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Finally at the 15th attempt a House Speaker is elected – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,163
edited January 2023 in General
Finally at the 15th attempt a House Speaker is elected – politicalbetting.com

Aye Aye Tenemos Papam SpeakerFinally a Speaker is elected after fifteen rounds of voting. The longest and most arduous since the US Civil War.It took 15 ballots, a midnight vote & a NEAR-FIST FIGHT but Kevin McCarthy has now been elected Speaker of d House of Representatives. pic.twitter.com/g8zpMh19SM

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Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    Note too it was only 6 Republicans abstaining and voting 'Present' that got McCarthy elected Speaker. Even in the final ballot not every Republican representative voted for him
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited January 2023
    Indeed Trump is now a centrist in the GOP.
    If he or DeSantis don't get the nomination it'll be because someone beats them from the right on purity.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    dixiedean said:

    Indeed Trump is now a centrist in the GOP.
    If he or DeSantis don't get the nomination it'll be because someone beats them from the right on purity.

    Trump? Purity? Best laugh, I’ve had for ages!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,392
    OldKingCole said:

    dixiedean said:

    Indeed Trump is now a centrist in the GOP.
    If he or DeSantis don't get the nomination it'll be because someone beats them from the right on purity.

    Trump? Purity? Best laugh, I’ve had for ages!
    Oh, is that her name?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    I don’t think Biden has much to fear from the House for the next two years. McCarthy can’t control his caucus and there must be a question mark about how long he’ll survive before they try and force him out.

    Biden is a lucky general. His chances for 2024 keep getting better.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    That's always been the case. Trump isn't especially right wing by Republican standards (that's why he got elected). He's just more shameless and dishonest.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    That's always been the case. Trump isn't especially right wing by Republican standards (that's why he got elected). He's just more shameless and dishonest.
    Trumps most incredible achievement was persuading the evangelical lobby (eg the lot who thought the angels from Africa and South America were going to swoop in and save the day in the 2020 election), that he was their great hope.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    numbertwelve said:

    I don’t think Biden has much to fear from the House for the next two years. McCarthy can’t control his caucus and there must be a question mark about how long he’ll survive before they try and force him out.

    Biden is a lucky general. His chances for 2024 keep getting better.

    On both sides of the Atlantic we have a left of centre leader who is routinely underestimated by his opponents (both within the party and on the opposite side), which I think suits both.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    That's always been the case. Trump isn't especially right wing by Republican standards (that's why he got elected). He's just more shameless and dishonest.
    Echoes of Johnson, who exploited then disappointed the right to get the top job. Partly by giving them one totemic thing (Brexit here, Supreme Court there).

    However, the Republican right seem to have a better idea of what they're doing, and the closeness of the house gives them a lot of sway;

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2023/1/6/23542817/kevin-mccarthy-speaker-deal-congress-debt-ceiling

    If this ends up with a government shutdown, Ron Swanson will be happy, but what about the voters?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361
    numbertwelve said:

    I don’t think Biden has much to fear from the House for the next two years. McCarthy can’t control his caucus and there must be a question mark about how long he’ll survive before they try and force him out.

    Biden is a lucky general. His chances for 2024 keep getting better.

    Getting a budget through this House is going to be tortuous.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    numbertwelve said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    That's always been the case. Trump isn't especially right wing by Republican standards (that's why he got elected). He's just more shameless and dishonest.
    Trumps most incredible achievement was persuading the evangelical lobby (eg the lot who thought the angels from Africa and South America were going to swoop in and save the day in the 2020 election), that he was their great hope.
    He delivered the judges on the SC they wanted. Which in turn means he has delivered on Roe vs Wade.

    As far as the loony religious right are concerned, he has delivered his promises to them.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    @Eabhal Fpt. I note you say you have never skied in Europe, but obviously ski in Scotland quite a bit. I think you will find Europe is for softies and have a whale of a time if you give it a go. Great slopes in France, but most decent resorts are concrete jungles and much skiing is above the tree line so not as pretty as elsewhere. Austria is great, but avoid the small resorts if you are a decent skier. One of my favourites is the Sella Ronda in Italy. Prettier than France, 800 odd km of runs I believe and all accessible as most are on a loop. I think the loop is 37 km from memory and many alternatives for doing it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,137
    edited January 2023
    Stuartinromford said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    That's always been the case. Trump isn't especially right wing by Republican standards (that's why he got elected). He's just more shameless and dishonest.
    Echoes of Johnson, who exploited then disappointed the right to get the top job. Partly by giving them one totemic thing (Brexit here, Supreme Court there).

    However, the Republican right seem to have a better idea of what they're doing, and the closeness of the house gives them a lot of sway;

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2023/1/6/23542817/kevin-mccarthy-speaker-deal-congress-debt-ceiling

    If this ends up with a government shutdown, Ron Swanson will be happy, but what about the voters?
    Yes, definite parallels. Both Johnson and Trump are 100% about themselves. The wrapping is different but what's inside is essentially the same. Pure and absolute narcissism.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,258
    numbertwelve said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    That's always been the case. Trump isn't especially right wing by Republican standards (that's why he got elected). He's just more shameless and dishonest.
    Trumps most incredible achievement was persuading the evangelical lobby (eg the lot who thought the angels from Africa and South America were going to swoop in and save the day in the 2020 election), that he was their great hope.
    I would point your attention to Roe vs Wade.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    edited January 2023
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    That's always been the case. Trump isn't especially right wing by Republican standards (that's why he got elected). He's just more shameless and dishonest.
    Compared to say McCain or Romney or even the Bushes he is.

    In fact he was probably the most Conservative and rightwing GOP Presidential nominee since Reagan or Goldwater, especially with evangelical Pence on the ticket too
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358
    dixiedean said:

    Indeed Trump is now a centrist in the GOP.
    If he or DeSantis don't get the nomination it'll be because someone beats them from the right on purity.

    These days, you’re a RINO if you don’t believe in Jewish space lasers.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Democracy inaction.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,421
    I've got to be honest and admit that since I retired, I'm just not that into politics, don't have a TV licence, or Sky/cable, in fact we just don't watch telly and barely read any current affairs stuff on t'net. I didn't even see a single game of the world cup.
    So, forgive me if I sound naive, but is Trump really in with a shot of running again? It's only a year ago that armed nutters were stalking around the White House looking for prominent Democrats to kidnap in his name. Why the fixation with him? There's 360 million folk in the US, surely there has to be a better choice than Trump or Biden. Is US politics really that fecked? I thought we had it bad!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    Reportedly the concessions include a $75bn cut in defence - presumably aimed at support for Ukraine.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    Reportedly the concessions include a $75bn cut in defence - presumably aimed at support for Ukraine.
    Is it as deliberate as that, or just an inevitable consequence of wanting a balanced budget and no new taxes?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,299
    kjh said:

    @Eabhal Fpt. I note you say you have never skied in Europe, but obviously ski in Scotland quite a bit. I think you will find Europe is for softies and have a whale of a time if you give it a go. Great slopes in France, but most decent resorts are concrete jungles and much skiing is above the tree line so not as pretty as elsewhere. Austria is great, but avoid the small resorts if you are a decent skier. One of my favourites is the Sella Ronda in Italy. Prettier than France, 800 odd km of runs I believe and all accessible as most are on a loop. I think the loop is 37 km from memory and many alternatives for doing it.

