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LAB moves to biggest R&W lead since Sunak became PM – politicalbetting.com

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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Andy_JS said:

    A 9% swing in 2 years isn't that difficult to imagine.

    Ever the optimist.
  • Foxy said:

    Isn't the reason for the scarcity and price of eggs down to bird flu rather than Brexit, or Ukraine or the KamiKwasi budget?

    Yes. I don't think anyone is claiming it's down to Brexit.
    I was wondering if all the eggs had been poached by the EU?
    We have had en-oeuf of eggsperts.
    Even Scotch eggsperts
  • I'm sure MoonRabbit can explain why these polls actually show Labour going backwards
  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    Foxy said:

    DJ41a said:

    Could Dominic Raab survive?

    He has a shorter shelf life than a Russian Mobik in Bakhmut.
    The Russian army is in Bakhmut already?

    On Raab, I hope he's sacked but wouldn't be so sure.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    Andy_JS said:

    A 9% swing in 2 years isn't that difficult to imagine.

    Hard to see Labour getting a 27% swing myself, but you may be right...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    Andy_JS said:

    A 9% swing in 2 years isn't that difficult to imagine.

    That would be a huge Labour lead. Mogg as pm?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    DJ41a said:

    Foxy said:

    DJ41a said:

    Could Dominic Raab survive?

    He has a shorter shelf life than a Russian Mobik in Bakhmut.
    The Russian army is in Bakhmut already?
    In shallow graves...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    29% with Deltapoll is of course the same as Labour got in 2010 when Brown got a hung parliament. So plenty still to play for

    Just watching the Tory %:

    2022 has given us 2 Tory polls in the 30s, a 30 and 31, both from Delta.

    February has given us the sequence 24, 22, 27, 24, 24.

    I think now you can only properly assess month to month not on weeks or part weeks, because if Opinium, Delta and Kantor had been only pollsters to report so far in February, it would have Tories averaging 29%

    Actually 24% is quite awful polling figure for a current average of last 5 polls - it’s not that far off what got Truss humiliatingly booted out. If Truss and her policies were such disaster, then what should be said about a PM polling very nearly exactly the same from an average of all polls over one month?
    The Tories were on only 19% with Truss with RedfieldWilton last October

    Without your cherry picking, the polling average of the Truss month probably isn’t so far from Sunak’s most recent month, is it?
    It is, the average was at least 5% lower

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
    No.



    Sunak is currently top of a square. The bottom of the square is 5%. The lowest ever Liz Dip is way off bottom of the square.

    Sunak is now only about 3% better than Truss at her worst on the measurement you have asked us to use.
    Wrong.

    Opinium had the Tories under Truss on 23%, now 29%. Redfield had the Tories on 19%, now 24%. Yougov had the Tories on 19%, now 24%. Omnisis now had the Tories on 22% now 24%. PeoplePolling had the Tories on 14% now 22%. Techne had the Tories on 22% now 27%. Deltapoll had the Tories on 25% now 29%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
    are you cherry picking? Why? We have ALL the polls here, averaged out. What more do you need?

    The graph shows average of pollsters over a long enough period to supply confidence, doesn’t it? It’s got all the polls on it, not just your favourite ones.

    The graph you linked shows Truss dipping out just 3% lower than where Sunak is now. Doesn’t it?

    Argue with the graph if you like, but it will tell you I’m right. The whole of the box is 5%. Sunak is now at top of the box, Truss at worse never averaged out right at bottom of the square.


    Of course, many more polls as bad as the

    February ones so far and the graph will be updated again so Sunak might be even closer


    than 3% to the worst of Truss.
    Cometh the hour.

    Cometh the leader.

    The one for Britain in our hour of need.

    Step forward Mary Elizabeth - matriarch and monarch.

    Some call her The Truss.

    To many, she is simply:

    ‘Liz’.

    I heard the interview. She really doesn't even have the most basic grasp of how the economy works. Like any school swot she revised her lines by rote and regurgitated them without any understanding.

    She is living proof that academic qualifications can be churned out without the foggiest idea of what anything actually means.
    How else could she be a fan of Minford ?
  • There's a very clear R&W downward trend in Tory support since about April 2022 which has continued under Sunak. They have been losing about 1% per month. It was masked by the Truss implosion and the recovery because Sunak isn't Truss, but the downward trend has since resumed on exactly the same trend line as before.

    You don't have to squint too hard to draw a trendline back to summer '21 and the peak of the vaccine bounce and the Boris blimp. There have been wobbles up (start of the war, end of Truss) and down (Partygate, the bonkers budget) but also a fairly steady 1 percent per month decline underlying that.

    And whilst that can be turned around, the clock is ticking.
    I remember saying here at the time to much piss taking from the Tory faithful that Johnson's popularity was as high then as it would ever be. I shortly after said Labour lead in the exact month it happened.
  • This really is the end days for the Tories now. This is heading for 1997 but worse.

    I still can't actually imagine it happening - but the polls are bad. If the best for the Tories is 17 points they are in trouble, deep deep trouble.
  • Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited February 2023
    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,828

    Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.

    We could still be the better part of two years away from an election. I wouldn't count on it just yet.
  • Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.

    We could still be the better part of two years away from an election. I wouldn't count on it just yet.
    Every day that passes, that becomes less and less likely.

    What exactly is Sunak going to find? The economy had started to recover in 2010, Labour still got kicked out.

    George Osborne said it best when he said that if the economy goes on your watch, your time is up. The Tories did it themselves.

    You can see desperation when they are attacking the Labour government of 13 YEARS AGO
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    29% with Deltapoll is of course the same as Labour got in 2010 when Brown got a hung parliament. So plenty still to play for

    Just watching the Tory %:

    2022 has given us 2 Tory polls in the 30s, a 30 and 31, both from Delta.

    February has given us the sequence 24, 22, 27, 24, 24.

    I think now you can only properly assess month to month not on weeks or part weeks, because if Opinium, Delta and Kantor had been only pollsters to report so far in February, it would have Tories averaging 29%

    Actually 24% is quite awful polling figure for a current average of last 5 polls - it’s not that far off what got Truss humiliatingly booted out. If Truss and her policies were such disaster, then what should be said about a PM polling very nearly exactly the same from an average of all polls over one month?
    The Tories were on only 19% with Truss with RedfieldWilton last October

    Without your cherry picking, the polling average of the Truss month probably isn’t so far from Sunak’s most recent month, is it?
    It is, the average was at least 5% lower

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
    No.



    Sunak is currently top of a square. The bottom of the square is 5%. The lowest ever Liz Dip is way off bottom of the square.

    Sunak is now only about 3% better than Truss at her worst on the measurement you have asked us to use.
    Wrong.

    Opinium had the Tories under Truss on 23%, now 29%. Redfield had the Tories on 19%, now 24%. Yougov had the Tories on 19%, now 24%. Omnisis now had the Tories on 22% now 24%. PeoplePolling had the Tories on 14% now 22%. Techne had the Tories on 22% now 27%. Deltapoll had the Tories on 25% now 29%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
    Wrong.

    The last Redfield under Truss had the Tories on 21%, not 19%.

    Of pollsters who have polled during both Truss's and Sunak's premierships, you have omitted:

    Savanta (Truss 25%, Sunak 26%)
    BMG (Truss 30%, Sunak 29%)
    Ipsos (Truss 26%, Sunak 26%)

    So now we have (Tory support%: Truss / Sunak / improvement)

    Opinium (23% / 29% / 6%)
    R&W (21% / 24% / 3%)
    Yougov (19% / 24% / 5%)
    Omnisis (22% / 24% / 2%)
    PeoplePolling (14% / 22% / 8%)
    Techne (22% / 27% / 5%)
    Deltapoll (25% / 29% / 4%)
    Savanta (25% / 26% / 1%)
    BMG (30% / 29% / -1%)
    Ipsos (26% / 26% / 0%)

    The differences are: 6%, 3%, 5%, 2%, 8%, 5%, 4%, 1%, -1%, and 0%.

    Which averages 3.3%. Sunak has increased Tory support by 3.3% over Truss at her worst.
    The last Redfield you are referring to was AFTER Truss had resigned and Sunak was already PM elect effectively anyway. Truss resigned on 20 October and it was taken on 23 October.


    The same applies to the Savanta you refer to taken on 21-23 Oct. So again taken AFTER Truss had resigned.

    The BMG you refer to was taken largely before the markets crashed after the mini budget. Even the Ipsos shows no change between Sunak and Truss.

    So none really show the Tories not doing significantly better under Sunak now than Truss did after the mini budget and before her resignation

    Now you just look silly.

    How does your 19% YouGov (20-21 Oct) qualify? Or your 25% DeltaPoll (22-23 Oct). Or your 22% Omnisis (21-22 Oct)?

