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The Tories should sack their ad agency – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 22 in General
The Tories should sack their ad agency – politicalbetting.com

It took me less than a minute to establish that Lynch's union, the RMT, is NOT affiliated to the Labour party. The full list of those that are is here https://t.co/YaHqD7Bl8qA epic fail? https://t.co/gMyzmQxRth

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,664
    FPT:

    HYUFD said:
    UK voters are the second most supportive of Ukraine in the world.

    Most nations voters back Ukraine too but voters in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Vietnam prefer Russia

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1615307393264455682?s=20&t=P_3e392zQ_zpYiHPhKsPLg

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    I can understand that if you're not in the region the whole thing probably just feels very distant and nowhere near as visceral. So you can then express views based on overall vibes about the West and non-West. Europeans have generally had a similar reaction to most unrest and civil wars in Latin America. The default assumption is that both sides must be to blame
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    edited January 17
    ASLEF are though and they have just rejected an 8% payrise to go on strike again

    https://aslef.org.uk/publications/aslef-will-continue-affiliate-labour-party

    CWU postal strikers also still affiliated to Labour
  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,664
    On topic I very much doubt the Tories care whether they're correct or not. Truth hasn't generally been much of a priority.

    The objective is to plant mental images in gullible voters' heads. Remember the Starmer letting off Saville thing?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,682
    Third, like the Tories in a just universe
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    More relevant to have Starmer in the Union barons' pocket like the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s now too than Sturgeon's again given polls suggest a Labour majority
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,241
    TimS said:

    On topic I very much doubt the Tories care whether they're correct or not. Truth hasn't generally been much of a priority.

    The objective is to plant mental images in gullible voters' heads. Remember the Starmer letting off Saville thing?

    Yes. In an ideal world the voters would mark the card of the Tories for being either incompetent, or dishonest, and parties would be dissuaded from such behaviour.

    We can see by the behaviour of the parties that the voters do not penalise dishonesty enough to lead to a high standard of honesty.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 11,036
    Maybe this as an effort at replicating the ad on the side of the bus.
    Or maybe they're just morons. Who knows?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,682
    HYUFD said:

    More relevant to have Starmer in the Union barons' pocket like the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s now too than Sturgeon's again given polls suggest a Labour majority

    Back in the 70s it was easy to see the union bosses as scary, and to back the Tories because they promised to curb their ability to disrupt our lives.

    Nowadays, we have the banks, the hedge funds, private equity, the foreign (mostly Russian) oligarchs, the Chinese ‘investors’ sitting on London property sitting empty, as well as the various proto-fascist interest groups surrounding the Tory party, to worry about.

    Somehow the unions don’t seem so bad.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 1,478
    HYUFD said:

    More relevant to have Starmer in the Union barons' pocket like the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s now too than Sturgeon's again given polls suggest a Labour majority

    The Labour ads write themselves - "Tories caused this mess, and want you to pay for it"

    Why should workers and average people have to stomach a lower quality of living due to government failures? This is why the Tories are done - the public saw the Tories back Truss, saw her budget almost crash the markets, and now we are just expected to be poorer because of it. I think most people don't like that and that's why they support the unions / strikes. Tories caused the mess in the NHS, and want you to pay for it. Tories caused mortgages to spike, and want you to pay for it. Tories broke the trains, and want you to pay for it. The same message, across all the calamities, will sell itself.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,976
    HYUFD said:

    More relevant to have Starmer in the Union barons' pocket like the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s now too than Sturgeon's again given polls suggest a Labour majority

    A more "relevant" untruth then. You don't sugarcoat, I'll give you that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,976
    HYUFD said:

    ASLEF are though and they have just rejected an 8% payrise to go on strike again

    https://aslef.org.uk/publications/aslef-will-continue-affiliate-labour-party

    CWU postal strikers also still affiliated to Labour

    4%
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 43,012
    AN epic fail!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,811
    edited January 17
    148grss said:

    HYUFD said:

    More relevant to have Starmer in the Union barons' pocket like the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s now too than Sturgeon's again given polls suggest a Labour majority

    The Labour ads write themselves - "Tories caused this mess, and want you to pay for it"

    Why should workers and average people have to stomach a lower quality of living due to government failures? This is why the Tories are done - the public saw the Tories back Truss, saw her budget almost crash the markets, and now we are just expected to be poorer because of it. I think most people don't like that and that's why they support the unions / strikes. Tories caused the mess in the NHS, and want you to pay for it. Tories caused mortgages to spike, and want you to pay for it. Tories broke the trains, and want you to pay for it. The same message, across all the calamities, will sell itself.
    They also caused the mess in health sectors across Europe and the world, and mortgages spiking in Europe, Canada, Australia, the US etc etc etc. Is there no limit to their power?

    I'm abroad now, and have been for a month, and I must say travelling certainly makes you realise how many other countries are going through times as difficult, or more so, than we are.

    I don't think Truss's bduget, most of which was never implemented, had any lasting effect at all. The problems are caused by spiralling global commodities prices, together with poor demand management in the US.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 43,012
    TimS said:

    FPT:

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    Though their ally China supports Russia.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 43,012
    HYUFD said:

    More relevant to have Starmer in the Union barons' pocket like the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s now too than Sturgeon's again given polls suggest a Labour majority

    No Tory poll leads for 1 year, 1 month and 11 days.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,121
    edited January 17
    TimS said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:
    UK voters are the second most supportive of Ukraine in the world.

    Most nations voters back Ukraine too but voters in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Vietnam prefer Russia

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1615307393264455682?s=20&t=P_3e392zQ_zpYiHPhKsPLg

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    I can understand that if you're not in the region the whole thing probably just feels very distant and nowhere near as visceral. So you can then express views based on overall vibes about the West and non-West. Europeans have generally had a similar reaction to most unrest and civil wars in Latin America. The default assumption is that both sides must be to blame

    The invasion of Iraq must have been massively damaging in this regard. Many people in the countries you list will simply view what Russia is doing in Ukraine as equivalent to what the US did in Iraq: powerful countries bullying smaller ones as they please. The West abandoned its moral high ground in Iraq, and we'll be paying the price for it for a long time.

    Edit: The running sore of Israel/Palestine probably doesn't help much either.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 1,478
    Fishing said:

    148grss said:

    HYUFD said:

    More relevant to have Starmer in the Union barons' pocket like the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s now too than Sturgeon's again given polls suggest a Labour majority

    The Labour ads write themselves - "Tories caused this mess, and want you to pay for it"

    Why should workers and average people have to stomach a lower quality of living due to government failures? This is why the Tories are done - the public saw the Tories back Truss, saw her budget almost crash the markets, and now we are just expected to be poorer because of it. I think most people don't like that and that's why they support the unions / strikes. Tories caused the mess in the NHS, and want you to pay for it. Tories caused mortgages to spike, and want you to pay for it. Tories broke the trains, and want you to pay for it. The same message, across all the calamities, will sell itself.
    They also caused the mess in health sectors across Europe and the world, and mortgages spiking in Europe, Canada, Australia, the US etc etc etc. Is there no limit to their power?

    I'm abroad now, and have been for a month, and I must say travelling certainly makes you realise how many other countries are going through times as difficult, or more so, than we are.
    Yes, things are bad in other countries, yes, some are worse off, although many are better off than us. Difficult times were ahead, and the Tories made it worse. The Tories ran the NHS for almost a decade before Covid hit - that it had been so run into the ground during that time meant it was weaker to something bad happening. Now the NHS is constantly at critical.

