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Should Rishi support onshore wind farms or oppose? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,163
edited December 2022 in General
imageShould Rishi support onshore wind farms or oppose? – politicalbetting.com

There is nothing like an energy crisis with predicted soaring costs that causes politicians to look at alternative sources which in the past have been a opposed.

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Comments

  • Should we allow onshore wind farms?

    The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind...

    (I claim first post privilege to absolve me from any criticism for a comment that is, I accept, a long way from representing the epitome of good humour)
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    There is a whiff of John Major's '92-97 admin about Rishi Sunak, a divided Party a rather bland former Chief Sec to the Treasury now in No.10 and an absolute absence of ideology/vision all overshadowed by the events of a difficult September, a war in Europe's east and the UK declining on the world stage... rowing over fracking/onshore/offshore/nuclear pretty much sums up the rearranging of the Titanic's deckchairs as it the Party drifts closer to the next election..
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    Not all onshore wind is the same. I have zero problem with my nearest windfarm, on the site of an old WW2 airfield.

    I have big problems with large tranches of moorland being permanently scarred by windfarms.

    So yes, we should allow onshore wind; but we should sure as heck consider *all* environmental considerations when placing them.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Should we allow onshore wind farms?

    The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind...

    (I claim first post privilege to absolve me from any criticism for a comment that is, I accept, a long way from representing the epitome of good humour)

    I'll bring your coat - you'll need it as it's a bit windy outside...
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    edited November 2022

    Not all onshore wind is the same. I have zero problem with my nearest windfarm, on the site of an old WW2 airfield.

    I have big problems with large tranches of moorland being permanently scarred by windfarms.

    So yes, we should allow onshore wind; but we should sure as heck consider *all* environmental considerations when placing them.

    I support them - maybe they'd be a little less intrusive if they weren't white - possobly some camouflage design would help obviously not so good that ramblers , et al started walking/flying into them! Despite the extra cost I'm sure the off shore option is more efficient as it's windier and more often, out at sea.

    Here in Spain my solar hot water panel has given me free hot water almost continuously since April and even before only needed the electric boost for half an hour or so a day. This morning I get 12 panels on my south facing roof - we get well over 320 sunny days a year here.......
  • Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    felix said:

    Not all onshore wind is the same. I have zero problem with my nearest windfarm, on the site of an old WW2 airfield.

    I have big problems with large tranches of moorland being permanently scarred by windfarms.

    So yes, we should allow onshore wind; but we should sure as heck consider *all* environmental considerations when placing them.

    I support them - maybe they'd be a little less intrusive if they weren't white - possobly some camouflage design would help obviously not so good that ramblers , et al started walking/flying into them! Despite the extra cost I'm sure the off shore option is more efficient as it's windier and more often, out at sea.

    (Snip)
    The problem with upland windfarms is nothing to do with visual intrusiveness. It's the fact that you have to create massive (and I mean massive) haul roads just to get them up there. These wind up the slopes and across the moors. And they're deep, to support the weight. And moorland contains a vast amount of CO2 that we do no want released.

    Then there are other aspects: those same haul roads make access much easier, converting wilderness into anything-but-wilderness. Or the alteration of drainage patterns caused by the haul roads.

    We've mucked about with our moorlands for decades now: e.g. EU subsidies to improve drainage (which just increased erosion), or planting loads of ecologically-nasty dense coniferous plantations over them. We need to be showing them more care.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.
    The weekend before last, I did an early-morning run along the coast to Lowestoft. Out to sea there were a line of blinking red, green and white lights stretching along the coast, all from the wind turbines out at sea. It was quite pretty. And seeing the turbines in daylight is quite something - and I believe that one was a *small* farm.
  • Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    UK offshore wind farm map


  • Oppose, because since 15:30 yesterday (28/11) the windfarms havn't produced more than 0.7GW of power, with demand being currently 28GW. If fact they have probably been using more power just to keep the turbines turning.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    UK offshore wind farm map


    Is the blue bit Scotland?

  • FPT - so Star Wars is vapid bilge?

    Got it.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,917
    edited November 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.

    TBF, that does give Scotland (360kW) over twice as much per capita as England (175kW)
  • Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    UK offshore wind farm map


    Is the blue bit Scotland?

    Isn't that the sea?

    The blue circles are being built or going to be built
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158

    ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.

    TBF, that does give Scotland (360kW) over twice as much per capita as England (175kW)
    Are you counting a Scot as the equal of an Englishman?
  • ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.
    Nationalists have a pretty tenuous relationship with the truth lie when it comes to wind:

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23154879.alex-cole-hamilton-contacts-stats-authority-snp-wind-power-claim/

    The other issue with wind power is transmission over distance costs money - so while Scotland has a lot of wind potential (though nothing like as much as Nats claim) most of it is distant from the electricity demand.
  • rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.

    TBF, that does give Scotland (360kW) over twice as much per capita as England (175kW)
    Are you counting a Scot as the equal of an Englishman?
    I fear so. I wasn't sure how to fairly represent their innate awesomeness in such a calculation
  • The role of the civil service in Scotland is being re-examined following the Supreme Court’s ruling last week that Holyrood does not have the power to legislate for an independence referendum.

