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Why did Sunak reappoint Raab? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,219
edited February 2023 in General
Why did Sunak reappoint Raab? – politicalbetting.com

Saturday’s INDEPENDENT Digital: “Now top comedian says Raab ‘can’t tell Asians apart’ “ #TomorrowsPapersToday pic.twitter.com/sAbfqL8Jz8

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Comments

  • First out the door like Raab.
  • Ooh was that a first?

    Bully for me.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165
    The stench of decay around the Sunak government is overpowering. Do we really have to put up with this for another 2 years?
  • Has the Star bought a lettuce yet?

    Cos if it has, we know he will leaf soon.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    The chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan was also on Raab's watch, IIRC he was on holiday and rather belatedly got involved (leading to the mess of the Afghan settlement programme), I can think of little he has done well at but is smooth on BBC etc. Its not just the bullying claims he can be hit with
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165

    Has the Star bought a lettuce yet?

    Cos if it has, we know he will leaf soon.

    A little gem of a comment to wake up to.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    The chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan was also on Raab's watch, IIRC he was on holiday and rather belatedly got involved (leading to the mess of the Afghan settlement programme), I can think of little he has done well at but is smooth on BBC etc. Its not just the bullying claims he can be hit with

    He was also the idiot who didn’t realise that there was more than one lorry a day through the port of Dover.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Foxy said:

    Has the Star bought a lettuce yet?

    Cos if it has, we know he will leaf soon.

    A little gem of a comment to wake up to.
    Tip of the iceberg. Revenge of the Romainers?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    edited February 2023
    Sunak is a wally.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173
    edited February 2023
    Foxy said:

    Has the Star bought a lettuce yet?

    Cos if it has, we know he will leaf soon.

    A little gem of a comment to wake up to.
    Merely the tip of the iceberg, I fear.

    Oops, beaten to it, as well.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173
    Sunak is hamstrung by the toxic inheritance of the Johnson years, when the clown promoted and preferred the unfit and marginalised or disposed of the able.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Has the Star bought a lettuce yet?

    Cos if it has, we know he will leaf soon.

    A little gem of a comment to wake up to.
    Merely the tip of the iceberg, I fear.

    Oops, beaten to it, as well.
    Lettuce not get sidetracked here.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
    edited February 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Sunak is hamstrung by the toxic inheritance of the Johnson years, when the clown promoted and preferred the unfit and marginalised or disposed of the able.

    True - but there have also been four major unforced errors in his Cabinet. Nobody forced him to bring back Raab, Braverman and Williamson, or to keep Zahawi.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    edited February 2023
    I just get the impression that Sunak is remarkably detached from reality. He makes silly mistakes. Not malign, but not exactly good either.

    An old fashioned wally, desperate to impress and prove that he’s as good as his predecessors. Poor judgment. He could have been written by Dickens as a bit of a tragic figure.

    Sigh, this country is cursed with poor leaders.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Has the Star bought a lettuce yet?

    Cos if it has, we know he will leaf soon.

    A little gem of a comment to wake up to.
    Merely the tip of the iceberg, I fear.

    Oops, beaten to it, as well.
    Lettuce not get sidetracked here.
    Cos you say so?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,844
    Foxy said:

    Has the Star bought a lettuce yet?

    Cos if it has, we know he will leaf soon.

    A little gem of a comment to wake up to.
    Its beCos he's clever
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,927
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sunak is hamstrung by the toxic inheritance of the Johnson years, when the clown promoted and preferred the unfit and marginalised or disposed of the able.

    True - but there have also been four major unforced errors in his Cabinet. Nobody forced him to bring back Raab, Braverman and Williamson, or to keep Zahawi.
    He was forced to bring these people back by his weak position within the party. And if Raab ends up going - as Patel didn't under Boris Johnson - then it will be another sign of his weakness.

    I'm struggling to see a scandal-free Cabinet that doesn't see the PM toppled by a revolt of all those sacked.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sunak is hamstrung by the toxic inheritance of the Johnson years, when the clown promoted and preferred the unfit and marginalised or disposed of the able.

    True - but there have also been four major unforced errors in his Cabinet. Nobody forced him to bring back Raab, Braverman and Williamson, or to keep Zahawi.
    He was forced to bring these people back by his weak position within the party. And if Raab ends up going - as Patel didn't under Boris Johnson - then it will be another sign of his weakness.

    I'm struggling to see a scandal-free Cabinet that doesn't see the PM toppled by a revolt of all those sacked.
    He’d just been elected by acclamation after a train crash. He was not in a weak position. What were they going to do, topple another PM at a time when the only alternative was a man who’d lied to Parliament?

    If he thought he was in a weak position more fool him.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Doethur, you appear to be accusing the modern Conservative Party MPs of acting in a rational manner.

    Remember they picked Boris Johnson. And then Liz Truss.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Doethur, you appear to be accusing the modern Conservative Party MPs of acting in a rational manner.

    Remember they picked Boris Johnson. And then Liz Truss.

    They did not pick Liz Truss.
  • Mr. Doethur, ah, you're right that it went to the members.

    But she did have a majority of MPs onside.
  • stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sunak is hamstrung by the toxic inheritance of the Johnson years, when the clown promoted and preferred the unfit and marginalised or disposed of the able.

    True - but there have also been four major unforced errors in his Cabinet. Nobody forced him to bring back Raab, Braverman and Williamson, or to keep Zahawi.
    He was forced to bring these people back by his weak position within the party. And if Raab ends up going - as Patel didn't under Boris Johnson - then it will be another sign of his weakness.

    I'm struggling to see a scandal-free Cabinet that doesn't see the PM toppled by a revolt of all those sacked.
    He’d just been elected by acclamation after a train crash. He was not in a weak position. What were they going to do, topple another PM at a time when the only alternative was a man who’d lied to Parliament?

    If he thought he was in a weak position more fool him.
    His first day in office was the time to get stuff done.
    He’s a lot weaker now - though not so weak that action is impossible.

    His problem would be finding experienced, competent replacements (don’t laugh at the back).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    Mr. Doethur, ah, you're right that it went to the members.

    But she did have a majority of MPs onside.

    A very poor second in the final MP ballot after being a dismal third in all previous ballots is not 'a majority of MPs.'
  • Mr. Doethur, two important points:
    1) I'm very sleepy.
    2) Didn't she end up with a majority due to ship-jumping MPs?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Doethur, ah, you're right that it went to the members.

    But she did have a majority of MPs onside.

    A very poor second in the final MP ballot after being a dismal third in all previous ballots is not 'a majority of MPs.'
    None of this is a great surprise, though.
    Had he been a decisive individual, he’d have forced Boris out months earlier. Might even have had a chance of turning things around at that point.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    Mr. Doethur, two important points:
    1) I'm very sleepy.
    2) Didn't she end up with a majority due to ship-jumping MPs?

    1) Fair dos

    2) she did get more endorsements during the summer but I don't recall them amounting to a 'majority.'
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173
    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Doethur, ah, you're right that it went to the members.

    But she did have a majority of MPs onside.

    A very poor second in the final MP ballot after being a dismal third in all previous ballots is not 'a majority of MPs.'
    And some MPs, like my own, jumped on Loopy's bandwagon very late, doubtless hoping for preferment as reward. Instead they've earned derision for their bad judgement!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @PippaCrerar: NEW: Former chair Jake Berry tells me Rishi Sunak should suspend Dominic Raab:

    “When you have 24 allegations outst… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621780965499576321
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @KevinASchofield: "I worked with Dom and don’t think he’s a bully but he has real anger management issues. You used to see it in meet… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621763529652031490
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165
    edited February 2023
    Jonathan said:

    I just get the impression that Sunak is remarkably detached from reality. He makes silly mistakes. Not malign, but not exactly good either.

