I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Just compiling a list of PBers likely to make a half arsed defence of Lady brazen old racist Hussey. Petronellas I'll call them.
Not excusing Lady Hussey's behaviour but she is over 83 so would have remembered when Windrush first arrived. That may have been a question typical of her generation then even if unacceptable now.
My late grandmother was Sir Marmaduke Hussey's secretary for a time
It's actually quite an interesting question whether there is a widely acceptable form of words to ask someone from an ethnic minority what place their ancestors came from.
It's not a matter of a form of words. It's a matter of being a racist c*** who won't accept that a black British person is just as British as a white British person.
I've asked black British people who speak with West Indian accents which island their roots are in and I've never had a problem. This is because I am not a racist c***. It's not the most important thing for me about a person, but if you've been chatting for a while it's fine to ask. What Susan Hussey did was keep asking a British woman where she "really came from", after the person told her she was British. Only racist c***s do that. For racist c***s, a person's skin colour is the most important thing about them. If they person is white and not in the ruling class, often a foreign surname if they've got one is also considered of great importance.
I’m 59, but the memory of my public school education still brings makes me shudder. I was homesick, bullied and the quality of education was no better than I’d have got a decent comp, where I’d have been much happier. It was only in my mid-twenties that I really started to learn the stuff that I now find worthwhile.
It took me a long time to forgive my parents for the experience (I have now), but just because you went to a public school does not mean that you support them as an institution.
My Tory-voting father felt the same about Winchester - loathed it and would have welcomed its closure. Mostly as he disliked boarding, I think.
Yes, boarding was the problem. I have never felt so miserable as I did those first nights at school, aged 10.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
When it consists of selling privilege to the world's wealthy, it's increasingly tricky to hold that view.
I have a freiend who went to a "public school" in the 1970s and who sent his children to the same school a generatiojn later. It's changed massively from catering [edit] for children of the region's professionals (doctors, accountants, small factory owners,. etc.) to catering for the world's wealthy. The shift from O and A levels to Int Bac is a very telling indicator.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Suppression of free speech and protestors? What's not to like?
I've been asked "Where are you from?" when I was in a pub in Liverpool, "Rainhill," I said, an L35 postcode.
"No," he said (I'd never seen him before). "Where are you really from?"
It was curiosity only - Scousers are like that.
Yeah, like people in the West of Scotland are fascinated with your educational background. "And which school did you go to?"
Regarding the “which school did you go to?” question, and referring back to the previous thread, I spent my childhood in the south of England, where I went to a primary school with a maximum class size of 45. I had no problems with class sizes. I then went to a grammar school, where I was bullied to the extent that I hated school and didn’t build up enough confidence to take an OU degree until I was in my forties. Grammar schools aren’t the wonderful places that HYFUD tells us they are. I only started to recover when I moved to Scotland and was made to feel at home.
There can be bullying in any school but in grammar schools at least those most reluctant to learn and most likely to disrupt are generally excluded
No. Grammar schools are more likely to deny it happens and cover it up, because of their “reputation “. Speaking from bitter experience.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
'Charitable: relating to the assistance of those in need.'
Are you in need Mortimer? Do your children risk going without if the state no longer subsidises their education?
The last thread was bad enough, dominated by this issue. My own view on the politics of it is that Rishi's a bit posh but so was Boris and so was Cameron and everyone knew it, so I'm not convinced this is the election winner Labour thinks it is.
I'm not sure that the perception of Sunak as a privileged oik had really sunk in yet, but I don't think that that is Starmer's main motivation for the policy.
The main electoral benefit to Labour is fiscal. It basically allows Labour to invest £1.7bn to turn around state education, without anyone being able to easily question where the money is coming from. And if the Conservatives do try to challenge the fiscal arithmetic, it'll just be another opportunity for Labour to dismiss their claims and bang on about what they think is going to be a highly popular policy.
There's also an internal niche benefit to Starmer. In any world of rational behaviour, it would totally silence his far left critics, those who seem obsessed with discrediting Starmer and who seem much less concerned to win the next GE. Well it won't silence them, but they'll just end up looking like the utter factional marginalised numpties that they are.
I doubt it will raise any money for the exchequer.
Each private school parent is effectively donating their place - and the funding that goes with it - to someone else, and paying private on top.
The state makes a net loss on each parent who decides to quit. And a 20% increase in costs, and closures of dozens of marginal independent schools, will certainly lead to a lot moving - as well as less employment for teachers as well.
It will make private education more elite, not less.
It doesn't matter if kids suffer, Labour will have hit the "rich".
It's a good reminder that any party can pursue stupid policies, just for the optics.
I don't know if you saw my earlier analysis, which suggested that it was unlikely that the policy would be revenue negative. So it doesn't seem like a stupid policy. Also, going to a state school doesn't equate to suffering.
I did and I thought your calculations were simplistic.
Many smaller marginal schools will close entirely - so the loss to the exchequer will be larger- and other schools will have to raise their fees by even more to cover the reduction in the pupil roll.
We'll get a smaller, more expensive, more elite private school sector that's more reliant on international students.
There will be no extra revenue and no improvement to the state sector.
And thousands of extra kids that need spaces at local schools. It will be an increase in the cost base for the state with a tiny increase in revenue. It's laughable to think that £1.7bn could be raised from this.
Back of the envelope suggests it would be small revenue positive for the government.
