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Has Campbell got this right – Hunt’s now PM in all but name – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,616
edited November 2022 in General
Has Campbell got this right – Hunt’s now PM in all but name – politicalbetting.com

How many times on his long media round this morning did Jeremy Hunt say something positive about Truss? She is no longer the Prime Minister. Effectively he is. And nobody elected him. A general election the only way out of this mess

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Comments

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    One thing is for fo' sho': whoever selected Hunt as CotE it certainly wasn't Liz Truss.

    So who was it?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,740
    In 10 years time Britain like Germany will be led by a Chancellor, the finance minister will be the First Lord of the Treasury, and there will be footnotes in history books about the 20th and early 21st centuries to explain what the titles meant back then.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,588
    Ishmael_Z said:

    One thing is for fo' sho': whoever selected Hunt as CotE it certainly wasn't Liz Truss.

    So who was it?

    Brady? (From his holiday retreat....?)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,224
    Campbell's absolutely correct. Jeremy might allow Liz to visit a few factories or attend a few international conferences, but from now on all policy will be vetted by him. Sorry, but we can't allow her anywhere near the levers of power after all that's happened.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,198
    EPG said:

    In 10 years time Britain like Germany will be led by a Chancellor, the finance minister will be the First Lord of the Treasury, and there will be footnotes in history books about the 20th and early 21st centuries to explain what the titles meant back then.

    Arguably we had something like this with New Labour where Gordon Brown ran domestic policy and Tony Blair ran foreign policy.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,720
    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,173
    Ishmael_Z said:

    One thing is for fo' sho': whoever selected Hunt as CotE it certainly wasn't Liz Truss.

    So who was it?

    Me.

    I suggested a list of three replacements for Kwasi.

    1) Lord Clarke of Rushcliffe

    2) George Osborne CH

    3) Jeremy Hunt.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,740
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    EPG said:

    In 10 years time Britain like Germany will be led by a Chancellor, the finance minister will be the First Lord of the Treasury, and there will be footnotes in history books about the 20th and early 21st centuries to explain what the titles meant back then.

    Arguably we had something like this with New Labour where Gordon Brown ran domestic policy and Tony Blair ran foreign policy.
    Gordon Brown also lived in No 10.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,251
    No, he isnt PM in all but name.

    Truss is now PM but all Cabinet Members will now feel they can act as they please, not just Hunt.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,173
    Anyhoo, next week I'm expecting a deluge of Tory MPs to tell Truss to go.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,198
    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Best to keep your fingers crossed until the morning after Hunt's budget-like event.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,720
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    One thing is for fo' sho': whoever selected Hunt as CotE it certainly wasn't Liz Truss.

    So who was it?

    Me.

    I suggested a list of three replacements for Kwasi.

    1) Lord Clarke of Rushcliffe

    2) George Osborne CH

    3) Jeremy Hunt.
    Are you running the country now? God help us...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's analogous to Peter Mandelson becoming First Secretary of State in 2008, and there wasn't an election until 2010.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,173
    MarqueeMark said:

    Hard to think of a Chancellor with a stronger position in office.

    He can't be sacked by Truss. Even if Truss goes, there is a strong case for her successor to keep Hunt in place if he has calmed the markets. I guess we get to see on Monday, when we have to face the pensions disaster without BoE support....

    Osborne.

    It is interesting that Truss and Hunt have agreed to follow the Cameron/Osborne approach when it comes to Number 10/11.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    On topic. No.

    It’s Labour and media spin, just to tease the Tories when they are down.

    I can prove it. How many in cabinet are at home with Hunt’s politics and economics, how many more at home with Truss politics and economics.

    So I see Hunt as a cuckoo in this cabinet nest, a cuckoo in this Conservative parliamentary party, definitely a cuckoo in this Tory party membership. That’s not power and influence.

    Power in the Tory government this morning is still Truss, but the policy now has slipped from her faith in economic liberalism to set UK free from what is holding it back, to what can save her skin and keep her in the job, buy her time to ride this out.

    The Tory Party today cannot tell us what it’s ethos is, they don’t agree anymore, they need to sort that out to be competitive in polls and general elections again.

    It’s no more complicated than that.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,588
    Stark_Dawning said:

    Campbell's absolutely correct. Jeremy might allow Liz to visit a few factories or attend a few international conferences, but from now on all policy will be vetted by him. Sorry, but we can't allow her anywhere near the levers of power after all that's happened.

    She still has the instinct to go off the rails and do stuff he'll not have approved in advance...just because, well "I'm Prime Minster."

    Just get rid.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,251
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    How can it possibly feel like a coup? A Chancellor has been replaced, end of, the rest of the talk is over excitement.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,198
    kle4 said:

    No, he isnt PM in all but name.

    Truss is now PM but all Cabinet Members will now feel they can act as they please, not just Hunt.

    Suella Braverman is not on the same hymn sheet.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,740
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's a coup by elected MPs against unelected party members, which seems fine democratically.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,440
    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,588
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Hard to think of a Chancellor with a stronger position in office.

    He can't be sacked by Truss. Even if Truss goes, there is a strong case for her successor to keep Hunt in place if he has calmed the markets. I guess we get to see on Monday, when we have to face the pensions disaster without BoE support....

    Osborne.