    People saw, with their own eyes, the effects of Truss' short tenure in office. You can only ask people to ignore the evidence of their eyes for so long.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 32,312

    TimS said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:
    UK voters are the second most supportive of Ukraine in the world.

    Most nations voters back Ukraine too but voters in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Vietnam prefer Russia

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1615307393264455682?s=20&t=P_3e392zQ_zpYiHPhKsPLg

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    I can understand that if you're not in the region the whole thing probably just feels very distant and nowhere near as visceral. So you can then express views based on overall vibes about the West and non-West. Europeans have generally had a similar reaction to most unrest and civil wars in Latin America. The default assumption is that both sides must be to blame

    The invasion of Iraq must have been massively damaging in this regard. Many people in the countries you list will simply view what Russia is doing in Ukraine as equivalent to what the US did in Iraq: powerful countries bullying smaller ones as they please. The West abandoned its moral high ground in Iraq, and we'll be paying the price for it for a long time.
    I think the general view in the countries mentioned is that the strong do as they well, they weak do as they must.

    However, Russia is no longer one of the strong.
  • Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:
    UK voters are the second most supportive of Ukraine in the world.

    Most nations voters back Ukraine too but voters in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Vietnam prefer Russia

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1615307393264455682?s=20&t=P_3e392zQ_zpYiHPhKsPLg

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    I can understand that if you're not in the region the whole thing probably just feels very distant and nowhere near as visceral. So you can then express views based on overall vibes about the West and non-West. Europeans have generally had a similar reaction to most unrest and civil wars in Latin America. The default assumption is that both sides must be to blame

    The invasion of Iraq must have been massively damaging in this regard. Many people in the countries you list will simply view what Russia is doing in Ukraine as equivalent to what the US did in Iraq: powerful countries bullying smaller ones as they please. The West abandoned its moral high ground in Iraq, and we'll be paying the price for it for a long time.
    I think the general view in the countries mentioned is that the strong do as they well, they weak do as they must.

    However, Russia is no longer one of the strong.
    I dunno. To a naive outside observer it might look as though Russia is holding its own against the combined might of the West.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,052

    Maybe this as an effort at replicating the ad on the side of the bus.
    Or maybe they're just morons. Who knows?

    I'm on the Tory fund-raising mailing list (as I've run NGO stands at the Tory conference). Today's effort goes all in on this stuff, to the point that it's self-defeatingly daft. It's been quite a while since they tried to raise funds to support anything the Government was actually doing.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 43,012

    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:
    UK voters are the second most supportive of Ukraine in the world.

    Most nations voters back Ukraine too but voters in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Vietnam prefer Russia

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1615307393264455682?s=20&t=P_3e392zQ_zpYiHPhKsPLg

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    I can understand that if you're not in the region the whole thing probably just feels very distant and nowhere near as visceral. So you can then express views based on overall vibes about the West and non-West. Europeans have generally had a similar reaction to most unrest and civil wars in Latin America. The default assumption is that both sides must be to blame

    The invasion of Iraq must have been massively damaging in this regard. Many people in the countries you list will simply view what Russia is doing in Ukraine as equivalent to what the US did in Iraq: powerful countries bullying smaller ones as they please. The West abandoned its moral high ground in Iraq, and we'll be paying the price for it for a long time.
    I think the general view in the countries mentioned is that the strong do as they well, they weak do as they must.

    However, Russia is no longer one of the strong.
    I dunno. To a naive outside observer it might look as though Russia is holding its own against the combined might of the West.
    Yeah, I remember the dastardly Ukrainian invasions of the Blessed Motherland in 2014 and 2022!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,264
    @REWearmouth: RT @NewStatesman: As the Conservatives struggle to recover in the polls, thoughts are beginning to turn to what may be left of the pa… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1615351484371156995
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,355
    edited January 17
    Good aftrrnoon

    Interesting from the Guardian on Davos and how Sunak is not going but Starmer is but will not impose wealth taxes

    Tax on income is far too high, and tax on wealth must be on the agenda but it seems not on Starmers

    There will never be a better opportunity to tax wealth but not by labour apparently

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/16/the-guardian-view-on-wealth-taxes-uk-needs-one-on-millionaires-and-billionaires?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    TimS said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:
    UK voters are the second most supportive of Ukraine in the world.

    Most nations voters back Ukraine too but voters in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Vietnam prefer Russia

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1615307393264455682?s=20&t=P_3e392zQ_zpYiHPhKsPLg

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    I can understand that if you're not in the region the whole thing probably just feels very distant and nowhere near as visceral. So you can then express views based on overall vibes about the West and non-West. Europeans have generally had a similar reaction to most unrest and civil wars in Latin America. The default assumption is that both sides must be to blame

    "Voters in China"?

    Presumably Morning Consult is able to directly poll the members of the Polit bureau.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    TimS said:

    On topic I very much doubt the Tories care whether they're correct or not. Truth hasn't generally been much of a priority.

    The objective is to plant mental images in gullible voters' heads. Remember the Starmer letting off Saville thing?

    Spot on: the Conservative Party's job here is to tie Labour to the strikes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,264
    @SkyNews: Nadhim Zahawi: Questions remain over former chancellor's 'seven-figure settlement' with HMRC
    http://news.sky.com/story/nadhim-zahawi-questions-remain-over-former-chancellors-seven-figure-settlement-with-hmrc-12788572

    Like "Why are the police not involved?"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    A bit more on the new defence minister.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/germany-new-defence-minister-boris-pistorius-ukraine
    ...Importantly for Scholz, Pistorius has spoken out in favour of helping Ukraine defend itself, and expressed his scepticism earlier on in the conflict about the efficacy of sanctions against Russia.

    Pistorius follows on from three female defence ministers who served Germany over the past decade. Previous to that the post had only ever been held by a man...

    ...It had long been speculated that Pistorius had wider political ambitions. He had campaigned to become the leader of the Social Democrats and is believed to have been under discussion as a potential interior minister in the central government when Scholz was forming his new administration in late 2022.

    Colleagues described him on Tuesday as having a reputation among Germany’s other state interior ministers as a knowledgable expert on domestic security. His biography indicates time spent doing his military service in the early 1980s, but otherwise he is not believed to have any military experience or expertise...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,020
    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:
    UK voters are the second most supportive of Ukraine in the world.

    Most nations voters back Ukraine too but voters in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Vietnam prefer Russia

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1615307393264455682?s=20&t=P_3e392zQ_zpYiHPhKsPLg

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    I can understand that if you're not in the region the whole thing probably just feels very distant and nowhere near as visceral. So you can then express views based on overall vibes about the West and non-West. Europeans have generally had a similar reaction to most unrest and civil wars in Latin America. The default assumption is that both sides must be to blame

    The invasion of Iraq must have been massively damaging in this regard. Many people in the countries you list will simply view what Russia is doing in Ukraine as equivalent to what the US did in Iraq: powerful countries bullying smaller ones as they please. The West abandoned its moral high ground in Iraq, and we'll be paying the price for it for a long time.
    I think the general view in the countries mentioned is that the strong do as they well, they weak do as they must.

    However, Russia is no longer one of the strong.
    Russia is an eight-year old ASBO brat who shouts & screams and then goes up with drumbeats against Tyson Fury and then threatens to call in his Uncle and his Dad when he doesn't get anywhere.
  • Guardian's live politics blog says this about the Scotland debate:

    "Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader (he is an MSP as well as an MP), accuses Nicola Sturgeon of trying to turn this into a “political battle” when all the UK government is trying to do is protect the rights of women and girls."

