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Some good polling for Sunak over Johnson but terrible polling for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

13

Comments

  • biggles said:

    I've got a feeling Boris won't run. It will be a repeat of 2016 when he'll judge that the mood of the parliamentary party isn't behind him and bow out.

    Agree. And I think he’ll endorse Rishi, and be given an Ukraine role and/or pick of safe seats. He’ll hang around and generally be Boris, and be a campaigning weapon in 2024.

    When/if they lose then, he’ll be back to reform the party around himself.
    I think the Boris to the Home office rumour was nonsense but wonder if Boris could take a party chairman role. I guess it depends on the standards committee
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Officials will phone those members without an email over the weekend to urge them to add an email address to enable them to vote in the contest

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1583560721182642176

    Hahahaha anyone who has tried to assist an elderly relative with IT issues is currently laughing their colon inside out.

    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1583574131093929984
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    pigeon said:

    Vox pops in Bridgend on ITV Wales News was overwhelmingly Johnson. Interviewees were very skeptical of Labour and Starmer in particular.

    I may have read this all wrong and despite the scandals and the desperate economic situation, Johnson might pull another five years off against the run of play.

    Madness!

    Vox pops do not a properly conducted survey make. They probably went out on the streets looking for interviewees in the middle of the day, and found an assortment of confused elderly people and dangerous imbeciles wandering about, who are amongst Johnson's few remaining supporters. How quickly we forget that, by the time he was thrown out, his ratings weren't very much better than Truss's.

    For any Tory leader to win the next election, they are going to need to claw back the vast bulk of the huge flow of voters whose predilections have now swung directly from Conservative to Labour - and we've not even had most of the pain from the latest economic shockwave yet. The mortgage interest rate rises feeding through, the tax rises, the spending cuts, the collapsing public services. Basically, unless, in a shock plot twist, Keir Starmer is revealed quite literally to be Satan, the Tories are headed for opposition. The only question is how serious their defeat will be.

    I suspect in that scenario many voters would consider Satan the lesser of two evils

  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Like so many elements of TV news, vox pops were forever altered for me after The Day Today spoofed them so well.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    pigeon said:

    Vox pops in Bridgend on ITV Wales News was overwhelmingly Johnson. Interviewees were very skeptical of Labour and Starmer in particular.

    I may have read this all wrong and despite the scandals and the desperate economic situation, Johnson might pull another five years off against the run of play.

    Madness!

    Vox pops do not a properly conducted survey make. They probably went out on the streets looking for interviewees in the middle of the day, and found an assortment of confused elderly people and dangerous imbeciles wandering about, who are amongst Johnson's few remaining supporters. How quickly we forget that, by the time he was thrown out, his ratings weren't very much better than Truss's.

    For any Tory leader to win the next election, they are going to need to claw back the vast bulk of the huge flow of voters whose predilections have now swung directly from Conservative to Labour - and we've not even had most of the pain from the latest economic shockwave yet. The mortgage interest rate rises feeding through, the tax rises, the spending cuts, the collapsing public services. Basically, unless, in a shock plot twist, Keir Starmer is revealed quite literally to be Satan, the Tories are headed for opposition. The only question is how serious their defeat will be.

    I suspect in that scenario many voters would consider Satan the lesser of two evils

    He is at least more industrious than Johnson.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,053
    edited October 2022

    biggles said:

    I've got a feeling Boris won't run. It will be a repeat of 2016 when he'll judge that the mood of the parliamentary party isn't behind him and bow out.

    Agree. And I think he’ll endorse Rishi, and be given an Ukraine role and/or pick of safe seats. He’ll hang around and generally be Boris, and be a campaigning weapon in 2024.

    When/if they lose then, he’ll be back to reform the party around himself.
    Crazy thought - Boris as party chairman?
    I think “Ukraine Supremo” works better from him because it can be unpaid and outside of Gvt, allowing him to still make cash from speaking.

    If you wanted him in the tent more firmly (and he wanted to be in it as anything other than PM) I think you’d made him “Deputy PM and Minister for Ukraine with a coordinating role”. That way he gets to pretend some parity with Rishi.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    Eabhal said:

    BORIS IS ON A FLIGHT

    Where's he going then? He was supposed to be catching BA2156 from Antigua to LGW arriving 0930 tomorrow, departure scheduled for 0130 tomorrow BST.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    .

    Now playing The Temptations - Papa was a rolling stone - 11 min 44 sec album version.

    Could have been written for Boris.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71l85z2bXAs&list=RDMM&index=21

    He’s more of a rolling space hopper filled with custard.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited October 2022

    biggles said:

    I've got a feeling Boris won't run. It will be a repeat of 2016 when he'll judge that the mood of the parliamentary party isn't behind him and bow out.

    Agree. And I think he’ll endorse Rishi, and be given an Ukraine role and/or pick of safe seats. He’ll hang around and generally be Boris, and be a campaigning weapon in 2024.

    When/if they lose then, he’ll be back to reform the party around himself.
    Crazy thought - Boris as party chairman?
    I doubt he wants/would take any party/government job, with the possible exception of FS.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Now playing The Temptations - Papa was a rolling stone - 11 min 44 sec album version.

    Could have been written for Boris.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71l85z2bXAs&list=RDMM&index=21

    He’s more of a rolling space hopper filled with custard.
    Hell, what dreams I'm having tonight... Thanks a bunch.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    pigeon said:

    Officials will phone those members without an email over the weekend to urge them to add an email address to enable them to vote in the contest

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1583560721182642176

    Hahahaha anyone who has tried to assist an elderly relative with IT issues is currently laughing their colon inside out.

    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1583574131093929984

    Go for the lols and make them pay an administration fee in bitcoin to set up their email.
  • Garth! Are you one of those Tories for whom ONE vale just ain't enough?

    As you can see, am myself proud patron of TWO shanties! (But nary a pot to piss in.)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    I've got a feeling Boris won't run. It will be a repeat of 2016 when he'll judge that the mood of the parliamentary party isn't behind him and bow out.

    Agree. And I think he’ll endorse Rishi, and be given an Ukraine role and/or pick of safe seats. He’ll hang around and generally be Boris, and be a campaigning weapon in 2024.

    When/if they lose then, he’ll be back to reform the party around himself.
    Crazy thought - Boris as party chairman?
    I think “Ukraine Supremo” works better from him because it can be unpaid and outside of Gvt, allowing him to still make cash from speaking.

