Cant agree with that. If people have the money and want to spend it on schooling their kids, something the state does for free, let them. Same for healthcare. And driving rather than public transport.
No problem with them paying, but they should pay VAT on it.
SKS's office is probably taking a lot of calls from survivors of those places who want to urge him - and help him - to go further.
The defenders of the existence of such places aren't used to having light shone on what they consider to be their personal affairs, or what they have assumed all their lives that they are "entitled" to. Every year there is a large quantity of filth swept under the carpet...
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Outrageous sentiment to express. Utterly abominable.
'*Fewer* woke bookshops', please.
I’m pretty sure the ones they have are less woke, too.
Being potentially able to rig VAT rules to disadvantage one particular segment of education services is a benefit of Brexit. No way Labour could have got that past a legal challenge in the European court.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
(To be fair to oldsters, not much generational profile. That might change if the Mail carries on being cross, but so far the opinions are pretty stable across age groups.)
The death penalty for murderers and terrorists is also often the will of the people, so what, we are a representative not direct democracy.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
(To be fair to oldsters, not much generational profile. That might change if the Mail carries on being cross, but so far the opinions are pretty stable across age groups.)
The death penalty for murderers and terrorists is also often the will of the people, so what, we are a representative not direct democracy.
Which is why when Labour win a majority in 2024 they will be perfectly entitled to put VAT on school fees.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
Being potentially able to rig VAT rules to disadvantage one particular segment of education services is a benefit of Brexit. No way Labour could have got that past a legal challenge in the European court.
What is this rigging of which you speak? (Well, post.)
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
Being potentially able to rig VAT rules to disadvantage one particular segment of education services is a benefit of Brexit. No way Labour could have got that past a legal challenge in the European court.
What is this rigging of which you speak? (Well, post.)
Apparently planning to remove the exemption on some educational services but not others. University tuition fees and local authority vocational courses, for example, would I assume still be exempt.
Is that scored by a panel of Conservative members?
No, it's scored by a panel of Duran Duran members.
No need for sarcasm, it was a genuine question. I'm not a frequent visitor to ConservativeHome and there was no immediate and obvious explanation of the make-up of the panel on the linked page.
Is that scored by a panel of Conservative members?
No, it's scored by a panel of Duran Duran members.
No need for sarcasm, it was a genuine question. I'm not a frequent visitor to ConservativeHome and there was no immediate and obvious explanation of the make-up of the panel on the linked page.
ConHome followers are not always members, but their polls do have pretty good alignment with the membership on things like leadership contests.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
Labour moving the culture war debate away from ‘what is a woman’ to ‘private schools shouldn’t get tax breaks’ is a pretty smart move by anyone’s measure. Take the initiative while your enemy is disorganised. If they are of choleric temperament - irritate them.
For those who may be interested and who didn't already know: Dillibe Onyeama's famous (and excellent) autobiographical book, "N***** at Eton", has been republished under a new title, "A Black Boy at Eton". It's currently in bookshops.
The story is that the headmaster apologised to him - about half a century after he had left the school and after it had tried to stop his book coming out - and told him he wasn't banned any more ... as if after he'd left he'd ever wanted to visit them anyway. He then said he was prepared to visit to accept their apology in person, so long as they paid his fare. As far as I know, he hasn't actually visited yet. He should have insisted on keeping the original title, but presumably the publisher wanted to avoid giving people ideas and fuelling anyone's anger by making it more lucid. But perhaps he needs the money. Anyway it's a great book. (I've only read the original. The latest effort may possibly be different in other ways than just the title.)
Hey HYUFD, maybe someone will soon write "Chav-Faced Full-Fee Award Recipient at Charterhouse"?
Labour moving the culture war debate away from ‘what is a woman’ to ‘private schools shouldn’t get tax breaks’ is a pretty smart move by anyone’s measure. Take the initiative while your enemy is disorganised. If they are of choleric temperament - irritate them.
This is true, until they are in government and bump into the drawbacks.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
This is where I remind everyone that I used to go to Eton...
...to use their squash courts after work.
A community good - in addition to their educational purpose - maybe they should get some sort of special status for that, eh?
I've lived adjacent to a large, famous private school for 12 years. They contribute absolutely nothing to the local community (apart from the kids spending some money in local shops), although they spend huge amounts on new buildings and facilities.
One day three years ago I was having a pint in my local and got chatting to the Chaplain at the school. Being an educationalist myself, we chatted about the school's place in the local community and its links with state schools. I pointed out that it was largely invisible, and made some suggestions as to how that could be changed. He listened politely, but nothing happened. I also wrote to the Headteacher on the same matter, but he didn't have the courtesy to reply. Anecdotal, I know, but I'm not persuaded that private schools, on the whole, benefit either the local community or the state sector.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
This is where I remind everyone that I used to go to Eton...