    An old fashioned wally, desperate to impress and prove that he’s as good as his predecessors. Poor judgment. He could have been written by Dickens as a bit of a tragic figure.

    Sigh, this country is cursed with poor leaders.

    Sunak is Will from the Inbetweeners. The nerdy posh one having mingle with the ordinary folk with a mixture of incomprehension and fascination. Quite obviously Johnson is Jay.

    https://youtu.be/_gIHU4McdDI
  • TimS said:

    pm215 said:

    algarkirk said:

    #
    No. Hard graft; tough years; the real problems of statecraft. Cameron is a massive fail, sadly, on all fronts. Of his four successors Sunak has the merit of still being there doing the difficult stuff despite the (entirely justified) virtual impossibility of the Tories winning in 2024. He is the best of the bunch.

    He's only been PM less than four months, so it would be a surprise if he wasn't "still being there"! He hasn't had enough time in the job to get any tough years completed yet :-)


    He’s simply a classic type-3 PM: insufficiently strong to avoid being buffeted by events outside his control.
    Yepp. I’m afraid that sums it up. He’s bobbing about in a gale with no engine power and a smashed rudder, with communications down.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    I’m on the Tramadol. 100mg. Slow release

    So far so good. It is like very mild heroin
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,170
    edited February 2023

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,731
    Leon said:

    I’m on the Tramadol. 100mg. Slow release

    So far so good. It is like very mild heroin

    I gather the ‘down’ can be quite nasty!

    Good morning, one and all!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,927

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    1% for the SNP in London.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    I dunno. Ask one of the “Scotch Experts” you’re always banging on about.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Leon said:

    I’m on the Tramadol. 100mg. Slow release

    So far so good. It is like very mild heroin

    Take care. I hear it can be moreish.
  • Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    The fact they were dumb enough to think Brexit would help them kind of suggests why they might be poor in the first place.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
    edited February 2023
    Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    For quite a lot of them, I think as much as anything else voting to leave was a way of making rather a lot of rich people who have not thought about them for years very unhappy.

    In Stoke, for example, ISTR one person asked by the Mirror why he voted for Brexit said he thought his life couldn't get much worse and it would teach 'those rich bastards' a lesson.

    Much as Donald Trump's election was not in fact about support for his policies - such as they were - but a 'brick through the window' of the west and east coast Democrats.

    I wondered at the time whether it was a smart idea for Remain to parade lots of bankers saying they would be ruined if Brexit happened so it was a bad idea. I mean, in the context of 2008-16 that was giving people a positive reason to vote for it.

    Is it a good way of making policy? Clearly not.

    Is it entirely understandable given how badly we treat poor people in provincial areas? Oh, yes...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    I’m on the Tramadol. 100mg. Slow release

    So far so good. It is like very mild heroin

    Take care. I hear it can be moreish.
    Indeed. But I’m not getting that sense of danger

    I’ve done most drugs and this one is not going to enslave me (as things stand). I feel mellow, comfortable, slightly drowsy, affable. It’s like super mild Xanax plus a hit of gin. It’s not intense or euphoric
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    Is maintaining party funds the job of chairman?

    @bpolitics: With the next election looming, Rishi Sunak's Tory party is trailing in the polls — and facing a funding crisis so… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621794619934531584
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
    Scott_xP said:

    Is maintaining party funds the job of chairman?

    @bpolitics: With the next election looming, Rishi Sunak's Tory party is trailing in the polls — and facing a funding crisis so… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621794619934531584

    Not if you're Blair. He outsourced that part.

    Reasons why became clear later...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    The fact they were dumb enough to think Brexit would help them kind of suggests why they might be poor in the first place.
    That is quite offensively crass. Not every poor person is poor because they are stupid or lazy

    Some people just have really bad luck and nobody to help them. I cannot blame these people for rolling the Brexit dice. Any dice. Who wouldn’t?

    A shameful remark
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,782
    Scott_xP said:

    @PippaCrerar: NEW: Former chair Jake Berry tells me Rishi Sunak should suspend Dominic Raab:

    “When you have 24 allegations outst… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621780965499576321

    I wonder which poor sap will be taking it up the shitpipe trying to defend Raab on TV tomorrow morning. If it's Stupidly then DR might get another week or two. If it's an utter nothing like Gillian Keegan then the end really is nigh.

    As with Zahawi, Rishi will hang on until the maximum damage is done, look like he was forced into the sacking and thus get no credit.
  • DougSeal said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    I dunno. Ask one of the “Scotch Experts” you’re always banging on about.
    I think we’d agreed quite a while back that you bang on about ‘Scotch Experts’ more than me, if only in a whiney resentful manner.

    I applaud you for the rent free accommodation you generously provide for so many of us itinerant Jocks in your knapper.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779
    I initially misread that first headline as "Now top comedian Raab says 'can't tell Asians apart'".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
    Chris said:

    I initially misread that first headline as "Now top comedian Raab says 'can't tell Asians apart'".

    Well, that is a pretty epic misreading, as this has gone way beyond being funny.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    I dunno. Ask one of the “Scotch Experts” you’re always banging on about.
    I think we’d agreed quite a while back that you bang on about ‘Scotch Experts’ more than me, if only in a whiney resentful manner.

    I applaud you for the rent free accommodation you generously provide for so many of us itinerant Jocks in your knapper.
    Oooh! On my TUD daily whineathon bingo today I’ve got “rent free” (on the banned list too!) and “Jocks”. Wow! Your daily moans and desperate need to be oppressed by an internet message board are the gift that keeps giving.
  • Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    The fact they were dumb enough to think Brexit would help them kind of suggests why they might be poor in the first place.
    That is quite offensively crass. Not every poor person is poor because they are stupid or lazy

    Some people just have really bad luck and nobody to help them. I cannot blame these people for rolling the Brexit dice. Any dice. Who wouldn’t?

    A shameful remark
    Plus, whilst it is patently true that many many Brexit voters did so from a position of cluelessness, the blame isn't on them for not doing their own research, its on the scumbag politicians and media hawks propagating what they knew to be lies on the assumption that voters could be gaslit.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,724

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    In my experience, that issue generated by far the most number of poison pen letters received during the local elections in London last year, and it became a bit of a game for activists to compare notes about. But absolutely zero comments about it on the doorstep.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    It is hard to know. It doesn't seem to have dented the SNP or other parties associated with Self ID noticeably in the polls so far. For most people it is overshadowed by more direct issues.

    Someone who I have known for years has just come out as Trans. I hope it works for them, as it is a hard path to follow, but suppressing it had been causing real mental health problems. They are a sweet natured person, and either way it is tough.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    About a third of the stories on the front page of the Irish Times relate to migration/refugees/asylum

    https://www.irishtimes.com/

    They are chucking a national mental on this issue - which is now a crisis

    Is it bad to feel a certain schadenfreude? Our Celtic neighbours have delighted to sneer, with moral snootiness, at “racist Brexity Brits” for years

    Now when they get a proper migration problem of their own, they discover it’s all a lot harder than they thought. And lots of Irish people aren’t so welcoming. At all
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,844
    Leon said:

    I’m on the Tramadol. 100mg. Slow release

    So far so good. It is like very mild heroin

    And addictive
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    About a third of the stories on the front page of the Irish Times relate to migration/refugees/asylum

    https://www.irishtimes.com/

    They are chucking a national mental on this issue - which is now a crisis

    Is it bad to feel a certain schadenfreude? Our Celtic neighbours have delighted to sneer, with moral snootiness, at “racist Brexity Brits” for years

    Now when they get a proper migration problem of their own, they discover it’s all a lot harder than they thought. And lots of Irish people aren’t so welcoming. At all

    If there’s one thing this board has in common with the IT is the desperate need of England’s Celtic neighbours to prove now much nicer they are than the nasty English.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,517
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    I dunno. Ask one of the “Scotch Experts” you’re always banging on about.
    I think we’d agreed quite a while back that you bang on about ‘Scotch Experts’ more than me, if only in a whiney resentful manner.