    If you wanted him in the tent more firmly (and he wanted to be in it as anything other than PM) I think you’d made him “Deputy PM and Minister for Ukraine with a coordinating role”. That way he gets to pretend some parity with Rishi.
    Chairman keeps his contact with the members/activists. Potential for damage is quite limited.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    edited October 2022
    DJ41 said:

    IanB2 said:

    nico679 said:

    IanB2 said:

    It does look like most of the MPs are going to put Rishi as far ahead as they can. Penny’s poor showing is disappointing, but she’ll throw her support behind Rishi on Monday morning and get a top job out of it.

    It doesn't matter how far ahead Sunak is unless Johnson fails to get 100.

    I’m not convinced this is a shoe in for Johnson if he makes the final two .

    I think the fact he’s still under investigation could be a big factor .
    It’s Sunak, trust me. Brady and co knew that when they announced the vote; the Cabinet knew that when they met at the Carlton Club. Johnson may not make the hundred, and if he does there will be the most intense pressure for him to withdraw and play ball.

    It’s obvious Sunak will top the MPs poll by miles. The Tories - as has everyone else - understand that Truss’s problem was not being the MPs’ choice. They won’t make that mistake again. All Brady’s comments about the member stage were carefully worded, hedged to indicate it may or may not happen, and they are relaxed about the logistics and practical problems because it’s not going to happen.

    Sunak will be PM Monday evening.
    What do you make of Paul Staines's "info" that declared (to him) support for the contenders among "whips, party board members, Tory vice chairs and 1922 chairmen who have to remain publicly neutral" is currently running at

    18 Johnson
    6 Sunak
    4 Mordaunt
    ?

    The entire group of the "must remain publicly neutral" can't number many more than 28 surely?
    The split of the group seems unduly skewed compared with the generality of other Tory MPs, and if their jobs require neutrality then telling Guido who they are backing seems a peculiar thing to do. And they’ve all declared already, while so many other MPs are still taking soundings? Plus we know Guido ramps for Johnson. So I am sceptical. He can’t be contradicted, after all?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,723

    pigeon said:

    Officials will phone those members without an email over the weekend to urge them to add an email address to enable them to vote in the contest

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1583560721182642176

    Hahahaha anyone who has tried to assist an elderly relative with IT issues is currently laughing their colon inside out.

    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1583574131093929984

    Go for the lols and make them pay an administration fee in bitcoin to set up their email.
    Suspect the old folks will be reached by Moscow before the CCHQ IT department get to them.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Bozo is only interested in being PM. Nothing else will satisfy his fat ego .

    The DM front page wanting him to team up with Sunak is ludicrous. Why on earth would Sunak who will very likely lead after the nominations close throw away his only chance to become PM to defenestrate himself and become Bozos gimp .

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,053
    IanB2 said:

    DJ41 said:

    IanB2 said:

    nico679 said:

    IanB2 said:

    It does look like most of the MPs are going to put Rishi as far ahead as they can. Penny’s poor showing is disappointing, but she’ll throw her support behind Rishi on Monday morning and get a top job out of it.

    It doesn't matter how far ahead Sunak is unless Johnson fails to get 100.

    I’m not convinced this is a shoe in for Johnson if he makes the final two .

    I think the fact he’s still under investigation could be a big factor .
    It’s Sunak, trust me. Brady and co knew that when they announced the vote; the Cabinet knew that when they met at the Carlton Club. Johnson may not make the hundred, and if he does there will be the most intense pressure for him to withdraw and play ball.

    It’s obvious Sunak will top the MPs poll by miles. The Tories - as has everyone else - understand that Truss’s problem was not being the MPs’ choice. They won’t make that mistake again. All Brady’s comments about the member stage were carefully worded, hedged to indicate it may or may not happen, and they are relaxed about the logistics and practical problems because it’s not going to happen.

    Sunak will be PM Monday evening.
    What do you make of Paul Staines's "info" that declared (to him) support for the contenders among "whips, party board members, Tory vice chairs and 1922 chairmen who have to remain publicly neutral" is currently running at

    18 Johnson
    6 Sunak
    4 Mordaunt
    ?

    The entire group of the "must remain publicly neutral" can't number many more than 28 surely?
    The split of the group seems unduly skewed compared with the generality of other Tory MPs, and if their jobs require neutrality then telling Guido who they are backing seems a peculiar thing to do. And they’ve all declared already, while so many other MPs are still taking soundings? Plus we know Guido ramps for Johnson. So I am sceptical.
    And as many have said, with the exception of the 1922 roles, those job titles make them Truss loyalists and so more likely Boris supporters than not.
  • biggles said:

    I've got a feeling Boris won't run. It will be a repeat of 2016 when he'll judge that the mood of the parliamentary party isn't behind him and bow out.

    Agree. And I think he’ll endorse Rishi, and be given an Ukraine role and/or pick of safe seats. He’ll hang around and generally be Boris, and be a campaigning weapon in 2024.

    When/if they lose then, he’ll be back to reform the party around himself.
    I think the Boris to the Home office rumour was nonsense but wonder if Boris could take a party chairman role. I guess it depends on the standards committee
    Extraordinary Ambassador to AND for Ukraine. With serious remit. That or nothing.

    In my humble AND foreign opinion.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    BORIS IS ON A FLIGHT

    Might be this: https://www.flightradar24.com/TOM157/2deeca26
    On a BA flight apparently.
    Perhaps this: https://www.flightradar24.com/BAW2156/2deed57a before it swings north
    Foxy mentioned Antigua.

    That is almost certainly the one I'd think.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited October 2022
    Boris Johnson pictured on his way back to the UK

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eGRuLfesiI

    Looks like cattle class....cheque for the speaking engagements must not have cleared yet.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,053
    edited October 2022
    nico679 said:

    Bozo is only interested in being PM. Nothing else will satisfy his fat ego .

    The DM front page wanting him to team up with Sunak is ludicrous. Why on earth would Sunak who will very likely lead after the nominations close throw away his only chance to become PM to defenestrate himself and become Bozos gimp .

    He wouldn’t. But if Boris decided not to stand then Sunak would definitely want his endorsement. Makes him PM by Monday lunchtime.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    .
    ydoethur said:

    pigeon said:

    Vox pops in Bridgend on ITV Wales News was overwhelmingly Johnson. Interviewees were very skeptical of Labour and Starmer in particular.