    This is the exact problem that Dross has so eloquently carved out. As an MSP he led the opposition to the bill, and thanks to cross party support he lost. Now as an MP he says it is right for Westminster to veto the bill to "protect the rights of women and girls". Whether you agree with him or the bill or whatever is not the issue.

    There was a debate. Dross was outvoted by the other parties. Dross now thinks it isn't offside to simply have his other job overrule his failure in Holyrood.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594
    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149
  • HYUFD said:

    ASLEF are though and they have just rejected an 8% payrise to go on strike again

    https://aslef.org.uk/publications/aslef-will-continue-affiliate-labour-party

    CWU postal strikers also still affiliated to Labour

    4%. As explained on the other thread. Yet you continue to repeat the lie. Bit like your party's dumb poster in the header you know its wrong but assume the audience are too thick to notice.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503
    Another day, another policeman sacked for sexual offences.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11644129/Police-constable-abandoned-duty-sex-woman-van-sacked.html

    Somewhat unusually, this one appears to have been consensual - in the back of the police van, parked in a public place.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews: Nadhim Zahawi: Questions remain over former chancellor's 'seven-figure settlement' with HMRC
    http://news.sky.com/story/nadhim-zahawi-questions-remain-over-former-chancellors-seven-figure-settlement-with-hmrc-12788572

    Like "Why are the police not involved?"

    Was Mr Zahawi inspired by Father Ted...?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,818

    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:
    UK voters are the second most supportive of Ukraine in the world.

    Most nations voters back Ukraine too but voters in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Vietnam prefer Russia

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1615307393264455682?s=20&t=P_3e392zQ_zpYiHPhKsPLg

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    I can understand that if you're not in the region the whole thing probably just feels very distant and nowhere near as visceral. So you can then express views based on overall vibes about the West and non-West. Europeans have generally had a similar reaction to most unrest and civil wars in Latin America. The default assumption is that both sides must be to blame

    The invasion of Iraq must have been massively damaging in this regard. Many people in the countries you list will simply view what Russia is doing in Ukraine as equivalent to what the US did in Iraq: powerful countries bullying smaller ones as they please. The West abandoned its moral high ground in Iraq, and we'll be paying the price for it for a long time.
    I think the general view in the countries mentioned is that the strong do as they well, they weak do as they must.

    However, Russia is no longer one of the strong.
    I dunno. To a naive outside observer it might look as though Russia is holding its own against the combined might of the West.
    Yeah, I remember the dastardly Ukrainian invasions of the Blessed Motherland in 2014 and 2022!
    To link the stories, here's what the RMT' were saying about Ukraine in 2015 (at the time the RMT's deputy leader, Eddie Dempsey, visited the separatists in the Donbass)

    "Conference threw its weight behind Solidarity with Antifascist Resistance in Ukraine (SARU). Assistant general secretary Steve Hedley said that opponents of the proposal would be “dancing on the graves” of 30,000 merchant seaman who died under Nazi bombs in the Second World War, and hero railway workers who fought fascism in Spain in the Spanish Civil War.

    The motion to support Ukraine’s anti-fascist resistance was proposed by Eddie Dempsey who spoke out against the Western-backed government of western Ukraine, which included open Nazis. He reported on a visit he recently made to Ukraine, saying that anti-fascists he met there had since been murdered."

    To be clear, the 'anti-fascist' he met was Aleksey Mozgovoy:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Mozgovoy

    https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/publications/rmt-news-july--august-2015/105994-rmt-news-july-2015-new-lo.pdf
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503

    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:
    UK voters are the second most supportive of Ukraine in the world.

    Most nations voters back Ukraine too but voters in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Vietnam prefer Russia

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1615307393264455682?s=20&t=P_3e392zQ_zpYiHPhKsPLg

    Pakistan is the surprise there considering the Putin love-in by their arch nemesis Modi.

    I can understand that if you're not in the region the whole thing probably just feels very distant and nowhere near as visceral. So you can then express views based on overall vibes about the West and non-West. Europeans have generally had a similar reaction to most unrest and civil wars in Latin America. The default assumption is that both sides must be to blame

    The invasion of Iraq must have been massively damaging in this regard. Many people in the countries you list will simply view what Russia is doing in Ukraine as equivalent to what the US did in Iraq: powerful countries bullying smaller ones as they please. The West abandoned its moral high ground in Iraq, and we'll be paying the price for it for a long time.
    I think the general view in the countries mentioned is that the strong do as they well, they weak do as they must.

    However, Russia is no longer one of the strong.
    Russia is an eight-year old ASBO brat who shouts & screams and then goes up with drumbeats against Tyson Fury and then threatens to call in his Uncle and his Dad when he doesn't get anywhere.
    And at some point Mr Fury will get fed up of the baiting, and knock him out cold.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 3,023
    Nigelb said:

    A bit more on the new defence minister.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/germany-new-defence-minister-boris-pistorius-ukraine
    ...Importantly for Scholz, Pistorius has spoken out in favour of helping Ukraine defend itself, and expressed his scepticism earlier on in the conflict about the efficacy of sanctions against Russia.

    Pistorius follows on from three female defence ministers who served Germany over the past decade. Previous to that the post had only ever been held by a man...

    ...It had long been speculated that Pistorius had wider political ambitions. He had campaigned to become the leader of the Social Democrats and is believed to have been under discussion as a potential interior minister in the central government when Scholz was forming his new administration in late 2022.

    Colleagues described him on Tuesday as having a reputation among Germany’s other state interior ministers as a knowledgable expert on domestic security. His biography indicates time spent doing his military service in the early 1980s, but otherwise he is not believed to have any military experience or expertise...

    late 2022?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,769
    Being shouted down in the Chamber by @UKLabour men who clearly don't want women to speak up for our rights to single sex spaces. How very progressive #Section35

    https://twitter.com/RosieDuffield1/status/1615351935946612736
  • Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,941
    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,423
    "Lockdown destroyed our social bonds. It’s no wonder my patients are lonely
    Was the Government simply oblivious to the carnage that their policies could cause?
    Katie Musgrave" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/17/lockdown-destroyed-social-bonds-no-wonder-patients-lonely/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 32,312

    Guardian's live politics blog says this about the Scotland debate:

    "Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader (he is an MSP as well as an MP), accuses Nicola Sturgeon of trying to turn this into a “political battle” when all the UK government is trying to do is protect the rights of women and girls."

    This is the exact problem that Dross has so eloquently carved out. As an MSP he led the opposition to the bill, and thanks to cross party support he lost. Now as an MP he says it is right for Westminster to veto the bill to "protect the rights of women and girls". Whether you agree with him or the bill or whatever is not the issue.

    There was a debate. Dross was outvoted by the other parties. Dross now thinks it isn't offside to simply have his other job overrule his failure in Holyrood.

    Either the Scottish legislation has no adverse effect on the law in the rest of the UK, in which case the Scottish government will prevail, when this goes to Court.

    Or it does have such an adverse impact, in which case the government was entirely correct to block it.

    We'll find out in due course.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825
    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Watt would suggest that to you?
  • Sean_F said:

    Guardian's live politics blog says this about the Scotland debate:

    "Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader (he is an MSP as well as an MP), accuses Nicola Sturgeon of trying to turn this into a “political battle” when all the UK government is trying to do is protect the rights of women and girls."