    Senior Whitehall officials are examining whether Scottish civil servants should be allowed to keep working on the SNP’s independence plans following the landmark court decision. Simon Case, who as cabinet secretary is the UK’s most senior civil servant, and Sue Gray, the permanent secretary to the Cabinet Office are looking at what effect the decision has on officials north of the border. Gray led the so-called “Partygate” investigation into Boris Johnson,

    The court verdict led to Nicola Sturgeon pledging that the next general election in Scotland will be a de facto referendum on independence . Questions have been raised since the ruling about whether it is legitimate for public money to continue to be spent making the case for independence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6fb75fcc-6f58-11ed-8a5b-f385de7508fe
  • ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.

    TBF, that does give Scotland (360kW) over twice as much per capita as England (175kW)
    I think I've made them both a thousand times too big..

    360Wpp Scotland

    175Wpp England
  • Substantial use of renewables needs a bit of a different mindset to fossil fuel energy-more both-and than either-or.

    Partly that's about reducing the intermittency problem, and partly it's because the resources are so diffuse. We're going to need a lot of machines to tap into them.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    PM to U-turn on leadership pledge by 'surrendering to Tory wind rebels' https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/20584369/rishi-sunak-tory-wind-rebels-ban/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    ...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited November 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.

    TBF, that does give Scotland (360kW) over twice as much per capita as England (175kW)
    On that basis I’m pretty sure Wales would come out still better although I haven’t done the sums.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Tony Drago can relax (if that’s the right word)!

    Scottish Open: Ronnie O'Sullivan misses fastest TV century break by three seconds
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/snooker/63784265
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    It’s absurd that ministers have put their flagship legislation on ice because the PM is scared of his own backbenchers.

    We deserve better than a government that cannot govern, so Labour will step up and lend our votes. There’s no excuse for more delay

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/levelling-up-bill-is-just-another-broken-tory-promise-vq0szdpfs
  • felix said:

    Not all onshore wind is the same. I have zero problem with my nearest windfarm, on the site of an old WW2 airfield.

    I have big problems with large tranches of moorland being permanently scarred by windfarms.

    So yes, we should allow onshore wind; but we should sure as heck consider *all* environmental considerations when placing them.

    I support them - maybe they'd be a little less intrusive if they weren't white - possobly some camouflage design would help obviously not so good that ramblers , et al started walking/flying into them! Despite the extra cost I'm sure the off shore option is more efficient as it's windier and more often, out at sea.

    (Snip)
    The problem with upland windfarms is nothing to do with visual intrusiveness. It's the fact that you have to create massive (and I mean massive) haul roads just to get them up there. These wind up the slopes and across the moors. And they're deep, to support the weight. And moorland contains a vast amount of CO2 that we do no want released.

    Then there are other aspects: those same haul roads make access much easier, converting wilderness into anything-but-wilderness. Or the alteration of drainage patterns caused by the haul roads.

    We've mucked about with our moorlands for decades now: e.g. EU subsidies to improve drainage (which just increased erosion), or planting loads of ecologically-nasty dense coniferous plantations over them. We need to be showing them more care.
    Though to be fair, there are considerable areas of Eastern England - notably in Lincolnshire as an example - where you couldn't put wind farms without them doing the same environmental damage. They would, in effect, be bringing the offshore farms onshore.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    It's not uncommon for people to suddenly discover that their business is essential to the survival of humanity.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    @elonmusk Meanwhile in Germany, where hate speech is banned, here's what "tyrrany" looks like
    https://awol.com.au/5-bars-that-prove-berlin-has-the-best-nightlife-in-the-world/12156 https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1597486415256113162/photo/1
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158
    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    But we need to invest in both rather than effectively banning one of them.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.

    TBF, that does give Scotland (360kW) over twice as much per capita as England (175kW)
    On that basis I’m pretty sure Wales would come out still better although I haven’t done the sums.
    I think Wales has less than a GW and more than half the population of Scotland

    Also, this is maximum capacity, not actual power generation which is where the Scottish Natural Awesomeness Factor Unleashed comes into play
  • https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/29/evidence-grows-of-forced-labour-and-slavery-in-production-of-solar-panels-wind-turbines

    And the devices we are merrily posting away on. Like 18th century Britons liking a little sugar in their tea.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.

    TBF, that does give Scotland (360kW) over twice as much per capita as England (175kW)
    On that basis I’m pretty sure Wales would come out still better although I haven’t done the sums.
    I think Wales has less than a GW and more than half the population of Scotland

    Also, this is maximum capacity, not actual power generation which is where the Scottish Natural Awesomeness Factor Unleashed comes into play
    You’re right, I thought Scotland had a larger population than it does.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    But we need to invest in both rather than effectively banning one of them.
    Agreed
  • Scott_xP said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    @elonmusk Meanwhile in Germany, where hate speech is banned, here's what "tyrrany" looks like
    https://awol.com.au/5-bars-that-prove-berlin-has-the-best-nightlife-in-the-world/12156 https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1597486415256113162/photo/1
    Only been to two of them but I’ll definitely give Neue Odessa a try. Too past it for Berghain I fear 🙁
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    This is the key for me. Wind power reduces imports and increases the potential for exports. We are simply not in a position to be pusillanimous about this: go for it, onshore, offshore, whatever. I also think that the massively increased interconnectivity between European countries is doing a lot to solve the battery problem. When the wind blows in the north sea everyone across Europe can burn less gas.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    There are 29 offshore wind farms in England, generating about 9.7 GW of electricity.

    There are seven in Scotland generating around 2GW of electricity.

    The balance is in Wales.

    If you’re going to tell lies to support your obsessive xenophobia at least try to make them intelligent ones.