    I may have read this all wrong and despite the scandals and the desperate economic situation, Johnson might pull another five years off against the run of play.

    Madness!

    Vox pops do not a properly conducted survey make. They probably went out on the streets looking for interviewees in the middle of the day, and found an assortment of confused elderly people and dangerous imbeciles wandering about, who are amongst Johnson's few remaining supporters. How quickly we forget that, by the time he was thrown out, his ratings weren't very much better than Truss's.

    For any Tory leader to win the next election, they are going to need to claw back the vast bulk of the huge flow of voters whose predilections have now swung directly from Conservative to Labour - and we've not even had most of the pain from the latest economic shockwave yet. The mortgage interest rate rises feeding through, the tax rises, the spending cuts, the collapsing public services. Basically, unless, in a shock plot twist, Keir Starmer is revealed quite literally to be Satan, the Tories are headed for opposition. The only question is how serious their defeat will be.

    I suspect in that scenario many voters would consider Satan the lesser of two evils

    He is at least more industrious than Johnson.
    Notorious rebel against authority, the father of lies….
    There’s a certain resemblance.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    nico679 said:

    Bozo is only interested in being PM. Nothing else will satisfy his fat ego .

    The DM front page wanting him to team up with Sunak is ludicrous. Why on earth would Sunak who will very likely lead after the nominations close throw away his only chance to become PM to defenestrate himself and become Bozos gimp .

    The other thing for Rishi is what do you do if you got overlooked not just once but twice? Do you go, third time's the charm, or do you go, sod this for a game of soldiers?
  • Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    I've got a feeling Boris won't run. It will be a repeat of 2016 when he'll judge that the mood of the parliamentary party isn't behind him and bow out.

    Can Gove go for a two-fer?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,053
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    pigeon said:

    Vox pops in Bridgend on ITV Wales News was overwhelmingly Johnson. Interviewees were very skeptical of Labour and Starmer in particular.

    I may have read this all wrong and despite the scandals and the desperate economic situation, Johnson might pull another five years off against the run of play.

    Madness!

    Vox pops do not a properly conducted survey make. They probably went out on the streets looking for interviewees in the middle of the day, and found an assortment of confused elderly people and dangerous imbeciles wandering about, who are amongst Johnson's few remaining supporters. How quickly we forget that, by the time he was thrown out, his ratings weren't very much better than Truss's.

    For any Tory leader to win the next election, they are going to need to claw back the vast bulk of the huge flow of voters whose predilections have now swung directly from Conservative to Labour - and we've not even had most of the pain from the latest economic shockwave yet. The mortgage interest rate rises feeding through, the tax rises, the spending cuts, the collapsing public services. Basically, unless, in a shock plot twist, Keir Starmer is revealed quite literally to be Satan, the Tories are headed for opposition. The only question is how serious their defeat will be.

    I suspect in that scenario many voters would consider Satan the lesser of two evils

    He is at least more industrious than Johnson.
    Notorious rebel against authority, the father of lies….
    There’s a certain resemblance.
    Satan could presumably supply the country with cheap heating easily. I’d vote for him on that basis.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    pigeon said:

    Vox pops in Bridgend on ITV Wales News was overwhelmingly Johnson. Interviewees were very skeptical of Labour and Starmer in particular.

    I may have read this all wrong and despite the scandals and the desperate economic situation, Johnson might pull another five years off against the run of play.

    Madness!

    Vox pops do not a properly conducted survey make. They probably went out on the streets looking for interviewees in the middle of the day, and found an assortment of confused elderly people and dangerous imbeciles wandering about, who are amongst Johnson's few remaining supporters. How quickly we forget that, by the time he was thrown out, his ratings weren't very much better than Truss's.

    For any Tory leader to win the next election, they are going to need to claw back the vast bulk of the huge flow of voters whose predilections have now swung directly from Conservative to Labour - and we've not even had most of the pain from the latest economic shockwave yet. The mortgage interest rate rises feeding through, the tax rises, the spending cuts, the collapsing public services. Basically, unless, in a shock plot twist, Keir Starmer is revealed quite literally to be Satan, the Tories are headed for opposition. The only question is how serious their defeat will be.

    I suspect in that scenario many voters would consider Satan the lesser of two evils

    He is at least more industrious than Johnson.
    Notorious rebel against authority, the father of lies….
    There’s a certain resemblance.
    Tells people they can have whatever they want without adverse consequences?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,723
    nico679 said:

    Bozo is only interested in being PM. Nothing else will satisfy his fat ego .

    The DM front page wanting him to team up with Sunak is ludicrous. Why on earth would Sunak who will very likely lead after the nominations close throw away his only chance to become PM to defenestrate himself and become Bozos gimp .

    Times reporting same. "Senior" figures trying to broker a deal.

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    Bozo is only interested in being PM. Nothing else will satisfy his fat ego .

    The DM front page wanting him to team up with Sunak is ludicrous. Why on earth would Sunak who will very likely lead after the nominations close throw away his only chance to become PM to defenestrate himself and become Bozos gimp .

    He wouldn’t. But if Boris decided not to stand then Sunak would definitely want his endorsement. Makes him PM by Monday lunchtime.
    There’s no chance of him getting that anyway given Johnson blames him for the VONC. I doubt many of Johnson’s supporters would follow a Johnson recommendation given they see Sunak as Judas .
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Dream on! The LibDems? You'd have buyers remorse before the exit poll!
  • RunDeepRunDeep Posts: 77
    Have Tory MPs forgotten that before he resigned Boris admitted to meeting a KGB spy, without officials present, without informing the civil service of the meeting and that he could not confirm that state matters had not been discussed?

    These facts alone should stop him being a candidate.

  • Garth! Are you one of those Tories for whom ONE vale just ain't enough?

    As you can see, am myself proud patron of TWO shanties! (But nary a pot to piss in.)

    Ha. Yes, I think I was GarethoftheVale and then had log in issues so become the 2nd one.

    Ironically the "Vale" was the Vale of White Horse but I haven't lived there for 8 years now. Was told changing username was a lot of work for the mods.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    Boris Johnson pictured on his way back to the UK

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eGRuLfesiI

    Looks like cattle class....cheque for the speaking engagements must not have cleared yet.

    Might not have been any first or business available.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited October 2022
    Totally O/T - This was definitely me back in the day at family gathering...

    Explaining your PhD project to your family
    https://twitter.com/schumacherbj/status/1583366382082985984

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    nico679 said:

    Bozo is only interested in being PM. Nothing else will satisfy his fat ego .