    Tell you what, let's repeat the exercise only using the last Truss polls taken before 20 Oct.

    Now we get:

    Opinium (26% / 29% / 3%)
    R&W (19% / 24% / 5%)
    Yougov (23% / 24% / 1%)
    Omnisis (28% / 24% / -4%)
    PeoplePolling (19% / 22% / 3%)
    Techne (25% / 27% / 2%)
    Deltapoll (23% / 29% / 6%)
    Savanta (22% / 26% / 4%)
    BMG (30% / 29% / -1%)
    Ipsos (26% / 26% / 0%)

    That set (3, 5, 1, -4, 3, 2, 6, 4,-1, and 0) gives an average Tory vote share improvement under Sunak of, oh... only 1.9%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,932

    Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.

    A Labour lead of 41% to 32% if reflected in voteshare though would give a hung parliament on the new boundaries

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=32&LAB=41&LIB=9&Reform=5&Green=4&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=29.5&SCOTLIB=6.5&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=0&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=43&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019

    Cyclefree said:

    The Truss premiership was a horror show from start to finish.

    I never want to hear from her ever again.

    It was a horror show even before it began. Who can forget the jury being out on Macron?
    Whereas Sunak's sloppy Macron clinch has cost us millions of pounds worth of 'deal' which has yet to yield any noticeable decline in the numbers of small boats.
    You know, there are many universes where Truss is fucking abysmal AND Sunak is fucking abysmal.

    We live in one.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    Foxy said:

    Isn't the reason for the scarcity and price of eggs down to bird flu rather than Brexit, or Ukraine or the KamiKwasi budget?

    Yes. I don't think anyone is claiming it's down to Brexit.
    I was wondering if all the eggs had been poached by the EU?
    We have had en-oeuf of eggsperts.
    Omelette me think about that one for a minute.
  • HYUFD said:

    Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.

    A Labour lead of 41% to 32% if reflected in voteshare though would give a hung parliament on the new boundaries

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=32&LAB=41&LIB=9&Reform=5&Green=4&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=29.5&SCOTLIB=6.5&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=0&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=43&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
    So are you celebrating being kicked out of Government and having PR implemented now? Welcome to the party
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Hands up for LIZ TRUSS!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.

    We could still be the better part of two years away from an election. I wouldn't count on it just yet.
    Every day that passes, that becomes less and less likely.

    What exactly is Sunak going to find? The economy had started to recover in 2010, Labour still got kicked out.

    George Osborne said it best when he said that if the economy goes on your watch, your time is up. The Tories did it themselves.

    You can see desperation when they are attacking the Labour government of 13 YEARS AGO
    The economy was definitely improving by 1997. Must have been what saved Major. Oh...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.

    We could still be the better part of two years away from an election. I wouldn't count on it just yet.
    Every day that passes, that becomes less and less likely.

    What exactly is Sunak going to find? The economy had started to recover in 2010, Labour still got kicked out.

    George Osborne said it best when he said that if the economy goes on your watch, your time is up. The Tories did it themselves.

    You can see desperation when they are attacking the Labour government of 13 YEARS AGO
    No different in that respect - except it was even longer - from their 1997 campaign.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,932
    edited February 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.

    A Labour lead of 41% to 32% if reflected in voteshare though would give a hung parliament on the new boundaries

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=32&LAB=41&LIB=9&Reform=5&Green=4&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=29.5&SCOTLIB=6.5&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=0&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=43&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
    So are you celebrating being kicked out of Government and having PR implemented now? Welcome to the party
    PR also means no Labour majority again (which is why most newly elected Labour MPs won't be Turkeys that vote for Christmas given 41% under PR would deliver far less MPs for Labour than under FPTP). RefUK would win seats too
  • darkage said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    EPG said:

    pigeon said:

    Should people in Britain really be starving? I'm sure I saw a 1kg bag of rice going for 35p in Tesco not that long ago. Now you might be malnourished if you rely on that but actually starving? With the number of goods available it's possible that people aren't necessarily aware of what the cheapest staples are.

    Of course, once you've got your bag of rice you then need to pay for the energy to cook it.

    But the general point is taken. Compared to Michael Buerk's iconic images of skeletal children breathing their last on the barren plains of Ethiopia, who cares about the odd case of rickets here and there?
    With fewer than a hundred cases a year, yes, you can afford not to think about rickets. It certainly has next to nothing to do with inflation.
    The other relevant factor here is that the minimum wage has risen far faster than other wages. No one is pretending that life is easy for people at the bottom but in a lot of industries inflation outpacing wage increases has led to skilled jobs being paid at little more than the minimum wage. There was for instance the tik tok video of the single, 37 year old primary school teacher with 4 years experience pointing out that after his overheads are paid, he has £177 per month spending money, from a 33k per year job.... in Redcar.
    You’d want to know what the overheads were though, to judge.
    It was in the video.
    But roughly...
    Rent, bills, car, petrol, food, gym, netflix.
    600+300+300+150+400+50+25....

    He had a solution which was to go to dubai, pay no tax, have the same job with all your accommodation paid for you, and his disposable income rose from £177 to well over £1000 per month.
    So his disposable income is £177 + £50 + £25 = £252
    This type of attitude is exactly why there should be a general strike until pay in the public sector is corrected to account for historic inflation. People doing skilled work with lots of responsibility deserve to be paid properly, not sneered at for wanting to go to the gym.
    There is no sneering. Under no reasonable definition could gym membership and pay TV be considered essentials. They are discretionary spend. So yes they do get included in disposable income
  • I never bought the idea Sunak was a good politician, in fact I said it many many times here when people were saying he'd continue the Johnson Government into the 2030s.

    He's inexperienced and utterly out of his depth, that much is obvious.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.

    A Labour lead of 41% to 32% if reflected in voteshare though would give a hung parliament on the new boundaries

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=32&LAB=41&LIB=9&Reform=5&Green=4&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=29.5&SCOTLIB=6.5&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=0&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=43&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
    But it doesn’t work like that. Because of an in built PM bias in this measurement, it’s normally a surprise LOTO gets close or any slender lead on this rating - PM have lost despite being more popular than their party on this rating.

    Of more relevance, Starmer increasing his lead on this measurement is indicative of how Sunak is sliding.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer leads Sunak by 9%, his largest lead since Sunak became PM.

    At this moment, which of the following do British voters think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (5 Feb.)

    Keir Starmer 41% (–)
    Rishi Sunak 32% (-3)

    Changes +/- 29 Jan.

    Ah well, Tories can't even rely on this metric anymore.

    A Labour lead of 41% to 32% if reflected in voteshare though would give a hung parliament on the new boundaries

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=32&LAB=41&LIB=9&Reform=5&Green=4&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=29.5&SCOTLIB=6.5&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=0&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=43&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
    So are you celebrating being kicked out of Government and having PR implemented now? Welcome to the party
    PR also means no Labour majority again (which is why most newly elected Labour MPs won't vote for Christmas given 41% under PR would deliver far less MPs for Labour than under FPTP). RefUK would win seats too
    Very happy never having a Labour majority again. You're the one that seems to mind.
  • Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
  • Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Well the Tories tried to say he did, that seemed to fall on its face, big headline in the Mail a couple of weeks ago.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    I'm sure MoonRabbit can explain why these polls actually show Labour going backwards

    Here’s the chart that MoonRabbit is looking at.
    The topless lady is now lying on the bed! 😆

    I’m not the only psephologist here who can see the topless lady in the polling am I?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Hands-up all those expecting Sunak's shuffle/mini-shuffle to be an absolute masterpiece of shooting-oneself-in-the-foot. 🤚
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,932

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Foxy said:

    Isn't the reason for the scarcity and price of eggs down to bird flu rather than Brexit, or Ukraine or the KamiKwasi budget?

    Yes. I don't think anyone is claiming it's down to Brexit.
    I was wondering if all the eggs had been poached by the EU?
    We have had en-oeuf of eggsperts.
    Omelette me think about that one for a minute.
    You must be scrambling to think of puns.
  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
    Even the Mail has given up with this.

    When he went it was not a private school. Starmer is not able to time travel.
  • rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Roger said:

    DougSeal said:

    Roger said:

    I think we're beyond the point of worrying what anyone thinks about the opposition. As long as they're viable they'll do. Like any disaster the first job is to clear the debris.

    A pity SKS hasn't got the bottle to promise he'll reverse Brexit. He's well past the point of having to be cautious. The Tories are in such a state that if he wants a radical first term now would be a good time to put it on the table.