There are c. 570k pupils in private education in the UK. If we estimate average school fees of £17,500 per year, it means total revenues for the sector are around £10bn.
If we assume that the sector will shrink by 20%, then we're talking £1.4-1.5bn of VAT revenue, less the costs of educating c. 100k in the State sector.
100k * £6,000/year is £600m of additional costs.
So, we're talking about a net gain for the government of maybe £800m.
Of course, it all depends on what price elasticity of demand is.
No because the extra 100k kids will need classrooms to sit in which means investment to build them and the attrition rate will be higher than that. It also completely pushes the last vestiges of working class kids like me out of a grammar school education because those middle class parents will funnel their cash into nearby houses and private tutors to get their kids into the local grammar. But fuck this kids too, I guess, their life chances don't matter because Labour need to hurt "rich" people.
These kinds of policies just push me further into the "it's time to go" camp, something I fought off last year when my wife wanted to go. The nation is simply become anti-aspiration and personal achievement is sneered at by a large section of society as selfish.
I'm not arguing with you regarding whether it is a sensible or well thought out policy, I am merely running the numbers.
I think the point @MaxPB is making is that you can't just run a raw calc on pupil numbers because of the knock on effects to the viability of smaller private schools and the required expansion of infrastructure provision at state schools.
Yes and the second order effects will be a disaster for social mobility as even more of the middle classes and high five figure earners put their kids into the best state schools by way of buying into catchment areas and tutoring for grammar schools leaving high potential kids from poorer families shit out of luck, stuck in schools where achievement is resented and those who achieve are bullied by those who resent them.
I'm all for more money being piled into the state education system, but no one wants to answer where the money comes from. The education budget needs to be doubled for it to really make a difference for kids and get top quality teachers into the sector, yet the Tory and Labour parties have made a choice that funding old people is a bigger priority than families and kids. Now Labour are attempting to shit on kids and families as much as they can without spelling out where these additional state school spaces come from.
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
With migrant labourers being literally about 90% of the population.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Outrageous sentiment to express. Utterly abominable.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
On the "should private schools be allowed to be charities?" issue,
1. It's difficult to see a workable basis for the defence
"That's just class war", "You're just jealous", "Our enrichment always trickles down to you proles", and "We serve the nation" - none of these exactly cut it. They don't like it up 'em! Perhaps they will do something like set up a commission of inquiry under somebody who went to a state school, says "Gorblimey, mate" every few sentences, blows his nose on his sleeve, and whose parents were both sh*t shovellers for tuppence three farthings a week, but will that help them much? You know what they say about fooling all the people all of the time.
2. There's a rich fund of facts for the offence to dip into
These include
• a) fee-fixing, • b) sexual abuse cases (such as by John Smyth at Winchester), • c) cases of various crimes including murder committed by males who went through the private boarding school system (e.g. Rurik Jutting at Winchester), • d) exam cheating, • e) videos of "chav hunts" etc. and other stuff that can be released at opportune moments.
Imagine a public schoolboy - not an ex-pupil but a lad who is still at one of these schools - who wants to bring down the system. Who's he going to call? Well it won't be the Sun. It will be Keir Starmer's office now!
3. Removing charity status doesn't mean as much to the schools as people think, but it does mean a lot to ruling class parents because it puts 20% VAT on the fees
And that's a humiliation they think is a major step on the way to "communism". Say hello to rule by a Russian Pinko Woke Corbyn Council Trash alliance - the usual "bolshies", troublemakers, and traitors.
If the Tory party is to back down, it will do it quickly. But somehow I don't see this happening - not without tax cuts elsewhere for the rich. (Got to see the funny side here.)
4. It's a bit late for Labour to go back to noticing the private schools as it did up until the early 1970s
- not that it ever actually did anything about those wretched institutions, but at least it noticed them. So it's a good thing it's noticing them once again.
5. The Tories may make "improving" state schools (har har!) a big thing.
Sounds crazy because obviously they don't give a f*ck, but it could happen. They could even play the "call it a pandemic of abuse against girl pupils" card, which issue was curiously stomped on earlier this year.
Bloody hell about jutting, but I don't think you can blame his school for his subsequent career. Real life American psycho.
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Becaus\e the people mostly in charge don't hav e a personal commitment. They don't send their children there, on the whole.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Outrageous sentiment to express. Utterly abominable.
*Fewer* woke bookshops, please.
I apologise. I should have aspired to wealthier parents.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
With migrant labourers being literally about 90% of the population.
If anybody armed them, they could control a huge chunk of the world's LNG.....
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Outrageous sentiment to express. Utterly abominable.
*Fewer* woke bookshops, please.
I apologise. I should have aspired to wealthier parents.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Outrageous sentiment to express. Utterly abominable.
*Fewer* woke bookshops, please.
I apologise. I should have aspired to wealthier parents.
I did have to go back and insert quotation marks to eliminate an unfortunate ambiguity ...
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Becaus\e the people mostly in charge don't hav e a personal commitment. They don't send their children there, on the whole.
It would be interesting to see if that is true: what proportion of national and local politicians, plus bureaucrats at the DfE, send their kids to private schools.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Fewer*
What if the intended meaning is bookshops that are less woke? Cf. less revealing dresses.
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Did you actually read my comment? By any measure state schools can equal or better any private school. The point is what private schools give people beyond education and quals - connections and positive prejudice.