    Most ski resorts are oppressively ugly. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe they think looks don’t matter because, snow

    When the last snow melts all these hideous ski towns will be stranded: like hideous gasping fish from a dying lake
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    I've got to be honest and admit that since I retired, I'm just not that into politics, don't have a TV licence, or Sky/cable, in fact we just don't watch telly and barely read any current affairs stuff on t'net. I didn't even see a single game of the world cup.
    So, forgive me if I sound naive, but is Trump really in with a shot of running again? It's only a year ago that armed nutters were stalking around the White House looking for prominent Democrats to kidnap in his name. Why the fixation with him? There's 360 million folk in the US, surely there has to be a better choice than Trump or Biden. Is US politics really that fecked? I thought we had it bad!

    Short version is that he has a very loyal base who will vote for him come what may (perhaps 30% of Republicans) and nobody else has that much, so he could win primaries over a divided field. If the Democrat candidate stumbles for any reason, he could then be in with a shot in the November 2024 election.

    It's not all that likely - maybe 20% chance? - but not impossible, especially if de Santis stumbles.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited January 2023
    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Lack of power will eventually do that. Recent political history in the UK shows our parties are remarkably good at reinventing themselves into electable vehicles once they’re fed up of opposition.

    In all likelihood the Tories will have a rightward shift after losing power. Badenoch has to be the hot favourite to win the membership and she will go heavy on culture war topics. I suspect she’ll cause Labour some headaches and probably attract enough support back to win a few more seats, but she won’t be able to get the party anywhere near an election-winning performance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Labour have spent 13 years in opposition after they lost power in 2010 getting progressively more leftwing ever since Blair left via Brown, then Ed Miliband and culminating in Corbyn.

    The idea they should be applauded for finally electing the relatively centrist Starmer after 4 general election defeats in a row is absurd!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Finland to hand Ukraine Leopard 2 tanks if Europe makes such decision

    Chairman of the Committee on Defense Affairs, Antti Häkkänen, said Finland should transfer Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine if a relevant decision is taken in Europe at a wider level
    https://mobile.twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1611656389079834626
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    numbertwelve said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Lack of power will eventually do that. Recent political history in the UK shows our parties are remarkably good at reinventing themselves into electable vehicles once they’re fed up of opposition.

    In all likelihood the Tories will have a rightward shift after losing power. Badenoch has to be the hot favourite to win the membership and she will go heavy on culture war topics.
    Didn’t work for the Liberals between the wars did it?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,299
    This is incredible. Prince Andrew’s $12m deal with Virginia Underage bought him… just one year of silence. The year expires in February


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    Reportedly the concessions include a $75bn cut in defence - presumably aimed at support for Ukraine.
    Which given their slender lead in the House and the fact Biden and the Senate support more funds for Ukraine is not even certain to get through anyway, especially if a few moderate Republicans in turn defect to oppose and such cuts
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    OldKingCole said:

    numbertwelve said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Lack of power will eventually do that. Recent political history in the UK shows our parties are remarkably good at reinventing themselves into electable vehicles once they’re fed up of opposition.

    In all likelihood the Tories will have a rightward shift after losing power. Badenoch has to be the hot favourite to win the membership and she will go heavy on culture war topics.
    Didn’t work for the Liberals between the wars did it?
    I did say “recent” political history. You can always find exceptions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Leon said:

    This is incredible. Prince Andrew’s $12m deal with Virginia Underage bought him… just one year of silence. The year expires in February


    Maybe he'll take out a rolling month-to-month contract.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    edited January 2023
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    I've got to be honest and admit that since I retired, I'm just not that into politics, don't have a TV licence, or Sky/cable, in fact we just don't watch telly and barely read any current affairs stuff on t'net. I didn't even see a single game of the world cup.
    So, forgive me if I sound naive, but is Trump really in with a shot of running again? It's only a year ago that armed nutters were stalking around the White House looking for prominent Democrats to kidnap in his name. Why the fixation with him? There's 360 million folk in the US, surely there has to be a better choice than Trump or Biden. Is US politics really that fecked? I thought we had it bad!

    I must admit to being surprised on the upside by Biden. He seems to be enjoying himself, and riding the crises of the last 2 years quite well. Apart from his age (and Americans don't seem to be bothered by gerontocracy) there is very little reason for him to not be re-elected. Politically he is a throwback to an earlier Democrat era, but the culture war of issues of his formative years are fairly uncontroversial now.

    I would like Buttigeig as his VP though, and not just for betting reasons.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Dura_Ace said:

    StillWaters said:

    Foxy said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Kill 25 people get bad karma.

    I can't believe the publishers allowed that to be included.

    I mean maybe it doesn't matter if Prince Harry, the Royal Family and the British people are terrorist targets but you wouldn't have thought it's a position Random House would want to find themselves in would you?
    Perhaps Harry thinks the Taliban claim will force us to pay for his 24x7 security.
    Am I the only one not surprised that Army active service as an Apache pilot/weapons officer involves killing people? Or that military training deliberately desensitises people to the task?

    Surely that was what he was there to do?
    The issue is the dehumanised way he talked about them (like they were characters ina computer game). Real soldiers don’t do that.

    What the fuck is a 'real' soldier?
    One that’s adjusted for inflation?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    Reportedly the concessions include a $75bn cut in defence - presumably aimed at support for Ukraine.
    Which given their slender lead in the House and the fact Biden and the Senate support more funds for Ukraine is not even certain to get through anyway, especially if a few moderate Republicans in turn defect to oppose and such cuts
    I reckon that Biden is good at bipartisanship and can get his Ukraine packages through. It is only the nuttier end of the Republican party that wants to see Putin win.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    numbertwelve said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    That's always been the case. Trump isn't especially right wing by Republican standards (that's why he got elected). He's just more shameless and dishonest.
    Trumps most incredible achievement was persuading the evangelical lobby (eg the lot who thought the angels from Africa and South America were going to swoop in and save the day in the 2020 election), that he was their great hope.
    But he delivered them an end to legal abortion rights so they can't feel shortchanged. It was a very transactional relationship on both sides, but a mutually productive one, unfortunately.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358
    OldKingCole said:

    numbertwelve said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Lack of power will eventually do that. Recent political history in the UK shows our parties are remarkably good at reinventing themselves into electable vehicles once they’re fed up of opposition.