    This is the exact problem that Dross has so eloquently carved out. As an MSP he led the opposition to the bill, and thanks to cross party support he lost. Now as an MP he says it is right for Westminster to veto the bill to "protect the rights of women and girls". Whether you agree with him or the bill or whatever is not the issue.

    There was a debate. Dross was outvoted by the other parties. Dross now thinks it isn't offside to simply have his other job overrule his failure in Holyrood.

    Either the Scottish legislation has no adverse effect on the law in the rest of the UK, in which case the Scottish government will prevail, when this goes to Court.

    Or it does have such an adverse impact, in which case the government was entirely correct to block it.

    We'll find out in due course.
    Sure - if Dross was making that argument then at least he would be defending the UK's primacy.

    But he isn't. He and other backbenchers are saying they disagree with the legislation saying it needs to be stopped. For wazzocks like Gullis we can simply ignore what he says as he has as much intelligence as my shoe. But Douglas Ross is very different.

    As an MSP and Scottish Tory leader in Holyrood he had the chance to make his case. He lost, and was comfortably outvoted by MSPs on a cross-party consensus. Yet here he is saying that actually he is correct actually and the majority of MSPs are wrong and that is why the bill must be blocked.

    That is profoundly undemocratic. Even for a Tory.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,818
    It appears that Solidarity with Antifascist Resistance in Ukraine have been rather quiet since February last year, with only two posts since.

    https://www.facebook.com/SolidaritywithAntifascistResistanceinUkraine/

    It's almost as if they'd done their job...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,020
    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,020
    Sean_F said:

    Guardian's live politics blog says this about the Scotland debate:

    "Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader (he is an MSP as well as an MP), accuses Nicola Sturgeon of trying to turn this into a “political battle” when all the UK government is trying to do is protect the rights of women and girls."

    This is the exact problem that Dross has so eloquently carved out. As an MSP he led the opposition to the bill, and thanks to cross party support he lost. Now as an MP he says it is right for Westminster to veto the bill to "protect the rights of women and girls". Whether you agree with him or the bill or whatever is not the issue.

    There was a debate. Dross was outvoted by the other parties. Dross now thinks it isn't offside to simply have his other job overrule his failure in Holyrood.

    Either the Scottish legislation has no adverse effect on the law in the rest of the UK, in which case the Scottish government will prevail, when this goes to Court.

    Or it does have such an adverse impact, in which case the government was entirely correct to block it.

    We'll find out in due course.
    I think referring it to court first may have been smarter politics.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503
    Andy_JS said:

    "Lockdown destroyed our social bonds. It’s no wonder my patients are lonely
    Was the Government simply oblivious to the carnage that their policies could cause?
    Katie Musgrave" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/17/lockdown-destroyed-social-bonds-no-wonder-patients-lonely/

    Rather like the group of commentators driven mad by Brexit, there’s another group of commentators who were driven mad by the pandemic, and seem to want to keep re-living it for years after the rest of us have put it behind us.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Agreed.
    Given the negative effects of Brexit for inward investment, it ought to have been a no brainer to use the new freedom from subsidy rules to make sure we still have a motor industry.

    Utter failure.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lockdown destroyed our social bonds. It’s no wonder my patients are lonely
    Was the Government simply oblivious to the carnage that their policies could cause?
    Katie Musgrave" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/17/lockdown-destroyed-social-bonds-no-wonder-patients-lonely/

    Rather like the group of commentators driven mad by Brexit, there’s another group of commentators who were driven mad by the pandemic, and seem to want to keep re-living it for years after the rest of us have put it behind us.
    Indeed: we've had almost has as much time now in the post-Covid world as we did in the living-with-Covid world. There is no smidgen of a possibility that widespread restrictions are going to be introduced.

    So, why are people still obsessed with it?
  • Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    A bit more on the new defence minister.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/germany-new-defence-minister-boris-pistorius-ukraine
    ...Importantly for Scholz, Pistorius has spoken out in favour of helping Ukraine defend itself, and expressed his scepticism earlier on in the conflict about the efficacy of sanctions against Russia.

    Pistorius follows on from three female defence ministers who served Germany over the past decade. Previous to that the post had only ever been held by a man...

    ...It had long been speculated that Pistorius had wider political ambitions. He had campaigned to become the leader of the Social Democrats and is believed to have been under discussion as a potential interior minister in the central government when Scholz was forming his new administration in late 2022.

    Colleagues described him on Tuesday as having a reputation among Germany’s other state interior ministers as a knowledgable expert on domestic security. His biography indicates time spent doing his military service in the early 1980s, but otherwise he is not believed to have any military experience or expertise...

    late 2022?
    Take it up with the Guardian.
    Well known for their obsession with getting the detail right.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    It's not as though Europe is a tech leader in the new industry - most of the new battery factories are Korean or Chinese partnerships - but the do display some sort of determination to retain a manufacturing base.

    Our government seems to have abandoned that completely.
    Over reliance on services at a time of rapid technological change is a risky national strategy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,651

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Welcome to where I've been for the last 5 years. The whole Treasury needs junking and replacing.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594

    Good aftrrnoon

    Interesting from the Guardian on Davos and how Sunak is not going but Starmer is but will not impose wealth taxes

    Tax on income is far too high, and tax on wealth must be on the agenda but it seems not on Starmers

    There will never be a better opportunity to tax wealth but not by labour apparently

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/16/the-guardian-view-on-wealth-taxes-uk-needs-one-on-millionaires-and-billionaires?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Starmer has form for saying one thing to get elected and another once elected.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,494
    MaxPB said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Welcome to where I've been for the last 5 years. The whole Treasury needs junking and replacing.
    It has been like that for centuries. Do not expect sudden change
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594
    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    I’m going to claim it was, irrespective of whether it actually was or not !
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,769
    Everyone knows that I oppose the #GRRBill because it lacks adequate safeguards to protect the rights of women, girls & #LGB people. However, the problem is made in Scotland & should be fixed in Scotland.

    https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1615355356988977154
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,941
    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Watt would suggest that to you?
    I just felt the potential was there.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    Korea's push to export nuclear reactors gains new momentum

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/01/120_343737.html
    Korea's campaign to export nuclear reactors and related facilities is gaining fresh momentum on the occasion of President Yoon Suk Yeol's state visit to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), as the two countries agreed to cooperate for additional nuclear projects in either the UAE or third countries, such as the U.K.

    Yoon will wrap up his state visit to the UAE on Tuesday afternoon (local time), after fruitful summit diplomacy, including securing the UAE's commitment to invest $30 billion in Korean companies guaranteed through a joint declaration and a total of 48 memoranda of understanding (MOUs) signed between the two countries.

    Nuclear energy is one of the areas that is expected to facilitate bilateral cooperation.

    While promising an astonishing amount of investment, UAE President Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan said his country decided to do so in recognition of the successful construction and operation of the Barakah Nuclear Power Plant, which was built by Korean companies.

    During the leaders' visit to the nuclear plant on Monday, Yoon noted, "Now is the time for both Korea and the UAE to join hands to create additional nuclear power partnerships in the UAE and other countries."...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,264
    @SkyNews: BREAKING: RMT announces train drivers at 14 rail operators will strike on 1 and 3 February in a long-running disput… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1615370026369810436
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,769
    ‘The Scottish parliament is not permitted to act unlawfully’ is not a statement which should provoke a ‘constitutional crisis’

    https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1615330895266983937

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503
    Nigelb said:

    Korea's push to export nuclear reactors gains new momentum

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/01/120_343737.html
    Korea's campaign to export nuclear reactors and related facilities is gaining fresh momentum on the occasion of President Yoon Suk Yeol's state visit to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), as the two countries agreed to cooperate for additional nuclear projects in either the UAE or third countries, such as the U.K.