    Not again. You can't "reverse" Brexit. I wish people would stop using the phrase. You can apply to rejoin, sure, but that takes all 27 member states to agree (by no means a given) plus a long and possibly arduous accession negotiation. You and others like seem to think we can just say "sorry, all a mistake, let's 'reverse' and go back to 2015". It's too late for that. We're not Remainers anymore, we're Rejoiners.
    Barnier disagrees.....

    But even if you're half right now would be a good time to set out some reasonable conditions that if met would mean we could apply to rejoin in all humility and assume our rightful place at the heart of Europe. There is hardly a single person who hasn't now been adversely affected by Brexit.
    Article 50(5) of the Treaty on European Union is very clear that to rejoin we have to get in the queue with everyone else -

    "If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49."

    Article 49 is the same procedure as applying to Ukraine, Turkey, Albania etc etc.

    Unless you're saying that Barnier can rewrite the Treaty on European Union. Huge if true.
    There is a fundamental difference, though. The UK already has EU law and regulation on the books. Passing the Acquis would take a few seconds.
    There are other obstacles that Ukraine, Turkey and Albania don’t have. It’s going to take some persuasion for Italy to be satisfied with being the third largest economy in the EU again.
    I think there would be enormous reluctance among EU capitals to bring the UK in, given that we'd (a) been a pain in the butt while a member before; and (b) that there was no overwhelming support for EU membership in the UK. That is, the last thing EU countries want is an on-again, off-again relationship with the UK.

    That being said... I think they would probably be relatively relaxed about the UK joining the EEA. But I just don't see the political will for that in the UK.

    The Swiss-type relationship, where low skilled migration is limited by the requirement to have Swiss educational qualifications and the need to purchase health insurance, combined with the Swiss maintaining more sovereignty than happens in EFTA/EEA, is more possible.

    Nick Tyrone seems pretty convinced they'd have us back, at least part because it would be seen as a vindication that leaving the EU is a bad idea. There is an interview on his substack he did with the former French Ambassador to the US who seems adamant the French would want us back.
    You don't think Stella Creasy and other very pro-EU Labour MPs will be getting on Starmer's case come 2028/9 if he hasn't started making noises about re-entering the single market?
    To be honest I would suggest that come 28/29 there is a good chance Starmer will have a lot more to worry about than a few vocal back benchers banging on about the EU. For all that I will be glad to see the back of the Tories I have no faith that Starmer has the ideas necessary to improve things on any meaningful way
  • I'm sure MoonRabbit can explain why these polls actually show Labour going backwards

    Here’s the chart that MoonRabbit is looking at.
    The topless lady is now lying on the bed! 😆

    I’m not the only psephologist here who can see the topless lady in the polling am I?
    More entertaining than most of the nonsense you write about them.

    You accepting you're wrong now?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    I'm sure MoonRabbit can explain why these polls actually show Labour going backwards

    Do you actually read the site, or just SAS posting. 🙂
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    Blue Tories, Red Tories, same shit.

    Two cheeks of the same arse
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    I'm sure MoonRabbit can explain why these polls actually show Labour going backwards

    Here’s the chart that MoonRabbit is looking at.
    The topless lady is now lying on the bed! 😆

    I’m not the only psephologist here who can see the topless lady in the polling am I?
    It’s all gone tits up now. 😁
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,932
    edited February 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
    Even the Mail has given up with this.

    When he went it was not a private school. Starmer is not able to time travel.
    It was by the time he left.

    It has fees of over £20k a year now and is in the HMC along with Eton, Winchester and Fettes.

    Now the Leeds comprehensive educated Northern Liz has gone, we are guaranteed a posh Southern born and raised, privately educated PM whether Sunak or Starmer win

    https://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/reigate-grammar-school/
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    IanB2 said:

    As Moonrabbit says, the Tories are going from strength to strength. It’s just a matter of looking at the data from the right angle….


    The right ones bigger than the left one.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Hands-up all those expecting Sunak's shuffle/mini-shuffle to be an absolute masterpiece of shooting-oneself-in-the-foot. 🤚

    Or he chickens out of a reshuffle.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton: Labour leads by 26%, the largest lead for Labour since Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (5 February):

    Labour 50% (… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622641270572154880

    @MoonRabbit please explain!
    As I have been reporting for about a week, Something bad is going on with the Tory poll %, maybe mounting voter frustration at strikes as strikers more popular than the government position, which could be a temporary % drop recoverable before general election, or, what might me harder to recover, voters assessment of a new PM and his government is coming to an end, and they assess a weak, clueless, not just out of touch but with a nasty party streak to it, mess of a leader and party.

    Yes. Mex. You know where to come for the best most unspun poll explanations 😁
    What could possibly be going on with the polls?

    Well, let's see. Six eggs are £2.50, if you can find them, chicken breast is up from about £3 to £5, a pint is anywhere from £5 to £7.50 depending on where you are in the country, most of my friends have stopped booking train travel in advance because it's too unreliable, I've had family wait ten hours in an ambulance to get admitted to A&E, my gas bill is coming to £200 a month and I barely heat the place above 15 degrees, relying on an electric blanket or a warm coat most of the time, rents are up 27% year on year in London, and similar rises in other major cities like Manchester. Interest rates meaning mortgages are up similar amounts for people remortgaging this year. Taxes rose substantially in the last budget, and while many in the private sector are seeing pay rises, they're largely below inflation, while others haven't seen a pay rise since before Covid.

    I cannot possibly imagine why people want this shower of shit out of government.
    I bought eggs today. I paid less about 1.75. I brought a pint of doom bar yesterday it cost me 4.20. Don't assume that south east inflation applies to most people
    I paid 10 quid for organic chicken breasts and 2.80 for organic eggs but Doom Bar at Wetherspoons is on just over 2 quid.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    I'm sure MoonRabbit can explain why these polls actually show Labour going backwards

    Here’s the chart that MoonRabbit is looking at.
    The topless lady is now lying on the bed! 😆

    I’m not the only psephologist here who can see the topless lady in the polling am I?
    Seek help
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    Foxy said:

    Isn't the reason for the scarcity and price of eggs down to bird flu rather than Brexit, or Ukraine or the KamiKwasi budget?

    Yes. I don't think anyone is claiming it's down to Brexit.
    I was wondering if all the eggs had been poached by the EU?
    We have had en-oeuf of eggsperts.
    Omelette me think about that one for a minute.
    You must be scrambling to think of puns.
    Who did you poach that from
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    29% with Deltapoll is of course the same as Labour got in 2010 when Brown got a hung parliament. So plenty still to play for

    Just watching the Tory %:

    2022 has given us 2 Tory polls in the 30s, a 30 and 31, both from Delta.

    February has given us the sequence 24, 22, 27, 24, 24.

    I think now you can only properly assess month to month not on weeks or part weeks, because if Opinium, Delta and Kantor had been only pollsters to report so far in February, it would have Tories averaging 29%

    Actually 24% is quite awful polling figure for a current average of last 5 polls - it’s not that far off what got Truss humiliatingly booted out. If Truss and her policies were such disaster, then what should be said about a PM polling very nearly exactly the same from an average of all polls over one month?
    The Tories were on only 19% with Truss with RedfieldWilton last October

    Without your cherry picking, the polling average of the Truss month probably isn’t so far from Sunak’s most recent month, is it?
    It is, the average was at least 5% lower

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
    No.



    Sunak is currently top of a square. The bottom of the square is 5%. The lowest ever Liz Dip is way off bottom of the square.

    Sunak is now only about 3% better than Truss at her worst on the measurement you have asked us to use.
    Wrong.

    Opinium had the Tories under Truss on 23%, now 29%. Redfield had the Tories on 19%, now 24%. Yougov had the Tories on 19%, now 24%. Omnisis now had the Tories on 22% now 24%. PeoplePolling had the Tories on 14% now 22%. Techne had the Tories on 22% now 27%. Deltapoll had the Tories on 25% now 29%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
    Wrong.

    The last Redfield under Truss had the Tories on 21%, not 19%.

    Of pollsters who have polled during both Truss's and Sunak's premierships, you have omitted:

    Savanta (Truss 25%, Sunak 26%)
    BMG (Truss 30%, Sunak 29%)
    Ipsos (Truss 26%, Sunak 26%)

    So now we have (Tory support%: Truss / Sunak / improvement)

    Opinium (23% / 29% / 6%)
    R&W (21% / 24% / 3%)
    Yougov (19% / 24% / 5%)
    Omnisis (22% / 24% / 2%)
    PeoplePolling (14% / 22% / 8%)
    Techne (22% / 27% / 5%)
    Deltapoll (25% / 29% / 4%)
    Savanta (25% / 26% / 1%)
    BMG (30% / 29% / -1%)
    Ipsos (26% / 26% / 0%)

    The differences are: 6%, 3%, 5%, 2%, 8%, 5%, 4%, 1%, -1%, and 0%.