    In all likelihood the Tories will have a rightward shift after losing power. Badenoch has to be the hot favourite to win the membership and she will go heavy on culture war topics.
    Didn’t work for the Liberals between the wars did
    it?
    The Liberals left no stone unturned in their determination to destroy themselves and rival factions.

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    HYUFD said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    That's always been the case. Trump isn't especially right wing by Republican standards (that's why he got elected). He's just more shameless and dishonest.
    Compared to say McCain or Romney or even the Bushes he is.

    In fact he was probably the most Conservative and rightwing GOP Presidential nominee since Reagan or Goldwater, especially with evangelical Pence on the ticket too
    Trump was to the right of them on social issues but to the left economically. Compared to Bush Jr I think overall he was quite similar, the difference was more in style than substance. There are loads of Republicans way to the right of Trump in Congress, especially in the House.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    Reportedly the concessions include a $75bn cut in defence - presumably aimed at support for Ukraine.
    Which given their slender lead in the House and the fact Biden and the Senate support more funds for Ukraine is not even certain to get through anyway, especially if a few moderate Republicans in turn defect to oppose and such cuts
    I reckon that Biden is good at bipartisanship and can get his Ukraine packages through. It is only the nuttier end of the Republican party that wants to see Putin win.
    Biden would do much better with the Ukraine packages, if he didn’t try to attach a massively inflated ‘price’ to the equipment delivered. Most of the equipment is existing, old, and much of it almost obsolete, so saying it’s worth tens of billions each time just infuriates those wishing to keep spending under control. That the money was already spent in some cases decades ago, is an inconvenient truth for both sides.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    Leon said:

    This is incredible. Prince Andrew’s $12m deal with Virginia Underage bought him… just one year of silence. The year expires in February


    I don’t think the new owners of the firm are going to be as generous as mummy was when it comes to future gagging.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    @Eabhal Fpt. I note you say you have never skied in Europe, but obviously ski in Scotland quite a bit. I think you will find Europe is for softies and have a whale of a time if you give it a go. Great slopes in France, but most decent resorts are concrete jungles and much skiing is above the tree line so not as pretty as elsewhere. Austria is great, but avoid the small resorts if you are a decent skier. One of my favourites is the Sella Ronda in Italy. Prettier than France, 800 odd km of runs I believe and all accessible as most are on a loop. I think the loop is 37 km from memory and many alternatives for doing it.

    Most ski resorts are oppressively ugly. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe they think looks don’t matter because, snow

    When the last snow melts all these hideous ski towns will be stranded: like hideous gasping fish from a dying lake
    France is very ugly. The rest not so much, although my experience is limited as I haven't been to most out of season other than Austria glacier skiing in the summer.

    I'm guessing because the snowline is much higher in France than the rest of Europe, so there are few villages at the good skiing level, so the decent resorts are purpose built and crammed in concrete blocks to keep the price down. They are awful. Elsewhere decent skiing can start at village/town level so they aren't as bad and you also get trees, unlike France where you have to ski lower to get tree lined routes. Compare Avoriaz to Morzine. Same resort. Avoriaz is ghastly, Morzine nicer, but if the snow is dodgy you want to be in Avoriaz or it is long queues for the lift.

    Also hence my previous comment on getting to these resorts. In France you need a transfer because trains do not go to the resorts, in Austria you can just pop onto a cheap train. Another comment on price also is that with Whitsun skiing you can get off peak passes and ski hire.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    Leon said:

    This is incredible. Prince Andrew’s $12m deal with Virginia Underage bought him… just one year of silence. The year expires in February


    The deal ensured no civil action will be brought by her in the courts whatever she says about Epstein
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    HYUFD said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Labour have spent 13 years in opposition after they lost power in 2010 getting progressively more leftwing ever since Blair left via Brown, then Ed Miliband and culminating in Corbyn.

    The idea they should be applauded for finally electing the relatively centrist Starmer after 4 general election defeats in a row is absurd!
    Though in the chronology of wilderness, Starmer fits in the slot occupied by Kinnock (post Foot) or Howard (post IDS)- the one who creates the conditions where an electable successor can emerge after
    another defeat or two.

    I suspect that was Starmer's brief in 2020. The fact that we're pretty much all expecting him to be PM one way or another in 2024 is remarkable, really.

    And yes, some of it is because Corbyn and co were so terribly unelectable. And some of it is that the Conservative governments since than have been increasingly clown car-ish. But also the current Labour management have done their part of the job better than anyone had a right to expect.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Stuartinromford said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    Reportedly the concessions include a $75bn cut in defence - presumably aimed at support for Ukraine.
    Is it as deliberate as that, or just an inevitable consequence of wanting a balanced budget and no new taxes?
    The presumption is based on the previously stated positions of the Gaetz crew.
    It's not certain - but seems fairly likely to me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    Stuartinromford said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Labour have spent 13 years in opposition after they lost power in 2010 getting progressively more leftwing ever since Blair left via Brown, then Ed Miliband and culminating in Corbyn.

    The idea they should be applauded for finally electing the relatively centrist Starmer after 4 general election defeats in a row is absurd!
    Though in the chronology of wilderness, Starmer fits in the slot occupied by Kinnock (post Foot) or Howard (post IDS)- the one who creates the conditions where an electable successor can emerge after
    another defeat or two.

    I suspect that was Starmer's brief in 2020. The fact that we're pretty much all expecting him to be PM one way or another in 2024 is remarkable, really.

    And yes, some of it is because Corbyn and co were so terribly unelectable. And some of it is that the Conservative governments since than have been increasingly clown car-ish. But also the current Labour management have done their part of the job better than anyone had a right to expect.
    No doesn't. Kinnock became Labour leader after 2 general election defeats and just 4 years out of power and Howard Tory leader after 2 general election defeats and 6 years out of power.

    Starmer became Labour leader after 4 general election defeats and 10 years out of power. There was a willingness for Labour to shift to the centre as with Blair and as with the Tories with Cameron as they had been in opposition so long
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    edited January 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,299
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    @Eabhal Fpt. I note you say you have never skied in Europe, but obviously ski in Scotland quite a bit. I think you will find Europe is for softies and have a whale of a time if you give it a go. Great slopes in France, but most decent resorts are concrete jungles and much skiing is above the tree line so not as pretty as elsewhere. Austria is great, but avoid the small resorts if you are a decent skier. One of my favourites is the Sella Ronda in Italy. Prettier than France, 800 odd km of runs I believe and all accessible as most are on a loop. I think the loop is 37 km from memory and many alternatives for doing it.