    TBF, that does give Scotland (360kW) over twice as much per capita as England (175kW)
    On that basis I’m pretty sure Wales would come out still better although I haven’t done the sums.
    I think Wales has less than a GW and more than half the population of Scotland

    Also, this is maximum capacity, not actual power generation which is where the Scottish Natural Awesomeness Factor Unleashed comes into play
    You’re right, I thought Scotland had a larger population than it does.
    Presumably because so many of us post here.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    I think he did once have 'it'. My current suspicion is that he thinks there's a strong possibility that Twitter will fail, and he's laying the groundwork to blame someone - anybody - else. The advertisers. The agencies. Wokeists. The left. Apple.

    When the blame lies solely with him.

    But who knows, he might turn Twitter around and make it insanely profitable. But he seems to be going a very odd way about it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    The only slight red herring in the header piece is on the issue of price. Whilst it is cheaper to build onshore wind farms, as long as the price of the electricity is fixed to the price of gas generation, it does nothing to reduce the bills of the consumers. We need to find a way to break that link.

    When you have days like today where more than 60% of our energy is coming from gas that is going to be difficult. When the 2 mega farms ar Dogger Bank come online Wind may become our dominant supply.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    Yes yes yes to this. Financially, to the consumer, wind doesn't make sense. Farms are getting thrown up because it's guaranteed money. Tidal you would never have to pay any constraint payments, and I wonder if that has gone into the civil service calculations on the matter.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    But we need to invest in both rather than effectively banning one of them.
    Agreed
    Wind isn't reliable at all. You can have whole 'bad years' for wind - afaicr 2021 was one. There was certainly one recently.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,258

    Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    How lucky we all are that the ever wose Scottish electorate decided to remain part of the UK

  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,001

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    But we need to invest in both rather than effectively banning one of them.
    As the saying goes: it's very rare that there's a silver bullet. But there's usually silver buckshot.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Hmm. Dick Stuartson posts a lie on pb, is refuted by lots of posters, disappears. Most odd.
    Do other Scottish Nationalists behave the same way? Or can they not recall?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    I think he did once have 'it'. My current suspicion is that he thinks there's a strong possibility that Twitter will fail, and he's laying the groundwork to blame someone - anybody - else. The advertisers. The agencies. Wokeists. The left. Apple.

    When the blame lies solely with him.

    But who knows, he might turn Twitter around and make it insanely profitable. But he seems to be going a very odd way about it.
    What I see as insane about Twitter is the price he paid for it. The challenge for whoever owned Twitter was how do you monetise that huge infrastructure and cost base and generate a decent return? Its value, and the price Musk paid, was always in a slightly nebulous potential than actual earnings. With his paying for blue ticks, reduction in staff costs etc it seems to me Musk is at least trying to address the problem.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.
    Musk is just looking for people to blame as he tries to gain the sympathies of the far right.

    As for Apple: they would be perfectly within their rights to remove the Twitter app.

    Have you seen Tesla's market capitalisation compared to Apple's? Apple is worth 2.29 trillion. Tesla is 573.17 billion. Apple is far bigger, and has a much bigger and rabid fanbase (as we see on here).

    I am not a fan of Apple, but Musk is bang out of order on this. And as for the Musk Fanbois who suggest Musk is going to produce a smartphone... I fear they're a little deluded.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.

    If Apple does ban Twitter from the App Store while carrying the apps for completely unmoderated chat systems, then I predict that will trigger the politics to break control of the App Store Waller Garden away from Apple.

    The most entertaining thing in that battle will be all the people who wanted the walled garden broken down, who will suddenly support it to the death.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.

    If Apple does ban Twitter from the App Store while carrying the apps for completely unmoderated chat systems, then I predict that will trigger the politics to break control of the App Store Waller Garden away from Apple.

    The most entertaining thing in that battle will be all the people who wanted the walled garden broken down, who will suddenly support it to the death.
    AIUI Apple has very stringent controls on what goes onto the app store, technically. If they think your app will break the OS, it won't go on or will be removed. They also have strict privacy don'ts. Given that Twitter have just got rid of a load of people who made the app, I would not be surprised if the app suddenly broke in weird and wonderful ways that would cause Apple to remove it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    Hmm. Dick Stuartson posts a lie on pb, is refuted by lots of posters, disappears. Most odd.
    Do other Scottish Nationalists behave the same way? Or can they not recall?

    If his point was that Scotland is leading, then, size-adjusted, arguably he has a point. But his implication that England was somehow lagging is mis-leading; I remember from when I had my PPL seeing the North Sea offshore fields from the air, and they are big.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    DavidL said:

    The only slight red herring in the header piece is on the issue of price. Whilst it is cheaper to build onshore wind farms, as long as the price of the electricity is fixed to the price of gas generation, it does nothing to reduce the bills of the consumers. We need to find a way to break that link.

    When you have days like today where more than 60% of our energy is coming from gas that is going to be difficult. When the 2 mega farms ar Dogger Bank come online Wind may become our dominant supply.
    Offshore wind may not be more expensive anymore - it can use much bigger turbines. Which are gaining efficiency as they get bigger. In addition the sea provides lots of nice, open fetch - good wind.

    The problems with onshore have been mentioned - the main one is the damage done getting the turbines in place. The other is the limitation to smaller, less efficient turbines.

    Moving a 50m turbine blade on land is stretching what is possible. On the sea, a 100m blade is a not especially large or heavy cargo. The cranes to lift the parts into place are even more of an issue. At sea you can get multi-thousand ton lift cranes easily. On land a crane that can lift 10 tons that high is a big production to get in place.