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Becaus\e the people mostly in charge don't hav e a personal commitment. They don't send their children there, on the whole.
It would be interesting to see if that is true: what proportion of national and local politicians, plus bureaucrats at the DfE, send their kids to private schools.
It does correlate with personal wealth, on a common sense basis, anyway. And also depends on what you mean by 'in charge' - also, senior execs in media companies, private firms, other organizations, and so on who are major donors to politiucal parties.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Given people are sharing public school stories, here goes.
I do get the sense that my school was quite different in the 90s to what it would have been like in the 70s. No more corporal punishment, women teachers, the children's act and this was of course the era of Princess Di. Did I thrive there? No but would I have done better at a comprehensive? I'm not sure I would have. I could have worked harder but I did think most of the teachers were very good, interested in their subject and decent as people. They weren't just obsessed with exam grades and teaching to the test. I was speaking to a friend who attended a poor state school and he was astonished that my school had teachers who were Oxbridge graduates and Phds.
I would also make a point about racial/cultural diversity. It introduced me to people from different parts of the world and even among the English pupils it was quite racially diverse. In our boarding house we had a lad from eastern Europe who came over for sixth form though he ended up leaving rather abruptly. We later found out it was because his businessman father had been assassinated in his home country. If I have a criticism of the media critics it's that their idea of some of these schools is rather out of date.
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Becaus\e the people mostly in charge don't hav e a personal commitment. They don't send their children there, on the whole.
It would be interesting to see if that is true: what proportion of national and local politicians, plus bureaucrats at the DfE, send their kids to private schools.
It does correlate with personal wealth, on a common sense basis, anyway. And also depends on what you mean by 'in charge' - also, senior execs in media companies, private firms, other organizations, and so on who are major donors to politiucal parties.
What proportion of Labour politicians send their kids to private schools?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
When it consists of selling privilege to the world's wealthy, it's increasingly tricky to hold that view.
I have a freiend who went to a "public school" in the 1970s and who sent his children to the same school a generatiojn later. It's changed massively from catering [edit] for children of the region's professionals (doctors, accountants, small factory owners,. etc.) to catering for the world's wealthy. The shift from O and A levels to Int Bac is a very telling indicator.
Which is why The Mail (by and for people who are still living in the 1970s/80s) has taken the stance it has. In Mailland, educating your children privately is a plausible aspiration. It may not happen, but it's not crazy to think it might.
In the here and now, it's the preoccupation of a minority of a minority. And there are lots of reasons for that, but one of them is business decisions taken by independent schools. Another is that any spare cash in this country ends up being hoovered up by house price inflation, but that's another matter.
Prediction: the polling on this issue will show the same generational cleavage as every other issue. Grandparents furious at the thought that their grandchildren won't be able to go private, parents rolling their eyes because that ship sailed long long ago.
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Did you actually read my comment? By any measure state schools can equal or better any private school. The point is what private schools give people beyond education and quals - connections and positive prejudice.
Did you read mine?
1) I didn't say qualifications. Education is a holistic experience. More State schools need to work harder with fostering connections, perhaps. My state grammar managed it. We had longer hours. Weekend and evening sport. Links with local private schools (yep - take that tankies).
2) The average private school is still better than the average state; that the is the problem that the left should try and solve. They'd rather tear down the edifice for a cheap hit though. As @MaxPB , @Casino_Royale and me, three of the younger private sector members of this community, have all mooted moving to other jurisdictions, that might prove rather costly.....
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
I can't remember the last time I used the state health system. Oh, actually, yes, it was when I was A&E being given a drug I told them I was allergic to.
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Did you actually read my comment? By any measure state schools can equal or better any private school. The point is what private schools give people beyond education and quals - connections and positive prejudice.
Did you read mine?
1) I didn't say qualifications. Education is a holistic experience. More State schools need to work harder with fostering connections, perhaps. My state grammar managed it. We had longer hours. Weekend and evening sport. Links with local private schools (yep - take that tankies).
2) The average private school is still better than the average state; that the is the problem that the left should try and solve. They'd rather tear down the edifice for a cheap hit though. As @MaxPB , @Casino_Royale and me, three of the younger private sector members of this community, have all mooted moving to other jurisdictions, that might prove rather costly.....
That’s terrible! Don’t you realise your only function in life is to support us old fogies?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
I've been asked "Where are you from?" when I was in a pub in Liverpool, "Rainhill," I said, an L35 postcode.
"No," he said (I'd never seen him before). "Where are you really from?"
It was curiosity only - Scousers are like that.
Yeah, like people in the West of Scotland are fascinated with your educational background. "And which school did you go to?"
Regarding the “which school did you go to?” question, and referring back to the previous thread, I spent my childhood in the south of England, where I went to a primary school with a maximum class size of 45. I had no problems with class sizes. I then went to a grammar school, where I was bullied to the extent that I hated school and didn’t build up enough confidence to take an OU degree until I was in my forties. Grammar schools aren’t the wonderful places that HYFUD tells us they are. I only started to recover when I moved to Scotland and was made to feel at home.
There can be bullying in any school but in grammar schools at least those most reluctant to learn and most likely to disrupt are generally excluded
No. Grammar schools are more likely to deny it happens and cover it up, because of their “reputation “. Speaking from bitter experience.
Not in my experience, my sister had an excellent time at her grammar school and did very well.
