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Biden edges up to become WH2024 betting favourite – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    Hard to think of anything built in the concrete and glass era that's pleasing, rather than impressive.

    Also hard to think of a city where cars and highways are an adornment, rather than a source of noise, ugliness and division. Maybe necessary for some functions, but to be kept out of the way. Like toilets.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,392
    edited February 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    ydoethur said:

    nico679 said:

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Taz said:

    Why is photo ID needed? What issue is it solving beyond disenfranchising voters?

    I’ve seen this as a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There is no evidence of large scale voter fraud.
    One stolen vote is one too many if it's your vote.
    Sledgehammer and nut.

    How many people claim their vote was stolen at the last GE? How many people are going to have their vote effectively stolen by these measures?

    I could argue that one night-time house burglary was one too many. How about we introduce a blanket night curfew to stop them?
    Don't know about the first one, but the second is zero.
    Here we go,

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-views-and-research/our-research/electoral-fraud-data/2019-electoral-fraud-data

    Over all the many elections of 2019, 1 conviction and 1 caution for using someone else's vote. And both cases involving a relative, curiously enough.

    Which given the risk of either claiming the vote of somebody who was voted, or a voter turning up wanting to use their vote later, is probably a fair measure of the scale of the problem.

    The government's plans are a bad solution looking for a problem.
    SFAICS this awful plan secures an already pretty secure polling booth, while leaving wide open possible fraud by the insecure postal vote.

    It could be a preemptive prelude to restricting postal votes (which would be welcome).
    If so, it's a stupid one. Why not just restrict postal votes?

    I would have said it's more likely a prelude to introducing formal ID cards.
    I have no problem with ID cards and this should have been done years ago. It’s not controversial in other European countries . An issue in the UK is the lack of confidence in the government protecting your personal details .
    Well, yes.

    And it is a well founded lack of confidence.

    If we had the Estonian system I would be fully in favour of ID cards but we won't because our lot would never countenance it. So I'm against them.
    The lack of confidence in an ID card scheme is related to the objective fact that last time the government tried to U.K. I’m ok event an ID all the lunatics in the system crawled out.

    And designed a system to link all your personal data together in an easy to steal from system. With access given to everyone in government. So the chap investigating bin misusage would have access to your medical records and tax data.

    So insane was this, that the lunatics added a special category for VIPs who would have their data specially sequestered. VIP = politicians, the lunatics, their friends they nominated*….

    Lack of confidence. No, it’s total confidence that given another go, the same shit show will be repeated.

    *Yes, really
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,392

    ydoethur said:

    nico679 said:

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Taz said:

    Why is photo ID needed? What issue is it solving beyond disenfranchising voters?

    I’ve seen this as a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There is no evidence of large scale voter fraud.
    One stolen vote is one too many if it's your vote.
    Sledgehammer and nut.

    How many people claim their vote was stolen at the last GE? How many people are going to have their vote effectively stolen by these measures?

    I could argue that one night-time house burglary was one too many. How about we introduce a blanket night curfew to stop them?
    Don't know about the first one, but the second is zero.
    Here we go,

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-views-and-research/our-research/electoral-fraud-data/2019-electoral-fraud-data

    Over all the many elections of 2019, 1 conviction and 1 caution for using someone else's vote. And both cases involving a relative, curiously enough.

    Which given the risk of either claiming the vote of somebody who was voted, or a voter turning up wanting to use their vote later, is probably a fair measure of the scale of the problem.

    The government's plans are a bad solution looking for a problem.
    SFAICS this awful plan secures an already pretty secure polling booth, while leaving wide open possible fraud by the insecure postal vote.

    It could be a preemptive prelude to restricting postal votes (which would be welcome).
    If so, it's a stupid one. Why not just restrict postal votes?

    I would have said it's more likely a prelude to introducing formal ID cards.
    I have no problem with ID cards and this should have been done years ago. It’s not controversial in other European countries . An issue in the UK is the lack of confidence in the government protecting your personal details .
    Well, yes.

    And it is a well founded lack of confidence.

    If we had the Estonian system I would be fully in favour of ID cards but we won't because our lot would never countenance it. So I'm against them.
    The lack of confidence in an ID card scheme is related to the objective fact that last time the government tried to U.K. I’m ok event an ID all the lunatics in the system crawled out.

    And designed a system to link all your personal data together in an easy to steal from system. With access given to everyone in government. So the chap investigating bin misusage would have access to your medical records and tax data.

    So insane was this, that the lunatics added a special category for VIPs who would have their data specially sequestered. VIP = politicians, the lunatics, their friends they nominated*….

    Lack of confidence. No, it’s total confidence that given another go, the same shit show will be repeated.

