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What we need are Tory by-election defences – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,934

    Pretty depressing discussion on the death penalty, reminiscent of a school debating society.
    Fortunately, there's no chance of it being brought back during my lifetime, at least.
    But the fact that it's even deemed worthy of debate adds fuel to the regressive fire we've been playing with for some years now.

    Pretty soon, I expect Lee Anderson to pop up and say "my teachers used to beat me to within an inch of my life, and it never did me any harm".

    And HYUFD will write "actually, YouGov found that 58% of voters want the cane brought back for when kids are really, really naughty".

    A 2011 Yougov indeed found 53% of voters wanted to restore smacking and the cane
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    You’ve had bad luck.
    I accept there is a purist tendency among some.
    The secret as a manager is to identify them and weed them out before they have a chance to fuck the project.

    Same goes for shit developers, although possibly easier to deal with as they tend to get ratted out by peers (or the Jira board).
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    HYUFD said:

    Pretty depressing discussion on the death penalty, reminiscent of a school debating society.
    Fortunately, there's no chance of it being brought back during my lifetime, at least.
    But the fact that it's even deemed worthy of debate adds fuel to the regressive fire we've been playing with for some years now.

    Pretty soon, I expect Lee Anderson to pop up and say "my teachers used to beat me to within an inch of my life, and it never did me any harm".

    And HYUFD will write "actually, YouGov found that 58% of voters want the cane brought back for when kids are really, really naughty".

    A 2011 Yougov indeed found 53% of voters wanted to restore smacking and the cane
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    As a dog returneth to his vomit.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    I don't want the death penalty back, though I am open to persuasion on high treason, which still carried the death penalty when I was growing up.

    Why privilege sausage fingers?
    I suppose because I would like those tempted to commit it to factor the judge donning a black hanky into their calculus. I am not sure that practically it would work at the present time.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    The problem is that the Tory Party has lost any sense of right and wrong.

    Obviously the death penalty is wrong - giving a referendum on it would be despicable. But it's not about that anymore, they don't take a stand on anything. If they can get a few votes in the short term they will do it.

    This lot need to be junked and junked in a big way. For the first time I am convinced we need a Labour landslide.

    For the first time I am convinced we are getting one.
    Totally irrational.

    You are 'convinced' we are getting one because someone has challenged the fact that we might not be getting one.

    This is @Gardenwalker lashing out because his neocortex is fighting with his brain stem.
    Your team may well win, come the election. At the moment the evidence is not pointing to that result.

    However there are two years to go, there might be any number of black swan events and you have Lee Anderson and a capital punishment referendum to temp the voters.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    If you are a lesbian couple who occasionally play loud music and openly smoke dope, where are you more likely to be reported to the Police?
    A Red Wall town?
    Or Surrey suburbia?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    The problem is that every other arsehole who can't, but wants to be in IT, calls him/her/themselves a "UX"er.

    Bit like every other arsehole who can't, in the building trade, picks up a brush and declares him/her/themselves a painter.
  • stodge said:

    If Rishi believes in the death penalty - I am staggered that his so-called religion would allow him to but what do I know? - then he should come out and say so.

    These are the last throws of a dying Government.

    But these are not empty words, we are talking about people here. People that will have their lives taken if it meant a few points in the polls.

    This country needs a reset and fast. We're heading one way right now and it is not the compassionate country that the UK is or should be.

    The Tories must get out of Government.

    To be fair, I think Sunak has moved to distance himself from Anderson. There's no majority in the Commons for restoration - the last attempts were soundly defeated - I believe in the Thatcher era when the Conservative majority was larger than it is now.

    MPs aren't mandated to follow every twist and turn in public opinion.
    Thatcher held regular votes on capital punishment, because she believed that was the best way to keep it abolished.
    Thatcher was in favour of capital punishment.
    Yep. For someone who generally looks upon Thatcher with some admiration, this is a real black mark in her ledger.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    You’ve had bad luck.
    I accept there is a purist tendency among some.
    The secret as a manager is to identify them and weed them out before they have a chance to fuck the project.

    Same goes for shit developers, although possibly easier to deal with as they tend to get ratted out by peers (or the Jira board).
    Last example was a ux designer who wanted radio buttons for how to pay. Two options which one of was paypal but also wanted a paypal button on screen. We went back to the product people and said either the radio buttons are correct or get rid of the paypal button you dont need both, select a radio button and you get the correct pay button showing. Not you can select to pay another way but then the only button that shows is paypal
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    You’ve had bad luck.
    I accept there is a purist tendency among some.
    The secret as a manager is to identify them and weed them out before they have a chance to fuck the project.

    Same goes for shit developers, although possibly easier to deal with as they tend to get ratted out by peers (or the Jira board).
    I sack people all the time. Three in the past year. And a fourth in the pipeline.

    People in my firm seem to be surprised I have the bollocks to do it, even those more senior.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,380
    HYUFD said:

    Pretty depressing discussion on the death penalty, reminiscent of a school debating society.
    Fortunately, there's no chance of it being brought back during my lifetime, at least.
    But the fact that it's even deemed worthy of debate adds fuel to the regressive fire we've been playing with for some years now.

    Pretty soon, I expect Lee Anderson to pop up and say "my teachers used to beat me to within an inch of my life, and it never did me any harm".

    And HYUFD will write "actually, YouGov found that 58% of voters want the cane brought back for when kids are really, really naughty".

    A 2011 Yougov indeed found 53% of voters wanted to restore smacking and the cane
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    Brilliant - so quick. Have you learnt all this stuff?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    That is a very fair analysis. But personally do you believe in the death penalty for any particular circumstances? I don't.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Never even heard the term UXer before.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    dixiedean said:

    Never even heard the term UXer before.

    Think yourself lucky they are like an evil ofsted
  • HYUFD said:

    Pretty depressing discussion on the death penalty, reminiscent of a school debating society.
    Fortunately, there's no chance of it being brought back during my lifetime, at least.
    But the fact that it's even deemed worthy of debate adds fuel to the regressive fire we've been playing with for some years now.

    Pretty soon, I expect Lee Anderson to pop up and say "my teachers used to beat me to within an inch of my life, and it never did me any harm".

    And HYUFD will write "actually, YouGov found that 58% of voters want the cane brought back for when kids are really, really naughty".

    A 2011 Yougov indeed found 53% of voters wanted to restore smacking and the cane
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    In 2019, 57% of voters did NOT vote for Boris.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    If you are a lesbian couple who occasionally play loud music and openly smoke dope, where are you more likely to be reported to the Police?
    A Red Wall town?
    Or Surrey suburbia?
    From my experience of Red Wall towns, they would probably be asked where they get their Mary Jane, if it's good stuff.

    Surrey suburbanites would be a bit sniffy about weed smokers - cocaine users really look down on them for some reason.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Never even heard the term UXer before.

    Think yourself lucky they are like an evil ofsted
    So. Like Ofsted then?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    You’ve had bad luck.
    I accept there is a purist tendency among some.
    The secret as a manager is to identify them and weed them out before they have a chance to fuck the project.

    Same goes for shit developers, although possibly easier to deal with as they tend to get ratted out by peers (or the Jira board).
    I sack people all the time. Three in the past year. And a fourth in the pipeline.

    People in my firm seem to be surprised I have the bollocks to do it, even those more senior.
    Sacking is a ball-ache, that’s why.
    And doesn’t really win you political favours.

    I have tended to be a hatchet man, but only because I firmly believe that the right team in the right roles and you are 90% done.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,154

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    You’ve had bad luck.
    I accept there is a purist tendency among some.
    The secret as a manager is to identify them and weed them out before they have a chance to fuck the project.

    Same goes for shit developers, although possibly easier to deal with as they tend to get ratted out by peers (or the Jira board).
    I sack people all the time. Three in the past year. And a fourth in the pipeline.

    People in my firm seem to be surprised I have the bollocks to do it, even those more senior.
    It takes real balls to fire your boss.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty depressing discussion on the death penalty, reminiscent of a school debating society.
    Fortunately, there's no chance of it being brought back during my lifetime, at least.
    But the fact that it's even deemed worthy of debate adds fuel to the regressive fire we've been playing with for some years now.

    Pretty soon, I expect Lee Anderson to pop up and say "my teachers used to beat me to within an inch of my life, and it never did me any harm".

    And HYUFD will write "actually, YouGov found that 58% of voters want the cane brought back for when kids are really, really naughty".

    A 2011 Yougov indeed found 53% of voters wanted to restore smacking and the cane
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    Brilliant - so quick. Have you learnt all this stuff?
    Large language model.
    Sadly, often simply makes things up.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Never even heard the term UXer before.