...to use their squash courts after work.
A community good - in addition to their educational purpose - maybe they should get some sort of special status for that, eh?
I've lived adjacent to a large, famous private school for 12 years. They contribute absolutely nothing to the local community (apart from the kids spending some money in local shops), although they spend huge amounts on new buildings and facilities.
One day three years ago I was having a pint in my local and got chatting to the Chaplain at the school. Being an educationalist myself, we chatted about the school's place in the local community and its links with state schools. I pointed out that it was largely invisible, and made some suggestions as to how that could be changed. He listened politely, but nothing happened. I also wrote to the Headteacher on the same matter, but he didn't have the courtesy to reply. Anecdotal, I know, but I'm not persuaded that private schools, on the whole, benefit either the local community or the state sector.
Most share pools, athletics tracks, theatres etc with state schools and the local community now.
Some now also sponsor academies, as my old school does with a Medway academy
For those who may be interested and who didn't already know: Dillibe Onyeama's famous (and excellent) autobiographical book, "N***** at Eton", has been republished under a new title, "A Black Boy at Eton". It's currently in bookshops.
The story is that the headmaster apologised to him - about half a century after he had left the school and after it had tried to stop his book coming out - and told him he wasn't banned any more ... as if after he'd left he'd ever wanted to visit them anyway. He then said he was prepared to visit to accept their apology in person, so long as they paid his fare. As far as I know, he hasn't actually visited yet. He should have insisted on keeping the original title, but presumably the publisher wanted to avoid giving people ideas and fuelling anyone's anger by making it more lucid. But perhaps he needs the money. Anyway it's a great book. (I've only read the original. The latest effort may possibly be different in other ways than just the title.)
Hey HYUFD, maybe someone will soon write "Chav-Faced Full-Fee Award Recipient at Charterhouse"?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
Labour moving the culture war debate away from ‘what is a woman’ to ‘private schools shouldn’t get tax breaks’ is a pretty smart move by anyone’s measure. Take the initiative while your enemy is disorganised. If they are of choleric temperament - irritate them.
This is true, until they are in government and bump into the drawbacks.
There's a pretty good chance this ends up like fox-hunting isn't there? Banned in theory, but in practice still able to go ahead. I expect there'd be some definition of charitable purpose - perhaps charitable status would be retained if the school could demonstrate that the value of the charitable activity exceeded that of the tax break? Just think of the forms to fill in!
A lot of sound and fury, passions roused, but little ultimately changed.
This is where I remind everyone that I used to go to Eton...
...to use their squash courts after work.
A community good - in addition to their educational purpose - maybe they should get some sort of special status for that, eh?
I've lived adjacent to a large, famous private school for 12 years. They contribute absolutely nothing to the local community (apart from the kids spending some money in local shops), although they spend huge amounts on new buildings and facilities.
One day three years ago I was having a pint in my local and got chatting to the Chaplain at the school. Being an educationalist myself, we chatted about the school's place in the local community and its links with state schools. I pointed out that it was largely invisible, and made some suggestions as to how that could be changed. He listened politely, but nothing happened. I also wrote to the Headteacher on the same matter, but he didn't have the courtesy to reply. Anecdotal, I know, but I'm not persuaded that private schools, on the whole, benefit either the local community or the state sector.
We don't have any private schools round here. So they aren't adding anything to the community. Nor do they provide "choice". My school is so underfunded it is positively dangerous.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
Labour moving the culture war debate away from ‘what is a woman’ to ‘private schools shouldn’t get tax breaks’ is a pretty smart move by anyone’s measure. Take the initiative while your enemy is disorganised. If they are of choleric temperament - irritate them.
This is true, until they are in government and bump into the drawbacks.
This is where I remind everyone that I used to go to Eton...
...to use their squash courts after work.
A community good - in addition to their educational purpose - maybe they should get some sort of special status for that, eh?
I've lived adjacent to a large, famous private school for 12 years. They contribute absolutely nothing to the local community (apart from the kids spending some money in local shops), although they spend huge amounts on new buildings and facilities.
One day three years ago I was having a pint in my local and got chatting to the Chaplain at the school. Being an educationalist myself, we chatted about the school's place in the local community and its links with state schools. I pointed out that it was largely invisible, and made some suggestions as to how that could be changed. He listened politely, but nothing happened. I also wrote to the Headteacher on the same matter, but he didn't have the courtesy to reply. Anecdotal, I know, but I'm not persuaded that private schools, on the whole, benefit either the local community or the state sector.