    Most ski resorts are oppressively ugly. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe they think looks don’t matter because, snow

    When the last snow melts all these hideous ski towns will be stranded: like hideous gasping fish from a dying lake
    France is very ugly. The rest not so much, although my experience is limited as I haven't been to most out of season other than Austria glacier skiing in the summer.

    I'm guessing because the snowline is much higher in France than the rest of Europe, so there are few villages at the good skiing level, so the decent resorts are purpose built and crammed in concrete blocks to keep the price down. They are awful. Elsewhere decent skiing can start at village/town level so they aren't as bad and you also get trees, unlike France where you have to ski lower to get tree lined routes. Compare Avoriaz to Morzine. Same resort. Avoriaz is ghastly, Morzine nicer, but if the snow is dodgy you want to be in Avoriaz or it is long queues for the lift.

    Also hence my previous comment on getting to these resorts. In France you need a transfer because trains do not go to the resorts, in Austria you can just pop onto a cheap train. Another comment on price also is that with Whitsun skiing you can get off peak passes and ski hire.
    Italian and Spanish ski towns can be fugly, as well. Timing must be something to do with it. Skiing boomed in the 60s-70s when a lot of architecture was dire
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785
    Theuniondivvie said:

    Leon said:

    This is incredible. Prince Andrew’s $12m deal with Virginia Underage bought him… just one year of silence. The year expires in February


    I don’t think the new owners of the firm are going to be as generous as mummy was when it comes to future gagging.
    In a way, the timing might work for them. All the noise about Harry's book and if more Epstein/Andrew stuff makes the news for a while in the same timeframe. Then just hope by the coronation it's died down and something like normality is restored.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    edited January 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Labour have spent 13 years in opposition after they lost power in 2010 getting progressively more leftwing ever since Blair left via Brown, then Ed Miliband and culminating in Corbyn.

    The idea they should be applauded for finally electing the relatively centrist Starmer after 4 general election defeats in a row is absurd!
    Though in the chronology of wilderness, Starmer fits in the slot occupied by Kinnock (post Foot) or Howard (post IDS)- the one who creates the conditions where an electable successor can emerge after
    another defeat or two.

    I suspect that was Starmer's brief in 2020. The fact that we're pretty much all expecting him to be PM one way or another in 2024 is remarkable, really.

    And yes, some of it is because Corbyn and co were so terribly unelectable. And some of it is that the Conservative governments since than have been increasingly clown car-ish. But also the current Labour management have done their part of the job better than anyone had a right to expect.
    No doesn't. Kinnock became Labour leader after 2 general election defeats and just 4 years out of power and Howard Tory leader after 2 general election defeats and 6 years out of power.

    Starmer became Labour leader after 4 general election defeats and 10 years out of power. There was a willingness for Labour to shift to the centre as with Blair and as with the Tories with Cameron as they had been in opposition so long
    I think that you have to allow for the unusual political chaos and high turnover of leaders of both parties since the Brexit referendum. Starmer was elected leader under 10 years after the fall of Brown, and a significant memory of the New Labour times remains with PLP, LP membership and the public, so there is a solid base to fall back on. Not that I am a fan of Starmerism or planning to vote for him.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    Betting Post. 🐎 Horse Racing!

    1.15 Sandown - Certainly Red
    1.30 Wincanton - Galahad Quest
    2.25 Sandown - Arctic Bresil
    15.00 Sandown - Snow Leopardess
    😍 Snow Leopardess. Next time she wins I’m on her
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,655
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    @Eabhal Fpt. I note you say you have never skied in Europe, but obviously ski in Scotland quite a bit. I think you will find Europe is for softies and have a whale of a time if you give it a go. Great slopes in France, but most decent resorts are concrete jungles and much skiing is above the tree line so not as pretty as elsewhere. Austria is great, but avoid the small resorts if you are a decent skier. One of my favourites is the Sella Ronda in Italy. Prettier than France, 800 odd km of runs I believe and all accessible as most are on a loop. I think the loop is 37 km from memory and many alternatives for doing it.

    Most ski resorts are oppressively ugly. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe they think looks don’t matter because, snow

    When the last snow melts all these hideous ski towns will be stranded: like hideous gasping fish from a dying lake
    France is very ugly. The rest not so much, although my experience is limited as I haven't been to most out of season other than Austria glacier skiing in the summer.

    I'm guessing because the snowline is much higher in France than the rest of Europe, so there are few villages at the good skiing level, so the decent resorts are purpose built and crammed in concrete blocks to keep the price down. They are awful. Elsewhere decent skiing can start at village/town level so they aren't as bad and you also get trees, unlike France where you have to ski lower to get tree lined routes. Compare Avoriaz to Morzine. Same resort. Avoriaz is ghastly, Morzine nicer, but if the snow is dodgy you want to be in Avoriaz or it is long queues for the lift.

    Also hence my previous comment on getting to these resorts. In France you need a transfer because trains do not go to the resorts, in Austria you can just pop onto a cheap train. Another comment on price also is that with Whitsun skiing you can get off peak passes and ski hire.
    Italian and Spanish ski towns can be fugly, as well. Timing must be something to do with it. Skiing boomed in the 60s-70s when a lot of architecture was dire
    It is a long time since I have been skiing, but the purpose built resorts tended to be much higher up the mountains, so people could ski immediately, and tend to be concrete blocks. The older resorts in Switzerland and Austria tend to be lower down with a more village feel, but often little snow at that level.

    I think the alps have a very limited future as ski resorts as climate change continues.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
    At least one major party is staying true to its core ideology:

    https://twitter.com/libdems/status/1611693128158777345?s=46&t=BYpKVCc3j0eaZY6q03IHbA
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    @Eabhal Fpt. I note you say you have never skied in Europe, but obviously ski in Scotland quite a bit. I think you will find Europe is for softies and have a whale of a time if you give it a go. Great slopes in France, but most decent resorts are concrete jungles and much skiing is above the tree line so not as pretty as elsewhere. Austria is great, but avoid the small resorts if you are a decent skier. One of my favourites is the Sella Ronda in Italy. Prettier than France, 800 odd km of runs I believe and all accessible as most are on a loop. I think the loop is 37 km from memory and many alternatives for doing it.

    Most ski resorts are oppressively ugly. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe they think looks don’t matter because, snow

    When the last snow melts all these hideous ski towns will be stranded: like hideous gasping fish from a dying lake
    France is very ugly. The rest not so much, although my experience is limited as I haven't been to most out of season other than Austria glacier skiing in the summer.

    I'm guessing because the snowline is much higher in France than the rest of Europe, so there are few villages at the good skiing level, so the decent resorts are purpose built and crammed in concrete blocks to keep the price down. They are awful. Elsewhere decent skiing can start at village/town level so they aren't as bad and you also get trees, unlike France where you have to ski lower to get tree lined routes. Compare Avoriaz to Morzine. Same resort. Avoriaz is ghastly, Morzine nicer, but if the snow is dodgy you want to be in Avoriaz or it is long queues for the lift.