    The DM front page wanting him to team up with Sunak is ludicrous. Why on earth would Sunak who will very likely lead after the nominations close throw away his only chance to become PM to defenestrate himself and become Bozos gimp .

    Times reporting same. "Senior" figures trying to broker a deal.

    Broker what sort of deal . Johnson would only accept PM .
  • Pulpstar said:

    Boris Johnson pictured on his way back to the UK

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eGRuLfesiI

    Looks like cattle class....cheque for the speaking engagements must not have cleared yet.

    Might not have been any first or business available.
    Don't they know who he is ;-)
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,053
    edited October 2022
    nico679 said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    Bozo is only interested in being PM. Nothing else will satisfy his fat ego .

    The DM front page wanting him to team up with Sunak is ludicrous. Why on earth would Sunak who will very likely lead after the nominations close throw away his only chance to become PM to defenestrate himself and become Bozos gimp .

    He wouldn’t. But if Boris decided not to stand then Sunak would definitely want his endorsement. Makes him PM by Monday lunchtime.
    There’s no chance of him getting that anyway given Johnson blames him for the VONC. I doubt many of Johnson’s supporters would follow a Johnson recommendation given they see Sunak as Judas .
    Put yourself in his place though. If you start to think Sunak might win anyway, why not pull out, endorse him, and try to take credit for it?

    You were planning to spend a few more years inflating your bank balance anyway, and you’d be a shoe in to replace him if he loses in ‘24, at which point the Labour administration is likely to be quite weak and could fall quickly.

    You can make Sunak’s life a bit easier with the members, for which at the very least he’ll enable you to more easily switch seats, which makes that 2024 possibility more feasible.

    Everyone gets something they want.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited October 2022
    ping said:

    biggles said:

    I've got a feeling Boris won't run. It will be a repeat of 2016 when he'll judge that the mood of the parliamentary party isn't behind him and bow out.

    Agree. And I think he’ll endorse Rishi, and be given an Ukraine role and/or pick of safe seats. He’ll hang around and generally be Boris, and be a campaigning weapon in 2024.

    When/if they lose then, he’ll be back to reform the party around himself.
    Crazy thought - Boris as party chairman?
    I doubt he wants/would take any party/government job, with the possible exception of FS.
    Agreed. He wouldn't have enough sense to be Business Sec, ChEx, or something at the CabOff (he'd soon break something important), nobody would want him at Defence, and he wouldn't want to have his face rubbed in it at the HO, Educayshun, or as LOTH etc.

    I wonder if he might win Penny over somehow. Some (not all) aspects of "war on woke" may be of little importance come election time even if they work well in the gutter press attracting eyeballs now. E.g. if he lets a refugee boat sink with heavy loss of life he'll be a hero in the Alf Garnett market even if he appeared at an LGBTQ gig the day before.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    ….
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited October 2022

    Now playing The Temptations - Papa was a rolling stone - 11 min 44 sec album version.

    Could have been written for Boris.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71l85z2bXAs&list=RDMM&index=21

    Yes, Bojo was a wicked cuss
    He lied & cried but still went bust
    And when he split from No. 10
    All he left us was his Truss
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
  • I would have thought in Boris mind, the great Churchillian return is too soon....the world / Tory party needs to burn for a few years first (plus he could really do with some reddies).
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259

    Pro_Rata said:

    Sunak needs to be the Quorn commentator puppet pig of this contest, mellifluously ooking the Tory members in the eyes and going "Forget about the alternative, Patricia"

    (FPT)

    Sunak is a bit like a meat substitute. It portrays itself as a healthier alternative, but when you actually look at it, it's completely empty of all nutritive value.
    Yes. but you believe in the nutritional value of red earth dust so your judgement is questionable
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259
    dixiedean said:

    IanB2 said:

    Liz Truss merchandise going on eBay…snap it up while stocks last!

    Stuff to keep with your Consignia mug….


    Cheap and highly effective birth control.
    I agree. Man buns are hideous
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259

    dixiedean said:

    IanB2 said:

    Liz Truss merchandise going on eBay…snap it up while stocks last!

    Stuff to keep with your Consignia mug….


    Cheap and highly effective birth control.
    According to (Finnish?) reports, the reproductive entrance was not really her thing?
    Is that Finnish in the sense of “rear end” or the country? Not sure if you had an autocorrect fail or not
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    ….
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259

    Sunak needs a big majority of MPs and buy off Bozo with a big Ukraine related role - Tsar special envoy or some such, give him something to do that he is actually passable at. Then can we please have a couple boring months of stable government with occasional Mark Francois baiting

    Pretty please. Pretty pretty please.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    nico679 said:

    biggles said:

    nico679 said:

    Bozo is only interested in being PM. Nothing else will satisfy his fat ego .

    The DM front page wanting him to team up with Sunak is ludicrous. Why on earth would Sunak who will very likely lead after the nominations close throw away his only chance to become PM to defenestrate himself and become Bozos gimp .

    He wouldn’t. But if Boris decided not to stand then Sunak would definitely want his endorsement. Makes him PM by Monday lunchtime.
    There’s no chance of him getting that anyway given Johnson blames him for the VONC. I doubt many of Johnson’s supporters would follow a Johnson recommendation given they see Sunak as Judas .
    So it’s Judas vs Satan in 2024 I guess

  • RunDeep said:

    Have Tory MPs forgotten that before he resigned Boris admitted to meeting a KGB spy, without officials present, without informing the civil service of the meeting and that he could not confirm that state matters had not been discussed?

    These facts alone should stop him being a candidate.

    He is a 'cult' figure in the same mould as Corbyn and both are doing or did terrible damage to their parties
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904
    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    A gross simplification, Mr Pigeon, straight out of the Conservative Central Office prompt book.