    I applaud you for the rent free accommodation you generously provide for so many of us itinerant Jocks in your knapper.
    Oooh! On my TUD daily whineathon bingo today I’ve got “rent free” (on the banned list too!) and “Jocks”. Wow! Your daily moans and desperate need to be oppressed by an internet message board are the gift that keeps giving.
    Got your union jack panties in a bunch luv!
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,188
    edited February 2023
    Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    ISTR the more vociferous PB Leavers pointed out at the time (paraphrasing) "It might be poverty, but at least it is British poverty"

    Also, we should not forget the (in)famous "Short term pains for long term gains" with no indication of how long "short term" would be...

    So some PB Leavers were fine with this, but I suspect that few of them lived in sink estates in Hartlepool or Stoke.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Would that journalist be this Simon Tilford?


    “He was previously deputy director at the Centre for European Reform, running the organisation's economics programme. He has also been chief economist at the Tony Blair Institute and performed a number of roles at the Economist Group. Simon has acted as an advisor to the European Commission,”

    https://www.cer.eu/personnel/simon-tilford

    I believe so
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165
    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Yes, some important points here. The Seventies ended on an atmosphere of chaos, but that overshadows what was largely a successful decade:

    "Across developed economies, the 1970s was not a worse decade than the 1980s in terms of growth, productivity, and living standards. Even in the U.K., which was forced to borrow money from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in 1976, growth rates stacked up better in the 1970s than the 1980s, averaging 3.38 percent per year against 3.0 percent. The country ran a substantial trade deficit at the height of the so-called Barber Boom—named after the Conservative then-Chancellor Anthony Barber—but then surpluses for much of the rest of the decade. By contrast, the U.K. was running record trade deficits of almost 5 percent of GDP by 1989."

    I note that your much derided forecast of the return of Ms Truss is becoming more plausible. It could be the black swan of the year!

    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1621765834514350080?t=5PLEw42c47FK94QsBcz09g&s=19

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    Raab backed Sunak for the leadership over Truss and Sunak needed Braverman's backing him not Boris to become PM last autumn. That is why they are in Cabinet
  • Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    The fact they were dumb enough to think Brexit would help them kind of suggests why they might be poor in the first place.
    That is quite offensively crass. Not every poor person is poor because they are stupid or lazy

    Some people just have really bad luck and nobody to help them. I cannot blame these people for rolling the Brexit dice. Any dice. Who wouldn’t?

    A shameful remark
    Plus, whilst it is patently true that many many Brexit voters did so from a position of cluelessness, the blame isn't on them for not doing their own research, its on the scumbag politicians and media hawks propagating what they knew to be lies on the assumption that voters could be gaslit.
    If we're feeling charitable, the same goes for some of the politicians on the Brexit bandwagon. They didn't know that they were campaigning to make the bits of Britain that make stuff and grow stuff poorer. That wages might rise but prices could rise faster. That the people who created the single market weren't idiots, because the prize of frictionless trade across borders is worth more than the power to change some inconvenient regulations.

    They just allowed themselves to be soothed by mantras about "no downsides" or "Nike swooshes". None of that makes them fit to run the country, but it doesn't make them bad people.

    As for Rishi, he's inexperienced enough to not have known better, even if he's bright enough that he should have found out. But if I was talking to Mr and Mrs Sunak at a parents' evening, I think I'd be going down the "Rishi's not a bad lad, but he's made some bad choices and got in with the wrong crowd" line.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    edited February 2023

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    On those Scottish numbers the SNP voteshare is down on 2019 and with Unionist tactical voting the SNP will likely lose seats too
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited February 2023
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    I dunno. Ask one of the “Scotch Experts” you’re always banging on about.
    I think we’d agreed quite a while back that you bang on about ‘Scotch Experts’ more than me, if only in a whiney resentful manner.

    I applaud you for the rent free accommodation you generously provide for so many of us itinerant Jocks in your knapper.
    Oooh! On my TUD daily whineathon bingo today I’ve got “rent free” (on the banned list too!) and “Jocks”. Wow! Your daily moans and desperate need to be oppressed by an internet message board are the gift that keeps giving.
    Got your union jack panties in a bunch luv!
    The one thing we have in common is the desire for the dissolution is the U.K. Why we stay in a Union with xenophobes like you with a passionate hatred of us is beyond me. Go, we will await the deportations.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    edited February 2023

    Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    The fact they were dumb enough to think Brexit would help them kind of suggests why they might be poor in the first place.
    They were poor when we were in the EU and getting relatively poorer each year.

    Voting to change the status quo was the sensible thing to do,
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,419
    edited February 2023
    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    It is hard to know. It doesn't seem to have dented the SNP or other parties associated with Self ID noticeably in the polls so far. For most people it is overshadowed by more direct issues.

    Someone who I have known for years has just come out as Trans. I hope it works for them, as it is a hard path to follow, but suppressing it had been causing real mental health problems. They are a sweet natured person, and either way it is tough.
    QT has had a certain reputation for its audience selection in Scotland , but I don't know if it has improved as I never watch it. Edit: turned out that the BBC outsouirced the selection, with interesting results ...

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3853746/bbc-under-fire-failed-billy-mitchell-scots-ukip-question-time/

    Even to be in the selection pool implies a certain interest in politics, so I'm not sure how representative tthose interested in it are.

    On the second point - yes, agreed, absolutely. Was very surprised to be greeted by name by an unfamiliar lady when returning to my former workplace. On investigation she turned out to be a formerly male colleague! Seemed very cheerful, but it is an impressive commitment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    They did!

    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-sees-fastest-wage-rises-sectors-most-reliant-eu-workers-indeed-2022-02-25/
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Would that journalist be this Simon Tilford?


    “He was previously deputy director at the Centre for European Reform, running the organisation's economics programme. He has also been chief economist at the Tony Blair Institute and performed a number of roles at the Economist Group. Simon has acted as an advisor to the European Commission,”

    https://www.cer.eu/personnel/simon-tilford

    I believe so
    So, we can disregard his opinion for that reason? Is it an outcome of the referendum that only one side of the political spectrum be considered, close analysis of CV’s are needed, and anyone not a Spectator columnist can be binned. What, exactly, about his analysis to you disagree with? Or is it just who he is?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106

    They were poor when we were in the EU and getting relatively poorer each year.

    Voting to change the status quo was the sensible thing to do,

    So they can get poorer faster...