    It is interesting that Truss and Hunt have agreed to follow the Cameron/Osborne approach when it comes to Number 10/11.
    Osborne never had Cameron wearing a jerk chain like Hunt has with Truss.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,173
    Hunt has calmed the markets, if he quits then it will be carnage, so Truss cannot afford to lose him, he will do whatever he wants.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,345
    kle4 said:

    No, he isnt PM in all but name.

    Truss is now PM but all Cabinet Members will now feel they can act as they please, not just Hunt.

    Only for as long as they don't spend any money at all.

    And whilst a lot of them say "the state should do less", it's a rare Minister, even on the right, who applies that to their department.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    If he has been imposed by MPs that for me makes him more rather than less legitimate than being the choice of a gaggle of doubly incontinent zimmer frame drivers. And let's look very carefully at any suggestion emanating from that lying pig Campbell, whose auto-rehab is an enduring mystery to me given that his conduct in Downing Street was easily more corrupt than boris Johnson's.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,173
    MarqueeMark said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Hard to think of a Chancellor with a stronger position in office.

    He can't be sacked by Truss. Even if Truss goes, there is a strong case for her successor to keep Hunt in place if he has calmed the markets. I guess we get to see on Monday, when we have to face the pensions disaster without BoE support....

    Osborne.

    It is interesting that Truss and Hunt have agreed to follow the Cameron/Osborne approach when it comes to Number 10/11.
    Osborne never had Cameron wearing a jerk chain like Hunt has with Truss.
    Well....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,348
    For the first time in a long time I believe we have a grown up in what is now the most powerful political position in the country

    I wish Hunt all the best not just for the conservative party but for the country

    Truss is over, it is just the question of when but it won't be long
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,588
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Anyhoo, next week I'm expecting a deluge of Tory MPs to tell Truss to go.

    Is a deluge enough? Won't it need a tsunami?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,173
    MarqueeMark said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Anyhoo, next week I'm expecting a deluge of Tory MPs to tell Truss to go.

    Is a deluge enough? Won't it need a tsunami?
    I expect a number to approach, if not exceed 179.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,348
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Hunt has calmed the markets, if he quits then it will be carnage, so Truss cannot afford to lose him, he will do whatever he wants.

    She maybe ?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Diseases desperate grown
    By desperate appliance are relieved
    Or not at all.

    After truss, the tory membership should feel greatly relieved if offered the choice between disenfranchisement and euthanasia.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,348
    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,224
    edited October 2022
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    EPG said:

    In 10 years time Britain like Germany will be led by a Chancellor, the finance minister will be the First Lord of the Treasury, and there will be footnotes in history books about the 20th and early 21st centuries to explain what the titles meant back then.

    Arguably we had something like this with New Labour where Gordon Brown ran domestic policy and Tony Blair ran foreign policy.
    But Blair and Brown were political soulmates. This is a very different situation. The Tories realized that a bunch of rebellious, attention-seeking delinquents had somehow taken over and appointed a new Head Boy. One of the miscreants was subsequently expelled; the other, because her parents are deemed important, has been given dormitory detention.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,942
    edited October 2022
    I agree with Campbell (which is a first) once things have calmed down on the markets it will be time for an election to put the Tories out of their misery.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,198
    EPG said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's a coup by elected MPs against unelected party members, which seems fine democratically.
    Elected MPs did not appoint Hunt. If anything, it is a coup by Liz Truss against the unelected members who chose Liz Truss, so the coup metaphor does not really hold.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,348
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    EPG said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's a coup by elected MPs against unelected party members, which seems fine democratically.
    Elected MPs did not appoint Hunt. If anything, it is a coup by Liz Truss against the unelected members who chose Liz Truss, so the coup metaphor does not really hold.
    Was it Truss or maybe someone else telling her what to do

    Sir Graham Brady perhaps ?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    EPG said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's a coup by elected MPs against unelected party members, which seems fine democratically.
    Elected MPs did not appoint Hunt. If anything, it is a coup by Liz Truss against the unelected members who chose Liz Truss, so the coup metaphor does not really hold.
    I do not believe that sacking KK or appointing Hunt were decisions made by LT. Do you?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    For the first time in a long time I believe we have a grown up in what is now the most powerful political position in the country

    I wish Hunt all the best not just for the conservative party but for the country

    Truss is over, it is just the question of when but it won't be long

    I wonder how long it will be until we hear the accusation that the markets are 'misogynistic' and have 'unconscious bias'?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,041
    edited October 2022
    Ishmael_Z said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    EPG said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's a coup by elected MPs against unelected party members, which seems fine democratically.
    Elected MPs did not appoint Hunt. If anything, it is a coup by Liz Truss against the unelected members who chose Liz Truss, so the coup metaphor does not really hold.
    I do not believe that sacking KK or appointing Hunt were decisions made by LT. Do you?
    I would guess she was given a list of acceptable chancellors to the parliamentary party and she chose Hunt from four or five.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,440
    edited October 2022
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,348
    darkage said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    For the first time in a long time I believe we have a grown up in what is now the most powerful political position in the country

    I wish Hunt all the best not just for the conservative party but for the country

    Truss is over, it is just the question of when but it won't be long

    I wonder how long it will be until we hear the accusation that the markets are 'misogynistic' and have 'unconscious bias'?
    On this case entirely wrong - Truss has her chance and has been found out
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,719
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    While I agree that the shambles within the government means we should have a general election, I don't have any feeling that Hunt's ascent is at all like a coup. If anything, it has been backbench Tory MPs reasserting the primacy of the Commons against the attempt by Conservative Party members to impose a leader on them with policies that did not command their support.