    *Yes, really
    Uhhhh...
  • ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
  • Andy_JS said:

    The pride of Basildon, Depeche Mode, have released their new single today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyrLRixMs8

    Didn't realise there were only 2 of them now.
    Unfortunately, Andy Fletcher died last May.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,392

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
    We had that at Aberystwyth too, although truthfully at Penglais it's more a 'charming original wing' (Cledwyn/Pantycelyn) on the ugly modern rest of it (Penglais, Llandinam, Hugh Owen, Edward Llwyd, IMAPS).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Biden administration announces $2B loan for electric vehicle battery manufacturing

    https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/3851596-biden-administration-announces-2b-loan-for-electric-vehicle-battery-manufacturing/
    … Lombardo joins other Republican governors who have celebrated climate-friendly manufacturing coming to their home state despite the party’s continued support for fossil fuels. ..

    Biden got quite lucky with the timing of the EV transition, and he’s managing to combine good policy with good politics.

    Contrast that to our limp-wristed bullshit.
    And that’s just a materials recycling plant.
    https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    mwadams said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky: Nadine Dorries not standing at next election

    Those loud bangs everywhere were either fireworks or champagne corks.

    Respect to her for going back as a nurse during Covid, but otherwise she hasn't been an asset to national life.
    Do we have a "standing down" list somewhere?
    Yes. Towards the bottom. She's already on there.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    15 Tories have announced that they are baling out voluntarily in the last 5 months. None from Labour since 5th September.
    Pension wise, is it not better to bail out involuntarily?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited February 2023
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
    We had that at Aberystwyth too, although truthfully at Penglais it's more a 'charming original wing' (Cledwyn/Pantycelyn) on the ugly modern rest of it (Penglais, Llandinam, Hugh Owen, Edward Llwyd, IMAPS).
    The incongruous new Student Union frontage on Park Place in Cardiff is an awful monstrosity. Worse than the 1970s building it replaced. Why do they do this?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    nico679 said:

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Taz said:

    Why is photo ID needed? What issue is it solving beyond disenfranchising voters?

    I’ve seen this as a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There is no evidence of large scale voter fraud.
    One stolen vote is one too many if it's your vote.
    Sledgehammer and nut.

    How many people claim their vote was stolen at the last GE? How many people are going to have their vote effectively stolen by these measures?

    I could argue that one night-time house burglary was one too many. How about we introduce a blanket night curfew to stop them?
    Don't know about the first one, but the second is zero.
    Here we go,

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-views-and-research/our-research/electoral-fraud-data/2019-electoral-fraud-data

    Over all the many elections of 2019, 1 conviction and 1 caution for using someone else's vote. And both cases involving a relative, curiously enough.

    Which given the risk of either claiming the vote of somebody who was voted, or a voter turning up wanting to use their vote later, is probably a fair measure of the scale of the problem.

    The government's plans are a bad solution looking for a problem.
    SFAICS this awful plan secures an already pretty secure polling booth, while leaving wide open possible fraud by the insecure postal vote.

    It could be a preemptive prelude to restricting postal votes (which would be welcome).
    If so, it's a stupid one. Why not just restrict postal votes?

    I would have said it's more likely a prelude to introducing formal ID cards.
    I have no problem with ID cards and this should have been done years ago. It’s not controversial in other European countries . An issue in the UK is the lack of confidence in the government protecting your personal details .
    Well, yes.

    And it is a well founded lack of confidence.

    If we had the Estonian system I would be fully in favour of ID cards but we won't because our lot would never countenance it. So I'm against them.
    The lack of confidence in an ID card scheme is related to the objective fact that last time the government tried to U.K. I’m ok event an ID all the lunatics in the system crawled out.

    And designed a system to link all your personal data together in an easy to steal from system. With access given to everyone in government. So the chap investigating bin misusage would have access to your medical records and tax data.

    So insane was this, that the lunatics added a special category for VIPs who would have their data specially sequestered. VIP = politicians, the lunatics, their friends they nominated*….

    Lack of confidence. No, it’s total confidence that given another go, the same shit show will be repeated.

    *Yes, really
    Uhhhh...
    Bloody phone etc.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    I lost my girlfriend at the check-in desk at Helsinki Airport.

    She disappeared into FinnAir.

    Trying to get @ydoethur to restore your right to vote ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,635
    edited February 2023
    Nigelb said:

    I lost my girlfriend at the check-in desk at Helsinki Airport.

    She disappeared into FinnAir.

    Trying to get @ydoethur to restore your right to vote ?
    He's just jealous about my subtle puns.

    Who can forget my recent effort which literally went over the head of some PBers?

    'I know it's a long shot but does anyone know what a trebuchet is?'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
  • I lost my girlfriend at the check-in desk at Helsinki Airport.

    She disappeared into FinnAir.

    Punning like that and you'll end up getting captured by SAS.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    I lost my girlfriend at the check-in desk at Helsinki Airport.