    Also hence my previous comment on getting to these resorts. In France you need a transfer because trains do not go to the resorts, in Austria you can just pop onto a cheap train. Another comment on price also is that with Whitsun skiing you can get off peak passes and ski hire.
    Italian and Spanish ski towns can be fugly, as well. Timing must be something to do with it. Skiing boomed in the 60s-70s when a lot of architecture was dire
    Never skied in Spain. My Italian skiing is limited to umpteen resorts in the Sella Ronda that from memory all seemed nice. My Italian Alps skiing is limited to skiing over the top from France or Switzerland so i haven't got into the heart of resorts properly, but I can imagine they might be dire. I'm struggling to think of what Swiss resorts look like.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,299
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    @Eabhal Fpt. I note you say you have never skied in Europe, but obviously ski in Scotland quite a bit. I think you will find Europe is for softies and have a whale of a time if you give it a go. Great slopes in France, but most decent resorts are concrete jungles and much skiing is above the tree line so not as pretty as elsewhere. Austria is great, but avoid the small resorts if you are a decent skier. One of my favourites is the Sella Ronda in Italy. Prettier than France, 800 odd km of runs I believe and all accessible as most are on a loop. I think the loop is 37 km from memory and many alternatives for doing it.

    Most ski resorts are oppressively ugly. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe they think looks don’t matter because, snow

    When the last snow melts all these hideous ski towns will be stranded: like hideous gasping fish from a dying lake
    France is very ugly. The rest not so much, although my experience is limited as I haven't been to most out of season other than Austria glacier skiing in the summer.

    I'm guessing because the snowline is much higher in France than the rest of Europe, so there are few villages at the good skiing level, so the decent resorts are purpose built and crammed in concrete blocks to keep the price down. They are awful. Elsewhere decent skiing can start at village/town level so they aren't as bad and you also get trees, unlike France where you have to ski lower to get tree lined routes. Compare Avoriaz to Morzine. Same resort. Avoriaz is ghastly, Morzine nicer, but if the snow is dodgy you want to be in Avoriaz or it is long queues for the lift.

    Also hence my previous comment on getting to these resorts. In France you need a transfer because trains do not go to the resorts, in Austria you can just pop onto a cheap train. Another comment on price also is that with Whitsun skiing you can get off peak passes and ski hire.
    Italian and Spanish ski towns can be fugly, as well. Timing must be something to do with it. Skiing boomed in the 60s-70s when a lot of architecture was dire
    Never skied in Spain. My Italian skiing is limited to umpteen resorts in the Sella Ronda that from memory all seemed nice. My Italian Alps skiing is limited to skiing over the top from France or Switzerland so i haven't got into the heart of resorts properly, but I can imagine they might be dire. I'm struggling to think of what Swiss resorts look like.
    Expensive
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    I quite like the modernist French resorts (in the snow, they are horrendous in the summer).

    Last skiing holiday was Avoriaz. In the snow it’s a very pleasant, compact resort with everything walkable / skiable. In summer it looks like the Gulag.

    I’ve skied mostly in St Gervais and that’s a very pretty town with varied terrain and incredible views of Mt Blanc, but much more spread out.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    edited January 2023
    TimS said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
    At least one major party is staying true to its core ideology:

    https://twitter.com/libdems/status/1611693128158777345?s=46&t=BYpKVCc3j0eaZY6q03IHbA
    Having shelled out £100 this week because my son drove into a 16cm deep pothole in the middle of the road, that’s an ideology with some merit.

    Seriously, we need a an economically liberal Liberal party again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    ohnotnow said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Leon said:

    This is incredible. Prince Andrew’s $12m deal with Virginia Underage bought him… just one year of silence. The year expires in February


    I don’t think the new owners of the firm are going to be as generous as mummy was when it comes to future gagging.
    In a way, the timing might work for them. All the noise about Harry's book and if more Epstein/Andrew stuff makes the news for a while in the same timeframe. Then just hope by the coronation it's died down and something like normality is restored.
    Then the King can formally restrict the
    HRH titles to working royals only after the coronation, cutting off Andrew and the Sussexes in the process. He should also just restrict the title of Prince and Princess too to children of the monarch and heir going forward
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    edited January 2023
    HYUFD said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Leon said:

    This is incredible. Prince Andrew’s $12m deal with Virginia Underage bought him… just one year of silence. The year expires in February


    I don’t think the new owners of the firm are going to be as generous as mummy was when it comes to future gagging.
    In a way, the timing might work for them. All the noise about Harry's book and if more Epstein/Andrew stuff makes the news for a while in the same timeframe. Then just hope by the coronation it's died down and something like normality is restored.
    Then the King can formally restrict the
    HRH titles to working royals only after the coronation, cutting off Andrew and the Sussexes in the process. He should also just restrict the title of Prince and Princess too to children of the monarch and heir going forward
    Alternatively take the Elon Musk route and sell them for a monthly recurring fee. HRH is the ultimate blue tick.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    edited January 2023
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    @Eabhal Fpt. I note you say you have never skied in Europe, but obviously ski in Scotland quite a bit. I think you will find Europe is for softies and have a whale of a time if you give it a go. Great slopes in France, but most decent resorts are concrete jungles and much skiing is above the tree line so not as pretty as elsewhere. Austria is great, but avoid the small resorts if you are a decent skier. One of my favourites is the Sella Ronda in Italy. Prettier than France, 800 odd km of runs I believe and all accessible as most are on a loop. I think the loop is 37 km from memory and many alternatives for doing it.

    Most ski resorts are oppressively ugly. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe they think looks don’t matter because, snow

    When the last snow melts all these hideous ski towns will be stranded: like hideous gasping fish from a dying lake
    France is very ugly. The rest not so much, although my experience is limited as I haven't been to most out of season other than Austria glacier skiing in the summer.

    I'm guessing because the snowline is much higher in France than the rest of Europe, so there are few villages at the good skiing level, so the decent resorts are purpose built and crammed in concrete blocks to keep the price down. They are awful. Elsewhere decent skiing can start at village/town level so they aren't as bad and you also get trees, unlike France where you have to ski lower to get tree lined routes. Compare Avoriaz to Morzine. Same resort. Avoriaz is ghastly, Morzine nicer, but if the snow is dodgy you want to be in Avoriaz or it is long queues for the lift.