    There is no shortage of offshore wind farm sites. Enough to provide x times the entire grid consumption of the U.K.
  • moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.
    Musk is just looking for people to blame as he tries to gain the sympathies of the far right.

    As for Apple: they would be perfectly within their rights to remove the Twitter app.

    Have you seen Tesla's market capitalisation compared to Apple's? Apple is worth 2.29 trillion. Tesla is 573.17 billion. Apple is far bigger, and has a much bigger and rabid fanbase (as we see on here).

    I am not a fan of Apple, but Musk is bang out of order on this. And as for the Musk Fanbois who suggest Musk is going to produce a smartphone... I fear they're a little deluded.
    What on earth does the market cap of his car company have to do with anything?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Shire MPs by and large don't want onshore wind farms. So Rishi will oppose.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    I think he did once have 'it'. My current suspicion is that he thinks there's a strong possibility that Twitter will fail, and he's laying the groundwork to blame someone - anybody - else. The advertisers. The agencies. Wokeists. The left. Apple.

    When the blame lies solely with him.

    But who knows, he might turn Twitter around and make it insanely profitable. But he seems to be going a very odd way about it.
    What I see as insane about Twitter is the price he paid for it. The challenge for whoever owned Twitter was how do you monetise that huge infrastructure and cost base and generate a decent return? Its value, and the price Musk paid, was always in a slightly nebulous potential than actual earnings. With his paying for blue ticks, reduction in staff costs etc it seems to me Musk is at least trying to address the problem.
    Address the problem, or crash the company?

    Do you think Twitters cash flow has improved these last few weeks?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    pillsbury said:

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.
    Musk is just looking for people to blame as he tries to gain the sympathies of the far right.

    As for Apple: they would be perfectly within their rights to remove the Twitter app.

    Have you seen Tesla's market capitalisation compared to Apple's? Apple is worth 2.29 trillion. Tesla is 573.17 billion. Apple is far bigger, and has a much bigger and rabid fanbase (as we see on here).

    I am not a fan of Apple, but Musk is bang out of order on this. And as for the Musk Fanbois who suggest Musk is going to produce a smartphone... I fear they're a little deluded.
    What on earth does the market cap of his car company have to do with anything?
    Power and influence.
  • IanB2 said:

    Hmm. Dick Stuartson posts a lie on pb, is refuted by lots of posters, disappears. Most odd.
    Do other Scottish Nationalists behave the same way? Or can they not recall?

    If his point was that Scotland is leading, then, size-adjusted, arguably he has a point. But his implication that England was somehow lagging is mis-leading; I remember from when I had my PPL seeing the North Sea offshore fields from the air, and they are big.
    Was he talking about present generating capacity, or more generally bigging up Scotch vs English wind?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,258
    pillsbury said:

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.
    Musk is just looking for people to blame as he tries to gain the sympathies of the far right.

    As for Apple: they would be perfectly within their rights to remove the Twitter app.

    Have you seen Tesla's market capitalisation compared to Apple's? Apple is worth 2.29 trillion. Tesla is 573.17 billion. Apple is far bigger, and has a much bigger and rabid fanbase (as we see on here).

    I am not a fan of Apple, but Musk is bang out of order on this. And as for the Musk Fanbois who suggest Musk is going to produce a smartphone... I fear they're a little deluded.
    What on earth does the market cap of his car company have to do with anything?
    The probability of Musk beating Apple in a fight
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072

    There's been an interesting shift in the energy debate over the last decade. A decade ago the conversation was whether we should move to renewables. Now it is *how* we move to renewables, and the sort of renewables mix we have.

    That's progress, of a sort.

    That it's also become a matter of nationalist chest beating is, on balance, also not a bad thing.
    Though efficient use of renewable generation requires international cooperation.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    But we need to invest in both rather than effectively banning one of them.
    As the saying goes: it's very rare that there's a silver bullet. But there's usually silver buckshot.
    Tidal, because of predictability, needs little or no storage.

    In addition, depending how it is designed and built, it can actually act as storage for other generation sources - pump extra water into the ponds.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    But we need to invest in both rather than effectively banning one of them.
    As the saying goes: it's very rare that there's a silver bullet. But there's usually silver buckshot.
    Tidal, because of predictability, needs little or no storage.

    In addition, depending how it is designed and built, it can actually act as storage for other generation sources - pump extra water into the ponds.
    Can we all finally agree that the multiple governments who passed on even experimenting with tidal power were muppets?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    I think he did once have 'it'. My current suspicion is that he thinks there's a strong possibility that Twitter will fail, and he's laying the groundwork to blame someone - anybody - else. The advertisers. The agencies. Wokeists. The left. Apple.

    When the blame lies solely with him.

    But who knows, he might turn Twitter around and make it insanely profitable. But he seems to be going a very odd way about it.
    What I see as insane about Twitter is the price he paid for it. The challenge for whoever owned Twitter was how do you monetise that huge infrastructure and cost base and generate a decent return? Its value, and the price Musk paid, was always in a slightly nebulous potential than actual earnings. With his paying for blue ticks, reduction in staff costs etc it seems to me Musk is at least trying to address the problem.
    His purchase of the company for an uneconomic price has added a billion a year in junk bond financing costs.
    That's added to the 'problem'.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    pillsbury said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/29/evidence-grows-of-forced-labour-and-slavery-in-production-of-solar-panels-wind-turbines

    And the devices we are merrily posting away on. Like 18th century Britons liking a little sugar in their tea.