    She disappeared into FinnAir.

    Trying to get @ydoethur to restore your right to vote ?
    He's just jealous about my subtle puns.

    Who can forget my recent effort which literally went over the head of some PBers?

    'I know it's a long shot but does anyone know what a trebuchet does?'
    On balance, I’ll resist taking a swing at it.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    rcs1000 said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Taz said:

    Why is photo ID needed? What issue is it solving beyond disenfranchising voters?

    I’ve seen this as a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There is no evidence of large scale voter fraud.
    One stolen vote is one too many if it's your vote.
    Sledgehammer and nut.

    How many people claim their vote was stolen at the last GE? How many people are going to have their vote effectively stolen by these measures?

    I could argue that one night-time house burglary was one too many. How about we introduce a blanket night curfew to stop them?
    Don't know about the first one, but the second is zero.
    Here we go,

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-views-and-research/our-research/electoral-fraud-data/2019-electoral-fraud-data

    Over all the many elections of 2019, 1 conviction and 1 caution for using someone else's vote. And both cases involving a relative, curiously enough.

    Which given the risk of either claiming the vote of somebody who was voted, or a voter turning up wanting to use their vote later, is probably a fair measure of the scale of the problem.

    The government's plans are a bad solution looking for a problem.
    Then why did the Electoral Commission recommend it?
    Here's their report on the matter:

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/id-needed-polling-stations-recommends-independent-watchdog

    Quoting from the press release,

    Evidence collected by the Commission in its review of electoral fraud revealed that fraud is not widespread in the UK but, despite this, a significant proportion of the public remain concerned that it is taking place.
    Exactly so - the electoral system needs to be not only secure, but needs to be seen to be secure.

    I mean, the politicians could say to the people "your concerns are misplaced, so we're going to ignore you", which historically has tended to be not particularly successful.
    Can I be candid?

    Your attitude sickens me.

    There are things we could do that would completely eliminate personation, while not raising the burden of voting. (Such as taking polaroids of people who don't have ID. Or putting aside the votes of people without, and they can be checked later in the event the result was close.)

    But a blanket requirement for ID imposes no burden on one group of people (those who drive and have a driving license), while imposing a significant burden on those who don't.

    Claims that "oh filling in this form isn't very difficult" are completely beside the point. They increase the burden on voting for people who are younger and poorer to solve a problem that there is scant evidence exists.

    It stinks, frankly, not of some attempt to secure the voting system, but of an attempt to play it for partisan advantage.


    And, look, I'm right of center. But the democratic


    system is so much more important than winning. Once you start making changes for partisan


    reasons to restrict the ability of people who might vote a certain way, well, you're on a long and slippery slope.
    One of the finest PB posts for a long, long time. Deserves everyone of its 19 likes, and more.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    mwadams said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky: Nadine Dorries not standing at next election

    Those loud bangs everywhere were either fireworks or champagne corks.

    Respect to her for going back as a nurse during Covid, but otherwise she hasn't been an asset to national life.
    Do we have a "standing down" list somewhere?
    Yes. Towards the bottom. She's already on there.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    15 Tories have announced that they are baling out voluntarily in the last 5 months. None from Labour since 5th September.
    Pension wise, is it not better to bail out involuntarily?
    Yep but depends on their age - so if you are 6x at the next election you don’t need to stand and lose. https://www.mypcpfpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/change-guide.pdf
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
    We had that at Aberystwyth too, although truthfully at Penglais it's more a 'charming original wing' (Cledwyn/Pantycelyn) on the ugly modern rest of it (Penglais, Llandinam, Hugh Owen, Edward Llwyd, IMAPS).
    The premise that 19th century is the ideal city though. The Victorians smashed up and uglified London and the industrial cities of Britain no end. Lewisham had rows of timbered Elizabethan shops before they moved in with their shovels. 18th century and early 19th up to about 1840 OK, then it went downhill.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    edited February 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
    Or more or less any hospital that originates before 1948. My hospital has a Georgian wing opposite a 1950s block with a 1980s concrete bunker attached and a 5 year old new Emergency dept. Architecturally awful, and yet a living building evolving alongside the NHS itself. Architecture should not be fossilised at any moment of time.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Nigelb said:


    Hope you all caught the Kemi interview. Confirmed my suspicions.

    Ladies and gentlemen we have the new Liz Truss.

    Missed it.
    Do explain.
    This one I presume.
    AfaIcs Kemi’s ‘not Liz Truss’ rep rests largely on her not looking or sounding glaikit while spouting the same reality avoiding ideology driven guff.



    https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1623644620423933953?s=61&t=dONW3y-dC_bT_QOE9yYyMQ

    Jesus wept. What an ill-informed twit. Where do they find these clowns?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
    Goodhart Building, Univ. Ugh.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,392

    Nigelb said:

    I lost my girlfriend at the check-in desk at Helsinki Airport.