    Think yourself lucky they are like an evil ofsted
    So. Like Ofsted then?
    No ofsted mean well, uxdesigners think pretty trumps functional
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Never even heard the term UXer before.

    Think yourself lucky they are like an evil ofsted
    You seem to be suffering from trauma - did someone show you some really nasty pictures in balsamiq when you were young and sensitive?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited February 2023
    Deleted. Repeat.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    You’ve had bad luck.
    I accept there is a purist tendency among some.
    The secret as a manager is to identify them and weed them out before they have a chance to fuck the project.

    Same goes for shit developers, although possibly easier to deal with as they tend to get ratted out by peers (or the Jira board).
    I sack people all the time. Three in the past year. And a fourth in the pipeline.

    People in my firm seem to be surprised I have the bollocks to do it, even those more senior.
    Sacking is a ball-ache, that’s why.
    And doesn’t really win you political favours.

    I have tended to be a hatchet man, but only because I firmly believe that the right team in the right roles and you are 90% done.
    I don't take any pleasure from it, and most are good, but these are the bottom 15% that cause massive headaches for everyone else and no-one deals with.

    I've worked weekends to do the work they've failed to do, given clear feedback, and they haven't improved.

    Fuck that. Me and my family are more important.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,154

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Lib Dems are also staring at a REALLY bad general election, when they would normally hope to benefit from Tory travails

    I do not understand their inertia. The tactical move for them is obvious. Come out, loud and proud, as the party of Rejoin the EU immediately (after another referendum). There are enough hardcore Remoaners in southern England and the like to win them quite a few seats, indeed Remoaners tempted by Starmer might vote tactically for the LDs in the hope that they can pressure him towards Rejoin in a hung parliament

    What the F are they playing at? This would also bring them much needed attention

    It is amazing to me that no UK party is going out there swinging for the Rejoin vote, when the polls are clearly showing Brexit remorse

    That's an interesting idea but we need to get more precise with the language on this now. After nearly 7 years you can't be both a Remoaner and a Rejoiner. A Remoaner is passive, pissed off, backwards looking; a Rejoiner is head up, future facing, active.

    I avoid analogies as a rule, they're overdone in punditry and can easily slide into a silliness that helps no-one (eg Brexit is like changing a nappy), but a good way to illustrate what I mean here is to imagine your dog has shat on the carpet.

    In which case you can (i) sit there looking at it, grumbling at the mess, castigating the dog and yourself for failing to train it properly; or (ii) you can screw that for a game of soldiers and go, "right, let's get this cleared up!" and then think about getting a goldfish.

    Option (i) is Remoaning. Option (ii) is the can-do spirit of Rejoin.

    I'm a Remoaner btw. I'm still slumped in my chair gazing at the steaming pile of doo doo, chuntering how it shouldn't have happened, "why oh why oh why", unable (yet) to get up and do anything about it. But one day (and I'll let everyone know when this happens) I'll snap out of this and then I'll be a Remoaner no more. I'll be a Rejoiner.
    The thing is you and I didn't want the dog in the first place. Indeed, we raised some questions of what would happen to the cream carpets and the reasonably nice furniture. But we were overruled by our other half and their parents. This sort of thing happens, and is one of the spices of life. But they're not cleaning the mess up either, and sometimes hint that it's our fault for not training the dog properly.

    And the worst of it? It's getting to the point where we probably could phone up Battersea Dog's Home and ask them to take Nigel the Bulldog away. But we'd feel like utter scumbags for doing that. At least today we would...
    ‘you and I didn’t want the dog in the first place’

    =

    ‘These people never wanted to be parents in the first place”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-brexit-is-just-like-having-a-baby/

    Brexit = Baby remains the greatest analogy in the history of PB - maybe in the history of humanity. We can only hope that one day the immortal @SeanT might one day *Rejoin* pb

    The analogy falls down because having a baby isn't that difficult and is a source of joy and fulfillment to the parents from day one. I'd say that Brexit is more like having a shit, one that turns out to be an unflushable turd. All that strain, followed by a bad smell and lingering embarrassment.
    Post-natal depression is not uncommon, and can be particularly difficult to deal with because you're supposed to be happy about having a baby.

    Will the Brexit baby blues pass?
    I'd say they lifted when it became clear we'd get vaccinated before most of Europe. If we just stick at steadily choosing to do the right thing for the UK, and diverging sensibly where necessary, those types of advantages will occur more frequently. It seems to me actually very hard work to be as shit at being out of the EU as we are at the moment.
    We were vaccinated before most of the rest of Europe because we have (probably) the best pharma industry in Europe. The vaccine "thing" is the Brexit apologists only argument and it is as vacuous and nonsensical as their lying bus slogan.
    Nah that's utter rubbish. You are just trying to rewrite history to suit your own agenda. You are claiming that various EU countries just sat around refusing to authorise vaccines because they wanted to? They did it because, in spite of what the rules might have said about emergency approvals, the EU were desperate to have a united front on vaccines and acted on that basis.

    There is an excellent article from Politico.eu about this which is worth reading as it sets out just what went so wrong with the EU vaccine response.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/

    From the article

    "Countries can’t just follow the U.K.’s lead by unilaterally authorizing vaccines purchased by the EU — doses purchased by Brussels can only be released after they get the EMA’s signoff, according to the agreement. So even though Budapest tried to make a point by green-lighting the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab, it won’t get any shots before the rest of the bloc."
    Honestly Richard, did you read that article?

    "France and Spain separately began talks with Moderna, according to the Commission official. By mid-April, Paris and Berlin started negotiating together to buy vaccines, according to an Elysée official.

    EU27 health ministers signed off on a Commission plan to buy on their behalf on June 12. But the Franco-German initiative continued to press forward, having invited the Netherlands and Italy to join their buyers’ club. "


    Granted, France and Germany decided ultimately to stop their 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' and join in with the EU scheme but there was no necessity to do that, no compulsion.
    If there was no necessity ir compulsion, why did they do it? Doing so was clearly a shit idea.
    Not every EU country was part of the EU vaccine purchase plan: Hungary publicly snubbed it to purchase Sputnik instead. (And then came back later after Sputnik was a bit of a dud.)
    But that's not an argument against Richard's - he said that we could have approved and used vaccines that weren't shared with the EU scheme, and that is presumably why Hungary could use Sputnik.
    I didn't read the early part of the discussion - is the argument that one couldn't both be a member of the EU scheme and buy vaccines separately?

    Now, this is all ancient history, but didn't I drag up a story about two and a half years ago about Belgium putting in an order for some local vaccine that wasn't part of the scheme? I mean I think I did. But the details are all a bit hazy.

    I suspect the truth is that once could - contractually - order outside the vaccine scheme. But that the pressure from other countries was such that it almost never happened.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Never even heard the term UXer before.

    Think yourself lucky they are like an evil ofsted
    You seem to be suffering from trauma - did someone show you some really nasty pictures in balsamiq when you were young and sensitive?
    No just fed up for catering to arseholes who think pretty trumps function
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,139
    HYUFD said:

    Pretty depressing discussion on the death penalty, reminiscent of a school debating society.
    Fortunately, there's no chance of it being brought back during my lifetime, at least.
    But the fact that it's even deemed worthy of debate adds fuel to the regressive fire we've been playing with for some years now.

    Pretty soon, I expect Lee Anderson to pop up and say "my teachers used to beat me to within an inch of my life, and it never did me any harm".

    And HYUFD will write "actually, YouGov found that 58% of voters want the cane brought back for when kids are really, really naughty".

    A 2011 Yougov indeed found 53% of voters wanted to restore smacking and the cane
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    That's not quite 58% though.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I would never trust techies to design a consumer facing solution.

    Jesus Christ, no.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited February 2023

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    If you are a lesbian couple who occasionally play loud music and openly smoke dope, where are you more likely to be reported to the Police?
    A Red Wall town?
    Or Surrey suburbia?
    From my experience of Red Wall towns, they would probably be asked where they get their Mary Jane, if it's good stuff.

    Surrey suburbanites would be a bit sniffy about weed smokers - cocaine users really look down on them for some reason.
    Yeah. Having lived in both recently, I find working class attitudes to be conservative in theory and extremely tolerant of the unimportant private stuff in practice.
    And middle class the opposite. Petty intolerance and intrusion. Woe betide if your hedge isn't trimmed.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    I would never trust techies to design a consumer facing solution.

    Jesus Christ, no.

    Techies have been designing consumer facing solutions for years and yes some got it wrong, ux designers are new and I have yet to see one design something that helped the consumers
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    You answered your own question. Lots of people agree with Lee Anderson.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268

    I would never trust techies to design a consumer facing solution.