    Even so, if you contrast it with the current Conservative offering of arrogance, greed, selfishness, incompetence, cronyism and corruption, the Lib Dem offering does look tempting.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Sky News reporter Mark Stone, who is on the flight with Boris Johnson back from the Dominican Republic to Gatwick, said that Johnson was booed by passengers as he boarded.

    https://twitter.com/HarryTaylr/status/1583581325768167424
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    There’s rather more to it than that, as you would have seen during coalition, but being as we are in à FPTP system where minor parties generally have no opportunity to enact meaningful policy the Lib Dems have to scrap for every seat they can get, and hope for a more democratic system some day.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited October 2022

    Pro_Rata said:

    Sunak needs to be the Quorn commentator puppet pig of this contest, mellifluously ooking the Tory members in the eyes and going "Forget about the alternative, Patricia"

    (FPT)

    Sunak is a bit like a meat substitute. It portrays itself as a healthier alternative, but when you actually look at it, it's completely empty of all nutritive value.
    Funny how vegetarians tend to live so much longer than flesheaters then.
    Raw soya is 36% protein.
    His vegetarianism is one of the things I like about Rishi Sunak. Same goes for Jeremy Corbyn.

    Who do you think has the healthier diet - Rishi Sunak or Boris Johnson?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Sky News reporter Mark Stone, who is on the flight with Boris Johnson back from the Dominican Republic to Gatwick, said that Johnson was booed by passengers as he boarded.

    https://twitter.com/HarryTaylr/status/1583581325768167424

    But someone in a south Wales town at 2pm on a weekday told the BBC he was a good ‘un
  • I would have thought in Boris mind, the great Churchillian return is too soon....the world / Tory party needs to burn for a few years first (plus he could really do with some reddies).

    Churchill used his time own (as Leader of the Opposition) to write his WW2 memoirs, for fun, profit AND his own historical record and reputation.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited October 2022

    Sky News reporter Mark Stone, who is on the flight with Boris Johnson back from the Dominican Republic to Gatwick, said that Johnson was booed by passengers as he boarded.

    https://twitter.com/HarryTaylr/status/1583581325768167424

    The actual full quote isn't really that interesting. That tweet makes it sound like the whole plane stood up and booed. Instead the quote from Mark Stone is one or two, so sounds like a couple of people did.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Still reeling from Wallace's intervention. What on earth was he thinking? Can so many people truly think a return to what precipitated this crisis is a solution?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    Sky News reporter Mark Stone, who is on the flight with Boris Johnson back from the Dominican Republic to Gatwick, said that Johnson was booed by passengers as he boarded.

    https://twitter.com/HarryTaylr/status/1583581325768167424

    The actual full quote isn't really that interesting. That tweet makes it sound like the whole plane stood up and booed. Instead the quote from Mark Stone is one or two, so sounds like a couple of people did.
    Maybe they were just asking for some booze for the flight.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited October 2022

    I would have thought in Boris mind, the great Churchillian return is too soon....the world / Tory party needs to burn for a few years first (plus he could really do with some reddies).

    Churchill used his time own (as Leader of the Opposition) to write his WW2 memoirs, for fun, profit AND his own historical record and reputation.

    I would imagine Boris is thinking more of "wilderness years" of the 30s, where he warned of the rise of Nazism, leading to the big comeback to help save the world.
  • biggles said:

    biggles said:

    I've got a feeling Boris won't run. It will be a repeat of 2016 when he'll judge that the mood of the parliamentary party isn't behind him and bow out.

    Agree. And I think he’ll endorse Rishi, and be given an Ukraine role and/or pick of safe seats. He’ll hang around and generally be Boris, and be a campaigning weapon in 2024.

    When/if they lose then, he’ll be back to reform the party around himself.
    Crazy thought - Boris as party chairman?
    I think “Ukraine Supremo” works better from him because it can be unpaid and outside of Gvt, allowing him to still make cash from speaking.

    I
    So long as it is not "Ukraine Tsar".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Sky News reporter Mark Stone, who is on the flight with Boris Johnson back from the Dominican Republic to Gatwick, said that Johnson was booed by passengers as he boarded.

    https://twitter.com/HarryTaylr/status/1583581325768167424

    Probably global elite citizens of nowhere.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited October 2022
    kle4 said:

    Still reeling from Wallace's intervention. What on earth was he thinking? Can so many people truly think a return to what precipitated this crisis is a solution?

    Well he really doesn't like Sunak (because of perceived lack of support of Ukraine)...but leaning into to idea of PM Boris, Die Harder, absolutely bonkers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    Tom Tugendhat backs Sunak having ultimately backed Truss last time after his leadership campaign ended

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1583560749955584001?s=20&t=XYqBBn4lRvPtCCMvBmNDiQ
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    For the Orange Book LDs it does
  • timpletimple Posts: 123
    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    There’s rather more to it than that, as you would have seen during coalition, but being as we are in à FPTP system where minor parties generally have no opportunity to enact meaningful policy the Lib Dems have to scrap for every seat they can get, and hope for a more democratic system some day.
    From a systems thinking point of view you can make an argument that the current system we have for apportioning power (FPTP) is suboptimal and produces the negative outcomes we all bemoan in these comment pages as the rational actors in the system play the game they find themselves in. The jolly good chaps of the post war era are gone and we are now seeing how FPTP works unchecked by moral values. So electoral reform is the prerequisite for making the first steps to systematically sort our problems. (And of course it would help smaller parties, so yes there is self interest too)
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited October 2022
    Not many Penny backers around.

    She’s out to ~15/1

    Sunak 4/6
    Boris 2/1
    Starmer 90/1
  • What constitutes a nomination by a Tory MP in the leadup to choice of finalists?

    When Guido puts them on his spreadsheet? Or some more formal procedure? And can members remove or change their nomination before 2pm Mon deadline?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Anyway the hustings are going to be very interesting as Johnson tries to wriggle out of the privileges committee, his partygate and above all else his lies as rest assured these are coming at hi like an express train

    It's worth the MPs remembering Boris only wants to be leader so they can defend him. The members dont care about that but they should.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    If Johnson decides not to stand, who would he be most likely to support?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    If it’s not obvious to the majority of non ERG headbangers, Sunak will likely provide some stability that the country so sorely needs

    If they continue with this Boris love in, the tories deserve to be out of power for generations

    For some bizarre reason they have fixated on Boris over the party, even though Boris is no cast iron head banger.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited October 2022

    What constitutes a nomination by a Tory MP in the leadup to choice of finalists?

    When Guido puts them on his spreadsheet? Or some more formal procedure? And can members remove or change their nomination before 2pm Mon deadline?

    Yes. Numbers are just based on Twitter posts/media comments etc and compiled by journalists/supporters of each candidate.

    As has been pointed out many times before, this is the worlds most sophisticated and duplicitous electorate. Exercise extreme caution with regards to all reports of the numbers of supporters for any candidate.