I also know people who went to comprehensives who had lessons constantly disrupted by a minority who did not want to learn
Looking at the state of this thread, you’d think Labour were banning private schools.
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
So, not Brexit Britain then, with its policy of redistribution by "levelling up"?
I didn't really. If Mexico had scored again at the end there they'd have overtaken Poland. Mexico needed to score once with or without that Saudi goal.
Looking at the state of this thread, you’d think Labour were banning private schools.
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
The mask has slipped - its an important moment.
If we had a decent Tory leader and Chancellor we might make progress in the polls off the back of this misfire.
Looking at the state of this thread, you’d think Labour were banning private schools.
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
Thus reducing the number of scholarships and bursaries they provide and closing some cheaper private schools making them even more restricted to the rich, same as with Labour's scrapping of assisted places in 1997
It's sometimes good to have a privately educated postie
The other day I had a signature delivery at a house on my round called Ulmus. I told the owner that his house name had encouraged me to possibly do my first graffito since on desks at school, and write "ULMI" (with chalk) under the other house name on my route, "Elm Trees"
I added that making the effort to do graffiti in the traditional Latin should make it have exemptions to the usual criticism. He laughed quite a bit
He now seems to think I'm a real hoot and has come to the door every time I've put a letter through his door since. I hope he doesn't want much more Latin humour
Looking at the state of this thread, you’d think Labour were banning private schools.
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
The mask has slipped - its an important moment.
If we had a decent Tory leader and Chancellor we might make progress in the polls off the back of this misfire.
So, not one like the Johnson government with its explicit programme of levelling up?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
So, not Brexit Britain then, with its policy of redistribution by "levelling up"?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
Looking at the state of this thread, you’d think Labour were banning private schools.
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
An interesting question would be: if VAT were currently charged on private education, would anyone be arguing to remove it? I doubt it.
I didn't really. If Mexico had scored again at the end there they'd have overtaken Poland. Mexico needed to score once with or without that Saudi goal.
Absolutely. Which completed passed the BBC presenters by. Poor show. I also got the feeling the Mexican players weren’t aware of that either!
So many people owe the Duke and Duchess of Sussex an apology.
This was not a member of the royal family but a very elderly lady in waiting who made an error but said a question many of her generation would have asked.
The Palace correctly asked her to retire
Recollections may vary.
She’s 83…
https://twitter.com/mikeg24764/status/1598032200934772736 Born in 1939, recruited to Royal Fam in 1960, age 21. She was 17 during the Montgomery Bus Boycott, 29 when MLK was assassinated, 40 when Blair Peach was murdered, 54 when Stephen Lawrence was murdered. Spent her life close to the centres of power. Could read.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
What rot. My mother was born on a council estate in one of the poorest parts of Wales.
She was thrilled that through hard work (they set up a business) they could afford to send me to a school that was better than the local state ones.
Looking at the state of this thread, you’d think Labour were banning private schools.
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
The mask has slipped - its an important moment.
If we had a decent Tory leader and Chancellor we might make progress in the polls off the back of this misfire.
Why exactly is it “an important moment”? As I said upthread the fact they have a tax break is frankly ridiculous. There are bigger issues to worry about though and I’m not sure it will make much difference either way.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Did you actually read my comment? By any measure state schools can equal or better any private school. The point is what private schools give people beyond education and quals - connections and positive prejudice.
Did you read mine?
1) I didn't say qualifications. Education is a holistic experience. More State schools need to work harder with fostering connections, perhaps. My state grammar managed it. We had longer hours. Weekend and evening sport. Links with local private schools (yep - take that tankies).
2) The average private school is still better than the average state; that the is the problem that the left should try and solve. They'd rather tear down the edifice for a cheap hit though. As @MaxPB , @Casino_Royale and me, three of the younger private sector members of this community, have all mooted moving to other jurisdictions, that might prove rather costly.....
That’s terrible! Don’t you realise your only function in life is to support us old fogies?
I've been asked "Where are you from?" when I was in a pub in Liverpool, "Rainhill," I said, an L35 postcode.
"No," he said (I'd never seen him before). "Where are you really from?"
It was curiosity only - Scousers are like that.
Yeah, like people in the West of Scotland are fascinated with your educational background. "And which school did you go to?"
Regarding the “which school did you go to?” question, and referring back to the previous thread, I spent my childhood in the south of England, where I went to a primary school with a maximum class size of 45. I had no problems with class sizes. I then went to a grammar school, where I was bullied to the extent that I hated school and didn’t build up enough confidence to take an OU degree until I was in my forties. Grammar schools aren’t the wonderful places that HYFUD tells us they are. I only started to recover when I moved to Scotland and was made to feel at home.
There can be bullying in any school but in grammar schools at least those most reluctant to learn and most likely to disrupt are generally excluded
No. Grammar schools are more likely to deny it happens and cover it up, because of their “reputation “. Speaking from bitter experience.
Not in my experience, my sister had an excellent time at her grammar school and did very well.
I also know people who went to comprehensives who had lessons constantly disrupted by a minority who did not want to learn
My experience of grammar school (n=1) was that there wasn’t a lot of bullying or bad behaviour and most of the kids did want to be there and learn. My sister went to the local comp and was comprehensively failed by some of the teaching. But again, n=1. In an ideal world all schools would be great, but we are along way from an ideal world.
Looking at the state of this thread, you’d think Labour were banning private schools.
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
The mask has slipped - its an important moment.