    Which averages 3.3%. Sunak has increased Tory support by 3.3% over Truss at her worst.
    Wow. That 3.3 figure LOOKS IDENTICAL to what the average of all polls on the graph is now showing us.

    salute the lines on the graph. In all their bosomy glory. 🫡
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    I'm sure MoonRabbit can explain why these polls actually show Labour going backwards

    Here’s the chart that MoonRabbit is looking at.
    The topless lady is now lying on the bed! 😆

    I’m not the only psephologist here who can see the topless lady in the polling am I?
    More entertaining than most of the nonsense you write about them.

    You accepting you're wrong now?
    No. 😝
  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    World's first female dictator coming soon - Kim Yo-jong in North Korea?

    Kim Jong-un, who is not known for his healthy lifestyle, is still not appearing publicly, skipped yesterday's Politburo meeting, and may miss this week's military parade.
  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
    Even the Mail has given up with this.

    When he went it was not a private school. Starmer is not able to time travel.
    It was by the time he left.

    It has fees of over £20k a year now and is in the HMC along with Eton, Winchester and Fettes.
    That's a bit twisty. Sure, but so are nearly 400 other schools.

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    Hands up for LIZ TRUSS!

    And they say I’m the one who needs help?

    You’re like a cross between the Stop Breeeeexit Man and the Goon Show.
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 500
    edited February 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
    Even the Mail has given up with this.

    When he went it was not a private school. Starmer is not able to time travel.
    It was by the time he left.

    It has fees of over £20k a year now and is in the HMC along with Eton, Winchester and Fettes.

    Now the comprehensive educated Northern Liz has gone, we are guaranteed a posh Southern born and raised, privately educated PM whether Sunak or Starmer win

    https://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/reigate-grammar-school/
    So your point is that 13 year old Starmer should have left his school because 40 years later he might become Labour leader?

    Are you mad?
    No, he should have left his school when it became fee-paying because he "inherited his parents’ politics... joined Labour in his early teens and led the East Surrey Young Socialists". Because the alternative is that he and his parents are only averse to private education when they're not getting it for free.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    DJ41a said:

    World's first female dictator coming soon - Kim Yo-jong in North Korea?

    Kim Jong-un, who is not known for his healthy lifestyle, is still not appearing publicly, skipped yesterday's Politburo meeting, and may miss this week's military parade.

    I’m rooting for Kim Jong Chul to get the gig.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Keep up the “privately educated Starmer” attacks please. It’s pathetic, and possibly worth even more vote share for Labour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Hands-up all those expecting Sunak's shuffle/mini-shuffle to be an absolute masterpiece of shooting-oneself-in-the-foot. 🤚

    Promotion for Zahawi - after all, he's now taken responsibility for his failings.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    DJ41a said:

    World's first female dictator coming soon - Kim Yo-jong in North Korea?

    Kim Jong-un, who is not known for his healthy lifestyle, is still not appearing publicly, skipped yesterday's Politburo meeting, and may miss this week's military parade.

    Have we really never had a female dictator in the modern age? That's a bit concerning. We've definitely had authoritarians in fairness.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Keep up the “privately educated Starmer” attacks please. It’s pathetic, and possibly worth even more vote share for Labour.

    It's all a bit bizarre. The public have proven many times they don't have a problem voting for posh privately educated twonks, so long as they like them enough (or dislike the alternative enough). So even if he did it wouldn't matter, and it's definitely not firm enough to paint him as some hypocrite.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    kle4 said:

    Keep up the “privately educated Starmer” attacks please. It’s pathetic, and possibly worth even more vote share for Labour.

    It's all a bit bizarre. The public have proven many times they don't have a problem voting for posh privately educated twonks, so long as they like them enough (or dislike the alternative enough). So even if he did it wouldn't matter, and it's definitely not firm enough to paint him as some hypocrite.
    There are many credible attacks to make on Keir. This ain’t one of them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    29% with Deltapoll is of course the same as Labour got in 2010 when Brown got a hung parliament. So plenty still to play for

    Just watching the Tory %:

    2022 has given us 2 Tory polls in the 30s, a 30 and 31, both from Delta.

    February has given us the sequence 24, 22, 27, 24, 24.

    I think now you can only properly assess month to month not on weeks or part weeks, because if Opinium, Delta and Kantor had been only pollsters to report so far in February, it would have Tories averaging 29%

    Actually 24% is quite awful polling figure for a current average of last 5 polls - it’s not that far off what got Truss humiliatingly booted out. If Truss and her policies were such disaster, then what should be said about a PM polling very nearly exactly the same from an average of all polls over one month?
    The Tories were on only 19% with Truss with RedfieldWilton last October

    Without your cherry picking, the polling average of the Truss month probably isn’t so far from Sunak’s most recent month, is it?
    It is, the average was at least 5% lower

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
    No.



    Sunak is currently top of a square. The bottom of the square is 5%. The lowest ever Liz Dip is way off bottom of the square.

    Sunak is now only about 3% better than Truss at her worst on the measurement you have asked us to use.
    Wrong.

    Opinium had the Tories under Truss on 23%, now 29%. Redfield had the Tories on 19%, now 24%. Yougov had the Tories on 19%, now 24%. Omnisis now had the Tories on 22% now 24%. PeoplePolling had the Tories on 14% now 22%. Techne had the Tories on 22% now 27%. Deltapoll had the Tories on 25% now 29%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
    are you cherry picking? Why? We have ALL the polls here, averaged out. What more do you need?

    The graph shows average of pollsters over a long enough period to supply confidence, doesn’t it? It’s got all the polls on it, not just your favourite ones.

    The graph you linked shows Truss dipping out just 3% lower than where Sunak is now. Doesn’t it?

    Argue with the graph if you like, but it will tell you I’m right. The whole of the box is 5%. Sunak is now at top of the box, Truss at worse never averaged out right at bottom of the square.


    Of course, many more polls as bad as the

    February ones so far and the graph will be updated again so Sunak might be even closer


    than 3% to the worst of Truss.
    Cometh the hour.

    Cometh the leader.

    The one for Britain in our hour of need.

    Step forward Mary Elizabeth - matriarch and monarch.

    Some call her The Truss.

    To many, she is simply:

    ‘Liz’.



    I heard the interview. She really doesn't even have the most basic grasp of how the economy works. Like any school swot she revised her lines by rote and regurgitated them without any understanding.

    She is living proof that academic qualifications can be churned out without the foggiest idea of what anything actually means.
    It gives us all hope.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Hands up for LIZ TRUSS!

    And they say I’m the one who needs help?

    You’re like a cross between the Stop Breeeeexit Man and the Goon Show.
    The Goon Show?

    Many of your references don't ring true for a 20 something girl about town. The "Confessions" reference earlier busted you as a 62 year old Wellingborough plasterer called Keith.
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
    Well now, you are the one banging on about every clever kid should have access to a grammar school education, and here we are with the wrong sort of clever kid, and you think he should have transferred to a sink comp when the school became more exclusive.

    You are no meritocrat, you are a shameless elitist.
  • DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    My daughter, training to be a criminal lawyer, sent me this https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMY2guQt3/

    This job would be a hell of a lot of easier without clients.

    I once had a client who had sent a picture of his genitalia in a state of extreme excitement to his boss’s Secretary. Wanted me to negotiate a severance in advance of a misconduct hearing. He said he got the wrong number - offending pic had meant to go to a “friend” outside the company. I pointed out that, excluding the 07 at the start, there were 9 variable digits in a U.K. mobile telephone number. So the chances of him dialling his boss’s secretary’s number purely by chance were about 1 in 1,000,000,000. His response was to say, yes, but clearly that meant there was a chance he had got the wrong number and it would be unreasonable to fire him. He should be compensated.
    He also decided to seek alternative legal representation.
    "Negotiate a severance"??
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    "In my view this is like 1997 where the tide has turned and the public want to see something different. The huge challenge the Tories face is that unlike some previous fights they are facing a Labour leader who while possibly being a bit boring is not one who is going to be easily undermined. He is not Jeremy Corbyn."

    Spot on @MikeSmithson

    I really don't see a way back for the tories from this and Liz Truss has now come along to remind everyone just how awful it has been.

    The tide has indeed turned and, like dear old King Canute, there is nothing Sunak and Co can do to stop it.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    Hands up for LIZ TRUSS!

    And they say I’m the one who needs help?

    You’re like a cross between the Stop Breeeeexit Man and the Goon Show.
    The Goon Show?