    She disappeared into FinnAir.

    Trying to get @ydoethur to restore your right to vote ?
    He's just jealous about my subtle puns.

    Who can forget my recent effort which literally went over the head of some PBers?

    'I know it's a long shot but does anyone know what a trebuchet is?'
    Are you trying to catapult yourself out of the doldrums?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I lost my girlfriend at the check-in desk at Helsinki Airport.

    She disappeared into FinnAir.

    Trying to get @ydoethur to restore your right to vote ?
    He's just jealous about my subtle puns.

    Who can forget my recent effort which literally went over the head of some PBers?

    'I know it's a long shot but does anyone know what a trebuchet is?'
    Are you trying to catapult yourself out of the doldrums?
    Isn’t that trading a fair wind for a foul?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    Nigelb said:
    A camera was smuggled into the weekly meeting of the Conservative Growth Group


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
    Or more or less any hospital that originates before 1948. My hospital has a Georgian wing opposite a 1950s block with a 1980s concrete bunker attached and a 5 year old new Emergency dept. Architecturally awful, and yet a living building evolving alongside the NHS itself. Architecture should not be fossilised at any moment of time.
    The problem is immortalising the crap. Alexander Fleming House was the poster child for sick building syndrome. But hey, let’s preserve it. And give it an architectural award. Because it was designed by a Good Chap.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    West Lancashire, election forecast:

    Britain Elects forecast was quite accurate in Chester I recall. This is their prediction for tonight in West Lancs. Sounds about right to me.

    LAB: 63% (+11)
    CON: 26% (-10)
    REF: 5% (+5)
    GRN: 4% (+2)
    LDEM: 3% (-2)

    via Britain Predicts
    sotn.newstatesman.com/2023/02/conser…
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
    Or more or less any hospital that originates before 1948. My hospital has a Georgian wing opposite a 1950s block with a 1980s concrete bunker attached and a 5 year old new Emergency dept. Architecturally awful, and yet a living building evolving alongside the NHS itself. Architecture should not be fossilised at any moment of time.
    The problem is immortalising the crap. Alexander Fleming House was the poster child for sick building syndrome. But hey, let’s preserve it. And give it an architectural award. Because it was designed by a Good Chap.
    When old St George's Hospital at Hyde Park Corner (now the Lanesborough Hotel) was grade 1 listed, the listing covered everything including the 1970's portakabins. It took a while for the Duke of Westminster to get it sorted. He did though get 13 acres of Belgravia for £10 000 as the original deal was that if the site was no longer used as a hospital, then he could buy it back at the purchase price.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    "An anti-woke nightmare! Why the Fawlty Towers remake is a truly nauseating idea
    Stuart Heritage"

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/feb/08/why-the-fawlty-towers-remake-is-a-truly-nauseating-idea-john-cleese
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361
    TimS said:
    5am Monday morning? Presumably the release of some devastating Labour dossier on the Rt Hon. Dee Script, Minister of State for Paper Clips.

    Worse than poll rampers.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    Foxy said:

    West Lancashire, election forecast:

    Britain Elects forecast was quite accurate in Chester I recall. This is their prediction for tonight in West Lancs. Sounds about right to me.

    LAB: 63% (+11)
    CON: 26% (-10)
    REF: 5% (+5)
    GRN: 4% (+2)
    LDEM: 3% (-2)

    via Britain Predicts
    sotn.newstatesman.com/2023/02/conser…

    I'd suggest 12-15% as par swing for Labour, 10.5% would be a slight disappointment.
  • Foxy said:

    West Lancashire, election forecast:

    Britain Elects forecast was quite accurate in Chester I recall. This is their prediction for tonight in West Lancs. Sounds about right to me.

    LAB: 63% (+11)
    CON: 26% (-10)
    REF: 5% (+5)
    GRN: 4% (+2)
    LDEM: 3% (-2)

    via Britain Predicts
    sotn.newstatesman.com/2023/02/conser…

    Lib Dems targetting one ward strongly. Don't see their vote dropping much. Otherwise looks reasonable.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    A lot of truth in this IMO.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2023/02/america-oldest-shame-is-violence-racism-police-poverty

    "America’s oldest shame is violence, not racism
    Ideology alone does not explain police killings in the United States.
    By Tomiwa Owolade"
  • TimS said:
    5am Monday morning? Presumably the release of some devastating Labour dossier on the Rt Hon. Dee Script, Minister of State for Paper Clips.

    Worse than poll rampers.
    The evil Fran Chise, minister for rail privatisation?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Watching Question Time properly for the first time in about 10 years - because Matthew Syed is on the panel.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    Andy_JS said:

    A lot of truth in this IMO.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2023/02/america-oldest-shame-is-violence-racism-police-poverty

    "America’s oldest shame is violence, not racism
    Ideology alone does not explain police killings in the United States.
    By Tomiwa Owolade"

    Yes - as we were saying the other day, piles of guns aren’t the cause. There are societies with even more guns - but the violence is much lower.