    Those Tory MPs have put pressure on, and the result has been that Truss has been forced to bend to their will.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,740
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    EPG said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's a coup by elected MPs against unelected party members, which seems fine democratically.
    Elected MPs did not appoint Hunt. If anything, it is a coup by Liz Truss against the unelected members who chose Liz Truss, so the coup metaphor does not really hold.
    But she was obliged to do so by the fact that MPs control her destiny. She did not do so to defy them.
  • MPartridgeMPartridge Posts: 174
    Can someone explain how Truss actually stops being PM unless she resigns, isn't she safe for 1 year from VONC?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,348
    edited October 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
    Not if the 1922 amend the rules

    You and the ERG have an electoral death wish
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
    It's not impossible that they would support a coronation. Just because they might be able to stop it, it doesn't mean they would want to.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,942
    MPartridge said:

    Can someone explain how Truss actually stops being PM unless she resigns, isn't she safe for 1 year from VONC?

    Technically she's safe from the Tories removing her for a year... but Conservative Party rules are "flexible" shall we see lol ;)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,803
    MPartridge said:

    Can someone explain how Truss actually stops being PM unless she resigns, isn't she safe for 1 year from VONC?

    I think the only way to do it without a VONC in the Commons (ain't gonna happen) is for the 1922 Committee to change the rules.

    Have they had time to celebrate their centenary BTW?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,440
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
    Not if the 1922 amend the rules

    You and the ERG have an electoral death wish
    There is no way a majority of the 1922 could agree a change of rules so that you need 200 Tory MPs to nominate you to be a candidate. Which is the only way to keep Braverman say off the ballot and crown Hunt or Sunak with no members vote
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,224
    MPartridge said:

    Can someone explain how Truss actually stops being PM unless she resigns, isn't she safe for 1 year from VONC?

    I suppose the Tory rebels, if there were enough of them, could all resign the whip. Then, if the leader of this new faction could command the support of the House, wouldn't he become PM?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,448
    FPT: kinabalu said: "Release the kraken!"

    Already done: https://www.nhl.com/kraken

    But perhaps you want them to visit Britain?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,724
    Ishmael_Z said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    EPG said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's a coup by elected MPs against unelected party members, which seems fine democratically.
    Elected MPs did not appoint Hunt. If anything, it is a coup by Liz Truss against the unelected members who chose Liz Truss, so the coup metaphor does not really hold.
    I do not believe that sacking KK or appointing Hunt were decisions made by LT. Do you?
    As Saint Bob sang...

    Let them all pass all their dirty remarks (one Gove)
    There is one question I'd really love to ask (one heart)
    Is there a place for the hopeless sinners
    Who has hurt all mankind just to save his own beliefs?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    MPartridge said:

    Can someone explain how Truss actually stops being PM unless she resigns, isn't she safe for 1 year from VONC?

    That's the theory, another one is that it can be changed. NB that May and Johnson both won voncs anyway, and much good it did them. Truss looks psychologically very vulnerable, and there is no way she would stand up to a sustained bullying campaign by MPs.

    And of course Hunt has a gun to her head. He can resign, and she can surely not come back from that. To lose one Chancellor may be accounted misfortune ; to lose two...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,440
    edited October 2022
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
    Not if the 1922 amend the rules

    You and the ERG have an electoral death wish
    MWAdams got it right last thread.

    There is now little chance Hunt or Sunak would win the next election v Starmer or get close, indeed if they lose most of the Conservative core vote to Farage it might even be an extinction event for the Tories worse than 1997
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,588
    Looking at the shit that is still to come down the line, I really can't believe Labour actually want an election just yet.

    You really want to take control as people's mortgages go through the roof? As the housing market takes a dive? As inflation bites? Putting taxes up and cutting public sector services?

    "Be my guest...."
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,348
    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
    Not if the 1922 amend the rules

    You and the ERG have an electoral death wish
    There is no way a majority of the 1922 could agree a change of rules so that you need 200 Tory MPs to nominate you to be a candidate. Which is the only way to keep Braverman say off the ballot and crown Hunt or Sunak with no members vote
    There are always ways and means when mps are facing extinction levels of a future

    Braverman is exactly what the voters do not want in their government
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,588
    edited October 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
    Not if the 1922 amend the rules

    You and the ERG have an electoral death wish
    MWAdams got it right last thread.

    There is now little chance Hunt or Sunak would win the next election v Starmer or get close, indeed if they lose most of the Conservative core vote to Farage it might even be an extinction event for the Tories worse than 1997
    Their fortunes are still far, far brighter than under Truss.

    Which is what counts. Sticking with Truss signifies the death of all hope.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    I can't help noting as a general observation that George Osborne has been close to Jeremy Hunt since God was a boy.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,348
    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
    Not if the 1922 amend the rules

    You and the ERG have an electoral death wish
    MWAdams got it right last thread.

    There is now little chance Hunt or Sunak would win the next election v Starmer or get close, indeed if they lose most of the Conservative core vote to Farage it might even be an extinction event for the Tories worse than 1997
    Just follow your calling and join Farage as you are intent on the destruction of the conservative party for narrow bigoted ideology just like Corbynites
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,016
    DougSeal said:

    MPartridge said:

    Can someone explain how Truss actually stops being PM unless she resigns, isn't she safe for 1 year from VONC?