    Yoon will wrap up his state visit to the UAE on Tuesday afternoon (local time), after fruitful summit diplomacy, including securing the UAE's commitment to invest $30 billion in Korean companies guaranteed through a joint declaration and a total of 48 memoranda of understanding (MOUs) signed between the two countries.

    Nuclear energy is one of the areas that is expected to facilitate bilateral cooperation.

    While promising an astonishing amount of investment, UAE President Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan said his country decided to do so in recognition of the successful construction and operation of the Barakah Nuclear Power Plant, which was built by Korean companies.

    During the leaders' visit to the nuclear plant on Monday, Yoon noted, "Now is the time for both Korea and the UAE to join hands to create additional nuclear power partnerships in the UAE and other countries."...

    Yep, the Koreans did a bloody good job on the four-reactor Barakah nuclear plant, the first of its type operational.

    Dare I say it, but the Koreans are going to be more reliable partners than the Chinese. Or the French.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    Fishing said:

    148grss said:

    HYUFD said:

    More relevant to have Starmer in the Union barons' pocket like the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s now too than Sturgeon's again given polls suggest a Labour majority

    The Labour ads write themselves - "Tories caused this mess, and want you to pay for it"

    Why should workers and average people have to stomach a lower quality of living due to government failures? This is why the Tories are done - the public saw the Tories back Truss, saw her budget almost crash the markets, and now we are just expected to be poorer because of it. I think most people don't like that and that's why they support the unions / strikes. Tories caused the mess in the NHS, and want you to pay for it. Tories caused mortgages to spike, and want you to pay for it. Tories broke the trains, and want you to pay for it. The same message, across all the calamities, will sell itself.
    They also caused the mess in health sectors across Europe and the world, and mortgages spiking in Europe, Canada, Australia, the US etc etc etc. Is there no limit to their power?

    I'm abroad now, and have been for a month, and I must say travelling certainly makes you realise how many other countries are going through times as difficult, or more so, than we are.

    I don't think Truss's bduget, most of which was never implemented, had any lasting effect at all. The problems are caused by spiralling global commodities prices, together with poor demand management in the US.
    Voters rarely reward good relative performance.

    Essentially every developed democratic government fell during the Global Financial crisis - doing relatively well was not rewarded at all.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,121
    edited January 17
    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Agreed.
    Given the negative effects of Brexit for inward investment, it ought to have been a no brainer to use the new freedom from subsidy rules to make sure we still have a motor industry.

    Utter failure.
    It's going to be disaster after disaster until the Brexiteers are able to acknowledge that the effects of Brexit are indeed negative and therefore need to be mitigated by the appropriate policy. Meanwhile it's going to be happy quips about remoaners and brexit-induced madness while the economy goes down the pan.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,423
    "Mike Gapes ⚒🇺🇦🇬🇧
    @MikeGapes

    Just watched the debate on the Scottish Gender Recognition Bill Statement in the Commons. Pleased to see excellent contributions supporting women’s rights by @ToniaAntoniazzi @RosieDuffield1 and @karinsmyth. I note that all three were shouted at by SNP male MPs.
    2:52 pm · 17 Jan 2023"

    https://twitter.com/MikeGapes/status/1615361514206019584
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,769
    The idea that Scot Gov didn't expect a challenge to gender self-ID bill from UK Gov on basis of impact on Equality Act operation in rUK is hard to believe.

    eg, in Sept 22, @EHRC set out "potential cross-border implications of reform" incl impact on Equality Act operation in rUK


    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1615342240020287488

  • rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    148grss said:

    HYUFD said:

    More relevant to have Starmer in the Union barons' pocket like the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s now too than Sturgeon's again given polls suggest a Labour majority

    The Labour ads write themselves - "Tories caused this mess, and want you to pay for it"

    Why should workers and average people have to stomach a lower quality of living due to government failures? This is why the Tories are done - the public saw the Tories back Truss, saw her budget almost crash the markets, and now we are just expected to be poorer because of it. I think most people don't like that and that's why they support the unions / strikes. Tories caused the mess in the NHS, and want you to pay for it. Tories caused mortgages to spike, and want you to pay for it. Tories broke the trains, and want you to pay for it. The same message, across all the calamities, will sell itself.
    They also caused the mess in health sectors across Europe and the world, and mortgages spiking in Europe, Canada, Australia, the US etc etc etc. Is there no limit to their power?

    I'm abroad now, and have been for a month, and I must say travelling certainly makes you realise how many other countries are going through times as difficult, or more so, than we are.

    I don't think Truss's bduget, most of which was never implemented, had any lasting effect at all. The problems are caused by spiralling global commodities prices, together with poor demand management in the US.
    Voters rarely reward good relative performance.

    Essentially every developed democratic government fell during the Global Financial crisis - doing relatively well was not rewarded at all.
    I thought the GFC was all Gordon Brown's fault?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    Anti-Woke? Or just (im)pure Wack?

    CNN - Failed GOP candidate arrested on suspicion of orchestrating shootings at homes of Democrats in New Mexico, police say

    A Republican former candidate for New Mexico’s legislature who police say claimed election fraud after his defeat has been arrested on suspicion of orchestrating recent shootings that damaged homes of Democratic elected leaders in the state, police said.

    Solomon Peña, who lost his 2022 run for state House District 14, was arrested Monday by Albuquerque police, accused of paying and conspiring with four men to shoot at the homes of two state legislators and two county commissioners, authorities said.

    “It is believed he is the mastermind” behind the shootings that happened in December and early January, Albuquerque Police Chief Harold Medina said in a news conference.

    CNN has reached out to Peña’s campaign website for comment and has been unable to identify his attorney. . . .

    Before the shootings, Peña in November – after losing the election – had approached one of the legislators and some county commissioners at their homes with paperwork that he said indicated fraud was involved in the elections, police said.

    Peña will face charges related to four shootings: a December 4 incident at the home of Bernalillo County Commissioner Adriann Barboa; a December 8 shooting at the home of incoming state House Speaker Javier Martinez; a December 11 shooting at the home of then-Bernalillo Commissioner Debbie O’Malley; and a January 3 shooting at the home of state Sen. Linda Lopez, police said in a news release.

    In the latest shooting, police found evidence “Peña himself went on this shooting and actually pulled the trigger on at least one of the firearms that was used,” Albuquerque police Deputy Cmdr. Kyle Hartsock said. But an AR handgun he tried to use malfunctioned, and more than a dozen rounds were fired by another shooter from a separate handgun, the police statement said. . . .

    During the fall campaign, Peña’s opponent, Democratic state Rep. Miguel Garcia, sued to have Peña removed from the ballot, arguing Peña’s status as an ex-felon should prevent him from being able to run for public office in the state, CNN affiliate KOAT reported. Peña served nearly seven years in prison after a 2008 conviction for stealing a large volume of goods in a “smash and grab scheme,” the KOAT report said.

    “You can’t hide from your own history,” Peña told the outlet in September. “I had nothing more than a desire to improve my lot in life.”

    A district court judge ruled Peña was allowed to run in the election, according to KOAT. He lost his race to Garcia, 26% to 74%. . . .

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/17/us/solomon-pena-arrested-new-mexico-shootings/index.html
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    MaxPB said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Welcome to where I've been for the last 5 years. The whole Treasury needs junking and replacing.
    You and I and other posters have been talking about this for a long time.