    There are are societies with much worse race relations.

    I’ve had Americans describe to me the sense, when overseas of relaxing after a while. When they catch-up with the fact that an argument in a shop nearly certainly won’t escalate into gun violence. That the slightly crazy man shouting at pigeons won’t get shot by the police….
  • Thread:

    It is simply false to say that a GRC grants no additional rights. It’s false to say that it won’t matter in law. It’s false to say that the GRR bill which give access to a GRC to anyone who wants one will not effect the operation of the Equality Act.….

    Whether this is to be welcome as a good thing or criticised as a bad idea is separate to what the law does and would do under the GRR. It would be helpful if we could at least be clear about how the law operates and will change.


    https://twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1623734700354289667
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
    Or more or less any hospital that originates before 1948. My hospital has a Georgian wing opposite a 1950s block with a 1980s concrete bunker attached and a 5 year old new Emergency dept. Architecturally awful, and yet a living building evolving alongside the NHS itself. Architecture should not be fossilised at any moment of time.
    The problem is immortalising the crap. Alexander Fleming House was the poster child for sick building syndrome. But hey, let’s preserve it. And give it an architectural award. Because it was designed by a Good Chap.
    When old St George's Hospital at Hyde Park Corner (now the Lanesborough Hotel) was grade 1 listed, the listing covered everything including the 1970's portakabins. It took a while for the Duke of Westminster to get it sorted. He did though get 13 acres of Belgravia for £10 000 as the original deal was that if the site was no longer used as a hospital, then he could buy it back at the purchase price.
    Under Blair, I recall, they tried shutting a whole bunch of TA drill halls in London. There was much consternation when the idiots realised that the actual properties had been rented from the Duke of Westminster at peppercorn rates and reverted to him automatically when they stopped being used.

    Bit like the Albert Hall fiasco, really.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041
    Will we see the Countess of Swinton elected tonight?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    slade said:

    Will we see the Countess of Swinton elected tonight?

    What long overlooked Piano Concerto are we exploring as we wait for this Thursday nights results Slade?

    I can offer a very Un Skriabin like Rachmaninovesque Piano concerto from Skriabin.
    If any one likes the Rachmaninov concertos but yet to hear Skriabin youthful work.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F734PyD3NAw

    like someone like Schoenberg, Skriabin early work is also romantic tradition before moving into his own experimental musical universe. For me his later piano sonata work is the pinnacle of his career, very dreamy and otherworldly but with presence of dark and shadows.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj1luIOQHLw
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,828
    What is the future of the human species? Does the human species even have a future? We are the first generation (more or less) to understand the true purpose of our existence. Are there any highly educated societies where the fertility rate is above replacement level? The picture in Korea and Japan is extraordinary. The UK is catching up. It's been fashionable to think that humanity would end with a bang. Maybe it will be a whimper. It's surprising that we don't talk about this more.

    It is currently quite hard to see the trend reversing. The high cost of living, more singledom, lives lived in front of screens, high expectations. I hope I'll be looked after in my old age.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785

    What is the future of the human species? Does the human species even have a future? We are the first generation (more or less) to understand the true purpose of our existence. Are there any highly educated societies where the fertility rate is above replacement level? The picture in Korea and Japan is extraordinary. The UK is catching up. It's been fashionable to think that humanity would end with a bang. Maybe it will be a whimper. It's surprising that we don't talk about this more.

    It is currently quite hard to see the trend reversing. The high cost of living, more singledom, lives lived in front of screens, high expectations. I hope I'll be looked after in my old age.

    A ChatGPT-enabled bot will dribble baby-food into your mouth and utter platitudes. For a fee. It'll be fine.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041

    slade said:

    Will we see the Countess of Swinton elected tonight?

    What long overlooked Piano Concerto are we exploring as we wait for this Thursday nights results Slade?

    I can offer a very Un Skriabin like Rachmaninovesque Piano concerto from Skriabin.
    If any one likes the Rachmaninov concertos but yet to hear Skriabin youthful work.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F734PyD3NAw

    like someone like Schoenberg, Skriabin early work is also romantic tradition before moving into his own experimental musical universe. For me his later piano sonata work is the pinnacle of his career, very dreamy and otherworldly but with presence of dark and shadows.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj1luIOQHLw
    I keep going back to Bortkiewicz to find new insights.
  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174

    What is the future of the human species? Does the human species even have a future? We are the first generation (more or less) to understand the true purpose of our existence. Are there any highly educated societies where the fertility rate is above replacement level? The picture in Korea and Japan is extraordinary. The UK is catching up. It's been fashionable to think that humanity would end with a bang. Maybe it will be a whimper. It's surprising that we don't talk about this more.