    I think the only way to do it without a VONC in the Commons (ain't gonna happen) is for the 1922 Committee to change the rules.

    Have they had time to celebrate their centenary BTW?
    The 1922 committee only manages the selection of the leader of the Conservative Party. Under our system only the King can ask the Prime Minister to step down - and he has to act on advice from....his Prime Minister. Boris Johnson's last act was to advise the Queen that she should ask Liz Truss to form a government.

    If Truss doesn't want to go, only a vote of no confidence in the HoC can force her out.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,588
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Anyhoo, next week I'm expecting a deluge of Tory MPs to tell Truss to go.

    Is a deluge enough? Won't it need a tsunami?
    I expect a number to approach, if not exceed 179.
    Sunak supporters + Mordaunt supporters+ buyer's remorse Truss supporters should get you to well over 200.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,942
    edited October 2022
    MarqueeMark said:

    Looking at the shit that is still to come down the line, I really can't believe Labour actually want an election just yet.

    You really want to take control as people's mortgages go through the roof? As the housing market takes a dive? As inflation bites? Putting taxes up and cutting public sector services?

    "Be my guest...."

    It would be in the Conservatives interests to leave office very soon.

    If they can get Labours poll lead down to around 10% they should defintely go for it as it will be as good as it gets for the Conservatives IMO.

    They also need to get the election out of the way before Farage can mobilize REFORM or whatever party he's intending to set up.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,767
    williamglenn said:

    Interesting view from a former Labour councillor:

    @ChristabelCoops
    Possibly unpopular opinion, but Brexit did not cause Truss. She's actually the first *post* Brexit PM and that's what undid her. Her ideology was a shift away from the values/Brexit divide and back to a political debate around tax, spending and the size and role of the state.

    Hence her big attempt to create an electorally advantageous "us and them" dividing line was based on the supposed existence of an "anti-growth coalition" which opposed her economic plans, rather than focusing on Brexit divisions, "woke" or other cultural issues.

    https://twitter.com/ChristabelCoops/status/1581219402707443712

    This is what I've been saying for weeks.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    *🐎 one race into the new jump season and I am unbeaten 😊
  • ihuntihunt Posts: 146
    Stark_Dawning said:

    Campbell's absolutely correct. Jeremy might allow Liz to visit a few factories or attend a few international conferences, but from now on all policy will be vetted by him. Sorry, but we can't allow her anywhere near the levers of power after all that's happened.

    Yes keep Truss as a figurehead and let her out as little as possible. Meanwhile flood the airwaves with Hunt so he is seen as the defacto PM.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    Cookie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Interesting view from a former Labour councillor:

    @ChristabelCoops
    Possibly unpopular opinion, but Brexit did not cause Truss. She's actually the first *post* Brexit PM and that's what undid her. Her ideology was a shift away from the values/Brexit divide and back to a political debate around tax, spending and the size and role of the state.

    Hence her big attempt to create an electorally advantageous "us and them" dividing line was based on the supposed existence of an "anti-growth coalition" which opposed her economic plans, rather than focusing on Brexit divisions, "woke" or other cultural issues.

    https://twitter.com/ChristabelCoops/status/1581219402707443712

    This is what I've been saying for weeks.
    And me too. I’ve been saying for weeks, Thatcher, Sherman, etc we’re a laughing stock in mid 70s with little support. Because it’s true.

    Just because Boris, Tories, and the voters prefer the post Brexit fallacy of levelling up - and Truss sees levelling up is just pretend the ancient mismatch in scale and wealth between London and the secondary cities their regions can ever be levelled, Doesn’t mean Truss is wrong. Far from it.

    Likewise, if Truss feels Planning laws and other structural rigidities keep Britain poorer than it should be, and everyone disagrees, it doesn’t mean she is wrong.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,518
    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
    Not if the 1922 amend the rules

    You and the ERG have an electoral death wish
    MWAdams got it right last thread.

    There is now little chance Hunt or Sunak would win the next election v Starmer or get close, indeed if they lose most of the Conservative core vote to Farage it might even be an extinction event for the Tories worse than 1997
    Kwarteng and Truss’ fiscal event trashed the economy and their popularity plummeted. As per tweet in last PB thread, Farage praised that same mini-budget to high heaven. Farage is a Trussite, or Truss is a Faragist. Most of the Conservative vote has already rejected Truss: why would they go for Farage, offering the same thing, instead?
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,683
    Icarus said:

    DougSeal said:

    MPartridge said:

    Can someone explain how Truss actually stops being PM unless she resigns, isn't she safe for 1 year from VONC?

    I think the only way to do it without a VONC in the Commons (ain't gonna happen) is for the 1922 Committee to change the rules.

    Have they had time to celebrate their centenary BTW?
    The 1922 committee only manages the selection of the leader of the Conservative Party. Under our system only the King can ask the Prime Minister to step down - and he has to act on advice from....his Prime Minister. Boris Johnson's last act was to advise the Queen that she should ask Liz Truss to form a government.

    If Truss doesn't want to go, only a vote of no confidence in the HoC can force her out.