    Someone really needs to write a proper book on this topic.

    There are various silly debates on who the real “elite” is in the UK. Is it the “right” (generally speaking, the bankers, big business, Tory donors, and the cultural remnants of the aristocracy and the Church of England)?

    Or is it the “left” (the bien pensant Islingtonians, senior civil servants and charity executives, academics, and liberal journalists)?

    Well, the actual answer in the UK is the Treasury.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,151
    Selebian said:

    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Watt would suggest that to you?
    I just felt the potential was there.
    But you found a negative, instead of a live result.

    You should have remained neutral.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,716
    Not sure what to make of Stephen Flynn. Speaks well - but hmm
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 11,036

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    The underperformance of the UK auto sector relative to its peers is quite striking. In the last seven years UK auto sector production has declined by 39%. Over the same period production in the Euro Area has fallen by 11%, in Japan by 13% and in the US it's up 6%. It's a tough industry to compete in and the EV transition poses new challenges but I think Brexit was the nail in the coffin, as many predicted. Maybe it doesn't matter, plenty of countries get by without a car industry, but it's bad news for the manufacturing supply chain and leaves the economy even more skewed towards services.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    It's not as though Europe is a tech leader in the new industry - most of the new battery factories are Korean or Chinese partnerships - but the do display some sort of determination to retain a manufacturing base.

    Our government seems to have abandoned that completely.
    Over reliance on services at a time of rapid technological change is a risky national strategy.
    France, ironically, actually had a high tech battery maker (SAFT) about a decade ago. It sold itself to oil company Total, and was never seen again.
  • Selebian said:

    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Watt would suggest that to you?
    I just felt the potential was there.
    But you found a negative, instead of a live result.

    You should have remained neutral.
    Have the workers all gone ohm now?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    One factor weighing in UK performance is that the US has done better than most were predicting a year ago.

    So is Germany etc.

    The global environment has been shockingly bad but just not as shockingly bad as most were expecting.

    Plus, wealthier Brits are yet to exhaust their Covid savings.

    British stocks look quite undervalued and this is encouraging investors to “look again”.

    Important not to get complacent though.
    Complacency has rather fucked the UK more broadly. Fundamental reform is necessary, even if no party is currently offering that.
  • Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Agreed.
    Given the negative effects of Brexit for inward investment, it ought to have been a no brainer to use the new freedom from subsidy rules to make sure we still have a motor industry.

    Utter failure.
    It's going to be disaster after disaster until the Brexiteers are able to acknowledge that the effects of Brexit are indeed negative and therefore need to be mitigated by the appropriate policy. Meanwhile it's going to be happy quips about remoaners and brexit-induced madness while the economy goes down the pan.
    Not just that, though.

    It's of a piece with the way that some Brexit backers were looking to make Britain more global and outward looking and others looked to close the door.

    Some would like to use our freedom from Euroregs to subsidise industry in our favour, whilst others would go for no subsidies at all. After all, hedge funders don't get subsidies, do they?

    It's why the blank screen thing was excellent referendumsmanship, but lousy governance.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,911
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    It's not as though Europe is a tech leader in the new industry - most of the new battery factories are Korean or Chinese partnerships - but the do display some sort of determination to retain a manufacturing base.

    Our government seems to have abandoned that completely.
    Over reliance on services at a time of rapid technological change is a risky national strategy.
    France, ironically, actually had a high tech battery maker (SAFT) about a decade ago. It sold itself to oil company Total, and was never seen again.
    Juicy story wenn ich das sagen darf.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    The underperformance of the UK auto sector relative to its peers is quite striking. In the last seven years UK auto sector production has declined by 39%. Over the same period production in the Euro Area has fallen by 11%, in Japan by 13% and in the US it's up 6%. It's a tough industry to compete in and the EV transition poses new challenges but I think Brexit was the nail in the coffin, as many predicted. Maybe it doesn't matter, plenty of countries get by without a car industry, but it's bad news for the manufacturing supply chain and leaves the economy even more skewed towards services.
    Minford of course suggested that the destruction of the UK auto industry was one of the positives to be expected from Brexit.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 11,036

    MaxPB said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Welcome to where I've been for the last 5 years. The whole Treasury needs junking and replacing.
    You and I and other posters have been talking about this for a long time.

    Someone really needs to write a proper book on this topic.

    There are various silly debates on who the real “elite” is in the UK. Is it the “right” (generally speaking, the bankers, big business, Tory donors, and the cultural remnants of the aristocracy and the Church of England)?

    Or is it the “left” (the bien pensant Islingtonians, senior civil servants and charity executives, academics, and liberal journalists)?

    Well, the actual answer in the UK is the Treasury.
    No the Treasury is just a bunch of junior civil servants with an institutional aversion to doing anything. Its direction is set by the Chancellor and the PM and the Treasury can be bent to their will given sufficient effort.
    The "elite" in this country is quite diffuse and contains elements of all the groups you mention.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,976
    Sean_F said:

    Guardian's live politics blog says this about the Scotland debate:

    "Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader (he is an MSP as well as an MP), accuses Nicola Sturgeon of trying to turn this into a “political battle” when all the UK government is trying to do is protect the rights of women and girls."

    This is the exact problem that Dross has so eloquently carved out. As an MSP he led the opposition to the bill, and thanks to cross party support he lost. Now as an MP he says it is right for Westminster to veto the bill to "protect the rights of women and girls". Whether you agree with him or the bill or whatever is not the issue.

    There was a debate. Dross was outvoted by the other parties. Dross now thinks it isn't offside to simply have his other job overrule his failure in Holyrood.

    Either the Scottish legislation has no adverse effect on the law in the rest of the UK, in which case the Scottish government will prevail, when this goes to Court.

    Or it does have such an adverse impact, in which case the government was entirely correct to block it.

    We'll find out in due course.
    Not quite - the materiality of any impact is relevant.

    My (not massively confident) prediction is the UKG will lose.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,264

    I think Brexit was the nail in the coffin, as many predicted.

    And were loudly ridiculed for it by the "experts" on here.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 11,036

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    The underperformance of the UK auto sector relative to its peers is quite striking. In the last seven years UK auto sector production has declined by 39%. Over the same period production in the Euro Area has fallen by 11%, in Japan by 13% and in the US it's up 6%. It's a tough industry to compete in and the EV transition poses new challenges but I think Brexit was the nail in the coffin, as many predicted. Maybe it doesn't matter, plenty of countries get by without a car industry, but it's bad news for the manufacturing supply chain and leaves the economy even more skewed towards services.
    Minford of course suggested that the destruction of the UK auto industry was one of the positives to be expected from Brexit.
    Minford gives economists a bad name.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,911
     

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    The underperformance of the UK auto sector relative to its peers is quite striking. In the last seven years UK auto sector production has declined by 39%. Over the same period production in the Euro Area has fallen by 11%, in Japan by 13% and in the US it's up 6%. It's a tough industry to compete in and the EV transition poses new challenges but I think Brexit was the nail in the coffin, as many predicted. Maybe it doesn't matter, plenty of countries get by without a car industry, but it's bad news for the manufacturing supply chain and leaves the economy even more skewed towards services.
    Minford of course suggested that the destruction of the UK auto industry was one of the positives to be expected from Brexit.
    Minford gives economists a bad name.
    Not in my view.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643

    MaxPB said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Welcome to where I've been for the last 5 years. The whole Treasury needs junking and replacing.
    You and I and other posters have been talking about this for a long time.