    Many of your references don't ring true for a 20 something girl about town. The "Confessions" reference earlier busted you as a 62 year old Wellingborough plasterer called Keith.
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
    Well now, you are the one banging on about every clever kid should have access to a grammar school education, and here we are with the wrong sort of clever kid, and you think he should have transferred to a sink comp when the school became more exclusive.

    You are no meritocrat, you are a shameless elitist.
    Of course I know about clockwork orange and goon show etc - I went to art college! If it’s 60’s 70’s I’m all over it.

    It’s not the only confessions film I’ve seen! The humour is bright and sunny, the tits are great, and it’s probably realistic, I bet window cleaners and tradesman can tell a few stories!

    She suddenly appears there in just stockings, a basque and no knickers and says her husband won’t be home for three hours - what you going to do Mex, make your apologies and leave and mail the invoice for the blocked sink?

    Talking of stories, the “I” says Labour fear Boris returning and getting a hung Parliament. Are they really in tune with Labour fearing that, or do journalists just make this up?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Heathener said:

    "In my view this is like 1997 where the tide has turned and the public want to see something different. The huge challenge the Tories face is that unlike some previous fights they are facing a Labour leader who while possibly being a bit boring is not one who is going to be easily undermined. He is not Jeremy Corbyn."

    Spot on @MikeSmithson

    I really don't see a way back for the tories from this and Liz Truss has now come along to remind everyone just how awful it has been.

    The tide has indeed turned and, like dear old King Canute, there is nothing Sunak and Co can do to stop it.

    The big question is how popular is Starmer in Red Wall areas like Stoke-on-Trent and Grimsby.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    I agree with you @Foxy

    @Richard_Tyndall I was discussing this with a Conservative member friend who came for dinner tonight - I know, I know, I can even entertain the other side. We both agreed that the tories are in for a hammering but of course had different views about what happens after that. My take is that we HAVE to rejoin the EU. There is a desperate shortage of flexible labour in a free trade zone. If Labour can make the case for this then it will go some way to helping get this country's economy back on track.

    I don't see a solution for the UK economy but to rejoin the single market, WITH freedom of movement.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,154

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    EPG said:

    pigeon said:

    Should people in Britain really be starving? I'm sure I saw a 1kg bag of rice going for 35p in Tesco not that long ago. Now you might be malnourished if you rely on that but actually starving? With the number of goods available it's possible that people aren't necessarily aware of what the cheapest staples are.

    Of course, once you've got your bag of rice you then need to pay for the energy to cook it.

    But the general point is taken. Compared to Michael Buerk's iconic images of skeletal children breathing their last on the barren plains of Ethiopia, who cares about the odd case of rickets here and there?
    With fewer than a hundred cases a year, yes, you can afford not to think about rickets. It certainly has next to nothing to do with inflation.
    The other relevant factor here is that the minimum wage has risen far faster than other wages. No one is pretending that life is easy for people at the bottom but in a lot of industries inflation outpacing wage increases has led to skilled jobs being paid at little more than the minimum wage. There was for instance the tik tok video of the single, 37 year old primary school teacher with 4 years experience pointing out that after his overheads are paid, he has £177 per month spending money, from a 33k per year job.... in Redcar.
    You’d want to know what the overheads were though, to judge.
    It was in the video.
    But roughly...
    Rent, bills, car, petrol, food, gym, netflix.
    600+300+300+150+400+50+25....

    He had a solution which was to go to dubai, pay no tax, have the same job with all your accommodation paid for you, and his disposable income rose from £177 to well over £1000 per month.
    So his disposable income is £177 + £50 + £25 = £252
    This type of attitude is exactly why there should be a general strike until pay in the public sector is corrected to account for historic inflation. People doing skilled work with lots of responsibility deserve to be paid properly, not sneered at for wanting to go to the gym.
    I am not sneering. If somebody wants to join a gym or subscribe to Netflix that is their choice. But making out that these are essentials rather than discretionary spend is just bollocks.
    Also, not clear why Netflix is £25/month. Prices, IIRC, are between £5 (with ads, yuck) and £16.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    It is now just a question of how close our relationship with the EU should be.

    1. Swiss-style?
    2. EFTA?
    3. Full on re-join?

    The first can be delivered with good old-fashioned incrementalism, aka “muddle”.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    It is now just a question of how close our relationship with the EU should be.

    1. Swiss-style?
    2. EFTA?
    3. Full on re-join?

    The first can be delivered with good old-fashioned incrementalism, aka “muddle”.

    1. Don’t they have holes in their cheese though? Would that not worry you?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,637
    edited February 2023
    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    I agree with you @Foxy

    @Richard_Tyndall I was discussing this with a Conservative member friend who came for dinner tonight - I know, I know, I can even entertain the other side. We both agreed that the tories are in for a hammering but of course had different views about what happens after that. My take is that we HAVE to rejoin the EU. There is a desperate shortage of flexible labour in a free trade zone. If Labour can make the case for this then it will go some way to helping get this country's economy back on track.

    I don't see a solution for the UK economy but to rejoin the single market, WITH freedom of movement.
    Did you see my response to you from a few days ago? Rejoining the single market won't recreate the labour market conditions of the decade after 2004 because the A8 member states are now much more prosperous. This trend would have happened with or without Brexit.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    I agree with you @Foxy

    @Richard_Tyndall I was discussing this with a Conservative member friend who came for dinner tonight - I know, I know, I can even entertain the other side. We both agreed that the tories are in for a hammering but of course had different views about what happens after that. My take is that we HAVE to rejoin the EU. There is a desperate shortage of flexible labour in a free trade zone. If Labour can make the case for this then it will go some way to helping get this country's economy back on track.

    I don't see a solution for the UK economy but to rejoin the single market, WITH freedom of movement.
    Did you see my response to you from a few days ago? Rejoining the single market won't recreate the labour market conditions of the decade after 2004 because the A8 member states are now much more prosperous. This trend would have happened with or without Brexit.
    I didn't but I'd need to see a much more fulsome response than that. We need full FoM from the entire EU.

    Industries such a entertainment, agriculture, and even the NHS are desperately in need of this, and all within a free trade zone.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    I agree with you @Foxy

    @Richard_Tyndall I was discussing this with a Conservative member friend who came for dinner tonight - I know, I know, I can even entertain the other side. We both agreed that the tories are in for a hammering but of course had different views about what happens after that. My take is that we HAVE to rejoin the EU. There is a desperate shortage of flexible labour in a free trade zone. If Labour can make the case for this then it will go some way to helping get this country's economy back on track.

    I don't see a solution for the UK economy but to rejoin the single market, WITH freedom of movement.
    Did you see my response to you from a few days ago? Rejoining the single market won't recreate the labour market conditions of the decade after 2004 because the A8 member states are now much more prosperous. This trend would have happened with or without Brexit.
    I didn't but I'd need to see a much more fulsome response than that. We need full FoM from the entire EU.

    Industries such a entertainment, agriculture, and even the NHS are desperately in need of this, and all within a free trade zone.
    Amazing to see how desperate some people are to keep unproductive sectors in business via poverty wages.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    It is now just a question of how close our relationship with the EU should be.

    1. Swiss-style?
    2. EFTA?
    3. Full on re-join?

    The first can be delivered with good old-fashioned incrementalism, aka “muddle”.

    Mass immigration and laws imposed on us without our say OR mass immigration and our economy controlled by German bankers in Frankfurt.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,154
    WillG said:

    It is now just a question of how close our relationship with the EU should be.

    1. Swiss-style?
    2. EFTA?
    3. Full on re-join?

    The first can be delivered with good old-fashioned incrementalism, aka “muddle”.

    Mass immigration and laws imposed on us without our say OR mass immigration and our economy controlled by German bankers in Frankfurt.
    To be fair, @WillG, the Swiss have managed to control low skilled immigration pretty effectively, while having control over trade agreements outside the EEA, and having a very close relationship with the EU.

    They seem pretty happy and rich too.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    rcs1000 said:

    WillG said:

    It is now just a question of how close our relationship with the EU should be.

    1. Swiss-style?
    2. EFTA?
    3. Full on re-join?

    The first can be delivered with good old-fashioned incrementalism, aka “muddle”.

    Mass immigration and laws imposed on us without our say OR mass immigration and our economy controlled by German bankers in Frankfurt.
    To be fair, @WillG, the Swiss have managed to control low skilled immigration pretty effectively, while having control over trade agreements outside the EEA, and having a very close relationship with the EU.

    They seem pretty happy and rich too.
    The Swiss don't face the issue of being primarily English speaking, which is a massive pull factor for immigrants.