    Jesus Christ, no.

    And I wouldn't trust the UX "function" to control design of a consumer facing function either.

    You'd end up with something that either looked like a dog food salad, or one of those kitchen taps that costs 4 figures and requires the manual to work out how to get cold water out of.

    It's almost as if a good software is like physical engineering - where technology, design and quite a bit of artistry play off each other.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Sean_F said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    You answered your own question. Lots of people agree with Lee Anderson.
    Not the ones who might be persuaded into voting Tory.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696
    HYUFD said:

    If Rishi believes in the death penalty - I am staggered that his so-called religion would allow him to but what do I know? - then he should come out and say so.

    These are the last throws of a dying Government.

    But these are not empty words, we are talking about people here. People that will have their lives taken if it meant a few points in the polls.

    This country needs a reset and fast. We're heading one way right now and it is not the compassionate country that the UK is or should be.

    The Tories must get out of Government.

    The death penalty is rather divisive. Simplistically I see two reasons not to have it (or possibly three). Firstly some believe the state should not have to take lives, period. Secondly there are those who have less of an issue with that, but still oppose because there is too much chance of a terminal miscarriage of justice. Lastly there is the argument that it doesn’t actually act as a deterrent.

    I am not in favour of restoring the death penalty, but events such as the murders of Lee Rigby and Sarah Everard test peoples beliefs to the limit. Why should such murderers have live, when their victims do not.
    Why should serial killers be released from prison too, as this one may be about to be?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11713743/Serial-killer-Patrick-Mackay-grilled-Parole-Board-safe-freed-freed.html
    Why do you think you know better than the Parole Board? Your problem is you think you are an expert in everything.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,531
    edited February 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Lib Dems are also staring at a REALLY bad general election, when they would normally hope to benefit from Tory travails

    I do not understand their inertia. The tactical move for them is obvious. Come out, loud and proud, as the party of Rejoin the EU immediately (after another referendum). There are enough hardcore Remoaners in southern England and the like to win them quite a few seats, indeed Remoaners tempted by Starmer might vote tactically for the LDs in the hope that they can pressure him towards Rejoin in a hung parliament

    What the F are they playing at? This would also bring them much needed attention

    It is amazing to me that no UK party is going out there swinging for the Rejoin vote, when the polls are clearly showing Brexit remorse

    That's an interesting idea but we need to get more precise with the language on this now. After nearly 7 years you can't be both a Remoaner and a Rejoiner. A Remoaner is passive, pissed off, backwards looking; a Rejoiner is head up, future facing, active.

    I avoid analogies as a rule, they're overdone in punditry and can easily slide into a silliness that helps no-one (eg Brexit is like changing a nappy), but a good way to illustrate what I mean here is to imagine your dog has shat on the carpet.

    In which case you can (i) sit there looking at it, grumbling at the mess, castigating the dog and yourself for failing to train it properly; or (ii) you can screw that for a game of soldiers and go, "right, let's get this cleared up!" and then think about getting a goldfish.

    Option (i) is Remoaning. Option (ii) is the can-do spirit of Rejoin.

    I'm a Remoaner btw. I'm still slumped in my chair gazing at the steaming pile of doo doo, chuntering how it shouldn't have happened, "why oh why oh why", unable (yet) to get up and do anything about it. But one day (and I'll let everyone know when this happens) I'll snap out of this and then I'll be a Remoaner no more. I'll be a Rejoiner.
    The thing is you and I didn't want the dog in the first place. Indeed, we raised some questions of what would happen to the cream carpets and the reasonably nice furniture. But we were overruled by our other half and their parents. This sort of thing happens, and is one of the spices of life. But they're not cleaning the mess up either, and sometimes hint that it's our fault for not training the dog properly.

    And the worst of it? It's getting to the point where we probably could phone up Battersea Dog's Home and ask them to take Nigel the Bulldog away. But we'd feel like utter scumbags for doing that. At least today we would...
    ‘you and I didn’t want the dog in the first place’

    =

    ‘These people never wanted to be parents in the first place”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-brexit-is-just-like-having-a-baby/

    Brexit = Baby remains the greatest analogy in the history of PB - maybe in the history of humanity. We can only hope that one day the immortal @SeanT might one day *Rejoin* pb

    The analogy falls down because having a baby isn't that difficult and is a source of joy and fulfillment to the parents from day one. I'd say that Brexit is more like having a shit, one that turns out to be an unflushable turd. All that strain, followed by a bad smell and lingering embarrassment.
    Post-natal depression is not uncommon, and can be particularly difficult to deal with because you're supposed to be happy about having a baby.

    Will the Brexit baby blues pass?
    I'd say they lifted when it became clear we'd get vaccinated before most of Europe. If we just stick at steadily choosing to do the right thing for the UK, and diverging sensibly where necessary, those types of advantages will occur more frequently. It seems to me actually very hard work to be as shit at being out of the EU as we are at the moment.
    We were vaccinated before most of the rest of Europe because we have (probably) the best pharma industry in Europe. The vaccine "thing" is the Brexit apologists only argument and it is as vacuous and nonsensical as their lying bus slogan.
    Nah that's utter rubbish. You are just trying to rewrite history to suit your own agenda. You are claiming that various EU countries just sat around refusing to authorise vaccines because they wanted to? They did it because, in spite of what the rules might have said about emergency approvals, the EU were desperate to have a united front on vaccines and acted on that basis.

    There is an excellent article from Politico.eu about this which is worth reading as it sets out just what went so wrong with the EU vaccine response.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/

    From the article

    "Countries can’t just follow the U.K.’s lead by unilaterally authorizing vaccines purchased by the EU — doses purchased by Brussels can only be released after they get the EMA’s signoff, according to the agreement. So even though Budapest tried to make a point by green-lighting the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab, it won’t get any shots before the rest of the bloc."
    Honestly Richard, did you read that article?

    "France and Spain separately began talks with Moderna, according to the Commission official. By mid-April, Paris and Berlin started negotiating together to buy vaccines, according to an Elysée official.

    EU27 health ministers signed off on a Commission plan to buy on their behalf on June 12. But the Franco-German initiative continued to press forward, having invited the Netherlands and Italy to join their buyers’ club. "


    Granted, France and Germany decided ultimately to stop their 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' and join in with the EU scheme but there was no necessity to do that, no compulsion.
    If there was no necessity ir compulsion, why did they do it? Doing so was clearly a shit idea.
    Not every EU country was part of the EU vaccine purchase plan: Hungary publicly snubbed it to purchase Sputnik instead. (And then came back later after Sputnik was a bit of a dud.)
    But that's not an argument against Richard's - he said that we could have approved and used vaccines that weren't shared with the EU scheme, and that is presumably why Hungary could use Sputnik.
    Which is exactly the point made in the article. If you wanted the mainstream vaccines you had to be part of the EU scheme and suffer the associated delays and unnecessary deaths. If you wanted some cheap Russian knock off that didn't work then fill your boots.

    Being outside the EU was a genuine benefit when it came to vaccines.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?
    The issue is overwhelmingly toxic to the rest of the population.

    This is terrible politics.
    Mainstream Tory-leaning people just think today’s Tories are absolute arseholes. They are going to stay home in droves.

    Contra to Casino, I am starting to think the Tories are actually setting themselves up for just the kind of annihilation we see in some polls.
    Supporting the death penalty for serial killers is mainstream, over 50% of voters back it.

    Even if the Tories didn't go as far as backing the death penalty for all murderers, there would be majority backing for serial killers.

    It is unlikely the Tories ever will back capital punishment again but another party of the populist right like RefUK? Very likely
    You would take a life of somebody else would you? You sit behind your keyboard with your polls and your Tory Party propaganda set but I bet you couldn't.

    You look that person in the eye and you take their life, they are gone forever. Could you really do
    that?
    That depends on the circumstances.

    Ted Heath commanded a firing squad. I imagine you or I could also do so.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    If you are a lesbian couple who occasionally play loud music and openly smoke dope, where are you more likely to be reported to the Police?
    A Red Wall town?
    Or Surrey suburbia?
    From my experience of Red Wall towns, they would probably be asked where they get their Mary Jane, if it's good stuff.

    Surrey suburbanites would be a bit sniffy about weed smokers - cocaine users really look down on them for some reason.
    Yeah. Having lived in both recently, I find working class attitudes to be conservative in theory and extremely tolerant of the unimportant private stuff in practice.
    And middle class the opposite. Petty intolerance and intrusion. Woe betide if your hedge isn't trimmed.
    And the middle class interrogation/inquisition of your social values - likes Mumsnet. In fact that *is* Mumsnet.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Rishi believes in the death penalty - I am staggered that his so-called religion would allow him to but what do I know? - then he should come out and say so.