    Someone really needs to write a proper book on this topic.

    There are various silly debates on who the real “elite” is in the UK. Is it the “right” (generally speaking, the bankers, big business, Tory donors, and the cultural remnants of the aristocracy and the Church of England)?

    Or is it the “left” (the bien pensant Islingtonians, senior civil servants and charity executives, academics, and liberal journalists)?

    Well, the actual answer in the UK is the Treasury.
    No the Treasury is just a bunch of junior civil servants with an institutional aversion to doing anything. Its direction is set by the Chancellor and the PM and the Treasury can be bent to their will given sufficient effort.
    The "elite" in this country is quite diffuse and contains elements of all the groups you mention.
    They can be bent, but I strongly suspect that most MPs are scared of them and don’t have the intellectual experience to challenge them.
    And, at the end of the day they control all the spending.

    Treasury appears to have a very rigid idea of what works and what doesn’t, and they are not completely wrong. It’s just that neither are they completely right, and they tend to defeat politicians who might want to challenge them.

    The Truss-Kwarteng fiasco will only have strengthened their intellectual death-grip.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,769
    edited January 17
    Which members of the Royal Family make a positive contribution to the country? Only the Prince and Princess of Wales have a majority of the British public saying they do. All except Harry, Meghan and Andrew have seen their numbers improve since 2020, however.

    https://twitter.com/JoeTwyman/status/1615346825963372544
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 43,012
    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    It's just a plug.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 11,036

    MaxPB said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Welcome to where I've been for the last 5 years. The whole Treasury needs junking and replacing.
    You and I and other posters have been talking about this for a long time.

    Someone really needs to write a proper book on this topic.

    There are various silly debates on who the real “elite” is in the UK. Is it the “right” (generally speaking, the bankers, big business, Tory donors, and the cultural remnants of the aristocracy and the Church of England)?

    Or is it the “left” (the bien pensant Islingtonians, senior civil servants and charity executives, academics, and liberal journalists)?

    Well, the actual answer in the UK is the Treasury.
    No the Treasury is just a bunch of junior civil servants with an institutional aversion to doing anything. Its direction is set by the Chancellor and the PM and the Treasury can be bent to their will given sufficient effort.
    The "elite" in this country is quite diffuse and contains elements of all the groups you mention.
    They can be bent, but I strongly suspect that most MPs are scared of them and don’t have the intellectual experience to challenge them.
    And, at the end of the day they control all the spending.

    Treasury appears to have a very rigid idea of what works and what doesn’t, and they are not completely wrong. It’s just that neither are they completely right, and they tend to defeat politicians who might want to challenge them.

    The Truss-Kwarteng fiasco will only have strengthened their intellectual death-grip.

    I don't hold any candle for the Treasury - I turned down a job there to do something more interesting earlier in my career and certainly don't regret it. But I think it's not unreasonable that the people responsible for spending our money are averse to throwing it around like confetti. And the Trussterfuck episode simply illustrates that managing the economy successfully is harder than it looks, so perhaps Treasury orthodoxy has something going for it.
    Osborne's austerity was a mistake (as I thought at the time). That was facilitated by Treasury orthodoxy but ultimately the thinking came from the political leadership - as it should of course.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    Scott_xP said:

    I think Brexit was the nail in the coffin, as many predicted.

    And were loudly ridiculed for it by the "experts" on here.
    They weren’t actually experts, as noted I guess by your use of quotes. Brexit was pushed by a bunch of fantasists, chancers, and idiots.

    Underneath it all there is an occasional flash of logic, ie that stuff about a democracy’s ability to make its own decisions, but that was obscured by a lot of lies about economics and trade.

    And even the democracy stuff was essentially blown up by Boris’s behaviour. He, supported by Cummings, was a profoundly undemocratic character.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    .
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Korea's push to export nuclear reactors gains new momentum

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/01/120_343737.html
    Korea's campaign to export nuclear reactors and related facilities is gaining fresh momentum on the occasion of President Yoon Suk Yeol's state visit to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), as the two countries agreed to cooperate for additional nuclear projects in either the UAE or third countries, such as the U.K.

    Yoon will wrap up his state visit to the UAE on Tuesday afternoon (local time), after fruitful summit diplomacy, including securing the UAE's commitment to invest $30 billion in Korean companies guaranteed through a joint declaration and a total of 48 memoranda of understanding (MOUs) signed between the two countries.

    Nuclear energy is one of the areas that is expected to facilitate bilateral cooperation.

    While promising an astonishing amount of investment, UAE President Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan said his country decided to do so in recognition of the successful construction and operation of the Barakah Nuclear Power Plant, which was built by Korean companies.

    During the leaders' visit to the nuclear plant on Monday, Yoon noted, "Now is the time for both Korea and the UAE to join hands to create additional nuclear power partnerships in the UAE and other countries."...

    Yep, the Koreans did a bloody good job on the four-reactor Barakah nuclear plant, the first of its type operational.

    Dare I say it, but the Koreans are going to be more reliable partners than the Chinese. Or the French.
    They do seem to be usurping our traditional role as arms exporter and provider of nuclear engineering.
    I see their next generation combat aircraft made its first supersonic flight today. Probably a more realistic program than our hazy joint venture with the Japanese.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    It's not as though Europe is a tech leader in the new industry - most of the new battery factories are Korean or Chinese partnerships - but the do display some sort of determination to retain a manufacturing base.

    Our government seems to have abandoned that completely.
    Over reliance on services at a time of rapid technological change is a risky national strategy.
    France, ironically, actually had a high tech battery maker (SAFT) about a decade ago. It sold itself to oil company Total, and was never seen again.
    We had half a dozen rechargeable battery startups, and some interesting technology. None of it has got anywhere near large scale manufacturing.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    edited January 17

    MaxPB said:

    Selebian said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    I can't decide whether 'not a shock' is a deliberate electrical pun or not
    Utterly shortsighted by HMT. The Americans would never have let this fail.

    F-ing process jockeys with no vision, no courage and no risk appetite - with cowardly politicians on top.

    Shit.
    Welcome to where I've been for the last 5 years. The whole Treasury needs junking and replacing.
    You and I and other posters have been talking about this for a long time.

    Someone really needs to write a proper book on this topic.

    There are various silly debates on who the real “elite” is in the UK. Is it the “right” (generally speaking, the bankers, big business, Tory donors, and the cultural remnants of the aristocracy and the Church of England)?

    Or is it the “left” (the bien pensant Islingtonians, senior civil servants and charity executives, academics, and liberal journalists)?

    Well, the actual answer in the UK is the Treasury.
    No the Treasury is just a bunch of junior civil servants with an institutional aversion to doing anything. Its direction is set by the Chancellor and the PM and the Treasury can be bent to their will given sufficient effort.
    The "elite" in this country is quite diffuse and contains elements of all the groups you mention.
    They can be bent, but I strongly suspect that most MPs are scared of them and don’t have the intellectual experience to challenge them.
    And, at the end of the day they control all the spending.

    Treasury appears to have a very rigid idea of what works and what doesn’t, and they are not completely wrong. It’s just that neither are they completely right, and they tend to defeat politicians who might want to challenge them.

    The Truss-Kwarteng fiasco will only have strengthened their intellectual death-grip.