    Also hence my previous comment on getting to these resorts. In France you need a transfer because trains do not go to the resorts, in Austria you can just pop onto a cheap train. Another comment on price also is that with Whitsun skiing you can get off peak passes and ski hire.
    Italian and Spanish ski towns can be fugly, as well. Timing must be something to do with it. Skiing boomed in the 60s-70s when a lot of architecture was dire
    Never skied in Spain. My Italian skiing is limited to umpteen resorts in the Sella Ronda that from memory all seemed nice. My Italian Alps skiing is limited to skiing over the top from France or Switzerland so i haven't got into the heart of resorts properly, but I can imagine they might be dire. I'm struggling to think of what Swiss resorts look like.
    Expensive
    Switzerland can be done quite cheaply with a bit of effort. I did Zermatt during school holidays. Cheap flight, train to the resort and 6 of us in a 1 bed apartment (4 in the living room). I did Mark Warner to Verbier outside of school holidays. Can't remember what it cost and it won't have been cheap, but got a massive discount by booking at the last moment.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Jonathan said:

    TimS said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
    At least one major party is staying true to its core ideology:

    https://twitter.com/libdems/status/1611693128158777345?s=46&t=BYpKVCc3j0eaZY6q03IHbA
    Having shelled out £100 this week because my son drove into a 16cm deep pothole in the middle of the road, that’s an ideology with some merit.

    Seriously, we need a an economically liberal Liberal party again.
    When I did that I got the council to cough up. I didn't think they would, but they did.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,828
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    So basically conservativism is defined by whatever you happen to believe is it? And what about conservatism? Or is that something completely different?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited January 2023
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Labour have spent 13 years in opposition after they lost power in 2010 getting progressively more leftwing ever since Blair left via Brown, then Ed Miliband and culminating in Corbyn.

    The idea they should be applauded for finally electing the relatively centrist Starmer after 4 general election defeats in a row is absurd!
    Though in the chronology of wilderness, Starmer fits in the slot occupied by Kinnock (post Foot) or Howard (post IDS)- the one who creates the conditions where an electable successor can emerge after
    another defeat or two.

    I suspect that was Starmer's brief in 2020. The fact that we're pretty much all expecting him to be PM one way or another in 2024 is remarkable, really.

    And yes, some of it is because Corbyn and co were so terribly unelectable. And some of it is that the Conservative governments since than have been increasingly clown car-ish. But also the current Labour management have done their part of the job better than anyone had a right to expect.
    No doesn't. Kinnock became Labour leader after 2 general election defeats and just 4 years out of power and Howard Tory leader after 2 general election defeats and 6 years out of power.

    Starmer became Labour leader after 4 general election defeats and 10 years out of power. There was a willingness for Labour to shift to the centre as with Blair and as with the Tories with Cameron as they had been in opposition so long
    I think that you have to allow for the unusual political chaos and high turnover of leaders of both parties since the Brexit referendum. Starmer was elected leader under 10 years after the fall of Brown, and a significant memory of the New Labour times remains with PLP, LP membership and the public, so there is a solid base to fall back on. Not that I am a fan of Starmerism or planning to vote for him.
    Labour has turned over leader once since the referendum. That's hardly high.
    In fact, they've had only 5 leaders since 1994.
    The Tories have managed that in fewer than seven years.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,421
    edited January 2023
    TimS said:

    I quite like the modernist French resorts (in the snow, they are horrendous in the summer).

    Last skiing holiday was Avoriaz. In the snow it’s a very pleasant, compact resort with everything walkable / skiable. In summer it looks like the Gulag.

    I’ve skied mostly in St Gervais and that’s a very pretty town with varied terrain and incredible views of Mt Blanc, but much more spread out.

    Ski resorts in Summer are starting to get to grips with the fact that they are fantastic places for mountain biking, if you can utilise the ski/chair lift as an uplift to get your bike to the top. Did Fort William in April last year and it was phenomenal, even with the torrential rain. Funds willing, we hope to travel to Europe this year to try out some other resorts.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    TimS said:

    I quite like the modernist French resorts (in the snow, they are horrendous in the summer).

    Last skiing holiday was Avoriaz. In the snow it’s a very pleasant, compact resort with everything walkable / skiable. In summer it looks like the Gulag.

    I’ve skied mostly in St Gervais and that’s a very pretty town with varied terrain and incredible views of Mt Blanc, but much more spread out.

    Ski resorts in Summer are starting to get to grips with the fact that they are fantastic places for mountain biking, if you can utilise the ski/chair lift as an uplift to get your bike to the top. Did Fort William in April last year and it was phenomenal, even with the torrential rain. Funds willing, we hope to travel to Europe this year to try out some other resorts.
    La Clusaz is very nice for summer stuff.
    I remember seeing the mountain bikers ripping down the mountainside at Nevis range a couple of years ago and it was terrifying.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited January 2023
    Phenomenal amount of red tape to go through to start doing my job on Monday.
    The job I've been doing since September.
    No change in status, but am uploading my qualifications, proofs of right to work, safeguarding certificate, signed photo, references, recent bank statement, DBS, ID, bank details, CV, work history amongst others, for the fourth time in four months.
    Tedious.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    dixiedean said:

    Phenomenal amount of red tape to go through to start doing my job on Monday.
    The job I've been doing since September.
    No change in status, but am uploading my qualifications and proofs of right to work, safeguarding certificate and DBS for the fourth time in four months.
    Tedious.

    You’re not King Charles are you?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    dixiedean said:

    Phenomenal amount of red tape to go through to start doing my job on Monday.
    The job I've been doing since September.
    No change in status, but am uploading my qualifications, proofs of right to work, safeguarding certificate, signed photo, references, recent bank statement, DBS, ID, bank details amongst others, for the fourth time in four months.
    Tedious.

    Would this be teaching perchance?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Phenomenal amount of red tape to go through to start doing my job on Monday.
    The job I've been doing since September.
    No change in status, but am uploading my qualifications and proofs of right to work, safeguarding certificate and DBS for the fourth time in four months.
    Tedious.

    You’re not King Charles are you?
    No.
    The PM.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,421
    TimS said:

    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    TimS said:

    I quite like the modernist French resorts (in the snow, they are horrendous in the summer).

    Last skiing holiday was Avoriaz. In the snow it’s a very pleasant, compact resort with everything walkable / skiable. In summer it looks like the Gulag.

    I’ve skied mostly in St Gervais and that’s a very pretty town with varied terrain and incredible views of Mt Blanc, but much more spread out.

    Ski resorts in Summer are starting to get to grips with the fact that they are fantastic places for mountain biking, if you can utilise the ski/chair lift as an uplift to get your bike to the top. Did Fort William in April last year and it was phenomenal, even with the torrential rain. Funds willing, we hope to travel to Europe this year to try out some other resorts.
    La Clusaz is very nice for summer stuff.
    I remember seeing the mountain bikers ripping down the mountainside at Nevis range a couple of years ago and it was terrifying.
    We were at the DH World Cup in Fort William. Elite MTBers are some of the best athletes in the world, but also barely known!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Phenomenal amount of red tape to go through to start doing my job on Monday.
    The job I've been doing since September.
    No change in status, but am uploading my qualifications and proofs of right to work, safeguarding certificate and DBS for the fourth time in four months.
    Tedious.