On the other hand the very posh Uppingham school has a nice swimming pool which Mrs Foxy likes!
Uppingham School is crazily posh and traditional with boarding more or less mandatory, as are Saturday sports. They do good summer schools in Art, Music and Drama which my boys did some summers.
Their School ethos is rather positive and rounded and unlike other nearby private schools, the kids and teachers are rarely arseholes.
This is where I remind everyone that I used to go to Eton...
...to use their squash courts after work.
A community good - in addition to their educational purpose - maybe they should get some sort of special status for that, eh?
I've lived adjacent to a large, famous private school for 12 years. They contribute absolutely nothing to the local community (apart from the kids spending some money in local shops), although they spend huge amounts on new buildings and facilities.
One day three years ago I was having a pint in my local and got chatting to the Chaplain at the school. Being an educationalist myself, we chatted about the school's place in the local community and its links with state schools. I pointed out that it was largely invisible, and made some suggestions as to how that could be changed. He listened politely, but nothing happened. I also wrote to the Headteacher on the same matter, but he didn't have the courtesy to reply. Anecdotal, I know, but I'm not persuaded that private schools, on the whole, benefit either the local community or the state sector.
The standing joke at Oundle is that the school is rather unusual because there's a town in it.
If VAT was payable now, would anyone be suggesting exempting private school fees?
Given that lots of people propose a voucher system, where parents are given a voucher equal to the value of state spending per pupil on education, that they can then use to part-fund private education, then, yes, I think it is very likely that exempting private school fees from VAT would be a policy proposed by many.
A kinder, sweeter lady you cannot imagine. Loving and warm. When I was upset by my fractured family she would feed me freshly made saffron buns in her house in the Cornish wilds, or hand me some coins to go down to the Carnkie sweet shop for a Curly Wurly
She kept me sane. I loved her dearly. As did everyone else. Yet she used the N word simply because she grew up in a very very different time. I do not judge her by the mores of 2022 (some of which are utterly farcical)
If you disagree I am afraid I will have to slay you in a duel
We had a local Tory councillor who used it too (the woodpile phrase)
I recall in the early eighties being astonished (along with the rest of my British colleagues) that an American manager took offence at that phrase. We thought it a harmless idiom.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
This is where I remind everyone that I used to go to Eton...
...to use their squash courts after work.
A community good - in addition to their educational purpose - maybe they should get some sort of special status for that, eh?
I've lived adjacent to a large, famous private school for 12 years. They contribute absolutely nothing to the local community (apart from the kids spending some money in local shops), although they spend huge amounts on new buildings and facilities.
One day three years ago I was having a pint in my local and got chatting to the Chaplain at the school. Being an educationalist myself, we chatted about the school's place in the local community and its links with state schools. I pointed out that it was largely invisible, and made some suggestions as to how that could be changed. He listened politely, but nothing happened. I also wrote to the Headteacher on the same matter, but he didn't have the courtesy to reply. Anecdotal, I know, but I'm not persuaded that private schools, on the whole, benefit either the local community or the state sector.
On the other hand the very posh Uppingham school has a nice swimming pool which Mrs Foxy likes!
Uppingham School is crazily posh and traditional with boarding more or less mandatory, as are Saturday sports. They do good summer schools in Art, Music and Drama which my boys did some summers.
Their School ethos is rather positive and rounded and unlike other nearby private schools, the kids and teachers are rarely arseholes.
I've played cricket at Sherborne, Milton Abbas, Claysmore, Millfield and Eton. Quiz tournaments at Bryanston. Debated at Radley. As a state school student in various teams and extra curricular activities. They were always gracious hosts. We were put up without a question or a cost at several.
My old prep school had one of the few swimming pools in the area - it was always booked out for parties, local groups, etc. We were pretty much forced to do charitable volunteering of one sort or another.
This seems to be the norm - Northern Al's more the exception.
A kinder, sweeter lady you cannot imagine. Loving and warm. When I was upset by my fractured family she would feed me freshly made saffron buns in her house in the Cornish wilds, or hand me some coins to go down to the Carnkie sweet shop for a Curly Wurly
She kept me sane. I loved her dearly. As did everyone else. Yet she used the N word simply because she grew up in a very very different time. I do not judge her by the mores of 2022 (some of which are utterly farcical)
If you disagree I am afraid I will have to slay you in a duel
We had a local Tory councillor who used it too (the woodpile phrase)
I recall in the early eighties being astonished (along with the rest of my British colleagues) that an American manager took offence at that phrase. We thought it a harmless idiom.