    These are the last throws of a dying Government.

    But these are not empty words, we are talking about people here. People that will have their lives taken if it meant a few points in the polls.

    This country needs a reset and fast. We're heading one way right now and it is not the compassionate country that the UK is or should be.

    The Tories must get out of Government.

    The death penalty is rather divisive. Simplistically I see two reasons not to have it (or possibly three). Firstly some believe the state should not have to take lives, period. Secondly there are those who have less of an issue with that, but still oppose because there is too much chance of a terminal miscarriage of justice. Lastly there is the argument that it doesn’t actually act as a deterrent.

    I am not in favour of restoring the death penalty, but events such as the murders of Lee Rigby and Sarah Everard test peoples beliefs to the limit. Why should such murderers have live, when their victims do not.
    Why should serial killers be released from prison too, as this one may be about to be?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11713743/Serial-killer-Patrick-Mackay-grilled-Parole-Board-safe-freed-freed.html
    Why do you think you know better than the Parole Board? Your problem is you think you are an expert in everything.
    Because parole boards have a habit of releasing people saying they are no longer a threat who then go on to repeat their crimes? Seems a good reason not to trust parole boards
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,139
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Never even heard the term UXer before.

    Think yourself lucky they are like an evil ofsted
    So. Like Ofsted then?
    No ofsted mean well, uxdesigners think pretty trumps functional
    Design should flow from function imo. Minimum buttons. Big letters. Make it hard to cock up or get confused.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I'm slow to catch-up on the West Lancashire by-election news but I'm not sure a 10.5% swing points at a Labour landslide, let alone a Tory wipeout. And turnout was woeful.

    There were bigger swings against Labour in the 2005-2010 Parliament in a variety of by-elections, including Crewe & Nantwich, Norwich North, Sedgefield, and Glasgow East.

    I think an awful lot turns on whether the Conservatives can rally their base.

    But as Mike makes clear in the thread header it is difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions from a Labour victory in a very safe Labour seat. Claiming the swing is not big enough is not really valid when Labour already had over 50% of the vote.
    Very safe? The result was Lab 52%, Con 36% in 2019.
    The herd simply can't handle the argument.

    Hence the defensive likes for those posts they think are refuting it.
    I must say I have never considered myself part of any party herd on here. Though sadly you seem to be drifting back in that direction.
  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    edited February 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    You’ve had bad luck.
    I accept there is a purist tendency among some.
    The secret as a manager is to identify them and weed them out before they have a chance to fuck the project.

    Same goes for shit developers, although possibly easier to deal with as they tend to get ratted out by peers (or the Jira board).
    Last example was a ux designer who wanted radio buttons for how to pay. Two options which one of was paypal but also wanted a paypal button on screen. We went back to the product people and said either the radio buttons are correct or get rid of the paypal button you dont need both, select a radio button and you get the correct pay button showing. Not you can select to pay another way but then the only button that shows is paypal
    That UX designer was sh*t at UX. You were doing their job for them.

    Having said that, I can't remember the last time I saw a well-designed website. I've seen many, though, that must have cost the Earth to design and yet still came out as absolute sh*t. Example: the Winchester College site. It's almost as if it was designed by a member of the royal family or something, and nobody was brave enough to tell them their work was so bad it wasn't worth spitting at.

    Most book cover designs are garbage these days too. I wouldn't put any from the past 40 years in my top 10. The one that everyone mentions is Jurassic Park. I'd put that no higher than in the "quite good" category.

    It may even be the case that most design is garbage these days. Municipal libraries for instance.
  • Sean_F said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    You answered your own question. Lots of people agree with Lee Anderson.
    Not the ones who might be persuaded into voting Tory.
    Rishi isn't appealing to you.

    Like i said, he's fighting de-fence.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I'm slow to catch-up on the West Lancashire by-election news but I'm not sure a 10.5% swing points at a Labour landslide, let alone a Tory wipeout. And turnout was woeful.

    There were bigger swings against Labour in the 2005-2010 Parliament in a variety of by-elections, including Crewe & Nantwich, Norwich North, Sedgefield, and Glasgow East.

    I think an awful lot turns on whether the Conservatives can rally their base.

    But as Mike makes clear in the thread header it is difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions from a Labour victory in a very safe Labour seat. Claiming the swing is not big enough is not really valid when Labour already had over 50% of the vote.
    Very safe? The result was Lab 52%, Con 36% in 2019.
    The herd simply can't handle the argument.

    Hence the defensive likes for those posts they think are refuting it.
    I must say I have never considered myself part of any party herd on here. Though sadly you seem to be drifting back in that direction.
    I wasn't referring to you.

    I think I'm the only one making this particular argument.
  • Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?
    The issue is overwhelmingly toxic to the rest of the population.

    This is terrible politics.
    Mainstream Tory-leaning people just think today’s Tories are absolute arseholes. They are going to stay home in droves.

    Contra to Casino, I am starting to think the Tories are actually setting themselves up for just the kind of annihilation we see in some polls.
    Supporting the death penalty for serial killers is mainstream, over 50% of voters back it.

    Even if the Tories didn't go as far as backing the death penalty for all murderers, there would be majority backing for serial killers.

    It is unlikely the Tories ever will back capital punishment again but another party of the populist right like RefUK? Very likely
    You would take a life of somebody else would you? You sit behind your keyboard with your polls and your Tory Party propaganda set but I bet you couldn't.

    You look that person in the eye and you take their life, they are gone forever. Could you really do
    that?
    That depends on the circumstances.

    Ted Heath commanded a firing squad. I imagine you or I could also do so.

    Ted Heath was an ideological pro-European federalist, and otherwise a corporatist centrist.

    Possibly the only really serious one we've ever had here.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Lib Dems are also staring at a REALLY bad general election, when they would normally hope to benefit from Tory travails

    I do not understand their inertia. The tactical move for them is obvious. Come out, loud and proud, as the party of Rejoin the EU immediately (after another referendum). There are enough hardcore Remoaners in southern England and the like to win them quite a few seats, indeed Remoaners tempted by Starmer might vote tactically for the LDs in the hope that they can pressure him towards Rejoin in a hung parliament

    What the F are they playing at? This would also bring them much needed attention

    It is amazing to me that no UK party is going out there swinging for the Rejoin vote, when the polls are clearly showing Brexit remorse

    That's an interesting idea but we need to get more precise with the language on this now. After nearly 7 years you can't be both a Remoaner and a Rejoiner. A Remoaner is passive, pissed off, backwards looking; a Rejoiner is head up, future facing, active.

    I avoid analogies as a rule, they're overdone in punditry and can easily slide into a silliness that helps no-one (eg Brexit is like changing a nappy), but a good way to illustrate what I mean here is to imagine your dog has shat on the carpet.

    In which case you can (i) sit there looking at it, grumbling at the mess, castigating the dog and yourself for failing to train it properly; or (ii) you can screw that for a game of soldiers and go, "right, let's get this cleared up!" and then think about getting a goldfish.

    Option (i) is Remoaning. Option (ii) is the can-do spirit of Rejoin.

    I'm a Remoaner btw. I'm still slumped in my chair gazing at the steaming pile of doo doo, chuntering how it shouldn't have happened, "why oh why oh why", unable (yet) to get up and do anything about it. But one day (and I'll let everyone know when this happens) I'll snap out of this and then I'll be a Remoaner no more. I'll be a Rejoiner.
    The thing is you and I didn't want the dog in the first place. Indeed, we raised some questions of what would happen to the cream carpets and the reasonably nice furniture. But we were overruled by our other half and their parents. This sort of thing happens, and is one of the spices of life. But they're not cleaning the mess up either, and sometimes hint that it's our fault for not training the dog properly.

    And the worst of it? It's getting to the point where we probably could phone up Battersea Dog's Home and ask them to take Nigel the Bulldog away. But we'd feel like utter scumbags for doing that. At least today we would...
    ‘you and I didn’t want the dog in the first place’

    =

    ‘These people never wanted to be parents in the first place”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-brexit-is-just-like-having-a-baby/

    Brexit = Baby remains the greatest analogy in the history of PB - maybe in the history of humanity. We can only hope that one day the immortal @SeanT might one day *Rejoin* pb

    The analogy falls down because having a baby isn't that difficult and is a source of joy and fulfillment to the parents from day one. I'd say that Brexit is more like having a shit, one that turns out to be an unflushable turd. All that strain, followed by a bad smell and lingering embarrassment.
    Post-natal depression is not uncommon, and can be particularly difficult to deal with because you're supposed to be happy about having a baby.