    Voting Leave was never the sensible choice, unless you were a disaster capitalist
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,948
    Leon said:

    I’m on the Tramadol. 100mg. Slow release

    So far so good. It is like very mild heroin

    Take care. I don't know why you would do this. I hope it works out ok.
  • DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    That article offers a pretty damning summary of our position:

    "The gap between the U.K.’s reality as portrayed by the dominant narrative of its economy’s performance and real life as experienced by its average citizen has widened to the breaking point."
    "Average U.K. real wages are now lower than 18 years ago, which is unprecedented in the country’s peacetime economic history."
    "the country has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States"
    "today’s young Britons face paying far more in tax than they will ever receive back in terms of pensions and other benefits."
    "Excess deaths have risen while Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."
    "The U.K. is also running a large, structural trade deficit."
    "business investment is running at the lowest level in the G-7."
    "The United Kingdom remains one of the most unequal developed countries to this day, according to the Equality Trust."
    " there is an abiding belief that the U.K. must be performing well because it is run how an economy should be run according to the dominant narrative"
    "This encourages denial about the scale of the country’s underperformance or a tendency to scapegoat others for it—be it the poor for being lazy or immigrants for consuming public services and scarce housing."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Would that journalist be this Simon Tilford?


    “He was previously deputy director at the Centre for European Reform, running the organisation's economics programme. He has also been chief economist at the Tony Blair Institute and performed a number of roles at the Economist Group. Simon has acted as an advisor to the European Commission,”

    https://www.cer.eu/personnel/simon-tilford

    I believe so
    So, we can disregard his opinion for that reason? Is it an outcome of the referendum that only one side of the political spectrum be considered, close analysis of CV’s are needed, and anyone not a Spectator columnist can be binned. What, exactly, about his analysis to you disagree with? Or is it just who he is?
    It’s hysterical Remoaner nonsense, from a Remoaner. I wouldn’t ignore it entirely, but I take it with a Russian salt mine of salt

    I do the same with articles by ultra-Brexiteers who are desperate to prove Brexit is already working brilliantly

    Just one sentence in that article gives you the flavour of the overall hyperbole

    “On most measures, the UK has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States,”

    QED
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Yes, some important points here. The Seventies ended on an atmosphere of chaos, but that overshadows what was largely a successful decade:

    "Across developed economies, the 1970s was not a worse decade than the 1980s in terms of growth, productivity, and living standards. Even in the U.K., which was forced to borrow money from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in 1976, growth rates stacked up better in the 1970s than the 1980s, averaging 3.38 percent per year against 3.0 percent. The country ran a substantial trade deficit at the height of the so-called Barber Boom—named after the Conservative then-Chancellor Anthony Barber—but then surpluses for much of the rest of the decade. By contrast, the U.K. was running record trade deficits of almost 5 percent of GDP by 1989."

    I note that your much derided forecast of the return of Ms Truss is becoming more plausible. It could be the black swan of the year!

    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1621765834514350080?t=5PLEw42c47FK94QsBcz09g&s=19

    Yes. I closed my ISA and took the equity out of my house to pile in on Truss. When I’m sunning myself in my luxury Barbados villa later this year thinking about where to take the Superyacht next I’ll be thinking of you all. Amazing no one else can see her master plan.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,671
    edited February 2023
    As there is clearly going to be reshuffling when Raab goes, who on earth ends up in the Cabinet? Is there anyone on the blue benches who deserves a go? Any competent junior ministers hiding below the crenellations who would be daft enough to come onto the bridge of the sinking ship? With metaphors so mixed as to be a cocktail in a trendy provincial bar doomed to close.
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    I dunno. Ask one of the “Scotch Experts” you’re always banging on about.
    I think we’d agreed quite a while back that you bang on about ‘Scotch Experts’ more than me, if only in a whiney resentful manner.

    I applaud you for the rent free accommodation you generously provide for so many of us itinerant Jocks in your knapper.
    Oooh! On my TUD daily whineathon bingo today I’ve got “rent free” (on the banned list too!) and “Jocks”. Wow! Your daily moans and desperate need to be oppressed by an internet message board are the gift that keeps giving.
    *Reclines contentedly on the chaise longue of my free accomodation, dribbling Tennents Super Lager and pakora sauce on its rather vulgar moquette and UJ cushions*
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Scott_xP said:

    They were poor when we were in the EU and getting relatively poorer each year.

    Voting to change the status quo was the sensible thing to do,

    So they can get poorer faster...

    Voting Leave was never the sensible choice, unless you were a disaster capitalist
    Voting leave was sensible for lots of people and they did. Those making a comfortable living out of the EU obviously didnt like the change and are now the Lumpenbourgeoisie complaining that they are hard done by and pretending they give a shit about the poor end of society.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just glancing at the data tables behind the latest polls from PeoplePolling and Techne.

    Looking at the former and the 2019 Conservative GE vote splits 37% Conservative, 29% Don't Know, 11% Labour and 9% Reform which seems out of line with other polls and may explain the lower Conservative vote share with this pollster.

    My eye is also drawn to the London regional sub sample (Lab 60%, LD 13%, Con 11%) and Scotland (SNP 49%, lab 21%, LD 17%, Con 5%). NO giggling in the cheap seats, please.

    On then to Techne and the 2019 Conservative vote splits 51% Conservative, 17% Labour, 11% Reform and 10% Don't Know.

    29% DKs from the 2019 Conservative vote share in one poll and just 10% in another - hmmm...

    It is perfectly feasible that the Scottish Liberal Democrats outpoll the Scottish Conservatives at the next GE (and have more seats*). SCon to SLD tactical unwind is going to be vicious in many rural areas.

    Funnily enough, YouGov - the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical subsamples - also has the SLDs on an uptick. An interesting innovation in their latest tables is that they have started publishing the data by country. This is not completely new, but I cannot recall YouGov doing it before:

    England
    Lab 50%
    Con 25%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 44%
    SLab 28%
    SCon 12%
    SLD 11%
    Grn 2%

    Wales
    WLab 46%
    WCon 24%
    PC 14%
    Ref 9%
    Grn 2%
    WLD 1%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 31st January - 1st February 2023)

    *Baxtered, those Scottish findings give (new boundaries):
    SNP 51 seats (+3)
    SLD 3 seats (+1)
    SLab 3 seats (+2)
    SCon 0 seats (-6)

    Independence 51 seats (+3)
    Subjugation 6 seats (-3)
    Ah, but will the SCons (apart from 3 of their MSPs) reap the benefits of being the only party on the side of the women’s changing room obsessives & the SLDs be punished for unanimously backing the GRA bill? I stupidly watched QT from Glasgow and the narrative from ra peepul that they’d bussed in was that it’s the defining issue of the age.

    I am genuinely interested to see how gender plays in a ge. It’s not unknown for JK Rowling to chat stupid shit about politics, I can see her making some big narcissistic statement about backing the only party that was on the side of women.
    I dunno. Ask one of the “Scotch Experts” you’re always banging on about.
    I think we’d agreed quite a while back that you bang on about ‘Scotch Experts’ more than me, if only in a whiney resentful manner.

    I applaud you for the rent free accommodation you generously provide for so many of us itinerant Jocks in your knapper.
    Oooh! On my TUD daily whineathon bingo today I’ve got “rent free” (on the banned list too!) and “Jocks”. Wow! Your daily moans and desperate need to be oppressed by an internet message board are the gift that keeps giving.
    *Reclines contentedly on the chaise longue of my free accomodation, dribbling Tennents Super Lager and pakora sauce on its rather vulgar moquette and UJ cushions*
    What’s a UJ cushion?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    That article offers a pretty damning summary of our position:

    "The gap between the U.K.’s reality as portrayed by the dominant narrative of its economy’s performance and real life as experienced by its average citizen has widened to the breaking point."
    "Average U.K. real wages are now lower than 18 years ago, which is unprecedented in the country’s peacetime economic history."
    "the country has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States"
    "today’s young Britons face paying far more in tax than they will ever receive back in terms of pensions and other benefits."
    "Excess deaths have risen while Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."
    "The U.K. is also running a large, structural trade deficit."
    "business investment is running at the lowest level in the G-7."
    "The United Kingdom remains one of the most unequal developed countries to this day, according to the Equality Trust."
    " there is an abiding belief that the U.K. must be performing well because it is run how an economy should be run according to the dominant narrative"
    "This encourages denial about the scale of the country’s underperformance or a tendency to scapegoat others for it—be it the poor for being lazy or immigrants for consuming public services and scarce housing."
    And just about every one of those comments applied when we were in the EU.