My grandma had a cat called the n-word when she was little. Despite being a product of her time and circumstances she still somehow managed to learn and understand that it was an extremely nasty term.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
Watching these great talents from the Golden Age of Pop Music (1955-2005, as agreed by PB) I get a sense of what it must have been like in Italy, watching Raphael, Michelangelo and Da Vinci (and Donatello and Botticelli and all the rest) drop off the perch
Standing in the piazza in Firenze you'd have said "Heh, no worries, we've got more on the way"... except they weren't on the way. That was it. The Renaissance. The High Renaissance, indeed
After 300 years of continual artistic improvement and endless new talent, suddenly there was a great falling off, and people started listening to rap and drill. Or buying Mannerist paintings by Parmigianino while pretending they were as good as Piero della Francesca
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
The vehement suggestion that education isn't a public good because 'they're posh innit' isn't exactly a shining example of the promise of state education...
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
It is more a subsidy for cheap private schools and bursaries for less well off private school pupils, not the super rich
Watching these great talents from the Golden Age of Pop Music (1955-2005, as agreed by PB) I get a sense of what it must have been like in Italy, watching Raphael, Michelangelo and Da Vinci (and Donatello and Botticelli and all the rest) drop off the perch
Standing in the piazza in Firenze you'd have said "Heh, no worries, we've got more on the way"... except they weren't on the way. That was it. The Renaissance. The High Renaissance, indeed
After 300 years of continual artistic improvement and endless new talent, suddenly there was a great falling off, and people started listening to rap and drill. Or buying Mannerist paintings by Parmigianino while pretending they were as good as Piero della Francesca
Rap was mainstream twenty years before the end of your golden age.
Watching these great talents from the Golden Age of Pop Music (1955-2005, as agreed by PB) I get a sense of what it must have been like in Italy, watching Raphael, Michelangelo and Da Vinci (and Donatello and Botticelli and all the rest) drop off the perch
Standing in the piazza in Firenze you'd have said "Heh, no worries, we've got more on the way"... except they weren't on the way. That was it. The Renaissance. The High Renaissance, indeed
After 300 years of continual artistic improvement and endless new talent, suddenly there was a great falling off, and people started listening to rap and drill. Or buying Mannerist paintings by Parmigianino while pretending they were as good as Piero della Francesca
Rap was mainstream twenty years before the end of your golden age.
Rap was OK at the beginning (Grandmaster Flash) and interesting without ever being noble or profound, now it is dreck
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
I've got nothing against private education and setting up viable businesses to supply the considerable demand for it. I just don't understand why those businesses should get a subsidy? Surely market forces should prevail?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
So in their heart of hearts most leftwingers would ban it if they got the chance
The Rich and Aspirational Elitists buying their children life chances through our fee paying Public Schools is just fucking unjustifiable..unforgiveable, shameful and just fucking depressing....
Until this changes, sadly nothing changes....so, a good start with VAT
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
Watching these great talents from the Golden Age of Pop Music (1955-2005, as agreed by PB) I get a sense of what it must have been like in Italy, watching Raphael, Michelangelo and Da Vinci (and Donatello and Botticelli and all the rest) drop off the perch
Standing in the piazza in Firenze you'd have said "Heh, no worries, we've got more on the way"... except they weren't on the way. That was it. The Renaissance. The High Renaissance, indeed
After 300 years of continual artistic improvement and endless new talent, suddenly there was a great falling off, and people started listening to rap and drill. Or buying Mannerist paintings by Parmigianino while pretending they were as good as Piero della Francesca
Rap was mainstream twenty years before the end of your golden age.
Rap was OK at the beginning (Grandmaster Flash) and interesting without ever being noble or profound, now it is dreck
Mannerism is actually a pretty good analogy
The extent of your wrongness may be beyond the capacity of modern science to measure.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
I've got nothing against private education and setting up viable businesses to supply the considerable demand for it. I just don't understand why those businesses should get a subsidy? Surely market forces should prevail?
Do you think plane travel, train travel, bus travel and private health procedures should also incur 20% VAT?
Watching these great talents from the Golden Age of Pop Music (1955-2005, as agreed by PB) I get a sense of what it must have been like in Italy, watching Raphael, Michelangelo and Da Vinci (and Donatello and Botticelli and all the rest) drop off the perch
Standing in the piazza in Firenze you'd have said "Heh, no worries, we've got more on the way"... except they weren't on the way. That was it. The Renaissance. The High Renaissance, indeed
After 300 years of continual artistic improvement and endless new talent, suddenly there was a great falling off, and people started listening to rap and drill. Or buying Mannerist paintings by Parmigianino while pretending they were as good as Piero della Francesca
Rap was mainstream twenty years before the end of your golden age.