If we had a decent Tory leader and Chancellor we might make progress in the polls off the back of this misfire.
Why exactly is it “an important moment”? As I said upthread the fact they have a tax break is frankly ridiculous. There are bigger issues to worry about though and I’m not sure it will make much difference either way.
Well for a start, all the tankie class-warfare cranks on here have shown their true colours when debating the issue...
Looking at the state of this thread, you’d think Labour were banning private schools.
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
Yes, I think this is right. However where private schools are with VAT exemption may be the wedge for other things such as Unis.
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Becaus\e the people mostly in charge don't hav e a personal commitment. They don't send their children there, on the whole.
It would be interesting to see if that is true: what proportion of national and local politicians, plus bureaucrats at the DfE, send their kids to private schools.
It does correlate with personal wealth, on a common sense basis, anyway. And also depends on what you mean by 'in charge' - also, senior execs in media companies, private firms, other organizations, and so on who are major donors to politiucal parties.
What proportion of Labour politicians send their kids to private schools?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
On topic, I think this is quite clever politics - a wedge issue (like fox hunting) that has a tiny real life impact but says a lot about your general principles.
It’s a touch risky, as in some seats they need to woo folk who might consider private schooling - but to the red wall it says ‘we’re with you’. But it’s good to see Labour actually showing points of difference.
It’s not about aspiration - it’s about fairness.
Ho ho ho. Brave call Minister.
The statement it makes is - 'We don't like success, so we're gonna keep taxing it more and more- then we can all be mediocre and the country can go to the dogs'.
Yeh but it’s not though. The best state schools absolutely hold their own vs the best private schools on attainment. It’s about preservation of privilege down generations. Which is really the opposite of aspiration.
Here is a thought. Instead of trying to tear down the edifice because class reasons, and envy, why don't the left dedicate all their efforts to making state schools better than private schools?
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
Did you actually read my comment? By any measure state schools can equal or better any private school. The point is what private schools give people beyond education and quals - connections and positive prejudice.
Did you read mine?
1) I didn't say qualifications. Education is a holistic experience. More State schools need to work harder with fostering connections, perhaps. My state grammar managed it. We had longer hours. Weekend and evening sport. Links with local private schools (yep - take that tankies).
2) The average private school is still better than the average state; that the is the problem that the left should try and solve. They'd rather tear down the edifice for a cheap hit though. As @MaxPB , @Casino_Royale and me, three of the younger private sector members of this community, have all mooted moving to other jurisdictions, that might prove rather costly.....
That’s terrible! Don’t you realise your only function in life is to support us old fogies?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Do you want to remove VAT exemption on bus travel, train travel, flights and taxis too?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Quite. A lot of people are up in arms about what they think the left would like to do, and pretending that is the same thing as a rather technical measure about VAT.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
When it consists of selling privilege to the world's wealthy, it's increasingly tricky to hold that view.
I have a freiend who went to a "public school" in the 1970s and who sent his children to the same school a generatiojn later. It's changed massively from catering [edit] for children of the region's professionals (doctors, accountants, small factory owners,. etc.) to catering for the world's wealthy. The shift from O and A levels to Int Bac is a very telling indicator.
Which is why The Mail (by and for people who are still living in the 1970s/80s) has taken the stance it has. In Mailland, educating your children privately is a plausible aspiration. It may not happen, but it's not crazy to think it might.
In the here and now, it's the preoccupation of a minority of a minority. And there are lots of reasons for that, but one of them is business decisions taken by independent schools. Another is that any spare cash in this country ends up being hoovered up by house price inflation, but that's another matter.
Prediction: the polling on this issue will show the same generational cleavage as every other issue. Grandparents furious at the thought that their grandchildren won't be able to go private, parents rolling their eyes because that ship sailed long long ago.
That would make sense - in the 1970s from what friends tell me, it was often grandparents or unmarried uncles/aunts who helped fund the next but one generation's private education.
I'm also now wondering to what extent a "public school" can be considered a self-perpetuating oligarchy whose main aim is its own survival. The sort of criticism made on here so often of, for instance, trade unions, or certain charities, seems to suit the public school rather better if anything.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
As it likely leads to many smaller, cheaper private schools shutting down and reduces bursaries available.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Outrageous sentiment to express. Utterly abominable.
'*Fewer* woke bookshops', please.
Hang on: if he wanted bookshops - on average - to be less woke, than it would be perfectly correct.
Indeed, I would argue that as woke is a continuum not a boolean, and we might want every bookshop to move a little to the left, then less is clearly the correct usage.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Do you want to remove VAT exemption on bus travel, train travel, flights and taxis too?
No, I'll be happy to focus on the one that only benefits the top 7%.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Quite. A lot of people are up in arms about what they think the left would like to do, and pretending that is the same thing as a rather technical measure about VAT.
It is all part of the same leftwing ideological crusade
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Do you want to remove VAT exemption on bus travel, train travel, flights and taxis too?
No, I'll be happy to focus on the one that only benefits the top 7%.
So it really is about soaking the rich? And stuff the scholarship kids eh?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Quite. A lot of people are up in arms about what they think the left would like to do, and pretending that is the same thing as a rather technical measure about VAT.