    This is a critique of those who have run the country for the last 25 years and who for the most part waned to remain in the EU because they were doing well out of it,
  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    edited February 2023
    That the liar Priti Patel has even been talked about as a possible chairman further illustrates what a mess the current Tory leadership finds itself in. A similar though not identical point could be made about Boris Johnson, whose chance of returning to the cabinet by the end of next week is at least higher than Patel's.

    The next person to be appointed to the cabinet who is not currently a member would be a much more interesting market than the next person to leave it.

    Next Tory chairman would also be a fascinating market.

    As for a reshuffle, the Raab case may well cause a head or two to roll in the civil service. "Case" being the operative word.

    Simon Case used to worked for the current prince of Wales when he had some other royal title.

    There's a question as to whether the petulant narcissistic dimwit on the throne can pull himself together enough to bury the hatchet with Johnson who had the temerity to call him "condescending" over Rwanda. I doubt the 74yo can. That would mean growing up.

    Then again, a hatchet can fit in many backs and the times they are a-changing. The sharp bits of the state tend to be populated by royalist loyalists, but nowadays they can't even run a f***ing seminar in Cambridge that they can be sure is closed to Russian intelligence, so... see the previous sentence.

    Talking of the civil service, if we widen our perspective - and noting the Richard Sharp BBC and Boris story in passing - there's a non-front page story worth taking note of. Magistrates seem to have started to resign rather than obey orders to rubber-stamp warrants sought by utility companies to enter homes forcibly to install "prepayment meters". (Aka "your cash or your leccy" highwayman boxes.)

    Don't say "mafia state"... But clearly magistrates don't feel as though they're in a position to say no. It's do what you're told by the Ministry of Justice on behalf of Big Energy or leave.

    What was it that Benito Mussolini said about a cigarette paper?

    Where I disagree with many analysts is that I don't draw a direct line from Tory problems at senior leadership level to Tory election defeat. Sure, if there were a general election tomorrow, they'd get creamed. But there is ample time. Sink a few refugee boats, deliver some polarising policies with associated buzzphrases and pictures and video clips, and it would take, what, 10 days to reach Con maj 50 level in the polls?
  • DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Yes, some important points here. The Seventies ended on an atmosphere of chaos, but that overshadows what was largely a successful decade:

    "Across developed economies, the 1970s was not a worse decade than the 1980s in terms of growth, productivity, and living standards. Even in the U.K., which was forced to borrow money from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in 1976, growth rates stacked up better in the 1970s than the 1980s, averaging 3.38 percent per year against 3.0 percent. The country ran a substantial trade deficit at the height of the so-called Barber Boom—named after the Conservative then-Chancellor Anthony Barber—but then surpluses for much of the rest of the decade. By contrast, the U.K. was running record trade deficits of almost 5 percent of GDP by 1989."

    I note that your much derided forecast of the return of Ms Truss is becoming more plausible. It could be the black swan of the year!

    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1621765834514350080?t=5PLEw42c47FK94QsBcz09g&s=19

    Yes. I closed my ISA and took the equity out of my house to pile in on Truss. When I’m sunning myself in my luxury Barbados villa later this year thinking about where to take the Superyacht next I’ll be thinking of you all. Amazing no one else can see her master plan.
    It shows how odd things have become - I cannot tell whether this is parody or not :smile:

    Truss might think she has the answers, but if she proved anything then it was how utterly unsuitable she was for public office let alone PM.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106

    Voting leave was sensible for lots of people and they did.

    Which is why they are now delighted, and Brexit is more popular than ever.

    Oh, wait...

    Brexit is a disaster. It was not sensible to vote for disaster.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    That article offers a pretty damning summary of our position:

    "The gap between the U.K.’s reality as portrayed by the dominant narrative of its economy’s performance and real life as experienced by its average citizen has widened to the breaking point."
    "Average U.K. real wages are now lower than 18 years ago, which is unprecedented in the country’s peacetime economic history."
    "the country has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States"
    "today’s young Britons face paying far more in tax than they will ever receive back in terms of pensions and other benefits."
    "Excess deaths have risen while Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."
    "The U.K. is also running a large, structural trade deficit."
    "business investment is running at the lowest level in the G-7."
    "The United Kingdom remains one of the most unequal developed countries to this day, according to the Equality Trust."
    " there is an abiding belief that the U.K. must be performing well because it is run how an economy should be run according to the dominant narrative"
    "This encourages denial about the scale of the country’s underperformance or a tendency to scapegoat others for it—be it the poor for being lazy or immigrants for consuming public services and scarce housing."
    And just about every one of those comments applied when we were in the EU.

    This is a critique of those who have run the country for the last 25 years and who for the most part waned to remain in the EU because they were doing well out of it,
    Who mentioned Brexit before you did? It’s only a small part of the critique. Brexit just makes the underlying problems worse.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    That article offers a pretty damning summary of our position:

    "The gap between the U.K.’s reality as portrayed by the dominant narrative of its economy’s performance and real life as experienced by its average citizen has widened to the breaking point."
    "Average U.K. real wages are now lower than 18 years ago, which is unprecedented in the country’s peacetime economic history."
    "the country has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States"
    "today’s young Britons face paying far more in tax than they will ever receive back in terms of pensions and other benefits."
    "Excess deaths have risen while Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."
    "The U.K. is also running a large, structural trade deficit."
    "business investment is running at the lowest level in the G-7."
    "The United Kingdom remains one of the most unequal developed countries to this day, according to the Equality Trust."
    " there is an abiding belief that the U.K. must be performing well because it is run how an economy should be run according to the dominant narrative"
    "This encourages denial about the scale of the country’s underperformance or a tendency to scapegoat others for it—be it the poor for being lazy or immigrants for consuming public services and scarce housing."
    So much of that article is immediately, provably, and irresponsibly wrong. Only a cretin like you or @DougSeal would swallow it whole

    Just one example (amongst many):

    “Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."


    Reality?

    “According to preliminary 2021 data, the COVID-19 pandemic that started in 2020 has had a negative effect with life expectancy at birth declining in almost half the EU Member States in 2021. The largest decreases have been estimated in Slovakia and Bulgaria (-2.2 years compared with 2020), followed by Latvia (-2.1) and Estonia (-2.0).
    Compared with the pre-pandemic year of 2019, the overall effect on life expectancies is still negative in all EU Member States except Luxembourg (+0.1), Malta and Sweden (same level in 2019 and 2021). In some cases, life expectancies have further worsened in 2021, leading to an estimated overall loss of more than 2 years. The largest decreases compared with 2019 were registered in Bulgaria (-3.7), Slovakia (-3.0), and Romania (-2.7). “




  • Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    The fact they were dumb enough to think Brexit would help them kind of suggests why they might be poor in the first place.
    That is quite offensively crass. Not every poor person is poor because they are stupid or lazy

    Some people just have really bad luck and nobody to help them. I cannot blame these people for rolling the Brexit dice. Any dice. Who wouldn’t?