    You’re not King Charles are you?
    No.
    The PM.
    In that case I wouldn’t bother with the paperwork if I were you, it’s a waste of time for such a short contract. Invest your energy in finding the next gig. Perhaps retrain as a Maths teacher. Sounds like you might enjoy that more.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
    There are many different definitions or versions of conservatism.

    The one I have some sympathy with is the temperament which believes in preserving existing institutions unless it can be shown that there is a better replacement - as opposed to just tearing stuff down and seeing what happens next.
    That’s why the Brexit project was, in those terms, a profoundly unconservative one.
    There could have been a conservative case for Brexit, but it was never made.

    An ideological belief in small state / monarchy stuff (as displayed by HYUFD) is irrelevant to that form of conservatism.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Ukraine's Cabinet has terminated Russia-Ukraine intergovt agreement on the extension of the operation of the 15P118M missile systems (R-36 family of ICBMs) signed in 2006 under which Dnipro-based developer & manufacturer used to service the Russian ICBMs
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1611705459433431041
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
    There are many different definitions or versions of conservatism.

    The one I have some sympathy with is the temperament which believes in preserving existing institutions unless it can be shown that there is a better replacement - as opposed to just tearing stuff down and seeing what happens next.
    That’s why the Brexit project was, in those terms, a profoundly unconservative one.
    There could have been a conservative case for Brexit, but it was never made.

    An ideological belief in small state / monarchy stuff (as displayed by HYUFD) is irrelevant to that form of conservatism.
    No it isn't, it is opposed to republicanism and socialism tearing down monarchy and eroding private property and free enterprise by definition
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,933
    FrankBooth said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    So basically conservativism is defined by whatever you happen to believe is it? And what about conservatism? Or is that something completely different?
    No that is conservatism the world over ie support for a small state and social conservativism, adapted as may be by the times.

    Toryism just adds on support for the monarchy, established church etc
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Stuartinromford said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    Reportedly the concessions include a $75bn cut in defence - presumably aimed at support for Ukraine.
    Is it as deliberate as that, or just an inevitable consequence of wanting a balanced budget and no new taxes?
    Since when have they cared about a balanced budget when they were in control?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    dixiedean said:

    Phenomenal amount of red tape to go through to start doing my job on Monday.
    The job I've been doing since September.
    No change in status, but am uploading my qualifications, proofs of right to work, safeguarding certificate, signed photo, references, recent bank statement, DBS, ID, bank details, CV, work history amongst others, for the fourth time in four months.
    Tedious.

    Sometimes, just sometimes, I begin to wonder if all the hoops HR insist are required actually are required. At least quite so many times.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited January 2023
    The Ukrainians have reportedly modified the Soviet BUK AA system so that it can fire the US Sea Sparrow (RIM 7) missile.
    Of which there are quite a large number around. Old kit, but still effective - and essentially no cost to the US since it’s regarded as obsolete.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-7_Sea_Sparrow

    U.S. aid updated with:

    - 18 155mm M109 SPGs
    - 36 105mm Towed Howitzers
    - 100 M113 APCs
    - 55 MRAPs
    - 138 HMMWVs
    - 500 M982 Excalibur GPS-guided shells
    - RIM-7 SAM Missiles
    https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1611689300122296320
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 452
    Leon said:

    This is incredible. Prince Andrew’s $12m deal with Virginia Underage bought him… just one year of silence. The year expires in February


    Why Virginia Underage? On her own testimony, she wasn't underage. Her claimed three encounters with Andrew all took place when she was 17 in jurisdictions where that was (and is) over the age of consent.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    TimS said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
    At least one major party is staying true to its core ideology:

    https://twitter.com/libdems/status/1611693128158777345?s=46&t=BYpKVCc3j0eaZY6q03IHbA
    I am rather disappointed to see there is no Pothole Party registered with the Electoral Commission.

    There's a Sciene Party, Heritage Party, True & Fair Party, New World Order, Tomorrow's World Order, Londenpendence, Motherworld Party, and so many more, but no Pothole.
  • lintolinto Posts: 38
    edited January 2023
    China spying in the UK.
    https://twitter.com/EditorBTB/status/1611429310614618114?t=sY4hGPff9juvN_ppVtRItw&s=19

    Sounds interesting especially as it doesn't seem like it was targeting anybody specific but everybody.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Phenomenal amount of red tape to go through to start doing my job on Monday.
    The job I've been doing since September.
    No change in status, but am uploading my qualifications and proofs of right to work, safeguarding certificate and DBS for the fourth time in four months.
    Tedious.

    You’re not King Charles are you?
    No.
    The PM.
    Definitely a lie. There's no way Johnson would have passed all those!
    Benefits of friends in high places.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited January 2023
    Deleted.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
    There are many different definitions or versions of conservatism.

    The one I have some sympathy with is the temperament which believes in preserving existing institutions unless it can be shown that there is a better replacement - as opposed to just tearing stuff down and seeing what happens next.
    That’s why the Brexit project was, in those terms, a profoundly unconservative one.
    There could have been a conservative case for Brexit, but it was never made.

    An ideological belief in small state / monarchy stuff (as displayed by HYUFD) is irrelevant to that form of conservatism.
    No it isn't, it is opposed to republicanism and socialism tearing down monarchy and eroding private property and free enterprise by definition
    Your personal definition.
    As I said, there are many forms of conservatism. That you regard yourself as some kind of ideological purist is, in itself, profoundly unconservative.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,828
    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine's Cabinet has terminated Russia-Ukraine intergovt agreement on the extension of the operation of the 15P118M missile systems (R-36 family of ICBMs) signed in 2006 under which Dnipro-based developer & manufacturer used to service the Russian ICBMs
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1611705459433431041

    Probably one of the more predictable consequences of the war.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited January 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Even if it doesn't work for 2024, the calm efficiency with which Labour have ditched Corbyn, his works and his acolytes after the 2019 fiasco is blooming impressive.

    It's not obvious that, if they go down to a famous defeat, the Conservatives will have the people or the will to do the same.
    Labour have spent 13 years in opposition after they lost power in 2010 getting progressively more leftwing ever since Blair left via Brown, then Ed Miliband and culminating in Corbyn.

    The idea they should be applauded for finally electing the relatively centrist Starmer after 4 general election defeats in a row is absurd!
    Maybe applaud is the wrong word, but given just how far they went (not even so much on ideology itself, but in unsuitable leadership), with the full backing of the party members, the swift turnaround is rather impressive, even considering circumstances with their opponents will have helped.