Rap was OK at the beginning (Grandmaster Flash) and interesting without ever being noble or profound, now it is dreck
Mannerism is actually a pretty good analogy
I saw a chart that suggested that the number of key changes in top 10 hits basically collapsed circa 2005 and never recovered.
Some possible statistical evidence for your thesis, then.
I’m which case the analogy is not mannerism but perhaps “the international style” in architecture.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
It is more a subsidy for cheap private schools and bursaries for less well off private school pupils, not the super rich
I agree. It is why I chose the word "wealthy". Most of my friends who send their kids into the private sector are wealthy, but not what I'd call rich. (i.e. substantial combined income, but not asset rich).
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
I've got nothing against private education and setting up viable businesses to supply the considerable demand for it. I just don't understand why those businesses should get a subsidy? Surely market forces should prevail?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
So in their heart of hearts most leftwingers would ban it if they got the chance
The Rich and Aspirational Elitists buying their children life chances through our fee paying Public Schools is just fucking unjustifiable..unforgiveable, shameful and just fucking depressing....
Until this changes, sadly nothing changes....so, a good start with VAT
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
I've got nothing against private education and setting up viable businesses to supply the considerable demand for it. I just don't understand why those businesses should get a subsidy? Surely market forces should prevail?
What subsidy?
Via e.g. tax exemptions which are not normal for service industries, charitable status etc.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
I've got nothing against private education and setting up viable businesses to supply the considerable demand for it. I just don't understand why those businesses should get a subsidy? Surely market forces should prevail?
Agreed. It’s a pretty modest proposal - as I said upthread, I doubt many people were even aware private schooling was zero-rated for VAT. Seems silly.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
It is more a subsidy for cheap private schools and bursaries for less well off private school pupils, not the super rich
I agree. It is why I chose the word "wealthy". Most of my friends who send their kids into the private sector are wealthy, but not what I'd call rich. (i.e. substantial combined income, but not asset rich).
Thats an interesting use of the words.
I'd say wealth implied more generational capacity. Rich is more new money....
My folks are neither. Through their hard work, and sacrifices, to pay for my higher quality prep education they've actually given me social mobility. Ended up at an Oxford college (soz @DJ41), and set up a business that exports (helping BoP), employs, pays taxes and allows me a better life.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
I've got nothing against private education and setting up viable businesses to supply the considerable demand for it. I just don't understand why those businesses should get a subsidy? Surely market forces should prevail?
Do you think plane travel, train travel, bus travel and private health procedures should also incur 20% VAT?
Yes for private health. I’m amazed it wasn’t already subject to VAT.
Yes for air travel (stupid subsidy for a polluting form of transit).
Zero rate bus and train to encourage their use over other modes.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
I've got nothing against private education and setting up viable businesses to supply the considerable demand for it. I just don't understand why those businesses should get a subsidy? Surely market forces should prevail?
Do you think plane travel, train travel, bus travel and private health procedures should also incur 20% VAT?
Plane travel and private health procedures, on balance, yes.
Bus and train travel, no - they really are a public good (and there is no state provision)
The private health care would be different if there was no public provision. But that's a different argument.
For those who may be interested and who didn't already know: Dillibe Onyeama's famous (and excellent) autobiographical book, "N***** at Eton", has been republished under a new title, "A Black Boy at Eton". It's currently in bookshops.
The story is that the headmaster apologised to him - about half a century after he had left the school and after it had tried to stop his book coming out - and told him he wasn't banned any more ... as if after he'd left he'd ever wanted to visit them anyway. He then said he was prepared to visit to accept their apology in person, so long as they paid his fare. As far as I know, he hasn't actually visited yet. He should have insisted on keeping the original title, but presumably the publisher wanted to avoid giving people ideas and fuelling anyone's anger by making it more lucid. But perhaps he needs the money. Anyway it's a great book. (I've only read the original. The latest effort may possibly be different in other ways than just the title.)
Hey HYUFD, maybe someone will soon write "Chav-Faced Full-Fee Award Recipient at Charterhouse"?
A great example of meritocracy I am sure
Argh, you've brought that word into the discussion! In the book in which he coined it, "The Rise of the Meritocracy, 1870-2033", Michael Young wrote (briefly) of the psychological damage inflicted at English boarding schools and how it afflicts some survivors throughout their entire lives.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
So in their heart of hearts most leftwingers would ban it if they got the chance
The Rich and Aspirational Elitists buying their children life chances through our fee paying Public Schools is just fucking unjustifiable..unforgiveable, shameful and just fucking depressing....