    A shameful remark
    Plus, whilst it is patently true that many many Brexit voters did so from a position of cluelessness, the blame isn't on them for not doing their own research, its on the scumbag politicians and media hawks propagating what they knew to be lies on the assumption that voters could be gaslit.
    If we're feeling charitable, the same goes for some of the politicians on the Brexit bandwagon. They didn't know that they were campaigning to make the bits of Britain that make stuff and grow stuff poorer. That wages might rise but prices could rise faster. That the people who created the single market weren't idiots, because the prize of frictionless trade across borders is worth more than the power to change some inconvenient regulations.

    They just allowed themselves to be soothed by mantras about "no downsides" or "Nike swooshes". None of that makes them fit to run the country, but it doesn't make them bad people.

    As for Rishi, he's inexperienced enough to not have known better, even if he's bright enough that he should have found out. But if I was talking to Mr and Mrs Sunak at a parents' evening, I think I'd be going down the "Rishi's not a bad lad, but he's made some bad choices and got in with the wrong crowd" line.
    Some Tories openly demanded the smashing of what was left of manufacturing and agriculture. BR on here is still demanding that we let market forces shut down our farms because the land could more productively used. Presumably for housing as he wants to concrete everything over.

    Article in the local news a few days back from the local fishing body accepting that they allowed themselves to be used as the "poster boys" for Brexit. “But a lot have now reassessed their enthusiasm for Brexit because it has delivered nothing.

    “It has left some very negative legacies and hasn’t provided any of the positives we were promised.”

    Despite this, local Tory wazzock David Duguid goes around sneeringly insisting that Brexit has been brilliant for the fishing ports of Fraserburgh and Peterhead despite the views of the actual fishing industry. It is this "your lived experience is wrong, the evidence is wrong, its been brilliant and if you disagree it must be your fault" Tory attitude which will have them smashed at the general election.

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/5342023/mike-park-brexit/
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Scott_xP said:

    They were poor when we were in the EU and getting relatively poorer each year.

    Voting to change the status quo was the sensible thing to do,

    So they can get poorer faster...

    Voting Leave was never the sensible choice, unless you were a disaster capitalist
    Voting leave was sensible for lots of people and they did. Those making a comfortable living out of the EU obviously didnt like the change and are now the Lumpenbourgeoisie complaining that they are hard done by and pretending they give a shit about the poor end of society.
    “Comfortable living out of the EU”? What, like being able to sell goods there unimpeded? Doesn’t everyone benefit from that?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    These were the people supposed to benefit from Brexit, I thought ?

    “The poorest fifth of the population are now much poorer [in the UK] than most of the poorest countries in central and eastern Europe,” says
    @MyStephanomics. “They would be better off in quite poor countries in the European Union.”

    https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

    For quite a lot of them, I think as much as anything else voting to leave was a way of making rather a lot of rich people who have not thought about them for years very unhappy.

    In Stoke, for example, ISTR one person asked by the Mirror why he voted for Brexit said he thought his life couldn't get much worse and it would teach 'those rich bastards' a lesson.

    Much as Donald Trump's election was not in fact about support for his policies - such as they were - but a 'brick through the window' of the west and east coast Democrats.

    I wondered at the time whether it was a smart idea for Remain to parade lots of bankers saying they would be ruined if Brexit happened so it was a bad idea. I mean, in the context of 2008-16 that was giving people a positive reason to vote for it.

    Is it a good way of making policy? Clearly not.

    Is it entirely understandable given how badly we treat poor people in provincial areas? Oh, yes...
    Given that explicit policy was that their concerns and welfare were secondary to “London” - see official Treasury policy/modelling - yes.

    Stuart Rose wobbling chins while declaring that Brexit would cause pay rises was a defining moment. As a Remainer, I nearly started punching furniture at that one.

    For some reason this reminds me of he occasion that someone attacked the horse I was riding. Instead of bolting, the horse kicked him into a different time zone. Is it a thing to celebrate - no. Is it understandable - yes.

    This is why Starmer is being very cautious on freedom of movement. There are many people who believe that this will bring their wages back to minimum wage.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Would that journalist be this Simon Tilford?


    “He was previously deputy director at the Centre for European Reform, running the organisation's economics programme. He has also been chief economist at the Tony Blair Institute and performed a number of roles at the Economist Group. Simon has acted as an advisor to the European Commission,”

    https://www.cer.eu/personnel/simon-tilford

    I believe so
    So, we can disregard his opinion for that reason? Is it an outcome of the referendum that only one side of the political spectrum be considered, close analysis of CV’s are needed, and anyone not a Spectator columnist can be binned. What, exactly, about his analysis to you disagree with? Or is it just who he is?
    It’s hysterical Remoaner nonsense, from a Remoaner. I wouldn’t ignore it entirely, but I take it with a Russian salt mine of salt

    I do the same with articles by ultra-Brexiteers who are desperate to prove Brexit is already working brilliantly

    Just one sentence in that article gives you the flavour of the overall hyperbole

    “On most measures, the UK has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States,”

    QED
    Quite apart from the fact that statement is true, let’s ignore it and ask what else is actually factually incorrect in there. We are the only European country with a declining life expectancy and we have the lowest inward investment of any G7 nation. Simply labelling him a “Remoaner” and “ hysterical” does not stop him being right. Which is is. The country is a mess, and Brexiteer boosterism from people like you can’t detract from the fact you made a catastrophic error, and sold it to the country. Which is now suffering from severe buyer’s remorse.
    You’re just dim


  • DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    That article offers a pretty damning summary of our position:

    "The gap between the U.K.’s reality as portrayed by the dominant narrative of its economy’s performance and real life as experienced by its average citizen has widened to the breaking point."
    "Average U.K. real wages are now lower than 18 years ago, which is unprecedented in the country’s peacetime economic history."
    "the country has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States"
    "today’s young Britons face paying far more in tax than they will ever receive back in terms of pensions and other benefits."
    "Excess deaths have risen while Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."
    "The U.K. is also running a large, structural trade deficit."
    "business investment is running at the lowest level in the G-7."
    "The United Kingdom remains one of the most unequal developed countries to this day, according to the Equality Trust."
    " there is an abiding belief that the U.K. must be performing well because it is run how an economy should be run according to the dominant narrative"
    "This encourages denial about the scale of the country’s underperformance or a tendency to scapegoat others for it—be it the poor for being lazy or immigrants for consuming public services and scarce housing."
    And just about every one of those comments applied when we were in the EU.

    This is a critique of those who have run the country for the last 25 years and who for the most part waned to remain in the EU because they were doing well out of it,
    Which is why I cut off the paragraph about Brexit, didn't mention it, and didn't use it to attack the Tories. We have been in multi-decade decline. I have said this on here many many times. People should vote out the Tories because they are incompetent crooks. But they shouldn't expect a miraculous turnaround under Labour as they don't want to face up to our problems either,
  • DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Would that journalist be this Simon Tilford?


    “He was previously deputy director at the Centre for European Reform, running the organisation's economics programme. He has also been chief economist at the Tony Blair Institute and performed a number of roles at the Economist Group. Simon has acted as an advisor to the European Commission,”

    https://www.cer.eu/personnel/simon-tilford

    I believe so
    So, we can disregard his opinion for that reason? Is it an outcome of the referendum that only one side of the political spectrum be considered, close analysis of CV’s are needed, and anyone not a Spectator columnist can be binned. What, exactly, about his analysis to you disagree with? Or is it just who he is?
    It’s hysterical Remoaner nonsense, from a Remoaner. I wouldn’t ignore it entirely, but I take it with a Russian salt mine of salt

    I do the same with articles by ultra-Brexiteers who are desperate to prove Brexit is already working brilliantly

    Just one sentence in that article gives you the flavour of the overall hyperbole

    “On most measures, the UK has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States,”

    QED
    Quite apart from the fact that statement is true, let’s ignore it and ask what else is actually factually incorrect in there. We are the only European country with a declining life expectancy and we have the lowest inward investment of any G7 nation. Simply labelling him a “Remoaner” and “ hysterical” does not stop him being right. Which is is. The country is a mess, and Brexiteer boosterism from people like you can’t detract from the fact you made a catastrophic error, and sold it to the country. Which is now suffering from severe buyer’s remorse.
    The difference between opinion/politics and objective reality.