    Will the Tories be able to turn things around like that as swiftly? It's not necessarily promising.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    The concessions to get McCarthy elected Speaker ensure the GOP establishment can't do much without Trumpite support even though they now control the House

    McCarthy *is* a Trumpite. And had Trump's endorsement.

    What it really shows is that - disturbingly - there are senior elected figures among the Republicans who are even madder and more extreme than Trump.
    A bit like how some felt Boris's heart wasn't really in much of the harder Brexit stuff, but those who were elected on that basis include many who really do buy into it hardcore. Trump is so scattershot he clearly doesn't believe in anything, and some have felt many Republicans only pretended to go along with him because they felt they had to - but there's ample evidence to suggest that, no, a lot of them really mean what they say, even if Trump does not.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
    There are many different definitions or versions of conservatism.

    The one I have some sympathy with is the temperament which believes in preserving existing institutions unless it can be shown that there is a better replacement - as opposed to just tearing stuff down and seeing what happens next.
    That’s why the Brexit project was, in those terms, a profoundly unconservative one.
    There could have been a conservative case for Brexit, but it was never made.

    An ideological belief in small state / monarchy stuff (as displayed by HYUFD) is irrelevant to that form of conservatism.
    No it isn't, it is opposed to republicanism and socialism tearing down monarchy and eroding private property and free enterprise by definition
    You are a Socialist because you voted REMAIN!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,299
    edited January 2023
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    @Eabhal Fpt. I note you say you have never skied in Europe, but obviously ski in Scotland quite a bit. I think you will find Europe is for softies and have a whale of a time if you give it a go. Great slopes in France, but most decent resorts are concrete jungles and much skiing is above the tree line so not as pretty as elsewhere. Austria is great, but avoid the small resorts if you are a decent skier. One of my favourites is the Sella Ronda in Italy. Prettier than France, 800 odd km of runs I believe and all accessible as most are on a loop. I think the loop is 37 km from memory and many alternatives for doing it.

    Most ski resorts are oppressively ugly. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe they think looks don’t matter because, snow

    When the last snow melts all these hideous ski towns will be stranded: like hideous gasping fish from a dying lake
    France is very ugly. The rest not so much, although my experience is limited as I haven't been to most out of season other than Austria glacier skiing in the summer.

    I'm guessing because the snowline is much higher in France than the rest of Europe, so there are few villages at the good skiing level, so the decent resorts are purpose built and crammed in concrete blocks to keep the price down. They are awful. Elsewhere decent skiing can start at village/town level so they aren't as bad and you also get trees, unlike France where you have to ski lower to get tree lined routes. Compare Avoriaz to Morzine. Same resort. Avoriaz is ghastly, Morzine nicer, but if the snow is dodgy you want to be in Avoriaz or it is long queues for the lift.

    Also hence my previous comment on getting to these resorts. In France you need a transfer because trains do not go to the resorts, in Austria you can just pop onto a cheap train. Another comment on price also is that with Whitsun skiing you can get off peak passes and ski hire.
    Italian and Spanish ski towns can be fugly, as well. Timing must be something to do with it. Skiing boomed in the 60s-70s when a lot of architecture was dire
    Never skied in Spain. My Italian skiing is limited to umpteen resorts in the Sella Ronda that from memory all seemed nice. My Italian Alps skiing is limited to skiing over the top from France or Switzerland so i haven't got into the heart of resorts properly, but I can imagine they might be dire. I'm struggling to think of what Swiss resorts look like.
    Expensive
    Switzerland can be done quite cheaply with a bit of effort. I did Zermatt during school holidays. Cheap flight, train to the resort and 6 of us in a 1 bed apartment (4 in the living room). I did Mark Warner to Verbier outside of school holidays. Can't remember what it cost and it won't have been cheap, but got a massive discount by booking at the last moment.
    Switzerland is so expensive it’s just not fun. Unless you are on a total freebie

    I went on such a freebie in summer 2021. To Ticino

    I stayed in some RIDICULOUSLY exquisite resorts






    In the second resort (Eden Roc, Ascona) the manager told me my room cost £800 a night and “average Swiss families will pay that”
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    The right (both in the us and U.K.) now resemble the fractured, ideological left of the 1970s. The Republican people’s front vs. The people’s front of the republic. It’s a total mess.

    Given the fractured ideological left of 2015 to 2020 in the UK rather pot kettle
    The right is worse somehow. On the left this sort of nonsense has always been a thing and is priced in, the right have picked up the infection.

    It’s almost as if they have decided to forfeit conservatism in pursuit of factional ideological purity.
    Conservatism is also an ideology as much as socialism is in its purest form
    I’m not sure many conservatives on here might agree with you on that. They argue that conservatism is all about skeptical pragmatism.
    Conservativism is social conservativism mixed with support for a small state and in the UK support for the monarchy too.

    There are skeptical pragmatists in Labour as well as the Tories
    I can buy pragmatic conservatives, but if it goes beyond that conservatism is all about finding elaborate ways to justify walking by on the other side and defending established power. Might is right. That’s why I could never be a conservative.
    There are many different definitions or versions of conservatism.

    The one I have some sympathy with is the temperament which believes in preserving existing institutions unless it can be shown that there is a better replacement - as opposed to just tearing stuff down and seeing what happens next.
    That’s why the Brexit project was, in those terms, a profoundly unconservative one.
    There could have been a conservative case for Brexit, but it was never made.

    An ideological belief in small state / monarchy stuff (as displayed by HYUFD) is irrelevant to that form of conservatism.
    No it isn't, it is opposed to republicanism and socialism tearing down monarchy and eroding private property and free enterprise by definition
    Your personal definition.
    As I said, there are many forms of conservatism. That you regard yourself as some kind of ideological purist is, in itself, profoundly unconservative.
    In one important way, he's right. The one thing all Conservatives have been able to agree on- whether it's Heath or Howard, Major or Truss- is that we don't like Socialism. Pretty much everything else is negotiable.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    edited January 2023
    linto said:

    China spying in the UK.
    https://twitter.com/EditorBTB/status/1611429310614618114?t=sY4hGPff9juvN_ppVtRItw&s=19

    Sounds interesting especially as it doesn't seem like it was targeting anybody specific but everybody.

    Similar to the way they spy on their own population: mass surveillance. Different from the more targeted Russian approach that focuses on important or wealthy individuals.

    Another nail in the coffin of globalisation.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567
    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine's Cabinet has terminated Russia-Ukraine intergovt agreement on the extension of the operation of the 15P118M missile systems (R-36 family of ICBMs) signed in 2006 under which Dnipro-based developer & manufacturer used to service the Russian ICBMs
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1611705459433431041

    Can't imagine the Russians were exactly delighted at the Ukrainians crawling all over their nukes!

    "Ooops......"
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