    You cannot take any nomination as guaranteed until Graham Brady’s announcement, following the vote at 2pm on Monday.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Sunak needs a big majority of MPs and buy off Bozo with a big Ukraine related role - special envoy or some such, give him something to do that he is actually passable at. Then can we please have a couple boring months of stable government with occasional Mark Francois baiting

    An actually useful job for an ex PM to boot.
  • Re: Ben Wallace & Boris, perhaps the most Wallace-friendly way to look at his endorsement, is that he is strongly signalling to Sunak that IF he get the brass ring, he MUST back UKR and not bean count on this front.

    Because Wallace is gonna be Defense Secretary, regardless of who is next PM. Unless he refuses or later resigns, over the PM's commitment to UKR. Think that's the dynamic.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,872
    It really doesnt matter which party makes the next governement. They are all shit. We are heading towards borrowing so much all our grandchildren will be just about paying enough tax to pay the debt interest. The longer parties, and they are all at it continue the sham that social democracy is affordable the sooner we get to the point.

    I hate the fact our grand children will be paying huge taxes and get nothing in return. Labour , Tories and lib dems should be ashamed
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Andy_JS said:

    If Johnson decides not to stand, who would he be most likely to support?

    Privately or publicly? I suspect he'd pretend to want to keep out of it publicly. Who hed support privately would depend if he could be bought off with a role from Sunak, otherwise support anyone but Sunak.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917

    kle4 said:

    Still reeling from Wallace's intervention. What on earth was he thinking? Can so many people truly think a return to what precipitated this crisis is a solution?

    Well he really doesn't like Sunak (because of perceived lack of support of Ukraine)...but leaning into to idea of PM Boris, Die Harder, absolutely bonkers.
    Might it be that Wallace is simply picking the candidate who he thinks will do best by his department? Boris backed him on upping the defence budget and is quite keen on all that, Sunak is seen as being prepared to keep defence spending at its most minimal level, though he could reasonably argue he's changed his mind post-Ukraine.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    timple said:

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    There’s rather more to it than that, as you would have seen during coalition, but being as we are in à FPTP system where minor parties generally have no opportunity to enact meaningful policy the Lib Dems have to scrap for every seat they can get, and hope for a more democratic system some day.
    From a systems thinking point of view you can make an argument that the current system we have for apportioning power (FPTP) is suboptimal and produces the negative outcomes we all bemoan in these comment pages as the rational actors in the system play the game they find themselves in. The jolly good chaps of the post war era are gone and we are now seeing how FPTP works unchecked by moral values. So electoral reform is the prerequisite for making the first steps to systematically sort our problems. (And of course it would help smaller parties, so yes there is self interest too)
    No electoral system is perfect and electoral reform would not solve all out our political problems. But I'd agree it would be a good start.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited October 2022

    kle4 said:

    Still reeling from Wallace's intervention. What on earth was he thinking? Can so many people truly think a return to what precipitated this crisis is a solution?

    Well he really doesn't like Sunak (because of perceived lack of support of Ukraine)...but leaning into to idea of PM Boris, Die Harder, absolutely bonkers.
    Might it be that Wallace is simply picking the candidate who he thinks will do best by his department? Boris backed him on upping the defence budget and is quite keen on all that, Sunak is seen as being prepared to keep defence spending at its most minimal level, though he could reasonably argue he's changed his mind post-Ukraine.
    If I was Wallace, I would privately ask for assurance from Sunak that money would be forthcoming and that if it reneged on that he would resign and that would cause mayhem....and stay out of the Boris drama.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Still find the anonymous backer indication both unhelpful and bullshit. I know it's just a pundits list, but either he's making it up or a bunch of people who are not supposed to publicly declare are telling him and given how few they are would in effect be publicly declaring for a bunch of them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If Johnson decides not to stand, who would he be most likely to support?

    Privately or publicly? I suspect he'd pretend to want to keep out of it publicly. Who hed support privately would depend if he could be bought off with a role from Sunak, otherwise support anyone but Sunak.
    Both. I assumed he would be more likely to support Mordaunt but not sure.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,872
    kle4 said:

    timple said:

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    There’s rather more to it than that, as you would have seen during coalition, but being as we are in à FPTP system where minor parties generally have no opportunity to enact meaningful policy the Lib Dems have to scrap for every seat they can get, and hope for a more democratic system some day.
    From a systems thinking point of view you can make an argument that the current system we have for apportioning power (FPTP) is suboptimal and produces the negative outcomes we all bemoan in these comment pages as the rational actors in the system play the game they find themselves in. The jolly good chaps of the post war era are gone and we are now seeing how FPTP works unchecked by moral values. So electoral reform is the prerequisite for making the first steps to systematically sort our problems. (And of course it would help smaller parties, so yes there is self interest too)
    No electoral system is perfect and electoral reform would not solve all out our political problems. But I'd agree it would be a good start.
    PR will cement centralist social democracy which will lead to bankruptcy. It will also lead to a democractic deficit when people refuse to vote because they would prefer to know what they are actually voting for rather than cast a vote and then politicians in smoky rooms decide what they voted for and then claim a mandate for it they never had. I cite the 2010 to 2015 years. I voted tory.....if I knew what the coalition would decide they had a mandate for I would have voted against
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    timple said:

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    There’s rather more to it than that, as you would have seen during coalition, but being as we are in à FPTP system where minor parties generally have no opportunity to enact meaningful policy the Lib Dems have to scrap for every seat they can get, and hope for a more democratic system some day.
    From a systems thinking point of view you can make an argument that the current system we have for apportioning power (FPTP) is suboptimal and produces the negative outcomes we all bemoan in these comment pages as the rational actors in the system play the game they find themselves in. The jolly good chaps of the post war era are gone and we are now seeing how FPTP works unchecked by moral values. So electoral reform is the prerequisite for making the first steps to systematically sort our problems. (And of course it would help smaller parties, so yes there is self interest too)
    No electoral system is perfect and electoral reform would not solve all out our political problems. But I'd agree it would be a good start.
    PR will cement centralist social democracy which will lead to bankruptcy. It will also lead to a democractic deficit when people refuse to vote because they would prefer to know what they are actually voting for rather than cast a vote and then politicians in smoky rooms decide what they voted for and then claim a mandate for it they never had. I cite the 2010 to 2015 years. I voted tory.....if I knew what the coalition would decide they had a mandate for I would have voted against
    I voted hoping for a coalition. I had no way of indicating that as my preference sadly.