    Technically true, but there are plenty of precedents where Tory PMs were eased out of Downing Street because they had lost the confidence of the parliamentary party. They may have been old (Churchill) or sick (Chamberlain, Eden, Macmillan) but the underlying reason was lack of support. Of course the system for replacing them was much more efficient in those halcyon days.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,442
    GIN1138 said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Looking at the shit that is still to come down the line, I really can't believe Labour actually want an election just yet.

    You really want to take control as people's mortgages go through the roof? As the housing market takes a dive? As inflation bites? Putting taxes up and cutting public sector services?

    "Be my guest...."

    It would be in the Conservatives interests to leave office very soon.

    If they can get Labours poll lead down to around 10% they should defintely go for it as it will be as good as it gets for the Conservatives IMO.

    They also need to get the election out of the way before Farage can mobilize REFORM or whatever party he's intending to set up.
    You and @MarqueeMark may be correct. Although I suspect the narrative that it is all Labour's fault would have worked like clockwork before the omnishambles non-budget,but less so now

    My own error in 2010 was believing that the post-crash election was the one to lose for the reasons you suggest, but here we are nearly 13 years later still with an inch-perfect Conservative Government.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,478
    One test of whether Hunt is PM or not is if he can stop this nonsense...




  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Icarus said:

    DougSeal said:

    MPartridge said:

    Can someone explain how Truss actually stops being PM unless she resigns, isn't she safe for 1 year from VONC?

    I think the only way to do it without a VONC in the Commons (ain't gonna happen) is for the 1922 Committee to change the rules.

    Have they had time to celebrate their centenary BTW?
    The 1922 committee only manages the selection of the leader of the Conservative Party. Under our system only the King can ask the Prime Minister to step down - and he has to act on advice from....his Prime Minister. Boris Johnson's last act was to advise the Queen that she should ask Liz Truss to form a government.

    If Truss doesn't want to go, only a vote of no confidence in the HoC can force her out.

    Palpably false. Was Johnson forced out? Yes. By a VONC? No.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,440
    edited October 2022
    bondegezou said:

    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Hunt standing alone in front of the No.10 door as the BBC politics banner image. Accident or deliberate choice I wonder.


    That does not look like a man who is going to let Rishi weasel his way past on the inside rail. Feeling a massive calm about my lay of Sunak next PM.
    Hunt knows neither he nor Sunak can win a membership vote, so being power behind the throne as Chancellor while keeping Truss as his puppet PM suits him fine
    Simple - keep it away from the idiotic members
    No chance of a coronation for them either. Wallace, Braverman, Badenoch etc could easily find the 20 Tory MPs to nominate them from the ERG to be valid leadership candidates
    Not if the 1922 amend the rules

    You and the ERG have an electoral death wish
    MWAdams got it right last thread.

    There is now little chance Hunt or Sunak would win the next election v Starmer or get close, indeed if they lose most of the Conservative core vote to Farage it might even be an extinction event for the Tories worse than 1997
    Kwarteng and Truss’ fiscal event trashed the economy and their popularity plummeted. As per tweet in last PB thread, Farage praised that same mini-budget to high heaven. Farage is a Trussite, or Truss is a Faragist. Most of the Conservative vote has already rejected Truss: why would they go for Farage, offering the same thing, instead?
    No, at least half or more of the 2019 Tory vote was Tory still in the polls after the mini budget. Lose most of that to Farage while failing to regain any of the 2019 Conservative voters now voting for Starmer Labour then as I said it would be an extinction level event for the Tories
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    ihunt said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Campbell's absolutely correct. Jeremy might allow Liz to visit a few factories or attend a few international conferences, but from now on all policy will be vetted by him. Sorry, but we can't allow her anywhere near the levers of power after all that's happened.

    Yes keep Truss as a figurehead and let her out as little as possible. Meanwhile flood the airwaves with Hunt so he is seen as the defacto PM.
    I disagree with both of you with a complete opposite take -

    It’s Just media spin, just to tease the Tories when they are down, I say don’t fall for it.

    I can prove it. How many in cabinet are at home with Hunt’s politics and economics, how many more at home with Truss politics and economics.

    So I see Hunt as a cuckoo in this cabinet nest, a cuckoo in this Conservative parliamentary party, definitely a cuckoo in this Tory party membership. That’s not power and influence.

    Power in the Tory government this morning is still Truss, but the policy now has slipped from her faith in economic liberalism to set UK free from what is holding it back, to what can save her skin and keep her in the job, buy her time to ride this out.

    The Tory Party today cannot tell us what it’s ethos is, they don’t agree anymore, they need to sort that out to be competitive in polls and general elections again.

    It’s no more complicated than that. So where have I got it wrong?
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 775
    edited October 2022
    Apologies if already mentioned but it seems The Mail has turned on Liz. I have just read on Mailonline an extraordinary opinion piece which seems to be a mea culpa for the Mail backing Liz for leadership. It still says her budget's instincts were right but it was poorly presented and she and Kwasi should have foreseen its impact on mortgage rates.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,221
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Hunt has calmed the markets, if he quits then it will be carnage, so Truss cannot afford to lose him, he will do whatever he wants.

    What happens if Monday comes and the markets aren’t calmed?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,023
    MoonRabbit said:

    Cookie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Interesting view from a former Labour councillor:

    @ChristabelCoops
    Possibly unpopular opinion, but Brexit did not cause Truss. She's actually the first *post* Brexit PM and that's what undid her. Her ideology was a shift away from the values/Brexit divide and back to a political debate around tax, spending and the size and role of the state.