    In politics, ignoring X because of who X is is a reasonable heuristic. Not only does it work as a debating point, but it's a quick way of deciding who to listen to, and it's better than nothing.

    But if we're thinking about reality, it doesn't matter who is saying it. What matters is whether their description matches what's going on. Ignoring someone just because of who they are doesn't get you closer to the truth.

    Part of our problem in Britain (and elsewhere, probably) is too much politics, not enough reality in government.
  • Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    That article offers a pretty damning summary of our position:

    "The gap between the U.K.’s reality as portrayed by the dominant narrative of its economy’s performance and real life as experienced by its average citizen has widened to the breaking point."
    "Average U.K. real wages are now lower than 18 years ago, which is unprecedented in the country’s peacetime economic history."
    "the country has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States"
    "today’s young Britons face paying far more in tax than they will ever receive back in terms of pensions and other benefits."
    "Excess deaths have risen while Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."
    "The U.K. is also running a large, structural trade deficit."
    "business investment is running at the lowest level in the G-7."
    "The United Kingdom remains one of the most unequal developed countries to this day, according to the Equality Trust."
    " there is an abiding belief that the U.K. must be performing well because it is run how an economy should be run according to the dominant narrative"
    "This encourages denial about the scale of the country’s underperformance or a tendency to scapegoat others for it—be it the poor for being lazy or immigrants for consuming public services and scarce housing."
    So much of that article is immediately, provably, and irresponsibly wrong. Only a cretin like you or @DougSeal would swallow it whole

    Just one example (amongst many):

    “Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."


    Reality?

    “According to preliminary 2021 data, the COVID-19 pandemic that started in 2020 has had a negative effect with life expectancy at birth declining in almost half the EU Member States in 2021. The largest decreases have been estimated in Slovakia and Bulgaria (-2.2 years compared with 2020), followed by Latvia (-2.1) and Estonia (-2.0).
    Compared with the pre-pandemic year of 2019, the overall effect on life expectancies is still negative in all EU Member States except Luxembourg (+0.1), Malta and Sweden (same level in 2019 and 2021). In some cases, life expectancies have further worsened in 2021, leading to an estimated overall loss of more than 2 years. The largest decreases compared with 2019 were registered in Bulgaria (-3.7), Slovakia (-3.0), and Romania (-2.7). “




    Haven't bothered to check his data or yours. But lets assume you are right - does that mean that the rest of it is wrong? We ARE sliding down shit alley, have been for decades and the evidence is surely so visible that even your tramadol-addled brain can recognise it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Would that journalist be this Simon Tilford?


    “He was previously deputy director at the Centre for European Reform, running the organisation's economics programme. He has also been chief economist at the Tony Blair Institute and performed a number of roles at the Economist Group. Simon has acted as an advisor to the European Commission,”

    https://www.cer.eu/personnel/simon-tilford

    I believe so
    So, we can disregard his opinion for that reason? Is it an outcome of the referendum that only one side of the political spectrum be considered, close analysis of CV’s are needed, and anyone not a Spectator columnist can be binned. What, exactly, about his analysis to you disagree with? Or is it just who he is?
    It’s hysterical Remoaner nonsense, from a Remoaner. I wouldn’t ignore it entirely, but I take it with a Russian salt mine of salt

    I do the same with articles by ultra-Brexiteers who are desperate to prove Brexit is already working brilliantly

    Just one sentence in that article gives you the flavour of the overall hyperbole

    “On most measures, the UK has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States,”

    QED
    Quite apart from the fact that statement is true, let’s ignore it and ask what else is actually factually incorrect in there. We are the only European country with a declining life expectancy and we have the lowest inward investment of any G7 nation. Simply labelling him a “Remoaner” and “ hysterical” does not stop him being right. Which is is. The country is a mess, and Brexiteer boosterism from people like you can’t detract from the fact you made a catastrophic error, and sold it to the country. Which is now suffering from severe buyer’s remorse.
    According to Wiki the UK ranks 3rd in the world for FDI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_received_FDI

    This is nothing to be proud of, however, because unless it is matched by counterbalancing investment abroad, and recently it has not been, it is simply a function of our desperately poor balance of trade.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    That article offers a pretty damning summary of our position:

    "The gap between the U.K.’s reality as portrayed by the dominant narrative of its economy’s performance and real life as experienced by its average citizen has widened to the breaking point."
    "Average U.K. real wages are now lower than 18 years ago, which is unprecedented in the country’s peacetime economic history."
    "the country has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States"
    "today’s young Britons face paying far more in tax than they will ever receive back in terms of pensions and other benefits."
    "Excess deaths have risen while Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."
    "The U.K. is also running a large, structural trade deficit."
    "business investment is running at the lowest level in the G-7."
    "The United Kingdom remains one of the most unequal developed countries to this day, according to the Equality Trust."
    " there is an abiding belief that the U.K. must be performing well because it is run how an economy should be run according to the dominant narrative"
    "This encourages denial about the scale of the country’s underperformance or a tendency to scapegoat others for it—be it the poor for being lazy or immigrants for consuming public services and scarce housing."
    And just about every one of those comments applied when we were in the EU.

    This is a critique of those who have run the country for the last 25 years and who for the most part waned to remain in the EU because they were doing well out of it,
    Who mentioned Brexit before you did? It’s only a small part of the critique. Brexit just makes the underlying problems worse.
    Good,

    I see you share my view that Brexit doesnt have much impact and that most of the issues we face have been around for a long time. and not addressed by the political parties.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    I’m actually going to make a formal request to the moderators that we introduce some kind of minimum IQ threshold for commenters. I don’t see how this retarded, mortifying, intellectually 20-watt drooling from the likes of @DougSeal and @RochdalePioneers benefits the site

    It’s like you’re playing a nice game of football with your mates, in the park, then a sort of dwarvish gibbon runs on to the pitch and tries to eat the ball. It’s embarrassing for Doug and Rochdale, as much as anything else
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 370
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Would that journalist be this Simon Tilford?


    “He was previously deputy director at the Centre for European Reform, running the organisation's economics programme. He has also been chief economist at the Tony Blair Institute and performed a number of roles at the Economist Group. Simon has acted as an advisor to the European Commission,”

    https://www.cer.eu/personnel/simon-tilford

    I believe so
    So, we can disregard his opinion for that reason? Is it an outcome of the referendum that only one side of the political spectrum be considered, close analysis of CV’s are needed, and anyone not a Spectator columnist can be binned. What, exactly, about his analysis to you disagree with? Or is it just who he is?
    It’s hysterical Remoaner nonsense, from a Remoaner. I wouldn’t ignore it entirely, but I take it with a Russian salt mine of salt

    I do the same with articles by ultra-Brexiteers who are desperate to prove Brexit is already working brilliantly

    Just one sentence in that article gives you the flavour of the overall hyperbole

    “On most measures, the UK has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States,”

    QED
    Quite apart from the fact that statement is true, let’s ignore it and ask what else is actually factually incorrect in there. We are the only European country with a declining life expectancy and we have the lowest inward investment of any G7 nation. Simply labelling him a “Remoaner” and “ hysterical” does not stop him being right. Which is is. The country is a mess, and Brexiteer boosterism from people like you can’t detract from the fact you made a catastrophic error, and sold it to the country. Which is now suffering from severe buyer’s remorse.
    The reality is now that that the UK has left the West, and it is now in the same boat as Russia and China in the sense that it is in thrall to a political ideology - Brexit - that overpowers economic logic.