    You do need to take care with such articles. Had one the other day about Cobalt production - mainly to slam a manufacturer of EVs. Who is moving to zero cobalt battery chemistries.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Nigelb said:

    There's been an interesting shift in the energy debate over the last decade. A decade ago the conversation was whether we should move to renewables. Now it is *how* we move to renewables, and the sort of renewables mix we have.

    That's progress, of a sort.

    That it's also become a matter of nationalist chest beating is, on balance, also not a bad thing.
    Though efficient use of renewable generation requires international cooperation.
    The amount of hot air the SNP has generated recently if harvested properly could probably meet 75% of Scotland's energy needs on its own.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    But we need to invest in both rather than effectively banning one of them.
    Agreed
    Wind isn't reliable at all. You can have whole 'bad years' for wind - afaicr 2021 was one. There was certainly one recently.
    And you can't have very bad years indeed for (say) gas ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    felix said:

    Not all onshore wind is the same. I have zero problem with my nearest windfarm, on the site of an old WW2 airfield.

    I have big problems with large tranches of moorland being permanently scarred by windfarms.

    So yes, we should allow onshore wind; but we should sure as heck consider *all* environmental considerations when placing them.

    I support them - maybe they'd be a little less intrusive if they weren't white - possobly some camouflage design would help obviously not so good that ramblers , et al started walking/flying into them! Despite the extra cost I'm sure the off shore option is more efficient as it's windier and more often, out at sea.

    (Snip)
    The problem with upland windfarms is nothing to do with visual intrusiveness. It's the fact that you have to create massive (and I mean massive) haul roads just to get them up there. These wind up the slopes and across the moors. And they're deep, to support the weight. And moorland contains a vast amount of CO2 that we do no want released.

    Then there are other aspects: those same haul roads make access much easier, converting wilderness into anything-but-wilderness. Or the alteration of drainage patterns caused by the haul roads.

    We've mucked about with our moorlands for decades now: e.g. EU subsidies to improve drainage (which just increased erosion), or planting loads of ecologically-nasty dense coniferous plantations over them. We need to be showing them more care.
    The question is how to account for such externalities. I wouldn’t ban onshore wind farms.

    But they need to factor in such damage.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.

    If Apple does ban Twitter from the App Store while carrying the apps for completely unmoderated chat systems, then I predict that will trigger the politics to break control of the App Store Waller Garden away from Apple.

    The most entertaining thing in that battle will be all the people who wanted the walled garden broken down, who will suddenly support it to the death.
    AIUI Apple has very stringent controls on what goes onto the app store, technically. If they think your app will break the OS, it won't go on or will be removed. They also have strict privacy don'ts. Given that Twitter have just got rid of a load of people who made the app, I would not be surprised if the app suddenly broke in weird and wonderful ways that would cause Apple to remove it.
    Maybe I am just a cynic but this strikes me as just posturing over fees. Musk has said several times he is not happy with the fees charged and even posted memes about it. He is looking to turn twitter into a cash generator. All of what he is doing is geared towards that.

    Parler and Gettr and Truthsocial are on Apple stores. Why wouldn't twitter be.
  • Support. You’ll have to once the Scots stop supplying free electricity.

    And by the way, Scotland leads the world in offshore wind. England doesn’t.

    How lucky we all are that the ever wose Scottish electorate decided to remain part of the UK

    'The ever wose(sic) Scottish electorate'? Can you be a bit clearer on what you're trying too say there, or are you just not much good at the English language thing?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    felix said:

    Not all onshore wind is the same. I have zero problem with my nearest windfarm, on the site of an old WW2 airfield.

    I have big problems with large tranches of moorland being permanently scarred by windfarms.

    So yes, we should allow onshore wind; but we should sure as heck consider *all* environmental considerations when placing them.

    I support them - maybe they'd be a little less intrusive if they weren't white - possobly some camouflage design would help obviously not so good that ramblers , et al started walking/flying into them! Despite the extra cost I'm sure the off shore option is more efficient as it's windier and more often, out at sea.

    (Snip)
    The problem with upland windfarms is nothing to do with visual intrusiveness. It's the fact that you have to create massive (and I mean massive) haul roads just to get them up there. These wind up the slopes and across the moors. And they're deep, to support the weight. And moorland contains a vast amount of CO2 that we do no want released.

    Then there are other aspects: those same haul roads make access much easier, converting wilderness into anything-but-wilderness. Or the alteration of drainage patterns caused by the haul roads.

    We've mucked about with our moorlands for decades now: e.g. EU subsidies to improve drainage (which just increased erosion), or planting loads of ecologically-nasty dense coniferous plantations over them. We need to be showing them more care.
    The question is how to account for such externalities. I wouldn’t ban onshore wind farms.

    But they need to factor in such damage.
    Which was my point.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,063
    edited November 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    Good morning

    Conversation on Sky this morning between Burley and Jonathan Ashworth

    Burley - 'they were talking of rationing energy during the England v Wales match tonight - what is all that about?'

    Ashworth - 'it is due to 12 years of Tory neglect and lack of onshore wind farms'

    The question and answer demonstrates terrible journalism and party politics response

    Burley should have referred to the windfarms providing just 2% of our energy yesterday, threatening the electricity supply, and even with more onshore windfarms just how would labour address the issue that 63% of energy yesterday came from gas

    Burley is not the only journalist who really does not provide serious discussion on complex matters

    And I agree tidal is needed
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    Apple is worth 2.29 trillion. Tesla is 573.17 billion.