    Hence her big attempt to create an electorally advantageous "us and them" dividing line was based on the supposed existence of an "anti-growth coalition" which opposed her economic plans, rather than focusing on Brexit divisions, "woke" or other cultural issues.

    https://twitter.com/ChristabelCoops/status/1581219402707443712

    This is what I've been saying for weeks.
    And me too. I’ve been saying for weeks, Thatcher, Sherman, etc we’re a laughing stock in mid 70s with little support. Because it’s true.

    Just because Boris, Tories, and the voters prefer the post Brexit fallacy of levelling up - and Truss sees levelling up is just pretend the ancient mismatch in scale and wealth between London and the secondary cities their regions can ever be levelled, Doesn’t mean Truss is wrong. Far from it.

    Likewise, if Truss feels Planning laws and other structural rigidities keep Britain poorer than it should be, and everyone disagrees, it doesn’t mean she is wrong.
    Then, as a politician, it was her duty to make and win these arguments first.

    Far too many were dogmatic and clearly not properly thought through.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    SandraMc said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but it seems The Mail has turned on Liz. I have just read on Mailonline an extraordinary opinion piece which seems to be a mea culpa for the Mail backing Liz for leadership. It still says her budget's instincts were right but it was poorly presented and she and Kwasi should have foreseen its impact on mortgage rates.

    Based on yesterdays front page, after a few days doing its best to ignore politics was the big story, the mail has given up on Truss.

    In hindsight they loved her policy position, quite right for mail to prefer that than Rishi and Mourdant, but they could never have believed Truss herself was any good at communicating.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,442
    Scott_xP said:

    One test of whether Hunt is PM or not is if he can stop this nonsense...




    There was talk on here the other day of Libertarian Health Secretary smoker Therese Coffey repealing the Health Act 2006. How about fags on prescription to promote the mental health of the nation?

    Fighting through nicotine laced clouds would also piss off woke, nanny-state, Remainer scum like me, too.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    Casino_Royale said:

    MoonRabbit said:

    Cookie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Interesting view from a former Labour councillor:

    @ChristabelCoops
    Possibly unpopular opinion, but Brexit did not cause Truss. She's actually the first *post* Brexit PM and that's what undid her. Her ideology was a shift away from the values/Brexit divide and back to a political debate around tax, spending and the size and role of the state.

    Hence her big attempt to create an electorally advantageous "us and them" dividing line was based on the supposed existence of an "anti-growth coalition" which opposed her economic plans, rather than focusing on Brexit divisions, "woke" or other cultural issues.

    https://twitter.com/ChristabelCoops/status/1581219402707443712

    This is what I've been saying for weeks.
    And me too. I’ve been saying for weeks, Thatcher, Sherman, etc we’re a laughing stock in mid 70s with little support. Because it’s true.

    Just because Boris, Tories, and the voters prefer the post Brexit fallacy of levelling up - and Truss sees levelling up is just pretend the ancient mismatch in scale and wealth between London and the secondary cities their regions can ever be levelled, Doesn’t mean Truss is wrong. Far from it.

    Likewise, if Truss feels Planning laws and other structural rigidities keep Britain poorer than it should be, and everyone disagrees, it doesn’t mean she is wrong.
    Then, as a politician, it was her duty to make and win these arguments first.

    Far too many were dogmatic and clearly not properly thought through.
    My prediction is Truss goes down, well.. becuase she is shit - but Trussism lives on. Because a lot of it both makes sense, but also matches the Tory ethos rather perfectly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,478
    Mexicanpete said:

    There was talk on here the other day of Libertarian Health Secretary smoker Therese Coffey repealing the Health Act 2006. How about fags on prescription to promote the mental health of the nation?

    Fighting through nicotine laced clouds would also piss off woke, nanny-state, Remainer scum like me, too.

    Doctors are part of the AGC...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,023
    MoonRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MoonRabbit said:

    Cookie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Interesting view from a former Labour councillor:

    @ChristabelCoops
    Possibly unpopular opinion, but Brexit did not cause Truss. She's actually the first *post* Brexit PM and that's what undid her. Her ideology was a shift away from the values/Brexit divide and back to a political debate around tax, spending and the size and role of the state.

    Hence her big attempt to create an electorally advantageous "us and them" dividing line was based on the supposed existence of an "anti-growth coalition" which opposed her economic plans, rather than focusing on Brexit divisions, "woke" or other cultural issues.

    https://twitter.com/ChristabelCoops/status/1581219402707443712

    This is what I've been saying for weeks.
    And me too. I’ve been saying for weeks, Thatcher, Sherman, etc we’re a laughing stock in mid 70s with little support. Because it’s true.

    Just because Boris, Tories, and the voters prefer the post Brexit fallacy of levelling up - and Truss sees levelling up is just pretend the ancient mismatch in scale and wealth between London and the secondary cities their regions can ever be levelled, Doesn’t mean Truss is wrong. Far from it.

    Likewise, if Truss feels Planning laws and other structural rigidities keep Britain poorer than it should be, and everyone disagrees, it doesn’t mean she is wrong.
    Then, as a politician, it was her duty to make and win these arguments first.

    Far too many were dogmatic and clearly not properly thought through.
    My prediction is Truss goes down, well.. becuase she is shit - but Trussism lives on. Because a lot of it both makes sense, but also matches the Tory ethos rather perfectly.
    I'm astonished at how poor she's been.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    Fairliered said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Hunt has calmed the markets, if he quits then it will be carnage, so Truss cannot afford to lose him, he will do whatever he wants.