    Will the Brexit baby blues pass?
    I'd say they lifted when it became clear we'd get vaccinated before most of Europe. If we just stick at steadily choosing to do the right thing for the UK, and diverging sensibly where necessary, those types of advantages will occur more frequently. It seems to me actually very hard work to be as shit at being out of the EU as we are at the moment.
    We were vaccinated before most of the rest of Europe because we have (probably) the best pharma industry in Europe. The vaccine "thing" is the Brexit apologists only argument and it is as vacuous and nonsensical as their lying bus slogan.
    Nah that's utter rubbish. You are just trying to rewrite history to suit your own agenda. You are claiming that various EU countries just sat around refusing to authorise vaccines because they wanted to? They did it because, in spite of what the rules might have said about emergency approvals, the EU were desperate to have a united front on vaccines and acted on that basis.

    There is an excellent article from Politico.eu about this which is worth reading as it sets out just what went so wrong with the EU vaccine response.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/

    From the article

    "Countries can’t just follow the U.K.’s lead by unilaterally authorizing vaccines purchased by the EU — doses purchased by Brussels can only be released after they get the EMA’s signoff, according to the agreement. So even though Budapest tried to make a point by green-lighting the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab, it won’t get any shots before the rest of the bloc."
    Honestly Richard, did you read that article?

    "France and Spain separately began talks with Moderna, according to the Commission official. By mid-April, Paris and Berlin started negotiating together to buy vaccines, according to an Elysée official.

    EU27 health ministers signed off on a Commission plan to buy on their behalf on June 12. But the Franco-German initiative continued to press forward, having invited the Netherlands and Italy to join their buyers’ club. "


    Granted, France and Germany decided ultimately to stop their 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' and join in with the EU scheme but there was no necessity to do that, no compulsion.
    If there was no necessity ir compulsion, why did they do it? Doing so was clearly a shit idea.
    Not every EU country was part of the EU vaccine purchase plan: Hungary publicly snubbed it to purchase Sputnik instead. (And then came back later after Sputnik was a bit of a dud.)
    But that's not an argument against Richard's - he said that we could have approved and used vaccines that weren't shared with the EU scheme, and that is presumably why Hungary could use Sputnik.
    Which is exactly the point made in the article. If you wanted the mainstream vaccines you had to be part of the EU scheme and suffer the associated delays and unnecessary deaths. If you wanted some cheap Russian knock off that didn't work then fill your boots.

    Being outside the EU was a genuine benefit when it came to vaccines.

    But only because the Government itself took unilateral action outside the EU structures. It if it had joined the EU scheme or sat there like a lemon, there would have been no inherent benefit. Leaving opens the door - the benefit of an open door necessitates walking through it.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662

    Sean_F said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    You answered your own question. Lots of people agree with Lee Anderson.
    Not the ones who might be persuaded into voting Tory.
    Rishi isn't appealing to you.

    Like i said, he's fighting de-fence.
    I think the fence will win
  • Sean_F said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    You answered your own question. Lots of people agree with Lee Anderson.
    Not the ones who might be persuaded into voting Tory.
    If you're fighting de-fence you're no longer trying to persuade new people to vote Tory, but to rally those who already are.

    Lee Anderson plays a role in that and helps spike defections to Reform.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?
    The issue is overwhelmingly toxic to the rest of the population.

    This is terrible politics.
    Mainstream Tory-leaning people just think today’s Tories are absolute arseholes. They are going to stay home in droves.

    Contra to Casino, I am starting to think the Tories are actually setting themselves up for just the kind of annihilation we see in some polls.
    Supporting the death penalty for serial killers is mainstream, over 50% of voters back it.

    Even if the Tories didn't go as far as backing the death penalty for all murderers, there would be majority backing for serial killers.

    It is unlikely the Tories ever will back capital punishment again but another party of the populist right like RefUK? Very likely
    You would take a life of somebody else would you? You sit behind your keyboard with your polls and your Tory Party propaganda set but I bet you couldn't.

    You look that person in the eye and you take their life, they are gone forever. Could you really do
    that?
    That depends on the circumstances.

    Ted Heath commanded a firing squad. I imagine you or I could also do so.

    Ted Heath was an ideological pro-European federalist, and otherwise a corporatist centrist.

    Possibly the only really serious one we've ever had here.
    The lisbon treaty actually supports the death penalty in any case
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696
    edited February 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Rishi believes in the death penalty - I am staggered that his so-called religion would allow him to but what do I know? - then he should come out and say so.

    These are the last throws of a dying Government.

    But these are not empty words, we are talking about people here. People that will have their lives taken if it meant a few points in the polls.

    This country needs a reset and fast. We're heading one way right now and it is not the compassionate country that the UK is or should be.

    The Tories must get out of Government.

    The death penalty is rather divisive. Simplistically I see two reasons not to have it (or possibly three). Firstly some believe the state should not have to take lives, period. Secondly there are those who have less of an issue with that, but still oppose because there is too much chance of a terminal miscarriage of justice. Lastly there is the argument that it doesn’t actually act as a deterrent.

    I am not in favour of restoring the death penalty, but events such as the murders of Lee Rigby and Sarah Everard test peoples beliefs to the limit. Why should such murderers have live, when their victims do not.
    Why should serial killers be released from prison too, as this one may be about to be?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11713743/Serial-killer-Patrick-Mackay-grilled-Parole-Board-safe-freed-freed.html
    Why do you think you know better than the Parole Board? Your problem is you think you are an expert in everything.
    Because parole boards have a habit of releasing people saying they are no longer a threat who then go on to repeat their crimes? Seems a good reason not to trust parole boards
    What makes you think HYUFD from an obscure politics blog would do a better job?
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696
    Big news from Alaska.
    *wakes for Leon to wake up and start going on about aliens*
  • rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Lib Dems are also staring at a REALLY bad general election, when they would normally hope to benefit from Tory travails

    I do not understand their inertia. The tactical move for them is obvious. Come out, loud and proud, as the party of Rejoin the EU immediately (after another referendum). There are enough hardcore Remoaners in southern England and the like to win them quite a few seats, indeed Remoaners tempted by Starmer might vote tactically for the LDs in the hope that they can pressure him towards Rejoin in a hung parliament

    What the F are they playing at? This would also bring them much needed attention

    It is amazing to me that no UK party is going out there swinging for the Rejoin vote, when the polls are clearly showing Brexit remorse

    That's an interesting idea but we need to get more precise with the language on this now. After nearly 7 years you can't be both a Remoaner and a Rejoiner. A Remoaner is passive, pissed off, backwards looking; a Rejoiner is head up, future facing, active.

    I avoid analogies as a rule, they're overdone in punditry and can easily slide into a silliness that helps no-one (eg Brexit is like changing a nappy), but a good way to illustrate what I mean here is to imagine your dog has shat on the carpet.

    In which case you can (i) sit there looking at it, grumbling at the mess, castigating the dog and yourself for failing to train it properly; or (ii) you can screw that for a game of soldiers and go, "right, let's get this cleared up!" and then think about getting a goldfish.

    Option (i) is Remoaning. Option (ii) is the can-do spirit of Rejoin.

    I'm a Remoaner btw. I'm still slumped in my chair gazing at the steaming pile of doo doo, chuntering how it shouldn't have happened, "why oh why oh why", unable (yet) to get up and do anything about it. But one day (and I'll let everyone know when this happens) I'll snap out of this and then I'll be a Remoaner no more. I'll be a Rejoiner.
    The thing is you and I didn't want the dog in the first place. Indeed, we raised some questions of what would happen to the cream carpets and the reasonably nice furniture. But we were overruled by our other half and their parents. This sort of thing happens, and is one of the spices of life. But they're not cleaning the mess up either, and sometimes hint that it's our fault for not training the dog properly.

    And the worst of it? It's getting to the point where we probably could phone up Battersea Dog's Home and ask them to take Nigel the Bulldog away. But we'd feel like utter scumbags for doing that. At least today we would...
    ‘you and I didn’t want the dog in the first place’

    =

    ‘These people never wanted to be parents in the first place”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-brexit-is-just-like-having-a-baby/

    Brexit = Baby remains the greatest analogy in the history of PB - maybe in the history of humanity. We can only hope that one day the immortal @SeanT might one day *Rejoin* pb

    The analogy falls down because having a baby isn't that difficult and is a source of joy and fulfillment to the parents from day one. I'd say that Brexit is more like having a shit, one that turns out to be an unflushable turd. All that strain, followed by a bad smell and lingering embarrassment.
    Post-natal depression is not uncommon, and can be particularly difficult to deal with because you're supposed to be happy about having a baby.