It is all part of the same leftwing ideological crusade
Private schools hardcode inequality in society. They facilitate a higher per pupil spend on the already advantaged. They are the mechanism by which the wealthy purchase educational privilege for their offspring. They provide a false yardstick with which to beat the state sector. They foster snobbery and entitlement. Anybody who suppports them cares little for equality of opportunity because they are incompatible with equality of opportunity. Charities my arse, and removing their tax breaks is the absolute bare minimum Labour should be proposing.
Looking at the state of this thread, you’d think Labour were banning private schools.
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
The mask has slipped - its an important moment.
If we had a decent Tory leader and Chancellor we might make progress in the polls off the back of this misfire.
You really wouldn't. Only 10% max of the population would be disadvantaged (relatively!) by the removal of the VAT exemption. Most of the rest are probably baffled there's an exemption in the first place.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Quite. A lot of people are up in arms about what they think the left would like to do, and pretending that is the same thing as a rather technical measure about VAT.
It is all part of the same leftwing ideological crusade
And yet even if it were part of the same crusade, it is not the same action, and does not have the same effect. So being as outraged about a tax change as the potential end of private schooling just doesn't work.
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Quite. A lot of people are up in arms about what they think the left would like to do, and pretending that is the same thing as a rather technical measure about VAT.
It is all part of the same leftwing ideological crusade
And yet even if it were part of the same crusade, it is not the same action, and does not have the same effect. So being as outraged about a tax change as the potential end of private schooling just doesn't work.
You have to remember that going to a posh school and being posh is a major reason for mummy and daddy wanting to be left lots of property wealth without any inheritance tax.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Outrageous sentiment to express. Utterly abominable.
'*Fewer* woke bookshops', please.
Hang on: if he wanted bookshops - on average - to be less woke, than it would be perfectly correct.
Indeed, I would argue that as woke is a continuum not a boolean, and we might want every bookshop to move a little to the left, then less is clearly the correct usage.
When I wrote "move a little to the left", I meant - obviously - that we mean we want them to be be nearer 0 on the woke scale.
(In case anyone is wondering, the woke-ness of a person or institution is measured in Markles.)
Cant agree with that. If people have the money and want to spend it on schooling their kids, something the state does for free, let them. Same for healthcare. And driving rather than public transport.
Given people are sharing public school stories, here goes.
I do get the sense that my school was quite different in the 90s to what it would have been like in the 70s. No more corporal punishment, women teachers, the children's act and this was of course the era of Princess Di. Did I thrive there? No but would I have done better at a comprehensive? I'm not sure I would have. I could have worked harder but I did think most of the teachers were very good, interested in their subject and decent as people. They weren't just obsessed with exam grades and teaching to the test. I was speaking to a friend who attended a poor state school and he was astonished that my school had teachers who were Oxbridge graduates and Phds.
I would also make a point about racial/cultural diversity. It introduced me to people from different parts of the world and even among the English pupils it was quite racially diverse. In our boarding house we had a lad from eastern Europe who came over for sixth form though he ended up leaving rather abruptly. We later found out it was because his businessman father had been assassinated in his home country. If I have a criticism of the media critics it's that their idea of some of these schools is rather out of date.
Classroom experience at lower-division private schools may sometimes be similar in some ways to what it is at elite schools in the state sector, but living at school is enormously different from residing in the parental home and going to school each morning and returning home in the afternoon.
I've always rather liked the Channel Islands. Might have to move there permanently if proposals like this start to kick in as well as huge increases to my tax bill.
I'm actually half considering what I never thought I would and to move to the Middle East with my family for 10 years.
Qatar is lovely it seems, if you aren't gay or a migrant labourer.
Great football stadia, as well.
Less woke bookshops too.
Outrageous sentiment to express. Utterly abominable.
'*Fewer* woke bookshops', please.
Hang on: if he wanted bookshops - on average - to be less woke, than it would be perfectly correct.
Indeed, I would argue that as woke is a continuum not a boolean, and we might want every bookshop to move a little to the left, then less is clearly the correct usage.
When I wrote "move a little to the left", I meant - obviously - that we mean we want them to be be nearer 0 on the woke scale.
(In case anyone is wondering, the woke-ness of a person or institution is measured in Markles.)
Hang on - I'm confused now, you mean that our fellow PBer likes bookshops that are 10 on the woke scale? Don't you mean 11 on the Wokefinder scale?
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Quite. A lot of people are up in arms about what they think the left would like to do, and pretending that is the same thing as a rather technical measure about VAT.
It is all part of the same leftwing ideological crusade
And yet even if it were part of the same crusade, it is not the same action, and does not have the same effect. So being as outraged about a tax change as the potential end of private schooling just doesn't work.
You have to remember that going to a posh school and being posh is a major reason for mummy and daddy wanting to be left lots of property wealth without any inheritance tax.
The average home counties property would be hit by IHT under the pre Osborne threshold for married couples, let alone just those who went to private school
(To be fair to oldsters, not much generational profile. That might change if the Mail carries on being cross, but so far the opinions are pretty stable across age groups.)
One of the issues I find with this debate is those of us who have been privately educated explain all the public good that is done by private education:
- scholarships ** Education ** - outreach ** Education ** - donation of equipment/time/space to local state schools and other voluntary orgs ** Education/Community ** - building of facilities that can be used by community ** So, community ** - custodianship of historic buildings ** s/of/of their attractive brochure-worthy/ ** - freeing up spaces in state schools ** I guess ** - training of staff who may go into state sector ** Or might not **
And yet those who want to tear anything that isn't state provision down just ignore us.