    What happens if Monday comes and the markets aren’t calmed?
    The way this usually happens is there can be two weeks of calm - people say the markets have been calmed, but then it all erupts again.

    Obviously you all know my theory - £400bn of Rishi splaffing (and wasting a lot) to get us through covid has maxxed out the credit - now they want to (unnecessarily, needlessly) try to get another £200bn more borrowing - the markets won’t calm till that plan is dead.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,989
    Casino_Royale said:

    kjh said:

    Scott_xP said:

    One test of whether Hunt is PM or not is if he can stop this nonsense...




    Good grief that is appalling. Sounds like she has been dishing out antibiotics to people with viruses, which is of no benefit at all and a fat lot of help re minimising antibiotic resistance. Every time she opens her mouth rubbish seems to come out.
    It's astonishing how many MPs are thick and shit.
    Not really, it's a consequence of giving the power to choose PPCs in safe seats to a handful of kooks crazy enough to join a political party.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    Casino_Royale said:

    MoonRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MoonRabbit said:

    Cookie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Interesting view from a former Labour councillor:

    @ChristabelCoops
    Possibly unpopular opinion, but Brexit did not cause Truss. She's actually the first *post* Brexit PM and that's what undid her. Her ideology was a shift away from the values/Brexit divide and back to a political debate around tax, spending and the size and role of the state.

    Hence her big attempt to create an electorally advantageous "us and them" dividing line was based on the supposed existence of an "anti-growth coalition" which opposed her economic plans, rather than focusing on Brexit divisions, "woke" or other cultural issues.

    https://twitter.com/ChristabelCoops/status/1581219402707443712

    This is what I've been saying for weeks.
    And me too. I’ve been saying for weeks, Thatcher, Sherman, etc we’re a laughing stock in mid 70s with little support. Because it’s true.

    Just because Boris, Tories, and the voters prefer the post Brexit fallacy of levelling up - and Truss sees levelling up is just pretend the ancient mismatch in scale and wealth between London and the secondary cities their regions can ever be levelled, Doesn’t mean Truss is wrong. Far from it.

    Likewise, if Truss feels Planning laws and other structural rigidities keep Britain poorer than it should be, and everyone disagrees, it doesn’t mean she is wrong.
    Then, as a politician, it was her duty to make and win these arguments first.

    Far too many were dogmatic and clearly not properly thought through.
    My prediction is Truss goes down, well.. becuase she is shit - but Trussism lives on. Because a lot of it both makes sense, but also matches the Tory ethos rather perfectly.
    I'm astonished at how poor she's been.
    A lot of us arn’t.

    She got lost in her own Launch For Primeminister Event. A lot of people (she had support back in those days) said she didn’t.

    She doesn’t have presentation skills, it’s been obvious for sometime.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,080
    williamglenn said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's analogous to Peter Mandelson becoming First Secretary of State in 2008, and there wasn't an election until 2010.
    Exactly, and, in fairness, that was one of the better parts of the Labour government, certainly from about 2001 onwards. Mandelson knew how to get things done, to organise things, to stamp very hard on the toes of those wanting to make mischief and to make decisions. That put him miles ahead of Brown as de facto PM. I suspect we will now see something similar, hopefully with similar results.

    Would still like to offload some of the nutters Truss brought in with her though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,588
    Of course, it might be down to Boris to have a quiet conversation with Liz and tell her

    "It's over. Take it from someone who knows about this stuff. There is no coming back. And there's only pain ahead until you accept that."
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,478
    Kwasi Kwarteng was not fighting “orthodoxy”. He was fighting maths. The whole project was/is a fantasy. Don’t give it the patina of a revolution. It just didn’t add up. It was post-truth, just like the claims of Brexit uplands. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/15/kwasi-kwarteng-how-ex-chancellors-fate-was-sealed-by-imf-orthodoxy-he-fought-against?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,080
    MoonRabbit said:

    Fairliered said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Hunt has calmed the markets, if he quits then it will be carnage, so Truss cannot afford to lose him, he will do whatever he wants.

    What happens if Monday comes and the markets aren’t calmed?
    The way this usually happens is there can be two weeks of calm - people say the markets have been calmed, but then it all erupts again.

    Obviously you all know my theory - £400bn of Rishi splaffing (and wasting a lot) to get us through covid has maxxed out the credit - now they want to (unnecessarily, needlessly) try to get another £200bn more borrowing - the markets won’t calm till that plan is dead.
    Or the £200bn becomes more like £20bn. Everything now turns on the future price of gas.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,117
    MoonRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MoonRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MoonRabbit said:

    Cookie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Interesting view from a former Labour councillor:

    @ChristabelCoops
    Possibly unpopular opinion, but Brexit did not cause Truss. She's actually the first *post* Brexit PM and that's what undid her. Her ideology was a shift away from the values/Brexit divide and back to a political debate around tax, spending and the size and role of the state.

    Hence her big attempt to create an electorally advantageous "us and them" dividing line was based on the supposed existence of an "anti-growth coalition" which opposed her economic plans, rather than focusing on Brexit divisions, "woke" or other cultural issues.

    https://twitter.com/ChristabelCoops/status/1581219402707443712

    This is what I've been saying for weeks.
    And me too. I’ve been saying for weeks, Thatcher, Sherman, etc we’re a laughing stock in mid 70s with little support. Because it’s true.