    Will the Brexit baby blues pass?
    I'd say they lifted when it became clear we'd get vaccinated before most of Europe. If we just stick at steadily choosing to do the right thing for the UK, and diverging sensibly where necessary, those types of advantages will occur more frequently. It seems to me actually very hard work to be as shit at being out of the EU as we are at the moment.
    We were vaccinated before most of the rest of Europe because we have (probably) the best pharma industry in Europe. The vaccine "thing" is the Brexit apologists only argument and it is as vacuous and nonsensical as their lying bus slogan.
    Nah that's utter rubbish. You are just trying to rewrite history to suit your own agenda. You are claiming that various EU countries just sat around refusing to authorise vaccines because they wanted to? They did it because, in spite of what the rules might have said about emergency approvals, the EU were desperate to have a united front on vaccines and acted on that basis.

    There is an excellent article from Politico.eu about this which is worth reading as it sets out just what went so wrong with the EU vaccine response.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/

    From the article

    "Countries can’t just follow the U.K.’s lead by unilaterally authorizing vaccines purchased by the EU — doses purchased by Brussels can only be released after they get the EMA’s signoff, according to the agreement. So even though Budapest tried to make a point by green-lighting the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab, it won’t get any shots before the rest of the bloc."
    Honestly Richard, did you read that article?

    "France and Spain separately began talks with Moderna, according to the Commission official. By mid-April, Paris and Berlin started negotiating together to buy vaccines, according to an Elysée official.

    EU27 health ministers signed off on a Commission plan to buy on their behalf on June 12. But the Franco-German initiative continued to press forward, having invited the Netherlands and Italy to join their buyers’ club. "


    Granted, France and Germany decided ultimately to stop their 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' and join in with the EU scheme but there was no necessity to do that, no compulsion.
    If there was no necessity ir compulsion, why did they do it? Doing so was clearly a shit idea.
    Not every EU country was part of the EU vaccine purchase plan: Hungary publicly snubbed it to purchase Sputnik instead. (And then came back later after Sputnik was a bit of a dud.)
    But that's not an argument against Richard's - he said that we could have approved and used vaccines that weren't shared with the EU scheme, and that is presumably why Hungary could use Sputnik.
    Which is exactly the point made in the article. If you wanted the mainstream vaccines you had to be part of the EU scheme and suffer the associated delays and unnecessary deaths. If you wanted some cheap Russian knock off that didn't work then fill your boots.

    Being outside the EU was a genuine benefit when it came to vaccines.

    But only because the Government itself took unilateral action outside the EU structures. It if it had joined the EU scheme or sat there like a lemon, there would have been no inherent benefit. Leaving opens the door - the benefit of an open door necessitates walking through it.
    Again agree completely.
  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    edited February 2023
    DJ41a said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    You’ve had bad luck.
    I accept there is a purist tendency among some.
    The secret as a manager is to identify them and weed them out before they have a chance to fuck the project.

    Same goes for shit developers, although possibly easier to deal with as they tend to get ratted out by peers (or the Jira board).
    Last example was a ux designer who wanted radio buttons for how to pay. Two options which one of was paypal but also wanted a paypal button on screen. We went back to the product people and said either the radio buttons are correct or get rid of the paypal button you dont need both, select a radio button and you get the correct pay button showing. Not you can select to pay another way but then the only button that shows is paypal
    That UX designer was sh*t at UX. You were doing their job for them.

    Having said that, I can't remember the last time I saw a well-designed website. I've seen many, though, that must have cost the Earth to design and yet still came out as absolute sh*t. Example: the Winchester College site. It's almost as if it was designed by a member of the royal family or something, and nobody was brave enough to tell them their work was so bad it wasn't worth spitting at.

    Most book cover designs are garbage these days too. I wouldn't put any from the past 40 years in my top 10. The one that everyone mentions is Jurassic Park. I'd put that no higher than in the "quite good" category.

    It may even be the case that most design is garbage these days. Municipal libraries for instance.
    Come to think of it, Google's main website is well designed.
    As for PB, seriously - all the grey! And "SITE LINKS" as a header.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Sean_F said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    You answered your own question. Lots of people agree with Lee Anderson.
    Not the ones who might be persuaded into voting Tory.
    If you're fighting de-fence you're no longer trying to persuade new people to vote Tory, but to rally those who already are.

    Lee Anderson plays a role in that and helps spike defections to Reform.
    The problem is that they are already at an essential floor, and one at which they will be annihilated.

    By the way, defence has no hyphen.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785
    DJ41a said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I should be the ideal young Tory voter.

    Own a house, work in the private sector, earn very well and I am a hard worker.

    Yet the Tories continue to drift away from me. One day this will cause them a lot of problems, that day will yet come.

    Tech workers are probably not Tories, on the whole.
    We aren't labour or lib dem supporters either because they are all shite
    Given your rather contrary contributions to PB one doubts you are indicative of anything apart from the political preferences of certain blobfish.
    Most it people are intelligent apart from ux designers, we realise that none of the parties figures add up
    That’s a slur on UX designers.

    In my experience techies tend to be cynical libertarians with social democratic tendencies (or social democrats with libertarian tendencies). I would wage that Tory voting share with techies right now is close to single figures.
    There is a reason most it people refer to UX designers as crayons
    As a class, I get on well with UXers.
    I’m sorry to hear you hold them in comtempt.
    Perhaps the standard has dropped in the last several years.

    In my experience, “content managers” have the least actual skill.
    UX'ers tend to be it looks pretty over it works, you get on with them says more about you than me however yes content managers are even worse
    In my experience UX vs implementing engineers is a bit like Architects vs builders.

    The good ones love feedback on the practicality of their designs and seek it out, then adapt to what works.

    The bad ones get precious and stamp their feet when their artistic integrity is called into question.
    I have only so far met the latter
    You’ve had bad luck.
    I accept there is a purist tendency among some.
    The secret as a manager is to identify them and weed them out before they have a chance to fuck the project.

    Same goes for shit developers, although possibly easier to deal with as they tend to get ratted out by peers (or the Jira board).
    Last example was a ux designer who wanted radio buttons for how to pay. Two options which one of was paypal but also wanted a paypal button on screen. We went back to the product people and said either the radio buttons are correct or get rid of the paypal button you dont need both, select a radio button and you get the correct pay button showing. Not you can select to pay another way but then the only button that shows is paypal
    That UX designer was sh*t at UX. You were doing their job for them.

    Having said that, I can't remember the last time I saw a well-designed website. I've seen many, though, that must have cost the Earth to design and yet still came out as absolute sh*t. Example: the Winchester College site. It's almost as if it was designed by a member of the royal family or something, and nobody was brave enough to tell them their work was so bad it wasn't worth spitting at.

    Most book cover designs are garbage these days too. I wouldn't put any from the past 40 years in my top 10. The one that everyone mentions is Jurassic Park. I'd put that no higher than in the "quite good" category.

    It may even be the case that most design is garbage these days. Municipal libraries for instance.
    Have you ever considered becoming a critic for The Spectator? I hear they'll take almost anyone.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    "BREAKING: The Pentagon has downed a object over Alaska - NYT"

    https://twitter.com/Faytuks/status/1624128297712906240

    "UPDATE: White House says that the US DoD was tracking a high-altitude object above Alaska. Biden ordered the object to be downed"
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    If you are a lesbian couple who occasionally play loud music and openly smoke dope, where are you more likely to be reported to the Police?
    A Red Wall town?
    Or Surrey suburbia?
    From my experience of Red Wall towns, they would probably be asked where they get their Mary Jane, if it's good stuff.

    Surrey suburbanites would be a bit sniffy about weed smokers - cocaine users really look down on them for some reason.
    Yeah. Having lived in both recently, I find working class attitudes to be conservative in theory and extremely tolerant of the unimportant private stuff in practice.
    And middle class the opposite. Petty intolerance and intrusion. Woe betide if your hedge isn't trimmed.
    Are we back to the dope smoking lesbians?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    middle class - hyacinth bouquet
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    DJ41a said:

    That UX designer was sh*t at UX. You were doing their job for them.

    Having said that, I can't remember the last time I saw a well-designed website. I've seen many, though, that must have cost the Earth to design and yet still came out as absolute sh*t. Example: the Winchester College site. It's almost as if it was designed by a member of the royal family or something, and nobody was brave enough to tell them their work was so bad it wasn't worth spitting at.

    Most book cover designs are garbage these days too. I wouldn't put any from the past 40 years in my top 10. The one that everyone mentions is Jurassic Park. I'd put that no higher than in the "quite good" category.

    It may even be the case that most design is garbage these days. Municipal libraries for instance.