    It is currently quite hard to see the trend reversing. The high cost of living, more singledom, lives lived in front of screens, high expectations. I hope I'll be looked after in my old age.

    Are you teasing? You say you belong to a generation that more or less understands the true purpose of our species's existence, but you don't say what it is. What is it? :-)

    I don't believe it's either to pass down our genes or to hand over to self-programming computers. I can't think of any other new answers that have been offered recently though. And maybe the question was wrong.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041
    Con gain in Denbighshire due to PC and Ind intervention.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    What is the future of the human species?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Naked_Sun
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    slade said:

    Con gain in Denbighshire due to PC and Ind intervention.

    Any type of gain for the Tories in present circumstances is pretty notable.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    slade said:

    Con gain in Denbighshire due to PC and Ind intervention.

    How exactly did they intervene?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Rhyl Ty Newydd (Denbighshire) council by-election result:

    CON: 40.1% (-0.5)
    LAB: 38.8% (-20.7)
    PC: 12.0% (+12.0)
    IND: 8.6% (+8.6)
    LDEM: 0.6% (+0.6)

    Votes cast: 841

    Conservative GAIN from Labour.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Only lost because of changes elsewhere, but interesting there was no conservative collapse.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Full figures from Britain Elects:

    "Rhyl Ty Newydd (Denbighshire) council by-election result:

    CON: 40.1% (-0.5)
    LAB: 38.8% (-20.7)
    PC: 12.0% (+12.0)
    IND: 8.6% (+8.6)
    LDEM: 0.6% (+0.6)

    Votes cast: 841

    Conservative GAIN from Labour."
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    carnforth said:

    Only lost because of changes elsewhere, but interesting there was no conservative collapse.

    Yes. Conservatives kept same % of vote as labour fell by 20% - no reason why they shouldn’t have stuck with Labour rather than tempted elsewhere was there?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Off Topic

    Watching Julie Etchingham's police expose, Women and the Police, the inside story. Wow, we are in a bad state when serving police officer's have nicknames like "Rapey", "Kissy" and "Dave the Rapist". Not just the Met, it's across the country.

    The culture for serving police women appears dreadful, particularly younger officers, who appear to be routinely sexualy assaulted by their male colleagues, and the culprits are protected by the hierarchy. Complainants on the other hand are ostracised and moved on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Boris to contest Mid Beds at the next general election?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Andy_JS said:

    Boris to contest Mid Beds at the next general election?

    Good call!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    carnforth said:

    Only lost because of changes elsewhere, but interesting there was no conservative collapse.

    “Only lost because of changes elsewhere”

    Yes I understand. How it actually works is if even one of the candidates who enticed Labours votes away from them had the best titties in town, and offered gropes for votes, there’s no reason why you can’t have your gropes and still vote how you like on the day. They must have liked her policies.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    carnforth said:

    Only lost because of changes elsewhere, but interesting there was no conservative collapse.

    “Only lost because of changes elsewhere”

    Yes I understand. How it actually works is if even one of the candidates who enticed Labours votes away from them had the best titties in town, and offered gropes for votes, there’s no reason why you can’t have your gropes and still vote how you like on the day. They must have liked her policies.
    What are you on about? Silly Billy.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    edited February 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    Boris to contest Mid Beds at the next general election?

    Good call!
    [deleted] the most stupidest thing I’ve ever posted.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    I wonder what Boris's excuse will be for leaving Uxbridge, lol.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041
    The Countess wins. Big Lib Dem victory in North Yorkshire, The Black Sheep Brewery is in good hands.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    carnforth said:

    Only lost because of changes elsewhere, but interesting there was no conservative collapse.

    “Only lost because of changes elsewhere”

    Yes I understand. How it actually works is if even one of the candidates who enticed Labours votes away from them had the best titties in town, and offered gropes for votes, there’s no reason why you can’t have your gropes and still vote how you like on the day. They must have liked her policies.
    What are you on about? Silly Billy.
    Still can’t resist reading my post, Nando’s. But you still have no understanding of how politics works, have you?

    The psephological princess I am I have explained exactly how Labour have lost tonight. Labour had votes enticed away from them because voters genuinely preferred the policy platform of another candidate.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I wonder what Boris's excuse will be for leaving Uxbridge, lol.

    He'll just make up a lie, he's good at that
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041
    LD gain in Cheltenham. A ward they have never won before.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
    That's why it left such an impression.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    edited February 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    I wonder what Boris's excuse will be for leaving Uxbridge, lol.

    He'll just make up a lie, he's good at that
    We know that. But which lie?

    We ought to turn it into a completion, whoever is closest wins.