    Just because Boris, Tories, and the voters prefer the post Brexit fallacy of levelling up - and Truss sees levelling up is just pretend the ancient mismatch in scale and wealth between London and the secondary cities their regions can ever be levelled, Doesn’t mean Truss is wrong. Far from it.

    Likewise, if Truss feels Planning laws and other structural rigidities keep Britain poorer than it should be, and everyone disagrees, it doesn’t mean she is wrong.
    Then, as a politician, it was her duty to make and win these arguments first.

    Far too many were dogmatic and clearly not properly thought through.
    My prediction is Truss goes down, well.. becuase she is shit - but Trussism lives on. Because a lot of it both makes sense, but also matches the Tory ethos rather perfectly.
    I'm astonished at how poor she's been.
    A lot of us arn’t.

    She got lost in her own Launch For Primeminister Event. A lot of people (she had support back in those days) said she didn’t.

    She doesn’t have presentation skills, it’s been obvious for sometime.
    You’ve only got to go back to some of her performances - pork markets, dogs barking at drones to deter them - etc etc to see it was exactly a science to predict her being awful.

    MPs who championed her on the basis she was good “behind the scenes” obviously have no clue about the need for a good communicator nowadays
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,016
    Casino_Royale said:

    kjh said:

    Scott_xP said:

    One test of whether Hunt is PM or not is if he can stop this nonsense...




    Good grief that is appalling. Sounds like she has been dishing out antibiotics to people with viruses, which is of no benefit at all and a fat lot of help re minimising antibiotic resistance. Every time she opens her mouth rubbish seems to come out.
    It's astonishing how many MPs are thick and shit.
    I just told my wife (a doctor). She put her head in her hands and come out with a rant containing the following list of words, ludicrous, they are just stupid, ridiculous, they don't know what they are doing, etc, etc. Several repeated several times.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,683
    I wonder if Truss is planning a reshuffle? Or, rather, the grown-ups who seem to be running the show at the moment. There's plenty of scope for a few wise old heads to steady the ship while the chancellor pours balm the markets. The rapid departure of Coffey would obviously be a step in the right direction. Ditto Braverman and Mogg. It might begin to look more like a unity government than an obscure ideological faction. Hunt is a step in the right direction but there's still some way to go.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Alphabet_Soup said:

    Icarus said:

    DougSeal said:

    MPartridge said:

    Can someone explain how Truss actually stops being PM unless she resigns, isn't she safe for 1 year from VONC?

    I think the only way to do it without a VONC in the Commons (ain't gonna happen) is for the 1922 Committee to change the rules.

    Have they had time to celebrate their centenary BTW?
    The 1922 committee only manages the selection of the leader of the Conservative Party. Under our system only the King can ask the Prime Minister to step down - and he has to act on advice from....his Prime Minister. Boris Johnson's last act was to advise the Queen that she should ask Liz Truss to form a government.

    If Truss doesn't want to go, only a vote of no confidence in the HoC can force her out.

    Technically true, but there are plenty of precedents where Tory PMs were eased out of Downing Street because they had lost the confidence of the parliamentary party. They may have been old (Churchill) or sick (Chamberlain, Eden, Macmillan) but the underlying reason was lack of support. Of course the system for replacing them was much more efficient in those halcyon days.
    Pungent PB pundit alert - Neville Chamberlain was NOT sick (or known to be, by himself or others) in May 1940. And he had NOT lost the confidence of majority of "National" MPs, just a (as it turned out) decisive minority.

    And do NOT think the notion of a groundswell of non-confidence by Tory parliamentary party explains the departures of Churchill, Eden or Macmillan. Much more top down than bottom up process. With personal decision to go by each being major factor.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,016
    Tres said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    kjh said:

    Scott_xP said:

    One test of whether Hunt is PM or not is if he can stop this nonsense...




    Good grief that is appalling. Sounds like she has been dishing out antibiotics to people with viruses, which is of no benefit at all and a fat lot of help re minimising antibiotic resistance. Every time she opens her mouth rubbish seems to come out.
    It's astonishing how many MPs are thick and shit.
    Not really, it's a consequence of giving the power to choose PPCs in safe seats to a handful of kooks crazy enough to join a political party.
    I must admit that when I meet activists of all parties most do come over as a bit weird. And then I have a few thoughts about myself...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,821
    Ishmael_Z said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    EPG said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    I've got to say, while Hunt is obviously a far better person to be de facto PM than Truss, this feels kind of like a coup. Nobody elected him, not even the batshit crazies of the Tory membership. Let's have an election so the British people can decide who leads us.

    It's a coup by elected MPs against unelected party members, which seems fine democratically.
    Elected MPs did not appoint Hunt. If anything, it is a coup by Liz Truss against the unelected members who chose Liz Truss, so the coup metaphor does not really hold.
    I do not believe that sacking KK or appointing Hunt were decisions made by LT. Do you?
    A very astute post. I really doesn't make sense from any prism that Truss might have been looking through including for her own survival.

    Quite baffling Holmes
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Lowering taxes to promote growth when inflation is low seems a lot more logical than doing that with rampant inflation .

    Trussonomics was essentially to throw petrol onto a fire and hope the fire brigade would turn up in time .
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