    One thing I'd say about websites: the first thing that gets dropped in the UI is accessibility. Over a couple of elections (2015/17, I think), I ranked each of the main party's websites by accessibility criteria. Annoyingly I cannot remember which one was best, but accessibility is massively important, and so often ignored.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    That is a very fair analysis. But personally do you believe in the death penalty for any particular circumstances? I don't.
    It depends upon circumstances. If it were wartime, I'd have no problem with the death penalty for traitors and war criminals.

    If we faced a complete breakdown in law and order, again, capital punishment would be legitimate.

    The current rate of homicides in the UK is so low that there is no need for it.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785

    DJ41a said:

    That UX designer was sh*t at UX. You were doing their job for them.

    Having said that, I can't remember the last time I saw a well-designed website. I've seen many, though, that must have cost the Earth to design and yet still came out as absolute sh*t. Example: the Winchester College site. It's almost as if it was designed by a member of the royal family or something, and nobody was brave enough to tell them their work was so bad it wasn't worth spitting at.

    Most book cover designs are garbage these days too. I wouldn't put any from the past 40 years in my top 10. The one that everyone mentions is Jurassic Park. I'd put that no higher than in the "quite good" category.

    It may even be the case that most design is garbage these days. Municipal libraries for instance.

    One thing I'd say about websites: the first thing that gets dropped in the UI is accessibility. Over a couple of elections (2015/17, I think), I ranked each of the main party's websites by accessibility criteria. Annoyingly I cannot remember which one was best, but accessibility is massively important, and so often ignored.
    It's also so difficult. It never fails to frustrate me how hard it is to make something work well with screen readers etc. I try - but the endless arguments even amongst the a11y people make it so frustrating.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358

    B

    The problem is that the Tory Party has lost any sense of right and wrong.

    Obviously the death penalty is wrong - giving a referendum on it would be despicable. But it's not about that anymore, they don't take a stand on anything. If they can get a few votes in the short term they will do it.

    This lot need to be junked and junked in a big way. For the first time I am convinced we need a Labour landslide.

    For the first time I am convinced we are getting one.
    Totally irrational.

    You are 'convinced' we are getting one because someone has challenged the fact that we might not be getting one.

    This is @Gardenwalker lashing out because his neocortex is fighting with his brain stem.
    Your team may well win, come the election. At the moment the evidence is not pointing to that result.

    However there are two years to go, there might be any number of black swan events and you have Lee Anderson and a capital punishment referendum to temp the voters.
    I don't believe there is any prospect of the Conservatives winning the next election.

    But, it makes perfect sense for them to persuade their core voters to turn out. 33% of the vote and 230 or so seats is perfectly achievable, but it won't be achieved by trying to appeal to Orange Bookers.
  • Pagan2 said:

    middle class - hyacinth bouquet

    Missing the point of the TV show - Hyacinth was working class pretending to be "posh".
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,154
    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Don't you mean that the footnote means that national parliaments can reintroduce the death penalty under those circumstances without the country being in beach of its EU treaty commitments.
  • Sean_F said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    You answered your own question. Lots of people agree with Lee Anderson.
    Not the ones who might be persuaded into voting Tory.
    If you're fighting de-fence you're no longer trying to persuade new people to vote Tory, but to rally those who already are.

    Lee Anderson plays a role in that and helps spike defections to Reform.
    The problem is that they are already at an essential floor, and one at which they will be annihilated.

    By the way, defence has no hyphen.
    That's how the Americans say it. I spell it like that deliberately: "ahhllright, de-fence!"
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    edited February 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Don't you mean that the footnote means that national parliaments can reintroduce the death penalty under those circumstances without the country being in beach of its EU treaty commitments.
    Yes precisely my point, the eu we keep getting told is the bastion that protects our human rights, however seems they are fine with the death penalty.
  • Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Don't you mean that the footnote means that national parliaments can reintroduce the death penalty under those circumstances without the country being in beach of its EU treaty commitments.
    Yes precisely my point, the eu we keep getting told is the bastion that protects our human rights, however seems they are fine with the death penalty.
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    ohnotnow said:

    DJ41a said:

    That UX designer was sh*t at UX. You were doing their job for them.

    Having said that, I can't remember the last time I saw a well-designed website. I've seen many, though, that must have cost the Earth to design and yet still came out as absolute sh*t. Example: the Winchester College site. It's almost as if it was designed by a member of the royal family or something, and nobody was brave enough to tell them their work was so bad it wasn't worth spitting at.

    Most book cover designs are garbage these days too. I wouldn't put any from the past 40 years in my top 10. The one that everyone mentions is Jurassic Park. I'd put that no higher than in the "quite good" category.

    It may even be the case that most design is garbage these days. Municipal libraries for instance.

    One thing I'd say about websites: the first thing that gets dropped in the UI is accessibility. Over a couple of elections (2015/17, I think), I ranked each of the main party's websites by accessibility criteria. Annoyingly I cannot remember which one was best, but accessibility is massively important, and so often ignored.
    It's also so difficult. It never fails to frustrate me how hard it is to make something work well with screen readers etc. I try - but the endless arguments even amongst the a11y people make it so frustrating.
    Think the a11y people are bad? You should try the i18n people...

    But in all seriousness, I agree. My own personal website is pretty much all Web 1.0 (and totally unoptimised for mobiles...) but then it was started 25 years ago, and accessibility's hard enough with that.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    If you are a lesbian couple who occasionally play loud music and openly smoke dope, where are you more likely to be reported to the Police?
    A Red Wall town?
    Or Surrey suburbia?
    Too many variables. Are they a lesbian couple who smoke dope and drink tinnies whilst inviting round anyone they met that day and putting 90’s house music on a full pelt or are they a lesbian couple who smoke dope whilst listening to felt mountain or anything by portishead loud to get the bass feel and countering the chill of the dope with some bumps of coke?

    Are they in a staunchly conservative red wall town who don’t like that kind of thing or hyacinth bucket Surrey suburbia? Or anything goes quasi university land in a northern red wall uni town or commuter belt surrey middle class who are hoovering the dinner party drugs?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    boulay said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    If you are a lesbian couple who occasionally play loud music and openly smoke dope, where are you more likely to be reported to the Police?
    A Red Wall town?
    Or Surrey suburbia?
    Too many variables. Are they a lesbian couple who smoke dope and drink tinnies whilst inviting round anyone they met that day and putting 90’s house music on a full pelt or are they a lesbian couple who smoke dope whilst listening to felt mountain or anything by portishead loud to get the bass feel and countering the chill of the dope with some bumps of coke?

    Are they in a staunchly conservative red wall town who don’t like that kind of thing or hyacinth bucket Surrey suburbia? Or anything goes quasi university land in a northern red wall uni town or commuter belt surrey middle class who are hoovering the dinner party drugs?
    Personally would rather hang out with the first set
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    boulay said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    If Rishi is playing “defence”, why has he appointed Lee Anderson to spout shit?

    2%

    Because a lot of existing Con voters like that sort of thing.
    Yes, but that “existing” is now a declining, angry, and frankly mentalist slice of the population.
    53% of voters back the death penalty for serial killers, 40% of all voters back the death penalty.

    That is far higher than the current Tory voteshare
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/britons-dont-tend-support-death-penalty-until-you-
    So?

    Voters used to support Section 28 and it was just as wrong then.
    And the Tories never repealed S28, Labour did in 2003.

    It was also Labour that permanently abolished capital punishment in 1969, not the Tories
    My recollection is that votes on the death penalty have never been whipped. All parties have allowed their MPs to vote according to their consciences. If you are trying to make it a party political issue, you are absolutely wrong.
    I am not particularly but if Tory MPs like Anderson want to back the death penalty they are perfectly entitled to do so, in fact in working class areas like Ashfield most of their voters would agree with their position on the subject.

    The middle class have always been more economically conservative than the working class but the working class have always been more socially conservative than the middle class
    If you are a lesbian couple who occasionally play loud music and openly smoke dope, where are you more likely to be reported to the Police?
    A Red Wall town?
    Or Surrey suburbia?
    Too many variables. Are they a lesbian couple who smoke dope and drink tinnies whilst inviting round anyone they met that day and putting 90’s house music on a full pelt or are they a lesbian couple who smoke dope whilst listening to felt mountain or anything by portishead loud to get the bass feel and countering the chill of the dope with some bumps of coke?

    Are they in a staunchly conservative red wall town who don’t like that kind of thing or hyacinth bucket Surrey suburbia? Or anything goes quasi university land in a northern red wall uni town or commuter belt surrey middle class who are hoovering the dinner party drugs?
    There is only one sort of loud music you don't want and that is the annoying sort. Speaking of capital offences.....