Until this changes, sadly nothing changes....so, a good start with VAT
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
The vehement suggestion that education isn't a public good because 'they're posh innit' isn't exactly a shining example of the promise of state education...
Does your case rest on the idea that your opponents would suggest for one moment that education isn't a public good?
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
It is more a subsidy for cheap private schools and bursaries for less well off private school pupils, not the super rich
I agree. It is why I chose the word "wealthy". Most of my friends who send their kids into the private sector are wealthy, but not what I'd call rich. (i.e. substantial combined income, but not asset rich).
Thats an interesting use of the words.
I'd say wealth implied more generational capacity. Rich is more new money....
My folks are neither. Through their hard work, and sacrifices, to pay for my higher quality prep education they've actually given me social mobility.
By Nancy Mitford’s rules, ‘wealthy’ is decidedly ‘non-U’. You’ve revealed *yourself* as new money.
Watching these great talents from the Golden Age of Pop Music (1955-2005, as agreed by PB) I get a sense of what it must have been like in Italy, watching Raphael, Michelangelo and Da Vinci (and Donatello and Botticelli and all the rest) drop off the perch
Standing in the piazza in Firenze you'd have said "Heh, no worries, we've got more on the way"... except they weren't on the way. That was it. The Renaissance. The High Renaissance, indeed
After 300 years of continual artistic improvement and endless new talent, suddenly there was a great falling off, and people started listening to rap and drill. Or buying Mannerist paintings by Parmigianino while pretending they were as good as Piero della Francesca
Rap was mainstream twenty years before the end of your golden age.
Rap was OK at the beginning (Grandmaster Flash) and interesting without ever being noble or profound, now it is dreck
Mannerism is actually a pretty good analogy
I saw a chart that suggested that the number of key changes in top 10 hits basically collapsed circa 2005 and never recovered.
Some possible statistical evidence for your thesis, then.
I’m which case the analogy is not mannerism but perhaps “the international style” in architecture.
I've been researching this for a Knapper's Gazette article, and it is absolutely true. Music hasn't merely declined anecdotally, you can measure it. It has got less complex, with fewer key changes and more simplistic melodies, and lyrics have also got simpler, and also more crude and brutal (lyrical terms are more likely to be centred around hate and violence rather than love and joy, for instance)
It's a damn shame, but it is the case
We have gone from the exquisite cadences and human happiness of Aretha Franklin and Say A Little Prayer
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
It is more a subsidy for cheap private schools and bursaries for less well off private school pupils, not the super rich
I agree. It is why I chose the word "wealthy". Most of my friends who send their kids into the private sector are wealthy, but not what I'd call rich. (i.e. substantial combined income, but not asset rich).
Thats an interesting use of the words.
I'd say wealth implied more generational capacity. Rich is more new money....
My folks are neither. Through their hard work, and sacrifices, to pay for my higher quality prep education they've actually given me social mobility. Ended up at an Oxford college (soz @DJ41), and set up a business that exports (helping BoP), employs, pays taxes and allows me a better life.
I have the disadvantage of a state education and Cambridge.
Watching these great talents from the Golden Age of Pop Music (1955-2005, as agreed by PB) I get a sense of what it must have been like in Italy, watching Raphael, Michelangelo and Da Vinci (and Donatello and Botticelli and all the rest) drop off the perch
Standing in the piazza in Firenze you'd have said "Heh, no worries, we've got more on the way"... except they weren't on the way. That was it. The Renaissance. The High Renaissance, indeed
After 300 years of continual artistic improvement and endless new talent, suddenly there was a great falling off, and people started listening to rap and drill. Or buying Mannerist paintings by Parmigianino while pretending they were as good as Piero della Francesca
Rap was mainstream twenty years before the end of your golden age.
Rap was OK at the beginning (Grandmaster Flash) and interesting without ever being noble or profound, now it is dreck
Mannerism is actually a pretty good analogy
Rap reached its peak in a little-known post-modernist performance in 2016. Those who were there were there, everyone else will just have to try to imagine it from this briefest of clips (at 1'33")
When I saw the vote was 371-16, I assumed the 16 were all colleagues from John Nicolson’s own party. That’s true, they were, but that’s only a third of the parliamentary SNP. Two-thirds of his party colleagues abstained. Shows how, er, well-loved he must be.
No to VAT on charitable enterprises. Which covers most private schools.
Having said that charitable private schools might need their own code which forces them to be provide more info on their charitable activities (typically bursaries).
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
It is more a subsidy for cheap private schools and bursaries for less well off private school pupils, not the super rich
I agree. It is why I chose the word "wealthy". Most of my friends who send their kids into the private sector are wealthy, but not what I'd call rich. (i.e. substantial combined income, but not asset rich).