    David vs Goliath
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    But we need to invest in both rather than effectively banning one of them.
    As the saying goes: it's very rare that there's a silver bullet. But there's usually silver buckshot.
    Tidal, because of predictability, needs little or no storage.

    In addition, depending how it is designed and built, it can actually act as storage for other generation sources - pump extra water into the ponds.
    Can we all finally agree that the multiple governments who passed on even experimenting with tidal power were muppets?
    The problem seems to be a combination of the following

    1) Big Project Syndrome. Wind farms scale from on turbine etc
    2) which leads into the “needs 2 decades of planning enquiries” thing. Some people believe this is a moral right. The anger produced by the streamlining of onshore wind
    applications and those for small power storage is amusing.
    3) Persistent opposition in the permanent government apparatus. Dr Palmer tells us if a report on the cost of tidal, which he saw as an MP. If it the same report I have seen, it is based on a number of untruths about tidal. So for decades, both Labour and Conservative governments have been told debatable facts by the… experts.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    felix said:

    Not all onshore wind is the same. I have zero problem with my nearest windfarm, on the site of an old WW2 airfield.

    I have big problems with large tranches of moorland being permanently scarred by windfarms.

    So yes, we should allow onshore wind; but we should sure as heck consider *all* environmental considerations when placing them.

    I support them - maybe they'd be a little less intrusive if they weren't white - possobly some camouflage design would help obviously not so good that ramblers , et al started walking/flying into them! Despite the extra cost I'm sure the off shore option is more efficient as it's windier and more often, out at sea.

    (Snip)
    The problem with upland windfarms is nothing to do with visual intrusiveness. It's the fact that you have to create massive (and I mean massive) haul roads just to get them up there. These wind up the slopes and across the moors. And they're deep, to support the weight. And moorland contains a vast amount of CO2 that we do no want released.

    Then there are other aspects: those same haul roads make access much easier, converting wilderness into anything-but-wilderness. Or the alteration of drainage patterns caused by the haul roads.

    We've mucked about with our moorlands for decades now: e.g. EU subsidies to improve drainage (which just increased erosion), or planting loads of ecologically-nasty dense coniferous plantations over them. We need to be showing them more care.
    The question is how to account for such externalities. I wouldn’t ban onshore wind farms.

    But they need to factor in such damage.
    Which was my point.
    I think we are furiously agreeing
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    Pulpstar said:

    Apple is worth 2.29 trillion. Tesla is 573.17 billion.

    David vs Goliath
    Look at this another way: Musk is definitely making a shift to the right - and the nasty side of the right as well. Who has traditionally bought Teslas? People on the left: the environment-loving, latte-sipping types.

    Perhaps Tesla has widened its market enough to embrace more people. But they're probably pi**ing off some owners and would-be owners.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    Good morning

    Conversation on Sky this morning between Burley and Jonathan Ashworth

    Burley - 'they were talking of rationing energy during the England v Wales match tonight - what is all that about?'

    Ashworth - 'it is due to 12 years of Tory neglect and lack of onshore wind farms'

    The question and answer demonstrates terrible journalism and party politics response

    Burley should have referred to the windfarms providing just 2% of our energy yesterday, threatening the electricity supply, and even with more onshore windfarms just how would labour address the issue that 63% of energy yesterday came from gas

    Burley is not the only journalist who really does not provide serious discussion on complex matters

    And I agree tidal is needed
    Journalists like Burley are not really interested in serious discussion. It's all about gotchas and headlines for new stories to go on social media to drive traffic to the website.

    Ashworth is just trotting out the same pre prepared lines Nandy was trotting out on the Andrew Neil show. Expect far more of it and it will be effective. It may not be true but it will be effective.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    Good morning

    Conversation on Sky this morning between Burley and Jonathan Ashworth

    Burley - 'they were talking of rationing energy during the England v Wales match tonight - what is all that about?'

    Ashworth - 'it is due to 12 years of Tory neglect and lack of onshore wind farms'

    The question and answer demonstrates terrible journalism and party politics response

    Burley should have referred to the windfarms providing just 2% of our energy yesterday, threatening the electricity supply, and even with more onshore windfarms just how would labour address the issue that 63% of energy yesterday came from gas

    Burley is not the only journalist who really does not provide serious discussion on complex matters

    And I agree tidal is needed
    The truth is that all governments have for years either made no decisions on energy, or made foolish and short-term ones.

    Blair and Brown ducked the building of new nuclear plants in the 1990s. Cameron and Clegg made the decision to go for gas and wind instead of tidal and nuclear, apart from a rather half-arsed sop to the latter in the form of Sizewell C. May dithered in much the same way, and Johnson never even got started.

    But then, why limit it to energy? Similar criticisms could be made about transport, or phone infrastructure, or water.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    On topic - Yes onshore wind should be encouraged.

    The payment structure is important though - particularly if we're overabundant with power (Yes yes that's clearly not now on a foggy still day near the winter solstice)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    Taz said:

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.

    If Apple does ban Twitter from the App Store while carrying the apps for completely unmoderated chat systems, then I predict that will trigger the politics to break control of the App Store Waller Garden away from Apple.

    The most entertaining thing in that battle will be all the people who wanted the walled garden broken down, who will suddenly support it to the death.
    AIUI Apple has very stringent controls on what goes onto the app store, technically. If they think your app will break the OS, it won't go on or will be removed. They also have strict privacy don'ts. Given that Twitter have just got rid of a load of people who made the app, I would not be surprised if the app suddenly broke in weird and wonderful ways that would cause Apple to remove it.
    Maybe I am just a cynic but this strikes me as just posturing over fees. Musk has said several times he is not happy with the fees charged and even posted memes about it. He is looking to turn twitter into a cash generator. All of what he is doing is geared towards that.

