect at best after the next election the LD's will at best goto double their mp numbers.

    They are only opposition if they have a chance and fortunately there are enough anyone but ld voters, in which I include myself, to prevent an ld win. I would vote for corbyn to keep an lib dem out
    So in the 6 I mentioned do you believe the Tories will hold on to all of those and the LDs not win any of them? Do you want to have a bet on it?

    And why this hatred of LDs? We are generally an inoffensive bunch.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    I'm from the North and my first thought was to agree - but what about the Brexit division whereby Scotland and London are on one side and the North on the other?
    I personally think the division is between the English big cities/university ones and the red wall/ middle England.

    London, Brighton, Bristol, Oxford, Manchester, Newcastle, Liverpool all have more in common with Scotland , for different reasons, than places like the midlands, the rural south or rural Lancashire, I think. Hence all oppose Brexit/vote Left.
    That certainly is the Brexit division, yes. And yet Liverpool v Oxford really doesn't feel like a political identity derby, if you know what I mean.
    I'd say Liverpool is a bit of an outlier. The locals (as opposed to students etc) support Labour like they support their football teams, which is what the Red Wall was like until Brexit.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,053

    A swing from SNP to Labour would allow more Tories to save their seats. Bad news.

    Not for the unionists. I expect labour wouldn’t be too upset at a diminished SNP in Scotland. Even if it meant a few Tories held their seats especially given the expected drubbing south of the border for the Blue team.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,053
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    I'm from the North and my first thought was to agree - but what about the Brexit division whereby Scotland and London are on one side and the North on the other?
    I personally think the division is between the English big cities/university ones and the red wall/ middle England.

    London, Brighton, Bristol, Oxford, Manchester, Newcastle, Liverpool all have more in common with Scotland , for different reasons, than places like the midlands, the rural south or rural Lancashire, I think. Hence all oppose Brexit/vote Left.
    That certainly is the Brexit division, yes. And yet Liverpool v Oxford really doesn't feel like a political identity derby, if you know what I mean.
    I'd say Liverpool is a bit of an outlier. The locals (as opposed to students etc) support Labour like they support their football teams, which is what the Red Wall was like until Brexit.
    That’s because the red wall realised the labour movement held them in contempt and took them for granted. I’d expect labour to regain most of the red a wall next time but the turnout will be low in these seats.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    The differences in political culture between Scotland and England are real but not huge, in my opinion, and I think polling on political attitudes (as opposed to party id) back that up. I would say that political culture in Scotland is similar to that in the North of England. In fact the North and South of England are at least as different as England and Scotland in my experience. Semi-serious question: what does the North of England get out of being part of England? Apart ftom the cash, I mean.
    I'm from the North and my first thought was to agree - but what about the Brexit division whereby Scotland and London are on one side and the North on the other?
    That's true. There's never been as much antipathy towards the EU in Scotland, that is maybe the main area where political culture differs. I suppose if Scots want to blame someone they feel they didn't vote for that is distant and yet somehow the cause of all their problems (even when they aren't) they can look to London, not Brussels. You'd have thought that might be true in the North of England too, but it doesn't seem to be the case for whatever reason — I suppose a shared sense of Englishness?
    I'd say there isn't as strong a sense in (say) South Yorkshire that Westminster is a foreign power as there is in Scotland. And, yes, I suppose that's among other things about a shared sense of Englishness. "They're wankers but they're our wankers".
  • Options
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    You genuinely believe there are no differences in national character between, say, the Japanese, the Aboriginal Australians of northern Queensland, the Icelandics, the San Bushmen of Botswana, the Inuit and the Ashkenazi Jews? None at all?

    I get why you ‘have’ to pay lip service to this bullshit, because if you admit it, you admit there are differences between human races. But your discomfort does not stop your supposed belief from being juvenile bullshit
    He doesn't want to believe it exists because it offends against his world view.

    This is pure cognitive dissonance.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,573
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Kate Forbes appears to have traditional right-of-centre values. I would not be averse to voting SNP under her leadership. A Thatcherite independent Scotland when the r-UK is zombified by Starmer's claque would be fine by me.

    Haha. You fear Labour will ruin all the stunning successes of the past 13 years. It's a view, I suppose.
    Actually I'd perhaps not go so far as voting for independence, but a devolved Thatcherite Scotland would be a treat.
    Isn't this unlikely given one of the main ways Scotland differs from England - supplying much of the logic for separation - is being more attuned to a collective as opposed to an individualistic view of society?
    This being political culture, I hasten to stress, not 'national character' - which can't be different because it doesn't exist.
    You genuinely believe there are no differences in national character between, say, the Japanese, the Aboriginal Australians of northern Queensland, the Icelandics, the San Bushmen of Botswana, the Inuit and the Ashkenazi Jews? None at all?

    I get why you ‘have’ to pay lip service to this bullshit, because if you admit it, you admit there are differences between human races. But your discomfort does not stop your supposed belief from being juvenile bullshit
    Size, culture, politics, landscape, architecture, weather, ethnic and religious mix of population, prosperity, these type things can and do differ between countries (and in most cases can change over time within countries to varying degrees), but what there isn't is any such thing as a 'national character'.

    Human characteristics such as brave v cowardly, chatty v introvert, diligent v lazy, aggressive v placid, cruel v kind, dour v fun loving, etc etc cannot meaningfully be applied to nations. It's ok as a bit of fun (although depending, since sometimes there are darker motives) or as lubricant for glibly sophisticated banter, but no more than that.

    You are already quite a dull person. A retired accountant. What is impressive, in a dull way, is that you somehow manage to be even duller than that

    You should amp up the bisexual “I like polo-players in tight jodhpurs” stuff. It’s your only saving grace
    Here we go again. How about trying to engage on the content with @kinabalu and not the personal insults because each time you do this it comes over as you losing the argument with him. You seem to lose every time you debate with him which isn't a good look.
This discussion has been closed.