  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
    I quote a german proffesor of constitutional matters you quote wikapedia....sorry ball still in your court
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
    I quote a german proffesor of constitutional matters you quote wikapedia....sorry ball still in your court
    I'm quoting the Treaty of Lisbon. And the Latvian government.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
    I quote a german proffesor of constitutional matters you quote wikapedia....sorry ball still in your court
    I'm quoting the Treaty of Lisbon. And the Latvian government.
    No you quoted what wikapedia says about them
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Rather unpromising material for a free trade association that definitely certainly isn't trying to be a state telling its people what to do and think.

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
    I quote a german proffesor of constitutional matters you quote wikapedia....sorry ball still in your court
    I'm quoting the Treaty of Lisbon. And the Latvian government.
    No you quoted what wikapedia says about them
    and lativia is irrelevant yes the may have given up the death penalty....that does not mean lisbon treaty bans it
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
    I quote a german proffesor of constitutional matters you quote wikapedia....sorry ball still in your court
    I'm quoting the Treaty of Lisbon. And the Latvian government.
    No you quoted what Wikipedia says about them
    Abolition of the death penalty for ALL offences has been in place in all EU members for a decade.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,637

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
    I quote a german proffesor of constitutional matters you quote wikapedia....sorry ball still in your court
    I'm quoting the Treaty of Lisbon. And the Latvian government.
    Here's the Lisbon Treaty. Which bit are you quoting?

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12007L/TXT
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
    I quote a german proffesor of constitutional matters you quote wikapedia....sorry ball still in your court
    I'm quoting the Treaty of Lisbon. And the Latvian government.
    No you quoted what Wikipedia says about them
    Abolition of the death penalty for ALL offences has been in place in all EU members for a decade.
    Apart from rioting, upheaval or in times of war....its in the lisbon treaty go read it
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,154
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    You should be overjoyed that the Treaty returned powers to nation states.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
    I quote a german proffesor of constitutional matters you quote wikapedia....sorry ball still in your court
    I'm quoting the Treaty of Lisbon. And the Latvian government.
    No you quoted what wikapedia says about them
    and lativia is irrelevant yes the may have given up the death penalty....that does not mean lisbon treaty bans it
    Maybe this will help you
    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-6-2008-2744-ASW_EN.html
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    edited February 2023
    I note two things about the disappearance of Nicola Bulley

    1) it’s disrespectful for people to visit the location and make TikTok videos at the llocation and
    2) it’s ok for channel 5 to have an hour long programme about said mystery, presumably with bits filmed in the location.

    And one extra one - she’s an attractive white woman, so has caught the national attention. See also Sarah Everard.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    Sean_F said:


    B

    The problem is that the Tory Party has lost any sense of right and wrong.

    Obviously the death penalty is wrong - giving a referendum on it would be despicable. But it's not about that anymore, they don't take a stand on anything. If they can get a few votes in the short term they will do it.

    This lot need to be junked and junked in a big way. For the first time I am convinced we need a Labour landslide.

    For the first time I am convinced we are getting one.
    Totally irrational.

    You are 'convinced' we are getting one because someone has challenged the fact that we might not be getting one.

    This is @Gardenwalker lashing out because his neocortex is fighting with his brain stem.
    Your team may well win, come the election. At the moment the evidence is not pointing to that result.

    However there are two years to go, there might be any number of black swan events and you have Lee Anderson and a capital punishment referendum to temp the voters.
    I don't believe there is any prospect of the Conservatives winning the next election.

    But, it makes perfect sense for them to persuade their core voters to turn out. 33% of the vote and 230 or so seats is perfectly achievable, but it won't be achieved by trying to appeal to Orange Bookers.
    What if... as with Brexit they take the gamble, surprisingly win round one convincingly with re-election (circa 2015) and then lose the referendum? This is a decision for our sovereign parliament.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited February 2023

    I note two things about the disappearance of Nicola Bulley

    1) it’s disrespectful for people to visit the location and make TikTok videos a bad the like and
    2) it’s ok for channel 5 to have an hour long programme about said mystery, presumably with bits filmed in the location.

    And one extra one - she’s an attractive white woman, so has caught the national attention. See also Sarah Everard.

    Do you think the fact she's a white woman makes any difference to the coverage? I wouldn't have thought so.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    I don't think so:

    "The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and two widely adopted protocols of the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe, and is thus considered a central value."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
    Go argue with the german professor who disagrees with you
    You go and argue with the EU, and maybe with Latvia too. Latvia abolished the death penalty for wartime in 2012, four years AFTER Lisbon.
    I quote a german proffesor of constitutional matters you quote wikapedia....sorry ball still in your court
    I'm quoting the Treaty of Lisbon. And the Latvian government.
    Here's the Lisbon Treaty. Which bit are you quoting?

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12007L/TXT
    See @kamski's post just now.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    Just saw this which I must have missed earlier:

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1624006854471712768?s=46&t=j-gfyJA-pXzrYteCFAM80A

    Wilmington, Sutton-at-Hone and Hawley (Dartford) council by-election result:

    CON: 69.0% (+18.1)
    LAB: 24.3% (+10.8)
    GRN: 6.7% (+6.7)

    No Ind (-18.6) and UKIP (-16.9) as prev.

    Votes cast: 1,171

    Conservative HOLD.

    On the surface a stunning Tory success against the run of play. But the previous Independent was an ultra Brexiteer who stood for the Tories this time and, well, UKIP are UKIP. So in one of the most right wing council wards in the country the Tory-UKIP-RWIndy went from 50.9+18.6+16.9=86.4% to 69%, and Lab-Grn went from 13.5% to 31%.

    So a bigger right-left swing than West Lancs.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Andy_JS said:

    I note two things about the disappearance of Nicola Bulley

    1) it’s disrespectful for people to visit the location and make TikTok videos a bad the like and
    2) it’s ok for channel 5 to have an hour long programme about said mystery, presumably with bits filmed in the location.

    And one extra one - she’s an attractive white woman, so has caught the national attention. See also Sarah Everard.

    Do you think the fact she's a white woman is relevant?
    A bit yes, in terms of the media attention.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    You should be overjoyed that the Treaty returned powers to nation states.
    I am happy we are no longer bound so really dont care
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Professor Schachtschneider, explained that the undisclosed paragraph means on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty the DEATH PENALTY will be reintroduced to Europe. The Death Penalty will be applicable for the crimes of RIOTING, CIVIL UPHEAVAL and DURING WAR. (When are we not at war and who will define riot and upheaval?)

    Professor Schachtschneider made the point that this clause is particularly outrageous as it had been cleverly hidden in a footnote of a footnote and would not have been detected by anyone other than an exceptional expert

    The EU not-a-Constitution reintroduces the death penalty and not only in times of war, but for riots or upheaval. That gives governments a pretty free hand to use the death penalty - strikes, protests, vote of no confidence in the ruling party.

    Belarus is the only European nation with the death penalty still legally in force. Russia has de facto abolished it, though not de jure.
    You mean russia has abolished it as long as you dont stand too near windows
    No EU member still has the death penalty. Latvia was the last to abolish it for wartime, in 2012.
    The eu is quite happy for people to reintroduce it.
    You should be overjoyed that the Treaty returned powers to nation states.
    So mandatory death penalty for UX design is ok?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Andy_JS said:

    I note two things about the disappearance of Nicola Bulley

    1) it’s disrespectful for people to visit the location and make TikTok videos a bad the like and
    2) it’s ok for channel 5 to have an hour long programme about said mystery, presumably with bits filmed in the location.

    And one extra one - she’s an attractive white woman, so has caught the national attention. See also Sarah Everard.

    Do you think the fact she's a white woman makes any difference to the coverage? I wouldn't have thought so.
    It might be a stretch, and it’s down to the seemingly baffling aspects (if she fell in and drowned, she ought to have been found by now). But it reminds me a bit of other events.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I note two things about the disappearance of Nicola Bulley

    1) it’s disrespectful for people to visit the location and make TikTok videos a bad the like and
    2) it’s ok for channel 5 to have an hour long programme about said mystery, presumably with bits filmed in the location.

    And one extra one - she’s an attractive white woman, so has caught the national attention. See also Sarah Everard.

    Do you think the fact she's a white woman makes any difference to the coverage? I wouldn't have thought so.
    It might be a stretch, and it’s down to the seemingly baffling aspects (if she fell in and drowned, she ought to have been found by now). But it reminds me a bit of other events.
    Why are the Police so certain she "fell" into the river? She fell so suddenly that her mobile was found on a bench?
  • Depeche Mode.

    They are fucking good.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    One building standing in Kahramanmaras: The Chamber of Civil Engineers
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1624064349437415424

    There will probably be some long hard looks at building regulations after the disaster in Turkey.
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