    Parler and Gettr and Truthsocial are on Apple stores. Why wouldn't twitter be.
    Shit coding doesn’t stop Apps getting in the App Store. The number of horrible auto-conversions from web….

    It is nearly impossible for an app to do much to the overall phone in iOS.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    Taz said:

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.

    If Apple does ban Twitter from the App Store while carrying the apps for completely unmoderated chat systems, then I predict that will trigger the politics to break control of the App Store Waller Garden away from Apple.

    The most entertaining thing in that battle will be all the people who wanted the walled garden broken down, who will suddenly support it to the death.
    AIUI Apple has very stringent controls on what goes onto the app store, technically. If they think your app will break the OS, it won't go on or will be removed. They also have strict privacy don'ts. Given that Twitter have just got rid of a load of people who made the app, I would not be surprised if the app suddenly broke in weird and wonderful ways that would cause Apple to remove it.
    Maybe I am just a cynic but this strikes me as just posturing over fees. Musk has said several times he is not happy with the fees charged and even posted memes about it. He is looking to turn twitter into a cash generator. All of what he is doing is geared towards that.

    Parler and Gettr and Truthsocial are on Apple stores. Why wouldn't twitter be.
    Shit coding doesn’t stop Apps getting in the App Store. The number of horrible auto-conversions from web….

    It is nearly impossible for an app to do much to the overall phone in iOS.
    Challenge accepted. ;)
  • Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    Good morning

    Conversation on Sky this morning between Burley and Jonathan Ashworth

    Burley - 'they were talking of rationing energy during the England v Wales match tonight - what is all that about?'

    Ashworth - 'it is due to 12 years of Tory neglect and lack of onshore wind farms'

    The question and answer demonstrates terrible journalism and party politics response

    Burley should have referred to the windfarms providing just 2% of our energy yesterday, threatening the electricity supply, and even with more onshore windfarms just how would labour address the issue that 63% of energy yesterday came from gas

    Burley is not the only journalist who really does not provide serious discussion on complex matters

    And I agree tidal is needed
    Journalists like Burley are not really interested in serious discussion. It's all about gotchas and headlines for new stories to go on social media to drive traffic to the website.

    Ashworth is just trotting out the same pre prepared lines Nandy was trotting out on the Andrew Neil show. Expect far more of it and it will be effective. It may not be true but it will be effective.
    I do expect more of it and to be honest there is a part of me wanting to see Labour in power to see them having, for the first time, to face reality and make very difficult and unpopular decisions

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    Yes yes yes to this. Financially, to the consumer, wind doesn't make sense. Farms are getting thrown up because it's guaranteed money. Tidal you would never have to pay any constraint payments, and I wonder if that has gone into the civil service calculations on the matter.
    I'm a proponent of tidal, but this argument is just nonsense.
    Onshore wind is the cheapest way to generate electricity in the UK, constraint payments (with which you seem strangely obsessed) included.
    Any significant tidal capacity will take a decade or more (once approved) to build; onshore wind a year or so.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    This is the key for me. Wind power reduces imports and increases the potential for exports. We are simply not in a position to be pusillanimous about this: go for it, onshore, offshore, whatever. I also think that the massively increased interconnectivity between European countries is doing a lot to solve the battery problem. When the wind blows in the north sea everyone across Europe can burn less gas.
    Agreed. Some dated info FWIW: when I was PPS to the Energy Minister (Malcolm Wicks), onshore wind was massively cheaper to produce allowing for all constructions and maintenance costs than anything else (and tidal was FAR more expensive). Offshore wind wasn't bad but the maintenance costs for installations in deep water made it inferior to onshore. These factors may have changed for reasons mentioned elsewhere on the thread and there are externalities to consider such as the impact of access roads, but I doubt if the basic mathematics are all that different.

    There was also an EU project which I think still exists as a long-term concept as links are gradually developed - linking energy supply across the continent and across the Med to North Africa, on the basis that you'd almost never get a situation where there was a shortage of wind in Norway and sun in Algeria at the same time. Loss on energy in transit as an issue, but a surprisingly small one. It's the kind of pan-European project where we should be happy to take part regardless of our views on Brexit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    Taz said:

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    "This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1597405399040217088

    He's lost it.

    That implies he once had it.
    China is using government social media apps to enforce ultimate tyranny. This will become clearer over the next year as it faces down its own population.

    The US / Europe have a different economic tradition to China, namely one of private sector monopolies or oligopolies. But it should be very clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that social media in the West is at the top of the same slope that China has already descended down.

    People like to argue that it doesn’t impact free speech if Twitter or Facebook or Apple choose to block perfectly legal statements from their platforms. But that rather overlooks the monopolies they enjoy, especially when looked at as a Silicon Valley blob.

    If true that Apple has threatened to remove Twitter from the App Store that would be a pretty scary revelation indeed. And almost certainly a counterproductive one, given you really don’t want to give Musk the bit between his teeth to go after you. Hopefully Tim Cook realises this and calms his people down a bit.

    If Apple does ban Twitter from the App Store while carrying the apps for completely unmoderated chat systems, then I predict that will trigger the politics to break control of the App Store Waller Garden away from Apple.