    Rishi Sunak is a weak prime minister, perhaps. Or perhaps he is in a position where he can afford not to care too much what people think of him. After all, he is very rich, and he took the job of prime minister due to the fact that there were really no other competent candidates available.

    If Sunak is a weak PM, you have to look at who elected him. He was elected by Conservative MPs, backed by Conservative party members and ultimately the British electorate.

    The UK is now a Brexit state, just as China and Russsia are authoritarian Communist or former Communist states. This is the real issue, and complaining about Sunak is a form of distraction.

    The Brexit state is kept in place by the convenience of the two main political parties, like the voting system. Frankly, it is difficult to see a positive future for the UK.
  • DJ41a said:

    That the liar Priti Patel has even been talked about as a possible chairman further illustrates what a mess the current Tory leadership finds itself in. A similar though not identical point could be made about Boris Johnson, whose chance of returning to the cabinet by the end of next week is at least higher than Patel's.

    The next person to be appointed to the cabinet who is not currently a member would be a much more interesting market than the next person to leave it.

    Next Tory chairman would also be a fascinating market.

    As for a reshuffle, the Raab case may well cause a head or two to roll in the civil service. "Case" being the operative word.

    Simon Case used to worked for the current prince of Wales when he had some other royal title.

    There's a question as to whether the petulant narcissistic dimwit on the throne can pull himself together enough to bury the hatchet with Johnson who had the temerity to call him "condescending" over Rwanda. I doubt the 74yo can. That would mean growing up.

    Then again, a hatchet can fit in many backs and the times they are a-changing. The sharp bits of the state tend to be populated by royalist loyalists, but nowadays they can't even run a f***ing seminar in Cambridge that they can be sure is closed to Russian intelligence, so... see the previous sentence.

    Talking of the civil service, if we widen our perspective - and noting the Richard Sharp BBC and Boris story in passing - there's a non-front page story worth taking note of. Magistrates seem to have started to resign rather than obey orders to rubber-stamp warrants sought by utility companies to enter homes forcibly to install "prepayment meters". (Aka "your cash or your leccy" highwayman boxes.)

    Don't say "mafia state"... But clearly magistrates don't feel as though they're in a position to say no. It's do what you're told by the Ministry of Justice on behalf of Big Energy or leave.

    What was it that Benito Mussolini said about a cigarette paper?

    Where I disagree with many analysts is that I don't draw a direct line from Tory problems at senior leadership level to Tory election defeat. Sure, if there were a general election tomorrow, they'd get creamed. But there is ample time. Sink a few refugee boats, deliver some polarising policies with associated buzzphrases and pictures and video clips, and it would take, what, 10 days to reach Con maj 50 level in the polls?

    Liar? Patel was a traitor. Conducting her own private foreign policy whilst supposedly a minister of the crown contrary to the policy of the government. That she was then brought back to become the smirking monstrosity that bullied people and then smirked some more was just what she did AFTER the worst offence.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    Would that journalist be this Simon Tilford?


    “He was previously deputy director at the Centre for European Reform, running the organisation's economics programme. He has also been chief economist at the Tony Blair Institute and performed a number of roles at the Economist Group. Simon has acted as an advisor to the European Commission,”

    https://www.cer.eu/personnel/simon-tilford

    I believe so
    So, we can disregard his opinion for that reason? Is it an outcome of the referendum that only one side of the political spectrum be considered, close analysis of CV’s are needed, and anyone not a Spectator columnist can be binned. What, exactly, about his analysis to you disagree with? Or is it just who he is?
    It’s hysterical Remoaner nonsense, from a Remoaner. I wouldn’t ignore it entirely, but I take it with a Russian salt mine of salt

    I do the same with articles by ultra-Brexiteers who are desperate to prove Brexit is already working brilliantly

    Just one sentence in that article gives you the flavour of the overall hyperbole

    “On most measures, the UK has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States,”

    QED
    Absurd given Poland, Italy, Canada etc don't even have non contributory unemployment benefits like the UK does.

    Neither does the US, nor even public healthcare, let alone an NHS!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Britain Is Much Worse Off Than It Understands

    Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” (£)

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/03/britain-worse-off-1970s/

    That article offers a pretty damning summary of our position:

    "The gap between the U.K.’s reality as portrayed by the dominant narrative of its economy’s performance and real life as experienced by its average citizen has widened to the breaking point."
    "Average U.K. real wages are now lower than 18 years ago, which is unprecedented in the country’s peacetime economic history."
    "the country has the most limited welfare state of any developed country, including the United States"
    "today’s young Britons face paying far more in tax than they will ever receive back in terms of pensions and other benefits."
    "Excess deaths have risen while Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."
    "The U.K. is also running a large, structural trade deficit."
    "business investment is running at the lowest level in the G-7."
    "The United Kingdom remains one of the most unequal developed countries to this day, according to the Equality Trust."
    " there is an abiding belief that the U.K. must be performing well because it is run how an economy should be run according to the dominant narrative"
    "This encourages denial about the scale of the country’s underperformance or a tendency to scapegoat others for it—be it the poor for being lazy or immigrants for consuming public services and scarce housing."
    So much of that article is immediately, provably, and irresponsibly wrong. Only a cretin like you or @DougSeal would swallow it whole

    Just one example (amongst many):

    “Britain is the only country in Europe suffering from declining life expectancy."


    Reality?

    “According to preliminary 2021 data, the COVID-19 pandemic that started in 2020 has had a negative effect with life expectancy at birth declining in almost half the EU Member States in 2021. The largest decreases have been estimated in Slovakia and Bulgaria (-2.2 years compared with 2020), followed by Latvia (-2.1) and Estonia (-2.0).
    Compared with the pre-pandemic year of 2019, the overall effect on life expectancies is still negative in all EU Member States except Luxembourg (+0.1), Malta and Sweden (same level in 2019 and 2021). In some cases, life expectancies have further worsened in 2021, leading to an estimated overall loss of more than 2 years. The largest decreases compared with 2019 were registered in Bulgaria (-3.7), Slovakia (-3.0), and Romania (-2.7). “




    Haven't bothered to check his data or yours. But lets assume you are right - does that mean that the rest of it is wrong? We ARE sliding down shit alley, have been for decades and the evidence is surely so visible that even your tramadol-addled brain can recognise it.
    I knew it was probably bollocks as soon as I saw it. You didn’t. Ask yourself why
  • Leon said:

    I’m actually going to make a formal request to the moderators that we introduce some kind of minimum IQ threshold for commenters. I don’t see how this retarded, mortifying, intellectually 20-watt drooling from the likes of @DougSeal and @RochdalePioneers benefits the site

    It’s like you’re playing a nice game of football with your mates, in the park, then a sort of dwarvish gibbon runs on to the pitch and tries to eat the ball. It’s embarrassing for Doug and Rochdale, as much as anything else

    Can I counter that with a call for drugs and alcohol testing before being allowed to post? Though in your case we probably need to test for wearing tin foil hats too.

    Mwaa. Your move next sweetie...
This discussion has been closed.