    I assume that is the main barrier as there are no legal restrictions for Eastern European immigration to Switzerland, yet they don't have many. Clearly a different case to the UK.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Interesting article comparing the consolidation of the global battery market with that of the memory chip industry. I think some of the comparison is debatable, as it’s still early days in the growth of the industry, and European and Japanese players might have a chance, but it shows a kind of strategic thinking pretty rare in the UK.
    (Bonus for the brief, dismissive mention of Britishvolt.)

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2023/02/133_344822.html
    … A new order is also prevailing in the global battery industry, as Korean battery manufacturers are on track to increase their production capacity to take on their chief Chinese rivals including CATL and BYD.

    Enticed by advantages from the market consolidation and rationalization, the world's No. 2 battery maker LG Energy Solution (LGES) and its fellow domestic rivals Samsung SDI and SK On aim to remain competitive with their large-scale and technological capabilities, company officials said.

    A severe economic downturn starting in the late 1990s was the factor behind the memory chip industry consolidation, as this macro-economic trend severely reduced demand in major end markets. But today's signs of consolidation in the battery industry are driven by political factors from the very beginning, with the U.S. providing more incentives and financing for Korean battery manufacturers amid pandemic supply chain disruptions…

    “ Given the U.S.' strategy to upscale both demand- and supply-side measures and its shift to electrification with domestic manufacturing, the pace of industry consolidation will accelerate much faster than expected," a government official, who had been deeply involved in the country's trade policies under the former Moon administration, said by telephone.

    Since 2012, most of the memory chip sector's core strength has been a result of consolidation within the once-crowded DRAM segment. In 1995, the top 10 DRAM players took up about an 80 percent market share. Since then, the market has been consolidating rapidly. Between 2013 and 2014, Samsung, Micron and SK accounted for more than a 90 percent market share, according to market research firms.

    "Usually, overproduction and falling product prices lead significant market consolidation. When it comes to the battery industry, because the U.S. is moving towards friend-shoring or ally-shoring, LGES and Samsung SDI could be able to win the most gains among others as they supply batteries to specific and target clients via joint ventures," a senior portfolio manager at a U.S.-based investment bank in Seoul said.

    The Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), the Biden administration's policy initiative intended to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles (EVs), is another factor helping Korean battery manufacturers see a widened economies of scale, according to the manager. Economies of scale are viewed as cost benefits to a business through the scale-up production....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    I agree with you @Foxy

    @Richard_Tyndall I was discussing this with a Conservative member friend who came for dinner tonight - I know, I know, I can even entertain the other side. We both agreed that the tories are in for a hammering but of course had different views about what happens after that. My take is that we HAVE to rejoin the EU. There is a desperate shortage of flexible labour in a free trade zone. If Labour can make the case for this then it will go some way to helping get this country's economy back on track.

    I don't see a solution for the UK economy but to rejoin the single market, WITH freedom of movement.
    Did you see my response to you from a few days ago? Rejoining the single market won't recreate the labour market conditions of the decade after 2004 because the A8 member states are now much more prosperous. This trend would have happened with or without Brexit.
    Probably true - though Brexit provided a large one off shock which can hardly be described as part of a trend.
    (And zero Brexiteers were arguing your point ahead of Brexit.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited February 2023
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    EPG said:

    pigeon said:

    Should people in Britain really be starving? I'm sure I saw a 1kg bag of rice going for 35p in Tesco not that long ago. Now you might be malnourished if you rely on that but actually starving? With the number of goods available it's possible that people aren't necessarily aware of what the cheapest staples are.

    Of course, once you've got your bag of rice you then need to pay for the energy to cook it.

    But the general point is taken. Compared to Michael Buerk's iconic images of skeletal children breathing their last on the barren plains of Ethiopia, who cares about the odd case of rickets here and there?
    With fewer than a hundred cases a year, yes, you can afford not to think about rickets. It certainly has next to nothing to do with inflation.
    The other relevant factor here is that the minimum wage has risen far faster than other wages. No one is pretending that life is easy for people at the bottom but in a lot of industries inflation outpacing wage increases has led to skilled jobs being paid at little more than the minimum wage. There was for instance the tik tok video of the single, 37 year old primary school teacher with 4 years experience pointing out that after his overheads are paid, he has £177 per month spending money, from a 33k per year job.... in Redcar.
    You’d want to know what the overheads were though, to judge.
    It was in the video.
    But roughly...
    Rent, bills, car, petrol, food, gym, netflix.
    600+300+300+150+400+50+25....

    He had a solution which was to go to dubai, pay no tax, have the same job with all your accommodation paid for you, and his disposable income rose from £177 to well over £1000 per month.
    This guy?

    The exercise in totting up monthly goings in the UK and UAE has since notched more than four million views. In the video, the primary schoolteacher shows how much he would have earned in the UK after the many deductions, such as taxes, rent, car finance and food, from a salary of £33,850 ($41,074) — leaving him just £171.94 for socialising and saving each month.

    “But in Dubai, thanks to free accommodation provided by his employer and no income tax, he has £1,604 left each month from his £32,460 annual salary after paying bills and buying food.

    “ “I get all [year] round sunshine, and I get health care provided by my employer and I only have to pay 20 per cent [insurance] co-pay, which means anything as an outpatient, I pay 20 per cent for, but I get to see a doctor or a dentist on the day,” the 36-year-old from Redcar says in the video.”


    https://www.thenationalnews.com/weekend/2023/01/13/all-roads-lead-to-dubai-for-the-workers-deserting-britains-sinking-ship/

    There’s a huge shortage of native English speaking teachers out here, both for local state schools and expat private schools.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,154
    WillG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    WillG said:

    It is now just a question of how close our relationship with the EU should be.

    1. Swiss-style?
    2. EFTA?
    3. Full on re-join?

    The first can be delivered with good old-fashioned incrementalism, aka “muddle”.

    Mass immigration and laws imposed on us without our say OR mass immigration and our economy controlled by German bankers in Frankfurt.
    To be fair, @WillG, the Swiss have managed to control low skilled immigration pretty effectively, while having control over trade agreements outside the EEA, and having a very close relationship with the EU.

    They seem pretty happy and rich too.
    The Swiss don't face the issue of being primarily English speaking, which is a massive pull factor for immigrants.

    I assume that is the main barrier as there are no legal restrictions for Eastern European immigration to Switzerland, yet they don't have many. Clearly a different case to the UK.
    You are right that English being the ... errr ... lingua franca is a particular issue for us.

    But it is worth remembering that English was not taught at all in Eastern Europe until the mid 1990s. If you were born in 1980 in Warsaw or Budapest, you will have been taught Russian at school.

    People will learn new languages if it is economically advantageous to them. (Plus, of course, you don't need to spend much time in East London to realise there are plenty of immigrants to the UK with minimal English.)

    Switzerland has controlled low skilled EU immigration through three routes:

    Firstly, for many roles, you need to have Swiss vocational qualifications. Not just anybody can turn up on a Swiss building site and work. Now, those vocational qualifications are relatively easy to get. But that's still a meaningful barrier.

    Secondly (and relatedly): there's not a lot of low skilled work in Switzerland. They do an incredible job of upskilling their own population. People get to 21 with the skills to be a plumber, etc.

    Thirdly, private health insurance is compulsory in Switzerland, and the lowest cost plans are only available to Swiss nationals (and those with official work permits). So, Igor from Bucharest - if he wishes to work - will need to be in possession of a CHF500/month healthcare plan.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited February 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    I agree with you @Foxy

    @Richard_Tyndall I was discussing this with a Conservative member friend who came for dinner tonight - I know, I know, I can even entertain the other side. We both agreed that the tories are in for a hammering but of course had different views about what happens after that. My take is that we HAVE to rejoin the EU. There is a desperate shortage of flexible labour in a free trade zone. If Labour can make the case for this then it will go some way to helping get this country's economy back on track.

    I don't see a solution for the UK economy but to rejoin the single market, WITH freedom of movement.
    Did you see my response to you from a few days ago? Rejoining the single market won't recreate the labour market conditions of the decade after 2004 because the A8 member states are now much more prosperous. This trend would have happened with or without Brexit.
    Probably true - though Brexit provided a large one off shock which can hardly be described as part of a trend.
    (And zero Brexiteers were arguing your point ahead of Brexit.)
    It was a pleasant one-off shock for many unskilled and semi-skilled workers in the UK, many of whom now earn 20-30% more than they did under FoM, when the legal minimum wage was seen as the maximum wage in a huge number of industries. Those people will be paying more taxes and claiming fewer benefits now, than they did two or three years ago.