Thats an interesting use of the words.
I'd say wealth implied more generational capacity. Rich is more new money....
My folks are neither. Through their hard work, and sacrifices, to pay for my higher quality prep education they've actually given me social mobility. Ended up at an Oxford college (soz @DJ41), and set up a business that exports (helping BoP), employs, pays taxes and allows me a better life.
I have the disadvantage of a state education and Cambridge.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
I've got nothing against private education and setting up viable businesses to supply the considerable demand for it. I just don't understand why those businesses should get a subsidy? Surely market forces should prevail?
Do you think plane travel, train travel, bus travel and private health procedures should also incur 20% VAT?
Plane travel and private health procedures, on balance, yes.
Bus and train travel, no - they really are a public good (and there is no state provision)
The private health care would be different if there was no public provision. But that's a different argument.
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
It is more a subsidy for cheap private schools and bursaries for less well off private school pupils, not the super rich
I agree. It is why I chose the word "wealthy". Most of my friends who send their kids into the private sector are wealthy, but not what I'd call rich. (i.e. substantial combined income, but not asset rich).
Thats an interesting use of the words.
I'd say wealth implied more generational capacity. Rich is more new money....
My folks are neither. Through their hard work, and sacrifices, to pay for my higher quality prep education they've actually given me social mobility.
By Nancy Mitford’s rules, ‘wealthy’ is decidedly ‘non-U’. You’ve revealed *yourself* as new money.
Oh entirely. My folks didn't have much dosh at all. What they had, they dedicated to my education. I'm incredibly grateful for it.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
Please enlighten me as to how my parents had that choice when it came to my education.
Not everyone can afford to shop at Harrods and Fortnum and Mason either, doesn't mean we shut them down or nationalise them.
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
So in their heart of hearts most leftwingers would ban it if they got the chance
The Rich and Aspirational Elitists buying their children life chances through our fee paying Public Schools is just fucking unjustifiable..unforgiveable, shameful and just fucking depressing....
Until this changes, sadly nothing changes....so, a good start with VAT
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
It is more a subsidy for cheap private schools and bursaries for less well off private school pupils, not the super rich
I agree. It is why I chose the word "wealthy". Most of my friends who send their kids into the private sector are wealthy, but not what I'd call rich. (i.e. substantial combined income, but not asset rich).
Thats an interesting use of the words.
I'd say wealth implied more generational capacity. Rich is more new money....
My folks are neither. Through their hard work, and sacrifices, to pay for my higher quality prep education they've actually given me social mobility. Ended up at an Oxford college (soz @DJ41), and set up a business that exports (helping BoP), employs, pays taxes and allows me a better life.
I have the disadvantage of a state education and Cambridge.
At least neither of us went to Hull, eh?
That made me inhale my Lemsip. (It's a raucous night at Mwadams Towers.)
The suggestion that taking away a state subsidy for the wealthy is somehow anti-aspirational is one of the more interesting arguments for a middle class perk I've heard tonight.
By taking their kids out of the state education system and paying for their education while still paying taxes, "the wealthy" are actually subsidising the state education system - in effect, paying twice.
I've got nothing against private education and setting up viable businesses to supply the considerable demand for it. I just don't understand why those businesses should get a subsidy? Surely market forces should prevail?
Do you think plane travel, train travel, bus travel and private health procedures should also incur 20% VAT?
Plane travel and private health procedures, on balance, yes.
Bus and train travel, no - they really are a public good (and there is no state provision)
The private health care would be different if there was no public provision. But that's a different argument.
Plane travel already has its own unique tax.
But, unlike other forms of transport, its fuel is untaxed.
The failure to agree on a global tax on aviation fuel is a pretty clear sign that international negotiations on reducing carbon dioxide emissions to reduce global warming have achieved little in three decades.
Comments
Please add me to yours.
SKS's office is probably taking a lot of calls from survivors of those places who want to urge him - and help him - to go further.
The defenders of the existence of such places aren't used to having light shone on what they consider to be their personal affairs, or what they have assumed all their lives that they are "entitled" to. Every year there is a large quantity of filth swept under the carpet...
RIP.
One of the last times they (Stevie, Lindsey, Christine, Mick) all played together I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF1R0hc5Q2I
Not everyone can afford to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean we ban Ferraris.
And if you had got a bursary you may have got a place, even Eton now offers full fee awards
https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/orwell-award/
Back to McVie, on paper she has a crap voice, ie West Midlands, and pretty much straight delivery. Yet real soul, somehow. Such a mystery.
But most folk don't have that "choice".