    I’ll go with closer to wife’s parents so handy for child care.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    carnforth said:

    Only lost because of changes elsewhere, but interesting there was no conservative collapse.

    “Only lost because of changes elsewhere”

    Yes I understand. How it actually works is if even one of the candidates who enticed Labours votes away from them had the best titties in town, and offered gropes for votes…
    I think that would likely be illegal.

    Though granted voting for tits, and indeed electing them, is a very longstanding tradition.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
    Cheap telly, and it worked better than the snooker in monchrome.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
    Cheap telly, and it worked better than the snooker in monchrome.
    Snooker on a monochrome set would just be nothing but balls.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
    Cheap telly, and it worked better than the snooker in monchrome.
    I may be misremembering, but sometimes it ran instead of children’s TV.
    And outside broadcasts wouldn’t have been that cheap to set up back then.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    Nigelb said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
    Cheap telly, and it worked better than the snooker in monchrome.
    I may be misremembering, but sometimes it ran instead of children’s TV.
    And outside broadcasts wouldn’t have been that cheap to set up back then.
    If this is not a wind up and they actually televised some TUC Conference live, I think I can guess why - the BBC unions would strike if the management don’t do it.

    Or showing the big Union politburo meeting was actually a right wing plot to destroy the Union movement.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    slade said:

    The Countess wins. Big Lib Dem victory in North Yorkshire, The Black Sheep Brewery is in good hands.

    The Liberal Democrats candidate Felicity Cunliffe-Lister has been elected with 1,349 votes for the vacant Masham and Fountains county division.

    Brooke Victoria Hull (Conservative Party) received 801 votes.

    There were a total of 15 spoilt votes.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Nigelb said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
    Cheap telly, and it worked better than the snooker in monchrome.
    I may be misremembering, but sometimes it ran instead of children’s TV.
    And outside broadcasts wouldn’t have been that cheap to set up back then.
    That is probably true. Quite often one would see a dozen of those big Bedford Outside Broadcast trucks at such an event, staff and trailing cables everywhere. Of course we didn't have daytime TV, save for the test card, and everything closed down after the national anthem at 11pm, So a firebrand speech by Jack Jones was something of a treat.

    Perhaps our parents generation were better engaged. I remember as a kid, Len Murray, Mick McGahey, Hugh Scanlon and Clive Jenkins were household names. And now the only regional voice we hear is 30p Lee.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    Nigelb said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
    Cheap telly, and it worked better than the snooker in monchrome.
    I may be misremembering, but sometimes it ran instead of children’s TV.
    And outside broadcasts wouldn’t have been that cheap to set up back then.
    That is probably true. Quite often one would see a dozen of those big Bedford Outside Broadcast trucks at such an event, staff and trailing cables everywhere. Of course we didn't have daytime TV, save for the test card, and everything closed down after the national anthem at 11pm, So a firebrand speech by Jack Jones was something of a treat.

    Perhaps our parents generation were better engaged. I remember as a kid, Len Murray, Mick McGahey, Hugh Scanlon and Clive Jenkins were household names. And now the only regional voice we hear is 30p Lee.
    Ha ha ha, Nope. You are trying to mug us off here arn’t you?

    As usual.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    slade said:

    The Countess wins. Big Lib Dem victory in North Yorkshire, The Black Sheep Brewery is in good hands.

    The Liberal Democrats candidate Felicity Cunliffe-Lister has been elected with 1,349 votes for the vacant Masham and Fountains county division.

    Brooke Victoria Hull (Conservative Party) received 801 votes.

    There were a total of 15 spoilt votes.




    Great night.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
    I'm convinced TV was better when there were only 4 channels, ie. from 1982 to 1997.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited February 2023
    Was the swing in West Lancs enough for a Labour majority overall? Not sure.

    Lab +10.2%
    Con -10.9%
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The 20th century city surely isn't quite as bad as this article makes out.

    "The urban ideal is a 19th-century city with 21st-century enhancements
    We now realise that cars, concrete and commuting ruined cities in the 20th century
    Simon Kuper"

    https://www.ft.com/content/aab18912-9b07-478f-a6a4-d09f9532f8b4

    You've never been to Gloucester, Coventry, Cannock, Warwick, Walsall, Dudley, Telford, Birmingham, Stoke?