    I don't hold any candle for the Treasury - I turned down a job there to do something more interesting earlier in my career and certainly don't regret it. But I think it's not unreasonable that the people responsible for spending our money are averse to throwing it around like confetti. And the Trussterfuck episode simply illustrates that managing the economy successfully is harder than it looks, so perhaps Treasury orthodoxy has something going for it.
    Osborne's austerity was a mistake (as I thought at the time). That was facilitated by Treasury orthodoxy but ultimately the thinking came from the political leadership - as it should of course.
    I don’t think we really disagree, but even austerity was in part a response to shroud-waving in Treasury.

    It’s not like Osborne came up with it by himself.

    You are smarter than me, though. I tended to support austerity as I understood it at the time (but I work in digital technology and advertising, not economics).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,769
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Korea's push to export nuclear reactors gains new momentum

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/01/120_343737.html
    Korea's campaign to export nuclear reactors and related facilities is gaining fresh momentum on the occasion of President Yoon Suk Yeol's state visit to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), as the two countries agreed to cooperate for additional nuclear projects in either the UAE or third countries, such as the U.K.

    Yoon will wrap up his state visit to the UAE on Tuesday afternoon (local time), after fruitful summit diplomacy, including securing the UAE's commitment to invest $30 billion in Korean companies guaranteed through a joint declaration and a total of 48 memoranda of understanding (MOUs) signed between the two countries.

    Nuclear energy is one of the areas that is expected to facilitate bilateral cooperation.

    While promising an astonishing amount of investment, UAE President Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan said his country decided to do so in recognition of the successful construction and operation of the Barakah Nuclear Power Plant, which was built by Korean companies.

    During the leaders' visit to the nuclear plant on Monday, Yoon noted, "Now is the time for both Korea and the UAE to join hands to create additional nuclear power partnerships in the UAE and other countries."...

    Yep, the Koreans did a bloody good job on the four-reactor Barakah nuclear plant, the first of its type operational.

    Dare I say it, but the Koreans are going to be more reliable partners than the Chinese. Or the French.
    They do seem to be usurping our traditional role as arms exporter and provider of nuclear engineering.
    I see their next generation combat aircraft made its first supersonic flight today. Probably a more realistic program than our hazy joint venture with the Japanese.
    In South East Asia over the last 20 years there’s been an interesting shift in perception. 20 years ago the best stuff was from the USA, or at a pinch, Japan. Now it’s clearly Korea, from washing machines to pop to cosmetics to food.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    The underperformance of the UK auto sector relative to its peers is quite striking. In the last seven years UK auto sector production has declined by 39%. Over the same period production in the Euro Area has fallen by 11%, in Japan by 13% and in the US it's up 6%. It's a tough industry to compete in and the EV transition poses new challenges but I think Brexit was the nail in the coffin, as many predicted. Maybe it doesn't matter, plenty of countries get by without a car industry, but it's bad news for the manufacturing supply chain and leaves the economy even more skewed towards services.
    Minford of course suggested that the destruction of the UK auto industry was one of the positives to be expected from Brexit.
    Minford gives economists a bad name.
    Minford was current when Thatcher was still PM.
    Now just a curiosity.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Well this is not a shock.

    Britishvolt collapses into administration

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

    Lets all agree - this is Bad News. What it says about the state of the economy and our future as an industrial power should worry even the Tories.

    The article states "Industry experts say the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade.". And that is true - if car manufacturing is to continue on a viable scale in the UK.

    If. We've been seeing a contraction for a while so Brexit isn't the cause of this decline. But it is very clear that rather than arresting the decline and opening us to exciting new opportunities, it is instead accelerating our decline.

    Why bother to build here when you can do it for less cost with less faff anywhere else? Even the few remaining factories and companies show signs of gradually letting new vehicles migrate away to factories elsewhere.
    Brexit has certainly played a large part in the UK not even being considered as a destination for new EV and battery factories.

    The new European centres of production are already planned, being built, or completed. We have Nissan, and that's about it.
    And we only have Nissan because the factory was already there. Churning out ancient Leafs.
    The underperformance of the UK auto sector relative to its peers is quite striking. In the last seven years UK auto sector production has declined by 39%. Over the same period production in the Euro Area has fallen by 11%, in Japan by 13% and in the US it's up 6%. It's a tough industry to compete in and the EV transition poses new challenges but I think Brexit was the nail in the coffin, as many predicted. Maybe it doesn't matter, plenty of countries get by without a car industry, but it's bad news for the manufacturing supply chain and leaves the economy even more skewed towards services.
    Minford of course suggested that the destruction of the UK auto industry was one of the positives to be expected from Brexit.
    Minford gives economists a bad name.
    Minford was current when Thatcher was still PM.
    Now just a curiosity.
    Sadly not just a curiosity as he was in fact the “leading light” in Economists for Brexit, thus supplying Brexiters and the “he says/she says” journalist class with a veneer of economic respectability, and of course his thinking was directly behind the Trussterfuck.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082

    Which members of the Royal Family make a positive contribution to the country? Only the Prince and Princess of Wales have a majority of the British public saying they do. All except Harry, Meghan and Andrew have seen their numbers improve since 2020, however.

    https://twitter.com/JoeTwyman/status/1615346825963372544

    What is explanation for apparent rise in appreciation (if that's really the word?) for Prince Edward and Zara T?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    edited January 17
    In addition to the collapse of British Volt, I hear rumours that the much trumpeted passenger line through Blyth has needed £70 m more in funds and is already a year behind schedule.
    Looks like the new Labour MP will get to open the stations.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Korea's push to export nuclear reactors gains new momentum

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/01/120_343737.html
    Korea's campaign to export nuclear reactors and related facilities is gaining fresh momentum on the occasion of President Yoon Suk Yeol's state visit to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), as the two countries agreed to cooperate for additional nuclear projects in either the UAE or third countries, such as the U.K.

    Yoon will wrap up his state visit to the UAE on Tuesday afternoon (local time), after fruitful summit diplomacy, including securing the UAE's commitment to invest $30 billion in Korean companies guaranteed through a joint declaration and a total of 48 memoranda of understanding (MOUs) signed between the two countries.

    Nuclear energy is one of the areas that is expected to facilitate bilateral cooperation.

    While promising an astonishing amount of investment, UAE President Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan said his country decided to do so in recognition of the successful construction and operation of the Barakah Nuclear Power Plant, which was built by Korean companies.

    During the leaders' visit to the nuclear plant on Monday, Yoon noted, "Now is the time for both Korea and the UAE to join hands to create additional nuclear power partnerships in the UAE and other countries."...

    Yep, the Koreans did a bloody good job on the four-reactor Barakah nuclear plant, the first of its type operational.

    Dare I say it, but the Koreans are going to be more reliable partners than the Chinese. Or the French.
    They do seem to be usurping our traditional role as arms exporter and provider of nuclear engineering.
    I see their next generation combat aircraft made its first supersonic flight today. Probably a more realistic program than our hazy joint venture with the Japanese.
    In South East Asia over the last 20 years there’s been an interesting shift in perception. 20 years ago the best stuff was from the USA, or at a pinch, Japan. Now it’s clearly Korea, from washing machines to pop to cosmetics to food.
    I am reading “How Asia Works”, which I think was an FT Best Books winner last year.

    Quite fascinating, in that it suggests the key behind Korea’s success was breaking up land ownership to create small landholders in (I think) the 1950s.

    This created a large “middle class” of people who were incented to work for their own prosperity and allowed them to create surplus for entrepreneurial investment.

    I keep wondering if there are lessons for the UK, which has managed to gear itself into a machine for rentiers to make money.
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