...to use their squash courts after work.
Dismantling the portrait sculpture of Russian poet Pushkin in Odesa
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1598066843696173057
Russian imperialist poet, alongside whom Kipling appears positively liberal.
The story is that the headmaster apologised to him - about half a century after he had left the school and after it had tried to stop his book coming out - and told him he wasn't banned any more ... as if after he'd left he'd ever wanted to visit them anyway. He then said he was prepared to visit to accept their apology in person, so long as they paid his fare. As far as I know, he hasn't actually visited yet. He should have insisted on keeping the original title, but presumably the publisher wanted to avoid giving people ideas and fuelling anyone's anger by making it more lucid. But perhaps he needs the money. Anyway it's a great book. (I've only read the original. The latest effort may possibly be different in other ways than just the title.)
Hey HYUFD, maybe someone will soon write "Chav-Faced Full-Fee Award Recipient at Charterhouse"?
https://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/exeterlanguageandculture/2020/10/15/aleksandr-pushkins-black-history/
I wouldn't have minded a crack at real tennis.
One day three years ago I was having a pint in my local and got chatting to the Chaplain at the school. Being an educationalist myself, we chatted about the school's place in the local community and its links with state schools. I pointed out that it was largely invisible, and made some suggestions as to how that could be changed. He listened politely, but nothing happened. I also wrote to the Headteacher on the same matter, but he didn't have the courtesy to reply. Anecdotal, I know, but I'm not persuaded that private schools, on the whole, benefit either the local community or the state sector.
Some now also sponsor academies, as my old school does with a Medway academy
A lot of sound and fury, passions roused, but little ultimately changed.
So they aren't adding anything to the community.
Nor do they provide "choice".
My school is so underfunded it is positively dangerous.
Uppingham School is crazily posh and traditional with boarding more or less mandatory, as are Saturday sports. They do good summer schools in Art, Music and Drama which my boys did some summers.
Their School ethos is rather positive and rounded and unlike other nearby private schools, the kids and teachers are rarely arseholes.
On the other hand, what a talent. The Golden Age closes.....
My old prep school had one of the few swimming pools in the area - it was always booked out for parties, local groups, etc. We were pretty much forced to do charitable volunteering of one sort or another.
This seems to be the norm - Northern Al's more the exception.
Standing in the piazza in Firenze you'd have said "Heh, no worries, we've got more on the way"... except they weren't on the way. That was it. The Renaissance. The High Renaissance, indeed
After 300 years of continual artistic improvement and endless new talent, suddenly there was a great falling off, and people started listening to rap and drill. Or buying Mannerist paintings by Parmigianino while pretending they were as good as Piero della Francesca
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/artists/christine-mcvie-brought-sweetness-optimism-fleetwood-mac/
Mannerism is actually a pretty good analogy
Until this changes, sadly nothing changes....so, a good start with VAT
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return
But yeah, rap ‘was OK’.
Some possible statistical evidence for your thesis, then.
I’m which case the analogy is not mannerism but perhaps “the international style” in architecture.
https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1598014468172152841
The EU has warned Elon Musk that Twitter could be banned in Europe unless the billionaire abides by its strict rules on content moderation
I'd say wealth implied more generational capacity. Rich is more new money....
My folks are neither. Through their hard work, and sacrifices, to pay for my higher quality prep education they've actually given me social mobility. Ended up at an Oxford college (soz @DJ41), and set up a business that exports (helping BoP), employs, pays taxes and allows me a better life.
Yes for air travel (stupid subsidy for a polluting form of transit).
Zero rate bus and train to encourage their use over other modes.
Bus and train travel, no - they really are a public good (and there is no state provision)
The private health care would be different if there was no public provision. But that's a different argument.
Why is it so important to folk? I don't give a toss cos I don't use it.
Maybe like private education?
It's a damn shame, but it is the case
We have gone from the exquisite cadences and human happiness of Aretha Franklin and Say A Little Prayer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8y0onSG3kg
to this utter fucking shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC8NmE3H-zs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXOQabEVP9s&ab_channel=MayfieldFestival
https://twitter.com/simonjedge/status/1597985409732337664
Which covers most private schools.
Having said that charitable private schools might need their own code which forces them to be provide more info on their charitable activities (typically bursaries).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB9Y2LHIT24
The unprecedented experiment explores the possibility that space-time somehow emerges from quantum information, even as the work’s interpretation remains disputed.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicists-create-a-wormhole-using-a-quantum-computer-20221130/
The failure to agree on a global tax on aviation fuel is a pretty clear sign that international negotiations on reducing carbon dioxide emissions to reduce global warming have achieved little in three decades.