    But my point wasnt the precise form the electoral reform takes, but that plenty of improvements could be made in that sphere. I'd be happy with some form of PR but there are other matters too. The Tories have not been above making changes.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    edited October 2022
    kle4 said:

    Still find the anonymous backer indication both unhelpful and bullshit. I know it's just a pundits list, but either he's making it up or a bunch of people who are not supposed to publicly declare are telling him and given how few they are would in effect be publicly declaring for a bunch of them.

    Whips, CCHQ, Party board

    Guido redacted it further.

    Guido is obviously on team Boris (Probably for commercial reasons since he'll drive more traffic across order-order) but his spreadsheet is a good resource.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    kle4 said:

    Still reeling from Wallace's intervention. What on earth was he thinking? Can so many people truly think a return to what precipitated this crisis is a solution?

    Well he really doesn't like Sunak (because of perceived lack of support of Ukraine)...but leaning into to idea of PM Boris, Die Harder, absolutely bonkers.
    Might it be that Wallace is simply picking the candidate who he thinks will do best by his department? Boris backed him on upping the defence budget and is quite keen on all that, Sunak is seen as being prepared to keep defence spending at its most minimal level, though he could reasonably argue he's changed his mind post-Ukraine.
    He should think about the country. Can we afford what he wants even at the level promised? I doubt it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Still find the anonymous backer indication both unhelpful and bullshit. I know it's just a pundits list, but either he's making it up or a bunch of people who are not supposed to publicly declare are telling him and given how few they are would in effect be publicly declaring for a bunch of them.

    Whips, CCHQ, Party board

    Guido redacted it further.
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Still find the anonymous backer indication both unhelpful and bullshit. I know it's just a pundits list, but either he's making it up or a bunch of people who are not supposed to publicly declare are telling him and given how few they are would in effect be publicly declaring for a bunch of them.

    Whips, CCHQ, Party board

    Guido redacted it further.
    Yes, and telling us so many of them back Boris over Sunak is designed to impact the contest, the thing they claim they shouldn't do.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Still reeling from Wallace's intervention. What on earth was he thinking? Can so many people truly think a return to what precipitated this crisis is a solution?

    Well he really doesn't like Sunak (because of perceived lack of support of Ukraine)...but leaning into to idea of PM Boris, Die Harder, absolutely bonkers.
    Might it be that Wallace is simply picking the candidate who he thinks will do best by his department? Boris backed him on upping the defence budget and is quite keen on all that, Sunak is seen as being prepared to keep defence spending at its most minimal level, though he could reasonably argue he's changed his mind post-Ukraine.
    He should think about the country. Can we afford what he wants even at the level promised? I doubt it.
    As Pitt the Elder - and also Pitt the Younger - famously said (I think) "Can we afford not to do it?"
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,872
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    timple said:

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    There’s rather more to it than that, as you would have seen during coalition, but being as we are in à FPTP system where minor parties generally have no opportunity to enact meaningful policy the Lib Dems have to scrap for every seat they can get, and hope for a more democratic system some day.
    From a systems thinking point of view you can make an argument that the current system we have for apportioning power (FPTP) is suboptimal and produces the negative outcomes we all bemoan in these comment pages as the rational actors in the system play the game they find themselves in. The jolly good chaps of the post war era are gone and we are now seeing how FPTP works unchecked by moral values. So electoral reform is the prerequisite for making the first steps to systematically sort our problems. (And of course it would help smaller parties, so yes there is self interest too)
    No electoral system is perfect and electoral reform would not solve all out our political problems. But I'd agree it would be a good start.
    PR will cement centralist social democracy which will lead to bankruptcy. It will also lead to a democractic deficit when people refuse to vote because they would prefer to know what they are actually voting for rather than cast a vote and then politicians in smoky rooms decide what they voted for and then claim a mandate for it they never had. I cite the 2010 to 2015 years. I voted tory.....if I knew what the coalition would decide they had a mandate for I would have voted against
    I voted hoping for a coalition. I had no way of indicating that as my preference sadly.

    But my point wasnt the precise form the electoral reform takes, but that plenty of improvements could be made in that sphere. I'd be happy with some form of PR but there are other matters too. The Tories have not been above making changes.
    If I had known it would have been a ld/con coalition and what they would choose I would have either voted differently or not bothered. Indeed I haven't voted since despite having voted in every general and local election up to that point. The coalition showed me my vote is worthless. They took it and counted as a mandate despite the fact I despised everything they did. If they had stood on what they planned to do my vote would have been for anyone but them
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Penny Mordaunt must be really hacked off that Johnson looks like running .

    She was probably nailed on to make the last two so when she gets knocked out it’s not a given that she’ll endorse Johnson .

    Johnson did of course sack her from the Defence brief a few years ago so I don’t think she’s his biggest fan .

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,872

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    timple said:

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    There’s rather more to it than that, as you would have seen during coalition, but being as we are in à FPTP system where minor parties generally have no opportunity to enact meaningful policy the Lib Dems have to scrap for every seat they can get, and hope for a more democratic system some day.
    From a systems thinking point of view you can make an argument that the current system we have for apportioning power (FPTP) is suboptimal and produces the negative outcomes we all bemoan in these comment pages as the rational actors in the system play the game they find themselves in. The jolly good chaps of the post war era are gone and we are now seeing how FPTP works unchecked by moral values. So electoral reform is the prerequisite for making the first steps to systematically sort our problems. (And of course it would help smaller parties, so yes there is self interest too)
    No electoral system is perfect and electoral reform would not solve all out our political problems. But I'd agree it would be a good start.
    PR will cement centralist social democracy which will lead to bankruptcy. It will also lead to a democractic deficit when people refuse to vote because they would prefer to know what they are actually voting for rather than cast a vote and then politicians in smoky rooms decide what they voted for and then claim a mandate for it they never had. I cite the 2010 to 2015 years. I voted tory.....if I knew what the coalition would decide they had a mandate for I would have voted against
    I voted hoping for a coalition. I had no way of indicating that as my preference sadly.

    But my point wasnt the precise form the electoral reform takes, but that plenty of improvements could be made in that sphere. I'd be happy with some form of PR but there are other matters too. The Tories have not been above making changes.
    If I had known it would have been a ld/con coalition and what they would choose I would have either voted differently or not bothered. Indeed I haven't voted since despite having voted in every general and local election up to that point. The coalition showed me my vote is worthless. They took it and counted as a mandate despite the fact I despised everything they did. If they had stood on what they planned to do my vote would have been for anyone but them
    The Coalition looks like a bastion of sense and good governance versus what the country's had in the 7 years since. Those halcyon days of Dave and Nick in the rose garden....