    Amazon warehouses are now paying £15 an hour - that’s £30k a year if you work 40 hours a week, and there will likely be pretty much unlimited overtime available.
    https://uk.indeed.com/cmp/Amazon.com/salaries/Warehouse-Worker
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Who saw this one coming?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/06/binance-will-suspend-us-dollar-transfers.html

    Binance to suspend fiat withdrawals later this week. They’re pretty much the last major crypto exchange standing. Whether or not they’re still standing this time next week, on the other hand, is a question best left to the reader…
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    I agree with you @Foxy

    @Richard_Tyndall I was discussing this with a Conservative member friend who came for dinner tonight - I know, I know, I can even entertain the other side. We both agreed that the tories are in for a hammering but of course had different views about what happens after that. My take is that we HAVE to rejoin the EU. There is a desperate shortage of flexible labour in a free trade zone. If Labour can make the case for this then it will go some way to helping get this country's economy back on track.

    I don't see a solution for the UK economy but to rejoin the single market, WITH freedom of movement.
    Did you see my response to you from a few days ago? Rejoining the single market won't recreate the labour market conditions of the decade after 2004 because the A8 member states are now much more prosperous. This trend would have happened with or without Brexit.
    Probably true - though Brexit provided a large one off shock which can hardly be described as part of a trend.
    (And zero Brexiteers were arguing your point ahead of Brexit.)
    It was a pleasant one-off shock for many unskilled and semi-skilled workers in the UK, many of whom now earn 20-30% more than they did under FoM, when the legal minimum wage was seen as the maximum wage in a huge number of industries. Those people will be paying more taxes and claiming fewer benefits now, than they did two or three years ago.

    Amazon warehouses are now paying £15 an hour - that’s £30k a year if you work 40 hours a week, and there will likely be pretty much unlimited overtime available.
    https://uk.indeed.com/cmp/Amazon.com/salaries/Warehouse-Worker
    And Amazon workers are so pleased that they are going on strike. They are at minimum wage levels, not £15 p.h.

    https://www.news18.com/business/amazon-uk-workers-go-on-strike-over-low-pay-raise-severe-working-conditions-6929137.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    On the war:

    Here's yet another threat from Lavrov against Moldova.

    https://www.dw.com/en/russia-steps-up-threats-against-republic-of-moldova/a-64612019
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited February 2023

    On the war:

    Here's yet another threat from Lavrov against Moldova.

    https://www.dw.com/en/russia-steps-up-threats-against-republic-of-moldova/a-64612019

    You and whose army, Mr Lavrov?

    In case you missed it, you’re losing hundreds of mobliks and a dozen tanks every day in Ukraine at the moment. Not too sure there’s much left of the once-mighty Russian military to go around.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    EPG said:

    pigeon said:

    Should people in Britain really be starving? I'm sure I saw a 1kg bag of rice going for 35p in Tesco not that long ago. Now you might be malnourished if you rely on that but actually starving? With the number of goods available it's possible that people aren't necessarily aware of what the cheapest staples are.

    Of course, once you've got your bag of rice you then need to pay for the energy to cook it.

    But the general point is taken. Compared to Michael Buerk's iconic images of skeletal children breathing their last on the barren plains of Ethiopia, who cares about the odd case of rickets here and there?
    With fewer than a hundred cases a year, yes, you can afford not to think about rickets. It certainly has next to nothing to do with inflation.
    The other relevant factor here is that the minimum wage has risen far faster than other wages. No one is pretending that life is easy for people at the bottom but in a lot of industries inflation outpacing wage increases has led to skilled jobs being paid at little more than the minimum wage. There was for instance the tik tok video of the single, 37 year old primary school teacher with 4 years experience pointing out that after his overheads are paid, he has £177 per month spending money, from a 33k per year job.... in Redcar.
    You’d want to know what the overheads were though, to judge.
    It was in the video.
    But roughly...
    Rent, bills, car, petrol, food, gym, netflix.
    600+300+300+150+400+50+25....

    He had a solution which was to go to dubai, pay no tax, have the same job with all your accommodation paid for you, and his disposable income rose from £177 to well over £1000 per month.
    This guy?

    The exercise in totting up monthly goings in the UK and UAE has since notched more than four million views. In the video, the primary schoolteacher shows how much he would have earned in the UK after the many deductions, such as taxes, rent, car finance and food, from a salary of £33,850 ($41,074) — leaving him just £171.94 for socialising and saving each month.

    “But in Dubai, thanks to free accommodation provided by his employer and no income tax, he has £1,604 left each month from his £32,460 annual salary after paying bills and buying food.

    “ “I get all [year] round sunshine, and I get health care provided by my employer and I only have to pay 20 per cent [insurance] co-pay, which means anything as an outpatient, I pay 20 per cent for, but I get to see a doctor or a dentist on the day,” the 36-year-old from Redcar says in the video.”


    https://www.thenationalnews.com/weekend/2023/01/13/all-roads-lead-to-dubai-for-the-workers-deserting-britains-sinking-ship/

    There’s a huge shortage of native English speaking teachers out here, both for local state schools and expat private schools.
    Yeah, that was the video.
    I just like the way he was saying 'im not going to listen to lectures about avocados'. (substitute this for netflix/gym membership etc); he just moves to Dubai to get paid properly.
    If you think about it as well, this all comes alongside lectures from Ofsted etc about needing 'to remove failing teachers', who make teachers lives hell (probably not the case in Dubai) and complaints about a 'shortage of teachers' and 'teachers leaving the profession'.
    The expectations foisted on young people is just irrational.
    It isn't too hard to just join the dots.... pay teachers better and improve their conditions and this won't be an issue.


  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,154
    Sandpit said:

    Who saw this one coming?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/06/binance-will-suspend-us-dollar-transfers.html

    Binance to suspend fiat withdrawals later this week. They’re pretty much the last major crypto exchange standing. Whether or not they’re still standing this time next week, on the other hand, is a question best left to the reader…

    There's a certain irony that it was Binance that precipitated the collapse of FTX.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    On the war:

    Here's yet another threat from Lavrov against Moldova.

    https://www.dw.com/en/russia-steps-up-threats-against-republic-of-moldova/a-64612019

    The Russians have wasted a lot of FSB money on Moldovan politicians who turned out to be duds (Dodon then Shor) which is presumably why one of Lavrov's "technical/military' solutions is on the table.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Heathener said:

    "In my view this is like 1997 where the tide has turned and the public want to see something different. The huge challenge the Tories face is that unlike some previous fights they are facing a Labour leader who while possibly being a bit boring is not one who is going to be easily undermined. He is not Jeremy Corbyn."

    Spot on @MikeSmithson

    I really don't see a way back for the tories from this and Liz Truss has now come along to remind everyone just how awful it has been.

    The tide has indeed turned and, like dear old King Canute, there is nothing Sunak and Co can do to stop it.

    The big question is how popular is Starmer in Red Wall areas like Stoke-on-Trent and Grimsby.
    If Redfield and Wilton are to be believed, Starmer is probably popular enough;

    When asked which would be a better Prime Minister between Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer, Starmer (43%, +1) leads Sunak (33%, +1) by ten points. 24% (-2) say they don’t know.


    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-23-january-2023/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,392
    DJ41a said:

    World's first female dictator coming soon - Kim Yo-jong in North Korea?

    Kim Jong-un, who is not known for his healthy lifestyle, is still not appearing publicly, skipped yesterday's Politburo meeting, and may miss this week's military parade.

    Indira Gandhi beat her to it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,392
    Dura_Ace said:

    On the war:

    Here's yet another threat from Lavrov against Moldova.

    https://www.dw.com/en/russia-steps-up-threats-against-republic-of-moldova/a-64612019

    The Russians have wasted a lot of FSB money on Moldovan politicians who turned out to be duds (Dodon then Shor) which is presumably why one of Lavrov's "technical/military' solutions is on the table.
    I was assuming it’s bluster in case Moldova decided to take advantage of Russia’s preoccupation to reassert control over Transnistria.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    I agree with you @Foxy

    @Richard_Tyndall I was discussing this with a Conservative member friend who came for dinner tonight - I know, I know, I can even entertain the other side. We both agreed that the tories are in for a hammering but of course had different views about what happens after that. My take is that we HAVE to rejoin the EU. There is a desperate shortage of flexible labour in a free trade zone. If Labour can make the case for this then it will go some way to helping get this country's economy back on track.

    I don't see a solution for the UK economy but to rejoin the single market, WITH freedom of movement.
    Did you see my response to you from a few days ago? Rejoining the single market won't recreate the labour market conditions of the decade after 2004 because the A8 member states are now much more prosperous. This trend would have happened with or without Brexit.
    Probably true - though Brexit provided a large one off shock which can hardly be described as part of a trend.
    (And zero Brexiteers were arguing your point ahead of Brexit.)
    It was a pleasant one-off shock for many unskilled and semi-skilled workers in the UK, many of whom now earn 20-30% more than they did under FoM, when the legal minimum wage was seen as the maximum wage in a huge number of industries. Those people will be paying more taxes and claiming fewer benefits now, than they did two or three years ago.