    Gloucester and Warwick are especially painful because the ghastly concrete monstrosities are next too, and completely spoil, some genuinely charming Georgian and Victorian buildings.
    Or, more painfully still, the "ugly modern wing" phenomenon at Oxbridge colleges.
    Or more or less any hospital that originates before 1948. My hospital has a Georgian wing opposite a 1950s block with a 1980s concrete bunker attached and a 5 year old new Emergency dept. Architecturally awful, and yet a living building evolving alongside the NHS itself. Architecture should not be fossilised at any moment of time.
    The problem is immortalising the crap. Alexander Fleming House was the poster child for sick building syndrome. But hey, let’s preserve it. And give it an architectural award. Because it was designed by a Good Chap.
    When old St George's Hospital at Hyde Park Corner (now the Lanesborough Hotel) was grade 1 listed, the listing covered everything including the 1970's portakabins. It took a while for the Duke of Westminster to get it sorted. He did though get 13 acres of Belgravia for £10 000 as the original deal was that if the site was no longer used as a hospital, then he could buy it back at the purchase price.
    My father worked there in the 1970s. Apparently was quite the collection of artifacts in the basement, many of which would seriously freak out visitors.

    I was there a couple of months ago, for a rather lovely afternoon tea.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for the history experts.

    I was defending the In Place Of Strife attempt by Wilson, to my daughter (doing GCSE), on the basis that while it failed, it was (a) a genuine attempt at breaking the vicious (and worsening) cycle in industrial relations and (b) some of the ideas that came out of the failure formed the basis of modern, low conflict types of industrial relations.

    She says, no - just a failure.

    Thoughts?

    It depends how you frame the question.
    Had Castle had full cabinet backing, then it might indeed have been a remarkably successful piece of legislation (and its ideas did find their way into later laws).
    But given the makeup of the then Labour party, it was pretty well inevitable that someone like Callaghan would run an effective internal campaign against it. And Wilson was never sufficiently brave, or committed to the idea, to resist that.

    It was certainly a genuine attempt by Castle.
    Was it Labour Left versus Labour pragmatists for Callaghan to hate it?
    More unions vs pragmatists, perhaps ?
    But I guess that’s not dissimilar.

    I was way too young to understand any of this at the time - but one thing I do recall from my subsequent seventies childhood was the extraordinary institutional strength of the unions.
    The (largely incomprehensible, and stultifyingly boring) TUC conference, for example, was broadcast live on TV for hours at a time.
    But you only had three channels! Why on earth would they want to do that?
    Cheap telly, and it worked better than the snooker in monchrome.
    I may be misremembering, but sometimes it ran instead of children’s TV.
    And outside broadcasts wouldn’t have been that cheap to set up back then.
    That is probably true. Quite often one would see a dozen of those big Bedford Outside Broadcast trucks at such an event, staff and trailing cables everywhere. Of course we didn't have daytime TV, save for the test card, and everything closed down after the national anthem at 11pm, So a firebrand speech by Jack Jones was something of a treat.

    Perhaps our parents generation were better engaged. I remember as a kid, Len Murray, Mick McGahey, Hugh Scanlon and Clive Jenkins were household names. And now the only regional voice we hear is 30p Lee.
    Ha ha ha, Nope. You are trying to mug us off here arn’t you?

    As usual.
    No, it’s true.
    And reasonable odds that Mexpete was more familiar with those than most of the cabinet.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    edited February 2023
    Foxy said:

    West Lancashire, election forecast:

    Britain Elects forecast was quite accurate in Chester I recall. This is their prediction for tonight in West Lancs. Sounds about right to me.

    LAB: 63% (+11)
    CON: 26% (-10)
    REF: 5% (+5)
    GRN: 4% (+2)
    LDEM: 3% (-2)

    via Britain Predicts
    sotn.newstatesman.com/2023/02/conser…

    Turns out to have been a very accurate prediction:

    Result

    LAB: 62.3% (+10.2)
    CON: 25.4% (-10.9)
    REF: 4.4% (+0.1)
    LDEM: 4.1% (-0.8)
    GRN: 2.9% (+0.5)
    MRLP: 0.9% (+0.9)

    Labour HOLD.

    This is based on the same MRP that has 138 Tory MPs after the next GE and 424 Labour.

    https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/11/britain-predicts-who-would-win-election-held-today
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    Only lost because of changes elsewhere, but interesting there was no conservative collapse.

    “Only lost because of changes elsewhere”

    Yes I understand. How it actually works is if even one of the candidates who enticed Labours votes away from them had the best titties in town, and offered gropes for votes…
    I think that would likely be illegal.

    Though granted voting for tits, and indeed electing them, is a very longstanding tradition.
    Not just potential electoral law breaking, but I’m saying as armchair student of electoral politics, I wouldn’t even expect it to work. Specifically wouldn’t expect the voting to exceed the groping.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    slade said:

    The Countess wins. Big Lib Dem victory in North Yorkshire, The Black Sheep Brewery is in good hands.

    The Liberal Democrats candidate Felicity Cunliffe-Lister has been elected with 1,349 votes for the vacant Masham and Fountains county division.

    Brooke Victoria Hull (Conservative Party) received 801 votes.

    There were a total of 15 spoilt votes.




    Great night.
    “There were a total of 15 spoilt votes.”

    That’s what we call votes for Labour in our part of the world.
This discussion has been closed.