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    timple said:

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    Bizarre tweet from Tobias Ellwood. Apparently "the free market experiment is over".

    @Tobias_Ellwood
    The free mkt experiment is over - it’s been a low point in our Party’s great history.

    The reset begins.

    Time for centrist, stable, fiscally responsible Government offering credible domestic & international leadership.

    Honoured to be the 100th Tory MP to support #Ready4Rishi


    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1583560922139791361

    Kind of matches what I think about Rishi to be Frank.

    I think I've cast my last Tory vote. If the Tories won't stand up for free markets and aspiration, hopefully Davey's party will.
    Hahahahahahahaha!

    The Lib Dem platform is basically electoral reform, electoral reform, electoral reform, nimbyism, and electoral reform. With a bit of nimbyism, and perhaps some residual Europhilia. I remain to be convinced that the writings of Milton Friedman figure particularly highly on their book club list.
    There’s rather more to it than that, as you would have seen during coalition, but being as we are in à FPTP system where minor parties generally have no opportunity to enact meaningful policy the Lib Dems have to scrap for every seat they can get, and hope for a more democratic system some day.
    From a systems thinking point of view you can make an argument that the current system we have for apportioning power (FPTP) is suboptimal and produces the negative outcomes we all bemoan in these comment pages as the rational actors in the system play the game they find themselves in. The jolly good chaps of the post war era are gone and we are now seeing how FPTP works unchecked by moral values. So electoral reform is the prerequisite for making the first steps to systematically sort our problems. (And of course it would help smaller parties, so yes there is self interest too)
    No electoral system is perfect and electoral reform would not solve all out our political problems. But I'd agree it would be a good start.
    PR will cement centralist social democracy which will lead to bankruptcy. It will also lead to a democractic deficit when people refuse to vote because they would prefer to know what they are actually voting for rather than cast a vote and then politicians in smoky rooms decide what they voted for and then claim a mandate for it they never had. I cite the 2010 to 2015 years. I voted tory.....if I knew what the coalition would decide they had a mandate for I would have voted against
    I voted hoping for a coalition. I had no way of indicating that as my preference sadly.

    But my point wasnt the precise form the electoral reform takes, but that plenty of improvements could be made in that sphere. I'd be happy with some form of PR but there are other matters too. The Tories have not been above making changes.
    If I had known it would have been a ld/con coalition and what they would choose I would have either voted differently or not bothered. Indeed I haven't voted since despite having voted in every general and local election up to that point. The coalition showed me my vote is worthless. They took it and counted as a mandate despite the fact I despised everything they did. If they had stood on what they planned to do my vote would have been for anyone but them
    The Coalition looks like a bastion of sense and good governance versus what the country's had in the 7 years since. Those halcyon days of Dave and Nick in the rose garden....
    No the coalition was a bunch of leftist twats.
  • nico679 said:

    Penny Mordaunt must be really hacked off that Johnson looks like running .

    She was probably nailed on to make the last two so when she gets knocked out it’s not a given that she’ll endorse Johnson .

    Johnson did of course sack her from the Defence brief a few years ago so I don’t think she’s his biggest fan .

    I expect Penny to endorse Rishi and she is heading for promotion anyway
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,872

    nico679 said:

    Penny Mordaunt must be really hacked off that Johnson looks like running .

    She was probably nailed on to make the last two so when she gets knocked out it’s not a given that she’ll endorse Johnson .

    Johnson did of course sack her from the Defence brief a few years ago so I don’t think she’s his biggest fan .

    I expect Penny to endorse Rishi and she is heading for promotion anyway
    Wow the unelectable endorsing the never should be elected.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    nico679 said:

    Penny Mordaunt must be really hacked off that Johnson looks like running .

    She was probably nailed on to make the last two so when she gets knocked out it’s not a given that she’ll endorse Johnson .

    Johnson did of course sack her from the Defence brief a few years ago so I don’t think she’s his biggest fan .

    I expect Penny to endorse Rishi and she is heading for promotion anyway
    Maybe Sunak would promise her Home Secretary or Foreign Security .
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    Off-topic: how will Just Stop Oil respond to the deaths on the M20 today, in which the delay caused to ambulance response may have been a contributory factor?

    Extinction Rebellion have previously justified obstructing patients on their way to surgery in hospital by explaining, "We're sorry, but there's a war on", i.e. it's our planet we're fighting for, plebface.

    "If, for example, it would somehow serve our interests to throw sulphuric acid in a child's face - are you prepared to do that?"
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    It can't be Johnson if the Tories want stability for both themselves and the country. Veteran MP Roger Gale has already said he would resign the whip if Johnson wins, and there could be others.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Still reeling from Wallace's intervention. What on earth was he thinking? Can so many people truly think a return to what precipitated this crisis is a solution?

    Well he really doesn't like Sunak (because of perceived lack of support of Ukraine)...but leaning into to idea of PM Boris, Die Harder, absolutely bonkers.
    Might it be that Wallace is simply picking the candidate who he thinks will do best by his department? Boris backed him on upping the defence budget and is quite keen on all that, Sunak is seen as being prepared to keep defence spending at its most minimal level, though he could reasonably argue he's changed his mind post-Ukraine.
    He should think about the country. Can we afford what he wants even at the level promised? I doubt it.
    As Pitt the Elder - and also Pitt the Younger - famously said (I think) "Can we afford not to do it?"
    Yes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Penny Mordaunt must be really hacked off that Johnson looks like running .

    She was probably nailed on to make the last two so when she gets knocked out it’s not a given that she’ll endorse Johnson .

    Johnson did of course sack her from the Defence brief a few years ago so I don’t think she’s his biggest fan .

    I expect Penny to endorse Rishi and she is heading for promotion anyway
    Maybe Sunak would promise her Home Secretary or Foreign Security .
    They should have cut a deal the instant it looked like Boris was standing, cut him off immediately.
  • If Boris does win again I wonder if he will want to redecorate....
  • OK, what's YOUR nomination . . . for Boris & Carries in-flight movie? Here's mine:

    "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad World"
  • If Boris does win again I wonder if he will want to redecorate....

    The Bamford's would be changing their phone number immediately....
This discussion has been closed.