Not ignore, very much wonder why it is VAT-free and charitable. Some vague maybe/maybe-not and CoE-esque 'look at our pretty buildings' isn't really cutting it for me. If we give VAT/tax breaks to everyone and everything that may or may not go on to work in the state sector or lives in a Victorian or Edwardian building then that would level the ground a little.
Education isn't a charitable endeavour these days?
God, the state of left wing thinking.
God, the state of right wing thinking.
Is that the level of debate and engagement your private education gifted us? It's no wonder you need charity.
So do you think education is a charitable endeavour, or not?
It is only charity if it goes to someone who otherwise couldn't get educated, otherwise it is a paid for service.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I think VAT on private medical services, with the money raised going to the NHS would be another good policy for Labour.
Christ, I'm definitely moving if they do that.
Where to?
Anywhere there aspiration is supported rather than scorned.
Aspiration my arse. Private education is all about protecting and perpetuating privileges down the generations.
No it is about choice which the left want to remove as far as possible, including nationalising most business and industry if they were allowed the chance
How does removing an anomalous VAT exemption restrict choice?
Quite. A lot of people are up in arms about what they think the left would like to do, and pretending that is the same thing as a rather technical measure about VAT.
It is all part of the same leftwing ideological crusade
And yet even if it were part of the same crusade, it is not the same action, and does not have the same effect. So being as outraged about a tax change as the potential end of private schooling just doesn't work.
You have to remember that going to a posh school and being posh is a major reason for mummy and daddy wanting to be left lots of property wealth without any inheritance tax.
The average home counties property would be hit by IHT under the pre Osborne threshold for married couples, let alone just those who went to private school
An interesting exchange recorded on John Redwood's site:
"Rt Hon Sir John Redwood MP (Wokingham) (Con): Over the last 48 hours, wind has generated as little as 1% of our electricity, and it was at 2% when I checked this morning, while of course most of the homes we represent use gas for heating. Will the Secretary of State confirm that we need to get on with issuing more production licences for domestic oil and gas, which cuts the carbon dioxide involved and will enable us to keep the lights on, which we cannot do when the wind does not blow?
Grant Shapps, Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy: My right hon. Friend is characteristically correct that we cannot always rely on a single form of electricity generation. As the French have found out, we cannot always rely on nuclear. I think France has 71 nuclear power stations in its fleet, but about half of them are down at the moment, so it cannot rely only on nuclear. I was discussing this very fact with my opposite number yesterday. I know that my right hon. Friend welcomes the £700 million development approval cash that we have put into the first new nuclear since the 1980s, and he is absolutely right that we need a broad spread of different energy forms to ensure that we can provide the cheap power we require at all times." https://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2022/11/30/my-intervention-at-the-ministerial-statement-on-energy-security/
In a debate about ENERGY SECURITY necessitated by a vast increase in the price of GAS, the turd in a wig cannot even bring himself to find a bland, meaningless warm word or two for the domestic oil and gas industry. Not one. This Government is determined to wreck the economy. Labour would be better.
Comments
Well, it may be about to claim the life of a baby boy in New Zealand.
Obsessed by “purebloods,” some who swallow the misinformation try to insist in “unvaccinated blood” for transfusions to avoid “tainted blood” (see here: https://mobile.twitter.com/GillianMcKeith/status/1597880677462151171 )
And now, in NZ, a family are refusing urgent life-saving surgery for their baby boy because they can’t provide specifically blood from unvaccinated people: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/30/new-zealand-parents-refuse-use-of-vaccinated-blood-in-life-saving-surgery-on-baby
I've asked black British people who speak with West Indian accents which island their roots are in and I've never had a problem. This is because I am not a racist c***. It's not the most important thing for me about a person, but if you've been chatting for a while it's fine to ask. What Susan Hussey did was keep asking a British woman where she "really came from", after the person told her she was British. Only racist c***s do that. For racist c***s, a person's skin colour is the most important thing about them. If they person is white and not in the ruling class, often a foreign surname if they've got one is also considered of great importance.
I went at seven
I have a freiend who went to a "public school" in the 1970s and who sent his children to the same school a generatiojn later. It's changed massively from catering [edit] for children of the region's professionals (doctors, accountants, small factory owners,. etc.) to catering for the world's wealthy. The shift from O and A levels to Int Bac is a very telling indicator.
Are you in need Mortimer? Do your children risk going without if the state no longer subsidises their education?
I'm all for more money being piled into the state education system, but no one wants to answer where the money comes from. The education budget needs to be doubled for it to really make a difference for kids and get top quality teachers into the sector, yet the Tory and Labour parties have made a choice that funding old people is a bigger priority than families and kids. Now Labour are attempting to shit on kids and families as much as they can without spelling out where these additional state school spaces come from.
Except the state can never manage it. Because command economies don't promote excellence in the way that market economies do.
'*Fewer* woke bookshops', please.
College man by the look of it.
And yet, as you said, private therapeutic care isn't VATable.
Physician, heal thy own sector before preaching about others.
I do get the sense that my school was quite different in the 90s to what it would have been like in the 70s. No more corporal punishment, women teachers, the children's act and this was of course the era of Princess Di. Did I thrive there? No but would I have done better at a comprehensive? I'm not sure I would have. I could have worked harder but I did think most of the teachers were very good, interested in their subject and decent as people. They weren't just obsessed with exam grades and teaching to the test. I was speaking to a friend who attended a poor state school and he was astonished that my school had teachers who were Oxbridge graduates and Phds.