    Amazon warehouses are now paying £15 an hour - that’s £30k a year if you work 40 hours a week, and there will likely be pretty much unlimited overtime available.
    https://uk.indeed.com/cmp/Amazon.com/salaries/Warehouse-Worker
    And Amazon workers are so pleased that they are going on strike. They are at minimum wage levels, not £15 p.h.

    https://www.news18.com/business/amazon-uk-workers-go-on-strike-over-low-pay-raise-severe-working-conditions-6929137.html
    +1 that £15 is for additional hours once they’ve done the initial 4x10 shifts a week.

    It also might be the nighttime overtime rate but I can’t be bothered to hunt that far.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Who saw this one coming?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/06/binance-will-suspend-us-dollar-transfers.html

    Binance to suspend fiat withdrawals later this week. They’re pretty much the last major crypto exchange standing. Whether or not they’re still standing this time next week, on the other hand, is a question best left to the reader…

    There's a certain irony that it was Binance that precipitated the collapse of FTX.
    Is it irony or merely a different Ponzi scheme pointing the blame anywhere else first.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
    Even the Mail has given up with this.

    When he went it was not a private school. Starmer is not able to time travel.
    It was by the time he left.

    It has fees of over £20k a year now and is in the HMC along with Eton, Winchester and Fettes.

    Now the Leeds comprehensive educated Northern Liz has gone, we are guaranteed a posh Southern born and raised, privately educated PM whether Sunak or Starmer win

    https://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/reigate-grammar-school/
    You really are clutching at straws there - for the x00th time it was a state school when Starmer joined and he never paid fees (and nor did anyone who was a pupil in the years before it became a private school).

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    I agree with you @Foxy

    @Richard_Tyndall I was discussing this with a Conservative member friend who came for dinner tonight - I know, I know, I can even entertain the other side. We both agreed that the tories are in for a hammering but of course had different views about what happens after that. My take is that we HAVE to rejoin the EU. There is a desperate shortage of flexible labour in a free trade zone. If Labour can make the case for this then it will go some way to helping get this country's economy back on track.

    I don't see a solution for the UK economy but to rejoin the single market, WITH freedom of movement.
    Did you see my response to you from a few days ago? Rejoining the single market won't recreate the labour market conditions of the decade after 2004 because the A8 member states are now much more prosperous. This trend would have happened with or without Brexit.
    Probably true - though Brexit provided a large one off shock which can hardly be described as part of a trend.
    (And zero Brexiteers were arguing your point ahead of Brexit.)
    It was a pleasant one-off shock for many unskilled and semi-skilled workers in the UK, many of whom now earn 20-30% more than they did under FoM, when the legal minimum wage was seen as the maximum wage in a huge number of industries. Those people will be paying more taxes and claiming fewer benefits now, than they did two or three years ago.

    Amazon warehouses are now paying £15 an hour - that’s £30k a year if you work 40 hours a week, and there will likely be pretty much unlimited overtime available.
    https://uk.indeed.com/cmp/Amazon.com/salaries/Warehouse-Worker
    And Amazon workers are so pleased that they are going on strike. They are at minimum wage levels, not £15 p.h.

    https://www.news18.com/business/amazon-uk-workers-go-on-strike-over-low-pay-raise-severe-working-conditions-6929137.html
    Whatever the particular case, though, if you look at the UK statistics for the last decade, it's undeniable that the percentage of those on the lowest hourly rates has fallen since 2016 (though there were already some signs of that trend pre-Brexit - and also it's more true of those paid by the hour than those paid weekly).

    The argument is really about how fast that trend would have happened anyway, and whether the economic shock of Brexit was worth it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
    Even the Mail has given up with this.

    When he went it was not a private school. Starmer is not able to time travel.
    It was by the time he left.

    It has fees of over £20k a year now and is in the HMC along with Eton, Winchester and Fettes.

    Now the Leeds comprehensive educated Northern Liz has gone, we are guaranteed a posh Southern born and raised, privately educated PM whether Sunak or Starmer win

    https://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/reigate-grammar-school/
    You really are clutching at straws there - for the x00th time it was a state school when Starmer joined and he never paid fees (and nor did anyone who was a pupil in the years before it became a private school).

    Yes the better attack line is on grammar schools, rather than private schools. ‘Your old grammar school became a private school rather than a comprehensive, should average middle-class parents now find it even less affordable to send their kids there?’
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,392
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Course. Time for a change pretty soon becomes Long Past Time for a Change.
    Folk who bemoan a lack of Labour radicalism should note.
    Starmer isn't Blair.

    Starmer isn't Blair, but that may be not such a bad thing.

    Well, for example, Starmer didn't go to a posh public school.
    Eh? Starmer's old school is an independent HMC school.

    He is the first Labour leader to have gone to public school since Blair
    Even the Mail has given up with this.

    When he went it was not a private school. Starmer is not able to time travel.
    It was by the time he left.

    It has fees of over £20k a year now and is in the HMC along with Eton, Winchester and Fettes.

    Now the Leeds comprehensive educated Northern Liz has gone, we are guaranteed a posh Southern born and raised, privately educated PM whether Sunak or Starmer win

    https://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/reigate-grammar-school/
    You really are clutching at straws there - for the x00th time it was a state school when Starmer joined and he never paid fees (and nor did anyone who was a pupil in the years before it became a private school).

    In one way it would be good if Johnson made a comeback.

    Labour’s slogan:

    Do you want to vote for somebody whose dad made massive tools of poor quality

    Or Keir Starmer?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited February 2023
    .
    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    EPG said:

    pigeon said:

    Should people in Britain really be starving? I'm sure I saw a 1kg bag of rice going for 35p in Tesco not that long ago. Now you might be malnourished if you rely on that but actually starving? With the number of goods available it's possible that people aren't necessarily aware of what the cheapest staples are.

    Of course, once you've got your bag of rice you then need to pay for the energy to cook it.

    But the general point is taken. Compared to Michael Buerk's iconic images of skeletal children breathing their last on the barren plains of Ethiopia, who cares about the odd case of rickets here and there?
    With fewer than a hundred cases a year, yes, you can afford not to think about rickets. It certainly has next to nothing to do with inflation.
    The other relevant factor here is that the minimum wage has risen far faster than other wages. No one is pretending that life is easy for people at the bottom but in a lot of industries inflation outpacing wage increases has led to skilled jobs being paid at little more than the minimum wage. There was for instance the tik tok video of the single, 37 year old primary school teacher with 4 years experience pointing out that after his overheads are paid, he has £177 per month spending money, from a 33k per year job.... in Redcar.
    You’d want to know what the overheads were though, to judge.
    It was in the video.
    But roughly...
    Rent, bills, car, petrol, food, gym, netflix.
    600+300+300+150+400+50+25....

    He had a solution which was to go to dubai, pay no tax, have the same job with all your accommodation paid for you, and his disposable income rose from £177 to well over £1000 per month.
    This guy?

    The exercise in totting up monthly goings in the UK and UAE has since notched more than four million views. In the video, the primary schoolteacher shows how much he would have earned in the UK after the many deductions, such as taxes, rent, car finance and food, from a salary of £33,850 ($41,074) — leaving him just £171.94 for socialising and saving each month.

    “But in Dubai, thanks to free accommodation provided by his employer and no income tax, he has £1,604 left each month from his £32,460 annual salary after paying bills and buying food.

    “ “I get all [year] round sunshine, and I get health care provided by my employer and I only have to pay 20 per cent [insurance] co-pay, which means anything as an outpatient, I pay 20 per cent for, but I get to see a doctor or a dentist on the day,” the 36-year-old from Redcar says in the video.”


    https://www.thenationalnews.com/weekend/2023/01/13/all-roads-lead-to-dubai-for-the-workers-deserting-britains-sinking-ship/

    There’s a huge shortage of native English speaking teachers out here, both for local state schools and expat private schools.
    Yeah, that was the video.
    I just like the way he was saying 'im not going to listen to lectures about avocados'. (substitute this for netflix/gym membership etc); he just moves to Dubai to get paid properly.
    If you think about it as well, this all comes alongside lectures from Ofsted etc about needing 'to remove failing teachers', who make teachers lives hell (probably not the case in Dubai) and complaints about a 'shortage of teachers' and 'teachers leaving the profession'.
    The expectations foisted on young people is just irrational.
    It isn't too hard to just join the dots.... pay teachers better and improve their conditions and this won't be an issue.

    Tories seem to have a propensity for getting worked up about avocados.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/06/avocado-staff-tears-working-for-the-tories-scandals-employment-laws
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