    The most entertaining thing in that battle will be all the people who wanted the walled garden broken down, who will suddenly support it to the death.
    AIUI Apple has very stringent controls on what goes onto the app store, technically. If they think your app will break the OS, it won't go on or will be removed. They also have strict privacy don'ts. Given that Twitter have just got rid of a load of people who made the app, I would not be surprised if the app suddenly broke in weird and wonderful ways that would cause Apple to remove it.
    Maybe I am just a cynic but this strikes me as just posturing over fees. Musk has said several times he is not happy with the fees charged and even posted memes about it. He is looking to turn twitter into a cash generator. All of what he is doing is geared towards that.

    Parler and Gettr and Truthsocial are on Apple stores. Why wouldn't twitter be.
    Shit coding doesn’t stop Apps getting in the App Store. The number of horrible auto-conversions from web….

    It is nearly impossible for an app to do much to the overall phone in iOS.
    Challenge accepted. ;)
    There are a horde of white hats who have been trying to break iOS from an app for many years now. There’s good money if you can…
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526
    Something that we don't seem to have in the UK debate is the Danish approach of giving communities a financial incentive to accept wind farms (which is one reason why the country has a huge number of them). If accepting some wind turbines on the horizon meant significantly lower council tax, I wonder whether opposition would persist.
  • “It’s very David Miliband that now we look like we might win he’s suddenly ‘ready’ to come back.”

    https://twitter.com/kevinaschofield/status/1597505299963064330
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    edited November 2022
    Mr G,

    Journalists are only interested in drama, facts don't matter. Many don't know any facts. Twenty-four hour news has made things worse. From the famous quote in 'The man who shot Liberty Valance.' 'When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.'

    Politicians are elected for five years as a maximum. Tidal energy is front-loaded with costs before the benefits kick in. Why spend vast sums for the opposition to gain the benefit?

    You have to treat both occupations as being small children, because they act like them.
  • Finally Ferrari make their first correct strategy call in 2022.

    Mattia Binotto quits.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    edited November 2022
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    But we need to invest in both rather than effectively banning one of them.
    Agreed
    Wind isn't reliable at all. You can have whole 'bad years' for wind - afaicr 2021 was one. There was certainly one recently.
    And you can't have very bad years indeed for (say) gas ?
    You can have expensive years for gas, but you don't have an intermittent and unpredictable absence of gas power generation.

    We should never have bet on wind, and now that we have, the focus needs to be overwhelmingly on power storage, and incentivising low cost power generation, not people chucking up wind farms the same way that they've chucked up university accommodation - because ultimately it is a Government backed get rich quick scheme.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Finally Ferrari make their first correct strategy call in 2022.

    Mattia Binotto quits.

    Has their race strategist resigned as well? Because if not, a phrase about deckchairs and the Titanic springs to mind.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We need to build tidal power plants, because they're reliable, unlike wind farms. At some times yesterday wind was producing about 2% of power compared to 60% a couple of days earlier.

    That's harsh:

    Wind is reliable over long periods, it's just not reliable for today or next Thursday. (And, for that matter, tidal is great for knowing you'll get power today... But it won't necessarily be at the time of maximum demand.)

    Every kilowatt hour of electricity generated by wind is an mmbru of gas we don't need to import.
    This is the key for me. Wind power reduces imports and increases the potential for exports. We are simply not in a position to be pusillanimous about this: go for it, onshore, offshore, whatever. I also think that the massively increased interconnectivity between European countries is doing a lot to solve the battery problem. When the wind blows in the north sea everyone across Europe can burn less gas.
    Agreed. Some dated info FWIW: when I was PPS to the Energy Minister (Malcolm Wicks), onshore wind was massively cheaper to produce allowing for all constructions and maintenance costs than anything else (and tidal was FAR more expensive). Offshore wind wasn't bad but the maintenance costs for installations in deep water made it inferior to onshore. These factors may have changed for reasons mentioned elsewhere on the thread and there are externalities to consider such as the impact of access roads, but I doubt if the basic mathematics are all that different.

    There was also an EU project which I think still exists as a long-term concept as links are gradually developed - linking energy supply across the continent and across the Med to North Africa, on the basis that you'd almost never get a situation where there was a shortage of wind in Norway and sun in Algeria at the same time. Loss on energy in transit as an issue, but a surprisingly small one. It's the kind of pan-European project where we should be happy to take part regardless of our views on Brexit.
    No it isn't. These projects must be subjected to rigorous cost value analysis, and ditched where necessary. The interconnectors to Germany are a ludicrous waste of money when we don't have good interconnectors to Scottish wind farms.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    F1: while Ferrari did make strategy screwups, the drivers also made more errors than the Red Bull pair. And, more importantly, they lost the development race by a mile.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Something that we don't seem to have in the UK debate is the Danish approach of giving communities a financial incentive to accept wind farms (which is one reason why the country has a huge number of them). If accepting some wind turbines on the horizon meant significantly lower council tax, I wonder whether opposition would persist.

    Good morning everyone. An excellent point from @NickPalmer. Our village receives community grants from the local nuclear power station. I see no reason why similar grants shouldn’t be available from wind power producers.
    We should absolutely be building more onshore wind farms, although the first and second priorities should be offshore wind and tidal. The problem with building onshore wind farms is peat destruction. However, not all high, windy ground is peaty. There are plenty of places that are suitable, and not all need damaging access, especially if built close to existing infrastructure.
    I accept, however, that I may be in a minority in thinking that the turbines are attractive.
This discussion has been closed.