I would also make a point about racial/cultural diversity. It introduced me to people from different parts of the world and even among the English pupils it was quite racially diverse. In our boarding house we had a lad from eastern Europe who came over for sixth form though he ended up leaving rather abruptly. We later found out it was because his businessman father had been assassinated in his home country. If I have a criticism of the media critics it's that their idea of some of these schools is rather out of date.
In the here and now, it's the preoccupation of a minority of a minority. And there are lots of reasons for that, but one of them is business decisions taken by independent schools. Another is that any spare cash in this country ends up being hoovered up by house price inflation, but that's another matter.
Prediction: the polling on this issue will show the same generational cleavage as every other issue. Grandparents furious at the thought that their grandchildren won't be able to go private, parents rolling their eyes because that ship sailed long long ago.
1) I didn't say qualifications. Education is a holistic experience. More State schools need to work harder with fostering connections, perhaps. My state grammar managed it. We had longer hours. Weekend and evening sport. Links with local private schools (yep - take that tankies).
2) The average private school is still better than the average state; that the is the problem that the left should try and solve. They'd rather tear down the edifice for a cheap hit though. As @MaxPB , @Casino_Royale and me, three of the younger private sector members of this community, have all mooted moving to other jurisdictions, that might prove rather costly.....
I can't remember the last time I used the state health system. Oh, actually, yes, it was when I was A&E being given a drug I told them I was allergic to.
I also know people who went to comprehensives who had lessons constantly disrupted by a minority who did not want to learn
In reality, the proposal is limited to removing the anomalous VAT tax break for private schools that probably most people didn’t even know existed (I didn’t).
If we had a decent Tory leader and Chancellor we might make progress in the polls off the back of this misfire.
The other day I had a signature delivery at a house on my round called Ulmus. I told the owner that his house name had encouraged me to possibly do my first graffito since on desks at school, and write "ULMI" (with chalk) under the other house name on my route, "Elm Trees"
I added that making the effort to do graffiti in the traditional Latin should make it have exemptions to the usual criticism. He laughed quite a bit
He now seems to think I'm a real hoot and has come to the door every time I've put a letter through his door since. I hope he doesn't want much more Latin humour
https://twitter.com/mikeg24764/status/1598032200934772736
Born in 1939, recruited to Royal Fam in 1960, age 21. She was 17 during the Montgomery Bus Boycott, 29 when MLK was assassinated, 40 when Blair Peach was murdered, 54 when Stephen Lawrence was murdered. Spent her life close to the centres of power. Could read.
She was thrilled that through hard work (they set up a business) they could afford to send me to a school that was better than the local state ones.
In an ideal world all schools would be great, but we are along way from an ideal world.
I'm also now wondering to what extent a "public school" can be considered a self-perpetuating oligarchy whose main aim is its own survival. The sort of criticism made on here so often of, for instance, trade unions, or certain charities, seems to suit the public school rather better if anything.
Indeed, I would argue that as woke is a continuum not a boolean, and we might want every bookshop to move a little to the left, then less is clearly the correct usage.
Those CI taxes are too tempting. And they can still hector us from their tax havens.
Noted. Another class warfare advocate.
https://conservativehome.com/2022/11/30/our-cabinet-league-table/
(and so is Heremy Junt)
And, I went to one.
SKS needs to go further.
Really handy this policy - it has showed just who can be ignored on public policy.
(In case anyone is wondering, the woke-ness of a person or institution is measured in Markles.)
She was fab.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-uk-private-schoold-be-exempt-from-tax
(To be fair to oldsters, not much generational profile. That might change if the Mail carries on being cross, but so far the opinions are pretty stable across age groups.)
She never got the recognition she deserved as composer of Fleetwood Mac’s most melodic hits, and as an impeccable singer of white girl soul.
"Rt Hon Sir John Redwood MP (Wokingham) (Con): Over the last 48 hours, wind has generated as little as 1% of our electricity, and it was at 2% when I checked this morning, while of course most of the homes we represent use gas for heating. Will the Secretary of State confirm that we need to get on with issuing more production licences for domestic oil and gas, which cuts the carbon dioxide involved and will enable us to keep the lights on, which we cannot do when the wind does not blow?
Grant Shapps, Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy: My right hon. Friend is characteristically correct that we cannot always rely on a single form of electricity generation. As the French have found out, we cannot always rely on nuclear. I think France has 71 nuclear power stations in its fleet, but about half of them are down at the moment, so it cannot rely only on nuclear. I was discussing this very fact with my opposite number yesterday. I know that my right hon. Friend welcomes the £700 million development approval cash that we have put into the first new nuclear since the 1980s, and he is absolutely right that we need a broad spread of different energy forms to ensure that we can provide the cheap power we require at all times."
https://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2022/11/30/my-intervention-at-the-ministerial-statement-on-energy-security/
In a debate about ENERGY SECURITY necessitated by a vast increase in the price of GAS, the turd in a wig cannot even bring himself to find a bland, meaningless warm word or two for the domestic oil and gas industry. Not one. This Government is determined to wreck the economy. Labour would be better.
I'm pretty sure she was on this song from 69, so pre-Fleetwood Mac
It Takes a Lot to Laugh It Takes a Train to Cry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc1eI9I4kMo
Check it out @Gardenwalker